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The Newsroom => International Defence and Security => Topic started by: jollyjacktar on October 02, 2017, 08:17:28

Title: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: jollyjacktar on October 02, 2017, 08:17:28
Horrific shooting in Las Vegas.  The world has gone mad.

Quote
A Nevada sheriff says the death toll has climbed to 50 in the attack on a Las Vegas concert Sunday, making it the deadliest shooting in modern U.S. history.

Clark County Sheriff Joseph Lombardo says more than 200 people were wounded at the Route 91 Harvest Music Festival on the Strip.

Authorities have identified the suspected gunman as Las Vegas resident Stephen Paddock.

Lombardo says officers confronted Paddock on the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay Hotel and Casino across the street from the concert. Paddock is dead.

Authorities say they have located 62-year-old Marilou Danley, who was wanted as a person of interest in this incident.

The dead gunman is also believed to have checked in as a hotel guest.

At this time there is in excess of 50 deceased and over 200 injured individuals.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/las-vegas-shooting-1.4316121

Titled updated with number of killed and wounded. - mm
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: EpicBeardedMan on October 02, 2017, 09:32:53
This is the initial radio traffic for the incident, pretty harrowing.

https://soundcloud.com/alertpage-1/initial-radio-traffic-las-vegasnv
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: milnews.ca on October 02, 2017, 10:10:44
This from the Las Vegas police (https://www.lvmpd.com/en-us/Press%20Releases/PO%20235%2010-02-17.pdf) - full statement also attached ...
Quote
The Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department identified the lone suspect involved in the late-night mass shooting on the Las Vegas Strip as 64-year-old, Stephen Craig Paddock, a white male from Mesquite, Nevada. 

Paddock opened fire on a crowd of more than 22,000 concert-goers from his hotel room on the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay Hotel on Sunday evening at approximately 10:08 p.m. The victims were across the street attending the Route 91 Harvest Festival concert when bullets rang out. LVMPD SWAT responded to the call, breached the hotel room and found the suspect dead.

The Clark County Fire Department estimated that approximately 406 people were transported to area hospitals and 50 are dead following Sunday evening’s shooting.  Among the dead is an LVMPD officer who was off-duty at the time. His name is being withheld pending notification of next of kin. There were also two on-duty officers injured, one of whom was upgraded recently from critical to stable condition. The other sustained non-life threatening wounds ...
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: tomahawk6 on October 02, 2017, 10:34:55
What a crazy world this is.His girl friend is an employee at the hotel and may have assisted him in stashing his weapons in the hotel room. Time will tell. The area trauma centers must have been severely taxed as well.Prayers out for the injured and deceased.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Halifax Tar on October 02, 2017, 11:04:18
So sad.  What drives people to such evil acts ?
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Rifleman62 on October 02, 2017, 12:34:34
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/las-vegas-shooting-live-casino-music-festival-shooters-gunmen-white-male-stephen-paddock-mandalay-a7977916.html

ISIS claims responsibility. (But they would wouldn't they?)
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: milnews.ca on October 02, 2017, 12:44:51
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/las-vegas-shooting-live-casino-music-festival-shooters-gunmen-white-male-stephen-paddock-mandalay-a7977916.html

ISIS claims responsibility. (But they would wouldn't they?)
Interesting, indeed - especially in light of no such claim on the Edmonton attack as of this post.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe following up on previous threats?

Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 02, 2017, 12:54:29
What a terrible and sinister thing.  I heard around work the shooter may have used an M240 machinegun, which might account for the death and injured toll.

I'm not sure if it's better to hope if the shooter was captured so he can spend the rest of his life in prison or that he simply shot and killed and his story never told.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Colin P on October 02, 2017, 13:00:35
He was shooting into a crowd of 22,000 apparently, so not hard to miss and at an angle to generate grievous wounds. As for what and why, I wait, the first 48 hrs is always full of misinformation.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: jollyjacktar on October 02, 2017, 13:50:11
Canadian among the dead (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-man-23-among-the-58-killed-in-las-vegas-mass-shooting-1.4316485)

Death toll rises to 58 (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/las-vegas-shooting-1.4316121)
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: milnews.ca on October 02, 2017, 13:57:20
... the first 48 hrs is always full of misinformation.
Yup ...
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: milnews.ca on October 02, 2017, 14:38:28
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/las-vegas-shooting-live-casino-music-festival-shooters-gunmen-white-male-stephen-paddock-mandalay-a7977916.html

ISIS claims responsibility. (But they would wouldn't they?)
And counterpoint ...
"Las Vegas shooting: FBI says massacre has no connection to terrorism after Isis claims responsibility" (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/las-vegas-shooting-isis-terror-claims-fbi-no-connection-links-latest-news-a7979276.html)
... with a reminder from @DarthPutinKGB attached
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Rifleman62 on October 02, 2017, 18:21:38
Cas equate to taking a Cdn Inf Bn out of the ORBAT.

Any info on the wpns used?
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: George Wallace on October 02, 2017, 18:43:32
Cas equate to taking a Cdn Inf Bn out of the ORBAT.

Any info on the wpns used?

Watching the videos, there are too many rounds being fired to be a 30 rd mag......Sounds more like a belt fed MG.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/las-vegas-shooting-1.4316121

http://heavy.com/news/2017/10/stephen-paddock-las-vegas-route-91-mandalay-bay-shooting-shooter-gunman-suspect-photos-motive/
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: jollyjacktar on October 02, 2017, 18:56:36
Why, why, why would this ******* do this?  Very upsetting to watch the videos.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: PuckChaser on October 02, 2017, 19:10:55
Watching the videos, there are too many rounds being fired to be a 30 rd mag......Sounds more like a belt fed MG.

Did you count all the rounds? Are you counting all the echos and snaps that aren't original gunshots? Very easy for this have been an illegally modified AR-15 variant that's firing in automatic. In the CBC video there's also a distinctive pitch change from something that sounds like a 5.56mm rifle to something more like a 7.62mm rifle. Lets not contribute to the panic and misinformation.

And for something unrelated to gun speculation, the tolerate Democrats of America are out in full force with this gem:

https://twitter.com/TheBrandonMorse/status/914885815901319168/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/TheBrandonMorse/status/914885815901319168/photo/1)
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 02, 2017, 19:54:39
Did you count all the rounds? Are you counting all the echos and snaps that aren't original gunshots? Very easy for this have been an illegally modified AR-15 variant that's firing in automatic. In the CBC video there's also a distinctive pitch change from something that sounds like a 5.56mm rifle to something more like a 7.62mm rifle. Lets not contribute to the panic and misinformation.

Just caught part of a news update on Sirius Radio and if I heard it correctly, the police spokesman mentioned that both 5.56 and 7.62 mm weapons being used. Also, something about an automatic weapon being used and it was being investigated whether a fill auto weapon was used or one that had being modified for full auto. Unfortunately, the spokesman answers came in loud and clear, but the questions were garbled.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: milnews.ca on October 02, 2017, 21:18:36
... Lets not contribute to the panic and misinformation ...
:nod:
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: George Wallace on October 02, 2017, 21:24:14
Lets not contribute to the panic and misinformation.
:nod:

Really?  A question was asked and a possible answer was given.  Have we been invaded by the Antifa?
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Brihard on October 02, 2017, 21:52:28
Did you count all the rounds? Are you counting all the echos and snaps that aren't original gunshots? Very easy for this have been an illegally modified AR-15 variant that's firing in automatic. In the CBC video there's also a distinctive pitch change from something that sounds like a 5.56mm rifle to something more like a 7.62mm rifle. Lets not contribute to the panic and misinformation.

