Author Topic: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy  (Read 685597 times)

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Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2150 on: February 07, 2018, 10:55:17 »
Nothing more peaceful, than trying to sleep on a ship breaking ice..................

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2151 on: February 07, 2018, 10:59:23 »
I'm comparing light loads displacement.

I think the HAL's top up at around 4800 tons full load, but then, the HDW will top up at around 7000 in full load also, so it's still the same.

And BTW, , icebreaking is not done by "punching through", it is done by crushing down. Look at the bow section of the HDW on the picture. Above the water line, the bow is mostly wide and blunt, flaring out to the sides quickly - not a very hydrodynamic shape, nor shape that would do any more than pushing the ice inefficiently in front of the ship, which would block her way quickly.

However, slightly above the waterline itself, the hull takes sharp backward turn and then goes at about a 30 degree angle towards the back, creating fairly flat "sled like" shape: That's the icebreaker's trade mark (if you look at merchant ships, or the old AOR's you would see a "knife-like" shape going straight down like a wedge - with or without a bulbous bow). The ice breaker uses that "sled-like" angled hull to ride up on the ice until you get to the point where the weight of the ship riding on the ice is heavy enough to crush it below the ship, the flared bow then serving both to do the crushing and to move the crushed ice out of the way.



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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2152 on: February 07, 2018, 11:26:24 »
And BTW, , icebreaking is not done by "punching through", it is done by crushing down. Look at the bow section of the HDW on the picture. Above the water line, the bow is mostly wide and blunt, flaring out to the sides quickly - not a very hydrodynamic shape, nor shape that would do any more than pushing the ice inefficiently in front of the ship, which would block her way quickly.

Crushing down is a better term for what I was envisioning in my minds eye.  Ride up, crush down through, move forwards, ride up .........  like walking on deep snow with a hard crust on top that you have to break through each step as you move forwards.


Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2153 on: February 09, 2018, 10:24:27 »
Found this article on arstechnica on the problems of the German F125 acceptance, but the comment from a previous member of the build team was of the most interest.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/02/german-navy-experiences-lcs-affect-in-spades-as-new-frigate-fails-sea-trials/

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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2154 on: February 09, 2018, 10:52:04 »
To quote one of our great protest song of the 60's:

"Oh! When will they ever learn, Oh! When will they ever learn"


And us too, unfortunately.

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2155 on: February 09, 2018, 10:55:23 »
Quote
"German military procurement is “one hell of a complete disaster. It will take years to sort this problem out.”

Looks like their military procurement "people" went to the same Academe as the Canadians. Same as their Systems and our Phoenix people. ;D

Quote
..... the comment from a previous member of the build team was of the most interest.
Sounds like the Germans and Canadians both have the same cunning plan.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACnqI1l4I9s&feature=youtu.be


Wonder if we could sell the Germans CH-148 Cyclones?

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Offline Loachman

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2156 on: February 09, 2018, 14:50:13 »
I don't follow this thread, but stumbled across the article below earlier today and thought that it might be of interest.

Davie et Irving: traitement à deux vitesses à Ottawa

Publié le 09 février 2018 à 06h57 | Mis à jour à 06h57

www.lapresse.ca/affaires/economie/transports/201802/09/01-5153208-davie-et-irving-traitement-a-deux-vitesses-a-ottawa.php

Via Google Translate:

The Davie and Irving shipyards do not seem to be entitled to the same treatment when they send an invitation to the Minister responsible for federal contracts. A deputy minister warned Minister Carla Qualtrough not to visit the Lévis shipyard last fall but "recommended" her to go to the Halifax shipyard, internal notes consulted by La Presse reveal.

These briefing documents, obtained under the Access to Information Act, were prepared shortly after the appointment of Ms. Qualtrough as Minister of Public Services and Procurement. Deputy Minister Marie Lemay sets out guidelines on the response to be provided following separate invitations by Davie and Irving at the end of last summer.

These two companies have been competing for years in the hope of winning maritime contracts with the Government of Canada. Irving has raised more than $ 60 billion in contracts, while Davie has been excluded from almost the entire federal procurement process.

SENTIMENT OF EXCLUSION

The Davie shipyard, which has experienced many financial difficulties and shareholder changes in recent decades, found itself in the middle of a political storm last fall. The company was expecting a contract from the Canadian Navy to build a second supply vessel, after delivering a first one - the Asterix - last December. Ottawa did not finally order a second boat.

