Author Topic: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread  (Read 139209 times)

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Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread
« Reply #450 on: October 09, 2017, 14:00:29 »
I too am on the fence to some degree as well.  I know there are folks who can still contribute in a meaningful way to the machine, but if those who can deploy get left holding the bag and burned out with no escape from the treadmill, they'll vote with their feet.  That, is unsustainable in a small military like ours.  It is because of this type of situation in the navy that we're in deep trouble with keeping ships at sea that we are today and it's only going to get worse in the marine engineering world.  All this trade amalgamation has done is added fuel to the fires of discontent that was already there with pier head jumping amongst the Stokers and has now spread to the ET and HT.

I think that's an accurate assessment, the fires are burning.
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All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Re: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread
« Reply #451 on: October 09, 2017, 14:11:20 »
I can't say I'm thrilled by this idea. While I accept that there is a need to accommodate those pers who for whatever reason are not deployable, there is a certain threshold where it starts to impact overall operational capability. What happens when a small occupation crosses that threshold, or a unit is carrying too many people with restrictions? I foresee greater instances of burnout as the same folks get deployed even more often than they do now.

I'm also not convinced that a salary bump is going to have the desired effect. You can't cure a person with dollars. Injuries and illnesses take time, and some people never return to operation status. We (and they) should accept that this is a reality and we should invest in a robust transition programme that is more than mere words about priority hiring and so forth.

We should make much better use of things like SCAN, by turning it way from its current medical release focus, and redirect the energies to transition planning starting during recruit training. There should be a review at least at the end of each period of engagement. It's past too late to plan your civilian life when you have your release message in your hands. I recognize that it is not the job of the CF to prepare you for your second career, but I think there is a moral obligation to not release folks who are subsequently unemployable.
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Re: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread
« Reply #452 on: October 09, 2017, 17:41:08 »
As it stands now, some folks might be retained on accommodation for up to 3 years.  That gives the CF time to recruit, train, get to OFP and beyond perhaps, the "next person" who will replace them.

What if a mbr is injured (PCAT type injury) 2 months after signing their IE25.  Then what?  We have a mbr who cannot deploy for XX years, who takes the non-deploy billets in their trade?  This will have a cumulative effect.

Bonus for staying deployable?  What happens when a small trade like mine already is maxed out and a few more people go onto the "Cl B type TOS" list. 
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread
« Reply #453 on: October 09, 2017, 18:55:48 »
We were briefed on ILP about this. My understanding is there will be major culture change that will need to happen. In a nutshell, they are looking at revamping the system to have a Reg Force without restrictions, Reg Force with restrictions, Res Force without restrictions and Res Force with restrictions. The main difference between with or without restrictions would be deployability and postings. Also, a financial bonus on the salary would be provided to encourage members to be in the "without restrictions" category.

Full Time Unrestricted;
Part Time Unrestricted;
Full Time Restricted;
Part Time Restricted.

Of course the greatest financial incentives will go to the unrestricted group.

Did they also brief the "CFB Canada" concept?  Federal Health Cards for all family members that will be utilized nation-wide vice having to switch up with every province (apparently having issues getting la belle province on-board with this) amongst the other items?

Indeed, the times they are a changing ...and it's looking for the better in my opinion.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 18:59:36 by ArmyVern »
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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread
« Reply #454 on: October 09, 2017, 19:03:36 »
...I'm also not convinced that a salary bump is going to have the desired effect. You can't cure a person with dollars. Injuries and illnesses take time, and some people never return to operation status. We (and they) should accept that this is a reality and we should invest in a robust transition programme that is more than mere words about priority hiring and so forth.
...

They aren't ignoring "transition" while they deal with the other items.  Huge change is also coming in that area.

Register here:

https://www.metforce.ca/met/en/


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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread
« Reply #455 on: October 09, 2017, 19:11:13 »
There is significant risk in over-promising in many areas.  When you have a potential need for legislative change, regulatory change, and policy & process changes, those take significant time to achieve; right now, there's a conceptual framework that briefs well on PowerPoint, and is about that deep.

So don't count on any of these conceptual ideas for your next few postings.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 19:14:54 by dapaterson »
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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread
« Reply #456 on: October 09, 2017, 20:22:27 »
....
...
So don't count on any of these conceptual ideas for your next few postings.

