Author Topic: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy  (Read 756653 times)

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Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2525 on: January 17, 2019, 11:50:55 »
As for who should build them, there's always the offshore option. Seems like Norway and Finland can do a good job so there are options. As for Irving's capacity, it appears that a major section of land directly across from the Halifax Dockyard that is currently DND property with lots of water frontage is coming on the market fairly soon. Word has Irving eying it to build maintenance facilities to increase their capacity.

Wait a minute, if you're suggesting that we have our needed Coast Guard ships to be built offshore, what was the point of us spending hundreds of millions on subsidizing Seaspan so they could build some Coast Guard ships?  Why bother having some built here at bloated prices and then have others built overseas?  Why not have them all built here?

Didn't the French/Italians propose the same thing with the CSC?  Have the first batch of 3 be built in Europe and then have the last 12 built here - in a shorter timeline and at a fixed cost? And we turned them down flat.

The fact is that 50% of our total current shipbuilding capacity is not being utilized and the remaining 50% is overwhelmed with what is has and has 0 ability to address what still needs to be built over the next 20yrs. 

As for the statement as to Davie 'whining' - its the prudent thing for them to do - as any business person (from the small corner store shop owner to Bombardier), marketing to the masses their abilities and willingness to take on new business.

I really hoping that with Scott Brison gone that this anti-Davie nonsense is flushed down the toilet and saner heads are given the floor.

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2526 on: January 17, 2019, 12:00:17 »
Wait a minute, if you're suggesting that we have our needed Coast Guard ships to be built offshore, what was the point of us spending hundreds of millions on subsidizing Seaspan so they could build some Coast Guard ships?  Why bother having some built here at bloated prices and then have others built overseas?  Why not have them all built here?

Didn't the French/Italians propose the same thing with the CSC?  Have the first batch of 3 be built in Europe and then have the last 12 built here - in a shorter timeline and at a fixed cost? And we turned them down flat.

The fact is that 50% of our total current shipbuilding capacity is not being utilized and the remaining 50% is overwhelmed with what is has and has 0 ability to address what still needs to be built over the next 20yrs. 

As for the statement as to Davie 'whining' - its the prudent thing for them to do - as any business person (from the small corner store shop owner to Bombardier), marketing to the masses their abilities and willingness to take on new business.

I really hoping that with Scott Brison gone that this anti-Davie nonsense is flushed down the toilet and saner heads are given the floor.

Didn't you just say Sea Span is at capacity and ships are over 30 yrs old? Since the government seems not want Davie to build anything else for them perhaps going offshore is the answer? To tell you the truth i'm not sure if Davie would be the answer for new builds, perhaps purchase some more ships built overseas and convert them, they seem good at that.
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Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2527 on: January 17, 2019, 12:30:28 »
Wait a minute, if you're suggesting that we have our needed Coast Guard ships to be built offshore
The coast guard ships will not be built offshore.  The purpose of the National Shipbuilding Strategy is to build all coast guard and naval surface vessels 1 000 tonnes displacement or larger in Canada and not Finland, Norway, or any other country.  It appears that Trudeau and the Liberals believe that Seaspan should build all of the coast guard ships.  I think this is a disastrous decision. 

What Trudeau and the Liberals should do is to revise the National Shipbuilding Strategy to include Davie.  What they should do is to have all the political parties, all the shipbuilders, all the interested government departments, the navy, and the coast guard get together to come to some sort of agreement on a national shipbuilding strategy that everyone can live with.  And there should be mandatory annual reviews to fine tune this strategy if needed.

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2528 on: January 17, 2019, 12:53:08 »
The coast guard ships will not be built offshore.  The purpose of the National Shipbuilding Strategy is to build all coast guard and naval surface vessels 1 000 tonnes displacement or larger in Canada and not Finland, Norway, or any other country.  It appears that Trudeau and the Liberals believe that Seaspan should build all of the coast guard ships.  I think this is a disastrous decision. 

What Trudeau and the Liberals should do is to revise the National Shipbuilding Strategy to include Davie.  What they should do is to have all the political parties, all the shipbuilders, all the interested government departments, the navy, and the coast guard get together to come to some sort of agreement on a national shipbuilding strategy that everyone can live with.  And there should be mandatory annual reviews to fine tune this strategy if needed.

I know they won't however the government did buy three used icebreakers from Europe through Federal Fleet.  Perhaps a case can be made to purchase additional lightly used boats and have Davie convert them. Isn't that what Davie was originally proposing.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

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Online Good2Golf

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2529 on: January 17, 2019, 13:22:31 »
...
What Trudeau and the Liberals should do is to revise the National Shipbuilding Strategy to include Davie.  What they should do is to have all the political parties, all the shipbuilders, all the interested government departments, the navy, and the coast guard get together to come to some sort of agreement on a national shipbuilding strategy that everyone can live with.  And there should be mandatory annual reviews to fine tune this strategy if needed.