And for something unrelated to gun speculation, the tolerate Democrats of America are out in full force with this gem:

https://twitter.com/TheBrandonMorse/status/914885815901319168/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/TheBrandonMorse/status/914885815901319168/photo/1)

Police sources have apparently confirmed both 5.56 and .308. The dude had an assload of rifles in there, at least some of them clearly capable of fully automatic fire. I hardly think speculating on these details as they emerge contributes to 'panic', and it's only 'misinformation' is speculation is presented as definite fact, which it was not.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 02, 2017, 22:04:35
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/las-vegas-shooting-cbs-hayley-geftman-gold-2017-10
Glad CBS fired her. What a piece of garbage.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: PuckChaser on October 02, 2017, 22:45:36
Police sources have apparently confirmed both 5.56 and .308. The dude had an assload of rifles in there, at least some of them clearly capable of fully automatic fire. I hardly think speculating on these details as they emerge contributes to 'panic', and it's only 'misinformation' is speculation is presented as definite fact, which it was not.

There's been no credible media sources stating a "belt fed machine gun" was found. That term is only being used by those pushing an immediate counter-gun agenda. There are reports that 2 devices, likely "bump stocks" were found to be able to convert semi-automatic AR-15s and AK-47s to automatic fire. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/02/vegas-shooters-weapons-cache-included-devices-enabling-automatic-gunfire-report-says.html (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/02/vegas-shooters-weapons-cache-included-devices-enabling-automatic-gunfire-report-says.html) Bump stock demonstration video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gWrthH2OK4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gWrthH2OK4)

Stating that someone had access to, and used a belt fed machine gun serves nothing but to further scare an already scared public, and push an agenda. Its hyperbole at its finest. In my 15 years in the CAF firing all sorts of NATO and Soviet-bloc weapons, nothing in the audio suggests to me "belt-fed machine gun". There's magazine/weapons swap time inbetween bursts, and distinct changes in audio from caliber changes.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Haggis on October 02, 2017, 23:04:48
There's been no credible media sources stating a "belt fed machine gun" was found.

Based on my interpretation of the audio, my money would be on a drum fed weapon.  "Belt-fed"/"drum-fed" means the same to the media as "LAV" means "tank"
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Brihard on October 02, 2017, 23:45:54
Police have now found more guns in a property associated with the shooter, and have found ammonium nitrate in his car... The rabbit hole goes deeper...
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: mariomike on October 02, 2017, 23:49:49
I spent most of my career working an MCI bus, but we never dreamed of anything like this.

The worst mass-shooting in the history of the city was 2 killed and 22 injured. That was after I retired, and the record still stands.

We used to stage and wait for the Emergency Task Force. But, the Rescue Task Force model is the way they operate now.
They used it last night in Las Vegas.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: FJAG on October 03, 2017, 01:26:04
At the moment, the Daily Mail has one of the better coverages of this incident.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4942856/Las-Vegas-gunman-SIXTEEN-guns-TEN-suitcases.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4942856/Las-Vegas-gunman-SIXTEEN-guns-TEN-suitcases.html)

 :cheers:
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: EpicBeardedMan on October 03, 2017, 01:29:12
There's been no credible media sources stating a "belt fed machine gun" was found. That term is only being used by those pushing an immediate counter-gun agenda. There are reports that 2 devices, likely "bump stocks" were found to be able to convert semi-automatic AR-15s and AK-47s to automatic fire. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/02/vegas-shooters-weapons-cache-included-devices-enabling-automatic-gunfire-report-says.html (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/02/vegas-shooters-weapons-cache-included-devices-enabling-automatic-gunfire-report-says.html) Bump stock demonstration video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gWrthH2OK4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gWrthH2OK4)

Stating that someone had access to, and used a belt fed machine gun serves nothing but to further scare an already scared public, and push an agenda. Its hyperbole at its finest. In my 15 years in the CAF firing all sorts of NATO and Soviet-bloc weapons, nothing in the audio suggests to me "belt-fed machine gun". There's magazine/weapons swap time inbetween bursts, and distinct changes in audio from caliber changes.

Definitely wasn't a belt fed machine gun, you can see exactly when he reloads or grabs a new weapon every time. There's a consistent lull every time the shooting stops then starts back up again.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: tomahawk6 on October 03, 2017, 04:38:19
It appears that the shooter used a bump stock to increase the rate of fire.

http://www.slidefire.com
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: milnews.ca on October 03, 2017, 05:44:57
More on ISIS's claim of responsibility (https://www.memri.org/jttm/isis-claims-attack-las-vegas-music-festival-says-%E2%80%8Eattacker-converted-islam-few-months-ago) ...
Quote
ISIS Claims Attack At Las Vegas Music Festival, Says ‎Attacker Converted To Islam A Few Months Ago (https://goo.gl/jiKPfv)
October 02, 2017

On October 2, 2017, the Islamic State (ISIS) news agency A'maq claimed responsibility for the previous evening's deadly shooting attack at a country music festival in Las Vegas, in which over 50 people were killed and several hundred wounded.

Police identified the attacker as 64-year-old Stephen Craig Paddock. In its statement, ISIS did not refer to the Paddock by name, noting only that the attacker "is a soldier of the Islamic State, and [that he] carried out the operation in response to [ISIS] calls to target coalition countries."

ISIS further noted that the attacker converted to Islam a few months ago.

UPDATE: Following its initial claim of responsibility, ISIS posted a second statement about the Las Vegas attack that said that "around 600 cross worshippers" had been killed and wounded in a "blessed attack" in the city.

The statement referred to Paddock as "one of the caliphate soldiers" and identified him by the name Abu 'Abd Al-Bar Al-Amriki. It also said that the attack was a response to ISIS leader Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi's recent call to target "Crusader coalition countries."

The attack itself appears to have been premeditated, as the ISIS statement said that Al-Amriki had conducted "detailed surveillance" of "Crusader gathering [places] in Las Vegas." It also said that Al-Amriki had been martyred after running out of ammunition ...
... and from MSM (remembering the usual "initial reports" caveats):
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: milnews.ca on October 03, 2017, 07:33:45
... aaaaaaaaaand a caveat on the ISIS claim:
Quote
ISIS Takes Credit For A Lot Of Mass Shootings. You Shouldn’t Always Believe Them (http://taskandpurpose.com/isis-las-vegas-mass-shootings-shouldnt-always-believe/)
Sarah Sicard, Task & Purpose blog, October 2, 2017

On the evening of Oct. 1, 64-year-old Stephen Paddock opened fire on the Route 91 Harvest country music festival from a room in the Mandalay Bay hotel in Las Vegas. The mass shooting, the worst in modern U.S. history, left at least 58 people dead and more than half a thousand injured. It was an act that President Donald Trump called “an act of pure evil.”

Hours later, ISIS claimed responsibility.

Through its propaganda news arm al-Amaq, the terror group claimed that Paddock — one of its newest “soldiers” — had converted to Islam in recent months and taken the name “Abu Abd Abdulbar al-Ameriki” before arming building up a suspected arsenal of at least 19 rifles and hundreds of rounds of ammunition. This is a scary, and believable, possibility: Between its inception in 2014 and Trump’s assumption of the presidency at the end of January, ISIS has conducted 143 attacks in 29 countries, killing 2,042.

There’s one problem, however: ISIS is probably full of crap.

In a press conference on Oct. 2, the Federal Bureau of Investigation immediately rebuked ISIS’s claims, stating that the attack appears to have no international terror connection whatsoever; later that day, Las Vegas Sheriff Joseph Lombardo made an important and telling distinction, describing the shooting as a lone wolf attack that has yet to garner the classification as “terrorism” at all. ISIS’s claim, when taken with the glaring lack of evidence suggesting a connection to Paddock, is a boast designed to scare paranoid citizens — a boast that actually highlights the group’s slow and steady decline.