In the absence of contracts, Davie has laid off 800 of his 1,200 workers in recent months, provoking an outcry in the Quebec City area. Several politicians - including Prime Minister Philippe Couillard - have denounced systematic discrimination against Davie, while Irving and Vancouver's Seaspan have garnered the bulk of federal contracts in recent years.

"SYSTEMATIC OBSTRUCTION"

The briefing notes obtained by La Presse follow the same logic, says a well-informed source of the naval industry, who requested anonymity for fear of reprisals from the federal government.

"This deputy minister's recommendation is just another proof of the systematic obstruction of federal public servants with the Quebec shipyard, which is still the largest in the country."

In Davie's internal documents, the deputy minister recommends that Carla Qualtrough agree to meet with the big boss Alex Vicefield, but suggests that she refuse to attend the inauguration of the Asterix, since the place and the date had not yet been fixed at that time.

On the Irving file, the deputy minister advises to have both a meeting with the big boss, James Irving, and a site visit.

"The reasoning is that it would be beneficial to know the extent of your portfolio and continue to encourage a strategic relationship with Irving." - Deputy Minister Marie Lemay

The letter written on behalf of the Minister indicates that she will be pleased to visit the Halifax shipyard "as soon as [her] schedule allows [her] time". Ms. Qualtrough went to Irving's facilities on December 19 at a formal ceremony.

TWENTY VISITS

According to a rough calculation, Trudeau government ministers visited the Irving and Seaspan shipyards about 20 times in the last two years. Davie received two visits from Jean-Yves Duclos, Minister of Families, Children and Social Development, during the same period.

In the face of growing pressure in the Quebec City area, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced last month the launch of negotiations between Ottawa and Davie for the leasing of four icebreakers. This contract, if it materializes, could allow about 300 workers to be recalled for a period of two years.

"We are proud that Chantier Davie Canada has been selected by the Trudeau government to deliver four icebreakers to the Canadian Coast Guard," spokesman Frédérik Boisvert said yesterday.

"COMPETITIVE PROCESS"

In an email to La Presse, a spokesperson for Public Services and Procurement Canada noted that the contracts at Irving and Seaspan were awarded "as a result of an open, fair and transparent competitive process." She recalls that Davie "has the right to bid on small vessel construction projects, as well as ship repair, refit and maintenance".

This spokesperson added that Minister Qualtrough refused to visit the Davie shipyard on the occasion of the inauguration of Asterix "because the location of the launch had not yet been determined."

Contracts awarded to Irving and Seaspan shipyards under the National Shipbuilding Strategy total more than $75 billion. Davie, who has been excluded from this program, has received approximately $650 million in federal contracts in recent years.

In Carla Qualtrough's office, a spokeswoman pointed out that the minister and her staff "have met with the Davie, Seaspan and Irving shipyard management and unions on a number of occasions since the Minister's appointment."

"Our Government recognizes the excellent work done by Davie employees, and we have begun discussions with shipyard leaders on options to meet the Canadian Coast Guard's need for interim icebreakers," he said. "Given that Davie is currently in discussion with our government, we will explore the possibility of a visit when the discussions are over."

- With William Leclerc, La Presse

Offline MTShaw

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2157 on: February 09, 2018, 15:00:06 »
I don't follow this thread, but stumbled across the article below earlier today and thought that it might be of interest.

Davie et Irving: traitement à deux vitesses à Ottawa

Publié le 09 février 2018 à 06h57 | Mis à jour à 06h57

www.lapresse.ca/affaires/economie/transports/201802/09/01-5153208-davie-et-irving-traitement-a-deux-vitesses-a-ottawa.php

Via Google Translate:

The Davie and Irving shipyards do not seem to be entitled to the same treatment when they send an invitation to the Minister responsible for federal contracts. A deputy minister warned Minister Carla Qualtrough not to visit the Lévis shipyard last fall but "recommended" her to go to the Halifax shipyard, internal notes consulted by La Presse reveal.

These briefing documents, obtained under the Access to Information Act, were prepared shortly after the appointment of Ms. Qualtrough as Minister of Public Services and Procurement. Deputy Minister Marie Lemay sets out guidelines on the response to be provided following separate invitations by Davie and Irving at the end of last summer.

These two companies have been competing for years in the hope of winning maritime contracts with the Government of Canada. Irving has raised more than $ 60 billion in contracts, while Davie has been excluded from almost the entire federal procurement process.

