Author Topic: Apaches  (Read 42553 times)

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Offline ringo

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Apaches
« on: June 11, 2008, 10:41:47 »
US intends to sell 260 Block 1 Apaches, South Korea considering buying 36, would Canada be interested in used Apaches?

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2008, 10:50:26 »
No?
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Offline SF2

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2008, 10:51:33 »
I'll take em.....
Just gotta clear out my garage first.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2008, 10:58:35 »
I can hear the cries of woe emanating from Taliban Jack and his "Defence" critic, Dawn "Black Ace" Black:

"What? Helicopters? In Canada? with guns?"
or from the Liberals:

"We don't need these Cadillac helicopters"
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

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Offline Fireball

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2008, 13:50:27 »
It'd be an interesting purchase for Canada.  We can see a direct application to our mission in Afghanistan but what happens afterwards?  The majority of our operations outside of Canada are of a peaceful nature.  Also - how effective are they with homeland defence?  At least with CF-18s we can guard the air anywhere.

I like the thought of it and it would be cool to have Canadian gunships, however, I don't think we need them for national security - international security, YES!!

J

Offline Technoviking

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2008, 13:53:15 »
It'd be an interesting purchase for Canada.  We can see a direct application to our mission in Afghanistan but what happens afterwards?  The majority of our operations outside of Canada are of a peaceful nature.  
Where on Earth have you been?  Anytime we send the MILITARY overseas, it's not because things are fine.  It's because there is or has been a war.  Sometimes we are belligerents, sometimes not, but in every case (mostly every case) we are armed.  This does NOT mean that AH-64s would be needed on every mission, but the same goes for every piece of kit we have: we only take what we need. 
So, there I was....

Offline Fireball

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2008, 14:00:01 »
Let me qualify my statement.  Aside from Afghanistan (and exchange staff in Iraq) we are not in a frontal offensive position.  Most of our international work "right now" may be in war zones but we are running under the auspice of peace.  I doubt we'd need Apaches in natural disaster areas to protect our humanitarian efforts.  I'm all for the purchase but I am trying to be logical.

J

aesop081

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2008, 14:03:03 »
Let me qualify my statement.  Aside from Afghanistan (and exchange staff in Iraq) we are not in a frontal offensive position.  Most of our international work "right now" may be in war zones but we are running under the auspice of peace.  I doubt we'd need Apaches in natural disaster areas to protect our humanitarian efforts.  I'm all for the purchase but I am trying to be logical.

J

Well, first few weeks of the Kosovo mission we sure needed AH-64s, i'm glad the americans had them around.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2008, 14:09:24 »
The majority of our operations outside of Canada are of a peaceful nature. 

Even if you are only referring to a mission where the DART is deployed, the ability to escort humanitarian aid and protect the aid and aid givers on the ground from the human vultures who would rob or otherwise interfere with the mission should not be discounted. (Read Blackhawk Down to see how a mission which started off as humanitarian relief went south rather quickly).

New capabilities provide new opportunities as well; consider one of the reasons we are purchasing UAV's is to provide airborn sensor platforms which can be used to direct fire and other effects. An AH-64 Apache has a powerful sensor suite, a human operator on board to interpret the images and a weapons package to exploit the imagery if needed. A useful analogy would be: its time for you to go to Home Depot to pick up enough flooring to redo your kitchen and living room. Do you want to drive down in your Honda Civic, or would you rather go with a pickup truck? If we take this option we now have a "pickup truck" in the parking lot for the special needs.
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Online Kat Stevens

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2008, 14:22:40 »
Where on Earth have you been?  Anytime we send the MILITARY overseas, it's not because things are fine.  It's because there is or has been a war.  Sometimes we are belligerents, sometimes not, but in every case (mostly every case) we are armed.  This does NOT mean that AH-64s would be needed on every mission, but the same goes for every piece of kit we have: we only take what we need. 

