Author Topic: Russia's Mistral class LHDs: updates  (Read 144730 times)

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Offline RV

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Russia's Mistral class LHDs: updates
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2010, 15:02:19 »

On the other hand, while I agree with RC, I must seriously question the knowledge of the Commander he refers too. I hope it is an engineering officer, because if it is a MARS officer of that rank, he should seriously be sent back down for requal.


Lol!  He was in fact an engineering officer, but I suspect the problem was more in the question that I asked.  I know how naval ships are put together, but I know very little about how they are used tactically and strategically.  I likely messed up the paraphrasing as well.

I am happy to stipulate that shipbuilding is, or can be, more than just uneconomic pork barrel politics. It might be a strategic industry – even a required strategic industry for an aspiring leading middle power. If that's the case then it deserves ongoing public support by, say, a national ship building strategy and programme. Since successive Conservative and Liberal governments, ever since 1961, have renounced such programmes I can only conclude that we, Canada, have rejected the idea that ship building is or needs to be any thing more than ineffective job creation.

I participated in two industry input sessions for the national ship building strategy programme in 2009.  There were four Cabinet ministers at the meeting in Ottawa, which should give an indication of how serious they are about it.  I expect they will be releasing the results early in 2011.  The plan is for 30 years and has bilateral support (at least in principle) from the Liberals.  I think the idea fell by the wayside for several decades, but it most certainly has not been rejected.

There's a thread about it in the Navy News section if you'd like to learn more.

Edit: Nevermind.  I just had another read through it while planning to collect the link for you and realized that: a) it's not very good and b) you've already posted in it several times, which makes me a little confused about your comments in here.

It's also worth noting that the government has given up on protecting a major segment of the civilian shipbuilding industry, so why not for Navy and CCG vessels--other than pure por(c)k?


I believe this was a result of lobbying by ship owners and that if the NSPS proves that Canadian shipbuilders can build competitvely, it will be short lived.  But we'll see.  At any rate, it is a substantially different strategic and economic argument between commercial and government ships.  Commercial ship owners do not benefit from the net cost benefits posted by Cdn Blackshirt, nor is it a strategic advantage to build the ship types covered under the tariff break in Canada.  The government can give ship owners a hand up with one hand and ship builders with the other without it being hypocritical or conflicting.  Your argument doesn't add up in real or logical terms.  I'll admit that it does make a nice sound byte for the uninformed though.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 15:33:02 by milnews.ca »

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Russia May Buy French Mistral
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2010, 15:18:29 »
...
I participated in two industry input sessions for the national ship building strategy programme in 2009.  There were four Cabinet ministers at the meeting in Ottawa, which should give an indication of how serious they are about it.  I expect they will be releasing the results early in 2011.  The plan is for 30 years and has bilateral support (at least in principle) from the Liberals.  I think the idea fell by the wayside for several decades, but it most certainly has not been rejected.
...


I sincerely hope you are right ... but I've been around for a long time, so you'll excuse me if I'm skeptical.
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Offline NavyShooter

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Re: Russia May Buy French Mistral
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2010, 15:38:24 »
A strategy is fine...

Action would be better.

Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Offline RV

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Re: Russia May Buy French Mistral
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2010, 15:50:49 »

I sincerely hope you are right ... but I've been around for a long time, so you'll excuse me if I'm skeptical.

I'll admit to being young and optimistic, but I generally have a feel for these types of things and I left those meetings with a positive impression.  They are working slowly, but I think they are working and I'd rather they take it slow and get it right than jump into a 30 year program without enough fore thought.  It has momentum.

A strategy is fine...

Action would be better.



I really hoped they would fast track the AOPS program and avoid having it mired in the NSPS discussions, but it was not to be.  Oh well, maybe this way I'll get to see the first one being built by the time I make it back to Canada in a year and a half.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 15:56:02 by RC »

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Russia May Buy French Mistral
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2010, 15:26:53 »
And we couldn't get three Canadian-built JSSs for $2.9 billion:
http://unambig.com/joint-support-ship-effectively-sunk-take-2/

Russia to pay over 700 million euros  for first Mistral helicopter carrier - source
http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20101230/161991515.html

Quote


Russia will pay France approximately 720 million euros for its first Mistral-class helicopter carrier for its Navy, a source close to the negotiations process told RIA Novosti on Thursday.

At the initial stage, two Mistral-class helicopter carriers will be built jointly by France and Russia at the STX shipyard in Saint-Nazaire, France. Another two will be constructed later at the Admiralty Shipyards in St. Petersburg.

"The cost of the first ship will be 720 million euros [$940 million], the second will cost 650 million euros," the source said.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev told his French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy last week over the phone that France had won the tender to build amphibious assault ships for Russia. The winner is a consortium comprised of French DCNS and Russia's United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), the Kremlin press service said.

The first Mistral-class ship is expected to be built within 36 months after Russia makes an advance payment scheduled for January 2011...

And in 2014 our Navy still won't have anything to replace the  Protecteur class.

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Offline RV

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Re: Russia May Buy French Mistral
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2011, 19:18:58 »
The Mistrals are not prototype and they are commercial standard.  DCNS involvement adds about a 20% mark up for hanging out and putting their pants on in the morning.  Seems about right.

I wonder if that includes the cost of the ToT package.  I think most of that cost is sunk into the third and fourth ships built in Russia.  I notice they don't give a price for those.

Offline S.M.A.

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France launches Russia's first Mistral class LHD
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2013, 13:40:37 »
Just 2 years from contract signing to launch for a ship that size...isn't that fast?

Quote



France Floats Out First Russian Mistral Warship
15/10/2013

The ship, named Vladivostok, being built at the DCNS shipyard in Saint-Nazaire, is expected to start sea trials in March next year. . . .

Russia and France signed the 1.2 billion euro ($1.6 billion) contract for two French-built Mistral-class helicopter carriers in June 2011.

A second Mistral-class warship, the Sevastopol, is due to be floated out in October 2014.

According to the Russian Defense Ministry, both warships will be based in the Far East ports of Vladivostok and Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky when they enter service.

RIA Novosti
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Russia May Buy French Mistral
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2013, 17:39:15 »
Not really. Not when you know what the heck you're doing, which DCNS knows as it is the fourth one they have built.

To make matters even easier, the Mistral's are a derivative from a commercial design and have Hull/propulsion/power plant commonality of 90% of the commercial ship its based on in these areas.

The floated ship probably needs another 6 months of fitting out before it can be turned over to the Russians, but that is all in line with the timelines of the three French ones.

Offline S.M.A.

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Russia's 1st Mistral class LHD on sea trials
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2014, 01:45:55 »
Russia's 1st Mistral class LHD on sea trials...

Quote

French debut warship built for Russia

(heraldnet.com)

March 6, 2014

The Vladivostock, designed to strengthen Russia’s ability to deploy troops, tanks and helicopter gunships, leaves Saint Nazaire harbor in France for a test run on Wednesday.
<snipped>

The Vladivostok helicopter carrier set sail from the French Atlantic port of Saint-Nazaire, while just a few hundred miles away in Paris, France’s government hosted American, Russian and other leading world diplomats amid mounting tensions over Ukraine.

The warship is part of a $1.6-billion deal that marked the biggest-ever sale of NATO weaponry to Moscow, a deal that already raised eyebrows both within Russia’s military circles and among France’s Western allies when it was struck in 2011.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 01:50:28 by S.M.A. »
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Offline S.M.A.

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France mulls cancelling Mistral deal over Ukraine crisis
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2014, 15:00:53 »
No more LHD for Russia's Pacific fleet?

Source: RIA Novosti

Quote


France May Scrap Russian Warship Deal over Ukraine Crisis
18/03/2014


Quote

In the interview with France’s TF1, Laurent Fabius denied the legitimacy of Sunday’s referendum in Crimea to join Russia and urged Moscow to take urgent measures to avoid “useless and dangerous” escalation in Ukraine.
<snipped>

"If Putin carries on like this, we could consider canceling these sales,” Fabius said Monday adding that the possible loss of the contracts could be negative for the French economy.

