Author Topic: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?  (Read 255368 times)

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Online mariomike

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Re: Flags "Out of Order, out of Sync"
« Reply #600 on: September 16, 2017, 16:05:53 »
I don't know what the flag protocol is for the Town of Innisfail.

But, this is the flag protocol in the City of Toronto,

Q.  When displaying the city flag with provincial and federal flags, what order should they be in?

A.  From the perspective of the audience facing the flags, the Canadian flag should be placed in the centre, the provincial flag on the left, and the city flag on the right.

If there are only two flags, the Canadian and the City flag, then from the perspective of the audience facing the flags, the Canadian flag should be on the left and the City flag on the right.
https://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=4e0081d025945410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD&vgnextchannel=7bbdb3066f9e1410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

See also,

Sharing the same base – three flags

When only three flags are displayed, the National Flag of Canada should be at the centre. To an observer facing the display, the second-ranking flag is placed to the left of centre, and the other to the right.

A common combination of flags is the National Flag of Canada with a provincial or territorial flag, and a municipal flag or an organization’s banner. In this case, the National Flag should be in the centre with the provincial/territorial flag to the left and the municipal flag/organization’s banner to the right (to an observer facing the display).
https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/services/flag-canada-etiquette/flying-rules.html#a22
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 16:14:06 by mariomike »

Offline No Hel Like Tac Hel

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Re: Flags "Out of Order, out of Sync"
« Reply #601 on: September 16, 2017, 16:13:47 »
I have updated my original post to include "When two or more than three flags are flown together, the Canadian Flag shall be on the left, as seen by spectators in front of the flags, with the other flags flown in order of precedence from left to right."

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Flags "Out of Order, out of Sync"
« Reply #602 on: September 16, 2017, 16:59:26 »
Well, there is no two way about it: Jim is an idiot!

Only an idiot would even begin to believe that the internal rules of a private organization, such as the Legion, should apply to everybody else on the planet, and then, pretend to put them in their place without even checking what rules apply to these other people.

It is unfortunate that there is a certain element of this view in many members of the R.C.L. (such as Legion members pretending to have the power to tell/order people around on how and when to wear their damn poppies, even after we bought them and therefore, they belong to us (I am not talking about breach of the copyright, here).

Moreover, regardless of Legion protocol, when flags are employed in Canada, I would tend to use whatever protocol is propounded by Heritage Canada over anybody else's proposed protocol. 

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Flags "Out of Order, out of Sync"
« Reply #603 on: September 17, 2017, 08:58:12 »
Gee, another 'Legion / douchebag' story.   :boring:    (Don't we have a Legion-bashing thread already running?  It's probably near a "veteran-themed bike club run by dictators" thread)


[I don't think this fits as either "Military Affairs" or "News"    ymmv  ]
There’s nothing more maddening than debating someone who doesn’t know history, doesn’t read books, and frames their myopia as virtue. The level of unapologetic conjecture I’ve encountered lately isn’t just frustrating, it’s retrogressive, unprecedented, and absolutely terrifying.
~Chris Evans

Online mariomike

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Re: Flags "Out of Order, out of Sync"
« Reply #604 on: September 17, 2017, 11:06:44 »
(Don't we have a Legion-bashing thread already running?

Topic merged.

Offline No Hel Like Tac Hel

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #605 on: September 19, 2017, 02:23:00 »
To all of you, this was not meant to be a RCL bashing post.  The Legion is a great organization.  This post was to show that there are some within the Legion that want to run it their own way, stating that they are running it within Legion protocol, but are running it the way they want to run it, in their own opinion.  With my original post, it was intended to raise awareness of cases like this and get opinion from others on it.  Ultimately, I wanted to highlight this case, as there are many other cases like this in other Legions across Canada, and encourage any members/veterans to confront anyone that uses opinion over fact (as stated in any Legion manual) and explain to them that what they are doing is wrong and show them the correct protocol as stated in the Legion manuals.  These Legion manuals have 90 years of blood, sweat and tears in them.  If we do not carry out proper protocol, we might as well close the Legion doors.

Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #606 on: September 19, 2017, 07:13:23 »
Posted before ?

Why today’s veterans avoid the Royal Canadian Legion

Most members of today’s Legion have never spent a day in military uniform

https://nowtoronto.com/news/why-todays-veterans-avoid-the-royal-canadian-legion/
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Offline Journeyman

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #607 on: September 19, 2017, 07:58:57 »
The Legion is a great organization.
The consensus of the 24 pages preceding your post is one of strong disagreement.

Quote
If we do not carry out proper protocol, we might as well close the Legion doors.
...and virtually none of the disagreement about the Legion's "greatness" is due to flag protocol.



