Author Topic: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy  (Read 686197 times)

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jollyjacktar

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2010, 15:02:31 »
You're reading my mind.

I agree totally and speaking as a end user this is the way to go.  I will go further and say "screw waiting years for these ships.  Go offshore now and get the ships in a couple of years or less"  I saw a documentary where Hyundai for example can go from cutting steel to turnover in 10 months.

However, to play Devil's advocate, this (AORs and Phibs) would require more personnel in an already stressed and degrading numbers game, and of course this has to be a "Made in Canada" solution for the acquisition of the ships.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2010, 15:34:38 »
Ah! But that is not so my padiwan-learner!

The Mistral/Dodko are designed to operate with a crew of approx. 170 to 180, which is easier to man than AOR's. As for the AOR's, you could operate in rotation two of them (one per coast at any given time) and the new ones would certainly have a much smaller crew than the current ones (with diesel electric propulsion and since the AOR's that I have in mind -and I think Ex-D also - would be dedicated to no other type of mission, you could probably get by  with today's automation with  crew of about 120).

Moreover, if you have had the chance (or  bad luck :) ) of following some of my past post, you will see that I advocate turning any "pure" AOR over to the CFAV's, just like the Brits, to aleviate manning problems.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2010, 15:50:53 »
Additional on my last: The 120 crew for new AOR's properly automated includes all the logistics people and air group. With automation, you can run an AOR the navy way with a "hard sea trade [which includes cooks]" crew of 45 and run a four watch rotation.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2010, 18:02:12 »
Although beyond the JSS/AOPs/SCSC no other naval ship type has been talked about, so I am think the 'big honking ship' dream of General Hillier might have been just that, a dream.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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Offline karl28

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2010, 18:30:13 »
             I am just wondering instead of having a multi-role ship like the JSS wouldn't it be cheaper to have one Fuel supply ship  and than one cargo ship ? Forgive me I do not know the proper terms for those ships .

Offline Spectrum

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2010, 19:06:50 »
I will leave it to the naval experts to further answer your question, but having just one AOR (the fuel supply ship in your words) won't cut it. You have to factor in training, deployments, refits etc into the rotation of the fleet. If I'm not mistaken, a few posts back someone suggested having 3-4 AORs...that makes more sense to me.

I can't believe they are still trying to do this JSS thing as opposed to getting some friggin AOR hulls in the water. And for the love of good, no amphibs...there are plenty of other priorities.

Just my 2 cents from a non-navy guy.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2010, 19:12:26 »
             I am just wondering instead of having a multi-role ship like the JSS wouldn't it be cheaper to have one Fuel supply ship  and than one cargo ship ? Forgive me I do not know the proper terms for those ships .

Hi Karl,
  The reason why we use AORs is because they can carry both cargo and fuel. If we had two different types as you indicate that would mean twice the assets we would have to crew and escort.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline 57Chevy

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #57 on: June 04, 2010, 19:21:45 »
Public Works Minister Rona Ambrose said the plan would generate 75 million hours of work across the country over three decades.

That's great news for the economy no matter how you look at it

Offline gcclarke

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #58 on: June 04, 2010, 20:46:15 »
Although beyond the JSS/AOPs/SCSC no other naval ship type has been talked about, so I am think the 'big honking ship' dream of General Hillier might have been just that, a dream.

As for AOPs, I'll believe it when I see it, and even then, I'll be sure to double check my glasses prescription.
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.  Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘Press On’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
- Calvin Coolidge

Offline karl28

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #59 on: June 04, 2010, 21:28:54 »
Ex-Dragoon

               Thanks for that eplenation makes sense to me .

Cheers Karl

Offline RV

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2010, 04:01:48 »
As for AOPs, I'll believe it when I see it, and even then, I'll be sure to double check my glasses prescription.

AOPS is the only planned ship with a design that's evolved enough to start cutting steel within a couple of months of signing a contract.

Within the next two years though, I expect there will be at least three more types with designs ready including the CCG OOSV, FRV, and with any luck the JSS.  I'm crossing my fingers for the heavy ice breaker as well, but we'll see.

Offline RV

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2010, 04:19:12 »
I agree totally and speaking as a end user this is the way to go.  I will go further and say "screw waiting years for these ships.  Go offshore now and get the ships in a couple of years or less"  I saw a documentary where Hyundai for example can go from cutting steel to turnover in 10 months.

However, to play Devil's advocate, this (AORs and Phibs) would require more personnel in an already stressed and degrading numbers game, and of course this has to be a "Made in Canada" solution for the acquisition of the ships.

Hyundai can build a ship this size in 10 months, but their are a lot of conditions.  You have to accept that you can't make any changes to the original design (whatever it happens to be), you have no meaningful quality or safety oversight on construction, and you can forget about military standards like copper nickel piping systems.  It works great for commercial carriers who want to build series vessels for cheap with minimal to zero design changes from an existing design.  But good luck to you trying to build a prototype military vessel or get the Koreans to read a NATO RAS standard.  You'll be lucky to get it built in Hyundai at all, much less in 10 months.

