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The Mess => Security and Emergency Services => Topic started by: MarkOttawa on April 05, 2016, 17:17:17

Title: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on April 05, 2016, 17:17:17
Note further links at post based on CP story:

Quote
Our politicians and media largely ignore–unlike their constant focus on military procurements–our mostly silent (civilian) service, to its great detriment. Now the awful facts described in a major government report tabled in February are reported...
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/04/05/mark-collins-canadian-coast-guard-going-down/

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on April 10, 2016, 12:19:32
Toronto Star weighs in:

Rescue Canada’s floundering coast guard: Editorial
The Canadian Coast Guard is in dire straits due to aging ships and understaffing. It's vital that the federal government respond.
http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2016/04/08/rescue-canadas-floundering-coast-guard-editorial.html

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on April 10, 2016, 15:07:12
Lack of funding, a senior management that is more less dysfunctional, a bias against anyone not from the college and coming up the hawsepipe in regards to supporting their career advancement. The management is slowly slitting their own throats in regards to doing little out of their mandate. When you try to get a tasking they make it very difficult, once they even wanted to bill us the entire cost of the ship, when we offered to cover any excess cost like OT and fuel. It was cheaper to hire a charter crew boat. It's not the crews, they love to get out and do new things and go new places. Most of the initiatives you see like diving, swimmer, rescue specialist were driven by the crew members and not the management or senior officers. CCG has some great talent and dedicated crews despite the organization, not because of it.   
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: my72jeep on April 10, 2016, 15:33:25
Wow sounds like every other Canadian Gov. agency.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on April 20, 2016, 17:34:54
38 year-old icebreaker CCGS Pierre Radisson to be modernized--note final para on what is done in the winter:

Quote
ABB Breathes New Life into Canadian Icebreaker

ABB modernization to extend service of 38-year-old Canadian Coast Guard Icebreaker; upgrade includes improved connectivity and eight new drives

ABB will modernize a Canadian Coast Guard icebreaker, installing the latest hardware and software onboard the 38 year old Pierre Radisson. As part of the complete upgrade to the ship’s power distribution system, eight new drives will also be installed. The contract includes the option to modernize the other two Coast Guard ships, Des Groseilliers and Amundsen, both of which have clocked up more than 30 years of service…

Design and supply work is scheduled to begin immediately and installation and commissioning is expected to be finished by June 2017. In winter, the Pierre Radisson breaks ice and escorts ships in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and on the St. Lawrence and Saguenay Rivers. In summer, the ship travels to the Canadian Arctic to escort commercial ships, serve as a primary search and rescue unit and provide support to scientific missions when possible…”
http://www.marinelink.com/news/icebreaker-breathes408440.aspx

Keep ’em going to the half century or something as only that one new one is planned.

Work likely to be done at Davie, Quebec:
http://www.45enord.ca/2015/07/un-contrat-de-16-millions-a-la-davie-pour-moderniser-le-navire-de-la-garde-cotiere-henry-larsen/

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on July 27, 2016, 14:00:31
Davie proposal may still be alive:

Quote
Davie Québec Wants to Build Icebreaker for, Unload Other Vessels on, Canadian Coast Guard, Part 2

Further to this post with lots of detail on the pitch and in which I wrote…
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/03/11/mark-collins-davie-quebec-wants-to-build-icebreaker-for-unload-other-vessels-on-canadian-coast-guard/
 
"…
 The CCG could certainly use a new polar icebreaker before 2022 and the other vessels Davie has been put forward could well be welcome (see the 2013 situation here: “The Poor Canadian Coast Guard, or, Read Our Lips…)…"

it now looks as if the Davie idea may not be dead...
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/07/27/mark-collins-davie-quebec-wants-to-build-icebreaker-for-unload-other-vessels-on-canadian-coast-guard-part-2/

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on July 28, 2016, 12:42:31
What's old is new again

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5533/11720842193_c163c41057_b.jpg)

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ccg-gcc.gc.ca%2Ffolios%2F00790%2Fimages%2Fdfo-photo-631-multimedia-eng.jpg&hash=01f9b57892678fec4792d2d0ee689c04)
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: jmt18325 on July 28, 2016, 15:07:22
I'd be all for leasing icebreakers.  There's no way we can buy enough in time given the timeline.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: CBH99 on August 12, 2016, 17:44:07
http://m.thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/1386349-crew-shortage-ties-up-coast-guard

*I haven't posted a link to a story before, sorry if I didn't do it correctly.


Doesn't seem to be a super urgent matter.  It really does illuminate the contrast between the Canadian Coast Guard and the US Coast Guard in terms of structure, staffing, etc. though.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on August 12, 2016, 18:00:37
Not surprising, we are paying poor wages compared to industry, but then we don't have the ups and downs. If the downturn carries on, this will be self correcting as we won't have to compete for ticketed personal. If even one of the LNG projects on the West Coast goes into production, there will be a severe shortage for the first 10 years. The pilots hire mostly from the Tugs and with 4 docking tugs and possibly 2-3 escort tugs per tanker with 250-360 ships a year, that's a lot of people to maintain that flow.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: dapaterson on August 12, 2016, 20:59:22
In the "Gee, who'd have thought" department, CCG is having trouble finding crews willing to work overtime, since the new pay system has problems with paying them.  Imagine, crews at sea don't have access to the Government of Canada computer network to input their hours for approval by their boss.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/coast-guard-overtime-issues-linked-to-phoenix-1.3718353
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Chris Pook on August 12, 2016, 21:15:37
I sense the nefarious hand of the evil Harper.   >:D

Downsizing the bureaucracy on the Liberal's watch by implementing a change the Civil Service asked for.  Genius. 
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on August 12, 2016, 23:47:24
They should really start putting "we don't drug test" on their job ads.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on August 13, 2016, 16:44:56
In the "Gee, who'd have thought" department, CCG is having trouble finding crews willing to work overtime, since the new pay system has problems with paying them.  Imagine, crews at sea don't have access to the Government of Canada computer network to input their hours for approval by their boss.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/coast-guard-overtime-issues-linked-to-phoenix-1.3718353

The assumption of the software types is everyone has an account and network access.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on April 17, 2017, 23:30:07
a nice article on the 1100 class

http://www.nsnews.com/news/a-ship-for-all-seasons-1.15295925

http://images.glaciermedia.ca/polopoly_fs/1.15298898.1492126537!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_804/laurier-bow.jpg
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Blair Gilmore on May 30, 2017, 20:56:28
Although the Liberal government is promising to finally boost the CCG with some decades in coming spending, they're still making mistakes by cutting programs such as the Dive Team in Richmond, BC. It's the only team of its type in all of Canada and it fills a rescue niche for the Lower Mainland that can't be filled by other services like SAR Techs or civilians. I've added my voice to the growing backlash against the decision, you can read my article here:

http://www.happydiver.space/?p=434
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on May 31, 2017, 11:34:31
I was there at the start of the dive team and I know what it cost the rescue personal to have to sit there and listen to the trapped survivors in the hulls and not being able to respond from before the team started. Starting the dive team was an uphill battle until the Minister became frustrated with the games of management and ordered it to be fully funded. CCG managed to kill the Rescue swimmer program and tried to kill the Rescue Specialist program as well. All 3 programs were started at the grassroots level in Kits base and the Hovercraft by very dedicated individuals who saw the need and envisioned a solution. Meanwhile CCG management was trying to close both Kits and the Hovercraft base because they hated being responsible for inshore SAR and it was a budgetary threat to the big ships. I am not surprised by this move at all.

DFO is also shutting down fish habitat restoration projects and reassigning the personal to other things.

All hail the new regime "Ocean Protection Program" dissent is not tolerated and obedience is required"     
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on June 08, 2017, 20:40:46
Show me some real CCG money--hah!  First a tweet:

Quote
Timothy Choi‏ @TimmyC62
...
Most of them are already 30 years old, being built in the '80s...
https://twitter.com/TimmyC62/status/872939773777674240

Now sailing on forever almost (further links at original):

Quote
Canadian Coast Guard Fleet Modernization Underway

ABB said it will modernize 10 out of 14 Medium Icebreakers and High Endurance Multi Task Canadian Coast Guard ships to extend operational life of the vessels by another 20 years.
 
“For more than 75 years ABB has been working at the cutting edge of icebreaker technology and we are delighted to bring this expertise to these Canadian Coast Guard ships,” said Jyri Jusslin, Senior Vice President of ABB Global Marine & Ports Service. “We have a long successful track record of working with both AC and DC systems and we are delighted the Canadian Coast Guard recognizes ABB as a reliable partner.”
 
Design and work supply on first of the 10 vessels, CCGS Pierre Radisson, is already underway and will be completed in July 2017. From then on the remaining nine vessels will be completed in following order: CCGS Ann Harvey (2018), CCGS Des Groseilliers (2018), CCGS Sir William Alexander (2018), CCGS Martha L. Black (2018), CCGS Henry Larsen (2019), CCGS Edward Cornwallis (2019), CCGS Sir Wilfrid Laurier (2020), CCGS George R. Pearkes (2020), CCGS Amundsen (2020).
 
Medium Icebreakers and High Endurance Multi Task Vessels typically work year round, performing search and rescue, maritime navigational aids, ice breaking, oceanographic studies, patrol and protection of Canada coastline. In winter, the vessels are assigned to icebreaking and ship escort operations at Canadian waters, St. Lawrence Seaway and Great Lakes. Every summer CCGS Amundsen is charted by a scientific consortium and makes her way to the Canadian Arctic to conduct a wide variety of scientific missions. While in the Arctic, the vessels also serve as a primary search and rescue unit and provides support to scientific missions when possible...
https://www.marinelink.com/news/modernization-canadian426174

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: jmt18325 on June 08, 2017, 21:05:00
For the work they do, they don't really need cutting edge technology.  They do need reliability.  Hopefully in another decade that won't be such a problem for them.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on June 08, 2017, 21:35:45
List of CCG vessels--note age of larger ones;
http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/Fleet/Search?todo=all#results

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: jmt18325 on June 09, 2017, 00:01:19
No question, they're old.  If we can get 20 more years out of some of them, I think that's great.  It gives us time to replace the ones that we can't get 20 years out of.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on June 09, 2017, 08:29:17
For the work they do, they don't really need cutting edge technology.  They do need reliability.  Hopefully in another decade that won't be such a problem for them.

What makes you think those things are mutually exclusive?

Cutting edge technology in modern shipping is reliability.

The whole industry is very focused on reducing downtime and reducing maintenance costs.

Modern technologies and systems reduce crewing costs and simplify operations.

Unfortunately, the coast guard as an organization does not have the knowledge or skill base to operate and maintain a modern ship at the moment, there would be a very steep and sudden learning curve for any crew assigned to a modern boat.

It's already been an issue with some of their new smaller boats.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Navy_Pete on June 09, 2017, 11:11:11
What makes you think those things are mutually exclusive?

Cutting edge technology in modern shipping is reliability.

The whole industry is very focused on reducing downtime and reducing maintenance costs.

Modern technologies and systems reduce crewing costs and simplify operations.

Unfortunately, the coast guard as an organization does not have the knowledge or skill base to operate and maintain a modern ship at the moment, there would be a very steep and sudden learning curve for any crew assigned to a modern boat.

It's already been an issue with some of their new smaller boats.

One example is the onboard equipment health monitoring packages (EHM) that phone home with data packets to the OEM daily.  They have teams of experts monitoring for trends etc and all the operational data lets them build extensive databases to help predict problems before they come up.  They can do the same with vibration analysis and other good tools.

So you'll get emails like 'check cylinder A4 on your DG as it's been starting to run hotter at low loads' and pick up potential issues that are starting to drift within the normal range before it gets to a problem.  This is harder to do looking at logs with a once an hour snapshot, and you tend to not catch things until they are outside of normal.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on September 06, 2017, 18:19:27
New CCG icebreaker to be Norwegian design, haven't seen the gov't mention that (by same company, owned by Fincantieri, that did RCN A/OPS):

Quote
Vard Marine has decades of experience with the design of icebreakers and ice-capable ships for operations in the Arctic, Antarctic, and many sub-polar areas of the world. Our extensive database includes full and model scale performance information on our own designs, vessels built by the Vard Group, and many other icebreakers. We conduct in-house and contract research into key aspects of these ship types, including hull form, propulsion plant configurations, structural design, and winterization. Vard Marine has provided assistance to the development of the new IMO Polar Code, and continues to provide guidance to owners, operators and other stakeholders on how to implement regulatory requirements...

he VARD 9 206 is a Polar Icebreaker designed to be the flagship vessel for the Canadian Coast Guard, with a multi-mission capability. The ship can break up to 2.5m of level ice, and has excellent manoeuvrability in even heavy ice conditions. Ship systems are designed to provide very high levels of operational availability by design and through equipment selection. The mission systems are configured to allow for operations in extreme weather conditions while minimizing crew and mission personnel exposure. Vard Marine worked with the designated shipyard for this project to include numerous design for production features.

(https://vardmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/VARD-9-series_icebreakers_image2-300x200.jpg)

The VARD 7 100i was developed as the basis for the Royal Canadian Navy’s new fleet of Arctic Offshore Patrol Ships. This design balances icegoing and open-water performance requirements to fulfill the Navy’s missions around the world’s longest coastline...

(https://vardmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/VARD-9-series_icebreakers_image3-300x200.jpg)

https://vardmarine.com/vessel-design-portfolio/specialized-vessels/ice-breakers/

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on September 06, 2017, 18:41:16
Seaspan nicely buries Vard Marine design of new icebreaker in caption at image here--"* Reproduced by permission of Canadian Coast Guard and VARD Marine":
https://www.seaspan.com/building

(https://www.seaspan.com/wp-content/uploads/128-stbd.png)

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on September 06, 2017, 18:57:24
Imagine how much money would be saved, and how much sooner delivery, if we just bought new CCG icebreaker direct from VARD Marine!  But those jobs! jobs! jobs! Fie on both Conservatives and Liberals.

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: George Wallace on September 06, 2017, 19:30:29
Seaspan nicely buries Vard Marine design of new icebreaker in caption at image here--"* Reproduced by permission of Canadian Coast Guard and VARD Marine":
https://www.seaspan.com/building

(https://www.seaspan.com/wp-content/uploads/128-stbd.png)

Mark
Ottawa

I doubt the Trudeau Liberals will permit a CCGS to be named after a Conservative PM.   [:p
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on September 06, 2017, 19:47:06
Imagine how much money would be saved, and how much sooner delivery, if we just bought new CCG icebreaker direct from VARD Marine!  But those jobs! jobs! jobs! Fie on both Conservatives and Liberals.

Mark
Ottawa

Actually, Mark: Not possible.

First of all, VARD Marine is an engineering and naval architecture company. They design the ships and develop the detailed building plans, but they don't have a shipyard and don't build anything themselves.

Second, VARD marine has developed very few design themselves. About 75% of their portfolio is basically the plans and designs of STX Marine Canada, of Vancouver, that they acquired when they bought them and Kraevner out. The actual ice breaker designs and the patrol vessels (from the Kiwi 85 m. OPV of project protector, to the Roislin and Beckett of the Irish naval Service, for instance, are all Canadian designs of STX).

As for the Norwegian yards that built some of those ships, they actually got most of the hulls and superstructure built in Polish shipyard to save money. Norway yards only did the fitting out and finishing work.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on September 06, 2017, 20:33:25
Oldgateboatdriver:

Quote
...
As for the Norwegian yards that built some of those ships, they actually got most of the hulls and superstructure built in Polish shipyard to save money. Norway yards only did the fitting out and finishing work.

So if we just contracted VARD Marine to deliver the ship, most metal-bashing done in Romania (not Poland https://vardmarine.com/about-vard-marine/corporate-information/ ), surely cheaper and faster than Seaspan?

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on September 06, 2017, 22:39:39
First of all, VARD Marine is an engineering and naval architecture company. They design the ships and develop the detailed building plans, but they don't have a shipyard and don't build anything themselves.

To be clear, you're referring to Vards operations in Canada?

As Vard quite definitely operates a number of shipyards, they do excellent work.

International customers buying at their Norwegian yards is a testament to the trade offs between price and quality in modern ship building.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Chris Pook on September 06, 2017, 23:07:45
http://www.vard.com/products/pages/shipbuilding.aspx

Langsten was where the Svalbard was built.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on September 06, 2017, 23:18:16
Yes, Not a Sig Op, I am referring to VARD Marine's Canadian subsidiary, which is the one that is doing the work with Seaspan on the design for various ships of the Shipbuilding Strategy and I believe also helped with the design work on the AOPS.

That division of Fincantierri, even though under the VARD umbrella is an engineering and marine architecture outfit. It was born of the acquisition of STX Marine, with its patrol vessels and ice breakers designs, by Kraevner, first, then by VARD.

The actual shipyards of VARD and VARD itself, before acquiring this book of designs from Kraevner, was concentrating and almost exclusively into construction of oil rig support vessels and other small specialized oil exploration vessels.

When the most famous products on VARD's list of "models" were built, be it the Svalbard or the Nordkapp for ice breaking ships, or the New Zealand's Wellington and Otago OPV, or the Irish naval Service's Beckett class or Roisin class vessels, it was either STX Marine or Kraevner working on their own behalf that were doing the design work. VARD just bought them out to acquire the rights to the designs.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on September 07, 2017, 11:49:16
Oldgateboatdriver: Indeed--a tweet to me from Aker Arctic:
https://twitter.com/AkerArctic/status/905735052516044802

Quote
@AkerArctic
Interesting how a project that began as a Canadian-Finnish co-operation under STX ended up as a "Norwegian design"...

Second tweet from Aker Arctic:
https://twitter.com/AkerArctic/status/905807608304553984

Quote
@AkerArctic
No problem. VARD inherited the project from STX Canada Marine led team where we were responsible for icebreaking hull form, propulsion etc.

Mark
Ottawa

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on October 03, 2017, 12:01:40
Seaspan late for CCG, will delay RCN JSS, CCG icebreaker:
Quote
Seaspan holds open house to show off new vessel

 Members of the public were able to get up close in North Vancouver to Canada’s nearly complete first offshore fisheries science vessel which will come to Esquimalt for its final testing.

More than 3,300 people toured Seaspan’s Vancouver Shipyards’ open house on Sunday to see what taxpayers are buying. In 2011, the federal government announced that Seaspan would be negotiating contracts worth up to $8 billion to build non-combat ships for the navy and Canadian Coast Guard.

The first of three science vessels will likely be launched in early December at Vancouver Shipyards. It is not yet know when it will be towed to Seaspan-owned Victoria Shipyards, based in Esquimalt, for preparation to hand over to the federal government.

