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Veteran`s son

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Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« on: July 14, 2003, 22:15:00 »
Hello

When post-nominal letters and regiment abbreviations are listed after someone‘s name, which one comes first?

For example, my Dad earned the Canadian Forces Decoration and served with the Royal Canadian Engineers.

Would the abbreviations be CD, RCE or would they be reversed? Also, does there have to be  periods between the C and D?

Again, your replies would be appreciated!

Offline Spr.Earl

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2003, 22:43:00 »
Vet‘s Son,
All award‘s come first like in your father‘s case
it would be Rank,Name,C.D. R.C.E.

The C.D. is conciderd as an award like the V.C. and all other award‘s.

C.D.,(twelve year‘s of undetected crime LOL)
is a good conduct medal.

If your father had won the V.C. it would be,
Rank,name ,V.C.,C.D.,R.C.E.
Award‘s go by rank,V.C. being the highest.

Like mine is Spr.Earl,C.D.,C.M.E.
(Canadian Military Engineers)

But campaign medal‘s are not put after your name.

Hope‘s this help‘s.

Can anyone post the Canadian Medal list to help
Vet‘s Son?
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Offline portcullisguy

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2003, 12:24:00 »
According to the Dept of Canadian Heritage, post-nominals are used in certain situations to denote Crown honours, awards, medals and official appointments.

Post-nominals have a specific order or precedence, and it is also not always appropriate to use all of them, depending on your audience or situation.

For example, if you have a PhD and a Bachelor‘s degree, you normally just put "PhD" and not "PhD, BA" following your name.

Generally, the highest-ranking awards come first after the name, unless the courtesy title "Esq." is used.  In that case, the post-nominals follow the courtesy title.

A British book, "Debrett‘s Correct Form", sets out the custom used in Britain and the Commonwealth for the use of post-nominal letters.  It includes both civil and military use, and styles of address, etc., for people of different rank and precedence.  The custom is similar in Canada, except that we have our own precedence because we have our own honours and awards, which do not include or recognize knighthoods.

The general ranking of letters after the name are as follows:

1. Orders and decorations conferred by the Crown.

2. Appointments to Crown offices, such as Privy Councellor (PC), and Aide de Camp (AdC).

3. Law appointments: Queen‘s Counsel (QC), Justice of the Peace (JP).

4. University degrees.

5. Religious orders, then medical qualifications.

6. Fellowships of learned societies, fellowships/memberships to professional institutions, and Writers to the Signet (WS).

7. Members of Parliament (MP) and Members of a Legislative Assembly (MLA) or Provincial Parliament (MPP).

8. Membership in one of the armed forces corps (RCAC, REME, etc).

All of these letters follow "Esq." if used.  If the person is a Baronet, they follow "Bt." if used.

The precedence of the orders is set by CF regulation.  The Canadian Forces Decoration (CD) is one of the last ones in the order of precedence.  The Order of Canada had three ranks and it is the most senior Canadian order.  Companion, the highest rank (CC), follows immediately after the VC and GC, unless the holder is a Companion of another more senior order (CH, CB, CSI, CMG), which isn‘t likely in Canada.

Check the DND website for the ranking of military honours.

Not all honours include post-nominals.

One thing I noticed is here in Canada, some people use "MID" as a post-nominal, to indicate a mention-in-despatches.  This is actually incorrect.  There is no post-nominal for this.
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Veteran`s son

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2003, 12:35:00 »
portcullisguy &  Spr. Earl

Thank you for your responses  to my question as it was most helpful!

Offline Spr.Earl

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2003, 13:04:00 »
So Port,that mean‘s I can‘t put V.D. after my name now? Ahhhh!
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2003, 15:21:00 »
Don‘t laugh, Spr. Earl, the Volunteer Decoration (VD) was actually awarded before it was replaced by the CD just before the Korean War.  I wonder if it was as funny then as it is to us now?
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Offline Danjanou

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2003, 15:41:00 »
****, Michael beat me to it (again).

I remember the first time I saw that(VD)on a list of orders and decoration and though it must be a typo.
NASA spent $12 Million designing a pen that could write in the zero gravity environment of space. The Russians went with pencils.

Offline Spr.Earl

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2003, 15:46:00 »
Touche Sir Micheal,
There‘s me being a smart arse.

