Author Topic: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation  (Read 84894 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline drunknsubmrnr

  • Semper in Excreto
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 12,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 554
FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« on: May 15, 2008, 11:34:22 »
Our frigates still stack favourably to most other nations frigates, they are a capable platform and once FELEX is underway wil continue to do an outstanding job for Canada and the Navy.

I wouldn't go quite that far.

The basic threat level has increased since the CPF was designed back in the early 1980's. Most of the newer frigates out there now have systems capable of dealing with those threats, while the FELEX FFH won't.

The FELEX program has more to do with industrial currency rather than combat system improvements. There should be a few system improvements, they just won't be enough to raise the system performance to the level required to meet projected high threat environments. Even medium threat environments are going to require increased risk tolerance.

If we had the money, we'd be far better off replacing the FFH with newer models and newer systems. We don't have the money, so we're doing what we can.

For what its worth, the FELEX FFH will probably be better equipped to meet the threats of the next 15 years than the Cadillacs were to meeting the threats of the 1980's.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 46,342
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,003
  • dealing with life not that active here anymore
FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2008, 11:38:11 »
And the last time you sailed was when? The last time you did any sort of operation was when? The last time you did any sort of exchange with a foreign navy and used their kit and saw it in action was when?
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline drunknsubmrnr

  • Semper in Excreto
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 12,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 554
FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2008, 11:47:24 »
2000 to the first two questions and most of the last.

However, once I left the CF I worked for a military R&D/consulting firm in the US. I did a lot of work on this type of issue there.

Was there something specific you wanted to address?

Offline Ex-Dragoon

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 46,342
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,003
  • dealing with life not that active here anymore
FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2008, 14:02:19 »
2000 to the first two questions and most of the last.

However, once I left the CF I worked for a military R&D/consulting firm in the US. I did a lot of work on this type of issue there.

Was there something specific you wanted to address?

You imply by your post that the CPFs cannot do their jobs and while they are not F100s or F124s they are still a very effective platform. To say otherwise is deceiving.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline drunknsubmrnr

  • Semper in Excreto
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 12,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 554
FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2008, 14:28:16 »
You imply by your post that the CPFs cannot do their jobs and while they are not F100s or F124s they are still a very effective platform. To say otherwise is deceiving.

I think you're reading into that a bit.

The CPF's will be able to do everything they do now as long as they're in a low to medium threat environment. The upgraded FELEX systems just plain won't be able to handle defence in a high threat environment, maybe certain medium threat environments. It's an artifact of the combat system architecture (SARH missiles with separate illuminators and conventional rotating MRR). I can show you exactly how that works if you'd like, but we should probably start another thread for that. The F-100 and F-124's use an entirely different combat system architecture (SARH missiles with either separate time-shared or combined illuminators and phased array radars) that's able to handle the projected high threat environment albeit at a high cost.

I suppose the FELEX CPF will be able to do its job well in a high threat environment as long as nobody's shooting at them, if that's what you're getting at.

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 190,705
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,535
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2008, 19:46:26 »
I think you're reading into that a bit.

The CPF's will be able to do everything they do now as long as they're in a low to medium threat environment. The upgraded FELEX systems just plain won't be able to handle defence in a high threat environment, maybe certain medium threat environments. It's an artifact of the combat system architecture (SARH missiles with separate illuminators and conventional rotating MRR). I can show you exactly how that works if you'd like, but we should probably start another thread for that. The F-100 and F-124's use an entirely different combat system architecture (SARH missiles with either separate time-shared or combined illuminators and phased array radars) that's able to handle the projected high threat environment albeit at a high cost.

I suppose the FELEX CPF will be able to do its job well in a high threat environment as long as nobody's shooting at them, if that's what you're getting at.

So are you saying FELEX is either a waste of time or CMS' guys got it wrong?  ???

Offline drunknsubmrnr

  • Semper in Excreto
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 12,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 554
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2008, 20:37:59 »
No, the CMS types are doing the best they can with what they have, and FELEX is definitely not a waste of time.

They're just not going to be able to upgrade the FFH enough to let them operate in a high-threat environment if somebody is shooting at them. If they weren't upgraded, they'd have problems with a low-threat environment.

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 190,705
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,535
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2008, 21:50:20 »
When you say the FELEX ships won't be able to operate in a high-threat environment, is that "high-threat" as defined in any referenced contemporary and/or future security environment?

The Navy apparently believes it's properly addressing the situation with FELEX...

