Author Topic: All things joining the military (but not wanting to deploy) - merged  (Read 34700 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline John_44

  • Guest
  • *
  • 40
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1
I haven't joined yet but Ive been wanting to get into artillery.

Let's say I completed BMQ, SQ, etc and at some time down the line my battalion/unit was called to Afghanistan and I refused to go. In short Im asking how do they deal with soldiers that have no intentions of going to Afghanistan?

(Moderator edit to clarify thread title.)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 07:41:21 by Michael O'Leary »

Offline the 48th regulator

    A mans gotta eat.

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 47,345
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,926
  • Emancipate yourself from mental slavery.
    • Green Veterans Canada
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2009, 23:54:27 »
I haven't joined yet but Ive been wanting to get into Carpentry.

Let's say I completed apprenticeship, Journeyman, trademanship, etc and at some time down the line my union was called to a jobsite and I refused to go. In short Im asking how do they deal with carpenters that have no intentions of going to a Job site?



Hoped you can see where I plugged in the words....


dileas

tess
I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

Offline Loachman

  • Former Army Pilot in Drag
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 214,892
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,376
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2009, 00:20:19 »
Reserve, or Regular? There is a significant difference, as you'll see if you search around here.

But why pass up a chance to do the job for real...?

Offline kincanucks

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 13,810
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,554
    • ARRSE
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2009, 07:23:33 »
Don't know if this is still the process but you should be asked a series of questions about your ability to be deploy and your ability to harm someone else if ordered to do so (paraphrasing).  If you say you have a problem then the process will stop and you will be told to have a nice day.  If you have no problem then you will sign a form stating so.  If you have a problem later on then you will be.........!

Honestly, if you are even thinking about that now then don't bother applying and wasting the resources whether it is for the Regs or Reserves.
- Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.
- If we are the only intelligent life in the universe, at least there's a finite number of idiots.
- Just when you realize life's a *****, it has puppies.

Offline Technoviking

    DANCE TO THE TECHNOVIKING.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 186,296
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,001
  • OBEY!
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2009, 07:35:09 »
I haven't joined yet but Ive been wanting to get into artillery.

Let's say I completed BMQ, SQ, etc and at some time down the line my battalion/unit was called to Afghanistan and I refused to go. In short Im asking how do they deal with soldiers that have no intentions of going to Afghanistan?
If you are slated (eg: ordered) to deploy to Afghanistan, and you refused to go, then you would most likely be released.  When people join the military, they subordinate themselves, and their lives (google "unlimited liability") to the whims of the people of Canada.  Yes, the orders must be lawful, but in the end, just remember that as a military, we do not set foreign policy (eg: pick and choose where to go), we simply enforce foreign policy as determined by lawful government legislation.
So, there I was....

Offline Jammer

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 14,000
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,023
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2009, 07:45:45 »
Why was bandwidth even wasted answering this question?
What could possibly go wrong?

Offline Retired FDO

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 11,865
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 554
  • Swallowing the anchor after 32 years.
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2009, 07:48:17 »
"88. (1) Every person who deserts or attempts to desert is guilty of an offence and on conviction, if the person committed the offence on active service or under orders for active service, is liable to imprisonment for life or to less punishment and, in any other case, is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or to less punishment.

Pretty clear to me!
A Veteran-whether active duty, retired or Reserve- is someone who at one point in their life, wrote a blank cheque made payable to "The Country of Canada" for an amount of "up to and including my life"   Author Unknown

Attitude is the difference between an ordeal and an adventure

Offline N. McKay

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 11,505
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,255
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2009, 07:52:02 »
Why was bandwidth even wasted answering this question?

I think it's a fair question, coming from someone who is not a member of the Forces and isn't yet familiar with the requirements of the job.

Edit: typo correction
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 14:07:59 by N. McKay »

Offline Nerf herder

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 24,836
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,053
  • The usual suspect.
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2009, 08:08:16 »
I think it's a fair question, coming from someone who is not a member for the Forces and isn't yet familiar with the requirements of the job.

Yes it was very fair IMHO.

Also, as a side note, if you were to get in complete your BMQ/ SQ/ DP1 and all TMST and make it all the way to KAF and then decide not to/ refuse to deploy forward to a FOB...it would be a very bad decision on your part.

