Author Topic: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]  (Read 96443 times)

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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2007, 17:56:21 »
As it relates to the common practise of denigrating the Canadian Forces Decoration, I'll direct those who may be interested to a story that I told on another thread.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,47050.msg409156.html#msg409156
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Offline Shamrock

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2007, 18:00:20 »
- In days of yore, it was very rare to get a CD in only 12 years.  Remember that before 2/3s of Vol 2 was re-written in the mid 90s, the opening sentence for the chapter on the laying of charges was "A charge is layed when there are reasonable grounds to suspect an offence has been commited."

Not "could be layed", not "might be layed", not "if the social worker says it's okay"...

No gnashing of teeth, calling the AJAG-cum-Padre, no having to prove a guy guilty before you have to prove him guilty, just lay the charge and hope he folds up like a cheap suitcase when he goes in front of The Old Man.

EVERYBODY had something on their conduct sheet.  Almost all of them for a charge during basic, then charges for drunkeness on the Regimental Birthday, then for two weeks AWOL during hunting season, then of course no one EVER got through CB without being charged at least one more for railroad tracks on the workdress trousers on the 2300 hours show parade on the parade square (by flashlight).

So we had a whole generation of long-service NCOs with delayed CDs because of their charges and "piss-can time".

And a fine bunch of NCOs they were, too.  Best in the world.

Tom

I seem to recall recorded warnings being handed out like candy a few years ago.

Offline nbpcp

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2007, 07:48:25 »
Has any heard of someone putting their post-nominals on their drivers license? Ive heard of doctors doing this but would it be laughed at if someone in the military did this?

Offline LCIS-Tech

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2007, 00:40:39 »
I know that this topic is getting a little off the mark now, with all of this talk about CDs and such, but I thought: "what the hell. Throw my 2 cents in too". I had not read the thread that Blackadder had posted, and I admit that I had never thought of my CD in quite that way. Having only recently recieved my first bar to my CD, I (even as recently as a couple of months ago) have referred to it as 22 years of (not undetected, but rather) un PROVEN crime. That story certainly puts a different perspective on it. I like it. On another note however, I also happen to have my "Germany Beer Drinking Medal", and, to my ever-lasting shame, the 125 and QGJM. Truth be told, I never wore my 125 medal for the longest time. I just didn't right wearing it. It "should" have gone to EVERY member of the CF who was serving their country during it's 125th anniversary. It was a commemorative medal afterall! The same held true for the QGJM. As with the British, EVERY CF Member "should" have recieved that Medal in recongition of their service during the Quenn's golden jubilee. The only reason I actually went out and got them court-mounted and started wearing them was that a keen-eyed MWO.... who will remain nameless (you know who you are....Mike)....happened to notice them listed on my MPRR and asked me on following 1A Parade where they were....It still kind of irks me a bit, buit at least I have something to show that I was serving during those "milestone years"....

Offline Roy Harding

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2007, 00:43:41 »
That post by Blackadder IS thought provoking, isn't it?

I'm glad he posted it - I think about it every time I look at the (previously) least valued item on my "rack".
I love mankind.  It's people I can't stand.

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Offline IN HOC SIGNO

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2007, 05:36:05 »
Yes that was a great post Blackadder. the last time I got a bar to the CD I asked the presenter what he was going to say. He looked rather surprised and asked me why I was asking. I said because if you're going to make lame remarks about so many years of undetected crime you might as well save us the embarrassement and just give it to me in his office. He looked surprised and said "so what do you want me to say seeing as you have such a strong opinion about it." I said how about "this is an honour that is proudly worn to indicate another 10 years of dedicated service to Queen and country." That's exactly what he said too and predicated it with the story about me asking him not to refer to it as a medal for simply putting in time.
(I wear it proudly next to my "I went to Cyprus and gained 10 pounds at Meseh dinners" medal and my "The CF got a Nobel Peace Prize so I got this one to commemorate it" medal.)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 05:41:19 by IN HOC SIGNO »

Offline Aerobicrunner

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2007, 16:52:22 »
Just when one thinks that they have found the smoking gun, an explanation appears.  I guess that current federal laws and regulations don't follow current Canadian style or perhaps the CF sets its own style.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/018-12_e.asp

I have just received the following email from the Linguisitcs Advisor of the Translation Bureau of Public Works and Government Services regarding my query on Post Nominals.  However, it may be a mute point in view of Black Adder's research.  However they did agree to meet the QR&O article on the proper abbreviation of Retired.

