Author Topic: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy  (Read 739651 times)

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Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2125 on: January 07, 2018, 20:58:20 »
I will contact Bezan office tomorrow. If he’s stating this in public, there will be a referring document.

About the CDR magazine, nice ad in there from PALAerospace on the 8Q300. I wish them much success.

Also, on page  51 and 78 there is a new GGI of AOPS (Looking good) and the bow assembled to the rest of the ship on HdW.  That is indeed a monstrous ship!

Offline Underway

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2126 on: January 07, 2018, 21:06:37 »
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/frigate-design-problems-1.4181542

Maybe Gibbs & Cox was hired by Irving to help design the twelve general-purpose frigates?

Haha no.  Gibbs & Cox audited the RCN's requirements if I recall correctly.  That, from what I hear is a bizarre story in an of itself thanks to ITAR.

Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2127 on: January 07, 2018, 21:17:24 »
Haha no.  Gibbs & Cox audited the RCN's requirements if I recall correctly.  That, from what I hear is a bizarre story in an of itself thanks to ITAR.
They are doing a lot more than that.  http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/1447901-u.s.-only-the-rule-for-some-irving-navy-contract-jobs

Offline Underway

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2128 on: January 07, 2018, 21:32:43 »
Cool.  I'm not surprised, ITAR can place burdens in odd places.

jollyjacktar

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2129 on: January 07, 2018, 22:00:08 »
Seeing as many of the big wheels at ISI are retired USN Admirals, it doesn't shock me at the rules and connections to US Contractors.

Offline Czech_pivo

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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2131 on: January 07, 2018, 23:59:28 »
It'd be disconcerting to some if Canada could build ships at Davie prices instead of Gibbs & Cox prices.

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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2132 on: January 08, 2018, 00:00:17 »
Reading the most recent issue of CDR and in the interview with the Shadow Minister for National Defence it's mentioned (by the Shadow Minister) that the current CSC contract underwent a redraft to only guarantee 3 ships for the designer.  It's inferred that the next 12 ships might be a different design, leading to a potential AAW ship design and a seperate company doing the GP design.  There has been no discussion on this I can find anywhere.  The accusation indicates that this one of the reasons a number of bids were not submitted.

Is this opposition bluster or is there some meat to this?

I think it's set up for flights of ships; the first few ships will have the learning curve so you will want your milestone payments structured accordingly. That way you can negotiate the cost/payment methods differently once they hit their stride and develop some kind of performance incentives that make sense once you have some experience. Because of the general methodology of how they build the ships now you almost want to look four-six ships down the line before you change variants so you can make sure you allow enough time for design changes to get planned and incorporated into the modules. They will be building parts of three ships at a time and stuff like cable hangers, penetrations etc get done at the module level so there is a lot of lead, or big impacts from rework (including creating backlogs on the production line).

Depending which company wins then there may already be different variants available, so that shouldn't be an issue, unless we do something clever like pick a totally different weapons system that has quite different interface requirement (ie different cooling, power, structural reinforcement etc) that make it more than a plug and play.

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2133 on: January 08, 2018, 10:02:11 »
Following on from what Navy_Pete said, I heard via the rumour net, but a very well informed rumour net that I trust, the intent of the NSPS designers was a steady flow of ships over years, even decades ~ one "class" of (very large) frigates in three for our five different "batches," each somewhat different, especially in technology fits, from the others.

That "class" would begin being replaced by the first "batch" of a new class before the last "batch" of the old class finished mid-life refit.

The idea was the the Navy could keep two yards in (roughly permanent) business so that 'federal fleet' (RCN and Coast Guard) orders would smooth out the peaks and valleys of the business cycle.

