Author Topic: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)  (Read 45496 times)

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Offline jwtg

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2012, 09:24:58 »
I'm not going to be attending RMC, they do not offer my major.
Many of us thought that.  Even those of us that were in the process of completing degrees elsewhere.  I can't speak at all to how the processing of an overseas applicant will go, but I can say that you had best be prepared to receive an offer to attend RMC, and only RMC.  The only people guaranteed to not go to RMC are students in programs such as Nursing, where that degree is required for their trade.  There are other acceptable degree programs for MPO, some of which are offered at RMC.

Best to be open minded.



Offline OscarMike

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2012, 09:35:23 »
Many of us thought that.  Even those of us that were in the process of completing degrees elsewhere.  I can't speak at all to how the processing of an overseas applicant will go, but I can say that you had best be prepared to receive an offer to attend RMC, and only RMC.  The only people guaranteed to not go to RMC are students in programs such as Nursing, where that degree is required for their trade.  There are other acceptable degree programs for MPO, some of which are offered at RMC.

Best to be open minded.

Hmm. Damn. I'm hoping I don't end up receiving an offer for RMC and I'm crossing my fingers that my foreign academic transcript when assessed to Canadian equivalences doesn't allow me to go into RMC even though I'm making top grades here. I'd prefer to graduate with a Criminology degree, rather then some irrelevant one from RMC which will be meaningless when pursing civilian law enforcement employment even as a lateral transfer applicant.

If I end up only getting into RMC or be forced into it, then I will most likely pass it up to complete my degree here then go direct entry.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2012, 12:27:02 »
Hmm. Damn. I'm hoping I don't end up receiving an offer for RMC and I'm crossing my fingers that my foreign academic transcript when assessed to Canadian equivalences doesn't allow me to go into RMC even though I'm making top grades here. I'd prefer to graduate with a Criminology degree, rather then some irrelevant one from RMC which will be meaningless when pursing civilian law enforcement employment even as a lateral transfer applicant.

If I end up only getting into RMC or be forced into it, then I will most likely pass it up to complete my degree here then go direct entry.

So let me get this straight:  You're in uni for Crim, want the CF to pay for your schooling to be an MPO, all to serve with the full intention to leave to become a civilian cop?

I'm not saying that everyone has to serve 25 years, but joining the CF with the specific intention of leaving right away isn't exactly a recommended course of action.  Take it as you will.
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

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Offline Brihard

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2012, 12:34:59 »
Hmm. Damn. I'm hoping I don't end up receiving an offer for RMC and I'm crossing my fingers that my foreign academic transcript when assessed to Canadian equivalences doesn't allow me to go into RMC even though I'm making top grades here. I'd prefer to graduate with a Criminology degree, rather then some irrelevant one from RMC which will be meaningless when pursing civilian law enforcement employment even as a lateral transfer applicant.

If I end up only getting into RMC or be forced into it, then I will most likely pass it up to complete my degree here then go direct entry.

I remember when I thought my criminology degree would be relevant for a policing career... The police force I'm now very close to being hired into basically shrugged and said 'that's nice'. The police are looking for an education, not a specific one. My crim degree has taught me very, very little about policing. I've even sat in a class where Vern White, erstwhile chief of Ottawa Police Service, bluntly told us that educations very focused on policing confer no advantage, and may even hinder us a bit as they're a bit more particular than police are looking for. Not that it's on the order of uselessness of Police Foundations or something, but it doesn't bring to the table what you think it does.

If you get into MPO and subsequently apply for a civilian police force, your previous law enforcement service will be a big factor and the particulars of your education a very small one. And if you want to get into MPO as ROTP, the needs of the service will come first. That means you may be sucking it up and going to RMC.

Alternatively, if you're wedded to criminology, go to a Canadian university that offers crim (E.g., Carleton, U Ottawa, Simon Fraser), and enter later as a direct entry officer. If you really have a thirst to do the military in the interim, try to get a spot in a reserve regiment for your last three years of school.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2012, 12:44:29 »
I'd prefer to graduate with a Criminology degree, rather then some irrelevant one from RMC which will be meaningless when pursing civilian law enforcement employment even as a lateral transfer applicant.