Regards
Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who kept their swords.--Ben Franklin

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion."
    -Norman Schwartzkopf

Offline Jammer

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 14,000
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,023
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2009, 08:56:34 »
That's my point...It's not a "job".
Why would you join the military if you (possibly) had no intention to deploy?
What could possibly go wrong?

Offline FastEddy

  • Banned
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 7,120
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 875
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2009, 09:05:18 »
I think it's a fair question, coming from someone who is not a member for the Forces and isn't yet familiar with the requirements of the job.


That only brings three points to mind.

1:  WTF.

2:  What do they think the Army does. (no Civy can be that dense).

3:  That the result since they turned the CAF's into a EMPLOYMENT Agency.
Discipline By Example

aesop081

  • Guest
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2009, 09:25:11 »
I think it's a fair question, coming from someone who is not a member for the Forces and isn't yet familiar with the requirements of the job.

I dont know what a firefighter does all day but i can figure out that they have to fight fires every now and then.

Offline Retired FDO

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 11,865
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 554
  • Swallowing the anchor after 32 years.
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2009, 09:31:39 »
I think the problem is not that he doesn't know I think the problem is the general work ethic of the Canadain populace. People (in Toronto) tend to wander in for a meeting whenever they want 10 -15 minutes late or not show at all and demanding an other appointment. The best excuse is "the subway was late"  Alppicants come in between 0815 and 0830 for an 0800 CFAT and say "well I'll just do it now. What's the difference" Difference is it started at 0800 and they were told to be here at 0745. There is a general attitude "I don't feel like doing that so I won't" Unions had a big hand in this. Try to get anything done in a government office. "Not my job", "I'm on break" "that person is away" Apparently no one else can do that job.

Sorry for the rant I'll stop now before I offend anyone further. But suffice to say todays youth have an "all for one and that one's me" attitude!
A Veteran-whether active duty, retired or Reserve- is someone who at one point in their life, wrote a blank cheque made payable to "The Country of Canada" for an amount of "up to and including my life"   Author Unknown

Attitude is the difference between an ordeal and an adventure

Offline Neolithium

  • Level 85 CADPAT Paladin...
  • Member
  • ****
  • 9,305
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 139
  • Last time I signed something I woke up in the army
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2009, 09:38:27 »
FDO, that's a disturbing note that people can't even be decent enough to show up on time for anything.  I suppose I belong to a generation that is getting lazier by the minute.  Personally I can't do that, I was raised to be half an hour early and if you're going to do soemthing do it right or don't bother doing it at all.  That being said, there's a lot of truth to what Aviator said.  I can't quite fathom someone wanting to join the forces and expect that they can refuse to be deployed.  It's the Canadian Forces for crying out loud!
"If A is a success in life, then A = X+Y+Z. Work is X, Y is play and Z is keeping your mouth shut."
-Albert Einstein

"If firefighters fight fire, and crime fighters fight crime, what do freedom fighters fight?"
-George Carlin

Offline Retired FDO

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 11,865
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 554
  • Swallowing the anchor after 32 years.
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2009, 10:10:20 »
Never mind on time how about showing up at all. We have people who don't show up and don't call except to say "I forgot" , I didn't feel like it"  and a whole list of excuses I won't get into. The kicker is they call and want another appointment. Here in the Center I've taken a 3 strike rule. Miss 3 appointments with no call your done.

 Like you Neo. I grew up in a "10 minutes early means your 5 minutes late" atmosphere. It used to drive my kids nuts. "Why do we have to leave sooooo early?"

Ahh the leaders of tomorrow. Scares the hell out me!
A Veteran-whether active duty, retired or Reserve- is someone who at one point in their life, wrote a blank cheque made payable to "The Country of Canada" for an amount of "up to and including my life"   Author Unknown

Attitude is the difference between an ordeal and an adventure

Offline Mojo Magnum

  • Mojo Magnum
  • Member
  • ****
  • 1,235
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 241
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2009, 10:11:54 »
John_44,
I'm sure you can tell from the previous posts here that refusing to go on tour without a good reason is strongly frowned upon.  The CF does make allowances for members to "not participate" in a tour due to circumstances that would hinder their ability to function on tour like relational/marital, financial, or physical issues. However, if a member sat through months and months of training knowing full well that they never intended to deploy, this would raise the question, "Why did you join in the first place?".
 
