Author Topic: DND Civilians supervising CAF members [Merged]  (Read 12924 times)

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Offline Target Up

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Re: DND Civilians supervising CAF members [Merged]
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2019, 16:14:16 »
CFE school teachers in Lahr were given access to the BFOM, and we had a COs secretary who treated the RHQ troop like her personal labour pool, and woe to the young Cpl who said something about it...or so I heard.
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: DND Civilians supervising CAF members [Merged]
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2019, 16:33:19 »
Does that mean military members can be charged for insubordination if they're insubordinate to their civilian supervisor?

What do you mean by "insubordinate"?

The NDA uses "Insubordination" as a heading for a group of service offences that include 'Disobedience of lawful command', 'Striking or offering violence to a superior officer' and 'Insubordinate behaviour'.  The last one is usually what pers mean when they talk about someone being insubordinate.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-02/ch-103.page#cha-103-18
Quote
103.18 – INSUBORDINATE BEHAVIOUR

(1) Section 85 of the National Defence Act provides:

“85. Every person who uses threatening or insulting language to, or behaves with contempt toward, a superior officer is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to dismissal with disgrace from Her Majesty's service or to less punishment.”

Ostrozac was correct in his previous post that a service member could only be charged with one of the subordination offences if the breach was directed toward a "superior officer" as defined in the NDA, however the notes to that QR&O provide a more complete answer.  The QR&Os referencing the other two insubordination offences also have the same Note (A).

Quote
NOTES

(A) The expression “superior officer” is defined in section 2 of the National Defence Act to mean any officer or non-commissioned member who, in relation to any other officer or non-commissioned member, is by that Act, or by regulation or by custom of the service, authorized to give a lawful command to that other officer or non-commissioned member. Unless this relationship exists, the charge must be laid under section 129 of the National Defence Act (see article 103.60 – Conduct to the Prejudice of Good Order and Discipline).

. . .  (the additional notes are worth reading)

Just because a member's supervisor is a civilian doesn't remove him/her from either disciplinary or administrative jeopardy if the member's behaviour is contrary to what is expected.
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Offline Rawimage

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Re: DND Civilians supervising CAF members [Merged]
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2019, 22:17:19 »
That seems a bit high.  The office I just left had an AS 3 as an entry level position, with an AS 6 acting as the advisor to a DG (one star equivalent). Believe the L1 advisors were AS-7s (or equivalent for a different classification).  That was common across a number of different departments working together on a major project here in Ottawa.

At the end of the day, they are civilians, we're not, but if everyone follows the golden rule of 'don't be a knob to each other' it works out pretty easily.
Correct, i was civilian AS05 until May 18, and i had a Capt and a WO working for me and my immediate boss was a Maj in the DGCB world.  Wrote their PERs and went on unit boards to represent within the CMP World as well.   In NDHQ it’s very different than on any Base that”s for sure, in Halifax we had a civi running the show at the BOR but the senior officers didn’t want her to be an AS as they viewed that as being an Officer?? That was in early 2000s.

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: DND Civilians supervising CAF members [Merged]
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2019, 10:17:31 »
Correct, i was civilian AS05 until May 18, and i had a Capt and a WO working for me and my immediate boss was a Maj in the DGCB world.  Wrote their PERs and went on unit boards to represent within the CMP World as well.   In NDHQ it’s very different than on any Base that”s for sure, in Halifax we had a civi running the show at the BOR but the senior officers didn’t want her to be an AS as they viewed that as being an Officer?? That was in early 2000s.

Thanks for the info; pretty varied for sure. Have seen other departments were someone was doing the same work but classed as a CR (so significantly less pay).  Thought the union would be pushing for some consistency in classification and levels that matched up with the description in the collective agreement, but they were pretty much useless (except for collecting the dues).

Have spent most of my time in Ottawa reporting to civilians, so not really a big deal, but can be strange to be a lone CAF member amongst in a civilian shop.

Offline Pusser

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Re: DND Civilians supervising CAF members [Merged]
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2019, 14:16:27 »
I asked a legal officer about this once.  Essentially, it boils down to this:  a civilian cannot give a military member a lawful command.  However, the military chain of  command can order CAF personnel to follow the direction of their civilian "superiors."  This is essentially what happens.  Having said this, every military member has a military chain of command, but it may only kick in for disciplinary matters.  For example, I was the most senior military officer at one unit where a civilian was officially appointed as the CO (that was an anomaly in itself); however, for disciplinary purposes, I had the powers of a commanding officer over all military personnel, even though I was not the unit CO.

There is no direct correlation between PS classification and military rank.  If your organization places a civilian in a superior position, they are in a superior position.  Their PS classification or pay level are irrelevant.
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Offline stellarpanther

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Re: DND Civilians supervising CAF members [Merged]
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2019, 17:58:39 »
So the exact comment that was made to us was "even though she is a civilian, she holds the rank of Captain in the unit".  I don't think anyone really cares to argue it but I know a few of us would like to understand this stuff.  Any ref on this?

