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New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« on: December 08, 2009, 09:30:01 »
B.C. shipbuilders seek share of $40 billion in federal funding
 By SCOTT SIMPSON, VANCOUVER SUNDecember 7, 2009
Article Link

West coast shipbuilders are vying to win British Columbia an equitable share of $40 billion promised by Ottawa to upgrade Canada’s marine fleet.

The federal Conservatives are expected to announce later this month how they intend to disperse funding for a massive upgrade of defence and security vessels — and put the nation’s marine industry on long-term, sustainable footing.

John Shaw, chair of the recently formed Pacific Coast Shipbuilders Association, said on Monday that “the west coast doesn’t want to be bypassed on the national shipbuilding policy.”

Last July, National Defence Minister Peter MacKay announced a fleet renewal plan to build more than 50 large vessels for the Department of National Defence and the Coast Guard, plus another 70 smaller vessels of less than 1,000 tonnes.
More on link
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 14:27:36 by kratz »
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Offline Sapperian

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Re: B.C. shipbuilders seek share of $40 billion in federal funding
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2009, 09:57:41 »
About time if you ask me.
Please take the above with a grain of salt.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: B.C. shipbuilders seek share of $40 billion in federal funding
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2009, 12:41:36 »
Wait until the shipyards get the contracts and the first keels laid down...
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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Offline VIChris

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Re: B.C. shipbuilders seek share of $40 billion in federal funding
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2009, 15:23:38 »
About time if you ask me.

Amen!

One of my welding instructors was called in as a subject matter expert on some talks here in Victoria recently, and he gave us some hope in terms of what he heard from the government representatives. If even a small fraction of the work is done out here, it will be a big help. It's not just the shipyards that are hurting, but many of the smaller fab shops that are subcontracted to make components for the big companies have been hit hard this year too.
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Offline Spectrum

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Re: B.C. shipbuilders seek share of $40 billion in federal funding
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2009, 19:53:17 »
So are we ever getting any damn replacements for the 280's?


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Re: B.C. shipbuilders seek share of $40 billion in federal funding
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2009, 18:48:35 »
So are we ever getting any damn replacements for the 280's?



Discussed time and time again.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
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Offline NavyShooter

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Re: B.C. shipbuilders seek share of $40 billion in federal funding
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2010, 18:04:45 »
Believe it when I see it happen.

Hey, at least it won't be HSL/Irving getting all the money....that'd be a waste....
Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Offline MarkOttawa

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New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2010, 08:03:32 »
It seems to me that this, completely politically motivated (and the Liberals would do nothing very different), can only guarantee greatly added costs and slower delivery--and as for number of ships (usual copyright disclaimer)?

Federal shipbuilding plan will pit East against West: officials
http://news.globaltv.com/canada/Federal+shipbuilding+plan+will+East+against+West+officials/3037281/story.html

Quote
The Harper government is expected to release its long-term shipbuilding strategy in the coming weeks, creating two national centres to handle billions of dollars worth of contracts.

The strategy could spark a high-stakes game pitting West Coast firms against East Coast companies in a winner-take-all contest, industry officials say.

Washington Marine Group on the West Coast and J.D. Irving on the East Coast will be asked to submit proposals to become the "centre of excellence" for building combat ships such as the Arctic patrol vessels and the fleet of vessels that will eventually replace the navy's Halifax-class frigates.

Another centre for larger non-combat ships — including the navy's proposed new supply vessels, the Joint Support Ships, as well as the coast guard's polar icebreaker — will also be created, industry representatives say.

Davie Yards in Quebec is the prime contender for that, in part, because it is considered the only shipbuilder in the country big enough to handle such work.

Work on the national shipbuilding strategy started almost a year ago when federal officials met behind closed doors with industry representatives in Gatineau, Que.

The government is not talking publicly about the contents of the new policy, although Defence Minister Peter MacKay has said it will soon be released.

But some shipbuilding officials around the country as well as defence industry representatives in Ottawa have been briefed. A memo to cabinet was also produced on the policy, they said...