If being a Legion member works for you though, enjoy.     [not sarcasm]
There’s nothing more maddening than debating someone who doesn’t know history, doesn’t read books, and frames their myopia as virtue. The level of unapologetic conjecture I’ve encountered lately isn’t just frustrating, it’s retrogressive, unprecedented, and absolutely terrifying.
~Chris Evans

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #608 on: September 27, 2017, 23:18:55 »
The BC/Yukon Command president suspended eight executives following a harassment investigation (per BC's WorkSafe regulations).  So Dominion Command quashed the suspensions, removed him from office, and replaced him with one of the people he had suspended.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/legion-suspends-entire-b-c-executive-after-whistleblower-reveals-harassment-case-1.3609109

This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Colin P

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #609 on: October 23, 2017, 11:12:55 »
Posted before ?

Why today’s veterans avoid the Royal Canadian Legion

Most members of today’s Legion have never spent a day in military uniform

https://nowtoronto.com/news/why-todays-veterans-avoid-the-royal-canadian-legion/

Considering 10%of the members do 90% of the work in any voluntary organizations, I wonder if those military/ex-military types are going to be the majority of that 10%? 

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #610 on: July 31, 2018, 14:45:29 »
Quote
Veterans threaten to give back special licence plates if RCMP are eligible for same plates

The B.C. government is in the midst of public consultation to decide whether retired RCMP officers should also be eligible to receive the special plate.

….members of the B.C. Veterans Commemorative Association (BCVCA), met with Attorney General David Eby on Monday to say the RCMP should not be eligible for the special plates. The BCVCA are currently involved with reviewing the applications and have approved over 57,000 military veterans to receive the plates in British Columbia. "The veterans licence plate is a revered honour for military veterans. It is a public acknowledgment that the public is appreciative of the valour and the sacrifice our veterans made. It is very sacred to them," BCVCA member Sheral Fraser said.

But the Royal Canadian Legion has made the argument that the definition of veteran is changing. The legion has opened the door to former RCMP officers to become members and have led the charge to change the licence plate rules in Ontario, Quebec, Newfoundland and Nova Scotia.
LINK
Apparently the definition of a veteran is "someone who doesn't join the Legion."    :pop:

There’s nothing more maddening than debating someone who doesn’t know history, doesn’t read books, and frames their myopia as virtue. The level of unapologetic conjecture I’ve encountered lately isn’t just frustrating, it’s retrogressive, unprecedented, and absolutely terrifying.
~Chris Evans

Offline Brihard

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #611 on: July 31, 2018, 14:50:20 »
Six provinces already give them to any serving/former RCMP, and every province/territory that is vets plates but one (NWT) will give them to RCMP who served in a Special Duty Area.

I don’t personally care either way, but this is just another case of Veterans Outrage Syndrome.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #612 on: July 31, 2018, 15:05:33 »
Six provinces already give them to any serving/former RCMP, and every province/territory that is vets plates but one (NWT) will give them to RCMP who served in a Special Duty Area.

I don’t personally care either way
Speaking solely as someone without Vet's plates or Legion membership, I'm not too worked up either;  just passing along the butt-hurt  (there was another article on Jane Fonda being disappointed in Trudeau, but I thought that this was more gripping)   ;)
There’s nothing more maddening than debating someone who doesn’t know history, doesn’t read books, and frames their myopia as virtue. The level of unapologetic conjecture I’ve encountered lately isn’t just frustrating, it’s retrogressive, unprecedented, and absolutely terrifying.
~Chris Evans

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #613 on: July 31, 2018, 16:20:09 »
Quote
Veterans threaten to give back special licence plates

Yea sure they will..


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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #614 on: July 31, 2018, 20:54:45 »
Quote
….members of the B.C. Veterans Commemorative Association (BCVCA), met with Attorney General David Eby on Monday to say the RCMP should not be eligible for the special plates. The BCVCA are currently involved with reviewing the applications and have approved over 57,000 military veterans to receive the plates in British Columbia. "The veterans licence plate is a revered honour for military veterans. It is a public acknowledgment that the public is appreciative of the valour and the sacrifice our veterans made. It is very sacred to them," BCVCA member Sheral Fraser said.

I got curious who "our" veterans were so looked up their criteria.

Quote
    WWII, Korea, Gulf War, the Balkan Wars, Afghanistan, or other UN Peacekeeping Missions as a member of:
            The Canadian Armed Forces, or
            An Allied Force, or
            The Canadian or Allied War Time Merchant Navy
    A member of the Canadian Armed Forces, Regular or Reserves, who successfully completed basic training
    UN or NATO Operations as a member of:
            The Canadian Armed Forces, or
            A UN or NATO Alliance Force serving in an Operation with the Canadian Armed Forces
    UN or NATO operation under command of the Canadian Armed Forces as a member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Municipal Police, or Correctional Services of Canada
    Similarly qualified member of a British Commonwealth of Nations Armed Force who are honourably discharged. Unfortunately, currently serving members are not eligible.

Glad to see that if a member of the Army of Uruguay who served on Op CROCODILE retires and moves to BC, they will be able to get a plate though...

Offline Furniture

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #615 on: July 31, 2018, 22:09:27 »
Seems like the standard vetflakes/Rememberance Day heros are out in one's and two's to create a media buzz...



Offline Pusser

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #616 on: August 01, 2018, 10:28:46 »
Denying the RCMP status as "veterans" is utter nonsense.  The people against this need to do some research.  Consider:

1)  they are a paramilitary organization with very strong military traditions
2)  NWMP members formed the nucleus of Lord Strathcona's Horse when that regiment was raised during the Boer War
3)  NWMP members also formed several units for service in WWI
4)  Canada had no Military Police at the beginning of WWII and RCMP members stepped up to from Provost Companies
5)  By Royal decree, they are officially a "Regiment of Dragoons," which gives them the right to carry battle honours (which they do - including the Northwest Rebellions, the Boer War and both World Wars)
6)  They serve in a counter-intelligence and national security role, most notably in wartime
7)  The NWMP/RNWMP/RCMP have been involved in every conflict in which Canada has engaged since their formation and their members continue to serve on military operations today

The RCMP has earned it's place on the fourth corner of the National War Memorial and they are veterans.
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Online Eagle Eye View

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #617 on: August 01, 2018, 10:35:15 »
 :goodpost: Well said!
Leadership and learning are indispensable to each other.

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Offline Rifleman62

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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #619 on: August 01, 2018, 10:56:22 »
So the RCMP officer I would occasionally work with from the POMLT in Afghanistan is less (ie NOT) a veteran, vs a CAF member who, while also serving their country, may have never left the safety/confines of Canada itself? ???

*sigh*

::)

Online mariomike

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #620 on: August 01, 2018, 11:03:57 »
"Veterans threaten to give back special licence plates if RCMP are eligible for same plates"

See also,

What is a Veteran?
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,29033.100.html
5 pages.

Veterans License Plates 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=18176.100
5 pages.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 11:08:42 by mariomike »

Offline medicineman

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #621 on: August 01, 2018, 11:12:46 »
Denying the RCMP status as "veterans" is utter nonsense.  The people against this need to do some research.  Consider:

1)  they are a paramilitary organization with very strong military traditions
2)  NWMP members formed the nucleus of Lord Strathcona's Horse when that regiment was raised during the Boer War
3)  NWMP members also formed several units for service in WWI
4)  Canada had no Military Police at the beginning of WWII and RCMP members stepped up to from Provost Companies
5)  By Royal decree, they are officially a "Regiment of Dragoons," which gives them the right to carry battle honours (which they do - including the Northwest Rebellions, the Boer War and both World Wars)
6)  They serve in a counter-intelligence and national security role, most notably in wartime
7)  The NWMP/RNWMP/RCMP have been involved in every conflict in which Canada has engaged since their formation and their members continue to serve on military operations today

The RCMP has earned it's place on the fourth corner of the National War Memorial and they are veterans.

I'd have to say that at least half the people in this country are quite ignorant of its own history - this included.  I'd also go so far as to say that perhaps people don't learn enough Canadian military history in recruit training - I want to say we had exactly 90 minutes of it during my Recruit training in 1988...though we did get little vignettes a 2-4 times a week of various VC and other bravery award winners through their medal citations. 

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Online mariomike

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #622 on: August 01, 2018, 11:24:03 »
vs a CAF member who, while also serving their country, may have never left the safety/confines of Canada itself? ???

Looks like finishing BMQ is sufficient in some ( all? ) provinces,

"2. A member of the Canadian Armed Forces, Regular or Reserves, who successfully completed basic training."
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/transportation/funding-engagement-permits/vets-licence-plate-survey

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #623 on: August 01, 2018, 13:31:16 »
Looks like finishing BMQ is sufficient in some ( all? ) provinces,

"2. A member of the Canadian Armed Forces, Regular or Reserves, who successfully completed basic training."
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/transportation/funding-engagement-permits/vets-licence-plate-survey

Yup.  All the more reason this is a mountain made from a molehill...

Funny thought: “Upset Veteran” hands back license, gets stopped by a Mountie for some traffic infraction, then tries to influence the Mountie with an “I’m a veteran, can you help me out?”  Then the Mountie replies with, “I know that. Your DL’s file shows you returned the plate, I’m assuming because you disagreed with Mounties being considered veterans.  Sorry, I’m not in a position to apply leniency - you’ll have to make your case in traffic court.  Here’s your ticket. Have a nice day.”

;D

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
« Reply #624 on: August 01, 2018, 14:24:46 »
Smash out basic training on weekends, quit, then shop around for some sweet discounts.



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