Author Topic: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?  (Read 265005 times)

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Offline Navalgazer

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2009, 09:57:33 »
For those interested, Chicoutimi should be arriving at Victoria within the next few days. The following link shows her being transferred out of Halifax on board the Hern.

www.shipspotting.com/search.php?query=hmcs+chicoutimi&action=results

Offline Sub-normal

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2009, 11:21:34 »
For those that are interested Chicoutimi is firmly on the Ground in Esquimalt  (quite literally) for those interested in Pics the Times Colonist has a good Photo Gallery of the off load.

http://www.timescolonist.com/Photo+gallery+HMCS+Chicoutimi+arrives+refit+Esquimalt/1570366/story.html

Offline gwp

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2009, 22:46:20 »
When people talk about why we bought 2nd hand subs, I respond that we always have done so. Hell even BC bought 2nd hand subs from Chile!
Missinformation - CC1 and CC2 were brand new boats, built for Chile but Chile was not able to meet the payment so B.C. picked them up from the Seattle shipyard on the eve of the First World War.

http://www.navalandmilitarymuseum.org/resource_pages/coastal_defence/subs.html
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 22:49:02 by gwp »

Offline Sailorwest

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2009, 09:51:23 »
For those that are interested Chicoutimi is firmly on the Ground in Esquimalt  (quite literally) for those interested in Pics the Times Colonist has a good Photo Gallery of the off load.

http://www.timescolonist.com/Photo+gallery+HMCS+Chicoutimi+arrives+refit+Esquimalt/1570366/story.html
That is kind of interesting. They placed CHICOUTIMI on the jetty instead of into the drydock. Will they need to bring back the Hern, once the refit/repairs are complete in order to get the boat into the water? I suppose VICTORIA is still in the Esquimalt drydock and Vic Ships was not prepared to tie up their drydock for two years.

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2009, 10:02:41 »
Perhaps they are betting on a rise in sea level due to "Climate Change", it's an indication of how long they expect it to be in refit!    >:D




Offline Sailorwest

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2009, 10:17:35 »
Perhaps they are betting on a rise in sea level due to "Climate Change", it's an indication of how long they expect it to be in refit!    >:D
I had never thought of that. I guess that would be representative of West Coast thinking.  ;D

Offline Navalgazer

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2009, 02:15:24 »
In 2012, when or if Chicoutimi is ready to get wet again, Vic Shipyards will most likely launch using a floating drydock, my guess would be from Vancouver Shipyards. PS sorry about my spelling mistake; the Hern is actually Tern.

Offline seadragon

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2009, 22:23:57 »
I am in 2nd term in the METTP at Marine Institute, CFNES St. John's.  A few of us are interested in becoming submariners and, due to crew requirements, we might have a chance of going directly to subs when we graduate in 2010.  Any opinions on this?  Any helpful hints for us aspiring submariners?  Are there plans for the subs to do long deplyments to Europe/Asia like the frigates do?

Offline NavyShooter

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2009, 13:47:29 »
Learn well, study hard, and be ready to spend a LOT of time learning how to be a submariner.  They are a special breed. 

Also, learn not to shower.

Note, I am not a submariner, but have many that I count as friends.  (Until they start counting me as a "Skimmer puke target".)

NS
Insert disclaimer statement here....

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Offline seadragon

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2009, 12:23:33 »
Thanks for the info Navyshooter.  Are there any current submariners that can enlighten me with more info?

Offline drunknsubmrnr

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2009, 21:37:24 »
I'm not current but here's my $0.02:

The technician trades normally have a LOT of responsibility at a junior rank on boats, because there are very few people in their trades on the boats. On top of that, they spend most of their time qualifying, rather than actually working in their trades.

That means they have to be at their absolute best when they hit the boat, and there's no room for the normal tech learning curve when getting out of school. The only guys I saw going straight from NCSTTP or METTP to the boat ended up getting a rep for being screw-ups when they really weren't any worse than everybody else was when they first hit the fleet.