The government's rationale for directing most large contracts to a few shipyards is that it will keep those companies continually at work and able to develop a skilled workforce. In the past the industry has gone through peak periods of work building a number of warships, only to have that dwindle as contracts end. The result then is layoffs and expertise eventually being lost.

It is still unclear exactly when the strategy will be announced.

"I've got nothing to announce at this time," MacKay's spokesman Dan Dugas said in an e-mail.

The $2.1-billion JSS project was to buy three vessels capable of resupplying warships at sea. But it was derailed in 2008 when the government determined that various bids did not meet the requirements of the new fleet and were too expensive.

Will we at least consider foreign designs?

Dutch moving forward on their version of Joint Support Ship
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/11/dutch-moving-forward-on-their-version.html

More on new Dutch version of Joint Support Ship
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2010/01/more-on-new-dutch-version-of-joint.html

Joint Support Ship problems: No surprise (note Aussie offshore approach near end)
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2008/05/joint-support-ship-problems-no-surprise.html

Foreign designs for new Navy ships?
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/09/foreign-designs-for-new-navy-ships.html

Mark
Ottawa
« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 12:45:55 by MarkOttawa »
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2010, 10:47:37 »
If this is all that is in the "Strategy", then it is a dismal failure (and it took them a year to come up with that?).

It does not address the single most important factor in the current situation: The government!

The problem of the shipbuilding industry in canada constantly going from boom to bust is not that the shipyards can't retain their tradesmen and other specialist, it is that the government consistently orders in large batches, then let the fleet rust out before purchasing again.

I said it in another post: No trucking company that needs fifty trucks with a life span of 10 years buys them all in a shot: they buy  five new ones every year. The same should apply to ship's acquisition by the Federal government. That is where the strategy must start. And you must ensure the strategy will stick long term through various governing parties.

When you work with contracts, there are no sufficient guarantees for the industry. Everyone will recall Mr. Chrétiens' "I'll take my pen and say zero helicopters" with all the associated costs and consequences. You cannot have a shipbuilding strategy subject to that, because it would then not work out.

So a first step is for the government to derive a "base" fleet level for the military and coast guard and science vessels together: This is your starting figure that you then spread over the average lifetime. This gives you annual new constructions. You finally put those you foresee as required for the next 10 years into a Maritime Appropriation Bill that is voted in Parliament and secures the constructions and funding for all those years. After that, every five years, you present a new Maritime Appropriation Bill to cover the next five years following the end of the current bill. As can be seen, the next appropriation is always beginning five years after the adoption in Parliament. This makes for sufficient certainty and foreseeability for the industry, sufficient control for adaptation to circumstances, and as they are bills, a much harder, public and difficult matter to  change every time political masters fall out of favour.

Moreover, resorting to such bill would mean a parliamentary debate over the Navy and Coast Guard needs every five years that would keep both of them and their importance to the nation in the public eyes in much more positive ways than the current "contract" system, which only emphasizes the expansive nature of shipbuilding and political dealings that accompany such large contracts, to the expanse of the positive aspects of having a Navy and Coast Guard. In fact, it would mean that every five years, the Admiral and the Head of the Coast Guard would appear in a public committee of parliament and explain what they have done with the fleet in the last few years and why the next ships will be required in five to ten years. This would go a long way towards securing the public support for the fleets and their understanding of the ongoing need for such ships - something the current system fails abysmally to provide.


Offline Monsoon

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2010, 11:14:44 »
The problem of the shipbuilding industry in canada constantly going from boom to bust is not that the shipyards can't retain their tradesmen and other specialist, it is that the government consistently orders in large batches, then let the fleet rust out before purchasing again.
Without having seen the strategy, obviously all is speculation - but I have seen some aspects of recent announcements that suggest that the plan is to rectify exactly this problem. The first thing is the government's reference to a $40B naval shipbuilding budget over the next 20 years; the second one is mention of replacing the Halifax class frigates over the next 20 years. What this suggests to me is that, far from buying "all in one shot", the plan is to get replacement surface combattants rolling off the blocks once every 18 months to 2 years once they get started. Presumably as soon as you're done building the whole class, you're ready to send the first ones into mid-life refit, and by the time you've refitted them all you're ready to replace the first of the class in the same manner.