I salute you.

Oh quetion,what come‘s first the C.D. or the Jubliee medal?
THE PRECEDING POST AND OTHERS MADE BY MYSELF ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS, NOT FOR REPRODUCTION, NOT FOR CUT AND PASTE OF ANY PORTION THEREOF, NO QUOTES ARE PERMITTED ELSEWHERE,ANYWHERE OTHER THAN EXCLUSIVELY IN THIS WEB FORUM.




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Offline Danjanou

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2003, 17:47:00 »
Jubilee Medal comes before the CD.
NASA spent $12 Million designing a pen that could write in the zero gravity environment of space. The Russians went with pencils.

MG34

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2003, 01:55:00 »
Everything goes before the CD even that idiotic CPSM.The CD is the lowest ranked decoration and it should be it is a gimmie medal like the Jubilee medals and 125 medal more wasted money so the PONTIs(Person of no tactical importance) could have gongs as well.

Offline Recce41

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2003, 06:15:00 »
The JM, CD, 125 mybe give aways but are decorations. In the Boar War, WW1/2, the had give aways, Volunteer medal etc. In Britian they have theirs also. The Commandwealth Service, Volunteer Serve, etc. We can wear the Commandwealth servise, but no one here would allow it. The US is the worst for give MEs.
In the begining, every soldier was to receive the following, turn of Cent medal 1900, Kings Medal, Queens Cor, Queens 25, Queens Jub, 125, Centenial 67, and some that never came about, Cent 2000, Noble Peace, NATO Service.
 Here at the Armour School we have loosers, with just the CD. Its funny, when them wine and cry. But tell them how can you go on tour, if your scared to go to the Regt.

  :evil:    :tank:
Canadian Decoration,Chief of Defence Staff Commandation.Bold and Swift/Airborne

Veteran`s son

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2003, 19:35:00 »
Do most people who have earned the Canadian Forces Decoration use the post-nominal letters(CD) after their name?  :salute:

Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2003, 19:58:00 »
I for one take great pride in my "gimme" medal; no one gave it to me, I earned it with 12 years service and good conduct.  And I do put CD after my name in formal correspondence.  I include it with my name on my book covers and I have it on the name plate outside my office at my civvie job.

Matters not, most people don‘t have a clue what it means, which is ok.  Surely 12 years service, even in the Reserve force, is as prestigious if not more than a Bachelor of Arts degree in Sociology or Humanities, which also comes with a post-nominal representing four years of sleeping in a classroom.
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Veteran`s son

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2003, 08:59:00 »
Michael

I think that it is great that you list the post-nominals(CD)after your name!   :)  
You must be very proud to have earned this medal!

Veteran`s son

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2003, 07:42:00 »
Am I correct in understanding that since my Dad served in the RCE, he was entitled to have that abbreviation after his name?

Does that apply only to CF members who are currently serving?

Also, are there any other medals such as the SSM that are being considered for the use of post-nominal letters?

Offline Another Recce Guy

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2003, 09:02:00 »
Usually, post nominal letters are only for Orders or decorations, not medals.
How will you answer your grandchildren when they what you did in the war?

Also, be careful of those that mistake authority for leadership.

Offline Hatchet Man

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2003, 13:13:00 »
If you the complete list of Canadian Medals and Honours, go to  http://www.gg.ca/honours/ordprec_e.asp
This is the complete list of honours and decorations that can be awarded to Canadians, also it indicates which awards include the right to use post nominal letters and they are in order of precedence (a CD is not the lowest). The DND list is incomplete, they even state on the DND site that they only list medals commonly awarded to military members, but all military members can wear the non-DND listed awards if they have earned them. They may raise eyebrows though.  On member of my unit was awarded the Ontario Police Bravery Medal, and the Sr NCO flipped cause they didn‘t what it was. I myself in a few years time will have earned the "Service Medal of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem" and probably also a grade of "The Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem". Both will get me noticed though

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2007, 19:11:05 »
This is a very old post but I needed to post after reading it.  I was wondering, are military and civil decorations and commendation post nominals, V.C., M.B., C.C. etc, held in the same regard as say regular educational/vocational post nominals like M.D., P.T. or B.A. etc.  Do post-nominals being issued by the Canadian Government as opposed to ones being issued by a College of Nurses for example or Physicians, have any added privileges, or be recognized in a different manner by the government?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 19:19:06 by nbpcp »

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2007, 19:34:13 »
Knew an old soldier once that had these - CD, VD Clap, and Scar (and its not me  ;D)

Ha!