It was initially expected to be delivered this year but now that will not take place until 2018 [emphasis added].

Two other science vessels are also under construction in North Vancouver. They are to be ready in 2019.

It was learned last month that federal officials are taking a fresh look at the budgets and construction schedules for two new navy resupply vessels and for Canada’s planned new polar icebreaker, also to be built in North Vancouver.

This review is being carried out because the three science vessels are arriving later than originally planned [emphasis added]...
http://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/seaspan-holds-open-house-to-show-off-new-vessel-1.23052733

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on October 03, 2017, 12:22:04
I went to the open house, it was a great time. The First OFSV is almost ready for launching, Hull #2 & 3 are moving along and the people say they have picked up some time from lessons learned. The actual yard was finished around Oct 2014, the design when delivered to the shipyard was badly flawed and required redesigning, who's fault was that? Also someone should ask, "Why have so many government designs been top heavy and require remedial work after the fact?"
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: jmt18325 on October 03, 2017, 12:26:41
Any word when the OOSV might start?  The yard is supposed to be capable of building 4 ships at a time.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on October 03, 2017, 12:56:42
Also someone should ask, "Why have so many government designs been top heavy and require remedial work after the fact?"

Your answer is in your question, Colin: What else would the government of Canada design but something top-heavy? It's in their very nature to be top-heavy in everything they do.  ;D
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on October 03, 2017, 14:56:54
Note this from DFO on CCG vessels from FY 2015-16 "Report on Plans and Priorities":

Quote
...
Offshore Fisheries Science Vessels
...
Design contract completion: February 2012
Contract Award for Construction Engineering: February 2013
Contract Award for Construction: 2014-15
First two vessels to be delivered: 2016-17 [now first 2018]
Delivery of final Offshore Fisheries Science Vessel: 2016-17 [other two now 2019]
...
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2015-16/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html#s1.2

But 2016-17 and 2017-18 Reports do not even cover OFSVs:
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2016-17/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2017-18/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html

Hmmm.

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on October 03, 2017, 15:09:40
Hmmm Irving took 3 years to build the first Hero Class, about the same for the OFSVs, which will launch the first ones shortly. Seem according to the webpage that the construction contract for the Science vessel is not yet awarded.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on October 07, 2017, 12:39:38
Fifty-four year old CCGS Hudson can't even get refit done properly in Canada--for shame, how old must the fleet get?  Note last sentence in quote:

Quote
Why Ottawa yanked a Coast Guard ship out of $4M refit
Marine research vessel Hudson towed from Hamilton, Ont., shipyard Friday with repairs unfinished

 The Government of Canada is pulling the plug on the much-delayed refit of the venerable Canadian Coast Guard Ship Hudson. CBC News has learned the Coast Guard towed the Hudson out of an Ontario shipyard Friday with the $4-million refit unfinished.

    $4M Canadian Coast Guard ship refit months behind schedule

The ocean science research ship arrived at Heddle Marine in Hamilton, Ont., in December 2016 for maintenance work that was supposed to be completed in May.

The Coast Guard won't say what went wrong and can't say when the ship will be back in service.
Towed to Burlington

"The Canadian Coast Guard and Public Services and Procurement Canada have worked closely with Heddle Marine to manage delays in the scheduled maintenance of the CCGS Hudson, and to bring her back into service in a reasonable time frame.

"Despite those efforts, the work has not been completed," spokesperson Vance Chow said in an emailed response to questions from CBC News.

On Friday, the 91-metre ship was towed across Hamilton Harbour to the Canada Centre for Inland Waters — a federal facility in Burlington — "to await the completion of the maintenance work required before she can return to service."

The Coast Guard says new timelines for the ship's return to service are currently under review.

The refit included overhauling the superstructure and masts, blasting and recoating the hull, replacing steel and repairing the rudder.
Refit future uncertain

When CBC News revealed the refit delays in August, the company said it had been instructed by the Coast Guard not to discuss the situation.

Heddle Marine spokesperson Shaun Padulo emailed a short statement in response to CBC News inquiries on Friday about the end of the refit.

"Although there were a number of challenges faced during the dry docking of the CCGS Hudson which led to delays in the completion of the work, Canada has accepted all of the completed work," Padulo wrote.

The Coast Guard has not responded to a request to explain the nature of the refit delay, how much work remains on the refit or who will pay.

The delay has already forced the cancellation of scientific cruises scheduled for the storied Hudson, which is Canada's premier marine research vessel. The 54-year-old workhorse was supposed to be replaced several years ago, but that too has been delayed.

(https://i.cbc.ca/1.4266141.1503968140!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/original_620/hudson.jpg)

https://milnet.ca/forums/index.php?action=post;topic=122642.25;last_msg=1505263

"The 54-year-old workhorse was supposed to be replaced several years ago, but that too has been delayed".  Both Harper and Trudeau governments have failed terribly to deal with the CCG's needs.

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on October 07, 2017, 13:59:01
CCGS Hudson to be replaced by Seaspan-built OOSV--GOOD LUCK with DFO timeline:

Quote
Departmental Plan 2017-18...

Supplementary information tables
Status report on transformational and Major Crown Projects
Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel


Description: The Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel project will acquire a replacement vessel for the Canadian Coast Guard's largest science vessel, the Canadian Coast Guard Ship (CCGS) Hudson. This vessel was built in 1963 and its replacement is critical to fulfilment of the Department's science mandate as well as mandates of other government departments and agencies. The vessel currently operates on the east coast of Canada...

November 2015 - Contract award for construction engineering;
2018 - Contract award for shipbuilding; and
2020 - Tentative delivery of Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel.

...The Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel project was initially approved in July 2008 at a total estimated cost of $108.9 million for the procurement of one vessel. In 2009, Treasury Board authorized a transfer of $35.5 million from the Offshore Fisheries Science Vessels project to the Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel project in light of revised funding profiles to procure these vessels. As a result, the Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel project currently has a revised total estimated cost of $144.4 million (under review).

To date, Treasury Board has granted $73.4 million to the project for the definition phase, including construction engineering
[emphasis added]...
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2017-18/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html

CCGS Hudson details:
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ccg-gcc.gc.ca%2Ffolios%2F00790%2Fimages%2Fdfo-photo-605-multimedia-eng.jpg&hash=adcf3e948e1bf10ccb0bee118d3ef092)
http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/Fleet/Vessel?vessel_id=71

New OOSV image:

(https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/images/nhso-oosv.png)
https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/projets-projects-eng.html?wbdisable=true#s9

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on October 07, 2017, 14:13:54
Seaspan page on vessels for CCG, plus RCN JSS--OPV/MEMTV are sometime middle next decade with luck, see end of the post:

Quote
(https://www.seaspan.com/wp-content/uploads/NSS-Rendering-Next-Generation-800x452.png)
https://www.seaspan.com/building

Seaspan president speaking 2015 (scroll down):

Quote
...It is only after the Polar [icebreaker] project that we get into a true production line with up to five Medium Endurance Multi-Tasked vessels and up to five Offshore Patrol Vessels...
http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/nouvelles-news/2015-06-12-eng.html

DFO 2017-18 Plan:

Quote
...
2024- Delivery of Polar Icebreaker [SURE]
...
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2017-18/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on October 08, 2017, 14:56:43
If anything like this happens (Congress and money) USCG could be a lot smarter than our shipbuilding (only one new icebreaker now planned):

Quote
US icebreaker investment could bring 2 bn windfall to Finland
The US is planning to acquire several new icebreakers for its Arctic fleet. Although rules prevent it from importing the ships directly, the Finns are counting on US manufacturers needing plenty of expert consultation and parts.

As its Polar-class icebreakers reach the end of their effective lifetimes, the United States is looking to quickly build a new fleet of heavy icebreakers. The state of Finland and over a dozen private Finnish companies are hoping the investment will be profitable for them as well, as suppliers and designers. A campaign is underway to convince the Americans to employ their services.

The US plan at present is to build three heavy and three medium polar icebreakers, with more built at a future date. The total cost of the first phase of the investment is estimated to rise to 4 billion euros.

The US has a law that prohibits the Coast Guard and Navy from buying certain vessels from foreign countries. The plan is to build each of the new high-tech ships at a single port somewhere in the United States, but it is also clear that the US will need help in this process.

Another law says that 51 percent of the vessel's parts must be made domestically, leaving 49 percent of the equipment, motors and design work free to be imported.

"If Finland were to win the entire share, it would be a deal worth two billion euros," says Ulla Lainio, an expert at Finland's export trade promoter Finpro, who is responsible for the organisation's maritime and offshore growth programmes.
"We've got a good chance"

Tero Vauraste from the state-owned polar vessel service Arctia says Finland has a good chance to finally break into the US icebreaker market with this latest development.

"The US icebreaking capacity is nowhere near its requirements. Finland, on the other hand, is number one in the field. We have expertise in the entire chain of services: from design to implementation to maintenance and repair," he says.

Next year's US budget is currently being wrangled over in Washington, and decisions on appropriations will be soon forthcoming. Over 20 Finnish firms – including leading systems providers and machine shops – have been lobbying for a piece of the pie...

The initial schedule has laid out that the first new US icebreaker be ready for action in 2023. This means that in order to leave enough time for the engines and speciality parts to be manufactured, procurement should start by the end of 2019 at the latest.

After the first ship is completed, the other two should be taken into use in 2025 and 2026...
https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/us_icebreaker_investment_could_bring_2_bn_windfall_to_finland/9872182
 

2023 would be before new CCG Seaspan icebreaker, supposedly to be delivered 2024:
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2017-18/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html

Mark
Ottawa

Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on October 08, 2017, 15:17:25
It's good that they're getting ships, now they just need a crew to put on them...

http://vocm.com/news/coast-guard-confirms-some-ships-docked-due-to-phoenix-pay-issues/
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on October 10, 2017, 12:12:10
CCGS Hudson to be replaced by Seaspan-built OOSV--GOOD LUCK with DFO timeline:

CCGS Hudson details:
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ccg-gcc.gc.ca%2Ffolios%2F00790%2Fimages%2Fdfo-photo-605-multimedia-eng.jpg&hash=adcf3e948e1bf10ccb0bee118d3ef092)
http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/Fleet/Vessel?vessel_id=71

New OOSV image:

(https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/images/nhso-oosv.png)
https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/projets-projects-eng.html?wbdisable=true#s9

Mark
Ottawa

Not sure why they are showing the Tully which has been in service for years and has a good name for herself. Unlike the Sinclair which was an utter dog http://www.nauticapedia.ca/dbase/Query/Shiplist4.php?&name=James%20Sinclair%20%28F.P.V.%29&id=24974
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on October 18, 2017, 14:21:24
Chantier Davie pitches it Aiviq icebreaker for CCG on twitter:
https://twitter.com/chantierdavie/status/918565826650890240

Quote
@chantierdavie

AIVIQ is a modern, powerful and highly affordable polar icebreaker which is immediately available for the Canadian Coast Guard #cdnpoli

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DL9mrYzXUAEjt11.jpg)

November 2016:

Quote
Davie Québec Actually Going to Supply Some Icebreakers for Coast Guard?
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/11/18/mark-collins-davie-quebec-actually-going-to-supply-some-icebreakers-for-coast-guard/

Mark
Ottawa

Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 18, 2017, 14:52:14
Chantier Davie pitches it Aiviq icebreaker for CCG on twitter:
https://twitter.com/chantierdavie/status/918565826650890240

November 2016:

Mark
Ottawa

But how will that help the Prime Minister provide more support to Quebec? ;)
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on October 18, 2017, 15:16:52
Slightly bigger and more ice capable than an AOP's Not opposed to this as a supplementary Ice Breaker/Rescue ship to the CCG. Not sure she would be good for buoy tending.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiviq
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on October 18, 2017, 15:52:16
She's an anchor handling and supply ship for oil platforms. As such, she has two large cranes with high ratings, a good working deck aft and cargo holds for chains, anchors and all other associated paraphernalia within reach of those cranes. If you're set up to drop, move or recover oil platforms anchors in very specific locations, seems like a pretty reasonable set up for buoy work to me.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on October 19, 2017, 11:47:00
Generally buoy work done over the side rather than the rear, plus her draft is a good 10' more than a 1100, buoy work often means being close in to hazards. She be good at deep sea ODAS's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB6XfEfwJHE
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on October 25, 2017, 22:41:12
C'mon man! #200M per year to keep old vessels afloat, nothing for new ships:

Quote
Liberals promise new funds for cash-strapped coast guard, fisheries department
'Operating aging vessels is challenging, as older ships break down more frequently and cost more to repair'

The Trudeau government has promised an infusion of much-needed cash for the Canadian Coast Guard and federal Fisheries Department, which documents show have suffered from years of chronic underfunding.

The question is whether the new funding will be enough.

The new money was included in the federal fiscal update, which the Liberals released to much fanfare on Tuesday, and works out to more than $1.2 billion over the next six years.

The government says the funds will be used in a variety of ways, including maintenance to keep the Coast Guard's aging ships, navigational aids and communications equipment in working order.

Money will also be used to train new staff, monitor fish stocks, upgrade radio and information networks and for icebreaking services.

The new funds will no doubt be welcomed by coast guard and fisheries officials, who warned Fisheries Minister Dominic Leblanc when he took over the portfolio last year that they were struggling to make ends meet.

But University of Calgary professor Rob Huebert, who has worked closely with the coast guard, said the promised new cash represents a fraction of what is really needed.

"Good on them for helping on the operational side," he said. "But $200 million per year? Come on  [emphasis added]."

Demands exceeding Coast Guard budget

Briefing notes prepared for Leblanc and obtained by The Canadian Press show the toll has been particularly heavy on the coast guard, whose job is to protect Canada's waterways and keep them safe and open to trade.

The agency relies on a fleet of 116 ships and 22 helicopters as well as 17,000 navigational aids and a network of 300 radio towers across Canada to accomplish this task.

But the briefing notes say that the demands placed on the coast guard had exceeded its $1.1-billion budget, which had forced officials to start making trade offs.

"For several years," officials wrote, "CCG has been attempting to protect these services from reductions by reallocating funds from maintenance."

The decision to divert money away from maintenance isn't insignificant given the age of the coast guard's fleet, with many of its ships more than 30 years old and some approaching 50 [emphasis added].

"Operating aging vessels is challenging, as older ships break down more frequently and cost more to repair," Leblanc was told. "In 2013-14, 1,595 operational days were lost due to breakdowns."
Financial challenges

The government is working to replace some of those ships as part of its national shipbuilding strategy, starting with the delivery of a new offshore fisheries science vessel early next year.

But the entire strategy has been marred by delays and cost overruns, which has forced the government to look for stop-gaps such as refitting extremely old ships or, when that won't work, leasing privately owned vessels.

In the meantime, government officials have said they are reviewing both the construction schedules and budgets of the new vessels.

The coast guard's overall financial situation was considered so severe last year that the government quietly ordered a review of its real financial risks and requirements, though it's unclear where that review sits...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberals-fiscal-update-coast-guard-1.4372059

Sunny ways for CCG and CAF, eh Justin?  Heck, these are just core federal responsibilities but you'd rather bribe people with their descendants' money for votes (if not their own if the crunch comes sooner).

Hurl.

To repeat what it's all about, from 2016:

Quote
Canadian Coast Guard Going Down
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/04/05/mark-collins-canadian-coast-guard-going-down/

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 26, 2017, 08:41:53
Did we give that $241 million to the Clinton Foundation yet?  Seems like the CCG could use it more.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on October 26, 2017, 11:15:17
Mind you the CCG fleet is young compared to the USCG.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on October 26, 2017, 12:32:41
Generally buoy work done over the side rather than the rear, plus her draft is a good 10' more than a 1100, buoy work often means being close in to hazards. She be good at deep sea ODAS's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB6XfEfwJHE

The draft would be the only issue.

Bouy deployment and recovery is regularly done by off shore supply vessels of similar design, wave rider weather bouys are regularly launched and recovered in the fields off Newfoundland and Nova Scotia.

If you've got rail cranes or a crane at the stern, then doing it over the stern is ideal, in most supply vessels, the stern is specifically designed for running chain,.

The CCGS Grenfel is regularly employed in a supplementary role as a bouy tender, her cranes are pedestal boom cranes, fixed in position just aft of the superstructure, I've never been on her for bouy tending, but I would assume they'd flake the chain on deck and run it out from the "rescue zone", mid ship.

The CCGS Terry Fox also lays the occasional bouy.

Practically speaking, most of the "smaller" bouys are laid from the work barges anyway, even some of the larger ones are as well, depending on the area.

The Aiviq would be a poor dedicated bouy tender, but if she had a work barge, she'd certainly be able to fill in here and there, and in fairness, it's not a lack bouy tenders that's the coast guards primary concern, it's a lack of ice breakers.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on October 26, 2017, 12:46:27
One thing I have noted over the years is that the West Coast and East Coast CCG do everything differently and both will tell you that the other is wrong. :)


edit: I only did one deep sea ODAS deployment. Basically the workboat towed the buoy away from the ship, with the anchor over the side on a quick release. Once all the mooring line was payed out, the anchor was released and as soon as the felt the buoy being pulled the boat released the buoy. Most of our buoy deployments were 40-120' using a 3 ton serrated anchor and chain.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on October 26, 2017, 14:24:28
One thing I have noted over the years is that the West Coast and East Coast CCG do everything differently and both will tell you that the other is wrong. :)

Atlantic region and Newfoundland region did everything different and both said the other was wrong...

You can imagine how it went when they merged a few years ago....

The only real consistency across the organization is that they're all out to lunch on a many things :)
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: jollyjacktar on October 26, 2017, 14:47:07
Atlantic region and Newfoundland region did everything different and both said the other was wrong...

You can imagine how it went when they merged a few years ago....

The only real consistency across the organization is that they're all out to lunch on a many things :)

So, no different than the navy then.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on October 26, 2017, 15:13:33
Actually, a lot different than the Navy.

To understand the Canadian Coast Guard, and I am sorry to be this blunt, you have to understand that you are fundamentally dealing with a bunch of merchant ships manned by a bunch of merchant seaman, who to make matters worse are civil servants.

When I served in the Navy in Quebec city, one of my friend was the Engineering Mate on the Norman McLeod (one of the two alternating one). That was his civil service job. It was his - no rotation to shore jobs, posting to "headquarters ' or change in posting - until he decided to retire or until he elected to apply for a different job in the civil service.