“The statements are absent of any details that would suggest any type of coordination between ISIS and the perpetrator,” Laith Alkhouri, counterterrorism expert and founder of Flashpoint monitoring service, told & Task & Purpose. “This appears to be an ISIS attempt to capitalize on the frenzy and gain propaganda value.”  ...
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: jollyjacktar on October 03, 2017, 07:44:03
They would probably claim Hitler or even the iceberg that sank the Titanic if they could.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: milnews.ca on October 03, 2017, 08:40:05
THAT didn't take long ...
"Alex Jones: Deep State Behind Las Vegas Attack" (http://www.newsweek.com/alex-jones-deep-state-behind-las-vegas-attack-676016)
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: tomahawk6 on October 03, 2017, 09:03:35
British troops from 1st Queens Dragoon Guards on holiday in Vegas rushed to render aid. :salute:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4942216/British-troops-holiday-Las-Vegas-helped-wounded.html?ITO=1490

Off duty British troops on holiday in Las Vegas rushed to help the wounded after today's massacre, it has been revealed.
The soldiers - from the 1st Queen's Dragoon Guards - administered emergency first aid to the injured after a lone-wolf gunman unleashed thousands of rounds of ammunition onto a music festival killing at least 58 people and injuring hundreds.



Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: mariomike on October 03, 2017, 11:27:17
Firefighter Started CPR on a Las Vegas Shooting Victim, Then Got Shot in the Chest.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/firefighter-was-performing-cpr-on-las-vegas-victim-when-he-was-shot

Paramedic Recalls ‘Agonizing’ Decisions He Had to Make While Rescuing People in Las Vegas Shooting
http://people.com/crime/las-vegas-shooting-paramedic-recalls-agonizing-decisions/

Group of Paramedics with bullet resistant vests & ballistic helmets in Las Vegas.
https://media.metrolatam.com/2017/10/02/las-vegas-tiroteio.jpg

Local agencies review emergency protocol after Vegas massacre
http://nbc24.com/news/local/local-agencies-review-emergency-protocol-after-vegas-massacre



The Las Vegas massacre dominates Tuesday's front pages around the world.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Colin P on October 03, 2017, 11:49:41
The bump stock falls into a bit of a gray zone, I suspect BATF will suggest rewording of the regs to ban them and the Trump Administration will agree with support from the NRA. They could adopt the Canadian wording that does ban them.

I suspect that all large open air events in the US will have police snipers stationed above for some time.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: milnews.ca on October 03, 2017, 12:20:37
... I suspect BATF will suggest rewording of the regs to ban them and the Trump Administration will agree with support from the NRA ...
I'm about 50-50 on the orange bit, but I'd be mighty surprised if the bit in yellow happened - although the NRA did support some ownership limits on people with mental health issues (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/nra-backed-bill-aims-keep-guns-mentally-ill/) before POTUS45 pulled said regs earlier this year (http://www.newsweek.com/trump-set-overturn-guns-mental-health-regulation-557237).
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: mariomike on October 03, 2017, 12:40:23
I'm about 50-50 on the orange bit, but I'd be mighty surprised if the bit in yellow happened - although the NRA did support some ownership limits on people with mental health issues (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/nra-backed-bill-aims-keep-guns-mentally-ill/) before POTUS45 pulled said regs earlier this year (http://www.newsweek.com/trump-set-overturn-guns-mental-health-regulation-557237).

The NRA in today's news,
https://www.google.ca/search?q=nra+trump&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A10%2F2%2F2017%2Ccd_max%3A10%2F3%2F2017&tbm=
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 03, 2017, 13:31:25
It's sad how desperately people want this to fit their own narrative.  Lots of grief tourism as well.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Bird_Gunner45 on October 03, 2017, 13:40:08
It's sad how desperately people want this to fit their own narrative.  Lots of grief tourism as well.

I agree. Both pro-gun and anti-gun camps seemed to jump to the defence (as always with these events) to defend their views. Undoubtedly, the conversation needs to be on answering the pressing question- why are there so many mass shootings in the US? The answer is invariably complex and would undoubtedly incorporate elements of mental health, gun control, and a general culture shift.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: mariomike on October 03, 2017, 13:52:37
Lots of grief tourism as well.

I wonder if Las Vegas will experience something similar, on a lesser scale, to New York City in 2001?

After 9/11, approximately 9,000 grief counselors descended on NYC.
 

Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Colin P on October 03, 2017, 14:58:32
Most mass shooting are a fairly recent phenomenon as well, problem there is that it might indicate that current social norms in education and parenting might be incorrect, which affects many rice bowels. That being said, nothing in this case appears to be similar to other instances. This one is closer to terrorism. Perhaps forfeiture of all the estate, wiping of name from records and scattering of ashes into toxic waste might be standard. Basically do everything to destroy their legacy and their previous existence. If people know that might be the end result, any glory or fame is lost helping to reduce that as a motivator.

   
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: milnews.ca on October 03, 2017, 15:08:11
... The answer is invariably complex and would undoubtedly incorporate elements of mental health, gun control, and a general culture shift.
Well put.  This is why I agree with many of those who say, "the first week's not the best time to discuss solutions while the wound is still fresh."  A few say that as a cop-out, but figuring out real solutions needs a lot of issue wrestling based on the whole picture, not one huge, tragic incident.
... problem there is that it might indicate that current social norms in education and parenting might be incorrect, which affects many rice bowels ...
... forfeiture of all the estate, wiping of name from records and scattering of ashes into toxic waste might be standard. Basically do everything to destroy their legacy and their previous existence. If people know that might be the end result, any glory or fame is lost helping to reduce that as a motivator.
Methinks that if mental illness is involved, depending on the illness, even that won't make a difference ...
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Colin P on October 03, 2017, 15:14:39
Mental illness does not mean people are unaware or incapable, it's a broad definition. Clearly he was a capable individual, unless something had change shortly before. His lack of empathy and likely sense of self importance might be reasons for this event. Clearly he put some planning into it. Which is why I would suggest a new definition of "Singular Terrorism" for someone not acting with a religious, cultural or politically motivated reason.   
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: milnews.ca on October 03, 2017, 16:11:57
Mental illness does not mean people are unaware or incapable, it's a broad definition.
You're right - I should qualify re:  "depending on the mental illness involved".   I was just touching on the fact that if someone has their heart/mind pathologically set on destroying themselves/others, erasing their memory from the face of the earth still wouldn't stop them.
Clearly he put some planning into it. Which is why I would suggest a new definition of "Singular Terrorism" for someone not acting with a religious, cultural or politically motivated reason.
I like that idea.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 03, 2017, 17:57:28
I know some people who were just coming back from Disney in California as this happened.

They said that every entrance way was guarded, and had them passing through bag checks etc. They felt totally safe in a crowded facility with tens of thousands of people.

Las Vegas is a similar 'theme park' and may - like other big venues - may need to move to that level of security one day.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Brad Sallows on October 03, 2017, 18:14:58
>Which is why I would suggest a new definition of "Singular Terrorism" for someone not acting with a religious, cultural or politically motivated reason.