If I end up only getting into RMC or be forced into it, then I will most likely pass it up to complete my degree here then go direct entry.

I remember when I thought my criminology degree would be relevant for a policing career... The police force I'm now very close to being hired into basically shrugged and said 'that's nice'. The police are looking for an education, not a specific one. My crim degree has taught me very, very little about policing. I've even sat in a class where Vern White, erstwhile chief of Ottawa Police Service, bluntly told us that educations very focused on policing confer no advantage, and may even hinder us a bit as they're a bit more particular than police are looking for. 


Thought you'd enjoy this song OscarMike.  Good luck policing ;)

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« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 12:47:11 by ObedientiaZelum »
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Offline SecondYear

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2012, 14:42:03 »
The MPO program is a program that's closed if I'm not mistaken.

There are none this year in my year (1st year OCdts) and I know the 2 in 4th year at the school right now are doing Psychology degrees.

If you're in another nation looking for subsidized education then I would look towards scholarships for overseas applications and such. 20 000$ isn't as hard to scrounge up for education as one might think.

In my opinion, applying to the ROTP program while not wanting to go to RMC is a complete waste of an application. The point of the ROTP program is to create "Officers well-educated". Note that Officers comes before Well-Educated for the simple fact that this isn't a school program for officers, but rather an officer's course that offers a degree on the side.

If you plan on being within the Forces for a while, then I strongly suggest you apply and see if you can make it. Even if there is only one spot open, anyone can be that person.

If you don't plan on being in the military or attending RMC, then ROTP might not be for you. I'm sure any recruiter would say them same if you told them your thoughts on RMC. Just my  :2c:

Offline PrairieThunder

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2012, 14:56:37 »
Hmm. Damn. I'm hoping I don't end up receiving an offer for RMC and I'm crossing my fingers that my foreign academic transcript when assessed to Canadian equivalences doesn't allow me to go into RMC even though I'm making top grades here. I'd prefer to graduate with a Criminology degree, rather then some irrelevant one from RMC which will be meaningless when pursing civilian law enforcement employment even as a lateral transfer applicant.

If I end up only getting into RMC or be forced into it, then I will most likely pass it up to complete my degree here then go direct entry.

I have a Police Foundations Diploma from the Justice Institute of British Columbia. 5 out of 6 services I've applied to basically looked at it and said "Oh, that's cute." Criminology is even more useless to Policing than Police Foundations. Criminology (when paired with another degree like accounting or economics) is more for people going to those Independent Investigators or Criminal Psychologists... Economic Crimes.... etc. Very little use to a Patrol Constable/Beat Cop.

Police Departments in British Columbia require you complete 1 year (30 credits) of ANY post-secondary education.
Alberta Sheriffs require a Two-year diploma in a related field.
The Royal Newfoundland Constabulary require a Degree or ...
Quote
...equivalent of 15 credit hours, which should normally include six credit hours in English such as 1080, 1101, 1102, 1103 and 1110, six credit hours in Psychology such as 1000 and 1001, and three credit hours in Sociology, either 1000 or 2000.

Most, if not all other Police services in Canada require no post-secondary (however it is preferred to be competitive and to show you're not just some angry High School kid that wants a badge to throw power around). However, that is only very little to being considered a Recruit Constable (even with the Military Police). Life Experience plays a big part. If your resume/CV only has schooling and one or two jobs... they'll tell you you need more Life Experience. Work more, volunteer with your local Crime Prevention Society, become an Auxiliary Constable etc. Military experience... many police officers were once members of either the CF or British Army etc. or they a members of the Primary Reserve; that will get you bonus points as well. The average age of a Police recruit is 26.

Anyway, I'm starting to go off the rails a bit.