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Re: DND Civilians supervising CAF members [Merged]
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2019, 22:54:30 »
So the exact comment that was made to us was "even though she is a civilian, she holds the rank of Captain in the unit".  I don't think anyone really cares to argue it but I know a few of us would like to understand this stuff.  Any ref on this?

Does it matter?  Is it the hill you want to die on?

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Re: DND Civilians supervising CAF members [Merged]
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2019, 08:25:07 »
I don't think anyone really cares to argue it but I know a few of us would like to understand this stuff
Quote
Does it matter?  Is it the hill you want to die on?
Wow.  Having stated that it's not an arguing point, should a service member merely seeking to understand their military be such a personal affront?
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Offline PPCLI Guy

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Re: DND Civilians supervising CAF members [Merged]
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2019, 08:39:00 »
So the exact comment that was made to us was "even though she is a civilian, she holds the rank of Captain in the unit".  I don't think anyone really cares to argue it but I know a few of us would like to understand this stuff.  Any ref on this?

Perhaps what was meant was "status" vice "rank".  In a military unit where everyone automatically knows where they are on the pecking order, indicating to all that someone is at a specific spot in that order just makes good sense to me.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2019, 09:07:17 by PPCLI Guy »
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: DND Civilians supervising CAF members [Merged]
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2019, 08:59:32 »
So the exact comment that was made to us was "even though she is a civilian, she holds the rank of Captain in the unit".  I don't think anyone really cares to argue it but I know a few of us would like to understand this stuff.  Any ref on this?

I think the person making the comment could have picked more appropriate wording.  I worked as a Branch 2 I/C, my branch head was a (retired Officer) civilian hired under an ASD contract (Alternative Services Delivery).  We understood each other perfectly; he knew he couldn't give me a 'lawful command', and I knew the HQ Adjt and COS certainly could.   ;D

I took my task list and priorities from him and interacted like I would have if he'd of been a Captain (the rank the position called for).  Sometimes 'common sense' is a good ref to go by.

Civilians can obviously never 'hold rank' etc, but they can have levels of responsibility and authority equivalent to X rank in the CAF.   :2c:
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Offline standingdown

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Re: DND Civilians supervising CAF members [Merged]
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2019, 11:47:51 »
I've seen at least one DG who had a bio that stated he was "equivalent to MGen rank". I feel that was a bit of a stretch...

At the end of the day, if you are being supervised by a civilian, you aren't exactly at the pointy end (maybe a few exceptions to that) and it really doesn't matter. With that said, I commend anyone that tries to learn about the system. It will only serve to better a member as they move up, or out.


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Re: DND Civilians supervising CAF members [Merged]
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2019, 11:04:17 »
Here's a new one I heard from out west.  In the terms of reference for a civilian employee it includes 'supervision of orderly room staff'.  I thought it was odd that a civilian would be put in charge of an orderly room of CF members.  I seemed to recall seeing a CFAO on the matter; that DND civilian employees weren't to be place in charge of CF members, but can't seem to find it now.  I would think that this invites having issues with command authority and discipline.

The legal discussion is a separate one from the day-to-day workplace reality discussion. With regards to matters inside the Orderly Room, the civilian supervisor will indeed be in charge. It's his or her OR, and decisions impacting the operation of that OR will be at that leader's discretion. Yes I said leader. As well, a certain degree of control over the uniformed Member's development and conduct and assessment is going to be exercised, in conjunction with whatever military C2 is in the picture.  It's not radically different than a purely uniformed C2. Your MCpl doesn't decide when you get loaded on a career course or get exempted from PT for a couple weeks because your workload is too heavy. They can recommend for or against, but a lot of players are involved in the decision. Same applies when your Section Commander-equivalent is a civilian.

Although the civilian may be in charge for day to day operations, the uniformed Member in this scenario will also be responsive to whomever is the closest uniformed supervisor, perhaps the CC or a Pl WO or maybe the AO or the Adjt, depending on the organization. When you get to Ottawa it could even be someone outside your Org Chart, since you could have 2 or 3 or 4 civilians directly above you in your C2. But there will be uniformed staff - Sr NCO and Officer - formally designated as being responsible for purely military matters for uniformed Members with civilian bosses. There are dozens and dozens of different setups across the country. In a military Unit with a uniformed CO and a uniformed RSM etc, having a civilian supervisor or five dribbled into the structure is routine and very easily managed. Think Service Battalions, which can even have Officer-status civilians, an AS-02 Procurement Officer, for example. There is no shortage of uniformed C2 available there to make the troop's (or the civilian's) day entertaining.

Bottom line, the civilian boss has known arcs of fire within which he is clearly the boss, and can legitimately order the uniformed Member to undertake the activities outlined in the job descriptions. "Corporal, you are on front counter duty next week" is a legitimate order from the civilian boss. "Corporal, you are exempt battalion PT for the next month while we work end-year" is something the civilian supervisor would have to coordinate with the military C2 above him.