My advice is to go to a ship for a couple of years and then go boats, if thats possible. Not only will you do better once you get to the boats, you'll know how bad the other half is and how lucky you are.  :D

Offline seadragon

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2009, 16:59:40 »
Thank you very much for the info, that seemed to be the best path to me.  One of my classmates wants to go directly in.  We are both learing what we can before we leave the school and join the fleet.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2011, 09:42:10 »
Excerpt from major round-up piece at Defense Industry Daily:

Sub Fleet Creating Canadian Controversies
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/sub-support-contract-creating-canadian-controversy-04563/

Quote
...
Updates and Related News

Feb 23/11: A CBC News access to information request reveals that Canada spent C$ 45 million to repairs to HMCS Windsor alone in 2010, almost 3x the C$ 17 million budget.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2011/02/23/ns-submarine-windsor-refit-cost.html
The refit which started in 2007 and was supposed to be done in 2009, bow looks like 2013 at the earliest. As any urban sweller knows, that’s a real challenge. The documents also show that HMCS Victoria has only been at sea for 100 days since its 2000 delivery. CBC adds that:

“It appears that every system on the British-built submarine has major problems, according to the documents, including bad welds in the hull, broken torpedo tubes, a faulty rudder and tiles on the side of the sub that continually fall off…. Because [HMCS Windsor] has been in drydock in Halifax for so long, it has become a bird sanctuary. The navy spent thousands of dollars just trying to keep the pigeons from roosting in the vessel.”

Dec 23/10: Canada’s DND confirms to Post Media that HMCS Victoria’s delivery date following its C$ 195 million refit in Esquimalt, BC has been delayed again, to mid-2011:

“According to the Defence Department, the Victoria is the first of the submarines of its class to undergo such a retrofit and that parts, infrastructure and technical expertise initially were lacking…. The valuable lessons learned from HMCS Victoria have proven useful and are being applied to other vessels in the class.”

That would put the submarine in dry dock for about 6 years, and make its re-entry into service about 2 years late. Montreal Gazette...
http://www.canada.com/news/More+delays+HMCS+Victoria+retrofit/4021222/story.html

Mark
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Offline drunknsubmrnr

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2011, 08:12:53 »
Dive certs on those boats should expire over the next 10 years as well.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2011, 10:00:06 »
Dive certs on those boats should expire over the next 10 years as well.

Well, that's interesting!

I wonder if the Bozos (sorry, I mean "the powers that be") in Ottawa understand:

1) What losing your dive cert means for submarines (you can't "extend" it through a life-extension program forever - like they do surface ships);
2) The amount of time required to build a new submarine; and,
3) the logical connection that should exist between these two facts.

If so, we are almost already late.


Offline medicineman

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2011, 12:45:06 »
Makes you wonder why we didn't try to buy in with the RAN's build to order plan for new boats.

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Offline Lex Parsimoniae

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2011, 21:53:45 »
Dive certs on those boats should expire over the next 10 years as well.
Reference?

Offline Lex Parsimoniae

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2011, 22:08:30 »
Well, that's interesting!

I wonder if the Bozos (sorry, I mean "the powers that be") in Ottawa understand:

1) What losing your dive cert means for submarines (you can't "extend" it through a life-extension program forever - like they do surface ships);
2) The amount of time required to build a new submarine; and,
3) the logical connection that should exist between these two facts.

If so, we are almost already late.
While your posts are usually spot-on, respectfully you're totally wrong on point 1 and ergo point 3.  As an example, the Type 206A are being extended past 40+ years with some fairly minor refits.

I appreciate that your service was in the reserves but do you really think that experienced regular force sailors suddenly become "bozos" upon receipt of a posting signal to MSHQ?

Offline drunknsubmrnr

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2011, 22:33:10 »
The dive cert is based on a certain definition of SUBSAFE. If that definition changes (ie changing standards for safe operation) the dive cert can be extended. The Upholders original dive cert expires in the early 2020's after 30 years from their original build dates. That dates from the original Upholder class briefings from the late 90's.

The question is on whether changing the standards for SUBSAFE is a good idea.


Offline Lex Parsimoniae

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2011, 22:53:33 »
The dive cert is based on a certain definition of SUBSAFE. If that definition changes (ie changing standards for safe operation) the dive cert can be extended. The Upholders original dive cert expires in the early 2020's after 30 years from their original build dates. That dates from the original Upholder class briefings from the late 90's.

