Author Topic: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?  (Read 259690 times)

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Offline Lex Parsimoniae

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2011, 20:17:14 »
SUBSAFE is a complex set of formulas that takes into account all sorts of factor (expected number of dives, duration, depth, etc.)...
SUBSAFE is nothing of the sort.  Remainder of your post is just plain minsinformation.

Offline Lex Parsimoniae

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2011, 20:22:42 »
Makes me wish I could skip my surface time altogether and prep for my NOPQ on a sub. By the time I'm D-Level qualified, there won't be a sub for me to serve on!
FYI - MARS-SUB do the Submarine Warfare Director Course and not other D-levels.

Ok that's a little bit of an exaggeration, but still, this thread makes me worry that my "career" as a submariner will only be half lived.
Plenty of time left on the Victoria Class for a full career.

Any chance if I let them know I want to go subs that they will ensure I get the first available NOPQ instead of waiting up to 2 years for the backlog to clear?
The crew aboard the Victoria Class is too small to adequately prepare you for your NOPQ board in addition to their normal duties.  Patience is your only option I'm afraid.  PM me if you want specific details about serving in  submarines.

Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2011, 20:31:32 »
VICTORIA-Class submarines and crews form a highly cost effective instrument for the defence of Canada. However, the price of this combat capability is the unusual and hazardous conditions under which submariners operate. To counter these associated risks, a Submarine Safety (SUBSAFE) Program has been established. The SUBSAFE Program is a risk-based Safety Management System with a SUBSAFE Board, an executive committee representing Maritime Command, the Materiel Group and the Human Resources-Military Group, specifically Occupational Health services, reporting to the Chief of Maritime Staff (CMS).

The SUBSAFE Board is designed to recommend harmonization of DND and CF interdependencies and on approval of CMS, act to ensure:

the SUBSAFE Vision, CANADA'S SUBMARINES: SAFE, SILENT, SUPERIOR, is accomplished;

the SUBSAFE Core Values: Service to Canada, Our people, Professionalism and Integrity are adhered to;

the SUBSAFE Guiding Principles are followed:

SUBSAFE GUIDING PRINCIPLES

Officers, Managers and Supervisors are Responsible and Accountable for the Health and Safety of Personnel and Materiel
Communicate and Respond to Feedback
Delegate to the Most Functional Level
Capitalize on Teamwork and Flexibility
Conform to DND/CF, Canadian and Applicable International Regulations, Standards, Agreements and Best Practises
Exercise Due Diligence
Document Information and Manage Records
Prevent Incidents and Accidents and Promote Operational Effectiveness by applying Resources and Discipline to the Management System
Train for Competence and Awareness
Monitor, Measure and Trend Performance
Generate Effective Resource Stewardship
Maintain Procedures and Emergency Preparedness
Identify Hazards and Balance Risks
Seek out Innovation and Continuous Improvement
Maintain and Review Objectives and Conduct Periodic Audits
 

and; the SUBSAFE Objectives are achieved:

SUBSAFE OBJECTIVES

Submarine operations are to be conducted safely balancing risks against the goals of achieving the mission
Submarines will be operationally and weapons certified
Submarines will operate with a full, medically fit and trained crew
Submarines will be materially certified
All personnel onboard the submarines will be aware of all known significant hazards and trained to react accordingly to counter the associated risks
An efficient and effective SUBSAFE Program will be maintained
In the absence of specific procedures, risk management and due diligence are to be exercised
 

Responsibility and accountability for the SUBSAFE Program is through the military chain of command and departmental lines of authority. All entities associated with the operation, maintenance or modification of the VICTORIA-Class Submarines are responsible for acting in accordance with the SUBSAFE Policy. Submarine commanding officers are the focal point for all safety matters onboard their vessels and immediate sphere of influence. Due diligence will be exercised and documented.

CMS, as the SUBSAFE Authority, is accountable to the CDS for the safety of submarine operations. ADM(Mat), as the Materiel Authority is accountable to the DM and CDS for materiel acquisition and support services and is responsible for materiel life-cycle. ADM(HR-Mil) is accountable to the CDS for human resource policies and DGHS is responsible for occupational health. Both ADM(Mat) and ADM(HR-Mil) are required to support CMS in order that CMS can execute his personnel and materiel responsibilities related to the safe operations of submarines. The Command Submarine Safety Office, as an independent, advisory and review body, reports directly to CMS on all submarine safety matters. The SUBSAFE Board, chaired by the Director General Maritime Personnel and Readiness, harmonizes activities and issues between these stakeholders. Following extended or significant work periods, the SUBSAFE Board will co-ordinate and oversee the activities culminating in CMS's authority for the submarine to proceed to sea, dive and conduct operations.