Particularly since the Strategy is more than “a tenth of a century” old.   :nod:

Good governance best practices would include the kind of periodic reviews Uzlu notes above.

Regards
G2G

Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2530 on: January 18, 2019, 01:54:30 »
The main issue with the NSPS is that it is 20 years to late. Currently Seaspan has 3 and bit ships underway, with 3 more on the books to be built. That will keep them for another 6-8 years. The government could pick a design independent of any shipyard (I favour an updated 1100 class evolution) and they can parcel out 3 to davie and reserve the other 3 for whatever shipyard needs it. Both Davie and Seaspan have stepped up to the plate in my opinion, Irving is the spoiled child. Frankly I would love to give 3 1100 class to Davie, a Resolve conversion and completion of 2 Mistral class ships to be partly built in France with the rest in Davie.
Also by the time the CSC is running full bore, we need to replace the Kingstons. 

Offline Baz

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2531 on: January 18, 2019, 07:37:20 »
Living in Nova Scotia, I'm personally more tired of the whining coming out of Irving and it's union.

Even though maintenance of the frigates isn't part of the NSS, wasn't already contracted, and from all accounts Irving didn't have the capacity to have two in the yard at once as the schedule needs, they formed the "Ships Stay Here" campaign.  Some of the comments resulting from that on Facebook towards Quebec were disgusting, especially coming from an area as propped up by federal money as Halifax.

I'm also not sure why as a Nova Scotia taxpayer I have to shoulder the risk in the form of forgivable loans as opposed to Irving for their dockyard upgrade.

They say it's to avoid a production gap and the loss of skilled workers, yet they don't care if thaey take care of those same workers.  Don't need welders for a few weeks, lay them off.  And then act surprised that you have labour issues.  Not that the union is altruistic though.

But hey, the result is an order for a sixth AOPS, that it isn't even clear there is a requirement for, even though it seems (because nobody releases the figures) that Irving didn't contractually qualify for, and its unclear if the RCN can man (much like it's unclear the RCAF can man the "fighter gap" buy) to avoid the "production gap."

I guess if it works it isn't whining?

Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2532 on: January 18, 2019, 07:54:31 »
The main issue with the NSPS is that it is 20 years to late. Currently Seaspan has 3 and bit ships underway, with 3 more on the books to be built. That will keep them for another 6-8 years. The government could pick a design independent of any shipyard (I favour an updated 1100 class evolution) and they can parcel out 3 to davie and reserve the other 3 for whatever shipyard needs it. Both Davie and Seaspan have stepped up to the plate in my opinion, Irving is the spoiled child. Frankly I would love to give 3 1100 class to Davie, a Resolve conversion and completion of 2 Mistral class ships to be partly built in France with the rest in Davie.
Also by the time the CSC is running full bore, we need to replace the Kingstons.

Seaspan should have 4 ships on the books - the 2 JSS, the 1 Scientific ship (which is part of the NSPS but suddenly no one is talking about) and The Dief.  Thats a total of 4 ships and it will take them longer than 8 years to build those 4 ships, more like 10yrs.

And then don't forget about the small ships, the OPVS that were listed as part of the NSPS that Seaspan was supposed to build.  When taking that under consideration, Seaspan has 0 capacity left for 10-14yrs - fact.

Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2533 on: January 18, 2019, 08:01:19 »

Also by the time the CSC is running full bore, we need to replace the Kingstons.

Nice to see that someone else is thinking about these ships as well.  These need to be started to be thought about - what type of ship will we replace them with, the timeline to replace them and then, most importantly, who will have the excess capacity to build them.

The oldest of the Kingston (HMSC Kingston) will turn 25yrs old this summer....think about that....are we looking to keep them around for another 10yrs?  Great, that will make them 35yrs old. So, if we plan to start building new ones in 10yrs then we need to start planning what we will need, pick a design, hold the competition, do the review, agree to a contract and then start building them.  Given our track record over the last 18yrs and how we've yet to build and have accepted into the RCN not 1 ship in that time frame, I'm of the belief that we need to start moving NOW on the Kingston as those 10yrs to go by and nothing will be done.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 08:03:58 by Czech_pivo »

Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2534 on: January 18, 2019, 08:10:47 »
When taking that under consideration, Seaspan has 0 capacity left for 10-14yrs - fact.
Probably closer to twenty years.  Instead of Seaspan building ships for the navy and coast guard for forty years before starting again on another forty-year build cycle, Seaspan and Davie could each have twenty-year build cycles.

Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2535 on: January 18, 2019, 10:41:38 »
Seaspan should have 4 ships on the books - the 2 JSS, the 1 Scientific ship (which is part of the NSPS but suddenly no one is talking about) and The Dief.  Thats a total of 4 ships and it will take them longer than 8 years to build those 4 ships, more like 10yrs.

And then don't forget about the small ships, the OPVS that were listed as part of the NSPS that Seaspan was supposed to build.  When taking that under consideration, Seaspan has 0 capacity left for 10-14yrs - fact.

You note I said 3 and "bit" they have started one of the JSS, so technically that leaves them with 3 confirmed orders waiting for build. I think the problem is that the Science Vessel design has some major flaws in it, which is not surprising, a lot of Federal Government ships were top heavy designs, with to much stuff in to little hull. I am not exactly sure who is responsible for the design, the rumour I have heard is that the team tagged with turning the plans into a ship, started flagging potential flaws and now there is a finger pointing exercise going on.

Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2536 on: January 18, 2019, 13:54:01 »
You note I said 3 and "bit" they have started one of the JSS, so technically that leaves them with 3 confirmed orders waiting for build. I think the problem is that the Science Vessel design has some major flaws in it, which is not surprising, a lot of Federal Government ships were top heavy designs, with to much stuff in to little hull. I am not exactly sure who is responsible for the design, the rumour I have heard is that the team tagged with turning the plans into a ship, started flagging potential flaws and now there is a finger pointing exercise going on.

Add 10 meters to the length of the hull and move on...... :rofl:

Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2537 on: January 18, 2019, 13:56:44 »
You note I said 3 and "bit" they have started one of the JSS, so technically that leaves them with 3 confirmed orders waiting for build. I think the problem is that the Science Vessel design has some major flaws in it, which is not surprising, a lot of Federal Government ships were top heavy designs, with to much stuff in to little hull. I am not exactly sure who is responsible for the design, the rumour I have heard is that the team tagged with turning the plans into a ship, started flagging potential flaws and now there is a finger pointing exercise going on.

I also find it somewhat sad that we are a 3 Ocean country that is trying to build a single new Scientific Research ship that will be spread across all 3 Oceans.... :facepalm:

Online Chris Pook

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2538 on: January 18, 2019, 14:43:59 »
I also find it somewhat sad that we are a 3 Ocean country that is trying to build a single new Scientific Research ship that will be spread across all 3 Oceans.... :facepalm:

Montreal, Quebec, Toronto, Vancouver - Clear-cuts.   Surrounded by trees.  It is hard to see any further.
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Offline LoboCanada

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2539 on: January 18, 2019, 14:47:50 »
What happened with that supposed 'refresh'?

What do you hope to see thrown to Davie? Would be counter to the purpose of rebuilding an industry if you let 1 shipyard suffer for the sake of 2 busier ones.

I hope that at minimum they get an MCDV refit job pushed through, or perhaps more CCG work. Unlikely, but another Asterix but more modified towards HADR, with capability for sub-tender/rescue ship.

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2540 on: January 18, 2019, 17:04:10 »
What happened with that supposed 'refresh'?

What do you hope to see thrown to Davie? Would be counter to the purpose of rebuilding an industry if you let 1 shipyard suffer for the sake of 2 busier ones.

I hope that at minimum they get an MCDV refit job pushed through, or perhaps more CCG work. Unlikely, but another Asterix but more modified towards HADR, with capability for sub-tender/rescue ship.

I doubt if MCDV refits will be going through Davie anytime soon unless they bid on them like every other yard.
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2541 on: January 18, 2019, 20:08:55 »
Montreal, Quebec, Toronto, Vancouver - Clear-cuts.   Surrounded by trees.  It is hard to see any further.

Actually, Chris -having lived there for a long time - Quebec city knows it is a maritime city and the River is essential to it.

Personally, I still think the solution for, I'll say "Ocean Services Canada" instead of just the Coast Guard to be clearer, is a two yards solution: You need one yard that specializes in ice breakers and another one to then get on with building the other non-icebreakers vessels. And don't get me wrong, the "multi-task" vessels that can do some ice breaking ( such as the Martha L. Black, for instance) are NOT ice breakers in my book. BTW, my book also includes three, not just one, Arctic icebreaker in the Diefenbaker class.

Offline NavyShooter

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2542 on: January 18, 2019, 21:34:02 »

I doubt if MCDV refits will be going through Davie anytime soon unless they bid on them like every other yard.


We can only hope that Davie might do so...maybe they'll come back in nearly serviceable condition instead of needing tens of thousands of hours of additional maintenance time to reactivate them.