The qualifications that the Coast Guard officers are given are merchant seaman certificates and they are free to go and use them onboard any other merchant ship. Since there is no "centralized" training system and they are merchant seaman, there are no orders or regulations or other similar document that would standardize anything across the whole Coast Guard and each ship's crew is free to do things and use method for operating that they will, so long as they are compatible with good seamanship practices in the general merchant world.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on October 26, 2017, 15:21:08
The qualifications that the Coast Guard officers are given are merchant seaman certificates and they are free to go and use them onboard any other merchant ship. Since there is no "centralized" training system and they are merchant seaman, there are no orders or regulations or other similar document that would standardize anything across the whole Coast Guard and each ship's crew is free to do things and use method for operating that they will, so long as they are compatible with good seamanship practices in the general merchant world.

Quite accurate.

Any consistency within a region is only due to circulation of personnel within a region over a long period.

The equipment used isn't standardized either, there may be procurement of some items nationally, but after that, much of it is bought by region, or by individual vessel...

For example, at construction, each of the 1100 class bouy tenders were roughly the same, at least their major systems were the same, but after 30+ years of refits, they're all well diverged, as the refits are all managed at the regional level.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on October 26, 2017, 17:41:42
The Black and Pearkes were roughly the same, but the East Coast preferred a aft leading crane and the West want a forward leading crane, which affected the height of the superstructure. When they wanted to transfer ships from West to East they discovered that the Marine Certificates issued by the CCG College had no international standard, quite embarrassing. They ended up having to get the certification for the college done and I think they had to hire a Master to be on the ship to sail it through the Panama Canal. The Norm McLeod came out here and according to people working on her, she was in terrible shape, asbestos was flaking off her pipes and ceiling, the refit was cancelled and she was sold off after sitting at the dock. Torn apart and rebuilt as a mega yacht. The West coast got screwed on that deal.   
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: jollyjacktar on October 26, 2017, 17:42:04
Actually, a lot different than the Navy.

I was being more tongue in cheek than anything else.  As the East and West coast each think they're doing it right and the other guys are wrong.  We may be not as extreme as the CG but we do have some bi-polar tendencies too.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on October 27, 2017, 20:55:12
Not good, can't imagine why it's been out of service this long?

https://buyandsell.gc.ca/procurement-data/tender-notice/PW-MD-021-26497

2. Definition of the requirement

o The CCGS Ann Harvey has been out of service since April 2015, leaving a large service gap in CCGs operational mandate in the North Atlantic. The purpose of this contract is to refit the vessel back into operating condition and allow it to return to full service as rapidly as possible.
o The Canadian Coast Guard has a requirement for the drydocking, engine installation and limited refit of the CCGS Ann Harvey. The working period for the drydocking is January 18, 2018 to June 15, 2018.  The CCGS Ann Harvey is presently a dead ship.  The vessel has no means of propulsion or working controls to operate the vessel to travel to any other port under its own power.  The drydocking will include the installation of three new engines, a new propulsion control system, a new bow thruster, a new sewage treatment system, hull coating. The refit will also include selected regulatory work and certification requiring drydocking (pulling and inspecting the tail shafts, seals, stern tubes, propellers, rudder) and miscellaneous regulatory surveys of the sea bays, sea chests, void spaces; fire prevention system/pumps.
o The current drydocking schedule for the CCGS Ann Harvey is facilitated by the arrival of the propulsion engines to be installed, allowing the vessel to return to operational service. Moving the vessel to an alternate location would, in its present condition, require a heavy lift transfer since CCG considers a tow in the North Atlantic along the Grand Banks of NL during the winter season too large of a risk for the asset, and CCG will not permit the towing of the vessel in the timeline required by this contract. Further to this, due to scheduled alongside repair work before and after the above stated work period, the vessel is not available for a tow outside of the timeline of this contract.

3. Criteria for assessment of the Statement of Capabilities (Minimum Essential Requirements)

o Any interested supplier must demonstrate by way of a statement of capabilities that its product/equipment/system (as appropriate) meets the following requirements:

1. Operating shipyard, equipped with steel plate cutting, and steel fabricating capabilities to support the required work.
2. The shipyard must be equipped with a certified drydock or certified floating dock capable of drydocking the CCGS Ann Harvey for the working period (January 18 2017 to June 15, 2018)
3. The Contractor must possess CSA W47.1, Certification for Companies for Fusion Welding of Steel (Minimum Div 2) or equivalent.
4. The supplier must be willing to accept full care and custody of the vessel from CCGS Base St. Johns to their facility, and assume all liability for the vessel while in their custody.
5. Vessel transfer and work scope would have to be completed within the time frame noted above
6. As part of their Statement of Capabilities, the shipyard will be required to include in their costing:
a.  a naval architect to develop a docking plan (including blocking plan) to safely dock and undock the vessel in their dry dock
b. the cost of completing the scope of work described above,
c. the cost of transferring the vessel to their facility.
7. As noted above, shipyards interested in submitting a Statement of Capabilities would be required to include in their costing a heavy lift vessel transfer to their facility (with all applicable insurance coverage).

4. Applicability of the trade agreement(s) to the procurement

o This procurement is subject to the following trade agreement:
       The Canadian Free Trade Agreement (CFTA)

5. Set-aside under the Procurement Strategy for Aboriginal Business
             Not applicable

6. Comprehensive Land Claims Agreement(s):
             Not applicable

7. Justification for the Pre-Identified Supplier

o The pre-identified supplier is the closest shipyard to the CCG Base in St. Johns, with the infrastructure required to drydock the vessel. It would not require the vessel to leave the safety of its home port.

8. Government Contracts Regulations Exception(s)

The following exception(s) to the Government Contracts Regulations is (are) invoked for this procurement under subsection subsection 6(c), and (d)

     6 Notwithstanding section 5, a contracting authority may enter into a contract without soliciting bids where
           6(c) the nature of the work is such that it would not be in the public interest to solicit bids;
           6(d) only one person is capable of performing the contract.


9. Exclusions and/or Limited Tendering Reasons
            Not applicable

10. Ownership of Intellectual Property
       Not applicable.

11. Period of the proposed contract or delivery date

o The estimated drydocking and work period for CCGS Ann Harvey is between January 18 2018 and June 15, 2018. 
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on October 27, 2017, 22:34:13
Not good, can't imagine why it's been out of service this long?

Because they punched a large hole in it and flooded three compartments, including her antiquated propulsion system.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/ann-harvey-under-tow-on-2-day-journey-to-st-john-s-1.3023084

She and her sister ships already had a mid-life extension planned for around now, she just got pushed to the front of the line.

It's just moving at the speed of government.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on October 30, 2017, 11:28:02
Thanks, I forgot about that incident. The 1100 are a good all round design, she be worth fixing.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on October 30, 2017, 19:34:31
Thanks, I forgot about that incident. The 1100 are a good all round design, she be worth fixing.

They're good boats, but they're only worth fixing because we're so bad at buying new ones.

The scope of the job on the Harvey is not likely much more than the scope of the midlife will be on her sister ships... another suffered a rather violent generator failure about five years ago... they (the generators) had exceeded the recommended service life from the manufacturer by a number of years... not sure what happened since, but the plan at the time was to run it on two instead of three until the midlife... so they're still in service, still past the end of their life, and they're five years older now.

Tender for generator replacement on all six boats... https://buyandsell.gc.ca/procurement-data/tender-notice/PW-ML-044-26020

Edit: After a little bit of google, looks like ABB will be replacing the propulsion drives...

http://www.abb.ca/cawp/seitp202/b63e2106dadbb404c12581390045dd74.aspx

They make a good, durable, idiot proof drive system... the coast guard makes a good, durable idiot though, and it'll be a night and day change from what they're used to dealing with, so hopefully it'll end well ;)
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on October 31, 2017, 11:16:40
Interesting, thanks for all the info, I have been away from the fleet for sometime and lost the pulse.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on October 31, 2017, 13:07:25
Interesting, thanks for all the info, I have been away from the fleet for sometime and lost the pulse.

I've been asked a few times if I'd go back.

They may have thought I was joking when I said sure, right after you have a 400% pay raise and the fleet goes dry.

It's certainly an interesting place to work though.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on October 31, 2017, 13:34:59
yea they are struggling to hire out here as well. We had guys from the weather ships when I was in the fleet, those guys were serious alcoholics, on the SAR vessels, drinking was not much of a problem, the buoy tenders were, the Layday system was just introduced as I arrived on the Pearkes and that forced some of them to get a life off of the ship, which was literally their home. I did luck out and get a fabulous Bosun who was great to learn from.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on October 31, 2017, 13:41:18
yea they are struggling to hire out here as well. We had guys from the weather ships when I was in the fleet, those guys were serious alcoholics, on the SAR vessels, drinking was not much of a problem, the buoy tenders were, the Layday system was just introduced as I arrived on the Pearkes and that forced some of them to get a life off of the ship, which was literally their home. I did luck out and get a fabulous Bosun who was great to learn from.

From what I understand, alcoholism isn't *as* rampant as it once was...

The *second* time we had an emergency at sea, and we couldn't muster a sober full sober fire team, I said I had enough.

There's policies on the consumption of alcohol, both on and off SAR, but enforcement varies widely depending on the skipper... SAR tasking meant the boat was dry, but practically speaking, it just meant the canteen stopped selling beer, hope you brought enough for yourself.

Purely my opinion, but if they were able to completely clear house of a lot of the existing crew, and reinterview for anyone who wants their job back, it might be a decent spot to work, eliminate the "old school" mentality, and bring in some fresh young keen individuals.

They've opened skipper and chief competitions up to the public since last year, which I think is a good thing, though the downside, they won't get the really talented individuals without opening up the purse strings as well.

Like I said, it's an interesting spot to work at least.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Spencer100 on November 09, 2017, 13:38:02
CCG looking for ice break and such on the St. Lawrence from the private companies

http://www.merx.com/English/SUPPLIER_Menu.Asp?WCE=Show&TAB=1&PORTAL=MERX&State=7&id=428004&src=osr&FED_ONLY=0&ACTION=NEXT&rowcount=2000&lastpage=200&MoreResults=&PUBSORT=2&CLOSESORT=0&IS_SME=Y&hcode=ImOrnv3xu2q%2bC4d7c68Q8A%3d%3d (http://www.merx.com/English/SUPPLIER_Menu.Asp?WCE=Show&TAB=1&PORTAL=MERX&State=7&id=428004&src=osr&FED_ONLY=0&ACTION=NEXT&rowcount=2000&lastpage=200&MoreResults=&PUBSORT=2&CLOSESORT=0&IS_SME=Y&hcode=ImOrnv3xu2q%2bC4d7c68Q8A%3d%3d)

Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 20, 2017, 15:45:53
Good grief!  CCGS Hudson is 54-years old--just buy new vessels wherever built:

Quote
Costs pile up from delayed Canadian Coast Guard vessel refit
Coast guard has been forced to charter 3 private vessels at a cost of $2.58 million, excluding tax

The Canadian Coast Guard has been forced to spend more than $2.5 million this fall to charter vessels to carry out at-sea science surveys because a much-delayed refit has left its own research ship unavailable.

Canada's East Coast ocean monitoring program usually takes place on the CCGS Hudson, but the 54-year old vessel is still not ready after a $4-million refit ran six months behind schedule.

In place of the Hudson, the coast guard has been forced to charter three private vessels at a cost of $2.58 million, excluding tax, CBC News has learned.

"Requests for proposals processes were conducted to secure alternative vessels for three zones which have been surveyed every year since 1998," Department of Fisheries and Oceans spokesperson Vance Chow said in a response to CBC News questions about the fallout from the refit.
Vital information on ocean health

The twice-annual surveys collect a wide range of physical, chemical and biological data to measure ocean conditions...


    $4M refit contract for coast guard research vessel under review

    Why Ottawa yanked a Coast Guard ship out of $4M refit

As for the Hudson, it returned to its home port in Halifax one week ago, with the refit still unfinished.

"There is some minor outstanding work required that will be conducted alongside the ship's home port at the Bedford Institute of Oceanography," Chow said.

Lloyd's Register, the U.K.-based marine safety certifier, has given the vessel an interim provisional certificate, which is valid until Jan. 31, 2018...

(https://i.cbc.ca/1.4400480.1510604691!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_620/hudson-ship-docking.jpg)
The CCGS Hudson is now docked at the Bedford Institute of Oceanography in Dartmouth, N.S
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/coast-guard-coasts-delayed-hudson-refit-1.4407288

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on January 09, 2018, 13:08:20
Comprehensive piece on CCG's acquistions of new helos (note single pilot)--effectively sole-sourcing glossed over but in any event was almost no public attention/controversy as airfrcraft made by Bell Montreal and CAF procurements are the ones media/pols focus on:

Quote
Better, Faster, Stronger: The Canadian Coast Guard’s new helicopter fleet
https://www.verticalmag.com/features/better-faster-stronger-canadian-coast-guards-new-helicopter-fleet/

(https://assets.verticalmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/MikeReynoCCGHali17-9423.jpg)
The Coast Guard base in Shearwater, Nova Scotia, received its 412EPI in June 2017, and pilots have been quick to praise the additional capabilities it provides. Mike Reyno Photo

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on January 11, 2018, 16:45:59
These smaller vessels being built by shipyards outside NSS with "infrastructure" money--spreading the pork around but glad something being produced (cost?):

Quote
Canadian Coast Guard picks Furuno for new SAR vessel class

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.marinelog.com%2Fmedia%2Fk2%2Fitems%2Fcache%2F1a0c5c127b1147eeb8474eca8ecab04a_L.jpg%3Ft%3D1515545971&hash=1661603c0e160d699816f9cc88a39de8)

The Canadian Coast Guard has selected Furuno to outfit its new Bay class search and rescue vessels.

The 55-foot CCGS Pennant Bay and CCGS Baie De Plaisance are the first of twelve hulls ordered by the CCG, with an option for six more.

CCGS Pennant Bay was built by Hike Metal Products in Wheatley, Ontario, while Baie De Plaisance was built by shipbuilder Chantier-Naval Forillon, Inc. in Gaspe, Quebec.

These new Bay class vessels, all named for Canadian bays, have been commissioned under Canada's Federal Infrastructure Initiative and the 2016-17 Fleet Renewal Plan.

The vessel's new Furuno electronics, including a multi-station NavNet TZtouch network with radar and depth sounder, will assist the CCG in its mission of keeping Canadians and Canadian waterways safe...
http://www.marinelog.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=28078:canadian-coast-guard-picks-furuno-for-new-sar-vessel-class&Itemid=257

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on January 16, 2018, 14:54:25
Further to this post,
https://milnet.ca/forums/index.php/topic,122642.msg1510147.html#msg1510147

what's going on?

Quote
Heddle Marine wins Coast Guard contract months after aborted refit
$4-million exterior overhaul of CCGS Hudson fell months behind schedule and was left incomplete

Questions are being raised about the awarding of another refit contract for the Canadian Coast Guard ship Hudson to the same company behind an aborted refit on the science research ship last year.

"My question is, with the problems with that dry docking, why was this firm allowed to bid on this one?" asked Wayne Snow, the CEO of Dartmouth-based KMS Industries Inc.

Snow was an unsuccessful bidder on a mechanical refit of the Hudson. The work was awarded Friday to Heddle Marine Service Inc (NL).

    Costs pile up from delayed Canadian Coast Guard vessel refit

It's an affiliate of Heddle Marine Services, which carried out the troubled $4-million exterior overhaul of CCGS Hudson in 2017.

That refit was months behind schedule and still unfinished when Public Services and Procurement Canada stepped in in October and towed Hudson out of the Heddle Marine shipyard in Hamilton, Ont.

Why a second chance?

The plan was to complete the refit at a federal facility in nearby Burlington, Ont., but the job was incomplete when Hudson returned to its Halifax home port in November. The vessel was operating under an interim provision certificate by Lloyds Register.

The contract has been under review for months and outstanding issues remain.

    Canadian Coast Guard ship back in Halifax 6 months later than planned

"For us, it's an issue that should be answered by government as to why this company is allowed to come back and bid after not completing the first refit," said Tony Kennedy of Canadian Marine Engineering, another losing bidder.

Kennedy and Snow are competitors, but are united in speaking out on this tender...

The winning bid is for 61 days of mechanical refits while CCGS Hudson is alongside its home base at the Bedford Institute of Oceanography.

Work is supposed to conclude in March, with Hudson available for spring science cruises.

As for the disputed contract at its Hamilton shipyard, Padulo said the company and PSPC are "finalizing" outstanding issues.

"Although there were challenges on both sides, we are working toward an amicable resolution," he said in an email to CBC News.

The federal government has never explained what went wrong with Heddle's 2017 refit nor whether it paid the company the full $4-million contract price. Months of delays had a costly cascading effect, they have admitted.

The Department of Fisheries and Oceans spent $2.5 million in 2017 chartering private vessels for scientific cruises because the Hudson was not available...

Public Services and Procurement Canada did not respond to CBC questions.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/canadian-coast-guard-contracts-refit-ccgs-hudson-1.4486111

Gosh.

Mark
Ottawa





Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on January 16, 2018, 21:19:34
The CCGS Hudson is 55 years old, and in poor condition...

An equally important question is why is the government so bad at replacing boats.

Heddle does about the same quality of work as any other marine contractor in Canada.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on January 19, 2018, 17:21:17
Pretty sure gov't will find way to sole-source to Davie if they really want to:

Quote
Finnish company raises red flags over federal negotiations for Davie icebreakers

A Finnish company is questioning the Trudeau government’s decision to launch negotiations with Quebec shipyard Davie for the lease of four icebreakers without conducting a formal competition.

Helsinki-based Arctia Ltd. says it had expected a competition after the federal government asked shipowners in late 2016 to provide information about the icebreakers they had available for lease [see 2016 post on that below].

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau instead surprised many when he announced this week that the government would start talks with Davie, which has proposed to convert four icebreakers and lease them to the Canadian Coast Guard.

Trudeau’s announcement followed an intense lobbying campaign by the Quebec government, and came despite Davie’s central role in the RCMP’s investigation against suspended Vice-Admiral Mark Norman.

Arctia president Tero Vauraste says his company has six icebreakers readily available for the coast guard [emphasis added], and that holding a competition is the best way to ensure best value for Canadian taxpayers.

Vauraste says that while it is too early to say whether a deal between the government and Davie would violate procurement laws, the new free trade deal between Canada and the EU includes provisions on procurement.

Public Works and Procurement Canada did not immediately respond to requests for comment.
http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/finnish-company-raises-red-flags-over-federal-negotiations-for-davie-icebreakers

About Arctia position:

Quote
The Finnish shipowner Arctia Ltd. is moving forward to support Canada in icebreaking and towing services. The company has responded to the Canadian Government’s Request for Information and Industry Consultation for Interim Icebreaking and Towing Capability for the Canadian Coast Guard, and continues to follow the tendering process. Arctia’s purpose-built icebreaker fleet is promptly available, and can serve the Canadian industry and Arctic communities within weeks.