The planners, I was told, always thought that there would be more than just two "big honkin' ships" and that there would be a replacement for the MCDV somewhere in a "NSPS2" but they ended their deliberations at $(CA)35+ Billion because that was seen to be "more than enough" for the Canadian public to swallow.
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Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2134 on: January 08, 2018, 10:23:30 »
That would certainly drive cost per unit up, if you were redesigning/reengineering every 3 ships....  ???
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2135 on: January 08, 2018, 11:42:43 »
Davie--self-interestedly but with reason--weighs in on the ancient Coast Guard icebreaking fleet front (most work in fact is on Seaway and off Atlantic Canada):

Quote
Cold snap raises concerns about coast guard's aging icebreakers in the St. Lawrence
Recent equipment problems prompts calls to replace old vessels

A mechanical break that kept icebreaker Terry Fox from providing assistance to a trapped ferry between Quebec City and Lévis earlier this week is renewing calls to replace the coast guard's aging icebreaker fleet.

"The fleet of icebreakers is old," said Steven Blaney, the Conservative MP for Bellechasse-Les-Etchemins-Lévis.

The ferry was eventually towed to shore by a private company and the Terry Fox icebreaker is now undergoing repairs so that it can be up and running again.

After the incident on Wednesday, the ferry service between Quebec City and Lévis had to be cancelled Friday because of the accumulation of ice along the St. Lawrence River.

    Quebec port business at risk without new icebreakers, documents warn

"We need icebreakers," said Blaney. "Even with the existing strategy to replace the ships, the fleet will continue to grow old."

While a spokesperson for the coast guard acknowledged the aging vessels, she also defended the entity's work over the last week.

"We have deployed all of our ships and we're covering all of our key sectors," said Julie Gascon.

The criticism raised after the incident involving the Quebec City ferry also failed to mention the efforts made by the coast guard, she added.

"I really think it's a shame," she said. "Our teams are working day and night to serve clients."

Davie shipyard offers help

The Davie shipyard in Lévis has also offered to loan four of its powerful icebreakers to the coast guard to subsidize number of ships available during the winter along the St. Lawrence River.

"I think this is the perfect illustration of the pertinence of the Davie shipyard in what we're calling the debacle of the coast guard because the ships are so old," he said.

The proposed project to replace the ships would also create 300 jobs for the struggling Quebec-based company, he added. Davie Canada laid off nearly 400 employees right before the Christmas holidays...


Paul Barbeau, a naval architect, warns that simply carrying out repairs to the old icebreakers isn't enough.

"Our icebreakers have worked very hard and they are tired," he said. "There is no doubt that if we want to maintain that reliability that we have to get new ones."

"We can't continue to repair them constantly — work conditions are very difficult."

    Report raises alarm over Canada's aging coast guard fleet

Frédérick Boisvert, the spokesperson for the company, said that this week's incident shows that the coast guard's current icebreakers are at the end of their life cycle.

"The federal fleet is rusting so quickly that it can only be replaced," he said...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-icebreakers-coast-guard-aging-fleet-1.4476465

Mark
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Offline Monsoon

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2136 on: January 08, 2018, 17:54:47 »
Davie--self-interestedly but with reason--weighs in on the ancient Coast Guard icebreaking fleet front (most work in fact is on Seaway and off Atlantic Canada):
Well, if Federal Fleet (as distinct from Davie, which is just the yard they work out of) can drum up more work to keep their private equity masters happy without slinging mud to try to derail existing procurements, then more power to them.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2137 on: January 08, 2018, 18:54:50 »
Monsoon: quite but on verra...would just be nice if some reason were applied to all this mess.

Mark
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Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2138 on: January 09, 2018, 11:01:29 »

Offline MTShaw

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2139 on: January 09, 2018, 12:38:01 »
I'm perplexed about the number of ships Canada is building. Fo

Wow. I didn't know that was me. I was going to make a comment about making a 4 naval groups of four ships with 15 ships. I thought i'd cancelled. Oops.

M

Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2140 on: February 01, 2018, 10:53:42 »
OFSV #2 is coming along nicely




As is the first AOP's


Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2141 on: February 01, 2018, 15:05:07 »
The AOPS is huge, eh. Looks like folks on top of the bridge could play hockey up there. Will be interesting to see it in the water dwarfing the Kingston’s and the frigates.

Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2142 on: February 06, 2018, 13:38:09 »
Somewhat related, interesting how good ideas have unintended results. 2003 would have been a good time to do the NSS and have replacement vessels before the the older vessels failed.

http://www.news1130.com/2018/02/05/federal-government-gave-millions-to-irving-subsidiary-records-reveal/

jollyjacktar

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2143 on: February 06, 2018, 13:44:18 »
The AOPS is huge, eh. Looks like folks on top of the bridge could play hockey up there. Will be interesting to see it in the water dwarfing the Kingston’s and the frigates.

She's a queer looking girl, seems to be too squat for her length.  But she needs to be so for what she is intended to do.  And yes, she is big.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2144 on: February 06, 2018, 16:09:12 »
Of course she is: She is one and half time the size of the frigates.

I don't know why we have to keep explaining this, even to seamen sometimes, but size of ships is measured by displacement, not length or width or height or draught.

She weighs a little over 6000 tons to the frigates 4200 tons, hence the is 1.5 times the size of a frigate.

We use this method because the thing that matters in ships is mo-men-tum. She will not be anywhere near the capacity of a frigate for acceleration and deceleration. Drivers beware if they have not worked large, heavy (I would almost say underpowered - at least to a naval officer) ships: Take it slow 'cause you will need more room! Ask the tanker drivers  ;)

Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2145 on: February 06, 2018, 16:12:01 »
You just have more time to watch your mistakes unfold...... ;D
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 16:50:56 by Colin P »

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2146 on: February 06, 2018, 16:26:17 »
Ah yes! Maritime accidents: You see them coming for miles ... and many long minutes (made even longer by the pit in your stomach that makes everything feel like slow motion), in full knowledge that there is just nothing in the universe that will stop what you know is about to happen from happening.

 :nod:

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2147 on: February 06, 2018, 16:52:03 »
Ah yes! Maritime accidents: You see them coming for miles ... and many long minutes (made even longer by the pit in your stomach that makes everything feel like slow motion), in full knowledge that there is just nothing in the universe that will stop what you know is about to happen from happening.

 :nod:

I had a USNS/MSC bos'n once tell me about watching a Kevlar hawser snap....for 90 seconds.  They knew it was going...and SFA they could do about it, except clear the deck. :nod:

jollyjacktar

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2148 on: February 06, 2018, 17:31:06 »
Of course she is: She is one and half time the size of the frigates.

I don't know why we have to keep explaining this, even to seamen sometimes, but size of ships is measured by displacement, not length or width or height or draught.

She weighs a little over 6000 tons to the frigates 4200 tons, hence the is 1.5 times the size of a frigate.

Frigates can load out much heavier than 4200 tons, depending on the required condition.

Harry is more of a linebacker than running back.  You want to get all that displacement to punch through, just like a linebacker.  She's designed for power not speed.  Still makes her look like one of the ugly step sisters from Cinderella.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2149 on: February 07, 2018, 09:49:27 »
I'm comparing light loads displacement.

I think the HAL's top up at around 4800 tons full load, but then, the HDW will top up at around 7000 in full load also, so it's still the same.

And BTW, , icebreaking is not done by "punching through", it is done by crushing down. Look at the bow section of the HDW on the picture. Above the water line, the bow is mostly wide and blunt, flaring out to the sides quickly - not a very hydrodynamic shape, nor shape that would do any more than pushing the ice inefficiently in front of the ship, which would block her way quickly.

However, slightly above the waterline itself, the hull takes sharp backward turn and then goes at about a 30 degree angle towards the back, creating fairly flat "sled like" shape: That's the icebreaker's trade mark (if you look at merchant ships, or the old AOR's you would see a "knife-like" shape going straight down like a wedge - with or without a bulbous bow). The ice breaker uses that "sled-like" angled hull to ride up on the ice until you get to the point where the weight of the ship riding on the ice is heavy enough to crush it below the ship, the flared bow then serving both to do the crushing and to move the crushed ice out of the way.