To summarize: Only take Criminology if it is something you're interested in, don't do it just because you want to become a Cop or MP/MPO. A degree in Economics, Accounting or Forensics... hell actually anything... as stated by Alex.Landry will do you just fine.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 15:00:10 by PrairieThunder »

Online mariomike

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2012, 15:31:49 »
Military experience... many police officers were once members of either the CF or British Army etc. or they a members of the Primary Reserve; that will get you bonus points as well.

Regarding bonus points.

Toronto: "Although we appreciate your service in the military, all current and past members of any military service will proceed through the Constable Selection System like any other candidate."

Hamilton: "Military service is neither an advantage nor a disadvantage."

« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 15:52:24 by mariomike »
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Offline PrairieThunder

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2012, 15:52:48 »
Regarding bonus points.

Toronto: "Although we appreciate your service in the military, all current and past members of any military service will proceed through the Constable Selection System like any other candidate."

Hamilton: "Military service is neither an advantage nor a disadvantage."

I wasn't using bonus points in a literal sense.

While they may state that is provides no advantage or disadvantage... we all know it still happens. Be honest for a moment, who'd you rather hire? Someone with a High School Diploma, 15 college credits, worked at a Gas Station and volunteer at the Human Society... or someone with military service, knows what it is to be in truly stressful situations, and is disciplined?

Offline jwtg

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2012, 18:10:04 »
Hmm. Damn. I'm hoping I don't end up receiving an offer for RMC and I'm crossing my fingers that my foreign academic transcript when assessed to Canadian equivalences doesn't allow me to go into RMC even though I'm making top grades here. I'd prefer to graduate with a Criminology degree, rather then some irrelevant one from RMC which will be meaningless when pursing civilian law enforcement employment even as a lateral transfer applicant.

If I end up only getting into RMC or be forced into it, then I will most likely pass it up to complete my degree here then go direct entry.
When they began accepting MP's as lateral applicants into the RCMP, it applied only to NCMs.  MPOs were not considered for lateral application because their job is nothing like civilian policing.  The recruiter I spoke to said that in his experience, even the NCM MPs find the adjustment to civi policing to be a steep learning curve.  They're very different jobs; however, unless things have changed, NCM MPs are still able to apply to the RCMP as lateral applicants, and MPOs are not. 

I can't speak to other police service policies because I never looked into them.

Also, as many others have posted here, no degree is 'irrelevant' when pursuing policing because for many of the police services out there, having a degree is what will earn you points; not necessarily having a criminology degree.

On a personal note, if you want scholarships, then get scholarships.  The ROTP is an officer production program the CF offers in order to produce officers; if you don't want to be a CF officer, then feel free to not rob that opportunity from somebody who might want it.  Instead, just go be a police officer.

That's enough from me- I'm going to go back to studying and writing papers for that 'irrelevant' degree that I'm pursuing at RMC.

Offline OscarMike

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2012, 18:20:26 »
To summarize: Only take Criminology if it is something you're interested in, don't do it just because you want to become a Cop or MP/MPO. A degree in Economics, Accounting or Forensics... hell actually anything... as stated by Alex.Landry will do you just fine.

My apologises I did not want to over-share, hence one of the reasons why I haven't mentioned which foreign country or anything more specific. To give you a greater insight, I'm doing Criminology, Criminal Justice and Psychology. I have picked more specific policing orientated units, rather than redundant superficial units. I can frankly say that I'm not studying for the sake of gaining employment, I have a significant interest in these fields and am actually planning to go up to PhD level.  Prior to switching my majors, I was studying Politics which was horrible... my grades were slipping, I was unmotivated and then when I switched.... a whole new me.

I cannot see myself enjoying the disciplines offered at RMC other than perhaps military psychology, but from what I have been advised in-general it vastly differs from the psychology I am undertaking right now.

Like I have mentioned I am doing quite excellent in university. Unfortunately, I did not complete high school, as in I dropped out, so I'm not entirely sure if this will hinder me but I suspect it shouldn't upon graduation with a postsecondary degree.