Sometimes it's easier to stick with what we already have: "run amok".
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: PuckChaser on October 03, 2017, 18:19:01
Why do we need a new term? Someone killing people without religious, political or racial agenda/views is a murderer. Are we just making up a term because we don't want to offend terrorists for being called terrorists? Or because unfortunately some people cannot delink the term terrorist for Islam?
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Eaglelord17 on October 03, 2017, 18:26:48
Mental illness does not mean people are unaware or incapable, it's a broad definition. Clearly he was a capable individual, unless something had change shortly before. His lack of empathy and likely sense of self importance might be reasons for this event. Clearly he put some planning into it. Which is why I would suggest a new definition of "Singular Terrorism" for someone not acting with a religious, cultural or politically motivated reason.

They have a term for it, and it is called being a Murdering Coward.

No need to reinvent the wheel for what things are called, and instead just call a spade a spade. Instead of calling him a shooter, the media should be calling him a murderer. Terrorist as far as I am concerned, is just more or less a buzzword which people often apply incorrectly because we have a irrational fear of the word, much as the term 'hate crime' is often passed around the same way. Those words are based around motives, which can be very hard to determine. Murder on the other hand is pretty straight cut, as you simply have to kill someone intentionally to be a murderer.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: mariomike on October 03, 2017, 18:29:06
Sometimes it's easier to stick with what we already have: "run amok".

"Shooting spree" still works for me. That's the term I remember they used for the "Texas Tower Sniper".

Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Bird_Gunner45 on October 03, 2017, 20:45:04
Why do we need a new term? Someone killing people without religious, political or racial agenda/views is a murderer. Are we just making up a term because we don't want to offend terrorists for being called terrorists? Or because unfortunately some people cannot delink the term terrorist for Islam?

You're right that the defiintion of terrorism is, "The use of violence or the threat of violence, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political goals". That said, we can't say if he's a murderer or a terrorist until we know the motive, which seems to be the question of the hour. Clearly, something made him commit a premeditated attack on this concert. It'll be interesting to see what that something was.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Bird_Gunner45 on October 03, 2017, 21:07:12
Well put.  This is why I agree with many of those who say, "the first week's not the best time to discuss solutions while the wound is still fresh."  A few say that as a cop-out, but figuring out real solutions needs a lot of issue wrestling based on the whole picture, not one huge, tragic incident.

I disagree with the needing to have a week to heal for one simple reason- Las Vegas is simply another horrific incident in the long line of horrific incidents which has plagued the US. Charleston, Sandy Hook, Orlando, San Bernardino, Binghamton immigrant shootings, Virginia Tech, Columbine and others are not "one offs" like was initially thought after the columbine shootings. They're a chronic blight on the US nation. US citizens should be incensed that this continues to happen and more incenced that their leaders of both political stripes refuse to confront the real issues as to "why" this continues to occur. No one should be "shocked" this happened based on the history of gun violence. No one should really even be surprised. That's not to lesson the horrific nature of the act by any means. It's just the reality that in 4-12 months there'll be another mass shooting followed by another one, etc, etc, etc, unless someone actually shows the morale courage and intestinal fortitude to confront the real problems.

The reality is that mass shootings are a reality in the US that largely dont exist elsewhere and certainly not to the extent that they do in the US. According to the FBI there have been an average of 16.4 mass shootings in the US each year from 2007 to present (mass shooting being defined as an event with more than 4 injuries related to the shooting). Politicians and leaders in the US need to say "enough is enough" and put real, non-partisan, thought, discussion, and blood into confronting the problem that faces them instead of doing the partisan grand standing that followed the other mass shootings listed above.  If the politicians need to be motivated to push for change they should watch "Newtown" on netflix about Sandy Hook.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Retired AF Guy on October 03, 2017, 21:55:05
Write-up on Stephen Paddock. It will be interesting to see as the authorities gather miore information on him.

Quote
Who is Stephen Paddock? Las Vegas gunman's father was 'psychopathic' bank robber on FBI most-wanted list

Before he opened fire late Sunday, the gunman Stephen Paddock lived a quiet life for years in a small town outside Las Vegas


Washington Post
 
October 2, 2017
8:08 PM EDT

Stephen Paddock – the man believed to have opened fire on a country music festival on the Las Vegas strip, killing at least 59 on Sunday – was the son of a “psychopathic” bank robber who was once on the FBI’s most wanted list.

Officials confirmed to the Washington Post on Monday that Paddock’s father was Benjamin Hoskins Paddock – a convicted armed bank robber and confidence man who escaped prison in 1969, when Stephen Paddock was 15 years old. His FBI wanted poster says he was “diagnosed as psychopathic” with “reportedly suicidal tendencies.” Despite his most-wanted status, the elder Paddock — who went by “Big Daddy,” “Chromedome” and “Old Baldy” — was on the lam for nearly a decade before he was arrested while running a bingo parlour in Oregon in 1978.

Benjamin Hoskins Paddock, the father of Las Vegas gunman Stephen Paddock, seen in an FBI mugshot. The elder Paddock was on the FBI most-wanted list after escaping prison in 1969.  According to relatives, Stephen Paddock appeared to have chosen a decidedly quieter life than his father, living in a retirement community outside Las Vegas — gambling, attending concerts and taking cruises. Public records show he was a licensed pilot, who owned two planes. And he had a hunting license from Alaska.

The 64-year-old disappeared for days to frequent casinos, neighbours said, where he often gambled in the tens of thousands of dollars. “My brother is not like you and me. He plays high-stakes video poker,” Paddock’s brother Eric said. “He sends me a text that says he won $250,000 at the casino.”

For several years, Paddock appeared to live in Mesquite, Texas. But property records show he chose to move to another town named Mesquite in Nevada, where he bought a home in 2013 and has been living there ever since.

“We have no idea how this happened,” Paddock’s brother Eric, who lives in Florida, told the Las Vegas Review-Journal. “It’s like an asteroid just fell on top of our family.”

“When you get a phonecall that says your brother just killed a bunch of people,” he told reporters gathered in his driveway, before breaking off, trying to hold back tears.

Eric told CNN that he last heard from his brother when Paddock checked in to see how their mother was doing in Florida after Hurricane Irma wiped out power in the area. After they spoke, Paddock sent his mother a new walker, “because she was having trouble walking,” Eric said.

“We’re f—d up. I mean, I’ve got a 90-year-old mother whose son just killed 50-plus people and now is dead,” he said. “He’s just a guy who played video poker and took cruises and ate burritos at Taco Bell. There’s no political affiliation that we know of. There’s no religious affiliation that we know of.”

Drapes billow out of broken windows at the Mandalay Bay resort and casino on Monday, on the Las Vegas Strip following a deadly shooting at a music festival. John Locher / Associated Press
Paddock’s family said there was nothing in his past that would suggest violence.

“We are in complete shock bewilderment and horror. We have absolutely no idea how in the world Steve did this. Absolutely no concept,” said one relative, who spoke anonymously to avoid hurting other relatives. “There was nothing secret or strange about him.”

For several years, the gunman lived with his girlfriend, Marilou Danley, in a retirement community in Reno, Nevada, neighbours said. They said they interacted with Danley but not with Paddock, whom they described as extremely standoffish. Danley told residents there that Paddock was a professional gambler, explaining their long absences from the neighbourhood.

Called Del Webb, the neighbourhood is a relatively new active-adult community of single-family homes with desert views and a clubhouse with a gym and pool.

Harold Allred, who lives up the street from the couple, said his wife often ran into Danley in exercise classes or social gatherings. Allred said he and his wife found Danley unremarkable, though perhaps a little odd, and didn’t know Paddock. “He was reclusive,” said Allred, 66. “We never met him.”

Paddock lived in a number of retirement communities. In addition to the Reno home, Paddock and Danley had another home in Mesquite, Nevada, said neighbours. In recent years, he had moved to Nevada from Melbourne, Florida. And he had previously lived in Texas and California, where he had married once and later divorced.

