Author Topic: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation  (Read 84898 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 190,755
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,538
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2008, 23:24:15 »

..heck, he even questions whether they could operate in a low threat environment without upgrade:

I'm not questioning it. I'm stating flat out that it won't be able to operate in a low threat environment unless it's upgraded.


A self-acknowledged "flat out" statement by you, followed a few lines later by this question of yours in response to my statement...


Perhaps I'm right out of her, and FELEX will truly not be capable of operating in anything but a low-threat environment when the upgrades are complete?

A FELEX FFH should be able to operate in most medium threat environments as near as I can tell. Where are you getting the low-threat after upgrade thing?



Ummmm....the answer to your question in the second highlighted text, is your response to my query in the first highlighted text.  I'm getting the "low-threat after upgrade" bit directly from you.  That is what you're asking me in the second highlight, right?  ???

I'm now losing the bubble...what is your position on low-threat after upgrade?

Offline drunknsubmrnr

  • Semper in Excreto
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 12,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 554
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2008, 08:35:02 »
Quote
I'm getting the "low-threat after upgrade" bit directly from you.

No, I said it won't be able to operate in a low threat environment unless it's upgraded. I said it would be able to operate in a low to medium threat environment once it's upgraded.

Offline Cdn Blackshirt

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 13,225
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,407
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2008, 16:29:47 »
drunknsubmrnr,

A quick favour....without getting into too much OPSEC stuff on FELEX, can you elaborate on what enemy systems you believe contribute to a "High Threat Environment", and which systems on other naval platforms are required to neutralize/eliminate those threats.


Many thanks in advance,  Matthew.   :salute:
IMPORTANT - 'Blackshirt' is a reference to Nebraska Cornhuskers Football and not naziism.   National Champions '70, '71, '94, '95 and '97.    Go Huskers!!!!

Offline Grizzly

  • New Member
  • **
  • 230
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 26
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2008, 20:12:32 »
Was the Halifax class EVER designed to fight in high threat engagements by itself? I had assumed that in any real shooting war that the Halifax's would have to be grouped with a Tribal class in order to grant the task group sufficient area defense. From what I understood, the Halifax has good short range defense systems but can't really deal with a high saturation attack by itself. Am I wrong? Would FELEX change this?

Offline drunknsubmrnr

  • Semper in Excreto
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 12,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 554
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2008, 17:13:16 »
Quote
A quick favour....without getting into too much OPSEC stuff on FELEX, can you elaborate on what enemy systems you believe contribute to a "High Threat Environment", and which systems on other naval platforms are required to neutralize/eliminate those threats.

Without getting into specifics, there have been a lot of supersonic systems developed in the last few years. There have also been a lot of the older subsonic systems built. A "High Threat" environment would involve a lot of the newer systems, although you could also have more of the older systems.

Other navies have developed systems like the APAR/SM-2 or the Herakles/Aster systems to deal with large numbers of high-speed missiles. The USN Aegis system has also been adapted for smaller ships.



Offline drunknsubmrnr

  • Semper in Excreto
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 12,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 554
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2008, 17:18:53 »
Was the Halifax class EVER designed to fight in high threat engagements by itself? I had assumed that in any real shooting war that the Halifax's would have to be grouped with a Tribal class in order to grant the task group sufficient area defense. From what I understood, the Halifax has good short range defense systems but can't really deal with a high saturation attack by itself. Am I wrong? Would FELEX change this?

The Halifax was meant to be deployed into high threat areas in conjunction with TRUMPs. However, that was back in the early 80's. The threats have developed enough since then that being deployed with an AAW ship isn't enough any more. AAW ships have issues of their own in dealing with threats against ships that they aren't directly guarding. Normally there are only enough AAW ships to guard the high value units, not the frigates.

FELEX should help with saturation attacks, but it's not going to be more than an incremental improvement. Everyone else has gone to major improvements through new systems and ships.



Offline drunknsubmrnr

  • Semper in Excreto
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 12,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 554
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2008, 09:57:22 »
When you say the FELEX ships won't be able to operate in a high-threat environment, is that "high-threat" as defined in any referenced contemporary and/or future security environment?

Apparently the CF version is "Threat to Canada's Maritime Forces - A Look to 2025". As referenced in section 2.3.1.1 of the JSS SOR.

