Author Topic: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?  (Read 318809 times)

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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #350 on: May 26, 2016, 21:55:36 »
Good value for money? I would have rather waited on the purchase until there was funds available. We've waited over a decade and they're just operational now, with billions of dollars spent on refits. We could have had brand new SSKs being delivered for that money, and they'd be usable into the 2060s, not 2030 retirement like the Victorias will be.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #351 on: May 26, 2016, 23:18:15 »
Never underestimate them sneaky Norks!!!



Offline Eaglelord17

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #352 on: May 27, 2016, 07:52:12 »
Good value for money? I would have rather waited on the purchase until there was funds available. We've waited over a decade and they're just operational now, with billions of dollars spent on refits. We could have had brand new SSKs being delivered for that money, and they'd be usable into the 2060s, not 2030 retirement like the Victorias will be.

Its Canadas fault the deal turned sour. I mean who buys a piece of kit for a great price and rips out the original kit in the sub and replaces it with incompatible American kit to make it more Canadian? Its like buying a used Ford, and ripping out some of the the internals and replacing it with Volkswagen parts. You can make it work, but it takes time and money, instead of just accepting them the way they are.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #353 on: May 27, 2016, 09:43:11 »
Eaglelord,

You are grossly simplifying things. I can assure you that the situation is far more complex than that.

Offline Lumber

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #354 on: May 27, 2016, 09:52:18 »
Its Canadas fault the deal turned sour. I mean who buys a piece of kit for a great price and rips out the original kit in the sub and replaces it with incompatible American kit to make it more Canadian? Its like buying a used Ford, and ripping out some of the the internals and replacing it with Volkswagen parts. You can make it work, but it takes time and money, instead of just accepting them the way they are.

I never understood this either.

We ripped out the torpedo system because the subs were equipped for Spearfish, and we use Mk48s. Would it not have been a lot cheaper and simpler to buy some Spearfish then to rip out an entire, complicated, weapons system and install a new one onto a platform that wasn't designed from the start to take it?
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #355 on: May 27, 2016, 10:07:39 »
I never understood this either.

We ripped out the torpedo system because the subs were equipped for Spearfish, and we use Mk48s. Would it not have been a lot cheaper and simpler to buy some Spearfish then to rip out an entire, complicated, weapons system and install a new one onto a platform that wasn't designed from the start to take it?

With perfect hindsight- maybe. We had just bought new Mk48s for the Oboats a few years earlier.

It did not seem like a big deal to change the fire control and modify the 21 inch tubes for another 21 inch torpedo. And, the Mk48 is still widely considered the best heavyweight in the business (I have seen it in action. May I never face it for real, with a real warhead). It would have cost a bundle to buy new torpedos and qualify them. When this deal was being sold to to Liberals in the 1990s (who did not want to spend a penny more on the military. Period.), a couple hundred million in Spearfish torpedos would have been a deal breaker and we would have no subs at all right now.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #356 on: May 27, 2016, 10:18:12 »
As SKT hints at, this is a much more complicated matter than wanting to keep the 48's over Spearfish. There are many technical and non-technical reasons why this move made (and still make) perfect sense, and they are not of a nature permitting discussion in open fora.

What is important to understand is that, even with the money that had to be invested in them, they are still worth about half of what it would have cost to acquire four boats providing similar capabilities to Canada. Some of you may have noted the Naval Engineering articles dealing with the Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy in these fora that indicated that building a modern warship is the most complex engineering undertaking on earth. Well, if building a modern warship was like a Moon landing mission, building a modern submarine would be like going to Mars.

Thing is, if the Navy is the Silent Service, the Submarine service is like the Silent Service of the Silent Service. I am glad that current naval leadership now recognizes that too much secrecy is bad for support for submarines in the public and are slowly lifting parts of the veil to address this PR matter. But for the good of the service, I think it is better to let the leadership of the Navy decide which part of the veil to lift and to which extent while remaining mum on the rest.


Those of us who support continued operation of submarines by Canada (I am one of them), should continue to support their use in public, but as until now, only on the basis of what is already public.

BTW, when looking at their cost, my personal view is that it should always be pointed out that the cost of the special refit of Chicoutimi to address repairs after the fire should not necessarily be counted against the cost of the class. Incidents can happen in any vessel and one could have occurred in any other submarines we would have acquired. In any event, this meant that she was updated to the higher standard electrical system found on the other three - something that was not planned originally.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #357 on: May 27, 2016, 10:27:28 »
Interesting take on the same event by CBC.