In Reno, Diane McKay lived next door to Paddock and Danley until July, when McKay moved to a different community, but she said she only ran into Danley occasionally when both women happened to be pulling weeds from their front yards. Danley wasn’t forthcoming about her life, and Paddock was aggressively unfriendly, McKay recalled. She only saw him in the mornings, when he went to the clubhouse to work out. Occasionally, he would open the garage door, revealing a large safe the size of a refrigerator. Other than that, the couple kept their blinds closed.

“He was weird. Kept to himself,” said McKay, 79, who described Paddock as small but in pretty good shape. “It was like living next to nothing. . . . You can at least be grumpy, something. He was just nothing, quiet. He never went out in the back and enjoyed the back yard, nature. They had a little back yard, 17 feet to the fence and hill. But the blinds were always closed.”

On Monday morning, police released a picture of Danley, saying they were searching for her as a person of interest. They later said they she was out of the country, and has been located and detained. Authorities called her a companion of Paddock.

Las Vegas police said authorities were in the process of searching Paddock’s home in Mesquite, Nevada, on Monday morning. Quinn Averett, a spokesman for Mesquite Police in Nevada said Paddock was unknown to local authorities in the city where he owns a home 80 miles northeast of Las Vegas. Mesquite police have no recorded interactions with Paddock. Las Vegas police said this about Paddock:

“We have no investigative information or background associated with this individual that is derogatory,” Sheriff Joseph Lombardo said. “The only thing we can tell is he received a citation several years ago, that citation was handled as a matter of normal practice in the court system.”

After the shooting, Paddock was found dead by officers on the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay Hotel and Casino, Lombardo said during a news briefing. Authorities said he killed himself.

Police believe Paddock was a “lone wolf” attacker. Lombardo did not give further details, however, on Paddock’s background or possible motivation.

“We have no idea what his belief system was,” Lombardo said. “Right now, we believe he was the sole aggressor.”

The FBI said Paddock was not connected to an international terror group on Monday after the Islamic State claimed responsibility for the attack. But the group, which has repeatedly made false or exaggerated claims, gave no proof to its assertion that Paddock was “a soldier” who had converted to Islam months ago.

Recordings of the attack suggested that Paddock used an automatic weapon. Paddock, who arrived at the hotel on Thursday, was found with more than 10 rifles, Lombardo said. Relatives said they knew Paddock owned guns, but believed they were legal. When

“No, not an avid gun guy at all,” Paddock’s brother Eric told reporters. “The fact that he had those kind of weapons is, just – where the hell did he get automatic weapons? He has no military background or anything like that.

“Like I said, he’s a guy who lived in a house in Mesquite; drove down and gambled in Las Vegas. He did stuff, ate burritos.”

—With files from National Post staff

 Article Link (http://nationalpost.com/news/world/who-is-stephen-paddock-nothing-secret-or-strange-about-retiree-behind-las-vegas-shooting)
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: CloudCover on October 04, 2017, 12:05:21
CBS fires vice president who said Vegas victims didn't deserve sympathy because country music fans 'often are Republican'
Interesting...

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act...
 http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/10/02/top-cbs-lawyer-no-sympathy-for-vegas-vics-probably-republicans.html

 CBS fires vice president who said Vegas victims didn't deserve sympathy because country music fans 'often are Republican'

CBS has parted ways with one of the company’s top lawyers after she said she was “not even sympathetic” to victims of the Las Vegas shooting because “country music fans often are Republican,” when discussing the mass shooting that unfolded in Las Vegas late Sunday night.

Monday night she issued a statement of apology.

Hayley Geftman-Gold, the network's now-former vice president and senior counsel, said, “Earlier today I posted an indefensible post in a Facebook discussion thread concerning the tragic Las Vegas shooting, a statement I sincerely regret. I am deeply sorry for diminishing the significance of every life affected by Stephen Paddock’s terrorism last night and for the pain my words have inflicted on the loved ones of the victims. My shameful comments do not reflect the beliefs of my former employer, colleagues, family, and friends. Nor do they reflect my actual beliefs — this senseless violence warrants the deepest empathy. I understand and accept all consequences that my words have incurred.”


A CBS spokeswoman told Fox News that Geftman-Gold, “who was with us for approximately one year, violated the standards of our company and is no longer an employee of CBS. Her views as expressed on social media are deeply unacceptable to all of us at CBS. Our hearts go out to the victims in Las Vegas and their families.”

Geftman-Gold took to Facebook after a gunman opened fire at the Route 91 Harvest Music Festival in Las Vegas, killing at least 59 people and sending more than 510 others to hospitals.

“If they wouldn’t do anything when children were murdered I have no hope that Repugs [sic] will ever do the right thing,” Geftman-Gold wrote in a now-deleted message that was first reported and captured by The Daily Caller.

Geftman-Gold continued: “I’m actually not even sympathetic bc [sic] country music fans often are Republican gun toters [sic].”

Geftman-Gold is presumably referring to Sandy Hook, which occurred in Newtown, Conn. back in 2012. A 20-year-old gunman, Adam Lanza, killed 20 children and six adults during the tragic event that sparked intense political debates regarding gun control.

Her attorney, Carrie A. Goldberg, responded: “In the last few hours my client, her family and friends have been bombarded by online death unimaginable in quantity and detail. We beg people to show love and support to survivors and loved ones — in Las Vegas and their own lives — instead of creating more violence.”

Geftman-Gold did not work directly with the network’s news division. According to her LinkedIn bio, Geftman-Gold worked at CBS since September 2016 and graduated from the prestigious Columbia University law school in 2000.

Brian Flood covers the media for Fox News.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: mariomike on October 04, 2017, 12:10:48
CBS fires vice president who said Vegas victims didn't deserve sympathy because country music fans 'often are Republican'

See Reply #20.
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,126688.msg1505176.html#msg1505176
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: George Wallace on October 04, 2017, 19:54:28
I know some people who were just coming back from Disney in California as this happened.

They said that every entrance way was guarded, and had them passing through bag checks etc. They felt totally safe in a crowded facility with tens of thousands of people.

Las Vegas is a similar 'theme park' and may - like other big venues - may need to move to that level of security one day.

I imagine similar precautions were taken at this venue.  Unfortunately, the shooter was outside the venue shooting in.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: mariomike on October 04, 2017, 20:04:52
Unfortunately, the shooter was outside the venue shooting in.

Survivors of the massacre described it "like shooting fish in a barrel".
https://www.google.ca/search?q=%22las+vegas%22+%22fish+in+a+barrel%22&dcr=0&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A10%2F1%2F2017%2Ccd_max%3A&tbm=

NYPD Will Train Hotel Workers To Spot Weapons, Suspicious Behavior In Wake Of Las Vegas Shooting
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2017/10/04/nypd-hotel-training/

Unless you open all the guest's bags it may not work.
http://www.gunsandammo.com/network-topics/the-gear-network/10-covert-tactical-gun-case-options/

The International Association of Firefighters says 15 off-duty Firefighters were shot in Las Vegas
http://www.firehouse.com/news/12372281/iaff-says-15-off-duty-firefighters-shot-in-las-vegas-mandalay-bay-shooting-firefighter-news

Number of people living in Nevada (2016): 2,940,058 ( Does not include visitors. )
Number of Level 1 Trauma Centers in Nevada: 1
https://khn.org/news/las-vegas-tragedy-prompts-examination-of-hospitals-capacity-to-treat-victims/

Washington DC's plan to handle a major emergency following Las Vegas shooting.
http://wjla.com/news/local/dcs-plan-to-handle-a-major-emergency-following-las-vegas-shooting

Fate Of Vegas Shooter's Sniper's 'Nest': "The Room Disappears"
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: tomahawk6 on October 07, 2017, 10:32:14
Accounts by British troopers of trying to help the wounded as bullets flew. I hope these soldiers get some award for their heroism under fire.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/the-strip/6-british-soldiers-jumped-in-to-help-strip-shooting-victims-on-sunday/

British Troopers Ross Woodward, Chris May and Stuart Finlay planned on a night of drinking and gambling in Las Vegas to blow off some steam following six weeks of rigorous training alongside their American counterparts at Fort Irwin, California.
The trio — all members of the 1st The Queen’s Dragoon Guards — paused for a moment when they heard the sound of gunfire echoing down the Strip on Sunday.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: mariomike on October 07, 2017, 22:57:20
From what I have read, 16 Rescue Task Forces were deployed. Each RTF consisted of four to six police officers, who created a perimeter around three paramedics. The paramedics treated and transported the wounded to ambulances under the blanket of safety those police officers provided, moving in unison with police from patient to patient.