Offline MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 63,345
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,093
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2010, 12:07:34 »
Start of major piece in Defense Industry Daily:

Modernizing Canada’s Halifax Class Frigates   
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Modernizing-Canadas-Halifax-Class-Frigates-05062/

Quote
Launched between 1988-1995, and commissioned between 1992-1996, Canada’s 12 City Class (now Halifax Class) frigates currently form the high end of its naval capabilities. The Canadian Navy has declined drastically from its post-WWII status as the world’s 4th largest navy, and the Halifax Class itself is finding that its open-ocean design is not suited to cope with modern littoral threats and improving anti-ship missiles. Replacement vessels are still many years away, which means that the 4,750t frigates will need to be modernized within the limits of their design if they are to remain effective.

Canada’s government has decided to fund that modernization, much as Australia and New Zealand are modernizing the Halifax Class’ ANZAC Frigate contemporaries. Refits are scheduled to begin with HMCS Halifax in 2010, and that ship is scheduled to re-enter service about 18 months later in 2012. By 2017, all 12 frigates are scheduled to be upgraded as part of a C$ 3.1 billion (about $2.9 billion) program. This DII Spotlight article explains the scope of the upgrades, notes the current systems, and covers the contracts and developments involved…

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Pat in Halifax

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 32,860
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 906
  • Jackwagon
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2010, 12:26:05 »
I am disappointed I missed this thread first time around - looked like a good old fashioned street brawl in the makings! For anyone who cares, with the exception of monitoring, the MSE changes incorporated into HCM/FELEX are SQUAT. I suppose we are holding our own wrt the first 2 of Float, Move, Fight!!
"No ******* ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb ******* die for his"
George S. Patton

Offline STONEY

  • Member
  • ****
  • 6,370
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 190
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2010, 14:15:25 »
One thing i've noticed in all the discussion of Felex  update is NO discussion at all of anti-submarine at all.
Have subs dissappeared from the equation alltogether.  Is the Halifax class soldiering on with sonar that was onboard
modernized Restigouche class ships 30 years ago or was a new HMS installed that i missed or has CANTASS replaced HMS.

aesop081

  • Guest
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2010, 14:23:48 »
or has CANTASS replaced HMS.

If thats the case, we're truely screwed for the future.

Offline Occam

    Go RRRRRRRREDBLACKS!

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 92,985
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,004
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2010, 15:18:53 »
If thats the case, we're truely screwed for the future.

Care to elaborate?  You can't be suggesting that we go pinging active sonar all the time...CANTASS was pretty good the last time I saw it used, and I can only assume it's improved since then.

aesop081

  • Guest
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2010, 15:30:23 »
Care to elaborate?

I'm afraid that i cant elaborate without going into things that dont belong in an open forum. I'm sure you understand.

That being said, the days of passive tracking are almost at an end. Get used to active and new technologies.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 15:40:56 by CDN Aviator »

Offline Ex-Dragoon

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 46,342
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,003
  • dealing with life not that active here anymore
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2010, 15:49:48 »
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Modernizing-Canadas-Halifax-Class-Frigates-05062/

does not look like any updates or upgrades to either the CANTASS or HMS.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline drunknsubmrnr

  • Semper in Excreto
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 12,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 554
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2010, 10:09:39 »
Quote
Is the Halifax class soldiering on with sonar that was onboard
modernized Restigouche class ships 30 years ago or was a new HMS installed that i missed or has CANTASS replaced HMS.

I'm pretty sure the IRE's never had SQS-510 in either HMS or VDS. They definitely didn't have the -510 in 1980.

An active towed array was considered for FELEX but dropped on cost.

FELEX is focussed on replacing kit that is no longer industrially supportable with equivalents that are supportable. For the most part, the ships after FELEX won't be able to do much more than a current City class can do, they'll just be able to do it more reliably.


Offline saltymike

  • Guest
  • *
  • 610
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2010, 20:39:23 »
Both the Iroquois class and the Halifax class have 510s in various configurations.

The Iroquois class has a hull-mounted 510 and VDS 510 (at least the TRUMPed ones do).  The Halifax class has the hull-mounted 510 - I think that since they have the CANTASS, there is no room for a VDS 510.

The 510s seem to be doing well (correct me if I'm wrong), so maybe that's why no replacement as of yet.