(https://static.vesselfinder.net/images/media/7219622dd9b999629980807186ee6387.jpg)

“We were quite surprised yesterday reading the news stating that negotiations will be launched with one interested supplier for the conversion and lease of existing supply vessels. We have understood that the open tender for interim icebreaking services is still open and does not cover any conversion costs“, states Tero Vauraste, the President and CEO of Arctia Ltd.

Arctia Ltd. participates in the Canadian Government’s tender for interim icebreaking solutions. The company is ready to charter its icebreakers to the Canadian Coast Guard and explore cooperative solutions to help Canada avoid the so-called icebreaker gap within the formal purchasing process. The Government’s public tender issued in November 2016 states that the Canadian Coast Guard may require additional icebreaking capacity provided by one (1) to five (5) icebreakers at various times over the next number of years.

    “We have extensive experience in the North American Arctic. All our icebreakers have diesel-electric propulsion and they are designed specifically for challenging and long-lasting icebreaking operations. They need no conversion for operations in the Canadian Arctic. This is a clear advantage compared to our competitors. We are the only operator in the world that can provide multiple powerful heavy and medium heavy polar class icebreakers promptly and on a commercial basis“, Vauraste explains.

Arctia Ltd. is a Finnish shipowner specialized in icebreaking, ice management and towing. The company currently has eight icebreakers in its fleet, including IB Polaris, the first Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) powered icebreaker in the world. Finnish multipurpose icebreakers have been proven effective in the Canadian Arctic. Just this July, the Finnish MSV Nordica transited the Northwest Passage (NWP) from Vancouver, Canada, to Nuuk, Greenland, in 24 days with researchers and a Canadian Coast Guard officer on board. This transit set the record for the earliest crossing of the NWP. The Nordica now holds the records for both the earliest and latest season transits of the NWP.

Along with the Nordica, its sister vessel MSV Fennica has served in ice management tasks in the Beaufort and Chukchi Seas in 2007 and from 2012 to 2015. Arctia’s converted IB Otso has worked on the north-eastern coast of Greenland...
https://www.vesselfinder.com/news/11295-Arctia-Ltd-ready-to-support-Canada

2016:

Quote
Davie Québec Actually Going to Supply Some Icebreakers for Coast Guard?
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/11/18/mark-collins-davie-quebec-actually-going-to-supply-some-icebreakers-for-coast-guard/

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on January 21, 2018, 19:42:06
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/david-icebreakers-shipyard-quebec-1.4494182

Looks like Davie is going to be supplying leased icebreakers.

My oppiniom, this will probably be a good thing.

They've got several ice breaker out of service right now, and some of the remainder aren't particularly reliable.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on February 08, 2018, 22:25:12
CCGS Cygnus taking on water, enroute to St. John's...

http://vocm.com/news/coast-guard-vessel-en-route-to-st-johns-reportedly-taking-on-water/

Rumor is the Atlantic Kingfisher has reached her, and she's still headed to St. John's under her own power.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on February 08, 2018, 22:45:25
Can't figure what could have gone wrong, for the life of me. She is barely 37 years old, and still has that new ship smell.  ;D

Seriously, though: She looked better in Fisheries Grey. Just my  :2c:
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on February 08, 2018, 22:52:46
Meanwhile in US (our fed governments are lamentable at looking after their core responsibilities--but USCG still needs funding from Congress):

Quote
RFP For New Coast Guard Heavy Icebreaker Expected This Month

The request for proposals to build the nation’s next generation heavy icebreaker is expected to be released by the end of the month, the U.S. Coast Guard commandant said on Thursday.

Speaking at the annual WEST 2018 conference, Adm. Paul Zukunft wouldn’t comment on how much money the fiscal year 2019 budget dedicates to the icebreaker, but did say, “It does provide funding for an icebreaker, at least in the draft, so that provides the confidence level that industry needs.”

Previous estimates put the cost for the first heavy icebreaker cost at about $1 billion.

Five vendors are expected to submit proposals for the first-in-class ship. Zukunft said ultimately the Coast Guard wants to buy six icebreakers – three heavy and three medium icebreakers. Zukunft has previously stated the new heave icebreaker is scheduled to launch in 2023.

“We haven’t built one in 40 years,” Zukunft said.
“It’s an investment in our shipbuilding industry here in the United States.”

The Coast Guard’s lone workable heavy icebreaker — USCGC Polar Star (WAGB-10) — spends about 300 days on missions or in a maintenance yard. A second heavy icebreaker, USCGC Polar Sea (WAGB-11), is used as a [parts donor to keep Polar Star seaworthy.

But, Zukunft acknowledged there’s been some debate about whether the Coast Guard is better off only buying one type of icebreaker, the heavies, and buying fewer of them – four instead of six.

“We know if you have a hot production line the unit costs come down, then you build a new product, that new product is more expensive than what you’re already building,” Zukunft said. “We’re still looking at six as the right number.”...
https://news.usni.org/2018/02/08/31241

Of course until now main use of USCG big icebreakers has usually been in Antarctic.

Whilst Seaspan is to build one (only) CCG heavy icebreaker sometime in mid- to late-2020s never never land.

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on February 08, 2018, 22:57:43
Can't figure what could have gone wrong, for the life of me. She is barely 37 years old, and still has that new ship smell.  ;D

Seriously, though: She looked better in Fisheries Grey. Just my  :2c:

Her step-sister ship, the CCGS Cape Roger, nearly sank at the wharf 5 years ago when she rusted through under her stern tubes.

It was arguably a stroke of good luck when it happened, she was scheduled to be on fisheries patrol, but ended up in the harbour after damage was found on her life boat.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on February 09, 2018, 12:43:27
A whole host of chickens coming home to roost it seems. They could ask Seaspan to build a 4th OFSV to help fill the gaps.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on February 09, 2018, 13:44:40
OFSV's are too slow and not really appropriate for fisheries enforcement on the Grand Banks.

Unfortunately, the OPV/MEMTV's are scheduled to be built after the Diefenbaker. Though, If there is a break in construction - and Seaspan claims there is after the third OFSV, then perhaps one or two of the OPV/MEMTV can be snuck in.

But please: Don't delay the JSS's or Diefenbaker as a result.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on February 09, 2018, 14:44:38
I doubt the Cygnus can reach here design speed of 16kts anymore, the OFSV are stated as 12.5kt max. Slow yes, but they are new and can conduct some of the tasks. Actaully building a 4th won't take to long as they are moving quickly on the 2 remaining OFSV and might even have layoffs till the next build. I would offer up anther idea, but the Hero boats kind of suck. They could buy back the John Jacobson (which the ccg should never had sold)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/CORIOLIS_II_IMO-_8818570.jpg) 
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on February 09, 2018, 14:52:53
They could buy back the John Jacobson (which the ccg should never had sold)

Is it for sale? Even if it were, it's 28 years old.... anything past 30 years and you're pretty much at the end of the reliable service life for a vessel.

I realize the government is operating plenty of vessels older than 30 years right now, but most are in desperate need of replacement.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on February 09, 2018, 15:51:18
God you make me feel old, I still think of these as "newer"........ :'(
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on February 09, 2018, 17:27:12
I doubt the Cygnus can reach here design speed of 16kts anymore, the OFSV are stated as 12.5kt max. Slow yes, but they are new and can conduct some of the tasks. Actaully building a 4th won't take to long as they are moving quickly on the 2 remaining OFSV and might even have layoffs till the next build. I would offer up anther idea, but the Hero boats kind of suck. They could buy back the John Jacobson (which the ccg should never had sold)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/CORIOLIS_II_IMO-_8818570.jpg)

Problem is, Colin, if you give the Coast Guard a new but less capable vessel to do a task "in the meantime", it will end up being the vessel doing that job until it is retired 45 years later and deprive the CG of a proper vessel to do the job. How long do you think the Coast Guard will retain those "interim" icebreakers Davie is about to refit of use by the Coast Guard? ;)

As slow as the current offshore vessels are on the East coast (16 to17 knots), you want the next generation to be better and faster, not slower and merely adapted for the task. If you go in the NSPS thread, I just finished a long post that touches on what I think should be done concerning the Coast Guard East coast patrol capabilities.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on February 09, 2018, 18:46:34
17kts is plenty fast for a displacement vessel, trying to get past that, means climbing against and breaking through your own bow wave. Unless you go long and skinny, with thirsty engines like the USCG  Island Class Cutters.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on February 09, 2018, 19:08:45
Tons of OPV designs out there in the 21 to 25 knots range without gas guzzling power curves.

But in any event, you don't need to go over 12-14 knots to get there and back. You need the extra speed when you are trying to catch someone in the act or engage in a reasonably short "hot-pursuit".

Anybody remembers the Turbot War?
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on February 09, 2018, 19:34:54
God you make me feel old, I still think of these as "newer"........ :'(

They are "newer", that's why the coast guard is in this mess ;)

How long do you think the Coast Guard will retain those "interim" icebreakers Davie is about to refit of use by the Coast Guard? ;)

Don't knock the new lease boats yet... they may turn out to be a pretty good option... of course, it could turn out to be a terrible idea...

The Aiviq at least (I can't find any details on the others) should have another good 23 years of service in her... I'm guessing unless they've got problems during the lease period, they'll end up buying her outright... an ice-breaking AHTS is a pretty good "all-purpose" vessel for the coast guard... the Terry Fox has worked out well during her service life

Aside from being an ice breaker, she's also capable as an off-shore tug, and she'll likely have an oil recovery system installed, so a good option for off-shore pollution response, and she's capable of laying bouys where her draft permits.

She'll probably be a pig for fuel though, and they may have some difficulty in maintenance up-front, as it's several generations ahead of what they're used to.

It's got potential at least.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on February 09, 2018, 20:56:33
Don't get me wrong, Not a Sig Op, I am not knocking the Davie interim vessels. I am hinting at the fact that when the Coast Guard gets them and they relieve some of the river icebreakers, the CG may just decide to keep them, retire the older icebreakers and conveniently forget to work towards getting actual future replacements - restarting the whole cycle of urgent replacement at a later date.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on February 09, 2018, 21:19:55
Absolutely agreed... wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if in 2046, we're reading about the Aiviq limping her way into port, with no replacement in sight.

Not much political will to plan for anything past a 4 year election cycle.

Would be pretty great if they can keep some of this ship-building momentum going...
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on February 12, 2018, 17:49:14
Tons of OPV designs out there in the 21 to 25 knots range without gas guzzling power curves.

But in any event, you don't need to go over 12-14 knots to get there and back. You need the extra speed when you are trying to catch someone in the act or engage in a reasonably short "hot-pursuit".

Anybody remembers the Turbot War?

Most of the speedy designed patrol boats come with a cost, the Island Class the USCG used started suffering from cracking, because most fast patrol boats suffer from light scantlings, needed to keep them from being to thirsty. The reason the CG has not gone after fast patrol craft, is because they are generally 1 trick ponies and don't do weather well. The R class rolled like pigs.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on February 13, 2018, 12:13:34
Colin, I am not talking about fast inshore boats like the Island class and R-boats "dinky-toys" you mention. I am talking about offshore vessels that can face the Grand banks, in the same 1500 to 2400 tons range as the current Coast Guard such vessels I mentioned above, but faster.

Quick examples (and all of these can be either Coast Guard or military versions as need be)[photos in order of mention]:

French L'Adroit, 1500 tons, 21 Kts;
Canadian design/New Zealand operated Otago, 1900 tons, 22 Kts;
Damen design 1800 Axebow, 1800 tons, 26 Kts;
British River class batch 2, 2200 tons, 24 Kts.

Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on February 13, 2018, 14:08:52
Nice looking boats, but the CCG management will look at them and say: "Other than burn fuel at painful rates, what else can they do?" They want it to drag gear for science collection, do some buoy tending, etc.

You be surprised where the USCG took their Island Class, including Alaska and talking to an XO on one that we tied up alongside, they went offshore as well. Also clutched in at idle was 9kts......
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on February 13, 2018, 15:16:15
Over to Congress for funding:

Quote
Coast Guard Budget Would Fund 1st New Heavy Icebreaker in 40 Years

The Coast Guard finds itself in a significantly different budget environment this year -- not only is the service requesting a sizeable bump in funding, the money would help pay for its first new heavy icebreaker in 40 years.

The service asked for a total of about $11.7 billion in funding for fiscal 2019, an increase of $979 million, or 8.4 percent, over its previous request, according to a document released Monday as part of President Donald Trump's budget request.

Last year, by comparison, the service faced a $1.3 billion cut before launching a massive and ultimately successful public relations campaign to underscore its importance to national security despite being the smallest of the U.S. military services and the only one to fall under the Department of Homeland Security rather than the Defense Department.

The additional money for the fiscal year beginning Oct. 1 would include $750 million for a new heavy icebreaker slated for delivery in 2023, according to the budget document. The funding would go toward building "the Nation's first new heavy Polar Icebreaker in over 40 years," it states.

The money "continues efforts to award a contract for detail design and construction to maintain scheduled delivery for a new icebreaker in 2023. Specifically, funding provides detail, design, long lead time materials, construction, program management office support, feasibility studies and maintaining the indicative design, cybersecurity planning, project resident office initiation, and Navy reimbursable technical support [emphasis added, more money will be needed to finish it]," the document continues. "This acquisition is recapitalizing the Coast Guard's heavy polar icebreaker fleet."

The Coast Guard wants to replace the barely seaworthy Polar Star for Arctic missions with a fleet of three heavy icebreakers. Last fall, it released a draft request for proposals from potential builders for a new heavy icebreaker design. The service also wants to build three medium icebreakers...
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/02/12/coast-guard-budget-would-fund-1st-new-heavy-icebreaker-40-years.html

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on February 13, 2018, 15:23:05
Well, Colin, the management didn't ask that when they use Cape Roger, Cygnus, Leonard J. Cowley or the Grenfeld, because all they can and actually do is fisheries patrol and, secondarily, high seas SAR.

All four patrol vessels I propose above can do that and more - for starters they can all carry/operate a larger helicopter (medium as opposed to light, medium meaning EH101/NH90/Cormorant/Cyclone). All carry firefighting gear (only Grenfeld currently does); the Adroit, Damen product and Otago can carry containerized pollution control equipment and, all four carry larger and better Rhib's for fisheries boardings. The Damen product and Otago can carry mission containers at the back and have cranes to operate whatever they contain. The current four patrol vessels can't do that.

As for fuel consumption, in terms of actual fuel consumed per NM, they are all in the same range as the four current Coast Guard vessels, which is approx. 1.4 to 1.7 cu ft of fuel per Nautical Mile.

However, I think we are straying from the topic, here, which is the Coast Guard is going down, and in this case, more particularly, the East coast fisheries protection vessels are falling apart and need urgent replacing - now - not in 15 years.

Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on February 13, 2018, 18:58:36
Fwiw...

Only the cygnus/cape roger/cowley are intended to perform fisheries patrol work on the grand banks.

Only the cowley can carry a helicopter, but it very seldom does.

The cygnus and roger have helidecks but no hanger.

The grenfel has never had an intended role, and the unofficial story, as i understand, is that it was bought to bail out the yard that built on spec for the oil industry but couldn't sell it (don't quote me on this part, thats just what I collected from grumblings)

It found its niche refueling light stations, built as a PSV, it had substantial cargo tanks for fuel, a large pump and liquid cargo manifold...

With the demise of diesel powered light stations, it really served no purpose.

Its not an ice breaker, so its limited for a lot of work the coast guard does.

Mostly it fills in for other vessels when they're under going maintenance, and spends a lot of time in St Johns harbour doing dedicated SAR standby.

They cold stacked it a few years ago, and were going to dispose of it, but there was a public out cry as the general public saw it as a loss of SAR assests (it was old junk slowly sinking in the dark)

When the Ann Harvey was damaged, they immediately invested a substantial amount to bring the Grenfel back into service, but it can't do everything the Harvey could.

If it were an anchor handler, or could break ice, or even if it wasn't 31, it might not be so bad, but the fact that its in service now is a testament to how desperately new ships are needed.

One huge asset many of the coast guard vessels have going for them is their miranda davits.

Its sort of a cross between a conventional single point luffing davit, and a skate davit.

They're able to launch and recover an FRC in much heavier weather than most ships can.

They're quite rough on the paint, but they're extremely good as far as FRC davits go.

With any luck, we'll see these on future vessels.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on February 14, 2018, 11:46:30
Frankly the 1100's are a great design all around and one of the few multi-task ships I have seen that really does well at all the tasks given to them. Speed is the only thing they don't do well. We should have slowly been churning out this design with minor modifications over the years and you would have a newer fleet and more common design allowing crews to cross deck easier.   
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on February 14, 2018, 15:04:53
Agreed, 1100 is a great design/concept for what it does.

A few new technology upgrades would make leaps and bounds on top of an already good basic vessel design and concept...

- DP1 conning system
- Automated machinery space
- Constant tension towing winch
- more reliable propulsion system
- modern crane

Some of those items are already planned for the midlife on the existing ships...

First step with the midlife program is the turn the Ann Harve back into a ship instead of a barge ;)
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on February 14, 2018, 16:42:32
Just imagine if they had been churning out 1 every 2-3 years from the same yard. build 20 in total and then you could start on replacing the first one.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: YZT580 on February 14, 2018, 22:10:06
Just imagine if they had been churning out 1 every 2-3 years from the same yard. build 20 in total and then you could start on replacing the first one.

Isn't that the whole reason behind the programme: to ensure that we are never in this position again?  The painful part is trying to catch up.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on February 19, 2018, 13:31:30
A truly sorry saga--and no replacement until early 2020s from Seaspan:

Quote
Heddle Marine paid 98% of contract for botched Hudson refit
Federal government still won't say what went wrong with the refit

The end may be in sight to the sorry saga of the 2017 refit-gone-wrong of Canada's premier scientific research vessel the Canadian Coast Guard Ship Hudson.

But not before a government disclosure that Heddle Marine Services has been paid nearly 98 per cent of the $4-million contract price, even though the refit ran six months late and was still unfinished when the government yanked the Hudson out of an Ontario shipyard, fearing the vessel would be trapped in the Great Lakes for a second winter.

"To date, a total of $3,912,221.92 (HST excluded) has been paid to Heddle Marine Service Inc," said Coast Guard spokesperson Vance Chow in a recent e-mailed response to CBC News.

Why Ottawa pulled the plug

The 54-year-old research ship went in for an exterior maintenance refit in December 2016.