"We will consider your comments and references on post nominals whenever the time comes to update The Canadian Style. It seems, for the moment, to be a matter of in-house style preference. The best we can offer for now is to choose a style and use it consistently.

As for the word "Retired," we can have the online version of The Canadian Style changed to reflect article 15.09 of the Queens Regulations and Orders. Thank you for pointing this out."

Offline Wolf117

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2012, 15:49:35 »
Hello

I'm trying to find out what being on Initial Counselling does to your eligibility to receive your CD.  Does it bump it back a certain period of time or completely negate you receiving it?

Thanks.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2012, 16:04:28 »
Can't find a more recent edition of CFP 200, but the 2003 edition I have states:

Quote
13. A member who is on probation or on report
because of inefficiency (see Canadian Forces
Administrative Order (CFAO) 26-17, Recorded
Warning and Counselling on Probation - Other Ranks
and CFAO 26-21, Career Shortcomings - Officers)
shall not be recommended for the CD or a clasp until
his probationary or report period has been terminated
and he has been satisfactorily reported on. If he
should become or is about to be the subject of an
adverse report subsequent to being recommended
but prior to being invested with the CD or clasp, the
case shall be referred to NDHQ.
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2012, 16:21:20 »
An IC will definitely not result in a mbr never getting their CD.   WRT to forefeited time towards, etc, I uhhhh...have a buddy who was on an IC a few years ago and it didn't change his 1st clasp eligibility date at all. 



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Offline Shamrock

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2012, 19:03:08 »
Can't find a more recent edition of CFP 200, but the 2003 edition I have states:

Sadly, it has been replaced with:

Quote
6A. Honours to individuals have been deleted
from this manual and will be the subject of a separate
publication to be issued later by the Directorate
Honours and Recognition.

And the cited CFAO has been cancelled.

Granted, I can find no specific reference stating the CD should be awarded at all, so I should clearly call it a night.

An IC is a remedial measure

Offline Occam

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2012, 21:11:18 »
The cited CFAO has been replaced by DAOD 5019-4, Remedial Measures.  An IC is the equivalent of the old VW.  I don't believe any remedial measures result in deferred time for your CD, as they aren't disciplinary actions resulting in an entry on your conduct sheet.  As for the references...maybe tomorrow?

Offline Aerobicrunner

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2012, 21:45:43 »
Sadly, it has been replaced with:

And the cited CFAO has been cancelled.

Granted, I can find no specific reference stating the CD should be awarded at all, so I should clearly call it a night.

An IC is a remedial measure

Ref A. QR&O 18.27 - Forfeiture of Medals - http://admfincs.mil.ca/qr_o/vol1/ch018_e.asp#18.01
B. DH&R CD Site -  http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dhr-ddhr/chc-tdh/chart-tableau-eng.asp?ref=CD
C.   Adm Process for CD - http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/DHRIM/mhrrp/Ch18/engraph/ch18_e.pdf
D.  McCreery, Christopher. The Canadian Forces Decoration. Directorate of Honours and Recognition. Publication DGM-10-04-0007
E.  DAOD 5019 - Remedial Measures


DH&R publishes all the Honours and Awards at ref B (intranet only and much easier than amending publications) and it states time required for eligibility.  Note the bit about post nominals i.e. CD not CD1 or CD2.  Ref C  reinforces the eligibility time and the administrative processes involved in forfeiture of time. Ref A indicates conditions to forfeit medals.  Ref D is the publication that was commissioned by DH&R to commemorate the 60th year of the CD.  Appendix 4 in the book indicates the current Regulations and eligibility for the Establishment of the Canadian Forces Decoration with Order in Council PC 1981-2310 19 Aug 81.

Ref E are Remedial Measures (RM) and are administrative in nature, not disciplinary, so one would not forfeit time as a result of being placed on C&P, as reiterated at ref C above.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2012, 07:45:30 »
 :goodpost:


Internet link to DAOD 5019-4 - Remedial Measures....just in case you missed Occam's post [like I did].  :blotto:
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 12:49:37 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Shamrock

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2012, 09:50:50 »
Found it (edit: apparently, well after aerobicrunner had, so I should just call it a night):

APM-245 chapter 18 (viewable at http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/DHRIM/mhrrp/Ch18/engraph/ch18_e.pdf)

Quote
7.0 Current Non-Creditable Service Days (CNCSD)

The number of CNCSD is the cumulated sum of service days that the member cannot count as qualifying time for the CD. Non-creditable service days shall include days described in the sections below entitled “Forfeiture” and “Non-Creditable Service”. Total CNCSD are added to the CD Base Date to calculate the eligibility date.