SENTIMENT OF EXCLUSION

The Davie shipyard, which has experienced many financial difficulties and shareholder changes in recent decades, found itself in the middle of a political storm last fall. The company was expecting a contract from the Canadian Navy to build a second supply vessel, after delivering a first one - the Asterix - last December. Ottawa did not finally order a second boat.

In the absence of contracts, Davie has laid off 800 of his 1,200 workers in recent months, provoking an outcry in the Quebec City area. Several politicians - including Prime Minister Philippe Couillard - have denounced systematic discrimination against Davie, while Irving and Vancouver's Seaspan have garnered the bulk of federal contracts in recent years.

"SYSTEMATIC OBSTRUCTION"

The briefing notes obtained by La Presse follow the same logic, says a well-informed source of the naval industry, who requested anonymity for fear of reprisals from the federal government.

"This deputy minister's recommendation is just another proof of the systematic obstruction of federal public servants with the Quebec shipyard, which is still the largest in the country."

In Davie's internal documents, the deputy minister recommends that Carla Qualtrough agree to meet with the big boss Alex Vicefield, but suggests that she refuse to attend the inauguration of the Asterix, since the place and the date had not yet been fixed at that time.

On the Irving file, the deputy minister advises to have both a meeting with the big boss, James Irving, and a site visit.

"The reasoning is that it would be beneficial to know the extent of your portfolio and continue to encourage a strategic relationship with Irving." - Deputy Minister Marie Lemay

The letter written on behalf of the Minister indicates that she will be pleased to visit the Halifax shipyard "as soon as [her] schedule allows [her] time". Ms. Qualtrough went to Irving's facilities on December 19 at a formal ceremony.

TWENTY VISITS

According to a rough calculation, Trudeau government ministers visited the Irving and Seaspan shipyards about 20 times in the last two years. Davie received two visits from Jean-Yves Duclos, Minister of Families, Children and Social Development, during the same period.

In the face of growing pressure in the Quebec City area, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced last month the launch of negotiations between Ottawa and Davie for the leasing of four icebreakers. This contract, if it materializes, could allow about 300 workers to be recalled for a period of two years.

"We are proud that Chantier Davie Canada has been selected by the Trudeau government to deliver four icebreakers to the Canadian Coast Guard," spokesman Frédérik Boisvert said yesterday.

"COMPETITIVE PROCESS"

In an email to La Presse, a spokesperson for Public Services and Procurement Canada noted that the contracts at Irving and Seaspan were awarded "as a result of an open, fair and transparent competitive process." She recalls that Davie "has the right to bid on small vessel construction projects, as well as ship repair, refit and maintenance".

This spokesperson added that Minister Qualtrough refused to visit the Davie shipyard on the occasion of the inauguration of Asterix "because the location of the launch had not yet been determined."

Contracts awarded to Irving and Seaspan shipyards under the National Shipbuilding Strategy total more than $75 billion. Davie, who has been excluded from this program, has received approximately $650 million in federal contracts in recent years.

In Carla Qualtrough's office, a spokeswoman pointed out that the minister and her staff "have met with the Davie, Seaspan and Irving shipyard management and unions on a number of occasions since the Minister's appointment."

"Our Government recognizes the excellent work done by Davie employees, and we have begun discussions with shipyard leaders on options to meet the Canadian Coast Guard's need for interim icebreakers," he said. "Given that Davie is currently in discussion with our government, we will explore the possibility of a visit when the discussions are over."

- With William Leclerc, La Presse

Davie are the worse of the worst sore losers.

Offline Underway

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2158 on: February 09, 2018, 15:05:26 »
Wonder if we could sell the Germans CH-148 Cyclones?

Oddly enough, the Germans were (are?) seriously considering the Cyclone.  Odds are we will have proven the airframe and systems by the time they are looking for a replacement for the Sea King.  The convergences of Canadian/German procurement is creepy coincidental in many ways.  Now if we could pick up some Puma IFV's...

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2159 on: February 09, 2018, 15:07:59 »
I spoke to a number of German Officers, recently. It was spooky how closely events in their military mirrored CF misfortunes.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2160 on: February 09, 2018, 16:14:09 »
Davie are the worse of the worst sore losers.

Which makes them better than Irving, which is the worse of the worst sore winner. After all, It's Irving who tried to use its influence with the Liberal party in order to have the new government cancel a contract already negotiated and agreed to by the past government, just so they could snatch it up themselves after having already 40B$ worth of contract in their pocket.

