Author Topic: The Martial Arts Superthread  (Read 51178 times)

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2005, 22:57:43 »
I think tae kwon doe is geared more towards sports and less on self defense.

I found while I was in taekwondo that there was a big rush to get people to black belt. Lots of rules too in sparing like no punching in the face.   I got used to that and when I started boxing with some of my buddies i was getting hit in the face a lot because i was so used to not having to defend against that.

For self defense and what soldiers do I think aikido is great.
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Offline paracowboy

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2005, 00:35:16 »
I think tae kwon doe is geared more towards sports and less on self defense.
depends on the style and instructor. WTF is very sport oriented. Especially in the cookie-cutter,money-making dojangs found scattered throughout suburbia, along with Starbucks'n'bucks-for-a-cup-of-freakin'-coffee! My tae kwon do teacher was a li'l Vietnamese dude who was interested in teaching you how to fight, how to survive, and how to arrest/subdue/kill an assailant.

Quote
For self defense and what soldiers do I think aikido is great.
too complicated and takes too long to become proficient. Simplicity is key. Gross motor movements. Lots of contact.
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Offline Kat Stevens

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2005, 00:39:16 »
Gracey jiu jutsu is the way to go. brutal, fast, and effective
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline TCBF

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2005, 00:40:52 »
I thought the Red Army practiced 'sambo'?

Who was the Canadian who taught the S.O.E. during WW2, and what was the system he developed?

Tom
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Offline Hatchet Man

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2005, 00:50:19 »
I thought the Red Army practiced 'sambo'?

Who was the Canadian who taught the S.O.E. during WW2, and what was the system he developed?

Tom

They probably did to some extent.  Systema "The System" was/is used by the special forces units.  If you are going to practice martial arts for possible use in the military, pick one that would allow you to actually fight wearing all your kit.  Those high flying TKD kicks aren't going to do much good when you are wearing 50lbs of gear.

Offline paracowboy

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2005, 01:04:28 »
despite the recent marketing ploys, Systema is Samo Obrovna (Sambo). Which is why it's so bloody effective.


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Offline Kernewek

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2005, 03:19:37 »
If someone coulod answer this, I would be greatly thankful. Just out of curiosity, what Martial Art would you, impartially recommend? I had been thinking of taking up Tae-Kwon-Do, but my schedule got in the way. However, interest (and desire) still remain. For the record, I have no prior experience in Martial Arts and combatives.

Who was the Canadian who taught the S.O.E. during WW2, and what was the system he developed?

Are you thinking of Mr. Underwood? Here's a post done by someone who works for him (well a company which offers Underwood's techniques): http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,32428.0.html
enjoy.

"As Orwell pointed out in 1944, Burnham was typical of the intellectual who acquired his reputation by predicting the continuation of whatever seems to be going on."

Offline TCBF

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2005, 03:24:28 »
I was thinking about Mr Bill Underwood, who started developing "Combato" in 1907, fought in WW1, trained SOE in Combato in WW2, softened it to 'Defendo" in 1945, and passed that on to a guy who teaches it in toronto today.

As to which one to use, you got me.  I no nothing of such stuff.

Tom
"Disarming the Canadian public is part of the new humanitarian social agenda."   - Foreign Affairs Minister Lloyd Axeworthy at a Gun Control conference in Oslo, Norway in 1998.


"I didn’t feel that it was an act of violence; you know, I felt that it was an act of liberation, that’s how I felt you know." - Ann Hansen, Canadian 'Urban Guerrilla'(one of the "Squamish Five")

Offline WB

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2005, 03:33:42 »
Quote
I've been training the Russian Martial Art in Hamilton and Toronto on and off for the last year and a half and I find it to be very good. Its a ancient russian martial art that is utilized by the Spetznaz and other Russian special forces. I'll post the site and if anyone around the areas of the schools are interested i suggest you take a class or two to check it out. Its good, cheap and pretty relaxed atmosphere.

 http://www.russianmartialart.com

This past winter my CQC/MMA club in Petawawa made the trip down to Toronto for a private lesson under Mr Vasiliev. It was an interesting experience to say the least. Some of the techniques looked a little hokey, especially if you're watching the videos on the website where he takes on 5 guys at a time. But the other stuff is VERY effective. In all, I'd say it was a highlight of my time with the club.

Quote
If someone coulod answer this, I would be greatly thankful. Just out of curiosity, what Martial Art would you, impartially recommend?

I'd recommend Muay Thai kickboxing and Brazillian (AKA Gracie) Jiu Jutsu. Thai kickboxing covers a wider range of stand up fighting when compared to other styles of kickboxing (Knees, elbows, and clinching) BJJ focuses on groundwork. For military purposes these arts would need to be adapted for the bulk of bodyarmour and the use of weapons, but IMHO the buildingblocks are there.