With the five gongs I have, the only P-N is the CD, which I do use here but not very often.

Cheers,

Wes
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 19:41:29 by Wesley Down Under »
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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2007, 22:54:16 »
In the modern Canadian Forces, the use of post-nominal letters to identify branch, corps or regiment is no longer in style.  In fact, I believe it is not even authorized.  Following the unification of the army, the RCN and the RCAF into the CAF, there was no longer a reason for post-nominal letters to denote what service a person belonged to.  Up until that point, it was necessary for a Lt. in the RCN to have post-nominals to distinguish himself from a subaltern in the army.  With the creation of the ranks of Lt (N) and Capt (N), this was no longer necessary.  So, for a modern officer to add post-nominals to their name signifying their branch would be highly unusual.

Since your father was a member of the RCE, he WAS in the army before unification and thus is from a period when such post-nominals were fashionable.  However, since your father was a member of the other ranks, he would not have been entitled to use them.  An example of a person who would use such post-nominals is:  Capt John Smith PPCLI  An example of a retired person who would use them could be:  Mr. Joseph Bloggins  RCEME (ret.)  In this case, the officer was a subaltern when he retired.

Offline Aerobicrunner

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2007, 12:33:03 »
Refs: A.  QR&O 15.09
B.  A-AD-200-000/AG-000 The Honours, Flags and Heritage Structure of the Canadian Forces
C.  A-AD-121-000/AB-001 The Canadian Style, ISBN 1-55002-276-8-93-8    http://www.translationbureau.gc.ca/index.php?lang=english&cont=791
     (Ref C is the publication which was put out originally by the Secretary of State, but the Revised and Expanded version was put out by the Translation Bureau of the Cdn
      Govt stating proper protocols for all manners of official writing.  With the demise of the CF Military Writing Manual, the Canadian Style manual was adopted as a   
      guide.)   

Ref B lists the honours and awards that are allowed to be inserted after a name as a Post Nominal. There is no Post Nominal for CDS Commendation or Mentioned in Despatches.  The letters are not abbreviated, i.e. you do not put V.C. or C.D. only VC or CD.  You do not put CD1 or CD2.  Steve031 is correct in saying that the use of branch, corps etc is no longer used and is not authorized.  If you are retired and use your rank, the only authorized post nominal to be used is "Retired" or the abbreviation "Ret'd as stated in Refs A and B.  Also note that you must have served at least 10 years to be able to use the title Retired after your name.  Refs B (Chap 11 para 18) and C (article 1.08) allow academic titles to be used. Ref C allows for degrees, professional designations and memberships and states "Unless all honours have to be indicated for information or protocol purposes, no more than two abbreviations need follow a persons name- as, for example, in correspondence.  Select the two Highest honours of different types and list them in the following order of precedence: first, distinctions conferred directly by the Crown (VC, CD, QC, etc.); second, university degrees (MA, BCom, etc.); and third, letters denoting membership in societies and other distinctions (PEng, CA, CHRP, etc.).  Note that no periods are used."

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2007, 13:49:17 »
Refs: A.  QR&O 15.09
B.  A-AD-200-000/AG-000 The Honours, Flags and Heritage Structure of the Canadian Forces

Ref B lists the honours and awards that are allowed to be inserted after a name as a Post Nominal. There is no Post Nominal for CDS Commendation or Mentioned in Despatches.  The letters are not abbreviated, i.e. you do not put V.C. or C.D. only VC or CD. 

Chap 2, Annex A, Appendix 1 of the Ref B above says it is a "(Reprint of Order in Council PC 1998-591 of 2 April 1998 (Canadian Orders, Decorations and Medals Directive, 1998))".  It shows the postnominals without periods.

The following is from Canadian Orders, Decorations and Medals Directive, 1998    P.C. 1998-591 2 April, 1998

1. The sequence for wearing the insignia of Canadian orders, decorations and medals, and the post-nominal letters associated with the orders, decorations and medals, are the following:

Victoria Cross (V.C.)
Cross of Valour (C.V.)