The French foreign minister said such move would be part of “phase three” of economic sanctions against Moscow. “Now we are at phase two,” he said.

(...EDITED)

« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 15:12:56 by S.M.A. »
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Russia May Buy French Mistral
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2014, 15:04:24 »
Quote
"If Putin carries on like this..."


Does annexation count as carrying on?


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Offline S.M.A.

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Russia will demand compensation if France scraps warship sale
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2014, 00:04:37 »
Financial compensation?

Reuters

Quote
Russia will demand compensation if France scraps warship sale

(Reuters) - Moscow will demand compensation if France cancels a deal to sell it Mistral helicopter-carrier ships as punishment for the annexation of Ukraine's Crimea region, Russian news agencies cited a defence official as saying.

"There is no doubt the Russian side will defend its rights ... and will demand compensation for all losses we might sustain if the Mistral contract is breached," state-run RIA quoted Deputy Defence Minister Yuri Borisov as saying.

(...EDITED)

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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Russia's Mistral class LHDs: updates
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2014, 10:42:23 »
So lets see if I get this straight:

Russia will demand that international contract law be respected by France, which is "breaking" this international law as punishment for Russia breaking international public law.

Did I miss something?

Offline Lightguns

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Re: Russia's Mistral class LHDs: updates
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2014, 12:16:24 »
No problem, build boat, turn over to Canada Steamship Lines to deliver AFTER the sanctions.  We get LHD, Russians get spanked.  We better deploy everyone to the the Arctic right away though.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Russia's Mistral class LHDs: updates
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2014, 11:45:38 »
So lets see if I get this straight:

Russia will demand that international contract law be respected by France, which is "breaking" this international law as punishment for Russia breaking international public law.

Did I miss something?

There is "Russian international law" and then there is "international law" which is a bit of a sham anyways as well. The people who respect it the most, are the ones that you need to worry about the least.

Offline thehare

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Re: Russia's Mistral class LHDs: updates
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2014, 17:29:37 »
There is "Russian international law" and then there is "international law" which is a bit of a sham anyways as well. The people who respect it the most, are the ones that you need to worry about the least.

Exactly, I also find it kind of ironic that the Russians would complain about international law when they broke it themselves with the invasion of Ukraine. Budapest Agreement anyone?  :-X

Offline S.M.A.

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NATO should buy Mistral LHDs originally slated for Russia (Commentary)
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2014, 17:37:27 »
One radical suggestion from a Defense News contributor:

Quote
Defense News

Commentary: NATO Should Buy the Mistrals

Move Would Boost Allies at Critical Juncture


Mar. 30, 2014 - 04:18PM   |   

By JEFF LIGHTFOOT   

NATO should buy the two Mistral warships France is building for export to the Russian Federation this year and make them a commonly shared asset. This bold action would prevent a powerful military capability from falling into the hands of an assertive Russia, bolster NATO’s capabilities, demonstrate political solidarity among NATO allies and offer the alliance a flagship symbol of multinational defense cooperation.


Russia’s invasion of Crimea has put many European countries in an awkward position due to the continent’s close trade linkages with Moscow. No one has been more challenged than France. Under former President Nicolas Sarkozy, Paris agreed to manufacture and sell to Russia two of its most sophisticated amphibious warships.

The sale provoked noisy objections in the US Congress and among allies in Central and Eastern Europe who saw the contract as undermining NATO solidarity.  But for France, the sale was all about jobs. The nearly $2 billion contract has preserved 1,000 jobs at the St. Nazaire shipyards.

(...EDITED)

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Offline S.M.A.

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Stern half of 2nd Mistral class ship due to leave Russia for France
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2014, 17:23:58 »
No cancellation in this project seen so far...