By creating so-called "centres of excellence", you avoid the modularized approach that sees every shipyard in the country build one part of a frigate for a couple of years every 40. Maybe two centres is too much for a fleet Canada's size (I think the US only has five comparable large construction yards), but it's a step in the right direction. Presumably a long introduction span means that the navy is going to put less of a premium on class identicalness, but so what? The alternative seems to work for just about every other fleet in the world.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2010, 11:46:01 »
I agree this is all speculations, which is why I started my post with "If". But the newspaper article quoted is completely mum on spreading construction evenly.

If  this spreading you mention is part of the strategy, then good on the government. However, government policy is just that: policy. It can be changed easily every time you change ruling party. I still think proceeding by appropriation bills makes it easier for the industry to plan and act - not to mention the public support aspect I mentioned.

Also, the Conservative government of Stephen Harper came to power on a platform of democratic reform, better governance and respect for the Parliamentary institutions, such as when he submitted Afghan deployment extension to a vote of Parliament. Can you think of a better case to live up to the "no taxation without representation" call that lead to representative government than voting on $B40 of public funds? I can't. 

Offline RumRunner

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2010, 22:18:13 »
Wow, OGBD. THis is exactly what I keep saying. Of course, you say it more eloquently than I ever could . I especially like the political insight.
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Offline Kat Stevens

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2010, 22:46:50 »
The unions will kill the shipyards long before the government can.  The Brits used to be pretty good at shipbuilding, but by the mid 70's the unions had destroyed the entire industry.
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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2010, 23:37:32 »
I will applaude it when the first CPF and 280 replacement actually comes off the slips. See I am not holding my breath.  :salute:
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2010, 21:21:55 »
Oldgateboatdriver, you will be my Minister of the Navy when I am Ruler of Canada.
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Offline Nuggs

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2010, 21:25:03 »
Oldgateboatdriver, you will be my Minister of the Navy when I am Ruler of Canada.

The man who would be Queen? :P
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Offline je suis prest

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2010, 17:46:12 »
News items indicate the new ship-building policy will be announced tomorrow at the CANSEC 2010 conference.

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2010, 20:29:01 »
We have a ship building strategy ???? :rofl:

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2010, 10:58:41 »
There's always a first time.

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2010, 12:49:31 »
This is an article from radiocanada.ca, didn't found any topic related to this on the forum. I also coudn't find a similar article on cbc.ca. 

Ottawa ferait une importante annonce liée à la construction navale. Le gouvernement Harper dévoilera sa stratégie navale dans le cadre du salon de l'armement à Ottawa. Des dizaines de milliards de dollars seraient investis dans l'achat de navires pour la marine et la garde côtière canadiennes.

Le ministre de la Défense Peter MacKay, la ministre des Pêches et des Océans Gail Shea ainsi que la ministre des Travaux publics Rona Ambrose participeront à l'événement.

Selon la Presse canadienne, le gouvernement fédéral commanderait 50 navires de grande dimension à différents fournisseurs. L'investissement est d'environ 40 milliards de dollars au cours des 30 prochaines années.

Trois grands chantiers navals du Québec, de la Nouvelle-Écosse et de la Colombie-Britannique se partageraient ces contrats. Des politiciens de Terre-Neuve-et-Labrador s'attendent également à ce que leur province bénéficie des retombées de ces investissements.

Le dernier navire de guerre à prendre le large au Canada remonte à il y a 14 ans, selon le général Walter Natynczynk, chef d'état-major de la Défense.

Here translated with google

Ottawa would make a major announcement related to shipbuilding. The Harper government will unveil its naval strategy in the arms fair in Ottawa. Tens of billions are invested in the purchase of ships for the Navy and the Canadian Coast Guard.

The Defence Minister Peter MacKay, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and Gail Shea, Minister of Public Works Rona Ambrose will attend the event.