Offline Chunks

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 2,740
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 57
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2010, 07:32:19 »
VDS was removed a long time ago from the IRO Class, they are all sitting on pallets rusting in from of FMF. The equipment spaces are used for storage or a nice place to hide and take a nap. As far as I know, there is no plan to acquire anything similar. 

Offline Occam

    Go RRRRRRRREDBLACKS!

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 92,985
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,004
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2010, 08:52:00 »
VDS was removed a long time ago from the IRO Class, they are all sitting on pallets rusting in from of FMF. The equipment spaces are used for storage or a nice place to hide and take a nap. As far as I know, there is no plan to acquire anything similar.

So endeth the "Captain's getaway submarine" tales to naive ship's tour guests.   :)

Offline STONEY

  • Member
  • ****
  • 6,370
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 190
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2010, 20:04:55 »
SQS-510 is merly an uprated SQS-505 (more solid state) which was carried on IRE'S

During a recent tour of a IRO class a crewman showed me the garbage storage area where the VDS 510 had been removed. he stated it was because they now had Nixie (ha ha) which did a better job.

Vds a Canadian invention was touted as the greatest invention since sliced bread that could detect submarines at far greater ranges than HMS and do it below thermal layers.  What?  there are no more thermal barriers.

Recently a Canadian company won a multi million dollar contract to supply the Dutch Navy with the latest Active Towed Aray Sonar (you know the type that was too expensive for FELEX).

Many NATO frigates have updated their Sonars some twice since we fielded the 510.
This is only one sensor so it would seem, that its what we can sell to the GOV & the unwashed masses rather  rathed than whats the best available.



Offline drunknsubmrnr

  • Semper in Excreto
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 12,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 554
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2010, 12:56:59 »
The SQS-510 has about the same relationship to the SQS-505 as the SPS-502 had to the SPS-10 ie not a whole lot in common other than the antenna/transducer. Re-using those tends to keep the cost down, but the important bits are all new.

Most of the cost of a warship is in it's combat systems. The entire budget for FELEX is about the same as for one new destroyer, and it has to buy and install systems for twelve ships. There just isn't enough money to add many new capabilities, they're having to struggle to just keep the old ones working. I think they're doing a pretty good job considering their constraints.

Offline Lex Parsimoniae

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 15,910
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 253
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2010, 17:14:35 »
One thing i've noticed in all the discussion of Felex  update is NO discussion at all of anti-submarine at all.
Have subs dissappeared from the equation alltogether.  Is the Halifax class soldiering on with sonar that was onboard
modernized Restigouche class ships 30 years ago or was a new HMS installed that i missed or has CANTASS replaced HMS.
The Canada First Defence Strategy only called for "a new command and control system, new radar capability, a new electronic warfare system and upgraded communications and missiles. Separate refit and stand-alone projects will include installation of new mechanical systems and modifications to accommodate the new Cyclone helicopters and a new military satellite communications system."

Offline NavyShooter

    Boaty McBoatface!

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 177,481
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,863
  • Death from a Bar.....one shot, one Tequilla
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2010, 11:04:57 »
As a SONAR techie, I'm watching with interest.....any more OPEN SOURCE insight on what they're planning to do with my kit?

NS
Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Offline Occam

    Go RRRRRRRREDBLACKS!

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 92,985
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,004
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2010, 11:50:33 »
As a SONAR techie, I'm watching with interest.....any more OPEN SOURCE insight on what they're planning to do with my kit?

NS

Some of it is being upgraded...



 ;D

Offline NavyShooter

    Boaty McBoatface!

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 177,481
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,863
  • Death from a Bar.....one shot, one Tequilla
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2010, 11:40:36 »
PING!!!!!!!

That's my addiction fixed....for those who know my e-mail address (personal) this is an even more amuzing addendum...

NS
Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Offline Lineman

  • Guest
  • *
  • 210
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 22
Re: FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation
« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2012, 12:50:44 »
Sorry for reviving an old thread but this seems the most relevant place to post.

Links to Halifax Shipping news re: recent photos of HMCS Halifax and her visible upgrades

http://blog.halifaxshippingnews.ca/2012/06/halifax-class-mid-life-refit-update.html

http://blog.halifaxshippingnews.ca/2012/06/more-of-hmcs-halifax.html

http://blog.halifaxshippingnews.ca/2012/06/hmcs-halifax-back-to-dockyard.html