Molasses indeed.  I'll be out before most come to fruition.  Slow and cold.
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Re: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread
« Reply #457 on: October 09, 2017, 21:10:25 »
They aren't ignoring "transition" while they deal with the other items.  Huge change is also coming in that area.

Register here:

https://www.metforce.ca/met/en/
I attended their career fair last month.  It was very slick, promised the sun and the moon too.  So far, l have been underwhelmed with the website.  Lots of bugs to work out.  It's felt like an election campaign, lots of promises but less substance.  If they do make it match promises, will be a fine thing to see.

Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread
« Reply #458 on: October 09, 2017, 21:29:58 »
I attended their career fair last month.  It was very slick, promised the sun and the moon too.  So far, l have been underwhelmed with the website.  Lots of bugs to work out.  It's felt like an election campaign, lots of promises but less substance.  If they do make it match promises, will be a fine thing to see.

I know a few who've registered and are very impressed ... especially those with job offers and the one with the small business mentor who is really helping him out.

It's a month old so of course there's still bugs to be worked out ... just like generations-old iphones still get program updates to this day.

It's a non-profit so the slick is quite OK with me ... because it's the right thing to do.
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If you or someone you love is having difficulty & would like to speak to someone who has been through a similar experience, who understands, & will respect your need for privacy and confidentiality, contact OSISS toll-free at 1-800-883-6094. You can locate the peer closest to you by logging on to www.osiss.ca, clicking on “Contact us” link & then choosing the “Peer” or “Family Support Network”. Help IS out there.

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Re: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread
« Reply #459 on: October 09, 2017, 21:38:23 »
I know a few who've registered and are very impressed ... especially those with job offers and the one with the small business mentor who is really helping him out.

It's a month old so of course there's still bugs to be worked out ... just like generations-old iphones still get program updates to this day.

It's a non-profit so the slick is quite OK with me ... because it's the right thing to do.


That's fantastic news if some are finding success.  This group's hearts in the right place.  I truly hope they are outstanding in their success rate and results.

Offline Mediman14

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Change of Universality of Service
« Reply #460 on: July 04, 2018, 18:21:28 »
I was in an O'Group today, it was mention by the BSurg that a new interm Policy on direction for Clinicians to follow regarding categories was coming out shortly. Has anyone been told the same? If so, any idea on how this interm policy is going to be laid out?

The official Policy was supposed to be out in Dec/ Jan time frame

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Re: Change of Universality of Service
« Reply #461 on: July 04, 2018, 23:01:05 »
Yes. And no clue, because I don't work in Ottawa.

During a visit last month, the Surg Gen was talking about a new approach to decide whether or not service members are fit for service. The current system is too limited and somewhat punitive with the removal of allowance if you are not "fit". This is counter to a developing concept which will determine those who can deploy and those who can't, while retaining trained personnel for recruiting, training and other non-operational roles.


There is a culture shift the CAF that is starting in MILPERS that will fundamentally change how we care for the sick and injured and how we can retain our personnel.
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Re: Change of Universality of Service
« Reply #462 on: July 04, 2018, 23:43:35 »
Four conditions for retention shared recently were:
1) Operate personal weapon
2) Pass FORCE Test
3) Employable in military environment (can tolerate the sight of others in CAF uniform)
4) Employable in an operational environment (the example given was able to perform duties in a CP during an Exercise in Wainwright).
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Offline Mediman14

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Re: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread
« Reply #463 on: July 05, 2018, 17:04:56 »

There is a culture shift the CAF that is starting in MILPERS that will fundamentally change how we care for the sick and injured and how we can retain our personnel.

I think in order to retain our personnel, the CAF will need to change in so many ways, from the Medical side to the policy side. Some policies laid out by the CAF are outdated. One Policy that sticks out is DAOD 5003-6 (CCM, Compassionate Postings etc) We have to be more family friendly given today's society, many Mbrs in the CAF have children with special needs. Instead of Commanders saying " to bad, so sad" attitude, the CAF will need to be more understanding and have a common sense approach. An Example of this could simply be "You can't up root an family with an autistic child" changes are not taking likely, this could be achieved by stop blind siding people with postings, give a Mbr 6 months to a year notice. But I do realize there is challenges with that as things every day within the CAF.
   This is only one example, I know there is many more. The only I mentioned this is that I am fighting for a subordinate that is in that situation.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread
« Reply #464 on: July 05, 2018, 19:05:33 »
It also has to be balanced with the needs of the service and those people who are single, with no children, who also want to remain in location for Reason X/be posted out of their current location for Reason Y.