According to Canadian Press, the federal government would order 50 large vessels at different suppliers. The investment is about 40 billion dollars over the next 30 years.

Three major shipyards of Quebec, Nova Scotia and British Columbia will share these contracts. Politicians of Newfoundland and Labrador also expect that their province benefits from these investments.

The last warship to take off in Canada goes back 14 years ago, according to Gen. Walter Natynczynk, Chief of Staff of Defense.


Hope this will allow our navy to stay relevant for the coming years and the new challenges that are coming.  Is there anybody who as more info?

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2010, 14:33:25 »
Well, here it is.  Shared with the usual disclaimers....

I'll believe it when I see it..

MacKay lays out $30B shipbuilding policy
Last Updated: Thursday, June 3, 2010 | 1:54 PM ET Comments15Recommend22CBC News
Defence Minister Peter MacKay on Thursday laid out Ottawa's $30-billion plan to reinvigorate Canada's moribund shipbuilding industry.

HMCS Preserver, the navy's 40-year-old Halifax-based supply ship, rests at drydock at the Halifax shipyards on June 3. (Andrew Vaughan/Canadian Press)
MacKay said the government will establish a long-term relationship with two Canadian shipyards for the procurement of the large ships — one to build combat vessels, the other to build non-combat vessels.

"The plan is to select two Canadian shipyards in a fair and transparent process," he said at the CANSEC arms show in Ottawa. "We expect to have these contracts signed within two years."

The plan calls for building 28 new large ships over the next decade, for a cost of more than $30 billion.

Ottawa has been trying for the better part of a year to iron out a national policy that would get major shipbuilding companies to work together.

"This national shipbuilding procurement strategy will bring predictability and eliminate the cycles of boom and bust," said Public Works Minister Rona Ambrose, also on hand at the event. "It is about using Canadian sources to fill Canadian needs."

Critics have long complained about Canada's disjointed naval policy.

The country's top military commander told the defence industry on Wednesday that new ships for the navy was his No. 1 procurement need, and noted it has been 14 years since the last major warship was launched in Canada.

He noted the 38-year-old, 5,100-tonne command-and-control destroyer HMCS Iroquois will soon be the oldest frontline warship in the western world.

"We need to cut steel on new ships," Gen. Walter Natynczyk, chief of defence staff, said Wednesday.



Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2010/06/03/mackay-shipbuilding-cansec.html#socialcomments#ixzz0poffmzlE

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2010, 15:02:07 »
That's it ???

I must be missing something here:

First of all, it looks like the next two years are for writing and signing the contracts that appoint the two shipyards to be selected. I assume those contracts will spell out what the shipyards need to maintain as a knowledge base or financial structure or what have you to remain the selectee. So no new constructions for two years at least.

Secondly, how does calling for the construction of 28 unspecified "large" ships in the next decade (then not having your "plan" go further) differ from a boom-bust cycle? This is just the next boom if we do not come up with guaranteed further orders thereafter at an agreed constant rate.

And how will we guarantee that rate? In fact, how will the government guarantee that the 28 large ships will be ordered. Even if the "guaranteed" number of orders (without specifying type) was put in the "selection" contract, contracts can be broken (Chretien: "Zero helicopters") and the resulting damages usually cover penalties and lost profit, but it would not normally include the cost of maintaining a work force that can otherwise be laid off. So you are back to square one.

P.S. Can someone help me here: what makes a ship "large"? When I pass by a frigate with an Orca, I tend to look at it as large, but from an aircraft carrier, I usually find them puny.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2010, 15:41:41 »
(Note post changed significantly.) Oldgateboatdriver: 28 "Large" ships--I presume they mean JSS (3), A/OPS (6-8), Canadian Surface Combatant (destroyer/frigate replacemen--12?) for Navy: total 21-23; so remainder would presumably be new icebreakers (and other sizeable vessels) acquired for the Coast Guard:
http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/eng/Ccg/fleet

Which might leave the CCG rather short if you count up their such vessels (some 13) and age.