Can someone explain how the North Koreans got to the East Coast?

Incident in North Atlantic last fall shows why Canada needs submarines, navy says
NATO forces identified 5 subs from a major foreign power moving into North Atlantic last year


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/hmcs-windsor-submarine-canada-navy-greenwood-subs-halifax-1.3601633

Maybe I am missing something Cupper, but I don't see any reference to North Korea.

It says five submarines from "a" (singular) "major foreign power"  were spotted "near Iceland and Greenland".

I will let you guess who is the "major foreign power", but I can guarantee it's not North Korea.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #358 on: May 27, 2016, 11:08:20 »


A nice map of who has submarines.  Green represents countries with a submarine force, orange represents countries with submarines that have an SLBM capability.

Just looking at the countries in our Hemisphere, I'd say it's crucial we maintain this capability.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #359 on: May 27, 2016, 11:18:58 »
Maybe I am missing something Cupper, but I don't see any reference to North Korea.
I saw that and I assumed that he was attempting some sort of humour, but I just didn't get it -- especially since the article says "...the subs—four nuclear-powered and one diesel-electric...." would automatically count out N. Korea since they have only Whiskeys and Romeos.
    :dunno:

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #360 on: May 27, 2016, 13:08:42 »
I will let you guess who is the "major foreign power", but I can guarantee it's not North Korea.

 :pop:
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Offline cupper

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #361 on: May 27, 2016, 16:19:38 »
 :facepalm:

So you're saying it was Pakistan?

:rofl:

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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #362 on: May 27, 2016, 18:21:06 »
  :bowdown:

No, No, No:  I -N- D - I- A !

Offline CloudCover

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #363 on: May 27, 2016, 18:25:59 »
  :bowdown:

No, No, No:  I -N- D - I- A !

The taxi meter must have spinning out of control.

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #364 on: May 29, 2016, 23:45:47 »
Thing is, if the Navy is the Silent Service, the Submarine service is like the Silent Service of the Silent Service. I am glad that current naval leadership now recognizes that too much secrecy is bad for support for submarines in the public and are slowly lifting parts of the veil to address this PR matter. But for the good of the service, I think it is better to let the leadership of the Navy decide which part of the veil to lift and to which extent while remaining mum on the rest.


Those of us who support continued operation of submarines by Canada (I am one of them), should continue to support their use in public, but as until now, only on the basis of what is already public.

Specifically related to the yellow part of OGBDs post above, and in addition to what Cupper posted earlier in the thread here.  Great PR for the Silent Service and HMCS Windsor.  BZ to the crew.

Article Link

Canadian sub in underwater hunt for Russian vessel

HMCS Windsor dispatched on underwater hunt when Russia deployed five attack subs into the North Atlantic last fall, the Star has learned.


ONBOARD HMCS WINDSOR—A Canadian submarine was on the front lines as NATO allies scrambled last fall to track a “surge” of Russian subs that had deployed into the North Atlantic, the Star has learned.

HMCS Windsor, already in European waters for a NATO exercise, was re-tasked on a mission to try to track the Russian vessels.

Rear-Adm. John Newton, commander of Maritime Forces Atlantic, called the movement of Russian submarines “historically significant.”

“There was a quite a surge of Russian strategic power . . . it was moving a lot of boats around the North Atlantic,” he told the Star this week.

On the move were five Russian attack submarines, a show of force that might have been Moscow’s response to “Trident Juncture,” NATO’s largest exercise in a decade, involving 36,000 personnel from more than 30 nations.

But with the Russian boats active, the exercise turned real as NATO nations responded with ships and aircraft.

That included the HMCS Windsor, one of four Victoria-class submarines operated by the Royal Canadian Navy, which had been taking part in the NATO drill.

“Near the end, we were working bilaterally, nation-to-nation, in European waters when the opportunity came up to deal with a surge of undersea activity in the North Atlantic,” Newton said.

“Our role is to go with the alliance . . . and participate in coordinated surveillance, tracking, intelligence gathering,” he said.

The Star was among several media outlets invited onboard HMCS Windsor this week to get a glimpse of submarine life as it cruised underwater in the Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Nova Scotia.