Seriously, MTS? There is nothing, underline nothing, in that article from Davie, other than saying they are happy to have gotten the interim ice breaker contracts. The article is from a business reporter at La Presse - the MONTREAL newspaper, which couldn't care less if a business in Quebec City lays off 800 employees, and is based on information from Ottawa obtained on an access to information request and on discussion with Ottawa based civil servants known to this reporter.

Nothing to do with Davie here.

And for the factual information of the people hanging around here, when the senior Federal civil servant states that Davie was not selected "as a result of an open, fair and transparent competitive process.", that spokesperson is full of it.

When the selection of shipyards for the NSPS was being made, Davie was in receivership and could not get itself considered, until the last minute, because it was bought and brought out of bankruptcy a few weeks before the closing of the process. Davie put together a last minute bid to get selected as the yard for the non-combat vessels (the one Seaspan got). However, that bid was rejected by the government without further consideration because one of the "requirement" was to have a collective agreement in place and in Davie's case because of the bankruptcy, the agreement had expired and, obviously, the new owners hadn't had time to sit down with the union and negotiate a new one. So to say that Davie had a fair and competitive shot at this work is simple bullsh^^t. Ottawa didn't even look at the actual Davie bid. (BTW, about having an agreement in place at the time of selecting the yard as opposed to when you do the work: How's that working out for Irving?)

Now, in another thread relating to the Coast Guard, we have just learned that the Cygnus - on of four East coast fisheries patrol vessel is limping back to port having sprung a leak. She is 37 years old. Her older sister the Cape Roger is 41 years old and has already suffered flooding while alongside. This leaves the two "youngsters" of the gang, Leonard Cowley, 34 and Grenfeld 31. These are to be replaced, under the NSPS, by Seaspan after they complete the next three Ofshore science vessels, the two JSS and the Arctic Icebreaker. We are talking a start date at least 10 years from now, by which time the "Atlantic Four" will be between 41 and 51 years old. These are the ships and people watching our fisheries and keeping foreign fishermen in line off our East coast!

Meanwhile, the "interim" icebreakers are there to stop the current gap until the new river icebreakers (class 3-4) come on line. When? We don't know as no contract for their replacement are even contemplated at this time in the NSPS. So they would be at the end of the current Seaspan  pile - thus not even begun for the next 15years. These icebreakers are between 31 (the Larsen) and 40  (Amundsen and Radisson) years old as we speak, they will be at least between 45 an 54 by the time they are replaced if things stand as they are.

I, for one, think that if you are going to build new icebreakers, they should come from a single yard, as it is specialized work - so better to concentrate in one place.

This said, can anyone tell me why Canada doesn't simply negotiate with Davie for the immediate acquisition of a satisfactory design for a Coast Guard offshore patrol vessel and then give Davie the contract to build five of them, maybe six, right now. In return, you give Seaspan a contract to build three or four river icebreakers right after the Diefenbaker.

The NSPS may have been a good idea when it was envisaged, but it took too much time to execute and right now, the Coast Guard is in dire straight, even a lot more than the Navy.

Offline Loachman

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2161 on: February 09, 2018, 16:36:58 »
Davie are the worse of the worst sore losers.

Please - there is no need to reproduce the whole article in a response.

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2162 on: February 09, 2018, 16:41:35 »
Wonder if we could sell the Germans CH-148 Cyclones?

We could if we built them, but we don't.

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2163 on: February 09, 2018, 17:43:37 »
Nothing to do with Davie here.

And for the factual information of the people hanging around here, when the senior Federal civil servant states that Davie was not selected "as a result of an open, fair and transparent competitive process.", that spokesperson is full of it.

When the selection of shipyards for the NSPS was being made, Davie was in receivership and could not get itself considered, until the last minute, because it was bought and brought out of bankruptcy a few weeks before the closing of the process. Davie put together a last minute bid to get selected as the yard for the non-combat vessels (the one Seaspan got). However, that bid was rejected by the government without further consideration because one of the "requirement" was to have a collective agreement in place and in Davie's case because of the bankruptcy, the agreement had expired and, obviously, the new owners hadn't had time to sit down with the union and negotiate a new one. So to say that Davie had a fair and competitive shot at this work is simple bullsh^^t. Ottawa didn't even look at the actual Davie bid. (BTW, about having an agreement in place at the time of selecting the yard as opposed to when you do the work: How's that working out for Irving?)