Defense News

Quote
Russia Marks Key Stage in Joint France Warship Project
Apr. 30, 2014 - 03:41PM   |   By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE 

SAINT PETERSBURG — Russia on Wednesday marked the completion of a key part of a project to build two helicopter carriers with France, which has been eyed with increasing unease in the West amid the escalating Ukraine crisis.

The Baltiysky shipyard in St. Petersburg held a ceremony to mark the dispatch of the stern of one of two Mistral-class amphibious helicopter carriers being jointly developed in the €1.2 billion ($1.66 billion) project with France.

It will be towed to St. Nazaire on France’s Atlantic Coast, where it is due to be welded together with a hull being built at the STX France shipyard. The full 22,000-ton vessel is then due for delivery to the Russian navy at the end of next year.

The first of the two warships has already been completed and is undergoing sea trials at St Nazaire.

But rising East-West tensions mean it is no longer clear whether the project will be finalized.

The first vessel, called The Vladivostok, is due to be delivered to the Russian navy in October. France’s defense ministry said last month it has yet to decide whether to complete the delivery.

(...EDITED)

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Offline S.M.A.

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France: "Mistral deal STILL ON"
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2014, 13:45:52 »
Seems economic priorities are prevailing in France over fears of a Russian threat...

Defense News

Quote
Hollande Says Sale of Warships To Russia Still On 'For Now'
May. 11, 2014 - 11:16AM   |   By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE 

STRALSUND, GERMANY — French President Francois Hollande said Saturday the sale of two Mistral warships to Russia would continue “for now” despite the West’s worsening relations with Moscow over the Ukraine crisis.

“The contract was signed in 2011, it is being carried out and will be completed by next October,” said Hollande during a press briefing in Germany, where he met with Chancellor Angela Merkel.

Their two-day talks had focused on the situation in Ukraine and they called on both Kiev and Moscow to ensure nothing interferes with crucial presidential elections, set for May 25.

But Moscow’s annexation of Crimea in March and the West’s fears that other regions of east Ukraine could also join Russia has touched off the worst east-west diplomatic row since the end of the Cold War.

(...EDITED)

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Offline MilEME09

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Re: Russia's Mistral class LHDs: updates
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2014, 19:10:33 »
If i was France, I would quietly go find buyers for those ships and then tell Russia to play nice and back of Ukraine or these nice people over here are buying your ships, oh and no refunds
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Offline S.M.A.

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France might withhold 2nd Mistral class ship from Russia
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2014, 12:12:24 »
Hollande and his government finally coming to their senses over this? 

Quote
France Might Withhold 2nd Mistral Ship From Russia

PARIS — French defense officials are exploring ideas to avoid delivering a second helicopter carrier to Russia, including looking for an alternative client for the Sevastopol, analysts and an industry executive said.

A highly discreet review is being held as armed strife rises in eastern Ukraine and top US officials call for NATO allies to boost defense spending and act as a counterweight to Russia.

“The deal raises a fundamental policy issue not just for France but for the alliance,” said Robbin Laird of consultancy ICSA, based in Washington and here.

Paris is in a political crossfire between the US and Russia. Washington has publicly called for breaking the contract, while Moscow has threatened a hefty financial punishment while praising France’s “reliability as a partner.”


(...SNIPPED)


Defense News

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Offline Colin P

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Re: Russia's Mistral class LHDs: updates
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2014, 17:11:14 »
HMCS Vladivostok has a nice ring to it, name will have a connection to the origins of the vessel and Canada's connection to the previous buyer.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Russia's Mistral class LHDs: updates
« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2014, 18:52:30 »
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline SherH2A

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Re: Russia's Mistral class LHDs: updates
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2014, 09:40:19 »
Definitely one of the less known feats of the Canadian armed forces. I am fascinated by the adventure of the CAF but also awestruck by the feats of the Czech Legion.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Russia's Mistral class LHDs: updates
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2014, 13:11:29 »
And alongside:

Quote
Doughboys Marching Through Siberia
http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/siberia.htm

Mark
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