The job was supposed to be completed in May 2017.

In October 2017, Public Services and Procurement Canada pulled the plug and had the Hudson towed out of the Hamilton, Ont., yard to complete the refit at a federal facility in nearby Burlington, Ont.

The Coast Guard said at the time only a minor amount of work remained.

    $4M refit contract for coast guard research vessel under review

    Why Ottawa yanked a Coast Guard ship out of $4M refit

Coast Guard Commissioner Jeffrey Hutchinson later told a parliamentary committee "the work as being done and was generally being accepted" but delivery dates were being missed and winter was closing in.

"We had to do a very basic calculation and that is that the seaway closes on a given day and we needed the Hudson back on the East Coast before the seaway closed," Hutchinson said.

The delay forced the Coast Guard to spend more than $2.5 million chartering vessels to carry out at-sea surveys because the Hudson was not available.

Still no explanation from federal government

The government still won't say what went wrong with the refit.

"Discussions between PSPC, the CCG (Canadian Coast Guard) and the contractor are still ongoing concerning the nature of the delays," said Chow...

The CCGS Hudson is now back at home base in Dartmouth undergoing a scheduled interior refit being carried out alongside by Heddle Marine.

Ottawa awarded the $840,000 tender to Heddle Marine Service Inc. (NL), which it maintains is a separate operating entity from Heddle Marine Services.

The two companies share the same website...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/heddle-marine-services-hudson-retrofit-payment-1.4540213

Quote
[DFO] Departmental Plan 2017-18 Supplementary information tables
Status report on transformational and Major Crown Projects
Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel

...
2020 - Tentative delivery of Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel...
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2017-18/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on February 19, 2018, 14:27:20
The saddest thing here is seeing a 54 year old ship being described as "Canada's premier scientific research vessel". It really shows how seriously Canada takes its scientific research and supports the various agencies carrying such work.

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on March 01, 2018, 17:07:57
CCG can only watch in envy and dream:

Quote
Coast Guard set to release new heavy icebreaker RFP

The Coast Guard’s top officer announced Thursday that the service is set to release its request for proposal as early as Friday for its long-awaited heavy icebreaker replacement.

Adm. Paul Zukunft told an audience at the annual State of the Coast Guard address that the RFP will go out to five potential vendors [emphasis added] and will be a comprehensive set of requirements and specifications for the new cutter.

We need the first one in the water by 2023 so we are on an accelerated timeline,” Zukunft told a group of reporters. “We are still predecisional on the 19 budget but we’re optimistic that this isn’t just a request but that the funding is there to match it. Now this is just the first one, we’re looking at a fleet of six [emphasis added], but this gets the ball rolling. We’ve been working this for 20 years now but we’re getting out the the starting blocks and we need to sprint.”

The Coast Guard is looking to build a fleet of three heavy and three medium icebreakers in the coming years.

Zukunft also left open the possibility that the Icebreaker might need to be armed at some point in the future to counter Russia’s increasingly assertive presence in the region...
https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2018/03/01/coast-guard-set-to-release-new-heavy-icebreaker-rfp/

Sigh.

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on March 05, 2018, 11:50:45
Don't get your hopes up, still vapourware
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on March 16, 2018, 17:06:40
More on Finnish shipbuilder Arctia's offer of icebreakers for CGG vs. Davie's:

Quote
Exposed in the north: Canada falls behind in developing the Arctic
...
HELSINKI — A map of the North Pole, with a miniature Finnish flag pinned squarely in the middle, decorates the small coffee table in Tero Vauraste’s Helsinki office, one that actually floats atop the Gulf of Finland. As the current chair of the Arctic Economic Council and chief executive of Finland’s icebreaker powerhouse Arctia Inc., the north is familiar territory to Vauraste — much like the frigid -26 C temperatures outside his office in late February.

At the moment, Vauraste is feeling a bit frustrated with the Canadian government.

Arctia wants to supply Canada with several much-needed interim icebreakers. The state-backed company believed it was on track to help provide the fleet, until Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in January went on CBC/Radio-Canada and said the government was beginning negotiations with the Chantier Davie Canada Inc. shipyard in Quebec to lease three icebreakers.

“That was, for us, a big surprise and quite unexpected,” Vauraste said, pointing out Arctia has icebreakers ready to send to Canada.

Perhaps he shouldn’t have been surprised that Canada doesn’t seem to be in a rush to replace its aging fleet of icebreakers. Experts say that’s just one example of how Canada is struggling to keep pace with the Arctic research and development being conducted by Nordic countries such as Finland, as well as Russia and China...

Arctia, which provides most of the world’s icebreakers, had submitted a proposal to the Canadian government after a request for information was opened more than a year ago. The company was hoping to lease part of its existing fleet to Canada on an interim basis.

“Our proposal was that we could work together by enhancing our current capacity. We already have a fleet of one to five icebreakers, which was requested, that could work in the Canadian Arctic without any big conversions,” Vauraste said. “The vessels are more or less ready to start working there any day… so it’s frustrating.”

A spokesperson for Public Services and Procurement Canada said the government is currently in negotiations with Chantier Davie regarding three medium-sized icebreakers.

“Our government is focused on providing the women and men of the Canadian Coast Guard with the equipment they need to do their work in a timely and efficient way, and at the best cost to Canadian taxpayers,” spokesperson Jean-François Létourneau said.

Interim icebreakers don’t provide a long-term solution for Canada’s aging fleet, where the average age is approaching four decades, but they would partly address the country’s lagging profile in the Arctic...
http://business.financialpost.com/transportation/finland-feature

Endless flipping Canadian gov't blah, blah, blah...i.e. Jobs! Jobs! Jobs! (and Quebec).

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Swampbuggy on March 16, 2018, 22:09:20
3 medium icebreakers? I guess that means AIVIQ is off the table. Great. It was the piece of PROJECT RESOLUTE that would likely have the largest payoff, with TERRY FOX and LOUIS ST LAURENT in their golden years. 
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on March 27, 2018, 15:37:01
Lots of people in Quebec getting upset over feds's delay in giving contract to Davie for its "Project Resolute" plans for four converted icebreaking vessels (zero coverage in English media)--note esp. at end of first story the Radio-Canada scoop that gov has been sitting on a six-vessel CCG "Program Icebreaker" for year and half.  Which Seaspan could not start on for another decade and Irving couldn't do with commitment to CSCs--so is idea to have Davie build them?  But when?  And what about Davie's workers and suppliers in the meantime.

Lots of political problems for both fed and Quebec Liberals:

1)
Quote
Brise-glaces et Davie : des doutes sur la volonté d’Ottawa


...Des documents stratégiques obtenus par Radio-Canada démontrent qu’il existe un plan que le gouvernement refuse de dévoiler publiquement. Il vise la construction de six nouveaux brise-glaces.

Cela s’inscrit dans ce qui a été baptisé « Program Icebreaker » et qui permettrait de remplacer graduellement la flotte actuelle dont l’âge moyen est de plus de 35 ans.

Les six navires desserviraient le sud du Canada et l’Arctique tout en permettant la tenue d’activités scientifiques. Leur construction est jugée essentielle pour réduire les risques qui pèsent sur l’économie insistent les documents qui précisent que l’industrie maritime n’est pas adéquatement desservie. Or, Radio-Canada peut confirmer que le gouvernement a ce plan en main depuis au moins un an et demi.

Cela soulève des questions étant donné que les chantiers Irving d’Halifax et Seaspan de Vancouver ont des carnets de commande déjà bien remplis. Pourquoi le gouvernement tarde-t-il à mettre le plan à exécution ? A-t-il subi les pressions des chantiers concurrents de Davie? Attend-il l’année électorale pour bouger ?

Pourtant, les libéraux ne cessent de répéter que le remplacement des vieux brise-glaces est une priorité.
http://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1091392/brise-glaces-davie

2)
Quote
[PHOTOS] Ottawa pointé du doigt pour la lenteur des projets à la Davie
Les employés et les fournisseurs du chantier naval accusent le gouvernement de ne pas en faire assez pour la relance
http://www.journaldequebec.com/2018/03/26/photos-manifestation-des-employes-de-la-davie-au-bureau-de-duclos

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on March 27, 2018, 16:07:17
Interesting that the first article mentions that the blockage to the negotiations would originate from the Coast Guard - not the government.

Similarly, it is a little weird that the same Coast Guard would produce a "icebreaker project" document for the government a year and a half ago indicating the immediate need for six new icebreakers (since they are for down South and Arctic as a secondary research duty - I assume those are class 3 or 4 river icebreakers) when they know full well that there is no way that Seaspan would be able to even begin construction of the first one for at least 12 years.

Is it possible that we have an internal conflict: The Government wants to move with the "interim" purchase - which Coast Guard officials suspect would lead to delays if not abandonment of their proposed "icebreaker project", so the Coast Guard is running interference to force the hand of the government into moving right away to the acquisition of six new icebreakers. I can see how many civil servants at Procurement Canada might feel that such action is akin to a "betrayal" of the NSPS, even if such ice breakers were never contemplated as part of it.

We may be seeing just the visible portion of an internal fight within the civil service here.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Uzlu on March 28, 2018, 10:58:53
Quote
Industry to help coast guard with icebreaking

OTTAWA — The Canadian Coast Guard has been given new powers to call on industry for short-term help in clearing ice-choked seaways — even as plans for replacing the agency's aging icebreaker fleet over the long term remain in flux.

The new powers were outlined Tuesday as officials marked the start of the spring icebreaking season in the St. Lawrence Seaway and the Great Lakes, through which much of Canada's foreign trade flows.

The coast guard will be able to enlist pre-approved companies for help as needed without having to go through a formal bidding process, resulting in quicker and more reliable service for those in need, officials say.

The measure is intended as a last resort when the coast guard doesn't have enough icebreakers to respond, such as when one of its vessels has a mechanical breakdown.

Yet there are fears such a scenario will become increasingly common in the coming years as the coast guard's icebreaking fleet continues to get older — with no replacements on the horizon.

Officials stood by their aging vessels, noting the federal government has invested millions of dollars in the past few years to maintain and extend the lives of many of the coast guard's aging icebreakers.

"We have a very strong plan in place with scheduled and planned maintenance, refit and vessel life extensions to support the fleet renewal plan as we are moving forward with our assets," said assistant commissioner Julie Gascon.

"Our vessels are very capable and very reliable."

But the icebreakers, which are on average over 35 years old, have seen their share of problems in recent years — including one high-profile breakdown in January that left a ferry stuck in ice near Quebec City for four hours.

Concerns about the state of the fleet were also flagged in briefing notes to Fisheries Minister Dominic Leblanc back in 2016, where officials reported that 1,595 operational days had been lost due to breakdowns in 2013-14 alone.

The federal government's national shipbuilding strategy includes a new heavy icebreaker, but that vessel won't be ready until at least the mid-2020s, while work continues on plans for replacing the rest of the fleet.

"We've started consultations with industry and gone a long way already in analyzing what's available out there for different technologies that would benefit us for the long term," said Greg Lick, the coast guard's director-general for operations.

"The fleet-renewal plan is making good progress now in terms of its development. We don't have a specific timeline right now to share about when it will be completed. But we're well on our way toward doing that."

While Lick wouldn't dive into details, industry sources say the coast guard is undertaking a complete reassessment of exactly what types of ships it will need over the coming decades — a process that has already been going on for several years.

Questions include what to do with 10 vessels, some of whom can serve as medium and light icebreakers, that are supposed to be built by Vancouver-based Seaspan Shipbuilding after the heavy icebreaker is finished.

Those vessels were originally announced by the Harper government in 2013, at an estimated cost of $3.3 billion, and aren't slated for construction until the mid- to late-2020s.

In the meantime, the Trudeau government has been talking with Quebec shipyard Davie for the past two months about leasing several converted icebreakers to the coast guard as an interim option until full replacements are ready.

The two sides have yet to come to an agreement, however, in part because of a disagreement over whether one of the four icebreakers that Davie is offering can actually meet the coast guard's needs.

By Lee Berthiaume, The Canadian Press
https://www.thespec.com/news-story/8354221-industry-to-help-coast-guard-with-icebreaking/
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on March 28, 2018, 12:06:05
Well, that is scary: The Coast Guard is looking at what icebreaking they can get from the 10 vessels planned for Seaspan after the Diefenbaker is built. They are the OPV's, the patrol vessels that are supposed to replace the current fleet of fisheries/high sea SAR vessels, not be employed in planned/day-to-day ice breaking ops.

Unless of course, the Coast Guard knows something we don't - like there won't be any fish to fish in our oceans by 2025 - so no need to patrol fisheries. ??? 
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: SeaKingTacco on March 28, 2018, 12:18:52
Or they have determined that the OPVs won't sea keep safely enough to do fisheries patrols, offshore, and are looking for some way of employing the vessels?
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on March 28, 2018, 12:27:44
That would be a feat, since their actual design has not even been selected yet.

But even if you turn them into ice breakers to replace the current fleet, that still leaves the current patrol vessels to replace. Either way, one important part of the Coast Guard fleet gets to be 50 years old by the time its replaced.

The original idea of the NSPS was continuous build by the selected yard, but in the case of the Coast Guard, the state of the fleet does not really allow that option for the River icebreakers fleet and patrol fleet. The Government has to bite the bullet and get both at the same time if it doesn't want to lose one of those capabilities - with the consequences for Canadian industry, be it export/intn'l trade or fishing (because if we can't patrol, don't think for a moment that other nations won't come scooping our fish).
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: SeaKingTacco on March 28, 2018, 12:36:51
Sorry- I misunderstood. I thought they were looking at re-rolling the ships they are currently building at Seaspan.

A fight between the Coast Guard and PSPC on what the priority should be? The Govt caught in the horns of a dilemma because it has delayed ship procurement for so long?
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on March 28, 2018, 12:47:43
Turn your questions into statements, SKT, and I would say: Bingo! Hole in One! Got it!
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on March 28, 2018, 14:04:57
Sorry- I misunderstood. I thought they were looking at re-rolling the ships they are currently building at Seaspan.

A fight between the Coast Guard and PSPC on what the priority should be? The Govt caught in the horns of a dilemma because it has delayed ship procurement for so long?

This is the big problem for NSPS, a good idea 20 years to late.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on April 02, 2018, 17:36:38
More on US angle:
Quote
Coast Guard Leaders Are Swinging for the Fences

After years of bemoaning its insufficient budget levels, the Coast Guard is pushing for a major spending increase in fiscal year 2019.

In his recent State of the Coast Guard address, Commandant Adm. Paul Zukunft used a baseball analogy to explain the service’s new approach to seeking funding.

“I directed my senior leaders to abandon a … bunt stance when it comes to building our budget and approach the plate by swinging for the fences,” he said in his prepared remarks. “Seize the initiative.”

For 2019, the Coast Guard is requesting $11.7 billion, nearly $1 billion or 9 percent more than it requested for 2018. That amount is about $1 billion more than was enacted in 2017.

The spending request for its procurement, construction and improvements account jumped 58 percent, from $1.2 billion to $1.9 billion. About $1.5 billion would go toward new vessels including $750 million for detail design and construction of new polar icebreakers, according to a Coast Guard fact sheet. The service recently released to industry a request for proposals for a new icebreaker, with the first one slated for delivery in 2023. ...
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2018/4/2/coast-guard-leaders-are-swinging-for-the-fences

Poor CCG.

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on May 07, 2018, 13:20:24
Compare costs of planned USCG icebreakers with the one from Seaspan planned for CCG (good luck with cost and delivery date):

1) USCG:

Quote
...
The following is the April 18, 2018 Congressional Research Service report, Coast Guard Polar Icebreaker Modernization: Background and Issues for Congress.

...The Coast Guard wants to begin construction of the first new heavy polar icebreaker in FY2019 and have it enter service in 2023...

The acquisition cost of a new heavy polar icebreaker had earlier been estimated informally at roughly $1 billion, but the Coast Guard and Navy now believe that three heavy polar icebreakers could be acquired for a total cost of about $2.1 billion, or an average of about $700 million per ship. The first ship will cost more than the other two because it will incorporate design costs for the class and be at the start of the production learning curve for the class. An April 13, 2018, Government Accountability Office (GAO) report on the polar icebreaker program states that the Coast Guard has reduced its estimated cost for the first heavy polar icebreaker to less than $900 million, which would imply an average cost of something more than $600 million each for the second and third icebreakers...
https://news.usni.org/2018/05/03/report-congress-coast-guard-icebreaker-program-2

2) CCG:

Quote
...
[DFO 2017-18] Status report on transformational and Major Crown Projects
...
Polar Icebreaker Project
...
    2021- Contract award for construction; and
    2024- Delivery of Polar Icebreaker.

Progress report and explanation of variances: Federal Budgets 2008 and 2012 allocated funding for the procurement of Canada’s first polar icebreaker. Total funding of $1,297.8 million has been earmarked for the execution of this project...
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2017-18/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html

Poor Canada.

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: YZT580 on May 07, 2018, 15:46:46
Don't see a huge difference.  Am I missing something?  The figure works out to around 1 billion U.S. and if you figure in the operating costs over the ship's life there doesn't appear to be much discrepancy
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on May 07, 2018, 17:27:07
YZT580: USCG icebreakers work out, at US$700 million each, to C$900 million.  Whereas the one CCG ship is notionally priced at C$1.3 million (and most likely to cost more, by the way these are all just acquisition costs).

Makes no sense to build by Seaspan and probably could get much cheaper than in US from Finnish yard.

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on May 07, 2018, 17:36:03
Your assuming the US prices are based on reality, they have not built an icebreaker since the 90's and we have seen how well they have done on other programs.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on May 07, 2018, 18:03:31
Colin P: 

Quote
Your assuming the US prices are based on reality, they have not built an icebreaker since the 90's and we have seen how well they have done on other programs.

Same applies to our shipbuilding in spades  ;).

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: jmt18325 on May 08, 2018, 00:00:41
Your assuming the US prices are based on reality, they have not built an icebreaker since the 90's and we have seen how well they have done on other programs.

It also assumes the same accounting method (a bad assumption).
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: YZT580 on May 08, 2018, 10:47:04
Accounting differences was the reason for my question.  But we can resolve the icebreaker impasse very quickly through a leasing arrangement with at least two options available.  With that problem postponed Seaspan can start work on the replenishment ships and get that on the way to being resolved and then re-schedule new ice breakers on their completion.  That is one solution and I am sure there are others.  The only hang up is getting Ottawa to actually make a decision instead of punting it into the future and with the re-incarnation of Mr. Dithers at the helm that is unlikely.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on May 08, 2018, 11:47:23
Colin P: 

Same applies to our shipbuilding in spades  ;).