The Davie bid was fully reviewed and scored; the yards were selected based on that, and VSY had a better proposal for the NC package. Not sure where you heard otherwise, but it's simply not true.

Not being bankrupt is a pretty reasonable requirement,and is a standard requirement that is part of pretty much every single GoC contract to provide certain financial guarantees. You can't seriously criticize anyone for that; if it wasn't considered then you would probably also be up in arms about 'pandering to Quebec' and politics interfering with procurement process. If they lost points for not meeting something that was very clearly laid out in the evaluation scoring guide (which they had as part of the RFP) then it's really no one's fault but the bid team, but c'mon.  Would you have someone in chapter 11 build your house?

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2164 on: February 09, 2018, 17:45:17 »
Spot on! My error.
Never Congratulate Yourself In Victory, Nor Blame Your Horses In Defeat - Old Cossack Expression

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2165 on: February 09, 2018, 17:58:28 »
3 points, Navy_Pete:

1) Your reference to "Chapter eleven" is like a reference to Second Amendment rights. It's a US thing that has absolutely nothing to do with Canada.

2) I didn't say they were rejected because they were in bankruptcy: They were out of it by that time. I said it was because they didn't have a Collective Agreement in place with their Union at the time.

3) I hold my info from a good friend of mine: The lawyer in charge of the file for the then owners of Davie. Were is yours from?

Offline MTShaw

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2166 on: February 09, 2018, 18:35:35 »
Which makes them better than Irving, which is the worse of the worst sore winner. After all, It's Irving who tried to use its influence with the Liberal party in order to have the new government cancel a contract already negotiated and agreed to by the past government, just so they could snatch it up themselves after having already 40B$ worth of contract in their pocket.

Seriously, MTS? There is nothing, underline nothing, in that article from Davie, other than saying they are happy to have gotten the interim ice breaker contracts. The article is from a business reporter at La Presse - the MONTREAL newspaper, which couldn't care less if a business in Quebec City lays off 800 employees, and is based on information from Ottawa obtained on an access to information request and on discussion with Ottawa based civil servants known to this reporter.

Nothing to do with Davie here.

And for the factual information of the people hanging around here, when the senior Federal civil servant states that Davie was not selected "as a result of an open, fair and transparent competitive process.", that spokesperson is full of it.

When the selection of shipyards for the NSPS was being made, Davie was in receivership and could not get itself considered, until the last minute, because it was bought and brought out of bankruptcy a few weeks before the closing of the process. Davie put together a last minute bid to get selected as the yard for the non-combat vessels (the one Seaspan got). However, that bid was rejected by the government without further consideration because one of the "requirement" was to have a collective agreement in place and in Davie's case because of the bankruptcy, the agreement had expired and, obviously, the new owners hadn't had time to sit down with the union and negotiate a new one. So to say that Davie had a fair and competitive shot at this work is simple bullsh^^t. Ottawa didn't even look at the actual Davie bid. (BTW, about having an agreement in place at the time of selecting the yard as opposed to when you do the work: How's that working out for Irving?)

Now, in another thread relating to the Coast Guard, we have just learned that the Cygnus - on of four East coast fisheries patrol vessel is limping back to port having sprung a leak. She is 37 years old. Her older sister the Cape Roger is 41 years old and has already suffered flooding while alongside. This leaves the two "youngsters" of the gang, Leonard Cowley, 34 and Grenfeld 31. These are to be replaced, under the NSPS, by Seaspan after they complete the next three Ofshore science vessels, the two JSS and the Arctic Icebreaker. We are talking a start date at least 10 years from now, by which time the "Atlantic Four" will be between 41 and 51 years old. These are the ships and people watching our fisheries and keeping foreign fishermen in line off our East coast!

Meanwhile, the "interim" icebreakers are there to stop the current gap until the new river icebreakers (class 3-4) come on line. When? We don't know as no contract for their replacement are even contemplated at this time in the NSPS. So they would be at the end of the current Seaspan  pile - thus not even begun for the next 15years. These icebreakers are between 31 (the Larsen) and 40  (Amundsen and Radisson) years old as we speak, they will be at least between 45 an 54 by the time they are replaced if things stand as they are.

I, for one, think that if you are going to build new icebreakers, they should come from a single yard, as it is specialized work - so better to concentrate in one place.