While everyone needs a paycheck, the Canadian Forces is a career and will challenge you in ways you can't imagine.  It is this challenge, and your willingness to test yourself in the face of adversity that together can make for a life changing experience. 
Perhaps the real question you should be asking, (and more to yourself than to an online forum) is "If I was to join the CF what would I want to accomplish personnally and proffesionally?".  By joining the CF you would leave the "where and when" up to the will of the Canadian people.
I have a wife and three sons, I went to Afghanistan and some days I was very worried that I would not return to them.  But I joined the CF for an adventure, and the CF did not disappoint.  While I was there I was continually driven by the desire to conduct myself in a manner that would make myself and my family proud.  If it was to be my only tour, and my only exposure to a "war-like environment", then I wanted to make damn sure that I did my country, my family and myself proud.
I do not regret my decision to join and I have no doubt that if you choose to join you will make life long friends, improve your physical condition and be fired up about getting wherever it is they decide to send you so you can prove to yourself and others that you are all that and more!

Hazaa ;)
Hazaa!

Offline Neolithium

  • Level 85 CADPAT Paladin...
  • Member
  • ****
  • 9,305
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 139
  • Last time I signed something I woke up in the army
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2009, 12:16:33 »
Never mind on time how about showing up at all. We have people who don't show up and don't call except to say "I forgot" , I didn't feel like it"  and a whole list of excuses I won't get into. The kicker is they call and want another appointment. Here in the Center I've taken a 3 strike rule. Miss 3 appointments with no call your done.

 Like you Neo. I grew up in a "10 minutes early means your 5 minutes late" atmosphere. It used to drive my kids nuts. "Why do we have to leave sooooo early?"

Ahh the leaders of tomorrow. Scares the hell out me!
Well, I suppose that leaves some extra room at least for those of use who are absolutely serious about the whole task of applying and making it into the Canadian Forces.  Seems like some of those things that you recruiters have to deal with....throw me in front of the enemy instead, any day of the week. 

At least when I was at the CFRC in Winnipeg, there were a few other individuals in there who were at various stages of the process as well (Some in for CFAT, some in for medical, etc) all of them had a respectful and serious attitude.  I still have hope for the future!
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 12:19:27 by Neolithium »
"If A is a success in life, then A = X+Y+Z. Work is X, Y is play and Z is keeping your mouth shut."
-Albert Einstein

"If firefighters fight fire, and crime fighters fight crime, what do freedom fighters fight?"
-George Carlin

Offline N. McKay

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 11,505
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,255
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2009, 14:29:23 »


That only brings three points to mind.

1:  WTF.

2:  What do they think the Army does. (no Civy can be that dense).

It's got nothing to do with being dense.  It's reasonable for someone to be entirely unfamiliar with the CF when the great majority of Canadians don't live anywhere near a military installation bigger than the local armoury (and even that is only visibly operating some evenings and almost no days).

If you're familiar with the Forces you understand the roles of the different arms and elements, and understand the conditions of service and the unique nature of the military career.  To someone looking at it from the outside it's just a big green wall.

He had a question, so he asked.  If you don't like his question then you don't have to answer it.  Too easy.

Quote
3:  That the result since they turned the CAF's into a EMPLOYMENT Agency.

Fair point.  At some time in the past it was found that "do your duty to Queen and Country" wasn't bringing in the numbers, and more recently "there's no life like it" has been tried, apparently also without satisfactory results.  So recruiting methods have more and more resembled those used (successfully, we can assume) in the civilian workforce.  I suppose the recruiting establishment does what it has to do to attract applicants, and in recent years that's tended to go a certain way.

However, there's no denying that a person needs a job and if they didn't pay us then most of us would be doing something else all day.

Offline Conscript

  • Guest
  • *
  • 560
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2009, 00:03:41 »
Never mind on time how about showing up at all. We have people who don't show up and don't call except to say "I forgot" , I didn't feel like it"  and a whole list of excuses I won't get into. The kicker is they call and want another appointment. Here in the Center I've taken a 3 strike rule. Miss 3 appointments with no call your done.

Like you Neo. I grew up in a "10 minutes early means your 5 minutes late" atmosphere. It used to drive my kids nuts. "Why do we have to leave sooooo early?"

Ahh the leaders of tomorrow. Scares the hell out me!