I remember when I thought my criminology degree would be relevant for a policing career... The police force I'm now very close to being hired into basically shrugged and said 'that's nice'. The police are looking for an education, not a specific one. My crim degree has taught me very, very little about policing. I've even sat in a class where Vern White, erstwhile chief of Ottawa Police Service, bluntly told us that educations very focused on policing confer no advantage, and may even hinder us a bit as they're a bit more particular than police are looking for. Not that it's on the order of uselessness of Police Foundations or something, but it doesn't bring to the table what you think it does.

If you get into MPO and subsequently apply for a civilian police force, your previous law enforcement service will be a big factor and the particulars of your education a very small one. And if you want to get into MPO as ROTP, the needs of the service will come first. That means you may be sucking it up and going to RMC.

Alternatively, if you're wedded to criminology, go to a Canadian university that offers crim (E.g., Carleton, U Ottawa, Simon Fraser), and enter later as a direct entry officer. If you really have a thirst to do the military in the interim, try to get a spot in a reserve regiment for your last three years of school.

It is unlikely that I will transfer to a frontline policing role in a municipal police force. While I am keeping my options open, I would most likely lateral transfer to one of the federal agencies overseas, as a federal agent, and they prefer relevant related degrees. "Military Leadership" is not a relevant degree to them and I have already approached said agencies to enquire. Yes, they count your postsecondary education on top of your previous law enforcement experience. I'm not entirely sure how the Criminology stream works over in Canada, as I have not attended a Canadian university yet, but the stream here is extremely relevant and is geared towards those who are entering the police force. In fact most of our lecturers taught at the police academy and such forth.

So let me get this straight:  You're in uni for Crim, want the CF to pay for your schooling to be an MPO, all to serve with the full intention to leave to become a civilian cop?

I'm not saying that everyone has to serve 25 years, but joining the CF with the specific intention of leaving right away isn't exactly a recommended course of action.  Take it as you will.

Correct. To be perfectly upfront, your opinion on my plans for the future does not concern me nor will I factor it into my decision. This may come off as arrogant but I have spoken to other NCMs and officers who tell me there is no reason one shouldn't join just because they have the intention of only serving the minimum. The military is a valued addition to a curriculum vitae and also, arguably, builds better citizens in the forms of discipline and a deontological approach to life.

Besides, no offense, but the military is funded, by you know tax payers, ironically and last time I checked I pay taxes and contribute to the economy in both countries so why should I feel bad about wanting the Canadian Forces to pay for my education in return for service to boost their ranks? They need to get officers somehow. The arrogant attitude about how the military shouldn't fund people who are just going to leave after minimum service is more than pathetic.... seeing as the military serves at the privilege of the tax payers, where if you aren't funded by tax payers you are now out of a job because there's no defense budget to pay your salary or anything else for that matter. Not to mention, the military offers the program to boost their ranks and if they had a problem with people leaving after the minimum service requirements they would remove the program if they saw it as non-beneficial and because the program still exists it presents the notion that it is benefit to the Canadian Forces.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 18:30:31 by OscarMike »

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2012, 18:29:18 »
If I end up only getting into RMC or be forced into it, then I will ........



Now there is a novel thought; great big burly men in trenchcoats, dark glasses and fedoras, knocking at your door and escorting you to a blacked out windowed Suburban and whisking you off to RMC.  Who would have thought that we did such things in Canada, eh?
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Offline OscarMike

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2012, 18:33:30 »


Now there is a novel thought; great big burly men in trenchcoats, dark glasses and fedoras, knocking at your door and escorting you to a blacked out windowed Suburban and whisking you off to RMC.  Who would have thought that we did such things in Canada, eh?

Love that sardonic humour :D.

On the contrary, I was more specifically talking about being forced to only enter the pathway, should I want to, in the RMC route instead of the preferred civi uni route.

Offline jwtg

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2012, 18:36:11 »
. . .
Correct. To be perfectly upfront, your opinion on my plans for the future does not concern me nor will I factor it into my decision. This may come off as arrogant but I have spoken to other NCMs and officers who tell me there is no reason one shouldn't join just because they have the intention of only serving the minimum. The military is a valued addition to a curriculum vitae and also, arguably, builds better citizens in the forms of discipline and a deontological approach to life.