The question is on whether changing the standards for SUBSAFE is a good idea.
LOL!  I was there for the SCLE briefings and that was never briefed.  It wasn't true then and isn't now.  Here is an official CF reference that states the Victoria Class "are expected to operate into the 2030s" - either provide a verifiable reference for your claims or stay in your lane.

Offline drunknsubmrnr

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2011, 08:13:01 »
You were at the main and JR briefings? Somehow I doubt that.

The question on dive certs was asked at the JR's briefing specifically because the boats were bought used. There was a general statement given in reply that the boats dive certs expired in the early 2020's. IIRC the reply was given by one of the GTO's, not the skimmer 3-ringer.

The Upholders were bought by SCLE, not CASAP. They were intended at the time to be a stop-gap measure with compromises in quality and quantity, until we could get boats that would meet requirements.

That plan has apparently changed. Fair enough, I doubt that the usage matched the original dive cert predictions. I'm sure that the current SUBSAFE program took that into account with the dive cert extension.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2011, 09:07:03 »
Drunksubmariner is correct: It is the SUBSAFE generated figure that ultimately counts, not the wishes of those writing backgrounders for the DND website, as informed as they may be.

SUBSAFE is a complex set of formulas that takes into account all sorts of factor (expected number of dives, duration, depth, etc.) to derive a point were engineers cannot give a guarantee that the chances of the hull crushing in are below a set figure (one chance in "x" or something). I have never heard of a British diesel submarine that exceeded 30 years of certification and generally, the Brits do not use them for more than 25 years.

I do not know if the German or the Thai Navy (which according to the blog article Lex P. cites as source, knows nothing of submarine operations and wants the 206A boats to learn) use the Dive Certification based on SUBSAFE system, but the Brits, the American, the Australians and we in Canada do. By the way, some of the German Type 206 went through an extremely complex and extensive refit after 25 years of service, to get only a ten year extension of life. The mods were so extreme that they re classed them as 206A. When the ten years extension expired, the German stopped using them and parked them alongside the wall. Its up to the German's conscience to decide if they will sell them to some country that may put a lesser value on the life of its sailors.

An interesting comparison is provided by the Australian Collins class: The first one came in service in 1996 and is expected to retire in 2025 (basically - thirty years). The Australian government started the replacement program in 2008, as they expect the full process of design/selection/biding/construction/operational certification to take 17 years. This is the source of my calculation that we are almost already late for the replacement of our Victoria class (and the Australian government has proven more effective than Canada at getting ships in the water lately). Hence, by the way, my reference to "Bozos in Ottawa" which relates to our political masters (and possibly some senior civil servant advising them - poorly IMHO) proven incapability to manage a modern fleet - not to the uniformed sailors up there.

On a more personal note L.P., while a reservist, I started as a D.Mech. and in the mid 70's spent many weeks of training in that capacity onboard  OKANAGAN (not long enough to get my dolphins unfortunately). Later, as a MARS officer, I shared for  many years a townhouse in Halifax with a succession of British Exchange Submarine Officers,  helping them with their constant training in all manners of boat emergencies, etc. Need I say that submarine developments, submarine warfare and similar topics filled many a discussion. I'm still in touch regularly with many of these friends and have kept up with development in the submarine world through them.  So I am not totally in my lane, but I am not quite out of it either here.

Offline Lumber

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2011, 19:03:14 »
Makes me wish I could skip my surface time altogether and prep for my NOPQ on a sub. By the time I'm D-Level qualified, there won't be a sub for me to serve on!

Ok that's a little bit of an exaggeration, but still, this thread makes me worry that my "career" as a submariner will only be half lived.

Any chance if I let them know I want to go subs that they will ensure I get the first available NOPQ instead of waiting up to 2 years for the backlog to clear?
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Offline drunknsubmrnr

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2011, 06:37:41 »
I can't speak for MARS, but that has been known to happen in technical trades.

The reverse has happened too. If you're submarine-qualified, you may be held back from a career course if the submarine community needs you.

Offline Lex Parsimoniae

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2011, 20:14:48 »
You were at the main and JR briefings? Somehow I doubt that.
What JR briefings?  There were only crew briefings - not briefings by rank level.  The crew of a VCS is only 48 - why would you split it up for briefings anyways?