Complicating matters was people with gunshot wounds showing up at various hotels. The calls were dispatched as a report of a shooter at each hotel. The calls initially generated more than 30 different possible shootings along the Las Vegas strip.

With people scattering into hotels, to the airport tarmac, and into neighbourhoods, the response area was stretched to about a mile.

Some trampling injuries resulted in the stampede.

In some cases, uninjured people piled on top of the wounded who had been loaded into pick-up trucks.
In one case, ten people ( some wounded ) were crammed into a compact car.

RTF training has been focused on active shooters at ground level, not firing from an elevated position.

In the city where I live, the optimal Rescue Task Force, with police protection, to active shooter incidents is one paramedic supervisor, two paramedics and four firefighters.

Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 08, 2017, 10:39:04
CNN demonstrates how a bump stock works. (Apparently a bunch of us here own a bump stock too?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsMk9ZGseUY

This has to be a hoax. CNN can't be this F-ed up. But if not bravo to them for the addition of an M203, silencer and ACOG. They probably couldn't figure out how to add a bayonet to it.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: George Wallace on October 08, 2017, 10:59:06
CNN demonstrates how a bump stock works. (Apparently a bunch of us here own a bump stock too?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsMk9ZGseUY

This has to be a hoax. CNN can't be this F-ed up. But if not bravo to them for the addition of an M203, silencer and ACOG. They probably couldn't figure out how to add a bayonet to it.

The follow on video after that linked video was, however, very informative:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6oaRAgdslE
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: MilEME09 on October 08, 2017, 11:16:41
Well after talking with a coworker who was there, combined with the news reports, despite how bad it was, it sounds like it could of been a lot worse, thousands more rounds were found in the hotel room, and frankly it sounds like the guy was a poor shot but given the size of the crowd hitting people was going to happen regardless.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: mariomike on October 08, 2017, 11:20:05
Well after talking with a coworker who was there, combined with the news reports, despite how bad it was, it sounds like it could of been a lot worse, thousands more rounds were found in the hotel room, and frankly it sounds like the guy was a poor shot but given the size of the crowd hitting people was going to happen regardless.

Survivors of the massacre described it like shooting fish in a barrel.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=las+vegas+%22fish+in+a+barrel%22&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=yzPaWdSCMs7e8AfC06eADA&gws_rd=ssl
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Thucydides on October 09, 2017, 02:43:03
Mark Styen weighs in with a possible motive:

https://www.steynonline.com/8162/theory-of-the-case

Quote
Theory of the Case
by Mark Steyn
Steyn on Fox
October 6, 2017
 
On Friday morning I started the day on the curvy couch with "Fox & Friends" to discuss the latest developments in the Las Vegas attack and the Democrats' push for "gun control". The perpetrator of the deadliest single-shooter massacre in US history is so unlike his predecessors that it seems to me that nothing in his history is coincidental: there is a reason for everything, even if we will never know it - all the way down to, for example, such peripheral details as the fact that he owned property in both Mesquite, Nevada and Mesquite, Texas.

It is also interesting to note that Stephen Paddock apparently cased the "Life is Beautiful" concert in Las Vegas, headlined by the rapper Chance. The victims at that event would have been very different from those at the country music festival, and the press coverage would have been, too: Democrats would have stampeded down the "white supremacy" track rather than "gun control". One senses that the killer, in his cold calculations, was aware, for whatever reason, of all these factors.

Click below to watch me with Steve, Abby and Brian:


Among the many emails I've received is this one, from a gentleman at a London think tank whose job is to focus on "the analysis of economic and political issues and outcomes". Make of this what you will, but he writes:

Today we turned our collective minds to the the shooting in Las Vegas as a test case since the event is extraordinary in that thus far no one appears to have identified a cause behind the carnage. This is our reasoning:

The fact pattern in this event is striking for not fitting any known profile. In particular:

The gentleman concerned had no known political or religious affiliations.

The level of premeditation is unusual and crystal clear from his mass buying of guns and the cautious systematic smuggling operation to ferry them to his room together with the illegal modifications and the position of the room he chose and occupied for several days beforehand.

This denotes a deeply serious commitment to his act. And one which leaves no doubt that act was conceived to generate the maximum possible publicity.

The question then is: 'publicity' for what exactly?

And the answer would appear to be 'nothing that can be identified'.

But consider the moral behind the following joke (I assure you it has a point beyond humour):

A known smuggler crosses the border every day at a particular crossing. Every day his suitcase is searched and nothing is found. After 20 years he crosses for a last time and confides to the policeman who has been searching him all that while that he is retiring.

The policeman asks him 'Ok - since you're clean today and will never cross the border again tell me this - you've been smuggling - right?'

The man says 'Right.'.The policeman says 'Smuggling what?'

The man says 'Suitcases.'

Hold that 'hiding in plain sight' concept as we return to the shooting. This man amassed (rough figures) 24 guns in the hotel and another 19 at his home - 42 guns in total. He spent some $100,000 on buying them. The guns at his home are one thing but he also spent days filling his hotel room with more weapons and ammunition than he could ever conceivably use along with an array of advanced modifications and accessories.

Everything brand new. And very expensive. And mostly entirely redundant. Representing in effect an enormous waste of money and time and risk.

Except that is in the realm of generating massive publicity. Guaranteed massive publicity.

Yet despite having gone to enormous lengths to achieve that goal we are asked to believe this same man never troubled - never took the most elementary steps - to speak to that publicity. Indeed left behind no trace of anything that might demonstrate indicate or even hint at his motive or motives.

That would appear to make very little sense.

We would argue the opposite - that it makes absolute sense.

Because this gentleman did not simply fail to leave behind a motive; He took substantial trouble to ensure that no motive could be found - or attributed to him. All of which can lead us to only one conclusion:

It has been said that 'the medium is the message'.

In this case that is the literal truth. There is only one plausible motive for what this man did. And here it is:

This man wished to telegraph to America in graphic form the hard irrefutable evidence that guns and gun ownership and the ease of gun purchase in America are an evil and must be controlled. On that hypothesis everything now makes sense. And it must be said his concept has a certain demented genius.

Because even if the public learns and believes that his motive was all about 'guns' the horror of the act itself - an act to protest such acts -
is in some ways even worse for being plain evidence that there is no limit to the insanity to which guns can be put.

Here then is our argument:

1. His long planned and carefully executed purchase of a virtual armoury of unprecedented scope and scale guaranteed that very armoury would inevitably become the central focus of the media.

2. His assiduous removal of evidence of any tangible motive also removed the possibility that the news cycle might move on from guns - simply the means of the killing - to considering the more interesting issues of motive and message - be it political or economic or environmental or anything else.