Besides, no offense, but the military is funded, by you know tax payers, ironically and last time I checked I pay taxes and contribute to the economy in both countries so why should I feel bad about wanting the Canadian Forces to pay for my education in return for service to boost their ranks? They need to get officers somehow. The stuck-up attitude about how the military shouldn't fund people who are just going to leave after minimum service is more than pathetic.... seeing as you serve at the privilege of the tax payers, where if you aren't funded by tax payers you are now out of a job because there's no budget to pay your salary or anything else for that matter. Not to mention, the military offers the program to boost their ranks and if they had a problem with people leaving after the minimum service requirements they would remove the program if they saw it as non-beneficial and because the program still exists it presents the notion that it is benefit to the Canadian Forces.
Arrogant? Check.
Condescending? Check.
Sense of entitlement? Check.
I believe we know where our funding comes from, but thanks for the education.   
You say that, as a taxpayer, you have no problem with people serving the minimum and getting out.  Well, you're entitled to your opinion (if not much else).  I, as a taxpayer,  hope you never wear a uniform because I would prefer my that dollar go a long way.

Offline jwtg

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2012, 18:41:32 »
Alternatively, if you're wedded to criminology, go to a Canadian university that offers crim (E.g., Carleton, U Ottawa, Simon Fraser), and enter later as a direct entry officer. If you really have a thirst to do the military in the interim, try to get a spot in a reserve regiment for your last three years of school.

As much as I'm inclined to be unhelpful, I think highlighting this line from Brihard's post is beneficial.

The way I understand it, you want to come to Canada and finish your degree.  If that's the case, the reserves gets you some of the experience you're looking for and spares you ever having to serve in the reg force, thus paving the way for you to serve in the civilian police force more quickly.  There are, in fact, some reserve MP organizations, but I don't know what they require in terms of qualifications for applicants. 

Offline OscarMike

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2012, 18:42:34 »
Arrogant? Check.
Condescending? Check.
Sense of entitlement? Check.
I believe we know where our funding comes from, but thanks for the education.   
You say that, as a taxpayer, you have no problem with people serving the minimum and getting out.  Well, you're entitled to your opinion (if not much else).  I, As a taxpayer,  hope you never wear a uniform because I prefer my dollar go a long way.

I have lurked on these forums for many years. I am perfectly aware of the attitudes and behaviour of certain posters who like to talk down to potential candidates in a vicious and unnecessary manner which further alienates the military from the eyes of the general public, where it turns them off of military service. Essentially this is a forum for potential candidates to ask questions, not be bagged out. What is the purpose of having such a forum if all you're going to do is bag someone out while being unhelpful?  Not exactly painting the best of picture. I frankly will not have someone insult my knowledge or aspirations simply because they disagree. That's fine, disagree, but it's not going to persuade me away from doing something.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2012, 18:44:30 »
Love that sardonic humour :D.

On the contrary, I was more specifically talking about being forced to only enter the pathway, should I want to, in the RMC route instead of the preferred civi uni route.

ROTP is what we are all talking about.  You either want to serve your Country or not.  The Country has no obligations to serve you.  Serving in the CF is not a Right.  Don't expect any sympathy here if you want to abuse the system for your own personal desires.   The majority of CF members of are not of that ilk.

If you are accepted for ROTP, you will go where they tell you.  The same as should you be accepted at any other "Institution of Higher Learning"; you go to their institution, not someone else's.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 02:08:20 by George Wallace »
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Offline OscarMike

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2012, 18:48:04 »
Quote
The way I understand it, you want to come to Canada and finish your degree. 

This is true. Except I am not jumping for joy at the thought of the massive debt (repayments after 6 months) should I return to finish the degree off in Canada. In my forgein country, the student loan is interest-free and repayments are salary deductions after your salary reaches a significantly high threshold.

Quote
If that's the case, the reserves gets you some of the experience you're looking for and spares you ever having to serve in the reg force, thus paving the way for you to serve in the civilian police force more quickly.  There are, in fact, some reserve MP organizations, but I don't know what they require in terms of qualifications for applicants.