Offline Island Ryhno

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2005, 07:05:06 »
Your Martial Art style depends on your instructor, if they are traditionalist or sport types, then they are mostly ineffective when it comes to actual fighting. When you go to check out a dojo in your choice of martial art, ask for a free session or two, ask if they teach based on sport or tradition or combat, then decide for yourself. The best mixed martial artists in the world adapt the things taught in different martial arts to a usefull style of their own. To say one style is better than the other is just opinion. I've done Judo, BJJ, TKD, Jeet Kune Do, Kali/Escrima and wing chun. Depends on what you want. I've found the best mix to be Judo (if you can get someone to teach it in combat style) BJJ and Jeet Kune Do or Wing Chun. The best of grappling and striking. And it should be part of regular PT, anyone here who has grappled for an hour can tell you it's as good as any time spent lifting weights or running.
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Offline Springroll

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2005, 09:00:06 »
Both my hubby and I think that a martial arts program would be awesome for the CF, especially if it was made a part of the regular PT program and is utilised by those that could really use it. Him being on ship, it would be hard to use it, but for any trade that requires any sort of soldier qualification, it would be greatly beneficial to teach them even the most basic of moves. My hubby trained in Ju Jitsu(sp?) for many years before joining the CF and said that it is definitely an effective martial art, provided that you properly use what is taught.
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Offline Zarathustra

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2005, 09:08:03 »
I'm in the recruiting process and it's a bit slow for me so to keep busy I started studying Senshido. (www.senshido.com) It's not a traditional martial art, it's a mix of whatever works from other martial arts. We do Muay Thai Kickboxing for PT/sport and Senshido for self-defense. We do a lot talking trying to de-escalate conflict and avoid fighting. But if we can't avoid it then we go for the eyes, throat, balls, we bite, etc. It's really not sport. They teach the legal and psychological aspects too. Their philosophy is if someone attacks you they basically sign a big disclaimer stating they accept all the physical risk associated with this kind of activity. So whatever works against them you're allowed to use it.

I only started like a month ago but so far I like it. There's a lot of information on the website if you're curious.
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Offline paracowboy

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2005, 09:49:24 »
Zartan,
the eternal quest to master the elusive art of the sukiyaki nose-toss is highly individualistic. As the High and Exalted One, Bruce Jun Fan Lee stated "Your Way is not my Way". (Actually Brucie was ripping off Krishnamurti, but I digress. Again.)

What style to study depends entirely on your personality, body-type, location, finances, and goals. If you like full-contact, no-nonsense ***-kickery, then look into Muay Thai, MMA, Krav Maga, Boxing, etc.
If you like the quasi-spiritual, emotional quest for self-perfection, then one of the more Traditional Japanese styles, may work.
If you like the artistic beauty of the forms, look into Chinese styles. Or Capoeria.
If you want to master the use of realistic weaponry, look into Phillipino/Malaysian systems.

Are you tall and skinny? Try Tae Kwon Do. Are you short and squat? Try Judo or wrestling.

My advice? Find every martial arts school in the phone book. Spend a week or two at each one, to try the style and instructor out. If you get a funky vibe, leave. If you don't like the student's behaviour, leave. If the instructor won't let you 'sample' the place, leave.
...time to cull the herd.

Offline PJ D-Dog

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2005, 10:42:59 »
I think that unarmed combat should be part of each units PT program. Of course this would take a huge cultural change in many of the units. I think it should be introduced at basic and continued through each level of training. This training would be reinforced at the unit level through competition and practise.

The younger troops enjoy the challenge and feel that they benefit from it. We need to make instructor courses readily available and then use the instructors for that purpose.

The Marine Corps has a martial arts program with a multiple belt level system.  Every recruit gets trained to the tan belt level during boot camp.  Once you rotate to the fleet, you eventually get trained to the grey belt level.  Some then move on to the green belt or attend the four week green belt instructor's course and become Marine Corps martial arts instructors.

The martial arts program is not excessively easy.  Marines are regularly injured while going through the different belt levels or just during practice.  In my shop, my Gunny and a Sgt were practicing ground fighting and the gunny accidently broke the Sgt's pinky finger which resulted in him having to wear a cast for three weeks.  This was not the intent but when you're rolling around on the grass with a 110 degree humidity index, hands and fingers tend to slip.

As for incorporating martial arts into PT, it depends on which unit you are with.  Not all Marines are trained to the same belt level nor do all of them have access to get trained to higher belt levels.  Martial arts is a perrishable skill.  If you don't use it, you'll loose it.

In my shop, two of us are working at getting our grey belt.  Our training consists of a two mile boots and uts with flack jacket run, some active recrovery and then into ground fighting for a few hours every other day.  We'll be done soon.  I'll try and find the Marine martial arts website and post the link.