Mark
Ottawa

I think our program is farther along in the reality curve, however they have advantages of many yards already capable to build, where we worked hard to dismantle almost every yard that could build ships and now need to rebuild that capability.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Uzlu on June 05, 2018, 08:33:48
Quote
Canada now seeks only three converted icebreakers

Public Services and Procurement Canada (PSPC) is in negotiations with Federal Fleet Services and Chantier Davie for the conversion of three modern icebreakers for the Canadian Coast Guard (CCG), PSPC confirmed to Jane’s on 1 June.

PSPC had initially sought four of the ships.

Federal Fleet has been in negotiations with the Canadian government since January, after proposing its Project Resolute as a solution to replace the CCG’s icebreakers, which have been in service on average for 35 years or more. These icebreakers are plagued by breakdowns, reducing the number of days they are operational and causing numerous ice-related difficulties on the St Lawrence River during the winter.
http://www.janes.com/article/80612/canada-now-seeks-only-three-converted-icebreakers
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Uzlu on June 06, 2018, 08:35:30
Quote
Feds close to deal with Davie for icebreakers

OTTAWA — The federal government is close to a deal with Davie Shipbuilding that would see the Quebec shipyard provide several used icebreakers to bolster the Canadian Coast Guard's own aging fleet.

While final details are still being worked out, sources have told The Canadian Press that an agreement is imminent after months of intense — and at times contentious — closed-door negotiations.

The pending deal represents a win for Davie and the Quebec government, both of which have been demanding more federal work for the shipbuilder after it laid off 800 workers at its shipyard in Levis late last year.

It is not, however, exactly what Davie originally proposed: the company wanted to convert three medium icebreakers and one heavy vessel and lease them to the coast guard, whose own fleet is nearing the end of its useful life.

The company will still do conversion work on the three medium icebreakers, sources say, but the coast guard will take full ownership of the vessels instead of leasing them.

The two sides also remain far apart on the heavy icebreaker, which Davie has been pushing hard despite strong reticence from senior coast guard officials who say it does not meet their needs.

The federal shipbuilding strategy does already include plans for one heavy icebreaker, the Canadian Coast Guard ship John G. Diefenbaker, which could explain the coast guard's hesitation, said University of Calgary professor Rob Huebert.

"A lot of effort went into the design of the Diefenbaker," said Huebert, who has worked extensively with the coast guard. "If I was the coast guard, I would be terrified that if I got the Davie ship, I would not get the Diefenbaker."

Diefenbaker, however, isn't due to be delivered until the mid-2020s, at the earliest.

Word of the pending deal comes in the face of even more bad news for the coast guard's existing icebreakers, which are on average more than 35 years old and have lost hundreds of operational days in recent years due to mechanical breakdowns.

The most recent headache came in late April, when CCGS Terry Fox ran aground near Bide Arm, N.L.

The vessel sailed back to St. John's under its own power, an official said, where repairs were conducted on two holes in its hull, but it was later determined that more work would be required to get it back into service.

That leaves the 49-year-old CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent as the coast guard's only heavy icebreaker until the Terry Fox is up and operational again, though coast guard commissioner Jeffery Hutchinson said the service could cover for it.

"It will be back in service as part of our Arctic program this summer," Hutchinson told a parliamentary committee on Tuesday, "and we're able to cover all Arctic requirements in our program by reallocating resources internally."

But coast guard officials have conceded for years that they need additional icebreakers to supplement their fleet, and suggested they could turn to novel solutions such as leasing vessels or hiring private companies to help them.

"We're stuck in this kind of limbo with the coast guard where their vessels keep getting longer in the tooth and what they need to do just keeps going up and up and up," said Huebert.

"There is a dire need for them getting some modernized icebreakers. No question about it."

The negotiations between the federal government and Davie have nonetheless been steeped in politics.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau surprised many, including the Canadian Coast Guard and Davie itself, when he announced the launch of talks while visiting Quebec City in January.

The announcement followed concerns about the current icebreaker fleet, but also an intense lobbying campaign by Davie as well as the Quebec government and federal opposition parties on the shipyard's behalf.

It also coincided with an RCMP investigation into allegations Vice-Admiral Mark Norman leaked cabinet secrets to Davie to keep the Liberals from cancelling a $700-million contract to provide the navy with an interim support ship.

Norman was suspended as the military's second-in-command last year and charged with breach of trust this past March. He has denied any wrongdoing and vowed to fight the charge in court.

Most of the work on the interim support ship was finished late last year, at which point Davie laid off 800 workers; the shipyard says it did not have enough work for them, but that it is hoping to hire some back for the icebreakers.

Davie initially proposed leasing icebreakers to the coast guard in April 2016, after acquiring the rights to four vessels that were destined for use in Alaska's offshore oil and gas industry until a downturn in the market.
https://www.insidehalton.com/news-story/8652564-feds-close-to-deal-with-davie-for-icebreakers/
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Chief Engineer on June 06, 2018, 08:48:18
https://www.insidehalton.com/news-story/8652564-feds-close-to-deal-with-davie-for-icebreakers/

Maybe now they'll stop their whining.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on June 22, 2018, 18:14:22
About time, note purchase (real cheap) not lease--a lot of Quebec provincial and federal politics pushing this now:

Quote
Ottawa makes deal to buy three icebreakers for coast guard
Deal avoids major work slowdown, layoffs at the Davie shipyard ahead of Quebec provincial election

The Liberal government has concluded a deal with a Quebec shipyard to purchase, through a sole-source contract, three medium icebreakers to relieve pressure on the Canadian Coast Guard's aging fleet.

The agreement struck with Chantier Davie of Levis, Que., which operates the Davie shipyard, was announced Friday [June 22] in a release by Public Services and Procurement Canada.

No dollar figure was included in the statement, but sources close to the negotiations said that between the purchase and modification phase, the agreement could be worth just under $500 million [emphasis added].

Negotiations to acquire the vessels were launched in January after Prime Minister Justin Trudeau abruptly announced the plan in a Radio-Canada interview.

There has been growing concern in Quebec about not only the shipyard and its workforce of roughly 1,300, but about the coast guard's ability to break ice in the St. Lawrence River.

Competing shipyards will have two weeks to challenge the sole-source contract and demonstrate they can deliver ships with similar — or better — capabilities.

    Analysis
    Why the Liberals really don't want to talk about leasing icebreakers

    Aging icebreaker fleet raises concern in Quebec

When talks started with Davie, the federal government was looking to lease or buy four ships which would be converted from existing vessels. Those vessels had been intended for use in Alaska's offshore oil and gas industry until there was a downturn in the market.

The deal that was struck involves a straight-up purchase of three icebreakers, with the Davie yard set to complete a series of modifications, said the sources.
Contract bound to raise questions

It's a significant deal on political, legal and corporate levels.

The agreement avoids a major work slowdown at the yard — and the resulting layoffs — ahead of a provincial election which will see the Liberal government of Quebec Premier Philippe Couillard fighting for its life.

The contract also is bound to raise questions about the National Shipbuilding Strategy, which was introduced by the former Conservative government and championed by the Liberals since they came to power in 2015.

The Davie shipyard was in bankruptcy when the strategy was announced — so it was excluded from the NSS, which has seen Ottawa form a special relationship with Irving Shipbuilding in Halifax and Seaspan of Vancouver. Irving and Seaspan are the go-to companies for federal ship construction.

    Federal government looks to lease icebreakers from Quebec shipyard Davie

    Quebec ports could lose business if aging icebreakers not replaced, documents warn

The coast guard's new heavy icebreaker is supposed to be built by Seaspan, but the project is still years away from construction [emphasis added]...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/coast-guard-icebreakers-davie-1.4718592

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on June 22, 2018, 18:39:59
Gov't news release:

Quote
Canada to Acquire Three Interim [when buying them, not leasing?] Icebreakers
...
The Government of Canada is committed to providing the women and men of the Canadian Coast Guard with the equipment they need to keep Canadian waters safe, while supporting economic growth.

On behalf of the Canadian Coast Guard, Public Services and Procurement Canada has issued an Advanced Contract Award Notice (ACAN) to Chantier Davie of Lévis, Quebec, for the acquisition and conversion of three medium commercial icebreakers.  This ensures a fair, competitive process allowing any supplier with a comparable option to also submit a proposal before a contract is awarded.

The ACAN confirms Canada’s intention to enter into a contract with Chantier Davie. Other interested suppliers have 15 calendar days to signal their interest in bidding for this contract, by submitting a “statement of capabilities” that meets the requirements laid out in the ACAN.

These ships would provide interim capability for the Canadian Coast Guard, while replacement vessels  are being built under the National Shipbuilding Strategy [emphasis added--plural? only one planned, years away from delivery by Seaspan]. Icebreakers are essential to ensuring that Canadian ports remain open during Canada’s ice seasons, ensuring goods such as fresh produce and fuel are delivered safely...

Quick facts

    This acquisition will consist of purchasing a class of three existing Anchor Handling Tug Supply icebreakers [emphasis added, definition would be nice].

    These ships will be used to backfill for Canadian Coast Guard vessels while they are undergoing maintenance, refit and vessel life extension.

    These ships will conduct critical icebreaking duties for the Southern wintertime program and are to be deployed as needed in support of Arctic summertime programs.

    The first ship will be put to immediate use for icebreaking during the upcoming 2018-2019 season...
https://www.canada.ca/en/public-services-procurement/news/2018/06/canada-to-acquire-three-interim-icebreakers.html

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Swampbuggy on June 22, 2018, 19:53:06
What’s the issue with AIVIQ? It hasn’t been mentioned in any way since the PM announced his surprise.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Uzlu on June 23, 2018, 15:53:29
What’s the issue with AIVIQ? It hasn’t been mentioned in any way since the PM announced his surprise.
There might not be anything wrong with the icebreaker.
Quote
The two sides also remain far apart on the heavy icebreaker, which Davie has been pushing hard despite strong reticence from senior coast guard officials who say it does not meet their needs.

The federal shipbuilding strategy does include plans for one heavy icebreaker, the Canadian Coast Guard ship John G. Diefenbaker, which could explain the coast guard's hesitation, said University of Calgary professor Rob Huebert.

"A lot of effort went into the design of the Diefenbaker," said Huebert, who has worked extensively with the coast guard. "If I was the coast guard, I would be terrified that if I got the Davie ship, I would not get the Diefenbaker."
https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/feds-close-to-deal-with-quebec-shipyard-davie-for-coast-guard-icebreakers-1.3960465
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Swampbuggy on June 23, 2018, 16:22:59
There might not be anything wrong with the icebreaker.https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/feds-close-to-deal-with-quebec-shipyard-davie-for-coast-guard-icebreakers-1.3960465

I was under the impression that AIVIQ is more in line with TERRY FOX or LOUIS ST LAURENT and as such, doesn’t have the same capability as DIEFENBAKER. It should be complimentary to the heavy ice breaker, not a replacement for it. I guess I understand their fears, but it’s not like we couldn’t use more than one or two top tier icebreakers.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on June 23, 2018, 17:53:26
1) More on Davie's Aiviq here:
http://www.davie.ca/pdf/Aiviq.pdf

From a tweet:

Quote
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DL9mrYzXUAEjt11.jpg)
https://twitter.com/chantierdavie/status/918565826650890240

2) Will Finland's Arctia contest the sole-source to Davie within the 15-day ACAN window? CETA with EU implications? From January this year:

Quote
Arctia Ltd. ready to support Canada\

The Finnish shipowner Arctia Ltd. is moving forward to support Canada in icebreaking and towing services. The company has responded to the Canadian Government’s Request for Information and Industry Consultation for Interim Icebreaking and Towing Capability for the Canadian Coast Guard, and continues to follow the tendering process. Arctia’s purpose-built icebreaker fleet is promptly available, and can serve the Canadian industry and Arctic communities within weeks.

(https://static.vesselfinder.net/images/media/7219622dd9b999629980807186ee6387.jpg)

“We were quite surprised yesterday reading the news stating that negotiations will be launched with one interested supplier for the conversion and lease of existing supply vessels. We have understood that the open tender for interim icebreaking services is still open and does not cover any conversion costs“, states Tero Vauraste, the President and CEO of Arctia Ltd.

Arctia Ltd. participates in the Canadian Government’s tender for interim icebreaking solutions. The company is ready to charter its icebreakers to the Canadian Coast Guard and explore cooperative solutions to help Canada avoid the so-called icebreaker gap within the formal purchasing process. The Government’s public tender issued in November 2016 states that the Canadian Coast Guard may require additional icebreaking capacity provided by one (1) to five (5) icebreakers at various times over the next number of years.

    “We have extensive experience in the North American Arctic. All our icebreakers have diesel-electric propulsion and they are designed specifically for challenging and long-lasting icebreaking operations. They need no conversion for operations in the Canadian Arctic. This is a clear advantage compared to our competitors. We are the only operator in the world that can provide multiple powerful heavy and medium heavy polar class icebreakers promptly and on a commercial basis“, Vauraste explains.

Arctia Ltd. is a Finnish shipowner specialized in icebreaking, ice management and towing. The company currently has eight icebreakers in its fleet, including IB Polaris, the first Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) powered icebreaker in the world. Finnish multipurpose icebreakers have been proven effective in the Canadian Arctic. Just this July, the Finnish MSV Nordica transited the Northwest Passage (NWP) from Vancouver, Canada, to Nuuk, Greenland, in 24 days with researchers and a Canadian Coast Guard officer on board. This transit set the record for the earliest crossing of the NWP. The Nordica now holds the records for both the earliest and latest season transits of the NWP.

Along with the Nordica, its sister vessel MSV Fennica has served in ice management tasks in the Beaufort and Chukchi Seas in 2007 and from 2012 to 2015. Arctia’s converted IB Otso has worked on the north-eastern coast of Greenland...
https://www.vesselfinder.com/news/11295-Arctia-Ltd-ready-to-support-Canada

Mark
Ottawa

Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Uzlu on July 09, 2018, 21:17:39
Quote
Politics at play in major shipbuilding contract that could land in Quebec

The federal government is looking to a Quebec company for a major shipbuilding contract, but a competitor is questioning the backroom politics behind who gets the job.

The contract is to convert three used ships from Norway and the United States into icebreakers. Levis’ Davie Shipyards is vying for the contract.

“The only company in the world that can fit all these criteria is Davie,” said the company’s VP of Public Affairs Frederik Boisvert.

However, competing company Fednav, Canada’s largest ocean-going cargo shipper, said it wants to build several brand new icebreakers in Norway, where they said shipbuilding is more efficient.

“It’s about having built an assembly line effectively and perfecting something,” said Fednav CEO Paul Pathy.

Canada’s current fleet of icebreakers is aging and Pathy questioned the federal government’s practice of stretching the ships’ lifespan.

“Right now, there are no heavy icebreakers available because they’re all on layup because they’re so old,” he said. “They keep being renewed and renewed and renewed.”

The oft-ice clogged St. Lawrence River and the Great Lakes – St-Lawrence Seaway is the source of $35 billion a year in revenue and 225,000 jobs in Canada and the U.S., making the presence of icebreakers essential for the Canadian economy.

University of British Columbia professor Michael Byers said the government can’t ignore the benefits of building ships in Canada.

“The shipworkers here in Canada pay taxes, they buy homes, they buy cars, they buy groceries,” he said.

But Aaron Wudrick of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation said Ottawa must make decisions based on the best deal.

“We need to get the best icebreaker for the lowest price and not worry about where it’s being built,” he said.

The federal procurement ministry did not respond to requests for comment by deadline. A decision on the contract is expected on July 11.
https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/politics-at-play-in-major-shipbuilding-contract-that-could-land-in-quebec-1.4005945
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on July 14, 2018, 15:26:33
Sure could use those Davie-converted icebreakers, at very least--this old one (built 1985) off to help resupply USAF base at Thule, Greenland, amongst other things:

Quote
Canadian Coast Guard Ship Samuel Risley departs for its first-ever Arctic mission

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dh_5oFnXkAAvUGv.jpg)

The Canadian Coast Guard’s annual Arctic operational season is underway and includes a maiden voyage to the Arctic by the Canadian Coast Guard Ship Samuel Risley.

CCGS Samuel Risley departed Quebec City today with 25 officers and crew on board.

Their first task will be to support the annual resupply mission for the United States Air Base at Thule Greenland.   “My crew and I will be doing the Operation Pacer Goose mission [emphasis added].  We are very much looking forward to seeing and working on the rugged west coast of Greenland, a place few people ever get to experience,” said Captain John Cork, who is in command of CCGS Samuel Risley for the first month of its eight week Arctic mission.  “This is a wonderful opportunity for the crew, and personally I am thrilled to have this as my last assignment before I retire after 34 years with the Canadian Coast Guard”.

1200 kilometres north of the Arctic Circle, Thule is locked in by ice about nine months out of the year.  Icebreaking service is needed to allow for a rapid resupply of food, fuel, construction materials and cargo.  After Thule CCGS Samuel Risley will transit to the eastern Canadian Arctic and the waters of Baffin Bay, the Hudson Strait and northern Hudson Bay.

Captain Signe Gotfredsen notes her crew members are truly looking forward to providing Coast Guard service in the north.  Captain Gotfredsen will assume command of the ship during the second half of this mission. “For a number of the crew, this will be their first time plying Arctic waters, so there is a sense of exploration onboard,”  said Captain Gotfredsen.  “Some of our preparation time has been spent on training including Indigenous Engagement, helicopter slinging operations and environmental response.”

CCGS Samuel Risley joined the Coast Guard fleet in the fall of 1985 [2000 t. https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:380038/mmsi:316001890/imo:8322442/vessel:SAMUEL_RISLEY ]. During most of the navigational season the ship operates out of the Canadian Coast Guard base in Parry Sound Ontario. The vessel is multi-tasked and in addition to its icebreaking and aids to navigation duties on the Great Lakes it has also served on Canada’s east coast [emphasis added].

The Canadian Coast Guard’s Arctic operational season will run into late November, providing extended vessel presence in the Arctic under investments from the $1.5-billion Oceans Protection Plan.

CCGS Samuel Risley joins other coast guard ships serving the Arctic this year including CCGS Amundsen, CCGS Martha L. Black, CCGS Pierre Radisson, CCGS Sir Wilfrid Laurier, CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent and CCGS Henry Larsen.
http://www.manitoulin.ca/2018/07/12/canadian-coast-guard-ship-samuel-risley-departs-for-its-first-ever-arctic-mission/

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on July 16, 2018, 01:18:26
All of those ships were in service when I joined in 1990 and will still be active when I retire 2019........
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 02, 2018, 14:00:02
CCG can only look on in envy--but this is only authorization, Congress still has to appropriate funds:

Quote
National Defense [Authorization] Act has heavy Arctic focus

...The U.S. Coast Guard has only two [icebreakers]--and one of them is 10 years beyond its intended use.