Tough balance to strike, but the effort should be made. 
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline Mediman14

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Re: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread
« Reply #465 on: July 05, 2018, 19:12:21 »
I totally agree with you! It will be hard balance the needs of the service with the demands from personnel. And yes, there should be an effort made, it's better than nothing at all!

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Re: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread
« Reply #466 on: July 05, 2018, 19:17:04 »
I think if the collective "we" of the CAF can put an effort into looking after our people, our people will put an effort into looking after the CAF.

Win-win, and we won't send people out the door because they 'can't operate a machine gun after parachuting into the front lines' who still have years of valuable service left to give to their country.

Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

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Re: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread
« Reply #467 on: July 05, 2018, 21:36:05 »
The things folks need to remember that if they are making an ask to be accommodated for family reasons, there needs to be an understanding on the member's part that there may be a sacrifice required on their end as well to make that accommodation happen. I've been privy to a few instances in the past several years where my Branch was willing to leave the member in situ because the move was being driven by a promotion yet the member refused to decline their promotion to make the deal work; they expected someone else who had been in the geo loc a shorter period of time than them to be moved so they could stay put and still be promoted...

Offline Tcm621

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Re: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread
« Reply #468 on: July 06, 2018, 01:45:54 »
The things folks need to remember that if they are making an ask to be accommodated for family reasons, there needs to be an understanding on the member's part that there may be a sacrifice required on their end as well to make that accommodation happen. I've been privy to a few instances in the past several years where my Branch was willing to leave the member in situ because the move was being driven by a promotion yet the member refused to decline their promotion to make the deal work; they expected someone else who had been in the geo loc a shorter period of time than them to be moved so they could stay put and still be promoted...

To be fair, they earned the promotion why would they give it up? If they can't accommodate him at the local unit, then he moves or applies for compassionate which would allow him the promotion he earned but have career implications going forward, which everyone involved with would be aware of. If there is no basis for the compassionate why was a "deal" even on the table? This under the table crap males everyone else life more difficult.

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Re: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread
« Reply #469 on: July 06, 2018, 09:58:40 »
To be fair, they earned the promotion why would they give it up? If they can't accommodate him at the local unit, then he moves or applies for compassionate which would allow him the promotion he earned but have career implications going forward, which everyone involved with would be aware of. If there is no basis for the compassionate why was a "deal" even on the table? This under the table crap males everyone else life more difficult.

It appears the "under the table crap" was to try to accommodate the member who did not appear/stated to have compassionate reason for needing to stay geographically stable. The member was selected for promotion, and didn't want to move. Career shop tried to help them out, but there wasn't another position in the new rank. Member had a choice, defer the promotion or move (which is a good deal, because every CM briefing I've been in says deferring a promotion doesn't mean you can't be posted). The member wanted to stay and wanted the rank: too bad. They definitely earned the promotion, which was coming with a posting. Why should the CM screw another member of that person's unit so they could stay and get their promotion?

That's the problem with loosening the rules, we have a tendency to swing the pendulum way too far when trying to "fix" things. We could end up with people on "permanent" retention with massive MELs that make them basically non-deployable (especially if the "operational environment" caveat uses MAPLE RESOLVE CP Shift as an example).

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Re: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread
« Reply #470 on: July 06, 2018, 10:55:54 »
To be fair, they earned the promotion why would they give it up? If they can't accommodate him at the local unit, then he moves or applies for compassionate which would allow him the promotion he earned but have career implications going forward, which everyone involved with would be aware of. If there is no basis for the compassionate why was a "deal" even on the table? This under the table crap males everyone else life more difficult.
Not sure how you're even reading that anything in these instances was "under the table", it was all above board with the chains of command and the CM involved. 

The choices to the members were simple, be promoted and posted or decline the promotion and stay in situ.  As PuckChaser pointed out, they were still liable for posting anyway if they declined the promotion simply to try to avoid a posting but the "deal" was they wouldn't be and they would be left in place for at least one more year.  An "under the table deal" would have been something along the lines of promoting the member and letting them sit in a MMO position while another unit went vacant at a key command team rank, while they stayed in location without an actual job to do.