Prior to the commencement of an operating cycle and upon the recommendations of the SUBSAFE Board, CMS will delegate the day to day management of the SUBSAFE Program to the designated Formation Commander. Specific directions and guidance to the Formation Commanders will be issued by CMS through SUBSAFE Program directives.

The Canadian Navy is committed to the safe operations of submarines in Canada and the SUBSAFE Program provides an excellent framework within which to ensure the safety of our submariners and secure Canada's future for combat-capable submarines.

"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline navypuke

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2011, 16:13:00 »
Soon the west coast will have three subs and the east coast one. I wonder if that ticks off the east coast fleet with the sub facilities. It was kind of a curious thing to award the maintenance contract out here.

Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2011, 10:29:45 »
Soon the west coast will have three subs and the east coast one. I wonder if that ticks off the east coast fleet with the sub facilities. It was kind of a curious thing to award the maintenance contract out here.

I don't think this is a case of east vs west, we're all one navy. That's where the maintenance contract was awarded, so be it. Time to move on.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2011, 12:10:16 »
Soon the west coast will have three subs and the east coast one. I wonder if that ticks off the east coast fleet with the sub facilities. It was kind of a curious thing to award the maintenance contract out here.

Thats a new one any thing to back that up?
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Offline drunknsubmrnr

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2011, 21:28:28 »
Quote
What JR briefings?  There were only crew briefings - not briefings by rank level.  The crew of a VCS is only 48 - why would you split it up for briefings anyways?

I thought you said you were at the main SCLE briefings? Interesting....

FYI, there were a number of briefings held for the JR's and SR's, especially when the release rate started to approach 50% of MOG 5(UW) JR's. The one I mentioned was in the Roger with a couple of GTO's and the SCLE PM.

Offline Sub-normal

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2011, 22:13:10 »
Thats a new one any thing to back that up?

Which part is new the one about the maintenance contract or 3 subs on the west coast?  VISSC has been around for a while now and Corner Brook will be the next boat into VISSC at Victoria shipyards therefore with VICTORIA and CHICOUTIMI already out here that will make 3 boats on the west coast.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2011, 22:33:39 »
Which part is new the one about the maintenance contract or 3 subs on the west coast?  VISSC has been around for a while now and Corner Brook will be the next boat into VISSC at Victoria shipyards therefore with VICTORIA and CHICOUTIMI already out here that will make 3 boats on the west coast.

Now will the 3 subs out there be a permament organizational change as navypuke indicates or is it for the scheduled refit with the sub returning back east upon completion.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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Offline Sub-normal

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #59 on: March 14, 2011, 01:43:47 »
As far as we have been told she will stay and east coast asset/crew.  Although I've been lead to believe she will conduct her TRP and weapons cert on the west coast so for part of her reactivation and running she may have a partial west coast crew.

Offline Lex Parsimoniae

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #60 on: March 14, 2011, 22:37:46 »
I thought you said you were at the main SCLE briefings? Interesting....
I did and I was.

FYI, there were a number of briefings held for the JR's and SR's, especially when the release rate started to approach 50% of MOG 5(UW) JR's. The one I mentioned was in the Roger with a couple of GTO's and the SCLE PM.
There was never anything close to a 50% release rate in the Canadian submarine service, ever.  I suppose if a TA team lost a NET, and there only be 2 on the team, then you could claim a 50% attrition rate.  Lies, damn lies, and statistics I guess.

Offline drunknsubmrnr

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #61 on: March 15, 2011, 10:34:26 »
Quote
I did and I was.

You also said "There were only crew briefings - not briefings by rank level.  The crew of a VCS is only 48 - why would you split it up for briefings anyways?"

If you were at the SCLE briefings you'd know that the entire submarine community was there, not just people assigned for crew at that time.

As it happened, there were other briefings as well, given to the SR's and JR's on "why we shouldn't slap in". That wasn't actually the title, but it was why they were giving the briefings.

Quote
There was never anything close to a 50% release rate in the Canadian submarine service, ever.