The extent of Canada's role in last fall’s maritime cat-and-mouse game has not previously been disclosed.

For HMCS Windsor, the tasking set in motion a search far below the rolling ocean surface, as its crew used sophisticated sonar gear to listen for the telltale sounds of a Russian boat hiding in the depths.

And the submarine had a more capable set of ears, so to speak, thanks to a sonar system installed in 2014, the same gear used on the U.S. Virginia-class nuclear submarines, Newton said.

The upgraded sonar enables the crew of HMCS Windsor to pick up contacts at a longer distance and detect the telltale sounds of engines, even the noises of bearings, air pumps and hydraulic motors, to determine the classification of a ship, sometimes even the exact ship.

During its mission, HMCS Windsor prowled the area from the North Sea down to the Strait of Gibraltar, the strategic gateway to the Mediterranean.

Lt.-Cmdr. Peter Chu, commanding officer of the HMCS Windsor, says the boat was a “major” part of NATO’s effort to “track, follow and respond.”

“The situation evolved, matured. Canada presented the asset to NATO and off we went,” Chu said in an interview.

“What is really important is that Canada had an asset — HMCS Windsor — that was responding, tactically and operationally ready, and were able to do whatever NATO wanted,” he said.

The Star has learned that a (sic) CP-140M Aurora aircraft — dispatched overseas last November at the request of Great Britain — was also employed in the search to detect and track the Russian subs. 

The surveillance aircraft — purpose-built as a sub hunter and upgraded with new electronics to better search for targets — was deployed to the Royal Air Force base at Lossiemouth in northern Scotland. The defence department has refused to talk about the aircraft’s role, saying only that it “routinely conducts operations and exercises” with the British :Tin-Foil-Hat:, a statement it repeated to the Star on Friday. 

Last fall’s surge by Russia comes as American and NATO military leaders are sounding the alarm about heightened levels of activity by the Russian submarine fleet that boast new capabilities and more proficient crews.

The commander of U.S. naval forces in Europe told CNN last month that Russia is deploying its submarines in numbers not seen in decades.

“The submarines that we're seeing are much more stealthy,” Adm. Mark Ferguson told the news network.

“We're seeing (the Russians) have more advanced weapons systems, missile systems that can attack land at long ranges, and we also see their operating proficiency is getting better as they range farther from home waters,” Ferguson said.

The drama also happened against the backdrop of heightened tensions between NATO nations and Russia over Moscow’s aggression against Ukraine.

Newton said last fall’s events underscore the role of the subs — to covertly gather intelligence that is then shared with allies. “It’s a very clandestine battle. You never want to show your adversary you detect them,” Newton said.

Neither Chu nor Newton would say whether HMCS Windsor was able to detect and track one of the Russian vessels.

“We definitely were a major contributor. Everything with regards to the deployment was very successful,” Chu said.

But Vice-Admiral Mark Norman, commander of the Royal Canadian Navy, suggests that HMCS Windsor was successful in its mission. In a new video to highlight the navy, Norman singles out the submarine’s work last fall.

“The operational success of HMCS Windsor in particular is worthy of recognition,” Norman says.

“She was employed to help our NATO partners keep tabs on a very important vessel that was transiting through NATO’s operating areas,” Norman said.

HMCS Windsor returned to its Halifax home in December after 101 days at sea, the longest mission yet for Canada’s Victoria-class submarines and the high point of a maritime program burdened by its share of troubles.

Getting subs bought second-hand from the British operational has cost money and the life of a Canadian sailor, who was killed in 2004 when fire broke out on HMCS Chicoutimi.

But navy commanders are hoping the worst is behind them as they now exploit the capabilities of the sub fleet.

“For this boat, that was the peak of its operational readiness . . . to be employed directly in a task important to NATO, important to our bilateral relations with the French, the British and the Americans,” Newton said.

“She was doing her job.”
« Last Edit: May 29, 2016, 23:50:37 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline cupper

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #365 on: May 30, 2016, 13:59:43 »
What? The Russians?

Who would have guessed that? :facepalm:

 [:D
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Offline drunknsubmrnr

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #366 on: June 06, 2016, 20:26:00 »
As SKT hints at, this is a much more complicated matter than wanting to keep the 48's over Spearfish. There are many technical and non-technical reasons why this move made (and still make) perfect sense, and they are not of a nature permitting discussion in open fora.