This said, can anyone tell me why Canada doesn't simply negotiate with Davie for the immediate acquisition of a satisfactory design for a Coast Guard offshore patrol vessel and then give Davie the contract to build five of them, maybe six, right now. In return, you give Seaspan a contract to build three or four river icebreakers right after the Diefenbaker.

The NSPS may have been a good idea when it was envisaged, but it took too much time to execute and right now, the Coast Guard is in dire straight, even a lot more than the Navy.

I've had a number of strokes. My brain works fine apart from communication, so bare with me.

But that and fatigue are making a proper reply to your appreciated response impossible.

In short, your right to a point. Quebec is trying to take Seaspan's work. Link to article removed in accordance with site rules.

No, I'm not saying your wrong. In short
  • I'd love in for Davie to become Canada's Coast Guard yard.  :D
  • Then Seaspan gets to build 3 JSS and future work minor ships like OPV or Corvette
  • Irving gets what it already has.

That's the best you get from me today.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 20:11:45 by garb811 »

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2167 on: February 09, 2018, 19:10:02 »
3 points, Navy_Pete:

1) Your reference to "Chapter eleven" is like a reference to Second Amendment rights. It's a US thing that has absolutely nothing to do with Canada.

2) I didn't say they were rejected because they were in bankruptcy: They were out of it by that time. I said it was because they didn't have a Collective Agreement in place with their Union at the time.

3) I hold my info from a good friend of mine: The lawyer in charge of the file for the then owners of Davie. Were is yours from?

1) Chapter eleven is like Kleenex; it's widely understood as being in bankruptcy protection, but yes, understand it's an American law

2)Not true, they lost because they came 3rd, with only two spots on the podium.

3)By reading all three bids, the scoring criteria, the results and the recommended outcome based on the scores (ie Irving gets combat, VSY gets non combat)

The process went massively out of it's way to be free of interference, free from politics, and absolutely fair that any suggestion otherwise is pretty ridiculous. I had nothing to do with the RFP at the time, but it really was a massive amount of time and resources spent to make sure that the results could not be challenged under the guise of it not being fair, and the fact that the Davie bid was even considered was them bending over backwards to avoid challenges after the fact. 

Responding to RFPs is a big investment of time and resources; the NSS is a thirty plus year program where the government partnered with shipyards to rebuild an entire industry as a strategic investment. Being insolvent and not having a collective agreement are both massive risks and should absolutely be considered when we are talking about the Government spending BILLIONS of taxpayers money. Putting together a hurried bid that doesn't meet all the criteria will result in a low score.

They did a good job on Asterix, and their ad campaigns are pretty funny, but that was built on the fly, exempt from all kinds of rules that the two NSS shipyards have to follow (ie build in Canada, IRBs, etc) and doesn't require anywhere near the abilities needed to actually build a ship from scratch.  Really encouraging that they can get there, and they did a lot of good things, but they would need a lot more things than just a graving dock to start efficiently building ships at the kind of pace they would need to be commercially competitive, which would require modernization of the facilities and a bunch more people.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2168 on: February 09, 2018, 19:48:18 »
Seen, N.P.

However: Again, I did not say that there was interference, political or other, in the process. But there are different degrees of what constitutes fairness.

For instance, in the current phase of selecting a design for the CSC, they have changed the rules (not to mention made multiple extensions) so that they can review bids, and then tell various bidders if there are non conformities to give them a chance of correcting same. That maybe good for the government side of things, but a bidder that is in full conformity from the start may find that "unfair".

In reverse here, knowing that the various bidders (there were more than the two winners and davie) had had 9 months to put their bid together, while Davie had three weeks, couldn't they have either given them an extension to negotiate a Collective Agreement (after all, the damn process was already 2 years behind by then), or simply told them that any consideration - setting that aside - would require them to enter into one within a given amount of time after?

I do take exception, however, with your comment on Davie's need for modernization and more than just a graving dock. First of all, the other two yards were, at the time in the same or even worse degrees of backwardness where facilities are concerned. They only improved and modernized their facilities as a result of getting selected for the NSPS. Second of all, Davie has modernized and rebuilt and improved its various shops and they are just as modern as need be already - their pipe shop is actually considered a model. Third, they have much more than only  graveyard, they in fact have five separate large slips that can be used and shops for module assembly. You talk of "pace" for commercial competitiveness: They could build the CSC's six at time and be done in little more than two batches if the government wished. Come and see me when Irving can match that pace. Finally, building ships from scratch: Since the new ownership took over and excluding Asterix, they have built five ships from scratch in the 3500 to 4500 tons displacement range, including three extremely complex deep sea construction ships. Who else has done that in Canada in the last 5 years.