Right. That's why there are still more than 50% of the original Oberon crews in the service. Even though they're pushing 70 now.

Or maybe, just maybe, the actual release rate of the submarine service and every other service over time is 100%.  :o

At the time, the release rate was very high and looked to increase. We were told it was approaching 50% of qualified JR's. It was a concern to the people staying in because of the rather significant drop in training standards to train their replacements.



Offline recceguy

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #62 on: March 15, 2011, 14:52:57 »
I'm sure you guys have better things to discuss, other than who was where at what time. Get past it and move on.

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Offline KJK

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #63 on: March 29, 2011, 12:26:40 »
DID is reporting a Canadian request for 36 kits to convert Mk 48 Mod 4 heavy torpedos to Mod 7 Advanced Technology units. I knew these torpedos were expensive but $125 million for 36 kits plus spare parts!!!! :o :o :o OMG!

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/sub-support-contract-creating-canadian-controversy-04563/

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Offline Sub-normal

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2011, 14:32:53 »
DID is reporting a Canadian request for 36 kits to convert Mk 48 Mod 4 heavy torpedoes to Mod 7 Advanced Technology units. I knew these torpedo's were expensive but $125 million for 36 kits plus spare parts!!!! :o :o :o OMG!

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/sub-support-contract-creating-canadian-controversy-04563/

KJK

It might seem expensive but it replaces pretty much all the insides of the torpedo (sensors, guidance fuel tanks signal processing) giving use pretty much a whole new torpedo with a massive jump in capabilities.

Offline Acer Syrup

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2011, 17:02:18 »
So do we get a return deposit on the MOD 4 conponents? Or can we sell them to some other navy?  ;D

So at $3.5 million a pop (or should I say the fact that we will only have 36 for awhile)... Do the subs have some sort of a training dummy to practice with?


Offline KJK

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2011, 17:06:15 »
I would think the Mod 4 parts are so old they belong in a museum.

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Offline GAP

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #67 on: April 09, 2011, 09:42:32 »
Navy to upgrade torpedoes for troubled subs
CBC News Posted: Apr 8, 2011
 Article Link

Canada's navy plans to spend about $120 million to upgrade 36 torpedoes, but they still won't work in its four submarines without further refits, CBC News has learned.

The navy has MK-48 American torpedoes in stock, but the four British-built submarines aren't capable of firing them.

Even after the weapons are converted, Canada would still have to spend millions more to refit the submarines to fire them.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay confirmed the plans on Friday but said no decision had been made about the procurement.

"Of course I know about it," MacKay said during a campaign stop with Conservative MP Gerald Keddy in Bridgewater, N.S.

"There's absolutely no decision taken at this point. The Department of National Defence is continuously looking at different procurements whether it be munitions, whether it be new equipment."
U.S. disclosed purchase

Canada's plan to upgrade the torpedoes was revealed by the U.S. Defence Security Co-operation Agency, which oversees arms sales to foreign countries. The agency said the equipment, parts, training and support would cost more than $120 million Cdn. It notified the U.S. Congress about the sale in mid-March.

Since Canada already has the torpedoes, it will have "no difficulty absorbing these additional conversion kits," the agency said in a new release.

Canadian Defence Department officials have yet to respond to questions from CBC News.
More on link
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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #68 on: April 09, 2011, 13:43:14 »
I don't know why CBC is reporting old news because this was mentioned when we first bought the subs. When they were still Upholder class they fired Sub-Harpoon and Spearfish torpedoes and were incapable of firing MK48s. Now that the Navy is getting around to start to rectify that it becomes a big scandal again. Well done News Media!
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #69 on: April 09, 2011, 14:20:14 »
I don't know why CBC is reporting old news...

Because this quote is in the sidebar:

Quote
  'I’m not surprised for a minute that they once again tried to hide and deny another misspending adventure'—Liberal MP Dominic LeBlanc

Anything the CBC can do to make the Conservatives look bad. They don't even point out that it was the Liberals that bought the boats in the first place.
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Offline yoman

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #70 on: April 23, 2011, 21:52:41 »
Quote
HMCS Victoria ready for action again
 
By Katie DeRosa, Times Colonist April 22, 2011

After years of expensive refits and repairs to make it seaworthy, the Canadian Navy submarine stationed at CFB Esquimalt is out of the dry dock and in the water.