Ultimately I would like to serve in the reg force, as either NCM or as an officer, but yeah reserves doesn't sound too bad.

Offline jwtg

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2012, 18:49:31 »
I have lurked on these forums for many years. I am perfectly aware of the attitudes and behaviour of certain posters who like to talk down to potential candidates in a vicious and unnecessary manner which further alienates the military from the eyes of the general public, where it turns them off of military service. Essentially this is a forum for potential candidates to ask questions, not be bagged out. What is the purpose of having such a forum if all you're going to do is bag someone out while being unhelpful?
I was the first person to alert you to the fact that an RMC-only route may be the only offer you ever receive.  I also echoed, and provided additional reasons for, Brihard's idea about the reserves, which really isn't a bad idea.  They also have programs to partially subsidize university education.  Something worth looking into for you, since you've stated you're basically looking for subsidized education.  I think I've been somewhat helpful.

Quote
Not exactly painting the best of picture. I frankly will not have someone insult my knowledge or aspirations simply because they disagree. That's fine, disagree, but it's not going to persuade me away from doing something.
But it's okay for you to come on here and insult our knowledge by 'educating' us on the fact that we're pathetic and we don't even know where our funding comes from?  Take a long look in the mirror before you start casting stones.  You'll notice I also never insulted your intelligence.  I identified what I felt were undesirable personality traits that you displayed in your post.

If anything, I insulted your character. 
Please refrain from insulting my intelligence by ignoring the content of my posts and responding like a child who has had their feelings hurt.


EDIT to add: This post went up just before I saw the OP's most recent reply which responded to the content of my previous post, so some credit is due there. 
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 18:55:34 by jwtg »

Offline OscarMike

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2012, 18:56:25 »
I was the first person to alert you to the fact that an RMC-only route may be the only offer you ever receive.  I also echoed, and provided additional reasons for, Brihard's idea about the reserves, which really isn't a bad idea.  They also have programs to partially subsidize university education.  Something worth looking into for you, since you've stated you're basically looking for subsidized education.  I think I've been somewhat helpful.
But it's okay for you to come on here and insult our knowledge by 'educating' us on the fact that we're pathetic and we don't even know where our funding comes from?  Take a long look in the mirror before you start casting stones.  You'll notice I also never insulted your intelligence.  I identified what I felt were undesirable personality traits that you displayed in your post.

If anything, I insulted your character. 
Please refrain from insulting my intelligence by ignoring the content of my posts and responding like a child who has had their feelings hurt.

You are assuming that I was referring to you. The saying is "assumptions make an *** out of you and me". Rather as I recognise you were helpful the defensive content of my responses were directed towards Dimsum and Dimsum alone. Yes, I do think it's acceptable to refute Dimsum and his attitude/opinion which echoes many other posters who, in many people's opinions, shouldn't be serving in the military to begin with because they posses undesirable traits and characteristics.

Thank you for helping.

Offline OscarMike

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2012, 19:07:33 »
ROTP is what we are all talking about.

If you are accepted for ROTP, you will go where they tell you.  The same as should you be accepted at any other "Institution of Higher Learning"; you go to their institution, not someone else's.

That goes without saying, yeah. Still have a discretion to either accept the offer or not accept the offer which I would invoke if I were to only receive RMC.

Offline Loachman

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2012, 19:31:23 »
For anybody who thinks that it is wrong for somebody to serve the minimum time and then leave, it is not. Our system is designed that way. If the intent was to keep people in longer, the obligatory service period would be lengthened to that longer period. A commitment to the current minimum is sufficient. Somebody may join with the intent to serve until CRA and then decide otherwise, or join with the intent to leave upon reaching the end of his/her obligatory service and decide to stay much longer.

That said, the feeling that people are somehow abusing the system by leaving at the end of the minimum time is not uncommon.