The bill passed Wednesday authorizes six new icebreakers.

“For the first time ever, the NDAA includes an authorization of up to six heavy, polar-class icebreakers for the U.S. Coast Guard – something that is long overdue,” said Senator Dan Sullivan (R - Alaska)...

Authorization of Six Heavy Polar-Class Icebreakers: The FY19 NDAA includes a provision secured by Senator Sullivan to authorize up to six heavy, polar-class icebreakers for the U.S. Coast Guard. In addition, this provision expresses Congress’ belief that the first new icebreaker should be delivered no later than Fiscal Year 2023, the next two by FY 2026, and the final three by FY 2029...
http://www.ktva.com/story/38793068/national-defense-act-has-heavy-arctic-focus

Useful cautionary tweet:

Quote
Rob Levinson
‏@levinsor

A plea. Please stop referring to the NDAA as a spending bill. I realize that the difference between authorization and appropriation is pretty wonky but it does matter. The NDAA matters for policy but many things that get authorized don't necessarily get funded.
https://twitter.com/levinsor/status/1025004264425435136

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on August 02, 2018, 21:17:49
The Aiviq has been discussed elsewhere in the thread, but it doesn't look like the other three "new" icebreakers have been mentioned.

Vidar viking

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidar_Viking

Tor viking

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_Viking

Baldor viking

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balder_Viking

The Norwegians build a good ship, and Viking is a reputable operator, so they should be good boats, but I hope they're getting a good price, as all three are pushing 20 years old!
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 02, 2018, 21:48:39
Well, it's Canada--why buy new (built here at stupid price when one could buy abroad) rather than refurbish? Cf. RAAF Hornets, eh?

Too silly. And all politics all the time and the public/voters/media do not care.

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Xylric on August 09, 2018, 04:15:00
My grandfather's grandfather was originally employed at a Royal Navy shipyard somewhere in Scotland, and moved to Nova Scotia once those shut down. The yards he was a shipwright for after he arrived in Canada were at one time the largest in Canada. He would be most put out to know they're pretty much sitting idle these days - even my grandfather was, but that's probably because he was *from* the town surrounding them.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 10, 2018, 14:18:14
Official release--finally contract with Davie for three icebreaking ship conversions--if vessels are capable and have serious life in service then sure looks a lot cheaper and more effective than doing all the building here:

Quote
Government of Canada awards contract to enhance Canadian Coast Guard icebreaking capability, securing middle class jobs in Quebec
...
August 10, 2018 – Lévis (Quebec) – Public Services and Procurement Canada

The Government of Canada is committed to providing the Canadian Coast Guard with the equipment it needs to carry out its important work, while providing economic opportunities for the Canadian marine sector. The purchase of three medium commercial icebreakers will help to ensure continuity of service for Coast Guard clients and the safe passage of marine traffic through Canada’s waterways.

Following a fair, open and transparent process that included extensive industry engagement, Public Services and Procurement Canada, on behalf of the Canadian Coast Guard, has awarded a $610-million contract to Chantier Davie, of Lévis, Quebec for the acquisition of three icebreakers and work to prepare the first ship for service in the Canadian Coast Guard.

Further costs will be known once the Government of Canada has examined the vessels and determined what work is required to prepare them for service.

This contract will help to secure up to 200 well-paying middle class jobs at Chantier Davie.

The first vessel is expected to begin operations for the upcoming icebreaking season, beginning in December 2018. The second and third vessels will be converted, refit and available to support Coast Guard programs by the summer of 2019 and the winter of 2019-2020, respectively.

This contract follows an Advance Contract Award Notice that was issued on June 22, 2018...

[Tee hee] These ships will supplement the Coast Guard’s existing fleet while they undergo refits and repairs. They will conduct critical missions such as icebreaking duties for the Southern wintertime program and will be deployed as needed in support of Arctic summertime programs...
https://www.canada.ca/en/public-services-procurement/news/2018/08/government-of-canada-awards-contract-to-enhance-canadian-coast-guard-icebreaking-capability-securing-middle-class-jobs-in-quebec.html

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: tomahawk6 on August 10, 2018, 17:15:36
Saw this vessel online and thought it might be a nice addition and it has a helo deck..

http://www.workboatsinternational.com/ice-classed-antarctic-supply-vessel-for-sale-asv3647.html 

Built:
1986 / UK Ferguson

Class:
BV Ice Class A1 Super / Special Service
LOA:
65.5
LBP:
58.33
Beam:
12.80
Depth:
5.35
Draft:
4.78
Main Engines:
2 x Miirlees Blackstone 8MB275 Marine Diesel Engines
Power:
2 x 2,300 kW
Auxiliary Engines:
3 x 300 kW Caterpillar 3408
Propulsion:
2 x Variable Pitch Propellers
Thruster:
1 x 500 BHP Bow Thruster
Maximum Speed:
14.2 knots
Crane:
swl 32 t

Rear A Frame:
20 Ton
Passenger capacity:
50 persons in 13 cabins
Crew:
5 Officers / 12 Total
Aviation Facilities:
Helideck for Lama or Ecureuil type Helicopters

DECK SPACE
Cargo Deck:
320 m2
Helideck:
162 m2 | Access to
Cargo Deck:
10.5 m x 3.7 m | Over Cargo
Deck:
160 m2
Price: Best Offers ( Can Guide Named Buyers)
Location: South Pacific
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on August 10, 2018, 19:12:25
Official release--finally contract with Davie for three icebreaking ship conversions--if vessels are capable and have serious life in service then sure looks a lot cheaper and more effective than doing all the building here:

Mark
Ottawa

It's a good start, but they already have half their lives well lived. However, since about six River icebreakers need replacements, they can stop the gap before three new ones can be bought and come in service (about 12 to 15 years if you start the design and contracting process now) to replace the three oldest ones on hand and then continue up to six to replace those stop gap ones over the following six to eight years. This way, you would replace the River fleet in eighteen to twenty years with no icebreaker getting over the age of forty and most being replaced at around age 35. That would be an incredible achievement for the Canadian government.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 10, 2018, 20:27:30
Some (all?) for Davie? What the Conservative gov't allocated to Seaspan in 2013, to be built some never never land day (later was decided the one polar icebreaker would follow the two JSS--that icebreaking vessel now supposedly mid-2020s):

Quote
Canadian Coast Guard Shocker – Ten (maybe) New Serious Vessels
...
"VANCOUVER, British Columbia, October 7, 2013 – The Honourable Diane Finley, Minister of Public Works and Government Services, joined by the Honourable James Moore, Minister of Industry and Regional Minister for British Columbia, today announced that Vancouver Shipyards will be building up to 10 additional large non-combat ships [backgrounder at link] for the Canadian Coast Guard fleet at an estimated cost of $3.3 billion [that's $330 million each, people)...

This significant investment will enable the Coast Guard to acquire up to five Medium Endurance Multi-Tasked Vessels and up to five Offshore Patrol Vessels…"

...Let’s just hope things proceed fairly smoothly from now on [SEEN NO MOVEMENT SINCE].
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2013/10/07/mark-collins-canadian-coast-guard-shocker-ten-maybe-new-serious-vessels/

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on August 10, 2018, 22:43:25
Saw this vessel online and thought it might be a nice addition and it has a helo deck..

Built:
1986 / UK Ferguson

It's 32 years old.

30 years is pretty much the end of reliable service life for any ocean going vessel.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 12, 2018, 20:47:46
Anglophone Canadian media pretty much ignore CCG procurements compared to those of CAF--even the, gasp, sole-source contract to Davie for three icebreaker conversions.  So far both

1) CBC
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/ottawa-will-allow-quebec-s-davie-shipyard-to-bid-on-national-shipbuilding-plan-contracts-1.4780836

and

2) CTV
https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/610-million-contract-awarded-to-convert-icebreakers-at-davie-shipyard-1.4048440

treat the acquisition as simply a Quebec story, not a national one.  And have seen nothing in print media.

Lack of serious media interest sure allows CCG procurements, including effective sole-sourcing of two new helicopter buys (more here https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2015/04/11/mark-collins-canadian-coast-guards-new-medium-lift-helos-sole-sourced-to-bell-canada/ ), to escape the sort of controversy that almost inevitably follows those of CAF. 

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 14, 2018, 12:27:40
Sale of the three icebreaking ships to Davie confirmed--note price in US$, so far gov't has said it will be paying Davie C$610 million:

Quote
Viking Supply [Norwegian-owned] confirms sale of icebreaking AHTS trio to Canada

Confirming the identities of the three vessels that Chantier Davie, Lévis, Quebec, is to convert to icebreakers for the Canadian Coast Guard (see earlier story) Viking Supply Ships AS, a wholly owned subsidiary of Sweden's Viking Supply Ships AB (VSS) said today that it has sold its three icebreakers, Tor Viking, Balder Viking and Vidar Viking to Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada.

In its fleet listings, Viking Supply Ships describes each of the ships as "Combined AHTS & Ice-breaker with DNV Ice-10 notation. Capable of operations in harsh environment offshore regions and Arctic/Sub-Arctic regions."

Impact on net result of the sale is estimated at $274 million [emphasis added] and will be booked in Q3. The transaction is expected to close by the end of August...

"The offshore supply market was very disappointing throughout the first half year, and the very weak market has caused both fixture rates and utilization to remain on unsatisfactory levels," says the company...

(https://www.marinelog.com/media/k2/items/cache/08b2fd2098360dd29f1acf308375b89d_XL.jpg?t=943938000)
https://www.marinelog.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=30090:viking-supply-confirms-sale-of-icebreaking-ahts-trio-to-canada&Itemid=257

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: garb811 on August 14, 2018, 13:02:34
Colour me confused but...

When I read this in the original release:
Quote
Following a fair, open and transparent process that included extensive industry engagement, Public Services and Procurement Canada, on behalf of the Canadian Coast Guard, has awarded a $610-million contract to Chantier Davie, of Lévis, Quebec for the acquisition of three icebreakers and work to prepare the first ship for service in the Canadian Coast Guard.
I interpreted the $610mil to be inclusive of the cost of the ships proper via Davie.

Yet the article just posted by Mark states the vessels had been sold to "Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada."

So, I take it this means the $610mil to Davies is for overhaul/fit up etc only and the Govt has bought the ships direct, making the actual cost in the vicinity of $1 billion, once currency conversion is factored in?
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on August 14, 2018, 16:14:32
We may be over paying a touch...

Usual day rate for a vessel like this in today's market is going to be maybe $20-40k CND.

Even on the very generous end of $40k,  that's about $14.5 million per year to charter a decent size anchor handler.

I hope this price is including substantial life extension upfront...

A crane and a hang are not really that expensive.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: YZT580 on August 14, 2018, 19:08:44
But it keeps Davies in business
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 16, 2018, 22:43:21
Over to you, Colin P. on Seaspan's OFSVs for CCG:

Quote
Shipbuilding program hits snag as inspection finds defective welds in hull

'Defects ... are far from uncommon in shipbuilding,' says Seaspan spokesman

The first civilian ship built under the federal government's marquee shipbuilding program will have portions of its hull re-welded because an inspection has uncovered a series of defective joints, CBC News has learned.

Up to 44 metres of welds on the Canadian Coast Guard Ship Sir John Franklin — which was launched only last December and has not yet entered service — will be repaired before it is handed over to the federal government early next year.

It is one of three offshore fisheries science vessels being constructed by Seaspan in Vancouver. All three vessels were found to have the same defect — meaning all three will have to be re-welded in spots before entering service.

The company is still investigating how the faults happened, with the help of outside experts.

But officials downplayed the significance, saying welding problems occur on all projects and the extent of the overhaul represents just under five per cent of the joints on the Sir John Franklin.

"While defects are unwelcome, they are far from uncommon in shipbuilding," said Tim Page, vice-president of government relations at Seaspan.

It is a setback for the $687 million program and it comes as the federal government considers a "refresh" of its shipbuilding policy.

It also could provide new ammunition for critics who have argued the federal government should be buying more of its ships offshore at more experienced construction yards...
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/shipbuilding-coast-guard-welds-1.4788322

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on August 20, 2018, 17:39:53

I am happy that they found them now and not later like almost every other government vessel. I can think of 3 vessel types where the welding was so bad the initial contracts were cancelled after the first or 2nd built, 70' Point class, 41' utility class, 47' Cape class cutters. Then there was the Landing/fuel barges, some of the worst welds I have every seen on vessel and one of the poorest designs as well. It seems like Seaspan has stepped up and committed to repair it and likely will go after the manufacturer of the welding machine if the problem can be traced back to them. Embarrassing for sure, I wish it had not happened, but I am pleased the inspection process is good enough to catch it. 44m of welds sound like a lot, but it's not. A 10x10m compartment could easily have 96m of welds if not more.
From the article;

"will be repaired before it is handed over to the federal government early next year."The microscopic welding cracks initially were discovered three months ago on one of the science vessels, which is still under construction in North Vancouver."

snip
"A coast guard team monitoring construction flagged the issue as part of a detailed review, the company acknowledged.

It was spotted after the first two ships, including the Franklin, had passed their initial inspections. Subsequent retesting on all three vessels turned up the same fault.

The defects were traced to a semi-automated welding system installed as part of the shipyard's multi-million dollar upgrade."

Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on August 27, 2018, 15:52:10
Davie reports the Viking vessels have arrived

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DlnsuTAXgAAVFlc.jpg:large)
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Uzlu on October 23, 2018, 09:02:14
Quote
'Interim' icebreakers to be used for decades

OTTAWA — The Canadian Coast Guard says three "interim" icebreakers that were recently purchased without a competition will be used for the next 15 to 20 years.

Coast guard officials revealed the timeframe in interviews with The Canadian Press while playing down concerns about the state of their aging fleet — and the challenges in building replacements.

The government in August agreed to sole-sourcing the purchase of three used icebreakers from Davie Shipbuilding for $610 million, saying a stop-gap was needed until replacements could be built.

The deal represented a win for the Quebec-based shipyard, which had been lobbying hard for additional federal work, and should ease pressure on the coast guard's icebreaking fleet.

The coast guard's existing vessels are on average more than 35 years old and have lost hundreds of operational days over the past few years due to mechanical breakdowns.

Yet there are no immediate plans to replace them; the government's multibillion-dollar shipbuilding plan includes only one new heavy icebreaker, which won't be ready until the next decade.

Deputy Commissioner Andy Smith said the coast guard is instead in the midst of extending the life of its current fleet another 20 years — during which it will rely on the Davie ships to fill any gaps.

"The icebreakers that we recently purchased were envisioned to backfill behind those various ships as we put them into a refit or an extended maintenance period," Smith said in an interview.

"And we have mapped that out over 20 years."

Assistant Commissioner Mario Pelletier confirmed that time period in a separate interview, saying: "I would expect that we're going to have them for 15, 20 years.

"The urgent need is just to make sure we do have a surge capacity to backfill when those ships come out of service," he added.

While few would argue the need for additional icebreakers, the timeline has nevertheless resulted in fresh criticism of the country's procurement system — and questions about the shipbuilding plan.

The federal government previously purchased "interim" icebreakers in the 1980s and those vessels are still in use, said Rob Huebert, an expert on the Arctic at the University of Calgary.

That, plus the absence of any real plan to replace the majority of the coast guard's icebreakers, leads Huebert to believe the three Davie ships will eventually become part of the permanent fleet.

"What's going to happen is we have been overworking our three medium icebreakers and those three (Davie ships) will replace them even though no one is saying they're replacing them," he said.

The two Canadian Coast Guard officials both insisted that the Davie deal would not undercut the shipbuilding plan, through which Vancouver Shipyards is building several coast guard ships.

Those include three fisheries-science ships, an ocean-science vessel and a heavy icebreaker, in that order. Two naval support ships will be built between the ocean-science vessel and the icebreaker.

But defence analyst David Perry of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute wondered whether calling the Davie deal an "interim" measure was intended to sidestep the plan — and any legal trouble.

Either way, he said, the arrangement only underscores many of the enduring issues facing Canada's troubled procurement system and the long amount of time it takes to buy new equipment.

"If they're defining an interim period being up to 20 years, only in Canada is that considered an interim basis," he said, noting that the shipbuilding plan is already years behind schedule.

"Only in a country where you run things for 40-plus years is two decades a temporary solution."

Smith and Pelletier said the current coast guard fleet is nonetheless in good shape and that there are positive signs of progress at Vancouver Shipbuilding, despite some hiccups.

Those included a welding problem discovered on the three fisheries-science ships that has pushed back delivery of the first of those vessels until next year.

The design and budget for the ocean-science ship also remains up in the air, while the construction schedule for the navy support ships and heavy icebreaker remain in limbo.

"It's really a dynamic time as we look to regrow the whole ecosystem of shipbuilding in this country, and they are in various stages of design and construction," Smith said of the challenges.

"So that whole ecosystem is being rebuilt."
https://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/news-story/8982113--interim-icebreakers-to-be-used-for-decades/
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: YZT580 on October 23, 2018, 11:06:33
Interim doesn't just apply to ships either in our government's method of working.  In 1969 I can recall attending meetings in temporary building no. 4 (yes that was its name).  Temp. 4 was put up during WW2 and intended only for the duration.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on October 25, 2018, 11:58:29
Let's create a "new zone" that does not have any resources. Currently all the resources (ships and crews) come from the South and have tasks down there as well. Must be an election coming....

https://panow.com/article/796062/canadian-coast-guard-increase-focus-arctic-new-zone

Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Chris Pook on October 25, 2018, 12:49:26
The most infamous "interim" measure of all

http://wartimecanada.ca/document/world-war-i/taxation/income-tax-1917
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 08, 2018, 12:27:43
On. And on. And on:

Quote
Coast guard looks to squeeze more years from oldest ship
55-year-old science vessel CCGS Hudson will be around for at least 5 more years

The Canadian Coast Guard plans to squeeze another five years of service, and maybe more, out of the oldest vessel in its fleet.

The 55-year-old science vessel Hudson [details at CCG https://inter-j01.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fdat/vessels/71 ] is one more example of the uncertainty surrounding Canada's shipbuilding program.

CCGS Hudson was supposed to be replaced as early as 2014 as part of the National Shipbuilding Strategy. But the project to build the replacement at Vancouver's Seaspan shipyard still has no budget, confirmed construction start date or timeline for completion.