HMCS Victoria was pulled out of drydock and into Esquimalt Harbour on Sunday, navy spokeswoman Lt-Cmdr. Nathalie Garcia confirmed.

However, neither the Navy nor the Department of National Defence would comment Thursday on the plans for the submarine now that it is operational. Garcia said an official launch for the submarine will take place in the coming weeks, but did not have a specific date.

The navy's only other functional submarine is HMCS Corner Brook, set to arrive at CFB Esquimalt from CFB Halifax this summer.

The four second-hand submarines have been a lightning rod of controversy since the Canadian government purchased them from Britain for $891 million in 1998. The British Royal Navy launched the dieselpowered submarines in the late 1980s and took them out of service in 1994.

Since it was delivered in 2000, HMCS Victoria has spent most of its time in Canada in drydock undergoing $195 million in repairs.

Since arriving at CFB Esquimalt in 2003, there have been a series of launch dates for HMCS Victoria, which were ultimately delayed because of technical setbacks.

HMCS Victoria sailed for a few months in 2004 but was pulled from service after a fire on HMCS Chicoutimi, one of the four subs, killed a

crewman on its voyage from Britain. Chicoutimi, also housed at CFB Esquimalt, is not expected to sail again until 2012.

In the last 10 years, HMCS Victoria has spent more months undergoing repairs than days at sea - it has spent 115 days in service and 120 months in dry dock - with taxpayers picking up the hefty bill.

In 2007, the Victoria Shipyards and its partner companies were awarded a five-year, $370 million contract to maintain the Canadian military's four submarines, but the total contract could be worth $1.5 billion if extended over 15 years.

In an interview last May, the boat's commanding officer, Lt-Cmdr. Christopher Ellis, said HMCS Victoria was slated to sail February 2011. Because it has not been to sea for five years, Ellis said at the time that HMCS Victoria would spend its first eight to nine months at sea in safety trials and crew preparation.

Ellis said in May that HMCS Victoria was set to be the first Upholder-class submarine to fire a MK-48 torpedo.

Those torpedoes, the sole weapon aboard the boats, were recently the source of political backlash from Liberal MPs after news leaked that the Canadian government was considering spending $125 million on torpedo refit kits from the U.S. None of the Britishbuilt submarines are capable of firing the navy's stock of MK 48 torpedoes.

HMCS Victoria is also slated to take part in the international Rim of the Pacific exercise which takes place every two years off Hawaii.

kderosa@timescolonist.com
© Copyright (c) The Victoria Times Colonist
Read more: http://www.timescolonist.com/news/HMCS+Victoria+ready+action+again/4660301/story.html#ixzz1KOwakVPA

Nice to see her back in the water after all this time.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #71 on: April 23, 2011, 22:02:03 »
and armed as well, guess that was the reason for the MERX bid on the Mk 48 upgrades.

Offline recceguy

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #72 on: April 23, 2011, 22:09:59 »
Quote
The four second-hand submarines have been a lightning rod of controversy since the Canadian government purchased them from Britain for $891 million in 1998. The British Royal Navy launched the dieselpowered submarines in the late 1980s and took them out of service in 1994.


Let's lay the blame where it belongs, at the feet of the Liebrals.

Quote
Those torpedoes, the sole weapon aboard the boats, were recently the source of political backlash from Liberal MPs after news leaked that the Canadian government was considering spending $125 million on torpedo refit kits from the U.S. None of the Britishbuilt submarines are capable of firing the navy's stock of MK 48 torpedoes.
Trying to make hay from the fact that the Liebrals didn't do their due diligence when THEY made the purchase and, typically, they are trying to blame someone else for their own incompetence.


Of course we can't expect the liebral friendly and biased media to take the 'natural governing party' to task during an election, especially if they cam make it look like the 'Canadian government' look like the Tories.

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Offline Colin P

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #73 on: April 23, 2011, 22:26:30 »
Cmon, open up tell us how you really feel about the Liebrals.....

Offline N. McKay

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #74 on: April 24, 2011, 06:33:46 »
Of course we can't expect the liebral friendly and biased media to take the 'natural governing party' to task during an election, especially if they cam make it look like the 'Canadian government' look like the Tories.

I thought the article was pretty neutral.  You almost seem to be suggesting that it wasn't biased enough in the other direction since it didn't go out of its way to point out who was in power when the submarines were procurred.