9.0  Forfeiture

9.1  Every day of forfeiture shall be added to the member’s CNCSD.

9.2  One day’s forfeiture shall be imposed IAW QR&Os 208.30 and 208.31 for each day the member is:
  a. Absent Without Leave (AWOL) when the member has been found guilty of being absent without authority;
  b. absent as a deserter when the member has been found guilty of desertion;
  c. undergoing a punishment of imprisonment or detention imposed by a service or civil tribunal;
  d. in civil custody, while not on leave with pay and allowances and awaiting trial by a civil tribunal if the civil tribunal subsequently finds the member guilty of an offence;
  e. in hospital awaiting trial by a service or civil tribunal if:
    (1) the tribunal subsequently finds the member guilty of an offence;
    (2) in the opinion of the medical offr attending the member, the period of hospitalization is a direct result of the commission of the offence for which the member was convicted; and
    (3) the offr commanding the command or formation concurs with the opinion of the medical offr; and
  f. deemed to have rendered no military service for any other period not previously described.

9.  3 In addition to any forfeiture imposed above, the member shall forfeit one calendar year (365 days) of qualifying service for each 12-month period in which a punishment, other than a fine or minor punishment, is awarded by a service tribunal.

10.0 Non-Creditable Service

10.1 Every day of non-creditable service shall be added to the member’s CNCSD.
10.2 One day of non-creditable service shall accrue for each day:
  a. the Reg F member is:
    (1) absent on Leave Without Pay (LWOP), except for maternity or parental purposes; and
    (2) on imposed Limitation Of Payments (LOP) IAW QR&O 203.20; and
  b. the Res F member is:
    (1) on authorized Exempt Duty and Training (ED&T), except for maternity or parental purposes;
    (2) declared Non-Effective Strength (NES);
    (3) on annuitant break IAW CF Mil Pers Instr 20/04; and/or
    (4) on the Supp Res list.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 09:54:29 by Shamrock »

Offline Occam

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2012, 11:45:21 »
Internet link to DAOD 5019-4 - Remedial Measures

Now why didn't I think of posting that link?   ;)

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2012, 11:56:39 »
Has CFAO 18-9 The Canadian Forces Decoration been superceded?  It is used to be the enabling order for the CD.  While the previous posts well outline what days are not credited for the CD, has there been a change in policy in awarding the decoration while on remedial measures.  In the old days, being on RW or C&P would (or should) delay the awarding (i.e. recommendation and presentation) of the CD/clasp.  The eligibility date didn't change, you just didn't get the medal until after completing the RW/C&P period.

The (old ?) CFAO 18-9 read:
Quote
CONDUCT, EFFICIENCY AND TIME PREREQUISITE

7.   To be eligible for the CD or a clasp the member must have a record of
good conduct.  No member shall be considered to have a record of good
conduct if during the last eight years of claimed service he has been
awarded a punishment by a service tribunal other than a fine or a minor
punishment listed in QR&O 104.13 -Minor Punishments.  For the purposes
of this order, a punishment awarded by a service tribunal outside Canada,
upon conviction of an offence which if committed in Canada would have been
dealt with by a civil court, shall be deemed to be a punishment awarded by
a civil court.

8.   Periods of leave without pay, or periods during which a limitation of
payments was imposed (see QR&O 203.20 -Officers -Regular Force -
Limitations of Payment), or periods of forfeiture for absence without leave
or desertion or a punishment (see QR&O  208.30 -Forfeitures -Officers
and Men) or periods of forfeiture for no services rendered (see QR&O
208.31 -Forfeitures, Deductions and Cancellations -When No Service
Rendered) shall not count for the award of a CD or a clasp.  In addition,
the member shall forfeit one year of service for each 12-month period in
which a punishment, other than a fine or minor punishment, is awarded by a
service tribunal.

9.   Except that periods in respect of which a forfeiture has been imposed
for a period where no services were rendered or as a result of a punishment
awarded by a civil court shall not count as qualifying service, civil
offenses shall not be equated with service offenses but shall, if
considered to be a factor, be referred to NDHQ for a ruling.