In the meantime, the Hudson is now expected to be in service until 2023 and possibly longer.

"At least, yes," said Mario Pelletier, the coast guard's deputy commissioner. "As we get closer to those dates we will look and … see if we need the ship around for a bit longer. We'll look at the work that needs to be done."

The goal, he said, is to keep the Hudson in operation until a new offshore oceanographic science vessel is delivered...

The coast guard is hoping a planned refit this winter will allow the Hudson to obtain regulatory approvals to keep it in service for another five-year cycle.

"What we are doing is resetting the clock and make sure she can last for the next five years, safely and reliably," Pelletier said.

Replacing the Hudson has been a sliding target since a new science vessel was promised by the Harper government in 2011.

By 2013, coast guard officials were predicting a replacement would be sailing in 2017. The cost then was estimated at $144 million.

The most recent federal government update on the project has a new vessel in service by late 2021 or early 2022. The budget, pegged at $331 million, is under review
[emphasis added]...

David Perry of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute is not surprised by the developments.

He said the timing of the Hudson replacement was thrown further into doubt earlier this year when Ottawa announced construction would soon begin on the Royal Canadian Navy joint-support vessel at Seaspan.

Seaspan was supposed to build the new offshore oceanographic science vessel first.

"It would seem the joint-support ship and the navy project is a bit more mature and ready to go," said Perry.

"If they are saying they are not expecting it (Hudson replacement) until 2023-24, that may mean it will come after the joint-support ships...

The coast guard said construction of the new vessel is expected to begin in 2019.

"The build contract is being negotiated which will determine the project schedule and ultimately the delivery date," Benoit Mayrand of coast guard communications said in a statement.

Nicolas Insley, Seaspan communications manager, added the contract will determine the cost and timeline for the vessel...
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/coast-guard-vessel-hudson-refit-replacement-shipbuilding-strategy-1.4887361

Mark
Ottawa

Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on November 08, 2018, 12:32:39
Atlantic Eagle is now at the CCG Dock in Victoria, not sure how they plan to man it, if they don't use a Master from out here, then they need a pilot everywhere she goes.

(https://lazerone.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/ut722l-atlantic-eagle.png)
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 08, 2018, 14:59:14
Did they paint the Eagle red?

The Raven is still Atlantic Towing orange, but they added a big white coast Guard style stripe.

Not sure what the cradles on deck were for, but there were extra bollards welded on either side of the stern roller for the canal passage.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on November 08, 2018, 15:00:58
adds 2.3 kts......  8)
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 08, 2018, 15:31:15
Atlantic Eagle is now at the CCG Dock in Victoria, not sure how they plan to man it, if they don't use a Master from out here, then they need a pilot everywhere she goes out.

Doesn't have to be the master, as long as there's a qualified pilot on board for the harbour.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on November 08, 2018, 16:55:23
yes but if they start patrolling this coast, then they need a qualified Master and since none of Irving guys work out here that I am aware of, they need a new Master, as they could not afford a pilot 24/7.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 08, 2018, 17:24:20
yes but if they start patrolling this coast, then they need a qualified Master and since none of Irving guys work out here that I am aware of, they need a new Master, as they could not afford a pilot 24/7.

Doesn't need to be the master though, could be another officer or could be a coast Guard officer attached to the vessel.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on November 08, 2018, 17:55:47
If it meets the Pilotage regs, the exemption applies to Master not to the ship. https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._1270/FullText.html

(3) Subject to subsections (4) to (6), the Authority may waive compulsory pilotage in respect of a ship under 10 000 gross tons if all persons in charge of the deck watch

    (a) hold certificates of competency of the proper class and category of voyage for the ship that are required by Part 2 of the Marine Personnel Regulations;

    (b) have served either 150 days of service in the preceding 18 months or 365 days of service in the preceding 60 months, of which 60 days must have been served in the preceding 24 months, at sea as a person in charge of the deck watch on one or more ships on voyages in the region or engaged in the coastal trade; and

    (c) have served as persons in charge of the deck watch in the compulsory pilotage area for which the waiver is sought on one or more occasions during the preceding 24 months.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 09, 2018, 03:33:57
If it meets the Pilotage regs, the exemption applies to Master not to the ship. https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._1270/FullText.html


I may be mistaken but, not a waiver, my understanding is the master doesn't need to be the one holding the pilots license, you just need a licensed pilot on board.

I could well be out to lunch, but I'm fairly certain I sailed on a vessel a while back with a foreign master and a local chief officer, for that reason (then again maybe we had a waiver, but the chief officer held a masters ticket and a pilots license)

And apparently the cradles on the Ravens deck were for a pair of new 40' life boats being transported to the west coast.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on November 09, 2018, 13:12:49
I won't call myself an expert, though this subject has come up with First Nation Consultations due to waivers given to US tugs, two types of waivers, one for not having a pilot onboard on a regular trip and another for permission to seek sheltered piloted waters without a pilot, a US tug just had to seek that and the head of the Pilotage Authority was criticized for giving it to the tug, although it was the right thing to do at the time. I have to talk with the Pilots about something else, I ask them about this as I am interested as well.


40' lifeboats? Any pictures?
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 09, 2018, 14:16:30
Sorry, no pictures.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 09, 2018, 14:18:42
40' lifeboats? Any pictures?

No, saw pictures of them being loaded on facebook, but cant find the post now.

The new "bay" class lifeboats, i assume for the west coast.

Probably stopped in New Brunswick or Nova Scotia to pick them up enroute to Panama.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Swampbuggy on November 09, 2018, 14:21:23
I won't call myself an expert, though this subject has come up with First Nation Consultations due to waivers given to US tugs, two types of waivers, one for not having a pilot onboard on a regular trip and another for permission to seek sheltered piloted waters without a pilot, a US tug just had to seek that and the head of the Pilotage Authority was criticized for giving it to the tug, although it was the right thing to do at the time. I have to talk with the Pilots about something else, I ask them about this as I am interested as well.


40' lifeboats? Any pictures?

From J.D. Irving Twitter feed...
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Swampbuggy on November 09, 2018, 14:22:31
D’oh!! Stupid me...
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 09, 2018, 14:27:01
CCGS Penant Bay's first rescue was CCGS Harp... hopefully they have more luck with them on the west coast!
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on November 09, 2018, 20:41:12
looks like they just used her to save shipping costs :)
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Uzlu on November 13, 2018, 18:10:59
Quote
Used icebreakers to cost more than advertised: documents

OTTAWA — The federal government is planning to spend at least $827 million on three used icebreakers for the Canadian Coast Guard — 30 per cent more than advertised.

In August, the government said the three icebreakers would cost $610 million when it announced its plan to buy them from Quebec-based Davie Shipyard without a competition.

Officials say the additional $217 million, revealed in new budget documents, will cover tariffs, brokerage fees, engineering work and other costs to get the vessels up and running.

The icebreakers, billed as a stopgap but which officials have admitted will be used for up to 20 years, are only the latest vessels that will cost the government more than expected.

The Defence Department revealed last week that the federal government will pay $800 million to build a sixth Arctic patrol vessel at Irving Shipyards in Halifax, which is twice as much as each of the other five vessels cost.

Officials are also reviewing the costs of several other shipbuilding projects in Halifax and Vancouver, including new science vessels for the coast guard.
https://ipolitics.ca/2018/11/13/used-icebreakers-to-cost-more-than-advertised-documents/
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 13, 2018, 21:51:23
Earlier:

Quote
Purchase of three icebreakers turns Canada's August trade surplus into a deficit

The summertime purchase of three ships from Sweden has wiped out Canada's healthy trade surplus for August and replaced it with a deficit, Statistics Canada said Friday.

The agency made the revision to the August trade figures as it accounted for a $600-million acquisition of three icebreakers late in the month.

The $526-million trade surplus initially reported for August now shows a $551-million deficit. The change represents a swing in the trade balance of more than $1 billion.

Behind the August revision was a $981-million increase in Canada's imports.

"Most of this revision was due to the import of three high value ships, which were reported after the publication of August data," the agency said of the transaction, which on its own added $598 million to the monthly import number.

"Three icebreakers were imported from Sweden at the end of August."

Statistics Canada says smaller revisions to the monthly numbers are common because purchases sometimes come in after the publication of the data. The agency also made upward revisions in August in other categories, including about $100 million for crude oil imports and $100 million for imports of aircraft-related goods.

Last month, the Canadian Coast Guard said three interim icebreakers had been purchased for use over the next 15 to 20 years. The government agreed to buy three used icebreakers from Quebec-based Davie Shipbuilding for $610 million.

On average, the existing coast guard ships are more than 35 years old and have lost hundreds of operational days over the past few years due to mechanical breakdowns...
https://www.estevanmercury.ca/purchase-of-three-icebreakers-turns-canada-s-august-trade-surplus-into-a-deficit-1.23484863

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: garb811 on November 17, 2018, 17:41:52
Police confirm vandalism after Coast Guard ship tumbled into water in N.S. (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/ccgs-corporal-mclaren-sambro-1.4910302)

Quote
A Canadian Coast Guard ship is partially submerged in water at a shipyard in Sambro, N.S., after falling from its secured cradle in a case Halifax police are investigating as suspected vandalism.

The Coast Guard tweeted late Saturday morning that the CCGS Corporal McLaren had released from the cradle at the shipyard and then slid down the slip into the water.

The vessel is at the shipyard for a refit.
...
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: standingdown on November 17, 2018, 17:53:03
CCGS Corporal McLaren M.M.V.

I'll be interested to see the motivation behind this. I hope they catch and throw the book at whoever was involved.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 27, 2018, 14:45:30
Progress from Davie:

Quote
Canadian Coast Guard prepares for first Chantier Davie icebreaker

he first of three icebreakers converted by shipbuilder Chantier Davie is scheduled to enter the Canadian Coast Guard (CCG) service by the beginning of December.

The ex-Vidar Viking icebreaker was floated out of Davie's Champlain drydock on 13 November with a fresh coat of paint in CCG colours.

The Canadian government originally announced the CAD610 million (USD462 million) contract on 10 August after concluding Davie’s proposal to convert three civilian medium icebreakers would meet the CCG’s urgent capability gap.

“The conversion works on the first icebreaker have been minimal – mostly painting – since this vessel needs to begin operations soon for the upcoming icebreaking season to add immediate capability to the Canadian Cost Guard,” Frédérik Boisvert, vice-president of Public Affairs for Chantier Davie, told Jane’s .
https://www.janes.com/article/84829/canadian-coast-guard-prepares-for-first-chantier-davie-icebreaker

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Colin P on November 27, 2018, 16:11:49
Paint, a few secure radio's and mandated bilingual manuals and posters regarding the use of gender specific pronouns. Plus ring posts in the officer cabins so the graduates of the college can put their ring there at night. ;)
   
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: CBH99 on November 27, 2018, 16:21:51
I know most of the work being done is painting & ensuring all systems are working properly, but Davie really is doing an excellent job on their PR.

If I remember correctly, MV Asterix was slightly ahead of schedule & on budget.  And now, they'll have an operational ice breaker going to the CCG shortly after the contract was announced, and right when the CCG needs one.


While they don't have the same challenges as Irving in terms of designing & building brand new ships from scratch (AOPS) -- they've done an excellent job on the PR front as being efficient & able to fulfill contracts without the major BS delays & constant complaining from Irving. 
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Chief Engineer on November 27, 2018, 16:28:04
I know most of the work being done is painting & ensuring all systems are working properly, but Davie really is doing an excellent job on their PR.

If I remember correctly, MV Asterix was slightly ahead of schedule & on budget.  And now, they'll have an operational ice breaker going to the CCG shortly after the contract was announced, and right when the CCG needs one.


While they don't have the same challenges as Irving in terms of designing & building brand new ships from scratch (AOPS) -- they've done an excellent job on the PR front as being efficient & able to fulfill contracts without the major BS delays & constant complaining from Irving.

Yes because any screw up will jeopardize further work. The reason why Asterix was on-time was that a major section (accommodations) was built offshore in Finland.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: dapaterson on November 27, 2018, 16:52:14
So.. you're saying that if we want it on time and on budget, we should buy offshore?
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Chief Engineer on November 27, 2018, 17:12:06
So.. you're saying that if we want it on time and on budget, we should buy offshore?

Sure....., politically it will never happen
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on November 27, 2018, 23:10:40
So.. you're saying that if we want it on time and on budget, we should buy offshore?

No. What the Chief is saying is that when it comes to anything Davie Shipbuilding, he has a burr up his ... proverbial. That's OK! I've got the same burr in reverse ... against most Irving products and in favour of Davie. To each his own!

However, the accommodation block was NOT a major section. It represented only 15% of the overall work. And if you consider then that it needs to be built in Finland, then moved to a barge and slowly towed to Canada over a near four weeks period, you wonder what time saving there was.

In fact the time saving had nothing to do with the actual type of work but with the fact that the Finnish company who assembles those accommodation modules for inside the block has developed a technique that is used in the cruise ship building industry. That Finnish company agreed (and has since acted accordingly) to open a plant on the Davie premises to build such accommodation modules in North America and transfer the technological knowledge to local workers.

As it turns out, building the facility in Levis, then selecting and training a full North American crew then doing the job would have exceeded the timeline.So, it was decided that the module would be built at there Finnish company facility, with 50% Quebec labourers on the job there to learn the technique and bring it back home. It was not major nor was it because otherwise it would be "impossible" to do it on time and within budget.

Right now, the accommodation subsidiary company is operating in Quebec, at a low rate granted, but still, and if the government had picked up building Obelix, her accommodation block would have been built, just as fast, in Levis, and without the extra delay of towing it to Canada.   
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: Chief Engineer on November 28, 2018, 07:02:05
No. What the Chief is saying is that when it comes to anything Davie Shipbuilding, he has a burr up his ... proverbial. That's OK! I've got the same burr in reverse ... against most Irving products and in favour of Davie. To each his own!

However, the accommodation block was NOT a major section. It represented only 15% of the overall work. And if you consider then that it needs to be built in Finland, then moved to a barge and slowly towed to Canada over a near four weeks period, you wonder what time saving there was.

In fact the time saving had nothing to do with the actual type of work but with the fact that the Finnish company who assembles those accommodation modules for inside the block has developed a technique that is used in the cruise ship building industry. That Finnish company agreed (and has since acted accordingly) to open a plant on the Davie premises to build such accommodation modules in North America and transfer the technological knowledge to local workers.

As it turns out, building the facility in Levis, then selecting and training a full North American crew then doing the job would have exceeded the timeline.So, it was decided that the module would be built at there Finnish company facility, with 50% Quebec labourers on the job there to learn the technique and bring it back home. It was not major nor was it because otherwise it would be "impossible" to do it on time and within budget.

Right now, the accommodation subsidiary company is operating in Quebec, at a low rate granted, but still, and if the government had picked up building Obelix, her accommodation block would have been built, just as fast, in Levis, and without the extra delay of towing it to Canada.

Wow I figured it wouldn't take long for you to chime in and thanks for putting words in my mouth. For the record Asterix seems to be doing fine and brings an outstanding capability to the RCN. As for a burr up my a** in regards to Davie, I have a similar stance on Irving as they have similar problems however Irving is actually building ships and to my knowledge we never had to steal a warship from Irving due to a labour dispute, I know that's ancient history but figured I'd mention it anyways as the yard often mentions its shipbuilding history.

15% of the overall project is not considered "major"?, although for something that's supposedly not considered major the company certainly made much about it with the amount of pictures of accommodations, galley, gym etc. I don't dispute what you said about Quebec workers being used or the Finnish company opening a facility in Quebec for future builds as it makes sense.

From Spencer Fraser CEO of Federal Fleet Services.

"The simple fact about it was that had the work been done in Quebec it would have added up to a year to the delivery date.

Potentially, the work could have been in Canada, Fraser says, but it would have meant a delay of almost a year in getting the converted ship into service.

"We don't start getting paid until the ship is delivered and we have a hard delivery date for commencement of service in the fall of 2017," Fraser said in an interview with CBC News.

"The main driver of this project is giving the capacity of a refueller to the navy as quickly as possible."

He said it has cost his company more to source the work offshore, but there was no choice given that the Davie yard had other projects underway."


As for the accommodation's module not being major.

"Retired rear admiral Pat Finn, the head of military procurement, told the House of Commons defence committee earlier this month that a major piece of the structure "has been built in Scandinavia" and will be brought over and attached to the ship in the spring."

Sure what does he know ;)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/leased-navy-ship-1.3909874

End of the day the ship was delivered just before Christmas but the article mentions a hard delivery date of commencement of service of Fall 2017.
Title: Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
Post by: MarkOttawa on December 07, 2018, 16:40:04
Meanwhile USCG waiting/hoping for congressional funding:

Quote
Coast Guard Commandant Optimistic About Icebreaker Funding

The United States may soon get funding for a new heavy icebreaker ship, the head of the U.S. Coast Guard said on Thursday [Dec. 6], as global warming spurs the race to stake out the Arctic, which is rich in oil, gas, and minerals.

The United States has two operational icebreakers - a heavy one, the Polar Star, which is more than 42 years old and has outlived its life expectancy by a dozen years, and a medium one, the Healy cutter.

By comparison, Russia has about 40 to 50 icebreakers, purpose-built vessels that can rescue other ships, supply bases, and reach oil spills in harsh polar conditions.

"I'm guardedly optimistic funding for that first polar security cutter is going to be there," Commandant Karl Schultz said at a National Press Club event.

Icebreakers support scientific missions and operate in the Arctic and Antarctic, which hold vast natural gas, oil, mineral, fish, and fresh water resources, Schultz said.

While Washington participates in several forums on Arctic security and cooperation, such as the Arctic Council, it also needs to ensure it has the necessary equipment, he said. China early this year declared itself a "Near Arctic State," outlined how it believed the region should be developed, and is expanding its icebreaker fleet.

"Diplomacy and cooperation are really hollow or shallow without presence," Schultz said, adding that the country needs a minimum of six icebreakers, which can cost about $1 billion each and take up to 10 years to build [emphasis added]. "If we're not present, if we don't own the environment today, guess who owns it tomorrow - our competitors."

While President Donald Trump's administration has budgeted $750 million for an icebreaker, it is not certain whether the funding will survive in Congress, which is also looking for ways to fund the border wall with Mexico, among other items [emphasis added].

The Coast Guard is part of Homeland Security, one of several departments that have not been funded for the 2019 budget. Congress is expected to consider a $450 billion bill, before stopgap funding expires on Dec. 21, to fund the agencies through the fiscal year that ends next Sept. 30.
https://www.marinelink.com/news/coast-guard-commandant-optimistic-460484

Mark
Ottawa