When I was 12 I was 5 mins late comming out of a friends house.  My oldman left me stranded 2 towns over.  I'm alwas 10 mins early now haha

Offline FastEddy

  • Banned
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 7,120
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 875
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2009, 01:35:31 »

He had a question, so he asked.  If you don't like his question then you don't have to answer it.  Too easy.
[/color

By the same token, if you didn't like my answer, you didn't have to reply to it.   Too easy

You don't have to have a Colledge Degree (but it might help in some cases), to know what a Army or Soldier does, just ask any 10 year old kid who watches TV.

If a 18 year old, today hasn't got a clue, then in my books, they are Dense.

Discipline By Example

Offline ExRCDcpl

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 5,415
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 328
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2009, 14:01:03 »
There are big repercussions for refusing to go on tour.  You may get in trouble, you may not, depending on how you go about it.  That doesn't mean there aren't other consequences.  Let me tell you a story.....

We had a guy who pretty much went through all of workup training etc etc.  Last minute he went to the padre and gave some nonsense excuse why he couldn't deploy.  He was pulled off tour and he thought he got what he wanted.  He has since been swept under the rug by the regiment and getting looked over for course after course. 

All of his friends, not the leadership, but his actual friends labeled him a coward and none of them will even so much as say hi to him in the morning.  He now comes to work and pretty much sits by himself all day.  He says getting himself removed from tour was the biggest mistake of his life.

So in short, yes, you can "refuse" to deploy if you join.  But expect to have a lonely unsatifying career with a handicapped chance at advancement.

Offline Nauticus

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 7,595
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 397
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2009, 14:30:34 »
I don't agree that the union, job specific attitude is a youth thing. I find it's usually the older crowd who are these hardcore union types. Even the government workplace that you described is populated by the older crowd, as opposed to the younger.

I don't see that attitude that you described as being a youth problem at all.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2009, 14:49:22 by Nauticus »
"Fate guides who will; who won't, it drags."

Online Target Up

    ........pull, patch, and score.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 221,880
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,807
  • that's how we roll in redneck land
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2009, 14:34:12 »
There are big repercussions for refusing to go on tour.  You may get in trouble, you may not, depending on how you go about it.  That doesn't mean there aren't other consequences.  Let me tell you a story.....

We had a guy who pretty much went through all of workup training etc etc.  Last minute he went to the padre and gave some nonsense excuse why he couldn't deploy.  He was pulled off tour and he thought he got what he wanted.  He has since been swept under the rug by the regiment and getting looked over for course after course. 

All of his friends, not the leadership, but his actual friends labeled him a coward and none of them will even so much as say hi to him in the morning.  He now comes to work and pretty much sits by himself all day.  He says getting himself removed from tour was the biggest mistake of his life.

So in short, yes, you can "refuse" to deploy if you join.  But expect to have a lonely unsatifying career with a handicapped chance at advancement.

Yup, shunned like an Amish crack dealer.  Right and proper thing.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline NavyPhoenix

  • Mentor
  • Member
  • *
  • 7,855
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 159
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2009, 14:37:24 »
Gotta say, Nauticus has a point with his comment on age.  The younger ones who have this 'union' attitude probably learned it from the older ones.

Guess there is attitude issues with all generations.

Offline Roy Harding

    He\'s Back.

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 14,950
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,233
Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2009, 14:56:33 »
I can't imagine why somebody wouldn't want to go on tour, if they were in the military. That's basically the point of the military, and if that's an issue, then that person should simply find employment elsewhere.

WAY back, I requested to not go on a tour.

Our youngest son was born VERY pre-mature - he weighed less than 2 lbs when born (in 1985 - when the technology was VERY good, but not quite what it is now), and spent the first three months of his life in the ICU.  After we brought him home, he didn't grow much at first.  The five bones that comprise your skull were beginning to "fuse" pre-maturely (any medics present feel free to correct my terminology), and the Doctors involved said he had to be scheduled for surgery to basically "break his skull", so that his brain could develop normally (baby's skulls are "soft" for a reason).  The surgery was scheduled right smack dab in the middle of the tour.

I was excused from the tour - no repercussions - everybody (friends and leadership both) accepted that I had a good reason to stay home from that particular tour.

I bring it up only to illustrate why sometimes one DOES need to stay home - and the individual involved doesn't necessarily need to find employment elsewhere.

For the curious:  That was the one and ONLY time I was ever on a Rear Party - it sucks big time.  The baby in question is now full grown, is a Registered Nurse, and curiously enough - employed in a major ICU in Edmonton.
I love mankind.  It's people I can't stand.

Linus van Pelt