Offline PrairieThunder

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2012, 19:34:54 »
My apologises I did not want to over-share, hence one of the reasons why I haven't mentioned which foreign country or anything more specific. To give you a greater insight, I'm doing Criminology, Criminal Justice and Psychology. I have picked more specific policing orientated units, rather than redundant superficial units. I can frankly say that I'm not studying for the sake of gaining employment, I have a significant interest in these fields and am actually planning to go up to PhD level.  Prior to switching my majors, I was studying Politics which was horrible... my grades were slipping, I was unmotivated and then when I switched.... a whole new me.

What's wrong with sharing the country you're from? Criminology is the study of why crimes are committed and why people become criminals (in case you didn't know already); it has very little application to a Police Organization. It is only good paired with but not limited to: Forensic or Accounting. Criminologists do things study cases of Criminal Insanity and then "advise" police organizations on how they can better equip their members to handle calls when attending known mental health subjects or to assist officers in detecting symptoms of mental issues in a subject. They study Serious Incident Responses, like when an officer ends up needing to shoot an aggressive subject and then advise police organizations or politicians on their findings which then results in changing the Rules of Engagement, Use of Force Continuum and junk like that. In my opinion, very few Criminology graduates/Criminologists actually work for a Police Service.. Criminal Justice, unless it is specifically Justice Studies of Policing... then a Degree in Criminal Justice will only do you any good if you're going to law school to become a Crown Prosecutor or a Defense Lawyer (Criminal Lawyer).

You may think they're specific, you may think that they'll help you in policing, but... everyone starts out at the bottom in a Police Organization in Canada. You start off as a Beat/Front Line officer equivalent to an NCM MP and nothing can prepare you for the streets; I've learned that the hard way here at the Alberta Solicitor General and Public Security Staff College, I'm on training as an Alberta Sheriff, while I was required to have the Police Foundations Diploma to meet the minimum requirements... I'm regretting spending money on it because it has so far had ZERO use to me even at the "Academy" Well, I loved the program and was worth the money, but as stated: zero applicable use so far, as most of it is taught at Police Academies/Staff Colleges). MPO's are administrators. I think I remember hearing that MPOs do very little real police work, even investigations.

Psychology is okay, depending on what type of psychology you wish to specialize in, it will become useful if you wish to become an Investigator/Detective or a Negotiator.

Quote
I cannot see myself enjoying the disciplines offered at RMC other than perhaps military psychology, but from what I have been advised in-general it vastly differs from the psychology I am undertaking right now.

Like I have mentioned I am doing quite excellent in university. Unfortunately, I did not complete high school, as in I dropped out, so I'm not entirely sure if this will hinder me but I suspect it shouldn't upon graduation with a postsecondary degree.

It is unlikely that I will transfer to a frontline policing role in a municipal police force. While I am keeping my options open, I would most likely lateral transfer to one of the federal agencies overseas, as a federal agent, and they prefer relevant related degrees. "Military Leadership" is not a relevant degree to them and I have already approached said agencies to enquire. Yes, they count your postsecondary education on top of your previous law enforcement experience. I'm not entirely sure how the Criminology stream works over in Canada, as I have not attended a Canadian university yet, but the stream here is extremely relevant and is geared towards those who are entering the police force. In fact most of our lecturers taught at the police academy and such forth.

Like I said, unless they have openings for Civilian positions as investigators, forensic technicians.... You'll start out at the bottom of the ladder as a Front Line Officer/Beat Cop and after 3/4 years you'll be given the opportunity to move into specialized units like Homicide, Major Crimes, Financial Crimes, Sex Crimes, Domestic Unit etc.

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Correct. To be perfectly upfront, your opinion on my plans for the future does not concern me nor will I factor it into my decision. This may come off as arrogant but I have spoken to other NCMs and officers who tell me there is no reason one shouldn't join just because they have the intention of only serving the minimum. The military is a valued addition to a curriculum vitae and also, arguably, builds better citizens in the forms of discipline and a deontological approach to life.