It would sure be nice to have a couple sitting in sea cans with "open in case of excremental impact to rotary oscillator" painted on the side in big friendly letters.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

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 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline Colin P

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2008, 16:56:48 »
If the Conservatives had a majority, I could see them eying this sale, but with a minority they won't touch it, just from the optics it would give the Libs and the NDP a chance to paint them as heartless warmongers, complete with youtube video of people getting blasted on the thermals.

It certainly would change the direction of the Air force and we would likely have to ditch most of the Griffions to find the people to fly and fix them.

Offline ringo

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2008, 10:52:37 »
 British Apaches have a folding blade mechanism for shipboard storage to support amphibian operations.
 IMO Apaches would be good for CAF, besides escort recce and fire support missions, a foldable rotor would enable Apaches to be embarked in new JSS or even aboard a frigate/destroyer for littoral operations.
 Could Apaches be adapted to naval helicopter hauldown equipment.

Offline geo

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2008, 11:01:55 »
Let's face it..... if we have Chinooks & intend to move personnel and material via those means.... we need something to ride shotgun!

If we have trucks that are following highways that run through "Injun country" we need something to ride shotgun!

Not to have em would be irresponsible and downright negligent ..... IMHO

Get one or two Doz - for use by CEFCOM and SOFCOM
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Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2008, 11:12:02 »
Let me qualify my statement.  Aside from Afghanistan (and exchange staff in Iraq) we are not in a frontal offensive position. 

J

I might be taking this a little far, but your statement is somewhat like referring to the 1940s and saying "Aside from the European Theatre of Operations we are not in a frontal offensive position."
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Offline Loachman

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2008, 11:14:14 »
Could Apaches be adapted to naval helicopter hauldown equipment.

It would be simpler and cheaper to add sensors and a suitable weapon package to an existing Naval helicopter.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2008, 11:20:40 »
Even the US avoids using them in the Marine environemnt.

Offline geo

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2008, 11:28:45 »
It should be a subtle hint that the USMC continues to use the Super Cobra in a marine environment..... Just possibly, they've figured something out
Chimo!

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2008, 11:44:38 »
British Apaches have a folding blade mechanism for shipboard storage to support amphibian operations.
 IMO Apaches would be good for CAF, besides escort recce and fire support missions, a foldable rotor would enable Apaches to be embarked in new JSS or even aboard a frigate/destroyer for littoral operations. Could Apaches be adapted to naval helicopter hauldown equipment.

Where would we store the AH64s gun ammunition, hellfires and 2.75 inch rockets? Do you understand how much training we would have to give the flight crew to get them qualified to land on the deck? not to mention the ground crew. Hey aviator types....does the Ah64 and the Sea King use the same type of go juice?
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Offline Loachman

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2008, 11:51:42 »
It should be a subtle hint that the USMC continues to use the Super Cobra in a marine environment..... Just possibly, they've figured something out

Yes. Extensively redesigning something for its mission.

Offline cheeky_monkey

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2008, 12:01:47 »
It would be simpler and cheaper to add sensors and a suitable weapon package to an existing Naval helicopter.

I hope you're not suggesting we keep our Sea Kings flying longer in an airborne cowboy role... 
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Offline geo

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2008, 12:24:07 »
Yes. Extensively redesigning something for its mission.

Ummm yeah... but once they had the Super Cobra, they never bothered with the Apache
Chimo!

aesop081

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2008, 12:30:35 »


Get one or two Doz - for use by CEFCOM and SOFCOM

Sure.......but whos going to fly them and fix them ?

Online Kat Stevens

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2008, 12:34:07 »
All those SQ and army PLQ qualified guys in the air force....   :rofl:
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline geo

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2008, 12:37:43 »
Ahhhh..... There's the rub !!
Chimo!

Offline Loachman

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Re: Apaches
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2008, 12:41:34 »
I hope you're not suggesting we keep our Sea Kings flying longer in an airborne cowboy role... 

A small number of FLIR systems were purchased for them for the Gulf War.

Should there be a similar need during the remainder of the Sea King's life - however long that may turn out to be...

But, no, I did not mention any specific machine, did I?