PJ D-Dog
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Offline paracowboy

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2005, 10:53:36 »
from what I've seen of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children and their system of fisticuffs, it's a very well thought-out program. Sort of the same ideas taught by Fairbairn, Sykes, Applegate, and Co, but modernized for today's battlefield.
There is no reason on earth that the CF couldn't rip this idea off.
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Offline Mojo Magnum

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2005, 14:29:20 »

Ok guys, as a new recruit who loves martial arts,

I get the impression that hand to hand combat training is not as "front and center" in the CF as I had thought.

But, being forever the optimist I have observed that you all are not suffering from any shortage of martial arts awareness and thus I expect each of you could execute at least one deadly maneuver in a hurry if suddenly called upon.  Where did you attain the martial arts knowledge you possess?  On Army time or your time?

Hazaa!

Offline Island Ryhno

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2005, 14:32:37 »
Personal time, only unarmed I ever did on military time was pugil sticks. Oh and a couple of bare knuckles, but it was not sanctioned.  8)
"A young man who does not have what it takes to perform military service is not likely to have what it takes to make a living."
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Offline Kat Stevens

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2005, 14:33:46 »
Everything of any value, fighting wise, was learned on my time, my dime.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline paracowboy

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2005, 15:08:45 »
Everything of any value, fighting wise, was learned on my time, my dime.
ditto
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Offline Kernewek

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2005, 20:05:29 »
Thank you all!

I'm actually tall (6'4") and weigh 76 kg, though by no means skinny.  I've been leaning towards Taekwondo more for self improvement than practicality, and also due to an abundance of schools within walking distance of me (three, one of which is about a 10 minutes walk from my house). There is no presence of Krav Maga in Calgary, so unfortunately, that is out of the question, and only one school of Muay Thai.
Thanks again,
Zartan
"As Orwell pointed out in 1944, Burnham was typical of the intellectual who acquired his reputation by predicting the continuation of whatever seems to be going on."

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2005, 21:02:02 »
Quote
depends on the style and instructor. WTF is very sport oriented. Especially in the cookie-cutter,money-making dojangs found scattered throughout suburbia, along with Starbucks'n'bucks-for-a-cup-of-freakin'-coffee!

Very true. WTF was all about the sport aspect and competing.  That probably turned me off towards taekwondo as a self defense.

Good point about aikido. It's not something you learn in a few classes or a few years. You start learning Aikido after you've reached your black belt.  Some of the crap they do is amazing though, watching 6 guys get thrown around (without injury) is some serious control.

For soldiers of different sizes with different learning curves you'd want something simple and effecive.

If someone has the time for aikido it's a blast and makes you pretty hard to hit- just make sure you back it up with some type of ground fighting like judo or ju-jitsu
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Offline bobthebui|der

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2005, 21:10:34 »
A long time member from Russian martial Arts came into my Gym looking to try his hand at some Brazilian jiu-Jitsu, and thai kick boxing. he walked in, and had his @ss handed to him on the mat.

Now, with his experience with Russian Martial Arts AND about the most efficient grappling and submission skills available in Canada... he's a scary guy.

Our unit has done unofficial grappling and such after Ex's as a joke, and to be honest... it's kind of sad. Of all people in society, soldiers shouldnt be the least aggressive...
The true measure of a man is how well he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good

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Offline Delta

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2005, 22:45:12 »
Those high flying TKD kicks aren't going to do much good when you are wearing 50lbs of gear.
OMFG, hiliarious!!! I, too, have to say that it is more of sport than combat thing

if u want to do those feats pulled off by Tony Jaa (in a combat situation), remember, he didn't have his kit on

babicma, u dun happen to train at 'Fight Club' do you? i saw this Toronto tv magazine thing, where the show introduced this place that teaches Systema in a relaxed environment
« Last Edit: September 05, 2005, 22:49:46 by Delta »

Offline paracowboy

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2005, 22:51:04 »
well, in fairness to TKD, I've seen as many of it's stylists win scraps as any other system. Think about it: if someone can kick you in the head before you can stop it, how fast can he kick your knee?

It's not the style, it's the stylist. Anybody who tries to tell you that any system is automatically better than any other is either ignorant, or trying to sell you something.
...time to cull the herd.

Offline Island Ryhno

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Re: Military Martial Arts
« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2005, 22:58:29 »
Exactly. TKD is actually a great striking art IF you don't get caught up in the notion that the person you are fighting is going to do this or that. People with no formal martial arts training are dangerous foes, they just bull rush you, swinging and kicking and that is extremely hard to defend against. You have to remember it's a "defence" the idea being to keep them away from you. Also, a lot of the kicks and punches you see in Ultimate Fighter are derivetives of TKD and Boxing, it's called Muay Thai.
"A young man who does not have what it takes to perform military service is not likely to have what it takes to make a living."
-John F. Kennedy (JFK)