NATIONAL ORDERS

Companion of the Order of Canada (C.C.)
Officer of the Order of Canada (O.C.)
Member of the Order of Canada (C.M.)
Commander of the Order of Military Merit (C.M.M.)
Commander of the Royal Victorian Order (C.V.O.)
Officer of the Order of Military Merit (O.M.M.)
Lieutenant of the Royal Victorian Order (L.V.O.)
Member of the Order of Military Merit (M.M.M.)
Member of the Royal Victorian Order (M.V.O.)
The Most Venerable Order of St. John of Jerusalem (all grades) (post-nominal letters only for internal use by the Order of St. John)

PROVINCIAL ORDERS

Ordre national du Québec (G.O.Q., O.Q., C.Q.)
The Saskatchewan Order of Merit (S.O.M.)
The Order of Ontario (O.Ont.)
The Order of British Columbia (O.B.C.)
The Alberta Order of Excellence (A.O.E.)
The Order of Prince Edward Island (O.P.E.I.)

DECORATIONS

Star of Military Valour (S.M.V.)
Star of Courage (S.C.)
Meritorious Service Cross (M.S.C.)
Medal of Military Valour (M.M.V.)
Medal of Bravery (M.B.)
Meritorious Service Medal (M.S.M.)
Royal Victorian Medal (R.V.M.)

Canadian Forces Decoration (C.D.)

Ontario Medal for Good Citizenship (O.M.C.)
Saskatchewan Volunteer Medal (S.V.M.)


Note the periods in the postnominals.  The CF manual is incorrect.
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Offline Aerobicrunner

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2007, 15:17:49 »
Thanks for that observation and link BA1916.  The CF manual has been trumped.  I will see if I can bring this up with the Directorate of History and Heritage to have them make amendments to the manual.  I also decided to send an email to the Translation Bureau, the organization reponsible for publishing The Canadian Style to see if they can correct their information bank and reflect the changes in their next manual.
Note to Add:  Already received a stock reply from Translation Bureau stating that my comments will be considered in due time.

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2007, 16:40:35 »
Just when one thinks that they have found the smoking gun, an explanation appears.  I guess that current federal laws and regulations don't follow current Canadian style or perhaps the CF sets its own style.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/018-12_e.asp
Quote
CFAO 18-12 -- ORDERS, DECORATIONS AND MEDALS -PRECEDENCE

1.     The protocol for wearing the insignia of Canadian orders, decorations, and medals, separately or together with Commonwealth or foreign individual honours, is governed by the directive reprinted in Annex A.
.....

4.     Authorized Post-nominal Letters for use in correspondence and documentation are indicated in Annex A inside brackets. Post-nominal Letters are customarily only designated for Canadian and Commonwealth Orders and Decorations.

5.     The use or omission of periods between post-nominal letters is a matter of grammatical style. Modern Canadian style is to omit the periods, which are included in Annex A only for the purpose of accurate transcription
.
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Offline TCBF

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2007, 17:42:45 »
Everything goes before the CD even that idiotic CPSM.The CD is the lowest ranked decoration and it should be it is a gimmie medal like the Jubilee medals and 125 medal more wasted money so the PONTIs(Person of no tactical importance) could have gongs as well.

- In days of yore, it was very rare to get a CD in only 12 years.  Remember that before 2/3s of Vol 2 was re-written in the mid 90s, the opening sentence for the chapter on the laying of charges was "A charge is layed when there are reasonable grounds to suspect an offence has been commited."

Not "could be layed", not "might be layed", not "if the social worker says it's okay"...

No gnashing of teeth, calling the AJAG-cum-Padre, no having to prove a guy guilty before you have to prove him guilty, just lay the charge and hope he folds up like a cheap suitcase when he goes in front of The Old Man.

EVERYBODY had something on their conduct sheet.  Almost all of them for a charge during basic, then charges for drunkeness on the Regimental Birthday, then for two weeks AWOL during hunting season, then of course no one EVER got through CB without being charged at least one more for railroad tracks on the workdress trousers on the 2300 hours show parade on the parade square (by flashlight).

So we had a whole generation of long-service NCOs with delayed CDs because of their charges and "piss-can time".

And a fine bunch of NCOs they were, too.  Best in the world.

Tom
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