10.  When qualifying service is in a British Commonwealth of Nations force
other than the Canadian Forces, the "non-qualifying" conditions specified
in paragraphs 8 and 9 apply to equivalent terms in that other force.

11.  In exceptional circumstances, such as where a member has been granted
an award for brave or meritorious service, the provisions of paragraphs 7,
8 and 9 may be waived by the Chief of the Defence Staff if the member has
completed 12 years of full-time paid service.

12.  A member who is on probation or on report because of inefficiency (see
CFAO 26-17, Recorded Warning and Counselling on Probation -Other Ranks and
CFAO 26-21, Career Shortcomings -Officers) shall not be recommended for
the CD or a clasp until his probationary or report period has been
terminated and he has been satisfactorily reported on.  If he should become
or is about to be the subject of a adverse report subsequent to being
recommended but prior to being invested with the CD or clasp, the case
shall be referred to NDHQ.

13.  A member who has been, or is about to be, the subject of an adverse
report shall not be recommended for the CD or a clasp until the cause of
the adverse report has been remedied and he is again the subject of a
satisfactory report.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 11:59:29 by Blackadder1916 »
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Offline Shamrock

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2012, 12:29:16 »
CFAO 18-9 -- THE CANADIAN FORCES DECORATION


Cancelled 2008-11-28



Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2012, 12:48:17 »
Now why didn't I think of posting that link?   ;)

Doh!!!   :facepalm:
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Offline GreenMarine

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2013, 16:30:52 »
OK just reading the above some clarity.

AWOL takes away from a CD

But it is also a Minor punishment.

My CD is due July 14 and I'm looking at a AWOL Charge this week (late 15min due to icy road conditions) and Summary trail (unclear if I get to elect of CM) next week so is it delayed 1 day or I have to wait another 7-8 years??  JAG wasn't clear when I asked.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2013, 16:38:27 »
My CD is due July 14 and I'm looking at a AWOL Charge this week (late 15min due to icy road conditions) and Summary trail (unclear if I get to elect of CM) next week so is it delayed 1 day or I have to wait another 7-8 years??  JAG wasn't clear when I asked.

 ;D

 >:D

Just a point, that most here will confirm; you will not get your CD on your due date.  It is almost always guaranteed to be later.  In fact, you may find some that waited two or more years to get theirs. 

That being said, I don't think you will have a definite answer until such time as you have been "convicted" of being AWOL.  If the Charge is thrown out for any reason, your worries are moot points.
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Offline DAA

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2013, 16:41:26 »
OK just reading the above some clarity.
AWOL takes away from a CD
But it is also a Minor punishment.
My CD is due July 14 and I'm looking at a AWOL Charge this week (late 15min due to icy road conditions) and Summary trail (unclear if I get to elect of CM) next week so is it delayed 1 day or I have to wait another 7-8 years??  JAG wasn't clear when I asked.

Depends on what the final outcome is of the AWOL Charge.  If your found guilty and awarded what is considered to be a "minor punishment", then there is should be no impact.
Got a question that you're afraid to ask online?  PM me!  I don't bite........

Offline dangerboy

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2013, 16:43:39 »
My CD is due July 14 and I'm looking at a AWOL Charge this week (late 15min due to icy road conditions) and Summary trail (unclear if I get to elect of CM) next week so is it delayed 1 day or I have to wait another 7-8 years??  JAG wasn't clear when I asked.

Under QR&O 108.17 the five minor charges that are not electable are: Insubordinate Behaviour (85), Quarrels and Disturbances (86), Absence Without Leave (90), Drunkenness (97), and Conduct to the Prejudice of Good Order and Discipline (129) - only in regards to training, maintenance of personal equipment, quarters or workspace, or dress and deportment.  If you are charged under one of those five you normally don't get to elect CM. Your assistance officer should explain all this to you.
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Offline GreenMarine

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2013, 15:11:39 »
Charged Guilty of AWOL, Punishment a Caution....Reprimand was the only one that could effect a CD as I found out later.
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Offline Benzyme

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Re: Canadian Decoration: C.D. [Merged]
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2013, 12:37:26 »
What a joke the system can be...

Basically, if your punishment is a Caution, you shouldn't even be charged in the first place.
Your charge will also not appear on your conduct sheet.

I personally don't believe you should have been charged in the first place, unless this is a recurring thing on your part.

You can consider this "guilty" verdict a win.