Offline Lex Parsimoniae

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2010, 17:55:32 »
Hyundai can build a ship this size in 10 months, but their are a lot of conditions.  You have to accept that you can't make any changes to the original design (whatever it happens to be), you have no meaningful quality or safety oversight on construction, and you can forget about military standards like copper nickel piping systems.  It works great for commercial carriers who want to build series vessels for cheap with minimal to zero design changes from an existing design.  But good luck to you trying to build a prototype military vessel or get the Koreans to read a NATO RAS standard.  You'll be lucky to get it built in Hyundai at all, much less in 10 months.
The RAN are pretty happy with HMAS Sirius - built at Hyundai Mipo Dockyard in South Korea and then modified by Tenix Defence in Fremantle.  Not a full AOR for sure but cheap and effective.

Offline gcclarke

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2010, 18:19:57 »
AOPS is the only planned ship with a design that's evolved enough to start cutting steel within a couple of months of signing a contract.

Within the next two years though, I expect there will be at least three more types with designs ready including the CCG OOSV, FRV, and with any luck the JSS.  I'm crossing my fingers for the heavy ice breaker as well, but we'll see.

My concerns with the AOPs are not from a procument point of view. Rather, I question exactly how we're expected to be able to man them. I guess we'll see what happens the day after the CMS is forced to ask the Defence Minister which frigates he'd like to mothball in order to allow us to crew the AOPs.
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.  Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘Press On’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
- Calvin Coolidge

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2010, 18:49:54 »
The RAN are pretty happy with HMAS Sirius - built at Hyundai Mipo Dockyard in South Korea and then modified by Tenix Defence in Fremantle.  Not a full AOR for sure but cheap and effective.

With one RAS station from the photographs I have seen and no hangar I can't see a ship like that in our Navy. Not sure how effective it is, if you have to refuel and relenish from the same station.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 18:54:32 by Ex-Dragoon »
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline Infanteer

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2010, 00:42:08 »
Although beyond the JSS/AOPs/SCSC no other naval ship type has been talked about, so I am think the 'big honking ship' dream of General Hillier might have been just that, a dream.

An interesting point - General Hillier's "BHS" was the centerpiece to his joint forces strategy.  All that died a quiet death when Afghanistan took center stage and demanded the lion's share of the CF's  time, attention and resources.

Will we revisit a Joint Amphibious Strategy when Afghanistan is drawn down?
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline RV

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2010, 03:18:20 »
The RAN are pretty happy with HMAS Sirius - built at Hyundai Mipo Dockyard in South Korea and then modified by Tenix Defence in Fremantle.  Not a full AOR for sure but cheap and effective.

I'm glad to hear they are satisfied, but purchasing a conventional commercial tanker at 10 months build time and then converting it over 27 months is a 37 month build program, not a 10 month build program as was previously quoted.

Note that nearly 2/3rds of the construction time and I can guarantee that most of the construction cost occurred in Australia, performed by an Australian yard.

Offline mikhar1

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2010, 19:50:11 »
Help get one of Canada's new navy ships named HMCS Barrie

Now that the Government of Canada plans to triple the size of our Navy fleet this is a perfect time to have one of the new ships named after the great city of Barrie On.

With Barrie’s long proud heritage in supporting the Armed Forces and its location to Base Borden Canada’s largest training base the naming of one of these new ships with the cities name would bring great pride to it’s residents.

Join the page on Facebook under " Help get one of Canada's new navy ships named HMCS Barrie "

Also under discussions you will be able to discuss topics like what will the new ship be ( LCS like in the U.S.) or will Lockheed Martin or General Dynamics get a chance to bid.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Help-get-one-of-Canadas-new-navy-ships-named-HMCS-Barrie/122462914457951?v=app_2373072738&ref=ts#!/pages/Help-get-one-of-Canadas-new-navy-ships-named-HMCS-Barrie/122462914457951



Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #68 on: June 07, 2010, 21:07:23 »
::) Lets wait till we actually get the ships before we worry what we are going to call them...
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline northernboy_24

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #69 on: June 07, 2010, 21:28:04 »
Now that the Government of Canada plans to triple the size of our Navy fleet this is a perfect time to have one of the new ships named after the great city of Barrie On.

I am a little confused where the government of Canada has said it will triple our fleet size.  Perhaps it is my ignorance.

Offline gcclarke

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #70 on: June 07, 2010, 21:37:52 »
Apparently announcing that you're going to be building a whole boat-load of ships, pardon the pun, leads some people to assume that we're not going to be disposing of the ships that will be rusting out in the meantime.
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.  Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘Press On’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
- Calvin Coolidge

Offline Spectrum

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #71 on: June 07, 2010, 21:39:01 »
It's Orwellian in nature.

Decreasing the fleet but saying it is being tripled!

Double Plus Good!  ;D

Offline mikhar1

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #72 on: June 07, 2010, 22:11:02 »
I hear what you are saying but I did read somewhere ( of course now I can't find ) that with the money being put into this effort will basically triple the size of the current fleet when combined with large and small ships over a period of time.

As soon as I find the article I will post it here.   :nod:

Offline ekpiper

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #73 on: June 07, 2010, 23:41:53 »
WRT naming, I really think Canada needs better names.  There's no real lustre or power in the names, just a place.  It's not inventive, and it's not alluring.  I actually think that better  ship names might actually be good for recruiting, as it stirs up emotions in people, showing qualities that the navy has, daring, audacious, dauntless. 

Good Names:  HMCS Puncher, HMS Daring, HMS Invincible, HMS Audacity, HMS Atlantis, HMS Dauntless

My  :2c:

Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #74 on: June 08, 2010, 10:48:19 »
Don't forget the Flower class, HMS Pansy  :nod: