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The Quartermaster's Stores => Uniforms => Topic started by: Awesomedude on October 16, 2014, 10:01:37

Title: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: Awesomedude on October 16, 2014, 10:01:37
There is a policy locally that gloves are mandatory if you are wearing a winter headdress

Is this policy written down anywhere? is this perhaps a CAF policy in a canforgen? I am having trouble finding it in the CF Dress instructions. I swear I read this somewhere and didn't think it was a unit level policy.
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque manditory
Post by: LunchMeat on October 16, 2014, 10:09:33
I've also heard "If it's cold enough to wear your parka, you have to wear a toque"
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque manditory
Post by: DAA on October 16, 2014, 10:13:52
There is a policy locally that gloves are mandatory if you are wearing a winter headdress

Is this policy written down anywhere? is this perhaps a CAF policy in a canforgen? I am having trouble finding it in the CF Dress instructions. I swear I read this somewhere and didn't think it was a unit level policy.

Sect 2, para 21.e.  -  Gloves, Leather, Black.  Gloves leather, black are worn when ordered or as required during cold weather.

In most instances, when Winter Dress is in effect, local orders will mandate the wearing of gloves with outerwear.

Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque manditory
Post by: Lightguns on October 16, 2014, 10:24:32
It remains the funniest thing in winter to see some young soldier walking down the sidewalk wearing touque and no gloves or coat.  The winter cold provides it own jacking up!
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque manditory
Post by: Awesomedude on October 16, 2014, 10:35:21
I agree that it might look silly,

But, toque, coat no gloves... are you out of dress?
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque manditory
Post by: Fishbone Jones on October 16, 2014, 10:37:20
 :nod:
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque manditory
Post by: Tcm621 on October 16, 2014, 10:47:49
Iaw with dress regs, gloves are optional with all orders of dress except parkas, and I believe gabardine.  I have yet to see local policy, or any policy for that matter, linking toques and gloves. It seems to be one of those "rules" everyone knows but no one knows where it came from. Typically the answer given is "local unit X policy" but when you look it up, the policy is copy and pasted from dress regs.

Bottom line, there is no requirement to wear gloves with a toque or vice versa barring a specific order. It is incumbent on all parties to read local dress regs and act accordingly.
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque manditory
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 16, 2014, 14:55:32
Depends on the local Base/Wing Dress Instructions.  Example, Stadacona or the dockyard, IIRC this "gloves = hat as well/vice versa" rule was in the DIs.  Navy folks also couldn't wear their NCD jackets with hat and gloves, they had to wear the black winter jacket.

Check your Base/Wing DIN site for the ones that apply to you.
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: Tcm621 on October 16, 2014, 17:58:46
Depends on the local Base/Wing Dress Instructions.  Example, Stadacona or the dockyard, IIRC this "gloves = hat as well/vice versa" rule was in the DIs.  Navy folks also couldn't wear their NCD jackets with hat and gloves, they had to wear the black winter jacket.

Check your Base/Wing DIN site for the ones that apply to you.
I obviously can't speak for every base and local dress policy changes fairly often. That's why reading the policy is so important. I have found navy bases to be really good at keeping dress policy up to date.
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: DAA on October 16, 2014, 18:04:23
I can remember back in the late 80's early 90's heading over to the Mess Hall for lunch during the winter.  Turning the corner and going through the front door, only to find the Base CWO standing there, note pad in hand.  "Where's your gloves and why aren't you wearing them?"     :o
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: GnyHwy on October 16, 2014, 18:22:42
Wear whatever the RSM is wearing and you can't go wrong.  Quit wasting your time thinking and trying to change policy.  Become an RSM and then change it.
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque manditory
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 16, 2014, 18:41:37
It remains the funniest thing in winter to see some young soldier walking down the sidewalk wearing touque and no gloves or coat.  The winter cold provides it own jacking up!

I just wear my beret during the winter so I can pretend it's still summer!  If you say it enough times it has to be true! Right?   ;D

Besides, our toques look like the one my grandmother knitted me when I was a small boy.... looking good is half the battle  ;D

In all serious though GnyHwy provides the best response to your dilemma, just wear what the RSM wears and you can't go wrong.  If you still don't like it, wait until you become the RSM and change it.
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: Tcm621 on October 16, 2014, 19:34:54
Wear whatever the RSM is wearing and you can't go wrong.  Quit wasting your time thinking and trying to change policy.  Become an RSM and then change it.
My point wasn't about changing policy, it was about following policy. Or more specifically enforcing policy, not what you think is policy. If you are in a position to demand a certain dress, take 10 minutes and update the policy.

Why get upset because some troop has actually taken the time to read orders (like he is supposed to) and brings it up? I've never understood that. I like to be right as much or more than the next guy but if you can prove you are right, I've learned something and can either adjust my future actions or take the appropriate steps to correct the error.

In today's military, every no hook private has immediate access to every policy or regulation. If you are in a position to enforce said policy, know it. If you don't, that private might and be willing to stand behind it, forcing everyone into a situation they would rather avoid.
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: GnyHwy on October 17, 2014, 21:19:26
You're not going to find the policy.  The policy can change daily.  It cannot be a CAF policy, simply because we have far too many different climates.  What is good for Esquimalt certainly wouldn't be good for Winnipeg and what is good for southern Ontario won't be good for Gagetown and so on...

If it is cold enough to warrant a toque, then it is cold enough to wear gloves.

It is also a personality thing.  Some RSMs are extremely sticky and have multiple pet peeves and some others don't put much weight on it.  It's not something you can control or predict, and it's not worth worrying about.

If you get crap for your dress, say yes Sir and move on; and don't repeat the mistake.

Or more specifically enforcing policy, not what you think is policy.


That will always be a Comd's prerogative, enforced by the RSM.  He can have you wearing rubber gumbies, snowshoes and a helmet if he wants.

This reminds of this. http://www.duffelblog.com/2013/05/sergeant-major-chandler-you-know-what-frig-it-everyones-gonna-wear-three-reflective-belts-during-pt/#ixzz3GS2Gw5lF (http://www.duffelblog.com/2013/05/sergeant-major-chandler-you-know-what-frig-it-everyones-gonna-wear-three-reflective-belts-during-pt/#ixzz3GS2Gw5lF)

 
Quote
The following is an opinion piece by Sergeant Major of the Army Raymond F. Chandler III.

You know what soldiers? I’m sick and tired of this crap.

You want to keep complaining about having to wear reflective belts? You don’t like that you have to wear the thing in Afghanistan in the middle of a combat zone? It’s not ‘cool’ to have to put that on your uniform, you say.

Well, you know what? Screw it. Everyone’s going to wear three of the flippin’ things at all times.

Yeah, you heard me. Three.

Goddamn it, these things are saving your worthless little lives.

Oh, how are you supposed to wear three reflective belts, you ask. Well, first off, I’m a Sergeant Major, so I don’t need to answer any of your questions. Second, how about you figure that stuff out yourselves? You can adapt on the battlefield, now you need to adapt with a reflective piece of plastic that keeps you from getting flattened like a goddamn pancake when a Humvee rolls by.

Don’t think it could happen? Think again.

Bagram Air Field, 2004. Soldiers just walking around, lollygagging, thinking they’re back on the block. BOOM. No reflective belt. Dead. Saw it happen, it was terrible. But you know what, with his last dying breath, that soldier told me, “Sergeant Major, if only I had been wearing my reflective belt, I would be alive. Please tell my mother I—, no, tell the other soldiers they need to be safe with reflective belts on at all times.”

Well, I’m granting that dying wish right now. You troops are going to wear your reflective belts everywhere. I don’t care whether you are doing PT, in your dress uniform, or out at the bar drinking and trying to score some late-night action, you’re going to have “three of your PPE” [personal protective equipment] around your bodies at all times.

Ok, good,  you want to keep complaining?

We’re wearing four of the goddamn things. I can go all day, soldiers. Don’t push me. If they can’t see our 0500 PT formation from the flipping Space Station, that’s a no-go. Hooah?

If I keep hearing complaints or seeing any more bull crap about how you don’t like your reflective belt — so help me. If you like the Multicam uniform, you just wait until me and the General testify before congress for the new and improved Multireflect uniform.

Don’t make me do it, soldiers.

Right now, go grab your reflective belts, and put them on. You’ll thank me later.

You heard me. Five of them.
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: Tcm621 on October 17, 2014, 22:49:26
There is normally a written dress policy for every level above the unit level. I have found it at every base and unit I have been in. It's typically copy and pasted from the dress manual but occasionally some things are changed.  It is one of the things I always check upon posting to a new area. Typically it can be found as a separate document on the base CWO webpage or it may be in standing orders. Yes, I am the nerd who actually reads that stuff.
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 18, 2014, 00:30:44
I'm pretty sure that this issue qualifies as one of those 'Rich North' problems, right?  ;D
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: Towards_the_gap on October 18, 2014, 10:22:55
I wonder if ISIS/ISIL/ISLAMIC STATE/BOGEYMEN DU JOUR have their equivalent of an Int Analyst (mujahid of the crystal ball???) persuing this forum, and reporting back to his boss that 'I don't think we have to worry about these frozen infidels, they are too busy yelling at each other about when it is appropriate to wear gloves'.

Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: George Wallace on October 18, 2014, 10:42:59
I wonder if ISIS/ISIL/ISLAMIC STATE/BOGEYMEN DU JOUR have their equivalent of an Int Analyst (mujahid of the crystal ball???) persuing this forum, and reporting back to his boss that 'I don't think we have to worry about these frozen infidels, they are too busy yelling at each other about when it is appropriate to wear gloves'.

They have their own "Dress and Deportment" problems.  Is it beards on or beards off?  Is it masked face or unmasked?  Does this Black match my eyes?
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque manditory
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 18, 2014, 21:15:25
Besides, our toques look like the one my grandmother knitted me when I was a small boy.... looking good is half the battle  ;D

Then you should come over to the RCAF.  We just got issued new toques/balaclavas/neck gaiters...all nice pieces of kit.  AFAIK, the new issue stuff is for wear in op dress, with the old style still the DEU toque.

But, the new toque sure is comfy.  Is OVOTP still open this FY?   ;D
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: milnews.ca on November 06, 2014, 14:56:00
They have their own "Dress and Deportment" problems.  Is it beards on or beards off?  Is it masked face or unmasked?  Does this Black match my eyes heart?
FTFY
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: kratz on November 06, 2014, 16:45:02
I can remember back in the late 80's early 90's heading over to the Mess Hall for lunch during the winter.  Turning the corner and going through the front door, only to find the Base CWO standing there, note pad in hand.  "Where's your gloves and why aren't you wearing them?"     :o

The RCN Chiefs will coordinate a morning, lunch or secure and still do the same thing
at all main points are the Formation, a few times each year.
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: Jarnhamar on November 06, 2014, 16:59:01
I don't want to blow anyones mind but in Petawawa you can wear a toque and gloves with no jacket. Or just a toque, no gloves or jacket.

You can even wear.......your goretext rain jacket with snug pack softie underneath in the winter.
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: dapaterson on November 06, 2014, 17:23:23
Who are you and what have you done to The RCR?
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: Target Up on November 06, 2014, 20:00:54
There were some people from (insert name of non existent unit from an invisible building here ) using the shoot house in Pet last week.  I understand they're special, but these guys deserved their own Olympics kind of special.  Not one looked like any other one, and apparently the hardest part of selection for these dudes is passing the "not able to take a step without your hands stuffed in your pockets" test.  I'm no parade square soldier for sure, but these people had scruffy down to an art form, and those were just the women, the dudes were much worse.  Not in my day, harrumph!
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: Monsoon on November 06, 2014, 20:52:51
Not one looked like any other one, and apparently the hardest part of selection for these dudes is passing the "not able to take a step without your hands stuffed in your pockets" test.  I'm no parade square soldier for sure, but these people had scruffy down to an art form, and those were just the women, the dudes were much worse.
And yet, surprisingly good at shooting things. Clearly their priorities aren't in the right place.
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: Jarnhamar on November 06, 2014, 21:18:50
**removed for freedom
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: Hurricane on November 09, 2014, 10:42:52
There were some people from (insert name of non existent unit from an invisible building here ) using the shoot house in Pet last week.  I understand they're special, but these guys deserved their own Olympics kind of special.  Not one looked like any other one, and apparently the hardest part of selection for these dudes is passing the "not able to take a step without your hands stuffed in your pockets" test.  I'm no parade square soldier for sure, but these people had scruffy down to an art form, and those were just the women, the dudes were much worse.  Not in my day, harrumph!

Day 1 of clearing into a SOF unit:

"YOU WHY ARNT YOUR HANDS IN YOUR POCKETS!, GET THAT DAMN HEAD DRESS OFF!, and PUT YOUR OAKLEYS ON YOUR HEAD! NO NOT ON YOUR FACE, ON YOUR HEAD!"
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: Sheep Dog AT on November 09, 2014, 14:20:23
Day 1 of clearing into a SOF unit:

"YOU WHY ARNT YOUR HANDS IN YOUR POCKETS!, GET THAT DAMN HEAD DRESS OFF!, and PUT YOUR OAKLEYS ON YOUR HEAD! NO NOT ON YOUR FACE, ON YOUR HEAD!"
.

Not exactly
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: Hurricane on November 09, 2014, 19:12:18
I see we share an alternate sense of humor.
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: Sheep Dog AT on November 09, 2014, 20:29:45
Sorry. Sarcasm free Sunday's.
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: UnwiseCritic on November 09, 2014, 22:22:25
I can remember back in the late 80's early 90's heading over to the Mess Hall for lunch during the winter.  Turning the corner and going through the front door, only to find the Base CWO standing there, note pad in hand.  "Where's your gloves and why aren't you wearing them?"     :o

"Because my ears are cold and my hands are warm, sir." :running:

Seems like a rule, just to be a rule. Another one that comes down from time to time is no rain jackets and toques together. :facepalm:
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: UnwiseCritic on November 09, 2014, 22:28:21
There were some people from (insert name of non existent unit from an invisible building here ) using the shoot house in Pet last week.  I understand they're special, but these guys deserved their own Olympics kind of special.  Not one looked like any other one, and apparently the hardest part of selection for these dudes is passing the "not able to take a step without your hands stuffed in your pockets" test.  I'm no parade square soldier for sure, but these people had scruffy down to an art form, and those were just the women, the dudes were much worse.  Not in my day, harrumph!

But I bet you they were amazing at their jobs and that they shot the $!@# outta that building. And did it better than any shiny boot, hands out of pocket, clean shaven unit out there. Sounds like true professionalism to me.  :nana: haha
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: dapaterson on November 09, 2014, 22:38:54
The hallmark of military professionalism is discipline.  Sometimes that does unfortunately manifest itself in chickenshit ways.  However, at the end of the day, the military is about the controlled use of violence.  Without discipline, there is no control.
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: Gannet on November 09, 2014, 23:41:45
"Because my ears are cold and my hands are warm, sir." :running:

Seems like a rule, just to be a rule. Another one that comes down from time to time is no rain jackets and toques together. :facepalm:

I kept my beret on all last winter because of that one.  Anything heavier than the rain jacket above -15 and I'm boiling to death.
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: MCG on November 10, 2014, 00:08:00
Then you should come over to the RCAF.  We just got issued new toques/balaclavas/neck gaiters...all nice pieces of kit.  AFAIK, the new issue stuff is for wear in op dress, with the old style still the DEU toque.

But, the new toque sure is comfy.  Is OVOTP still open this FY?   ;D
Apparently the Army's old green wool field toque has been replaced by a green version of the new RCAF operational toque.  But, aside from having seen a statement to this effect from the TA, I have not actually seen any sign of a new Army toque.
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: Hamish Seggie on November 10, 2014, 00:08:38
But I bet you they were amazing at their jobs and that they shot the $!@# outta that building. And did it better than any shiny boot, hands out of pocket, clean shaven unit out there. Sounds like true professionalism to me.  :nana: haha

I have no idea who you are but you are coming off as an a@@hat.

Have you any experience with anything other than what you do?

"Because my ears are cold and my hands are warm, sir."

That would have earned you a one way ticket to the Duty Centre for at least 14.

Maybe you should go on listening silence.

Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 10, 2014, 01:51:44
When in Rome...
Title: Re: Wearing gloves with touque mandatory
Post by: UnwiseCritic on November 10, 2014, 08:26:32
I have no idea who you are but you are coming off as an a@@hat.

Have you any experience with anything other than what you do?

That would have earned you a one way ticket to the Duty Centre for at least 14.

Maybe you should go on listening silence.

Tone in conversation is context, since you can't really hear my tone I think you have taken what I said out of context (which is why I added the running and ear tongue thing). It was jokes.And I have had the pleasure of doing some minor taskings with other "units" and they are very professional. It just doesn't manifest itself in the ways of shiny boots and hands in pockets.  Though they always did have polished boots. The pocket thing, not so much.

And of course I would never say that to a Sergeant Major... I listen to them not only because it makes my life easier and keeps me off duty. But they are the authority figure and that's just how the military works. Most of the ones I have met are experienced soldiers, deserve respect (listened to) and have justly earned their position. And will enforce rules because that's their job, even if they don't agree with the rule. Which is fair.