Quote
In addition to the evolving threat, the operating environment for most current, and projected future, maritime operations has also changed. A change in operating profile from open-ocean conventional Anti-Submarine Warfare, Anti-Surface Warfare and convoy escort roles with NATO forces to sea control and denial operations in the littorals, in coalition with new partners, often in support of operations ashore, has been observed and experienced recently. Now found more in the littoral, the HALIFAX Class frigates are operating much closer to shore than was intended in their original design. This proximity to land exposes the ships to potential threats from coastal or inland attack and significantly diminishes the available reaction time to levels beyond the capabilities of the current systems. It also poses particular challenges to sensors and weapon systems and imposes geographical limitations on stationing and manoeuvring. Furthermore, this new operating environment requires that ships be capable of detecting advanced threats in the highly cluttered electro-magnetic environments found close to, and over, land. For HALIFAX Class ships to be participants in advanced Joint and Combined Operations they must possess the capabilities to build the Common Operational Picture (COP). This is necessary to provide the requisite level of situational awareness that will allow participation in the extensive and complex range of operations expected by the Navy in the future. Specifically, for radar systems, littoral operations command the capability to determine rapidly and accurately the complete characteristics (range, bearing, altitude, speed and IFF) of any targets and potential threats.

Perhaps they've missed seeing something that you caught?

G2G

Offline Cdn Blackshirt

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 13,225
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,407
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2008, 23:32:32 »
To Good2Golf and Ex-Dragoon,

Why is it you guys are making this personal?   ???

Frankly I think drunkensubmrnr has stated his opinion and provided his experience....after what was in essence a "Well WTF do you know?" challenge.

Bottom Line:  I'm never going to claim to be a naval arms expert, but there are more civil ways of debating the issue than what's being demonstrated in this thread.


Matthew.   :salute:

P.S.  To Good2Golf, I think the last 3 sentences of your quote highlight the fact that even Navy recognizes the limitations of the FELEX upgrade and seeks only to utilize it in high-threat environments as participants in a larger Joint Force.
IMPORTANT - 'Blackshirt' is a reference to Nebraska Cornhuskers Football and not naziism.   National Champions '70, '71, '94, '95 and '97.    Go Huskers!!!!

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 190,705
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,535
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2008, 00:12:05 »
Matthew, my comments aren't personal to drunknsubmrnr, I would ask the same thing of anyone who said the likes of:

....The upgraded FELEX systems just plain won't be able to handle defence in a high threat environment...

I am genuinely trying to understand what drunknsubmrnr is getting at with his attestation that FELEX can't survive in a high-threat environment, much less a medium-threat environment.  Any "chipiness" one can take from my query in Reply#5 comes from seeing people make what in my assessment are unjustified statements regarding the lack of capability of various systems.

Being a member of the junior service, I don't specifically have a dog in this fight.  However, as a member of the CF overall, which is a collection of joint capabilities that are chartered to operate in a range of threat environments, I take drunknsubmrnr's statements to the logical conclusion, that if he says FELEX won't be able to "operate in a high-threat environment if somebody is shooting at them", then what does he think FELEX will achieve...heck, he even questions whether they could operate in a low threat environment without upgrade:

Quote
If they weren't upgraded, they'd have problems with a low-threat environment.

As well, I think that you have misinterpreted the last sentences of the excerpt I quoted.   You are said that:
Quote
...even Navy recognizes the limitations of the FELEX upgrade and seeks only to utilize it in high-threat environments as participants in a larger Joint Force.


The passage says no such thing -- it states that the HALIFAX ships must be suitably equipped in order to properly build the COP.
Quote
For HALIFAX Class ships to be participants in advanced Joint and Combined Operations they must possess the capabilities to build the Common Operational Picture (COP).

You have added conditionality to FELEX's CONOP that in no way exists in the Navy's assessment.

Overall, you and drunknsubmrnr together seem to be heading towards painting FELEX as some kind of a lame duck that will be a drag on a Naval TF, vice a contribution.

Just so you don't jump on me for "widening the personalization" of this thread to include you, I can assure you that I am trying to understand where this assessment in FELEX's lack of capability to properly operate in the future security/operating environment is coming from.  Your input as well, although not as strongly stated at drunknsubmrnr indicates less understanding of FELEX than my friends in the Maritime Staff with whom I was just discussing FELEX with today.

Perhaps I'm right out of her, and FELEX will truly not be capable of operating in anything but a low-threat environment when the upgrades are complete?

I think not, however.

Regards
G2G

Offline drunknsubmrnr

  • Semper in Excreto
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 12,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 554
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2008, 08:55:08 »
When you say the FELEX ships won't be able to operate in a high-threat environment, is that "high-threat" as defined in any referenced contemporary and/or future security environment?

We reverse-engineered the projected threat environment by calculating the number of simultaneous interceptions that the common frigates could perform. That ranged from ~6 to ~16, maybe 32 depending on how much of the shiny brochures you believe. I don't have access to the threat specifications that those ships were designed to, but their capabilities range from 3 to 8 times that of the CPF.

Perhaps they've missed seeing something that you caught?

I very much doubt that. There's no way that they're unaware of the system limitations.