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2169 on: February 09, 2018, 21:41:15 »
Yes, they modernized the yards to meet the standard that was mandated in the NSS; Davie would have done the same as it was part of their proposal.  Upgrading the shipyards is a mandatory contract requirement.

Davie still has some upgrades required to meet that standard.

They've done a lot, but I think you are underestimating the complexity and work required to build CSC; even the best warship builders in the world aren't able to build anything at that pace. From cutting steel to launch one ship takes a few years until launch, but they'll have three or four ships in different phases of production at a time.

ISI currently has three AOPs under construction, and VSY has three OFSVs on the go (with two projects in the design phase). It takes a long time to get an industry started but it's actually starting to to roll on at a decent pace, and you have to remember there was a couple of years for each yard to basically tear it all down and rebuild the infrastructure plus get a team put together. Weirdly enough a thirty year program to build a strategic asset takes some time. 

Online MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2170 on: February 09, 2018, 22:08:49 »
Not a very bright way to make terribly expensive acquisitions--all about politics (all parties) not needs of RCN or CCG.  Our federal governments just not serious about core responsibilities.

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Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2171 on: February 10, 2018, 07:51:22 »
Not a very bright way to make terribly expensive acquisitions--all about politics (all parties) not needs of RCN or CCG.  Our federal governments just not serious about core responsibilities.
What do you suggest?  Only buy off the shelf from overseas?  That might be a lot quicker.  But are Canadian governments even interested in providing badly needed ships for the navy and coast guard at an adequate rate?  The National Ship Building Strategy needs to be drastically changed to include Davie.  There appears to be no way Seaspan can supply all those ships for the coast guard and navy in a timely manner.

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2172 on: February 10, 2018, 09:04:52 »
The National Ship Building Strategy needs to be drastically changed to include Davie.

No it doesn't.  There are plenty of other options and other builders that can do such work if required. Why Davie and not Welland (as a random example)?  They did good work on previous RCN ships over the years and it could be argued you'll get more votes out of the Liberal/PC balanced Niagara region with that sort of pork barrelling then in Quebec who constantly are "what have you done for me lately" with their voting.  Not not to mention Niagara needs the jobs a hell of a lot more than Quebec City does.

Fixating on Davie is dangerous.  If you want to add a yard for work then hold a competition, like always.  If Davie is the best bidder then they get the work.  I would be willing to bet that given a competition, the Asterix project would have cost less for taxpayers, Welland could have done that conversion work easily as well and that competition would have forced the price down.

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2173 on: February 10, 2018, 09:23:46 »
Actually, Welland didn't do so great on ATH's last refit.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2174 on: February 10, 2018, 09:57:54 »
You do realize, Underway, that  "Welland" is part of Heddle Marine.

They screwed up the ATH at Welland, and I think the Coast Guard was none too please with how the Amundsen came out of refit either. Then at the Hamilton yard, they screwed up the Hudson - badly.

Out of all their locations, the last ship they build was a small lake/river ferry in 1992. They, in fact did not even put in for the NSPS: They merely indicated they were hoping to get sub-contract work from it (fat chance with Irving winning - Whereas Davie, from the start has been advocating part build work let to subcontractors).  http://www.wellandtribune.ca/2011/07/22/boon-to-local-economy-if-shipbuilding-bid-wins-2

And also, there was competition for the Asterix. After Davie came out with its proposed plan for an interim AOR, the government asked other selected companies to propose something similar. Both Seaspan and Irving made proposals, but Davie's was the one selected. You may recall that the letter from Irving that started the whole Admiral Norman debacle was one where Irving was asking the Trudeau government to reconsider their proposal, claiming it had been unfairly considered. What was different with the Asterix deal was not that there was no competition, it was that to go faster they modified the rules to give the final contract by single source process after getting all the various proposals for review edited to add: and to foil the a**holes civil servants who refused to let the government even consider ANY interim ship by fear of their cherished NSPS becoming unraveled - you may be sure these are the same ones that have now made sure no second iAOR will ever see the light of day).
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 10:35:34 by Oldgateboatdriver »