No, it was as SKT said...money. The Navy at the time wanted Spearfish, but the government was unwilling to pay extra for them. We wanted the ESM fits too, but they wouldn't pay for those either.

Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #367 on: June 06, 2016, 20:56:18 »
No, it was as SKT said...money. The Navy at the time wanted Spearfish, but the government was unwilling to pay extra for them. We wanted the ESM fits too, but they wouldn't pay for those either.

My apologies drunknsumrnr, but what does ESM stand for in this case?

Thanks in advance, Matthew. :salute:
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #368 on: June 06, 2016, 21:14:16 »
Electronic Support Measures; the ability to detect, say, the RADAR and stuff.  ESM can tell you who/what is in the area and emitting.

Not a fan of this site as a reference but...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_warfare_support_measures
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 00:08:08 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #369 on: June 06, 2016, 21:15:22 »
No, it was as SKT said...money. The Navy at the time wanted Spearfish, but the government was unwilling to pay extra for them. We wanted the ESM fits too, but they wouldn't pay for those either.

Interesting I always understood it was the Navy pushing for the US weapons

Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #370 on: June 07, 2016, 00:31:08 »
Electronic Support Measures; the ability to detect, say, the RADAR and stuff.  ESM can tell you who/what is in the area and emitting.

Not a fan of this site as a reference but...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_warfare_support_measures

Thanks EyeInTheSky.  Cheers, Matthew. :salute:
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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #371 on: June 17, 2016, 19:54:22 »
Well here's some uplifting news for the Dutch Navy,seems like it's done the new subs will come. :salute:

y Niels Rigter - June 17, 2016

The Hague - The Netherlands needs submarines. With that finding, the government fixes the start of the replacement of the four submarines, a billion project.

Is expected to Hennis Secretary (Defence) today with a sketch of the need as defense sees. According to insiders also need new submarines 'expeditionary' are thus suitable for operation over long distances. They should not only be useful for intelligence gathering but also for tactical operations of special forces and deterrence

Thereby Netherlands would maintain its current position within NATO. Netherlands brings with current submarines of Walrus class a unique force in the alliance: the submarines are big enough to be able to operate over long distances, but also quiet enough not to run into the holes in intelligence gathering. In that respect, they differ both from the robust nuclear submarines as the French, British and Americans who have and the little kustverdedigingssubmarines of Norwegians. Apart from the Netherlands alone, Canada has similar submarines.

About money is in the sketch according to a source Hague nothing. For the whole project Defense estimated 2.5 billion. According to experts, is that enough for four new boats. At the same time four or the minimum amount that the Navy from the feet said to be based on the rule of thumb that there is always one boat is in maintenance, one for education and training, one is engaged in mission area and one on the way.

International cooperation can help. Defense wants to work with "one or more partner countries' purchase new submarines and develop, in partnership with research institutes and industry. Dutch companies such as Thales (radar and communications) and shipbuilder Damen stand in front to help with development.

Earlier Hennis gave in the House that cooperation with Norway is promising. The Norwegians find another - smaller - type boat, meant for coastal defenses along the fjords. These "subs" are noticeably cheaper.

The Lower House majority convinced of the usefulness of new submarines. The cost, however, can indeed constitute a political divisive the next few years.


ps,the 2.5 billion will not be enough,but sources say there's about 4 billion availeble.

gr,walter(used google tranlate,sorry for any mistakes)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 19:57:31 by Karel Doorman »
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Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #372 on: June 18, 2016, 11:38:12 »
Has the navy talked about an eventual replacement?

Numbers?
Replacement timing?

I have to assume the submarine community in Canada was watching the Australian selection of the DCNS design with great interest.
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Offline FSTO

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #373 on: June 18, 2016, 12:09:59 »
Has the navy talked about an eventual replacement?

Numbers?
Replacement timing?

I have to assume the submarine community in Canada was watching the Australian selection of the DCNS design with great interest.

Cripes we are on pins and needles about the AORs! Planning for new subs? Madness I tell you, MADNESS!!!

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #374 on: June 18, 2016, 13:14:51 »
Has the navy talked about an eventual replacement?


I googled "Liberal Part of Canada Submarine Replacement Program...which lead me directly to this site.

 ;D
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