Besides, no offense, but the military is funded, by you know tax payers, ironically and last time I checked I pay taxes and contribute to the economy in both countries so why should I feel bad about wanting the Canadian Forces to pay for my education in return for service to boost their ranks? They need to get officers somehow. The arrogant attitude about how the military shouldn't fund people who are just going to leave after minimum service is more than pathetic.... seeing as the military serves at the privilege of the tax payers, where if you aren't funded by tax payers you are now out of a job because there's no defense budget to pay your salary or anything else for that matter. Not to mention, the military offers the program to boost their ranks and if they had a problem with people leaving after the minimum service requirements they would remove the program if they saw it as non-beneficial and because the program still exists it presents the notion that it is benefit to the Canadian Forces.

Fair enough, but for most of the members here that have been to corners and have done and seen terrible things during their dedication to Canada, it's insulting that all that is in your mind is to take advantage of your dual-citizenship... expect to get subsidized education, fulfill your Obligatory Service only to flee back to your Overseas lair and become a police officer with disillusioned thoughts of how you're going to get there.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 19:39:03 by PrairieThunder »

Offline Brihard

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2012, 19:38:27 »
Criminology is even more useless to Policing than Police Foundations.

Not what Chief White told us to our faces. His statistics were 10% of police foundations grades get into police forces within a year of graduation; 30% ever (and that includes those who get subsequent additional education). Criminology, conversely, fulfills the 'any sort of degree' requirement, while still being related enough to be of some benefit to a number of other criminal justice professions. Corrections, CBSA,

Police foundations, if you don't get hired as a cop, is almost completely wasted and offers few other options beyond allowing you to enter a mall security job and fit in. If you DO get hired as a cop, Everything of relevance that you learned will be retaught... Once you've hung around Blueline a bit longer though you'll se ethe attitude that cops have toward PF programs. But you of course have taken the additional step of working towards degree completion, which should 'top you up', so it oughtn't hurt you.

Quote from: OscarMike
It is unlikely that I will transfer to a frontline policing role in a municipal police force. While I am keeping my options open, I would most likely lateral transfer to one of the federal agencies overseas, as a federal agent, and they prefer relevant related degrees. "Military Leadership" is not a relevant degree to them and I have already approached said agencies to enquire. Yes, they count your postsecondary education on top of your previous law enforcement experience. I'm not entirely sure how the Criminology stream works over in Canada, as I have not attended a Canadian university yet, but the stream here is extremely relevant and is geared towards those who are entering the police force. In fact most of our lecturers taught at the police academy and such forth.

So... You want to get the Canadian taxpayer to cover the cost of your education so that you can serve the minimal necessary time in the military as an MP Office.r In that role you won't do much actual policing, you'll mostly be an administrator who won't even be in long enough to get particularly good at much. You somehow think that your university education - which doesn't actually teach how to do much at all, plus some time behind a desk as a junior MPO that can't even lateral you into many municipal forces, will somehow get you a 'federal agent' job back in Britain?

Yeah... Don't hold your breath. MPO is a rather limited trade, and most applicants aren't nearly so mercenary in their intentions. You would be wasting an ROTP spot that could go to someone more deserving who intends to stick around and serve our country for more than the bare minimum they need to not get billed for it.
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Offline OscarMike

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Re: Applying from outside Canada (Merged)
« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2012, 19:39:20 »
For anybody who thinks that it is wrong for somebody to serve the minimum time and then leave, it is not. Our system is designed that way. If the intent was to keep people in longer, the obligatory service period would be lengthened to that longer period. A commitment to the current minimum is sufficient. Somebody may join with the intent to serve until CRA and then decide otherwise, or join with the intent to leave upon reaching the end of his/her obligatory service and decide to stay much longer.

That said, the feeling that people are somehow abusing the system by leaving at the end of the minimum time is not uncommon.

I know over here the military, even has on their website that subsequent periods of service are up to the military to decide along with suitability for future service in the military. I assume it is the same with the Canadian Forces nonetheless?

Also been looking through some threads, RMC is apparently quite competitive to get into... would that mean if you fail to get into RMC but pass everything else in ROTP that you just aren't accepted into the training program instead of being offered civi uni sponsorship?