But then the CSCs are not likely to be built in any large numbers by 2021:
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4296901

So maybe most ships this decade will be for CCG.  Here's the status of their major vessel programs:
http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/rpp/2010-2011/inst/dfo/st-ts07-eng.asp

Not sure exactly which qualify as "large".

Mark
Ottawa
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 16:42:31 by MarkOttawa »
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline 57Chevy

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2010, 18:33:17 »
OTTAWA — Canada's ship yards will be "humming like they haven't hummed since the Second World War" under a $35 billion, 30-year federal shipbuilding strategy announced Thursday, says Defence Minister Peter MacKay.


The government will select two Canadian shipyards — one to construct large combat vessels, the other for non-combat ships — within the next two years, and contracts for smaller ships would be open to bids by other Canadian shipyards. Competition would be national and overseen by a "fairness monitor."


The "national shipbuilding procurement strategy" was welcomed as "a big step" by Peter Cairns, a retired Canadian vice-admiral who heads the Shipbuilders Association of Canada. He said shipyards in Newfoundland, Halifax, Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia would be eligible to compete for the major work and the industry will work together.


He also predicted highly-skilled workers from the East Coast will be lured home from the Alberta oilsands for the highly-skilled jobs.


"We've been pushing for something like this for quite some time," he said. "It's very important for the government to actually acknowledge that the shipbuilding industry is important to the country, is strategic to the country, for Maritime defence.


"For the longest time people looked at shipbuilding as an old industry, where the only tool you need is a sledgehammer, when in fact it's a very high-tech industry. Inside it's as sophisticated as a space shuttle or any airplane that's flying."


MacKay said the priority is the construction of joint supply ships for the Canadian navy, a project that has been delayed for two years since the government halted the procurement process due to bidders' non-compliance with requirements and costs.


The plan that MacKay and three other ministers announced at a military trade show got a thumbs up from Peter Stoffer, a Nova Scotia New Democrat MP who has lobbied for a federal policy to rejuvenate the shipbuilding industry for years, and was on hand for the announcement.


"I will give them credit," Stoffer said. "In 2003, John Manley . . . said shipbuilding was a sunset industry."


He was referring to former federal finance minister John Manley who repeatedly told MPs that the then Liberal government could not afford huge subsidies for shipbuilding.


Stoffer said he hoped the strategy would not lead to a wasteful duel among the handful of shipyards in Canada because there was enough work for everybody.


"You could have the West Coast and East Coast spending millions of dollars fighting each other over these competitive bids," he said. "If the government worked with the industry, and I'm hoping that they'll do that . . . that money could go to building ships instead of beating each other over the head in the competition."


Public Works Minister Rona Ambrose said the plan would generate 75 million hours of work across the country over three decades.


"This strategy will be the framework through which the government invests $35 billion over the next thirty years to acquire twenty-eight large vessels for the Canadian Coast Guard and the Canadian navy, as well as more than a hundred smaller ships," MacKay said.


The shipyards would be expected to invest in training to prepare their workforce and the facilities would have to show regional balance in subcontracts.


"There's going to be enough work for all the shipyards," MacKay told reporters, enumerating a need to replace combat vessels, supply ships, icebreakers, coast guard vessels, and Arctic operations vessels.


"We're well on our way to an important process, an important strategy, that is going to see the shipyards across the country humming like they haven't hummed since the Second World War."

© Copyright (c) Canwest News Service


Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/canada/Shipbuilding+strategy+will+leave+yards+humming+MacKay/3107934/story.html#ixzz0ppdjo9xh

Offline donaldk

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2010, 21:49:25 »
Basically to summarize the Minister of National Defence released a statement on the conservative's proposed new ship building strategy.

Summary: $35B proposed to create two national ship yards to build military and civilian government vessels over the next 30 years, with consideration to eliminate boom-bust cycles.

Linkage:
http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2010/06/03/mackay-shipbuilding-cansec.html

What do you guys think?  I think it is a step in the right direction. Let the debate begin...  >:D