I wonder if we could leave the brass fittings and fire-hoses on a ship that would go to Davie, or if they'd get stolen and have the hose ends cut off to sell for the scrap value there as well?



Insert disclaimer statement here....

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Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2543 on: January 18, 2019, 22:35:29 »

We can only hope that Davie might do so...maybe they'll come back in nearly serviceable condition instead of needing tens of thousands of hours of additional maintenance time to reactivate them.


I wonder if we could leave the brass fittings and fire-hoses on a ship that would go to Davie, or if they'd get stolen and have the hose ends cut off to sell for the scrap value there as well?

Actually we have no problems with the MCDV's coming back from Shelbourne or St.John's. I don't know where you're getting tens of thousands of additional maintenance time. Refits for MCDV's are handled quite differently than the CPF's.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2544 on: January 18, 2019, 23:49:38 »
What happened with that supposed 'refresh'?

What do you hope to see thrown to Davie? Would be counter to the purpose of rebuilding an industry if you let 1 shipyard suffer for the sake of 2 busier ones.

I hope that at minimum they get an MCDV refit job pushed through, or perhaps more CCG work. Unlikely, but another Asterix but more modified towards HADR, with capability for sub-tender/rescue ship.

They will make a whole bunch of noise and promises up to the election and then "forget"

Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2545 on: January 25, 2019, 16:07:52 »
Quote
Pierre Drapeau, president of the association of suppliers to the shipyard, told Trudeau that work is urgently needed at Davie. He said less than 3 per cent of the contracts from Ottawa’s national shipbuilding strategy have gone to the Levis shipyard, which is across the river from Quebec City, and workers are losing their jobs.

Trudeau blamed the previous Conservative government of Stephen Harper for awarding ship-building contracts to Vancouver and Halifax while leaving out Quebec’s capital.

He said he understands the frustration, but Canada can’t be seen as a country that tears up previously signed contracts when a new government is elected.
https://ottawacitizen.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/trudeau-pressed-in-quebec-city-to-give-more-contracts-to-david-shipyard/wcm/5f4e088e-ebb7-4bc5-b667-8297a6b1dd3c

Offline FSTO

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2546 on: January 25, 2019, 17:51:30 »
https://ottawacitizen.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/trudeau-pressed-in-quebec-city-to-give-more-contracts-to-david-shipyard/wcm/5f4e088e-ebb7-4bc5-b667-8297a6b1dd3c

He said he understands the frustration, but Canada can't be seen as a country that tears up previously signed contracts when a new government is elected.

That's pretty rich coming from a Liberal. Anyone remember Chretien and "Zero Helicopters!"? What a load of codswallop!

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2547 on: January 25, 2019, 18:04:03 »
Blaming Harper is getting old.
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Offline CBH99

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2548 on: January 25, 2019, 19:25:20 »
I agree.  Any political party that has been in power for a few years needs to stop blaming the previous government, especially when it comes to issues that have arisen out of DECADES of "kicking the can down the road".  Just own it, and deal with it.


I know we've beaten this horse to death, so I won't go into it...but if we had some sort of committee on defense issues that wasn't affiliated with a single political party, who had members from all relevant parties in it's ranks, who could push projects through & retain support from the major political parties throughout elections, it would go a long way to ending the "the government before us is at fault" nonsense...

Oh wait...Standing Committee on National Defense...
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2549 on: January 30, 2019, 15:48:15 »
He said he understands the frustration, but Canada can't be seen as a country that tears up previously signed contracts when a new government is elected.

That's pretty rich coming from a Liberal. Anyone remember Chretien and "Zero Helicopters!"? What a load of codswallop!

Except, and that is a little understood aspect of the strategy, that the "strategy" does not oblige Canada to build ships at those yards, only to negotiate in good faith with them for certain ships - already specifically identified in the strategy - so as to provide these yards with steady work for about 20 years and thus guarantee them a basis from which to develop expertise they can monetize with other non-government work. If those "good-faith negotiations fail or don't produce a fair price, the Government is already free to shop somewhere else for a better price.

The non combat ships identified include more than the Dief, three OFSV currently building , science vessel and two AOR's. They include the 10 Coast Guard Offshore patrol vessels.

However, the replacement of the medium/river icebreakers (type 1200) of the Coast Guard and the multi-task type 1100, not to mention by then the type 1050 and the Tully - so basically 26 more vessels, need to start being replaced NOW!

That is more than enough work for three yards for the next 20 years and it can be done by quickly planning apportionment between Seaspan and Davie (even by assigning more vessels to Seaspan on that occasion) and bringing Davie in the Strategy under the same terms as the others for the other Coast Guard ships.