As for why they would give up a promotion they earned, it's pretty simple. They were the ones asking not to be moved to accommodate a family situation.  As a reminder, every rank change instruction states, "THIS PROMOTION IS CONDITIONAL UPON THE MEMBER ACTUALLY CARRYING OUT THE ASSIGNED DUTIES AT THE HIGHER RANK AND AT SUCH PLACE WHERE THE SERVICE REQUIREMENT EXISTS".  If a member is asking for special consideration and part of that makes them unable to meet that simple requirement, they shouldn't expect to be promoted.

Ref your idea about compassionate status...  This makes the member ineligible for promotion so they'd have to move first in order to be promoted anyway and then try to get a compassionate posting back to that location.

Offline Mediman14

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Re: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread
« Reply #471 on: July 06, 2018, 17:32:29 »
Speaking of compassionate posting, My bet is that most pers are not aware that, if you ask for a compassionate posting with or without compassionate status, you do not require to have an empty position available at that current rank!

Also, I should mention that, Base social workers treat all three (CCM, Compassionate Status, Compassionate Posting) the same, despite the differences in all three!

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Re: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread
« Reply #472 on: July 06, 2018, 22:01:31 »
Speaking of compassionate posting, My bet is that most pers are not aware that, if you ask for a compassionate posting with or without compassionate status, you do not require to have an empty position available at that current rank!

Also, I should mention that, Base social workers treat all three (CCM, Compassionate Status, Compassionate Posting) the same, despite the differences in all three!
In order to qualify for a compassionate posting, you must be assigned compassionate status. Otherwise it is simply a contingency cost move for personal reasons and there must be a position available in that MOS and at that rank at the location the member wants to be posted to.

See para 5.2 here:  DAOD 5003-6 - Contingency Cost Moves for Personal Reasons, Compassionate Status and Compassionate Posting

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Re: Change of Universality of Service
« Reply #473 on: July 07, 2018, 06:54:56 »
I was in an O'Group today, it was mention by the BSurg that a new interm Policy on direction for Clinicians to follow regarding categories was coming out shortly. Has anyone been told the same? If so, any idea on how this interm policy is going to be laid out?

The official Policy was supposed to be out in Dec/ Jan time frame
What you are referring to falls under a review of the Universality of Service policy, which itself is part of much larger The Journey project. The intent of modifying U of S is to allow personnel with certain MELs to continue to serve - rather than medically releasing them, as would have previously occurred. This review should be completed by end-2018, but DMCA has already made changes to their AR/MEL processes (as noted above).

The Journey, being led by a MGen COS Strat from MilPersCom, is reviewing the entire suite of policies/compensation from Enrollment-to Release-and post release.

Offline Tcm621

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Re: Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread
« Reply #474 on: July 07, 2018, 11:32:04 »
If that is the case, then rather than allow him to defer maybe the CM should remind him of the consequences of posting avoidance. I totally agree, you can't have your cake and eat it too. When people like this are accommodated for no real reason. It has a ripple effect. Rather than create a hole at the old rank which could be filled as per the CMs plan. Maybe a member really needs a CCM to that spot, which now can't be filled.



Not sure how you're even reading that anything in these instances was "under the table", it was all above board with the chains of command and the CM involved. 

The choices to the members were simple, be promoted and posted or decline the promotion and stay in situ.  As PuckChaser pointed out, they were still liable for posting anyway if they declined the promotion simply to try to avoid a posting but the "deal" was they wouldn't be and they would be left in place for at least one more year.  An "under the table deal" would have been something along the lines of promoting the member and letting them sit in a MMO position while another unit went vacant at a key command team rank, while they stayed in location without an actual job to do.

As for why they would give up a promotion they earned, it's pretty simple. They were the ones asking not to be moved to accommodate a family situation.  As a reminder, every rank change instruction states, "THIS PROMOTION IS CONDITIONAL UPON THE MEMBER ACTUALLY CARRYING OUT THE ASSIGNED DUTIES AT THE HIGHER RANK AND AT SUCH PLACE WHERE THE SERVICE REQUIREMENT EXISTS".  If a member is asking for special consideration and part of that makes them unable to meet that simple requirement, they shouldn't expect to be promoted.

Ref your idea about compassionate status...  This makes the member ineligible for promotion so they'd have to move first in order to be promoted anyway and then try to get a compassionate posting back to that location.