Notice that they never actually say in that section that they think the ships can deal with the threat once it's detected. As far as I know, every word in that section is correct. The overall impression that I get from that section is that everything is OK, but if you look at what's not being said the impression is different.

Offline drunknsubmrnr

  • Semper in Excreto
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 12,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 554
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2008, 09:27:11 »
I am genuinely trying to understand what drunknsubmrnr is getting at with his attestation that FELEX can't survive in a high-threat environment, much less a medium-threat environment.  Any "chipiness" one can take from my query in Reply#5 comes from seeing people make what in my assessment are unjustified statements regarding the lack of capability of various systems.

I'm greatly offended...not. Considering our standard response to naval aviation was mooning them, you're quite civil. ;)

Being a member of the junior service, I don't specifically have a dog in this fight.  However, as a member of the CF overall, which is a collection of joint capabilities that are chartered to operate in a range of threat environments, I take drunknsubmrnr's statements to the logical conclusion, that if he says FELEX won't be able to "operate in a high-threat environment if somebody is shooting at them", then what does he think FELEX will achieve.

Well, it'll be able to operate in a low to medium threat environment even if someone is shooting at them. That's got to be worth something.

..heck, he even questions whether they could operate in a low threat environment without upgrade:

I'm not questioning it. I'm stating flat out that it won't be able to operate in a low threat environment unless it's upgraded.

The major point behind FELEX is industrial currency, not capability improvement. The parts used in the current combat system are very hard to supply, leading to a lot of systems being down a lot of the time, and its getting worse. Without replacement by something we can actually get parts for, most of the defensive systems won't be operable. That puts even low threat environments out of reach.

The passage says no such thing -- it states that the HALIFAX ships must be suitably equipped in order to properly build the COP.

Sure. They shouldn't have any siginificant issues in building the COP, or in detecting threats. However, they're going to some severe issues dealing with threats once they're identified.

Overall, you and drunknsubmrnr together seem to be heading towards painting FELEX as some kind of a lame duck that will be a drag on a Naval TF, vice a contribution.

Only in a high threat environment where they're being shot at. Maybe some medium threat environments. As I said, it's better than the Cadillac situation was in the 1980's. Low threat environments were marginal for those platforms at that time.

Just so you don't jump on me for "widening the personalization" of this thread to include you, I can assure you that I am trying to understand where this assessment in FELEX's lack of capability to properly operate in the future security/operating environment is coming from.  Your input as well, although not as strongly stated at drunknsubmrnr indicates less understanding of FELEX than my friends in the Maritime Staff with whom I was just discussing FELEX with today.

Just ask your friends on the Maritime Staff how many threats a CPF can simultaneously engage, before and after FELEX. The correct answer is 2. The other NATO frigates being built now range from 6 to 16.

Perhaps I'm right out of her, and FELEX will truly not be capable of operating in anything but a low-threat environment when the upgrades are complete?

A FELEX FFH should be able to operate in most medium threat environments as near as I can tell. Where are you getting the low-threat after upgrade thing?

Offline Harley Sailor

  • Member
  • ****
  • 2,825
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 192
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2008, 10:42:05 »
It's great when so many people talk like experts on subjects they are not fully informed on.  For instance the FELEX program and the HCM program are two separate projects.  The FELEX is to modernise the Ship, where the HCM is to modernise the Combat Systems.

Second thing is, have we looked at the task of the CPF before analyzing weather it is capable of doing it's job.

Offline drunknsubmrnr

  • Semper in Excreto
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 12,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 554
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2008, 11:11:01 »
For instance the FELEX program and the HCM program are two separate projects.  The FELEX is to modernise the Ship, where the HCM is to modernise the Combat Systems.

HCM isn't a project, it's a concept. FELEX is the overall project to implement the HCM concept, although there are separate subprojects underneath FELEX such as HMCCS and the Radar Upgrade project. In these cases, FELEX is responsible for integrating the subproject into the overall plan.

Offline Harley Sailor

  • Member
  • ****
  • 2,825
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 192
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2008, 12:57:52 »
HCM isn't a project, it's a concept. FELEX is the overall project to implement the HCM concept, although there are separate subprojects underneath FELEX such as HMCCS and the Radar Upgrade project. In these cases, FELEX is responsible for integrating the subproject into the overall plan.

All I will say to that is that we have had different briefs.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 46,342
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,003
  • dealing with life not that active here anymore
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2008, 13:09:42 »
All I will say to that is that we have had different briefs.

Agreed...but HS what do we know, we only sail onboard everyday and have been involved in Ops using the CPFs and 280s. These guys know whats going on more then we do. ::)
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

aesop081

  • Guest
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2008, 13:48:34 »
It's great when so many people talk like experts on subjects they are not fully informed on. 

been in the AF boards lately ?

Offline drunknsubmrnr

  • Semper in Excreto
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 12,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 554
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2008, 13:50:46 »
Quote
Modernized HALIFAX Class Background
The relationship between the HALIFAX Class Modernization (HCM) and the FELEX Project is important to understand.

The HCM can be thought of as a vision, which has been transposed into a written document, titled The Modernized HALIFAX Class Statement of Operational Requirement (SOR). Some of t he projects and sustainment activities needed to ensure the HALIFAX class operational effectiveness throughout the second half of its' life are listed below :

The FELEX project is primarily a risk mitigation project to ensure that the modernization of the HALIFAX Class is achieved in a timely, efficient, effective and coordinated manner. FELEX will manage to varying degrees, from total project responsibility to installation responsibility only, all work elements in the HCM. As the Design Integration Authority for the HCM, FELEX is responsible for the ship level design integration of all elements of the HCM including any unique/specific engineering changes required to address integration requirements. Effective risk mitigation will be achieved through the following specific activities: scope management, design integration engineering, integrated risk management across all elements of the HCM, schedule coordination, and implementation/installation management.

Capability Enhancement projects will implement new capabilities into the ships which are required to meet the new threats and changing operating environments (not all listed). These Capability Enhancement projects are either Stand-Alone (SA) projects with their own funding and Project Management group or are inherent in the FELEX Project.
HMCCS - Halifax Modernized Command and Control System
HALIFAX Class Radar UpgradeS
IRIUS - Long-range infrared search and track system
ESSM - Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile
IFF Mode S/5 - Interrogator Friend or Foe Mode S/5


Integral FELEX Projects:


Internal Communications System Upgrade;
Harpoon Missile System Upgrade; and
Electronic Warfare System upgrade – Electronic Support Measures.

Maintenance and sustainment activities and projects will strive to maintain equipment at its current level of capability.
•  Mid-life refit

•  Preventive, corrective and unique mid-life
   maintenance activities

•  Sustainment engineering changes (not all listed)

•  Modifications to the BOFORS 57mm Naval
   Gun
•  Replacement of the Shield II Missile Decoy Countermeasures System
•  Replacement of the Integrated Machinery Control System
•  Replacement of the Navigation Radar

Non Navy projects to accommodate the new Maritime Helicopter and the new Military Satellite Communication System.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admmat/dgmepm/pmofelex/halifax_e.asp

Maybe the FELEX site is wrong and your brief was right.

Quote
These guys know whats going on more then we do.

Have either of you ever taken the CPF or TRUMP fire control course? Or done any OJT on the CPF or TRUMP FC systems?

Offline Ex-Dragoon

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 46,342
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,003
  • dealing with life not that active here anymore
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2008, 13:58:55 »
oh yes the sum of the ship is its FC system.... ::) Very crucial, yes but the whole CCS is what makes or breaks a ship in combat.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline drunknsubmrnr

  • Semper in Excreto
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 12,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 554
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2008, 14:12:19 »
I agree, and that's why I said the ship would be fine as long as someone isn't shooting at it.

If someone is shooting at it, that FC system is going to become very important, and it's going to have significant issues with some medium threats or all high threats.



Offline Ex-Dragoon

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 46,342
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,003
  • dealing with life not that active here anymore
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2008, 14:21:26 »
I agree, and that's why I said the ship would be fine as long as someone isn't shooting at it.

If someone is shooting at it, that FC system is going to become very important, and it's going to have significant issues with some medium threats or all high threats.




Thats why we travel in a TG so other ships can assist when needed. Somedays someone will realize we need a combat system like Aegis.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline Harley Sailor

  • Member
  • ****
  • 2,825
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 192
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2008, 14:36:02 »

Have either of you ever taken the CPF or TRUMP fire control course? Or done any OJT on the CPF or TRUMP FC systems?

Well, let me think back, I've been with the CPF project since 1989.  At the moment I am instructing CPF weapon systems.

Offline drunknsubmrnr

  • Semper in Excreto
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 12,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 554
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2008, 14:41:21 »
Well, let me think back, I've been with the CPF project since 1989.  At the moment I am instructing CPF weapon systems.

OK. Then you know why the CPF is limited to 2 simultaneous engagements? (Not counting the CIWS)

aesop081

  • Guest
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2008, 15:23:18 »
Freindly OPSEC reminder.....

Milnet.ca staff

Offline Harley Sailor

  • Member
  • ****
  • 2,825
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 192
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2008, 16:15:58 »
OK. Then you know why the CPF is limited to 2 simultaneous engagements? (Not counting the CIWS)

Again you need to look at the role of the CPF before talking about it's defence. 

You need to ask why would a CPF be under attack from multi threat. Does the enemy usually attack a patrol ship or the main body.  That would be like using your team to take out the recon team and giving your position away.  Don't you try to slip by the patrols to attack the main body.