3. This man was a highly methodical and systematic thinker. Nothing in the scenario that unfolded was left to chance - even down to positioning cameras to surveil the corridor. It is therefore inconceivable that this was all done in this precise manner for no reason. That there is no message.

But of course there is indeed a message. It only happens to be implicit instead of explicit. That message is 'guns'. And that message is being trawled over every minute of every day on every network in America. Given the nature of the man and the facts this is not a chance outcome. On the contrary given the known facts it is indeed the only possible outcome. An outcome so obvious that anyone given the full story beforehand would have predicted as inevitable.

4. The people he chose to kill supports the hypothesis on 'guns'. Country and Western fans are virtually guaranteed to own or at least to defend the ownership of guns. By a certain logic this provides the gunman with two sound moral positions (because it is not beyond possibility he has a conscience):

First - While killing a very large number of innocent people is an horrendous crime it is nonetheless entirely justifiable - in moral terms - if it causes a restriction on guns. Because such a restriction would - it is widely held - save innumerable lives in the long run. There is no evidence for this but it is still a widely and passionately held belief.

Second - Since the people he is shooting are actively or passively defenders of guns and an obstacle to gun control they are by definition responsible in part for all the people who have been and continue to be killed by guns.

So our London analyst is arguing that this was an act of mass murder to protest the ease with which Americans can commit mass murder. I'm reminded of the entirely idiotic Liam Neeson movie from a year or two back, Non-Stop, in which he battles terrorists who've hijacked a plane to protest the ease with which terrorists can hijack a plane. At the key moment in the bad-guy monologue, my kids and I burst out laughing. But presumably Universal Pictures found it credible enough to greenlight the project - and, as I recall, most people in the movie theater seemed to be taking it seriously.

At one level, it's a ludicrous explanation - and yet it has the ruthless logic of a psychopath, of a man who, like a good screenwriter, subordinates all other considerations to the internal logic of an absurd proposition. It's also a rare explanation that explains everything: the guns in the hotel, the explosive material in the car, the guns in his house, and in his other house, and doubtless in his other other house. To reprise my reader's joke: He was smuggling suitcases.

And, as our analyst notes, in the void of any motive, the Democrats and media are now talking about the armory - should we restrict the number of guns? the types of guns? the modifications to guns?
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: tomahawk6 on October 09, 2017, 09:33:55
Paddock was as the song goes a Nowhere Man.

"Nowhere Man"

He's a real nowhere man
Sitting in his nowhere land
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody

Doesn't have a point of view
Knows not where he's going to
Isn't he a bit like you and me?

Nowhere Man, please listen
You don't know what you're missing
Nowhere Man, the world is at your command

He's as blind as he can be
Just sees what he wants to see
Nowhere Man can you see me at all?

Nowhere Man, don't worry
Take your time, don't hurry
Leave it all till somebody else lends you a hand

Doesn't have a point of view
Knows not where he's going to
Isn't he a bit like you and me?

Nowhere Man, please listen
You don't know what you're missing
Nowhere Man, the world is at your command

He's a real Nowhere Man
Sitting in his nowhere land
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody

The Beatles circa 1965
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: jollyjacktar on October 09, 2017, 12:12:00
NRA opposes full ban of bump stocks.  http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/nra-bump-stocks-1.4346367
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: FJAG on October 09, 2017, 21:54:25
NRA opposes full ban of bump stocks.  http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/nra-bump-stocks-1.4346367

Silly me. For a second there I thought you said that the "NRA proposes full ban of bump stocks.

What was I thinking?

 :evilrifle:
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Jed on October 09, 2017, 22:50:50
Silly me. For a second there I thought you said that the "NRA proposes full ban of bump stocks.

What was I thinking?

 :evilrifle:

It's probably a case of if you give an inch to the Gun Grabbers they will take a mile. Just like in Canada. People have an irrational fear of the Scary Black Gun.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Brihard on October 10, 2017, 00:00:05
It's probably a case of if you give an inch to the Gun Grabbers they will take a mile. Just like in Canada. People have an irrational fear of the Scary Black Gun.

I believe the case against the bump stock has made itself.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: mariomike on October 10, 2017, 00:05:33
Silly me. For a second there I thought you said that the "NRA proposes full ban of bump stocks.

What was I thinking?

 :evilrifle:

Apparently, they are "selling like hotcakes".
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&q=bump+stock+%22selling+like+hotcakes%22&oq=bump+stock+%22selling+like+hotcakes%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...7930.23050.0.23641.26.26.0.0.0.0.368.3904.0j21j2j1.24.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..2.17.2919...0j0i22i30k1j0i22i10i30k1j33i21k1j33i22i29i30k1j33i160k1.0.ff594VKpEcE
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Colin P on October 10, 2017, 11:58:27
Well they are still asking for a full review https://www.nraila.org/articles/20171005/nras-wayne-lapierre-and-chris-cox-issue-joint-statement
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: mariomike on October 11, 2017, 11:26:56
OCT. 10, 2017

Shift in Las Vegas Timeline Raises Questions About Police Response
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/10/us/shift-in-las-vegas-timeline-raises-questions-about-police-response.html

Because investigators are relying on recorded digital information, rather than witnesses, I find it somewhat surprising there is still so much discrepancy over the timeline.





Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Colin P on October 18, 2017, 11:14:02
When you consider the difference in locations of the shooter and his victims, plus the mayhem at the site, at night. I am impressed how quickly the figured it out.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: mariomike on October 18, 2017, 11:59:48
I am impressed how quickly the figured it out.

Did they? I am referring to the timeline only. Not any possible motive(s).

MGM Resorts, which owns Mandalay Bay, contested the police department’s announcement in a statement, saying that the company “cannot be certain about the most recent timeline” and that “what is currently being expressed may not be accurate.”

At the most recent news conference, the sheriff said repeatedly that information about the case would change as the investigation continued.



Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Colin P on October 18, 2017, 13:22:06
Timelines are wonky, but their response to a complex situation was likely better than many police forces would have been.
Title: Re: 50 dead over 200 wounded in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: mariomike on October 18, 2017, 13:30:50
It reminded me of the Texas sniper.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2Bc3AnAUGA

They never really figured out the "why" part. But, the two City of Austin patrol officers who finally blew him away were very brave. This was before SWAT.

The Las Vegas sniper was older than I am, so he likely remembered it too.

The response in LV is still under review.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=%22las+vegas%22+police+response&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=WYHnWfffDMzM8gfc3Z_oCA&gws_rd=ssl

Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Bird_Gunner45 on November 06, 2017, 11:05:36
Shockingly, another mass shooting with a semi-automatic rifle. At this point, the only way that the gun lobby will be convinced that some restrictions are necessary (despite mountains of evidence and counter-intuitive arguments) will be when it's one of their families caught up in this horses*&t

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/defenceless-people-26-shot-dead-at-texas-church-1.3664838
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Jed on November 06, 2017, 11:26:02
Shockingly, another mass shooting with a semi-automatic rifle. At this point, the only way that the gun lobby will be convinced that some restrictions are necessary (despite mountains of evidence and counter-intuitive arguments) will be when it's one of their families caught up in this horses*&t

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/defenceless-people-26-shot-dead-at-texas-church-1.3664838
Shockingly, you miss the whole point again. The problem is with the Aholes pulling the trigger. Not the implement. 
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: mariomike on November 06, 2017, 11:31:00
The problem is with the Aholes pulling the trigger.

The president explained it this way, "We have a lot of mental health problems in our country, as do other countries."

America is now long past the point where if someone wants to talk about 'the massacre', you need to have them stop and specify which one.



Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: PuckChaser on November 06, 2017, 13:17:00
Shockingly, another mass shooting with a semi-automatic rifle. At this point, the only way that the gun lobby will be convinced that some restrictions are necessary (despite mountains of evidence and counter-intuitive arguments) will be when it's one of their families caught up in this horses*&t

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/defenceless-people-26-shot-dead-at-texas-church-1.3664838
Your bias is showing again. The alleged gunman was legally not able to pass a background check to own firearms because of his bad conduct discharge and domestic violence conviction. It's almost like criminals don't follow laws or something...
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Loachman on November 06, 2017, 13:30:20
Shockingly, another mass shooting with a semi-automatic rifle.

Would you feel any better if he used a pump-action shotgun, rammed a rented truck through the crowd as they flooded out after the service, or barricaded the doors and lobbed Molotov cocktails through the windows?

Out of at least 300 million firearms in private hands in the US, at least 299 million were not used to commit that crime.

The problem lies not with the particular implement chosen to commit the crime, but with the person who chose to commit it, planned to commit it, and ultimately committed it.
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Jarnhamar on November 06, 2017, 13:32:03
Shockingly, another mass shooting with a semi-automatic rifle. At this point, the only way that the gun lobby will be convinced that some restrictions are necessary

What would you suggest for restrictions?

Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Bird_Gunner45 on November 06, 2017, 15:29:13
Would you feel any better if he used a pump-action shotgun, rammed a rented truck through the crowd as they flooded out after the service, or barricaded the doors and lobbed Molotov cocktails through the windows?

Out of at least 300 million firearms in private hands in the US, at least 299 million were not used to commit that crime.

The problem lies not with the particular implement chosen to commit the crime, but with the person who chose to commit it, planned to commit it, and ultimately committed it.

I have previously shown numerous statistics that show that the instrument does matter. The terrorist attack in New York killed 8 with a truck. If he had a semi-automatic rifle he could have killed 26, like this idiot did, or 58 like the last one. Your argument absolutely does not hold up under any scrutiny.
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Bird_Gunner45 on November 06, 2017, 15:34:02
Your bias is showing again. The alleged gunman was legally not able to pass a background check to own firearms because of his bad conduct discharge and domestic violence conviction. It's almost like criminals don't follow laws or something...

My bias against reading about mass shootings in the US constantly and thinking that some actual action should be taken to include (but not solely) elements of gun control? You got me.

The "Criminals don't follow laws" is a poor argument. In Australia, where there is high gun control, semi-automatic rifles are so expensive that criminals have had to resort to sharing them. In the US, where they are plentiful, they are also cheap. And there is little control past the initial purchase, including requirements for proper storage, etc.
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Loachman on November 06, 2017, 16:14:24
http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/sharpshooting-plumber-fired-shot-that-took-down-texas-church-gunman/

Sharpshooting plumber fired shot that took down Texas church gunman

By Yaron Steinbuch   November 6, 2017 | 8:28am | Updated

The man hailed as a hero for confronting the Texas mass shooter during his rampage is a sharpshooting plumber with no military background - who hit the gunman through a gap in his body armor, according to a report.

Stephen Willeford managed to shoot Devin Kelley before jumping in another man’s truck and chasing him down, the Daily Mail reported.

Kelley blew himself away after wiping out in his SUV, according to Wilson County Sheriff Joe Tackitt.

Texas Department of Public Safety chief Freeman Martin said Willeford “grabbed his rifle and engaged the suspect” after Kelley left the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, where he opened fire with an assault rifle and killed 26 people.

An area resident told the paper that Willeford, an avid biker who attends another church, learned about the shooting when his daughter called to say a man clad in body armor was shooting worshipers.

The local said that although Willeford has no military background, he didn’t hesitate when he came face to face with the suspect — and managed to squeeze off a round that struck the gunman, who had dropped his Ruger
AR-15 variant.

Willeford jumped into a truck driven by another local, Johnnie Langendorff, who witnessed the confrontation, and the pair gave chase.

Langendorff later told reporters about the dramatic pursuit.

“I pulled up to the intersection where the shooting happened and I saw two men exchanging gunfire, the other being a citizen of the community,” he said.

“The shooter of the church had taken off, fled in his vehicle, and the other gentleman came and he said, ‘We need to pursue him,’ that he just shot up the church. So that’s what I did. I just acted.”

He said he didn’t know who the heroic citizen was at the time.

“He was just a member of the community, and whenever he came to my vehicle in distress with his weapon, he explained very quickly what happened and he got in the truck and I knew it was just time [to go],” he said, KSAT reported.

“So we were doing about 95 mph, going around traffic and everything,” he added.

“Eventually he came to kind of a slowdown and after that, we got within just a few feet of him and he got off the road … He just lost control and that’s whenever I put the vehicle in park … The other gentleman jumped out and had his rifle drawn on him and he didn’t move after that,” he said.

Langendorff’s girlfriend, Summer Caddel, said Kelley died a few feet away from Langendorff.

The local man said Kelley was already dead when they found him.

“He was bleeding pretty bad,” the resident told the news outlet of Kelley while he was driving. “He didn’t live much longer than that.”

Martin confirmed that police had found Kelley dead.

“We are not sure if it was self-inflicted or if he was shot by a local resident,” the police official said.
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Colin P on November 08, 2017, 11:23:00
Yes the US has a gun culture (300 million + guns and annual ammunition consumption rate of 10-12 billion rds a year), but they also have significantly more social issues, larger population, a country next door that has flooded them with drugs and illegal immigrants. Now Canada (according to Wiki) has something like 36,000 illegal immigrants, to match the US, we need to bump that to 1,000,000 even though most are not committing crimes, they still add a social burden on services that causes the system to miss even more domestic problems.

Also where the lawful gun culture exists is generally not where most of the gun homicide exists. This data is quite interesting and shows that with political and fiscal will that the US could drive it's homicide rate down within a decade if the will was there https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-us-counties-2014-zero-murders-69-1-murder/



For suicides per 100,000, the US is at 12.6 and France is 12.3, Canada 10.4, Swiss 10.7, Austria 23.8 and Germany 18.9 (source wiki)
So it's pretty clear guns are not a major driver of suicides and if you consider a country like Japan with almost no guns, you see that social issues drive suicide, not method.

Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Thucydides on November 08, 2017, 11:26:24
The real problem is people are conflating tools with intent. Canada's worst mass murders took place using gasoline and a match (in the case of a Montreal nightclub arson) and dynamite (in the case of a bombing at a mine during a strike). The examples of people using trucks in places as far afield as France, London England, Edmonton and NYC to run over large numbers of people should be instructive. And of course, we have experience with people trying to murder us using home made explosives buried in the roads and ditches, using common household chemicals (the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing years ago shows how extreme that can become).

So people with murder on their minds will find a way, removing one set of tools simply directs them to look for substitutes.
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Colin P on November 08, 2017, 12:47:07
The latest shooting shows the weaknesses in the current reporting system, had information on the shooter been in the system, he would have been denied permission to purchase firearms and rightly so. The tough part in the US is the sheer size of the country and the multitude of various jurisdictions. A deep and well funded examination of all of perpetrators of mass shooting since 1990 will likely show some common themes, those "indicators" could be complied and given out as flags that can be entered into the systems and what key phrases need to be added to ensure that a prohibition is created.   
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: mariomike on November 08, 2017, 13:51:45
So it's pretty clear guns are not a major driver of suicides and if you consider a country like Japan with almost no guns, you see that social issues drive suicide, not method.

As far as method goes, for maximum lethality and minimum agony, I would say a shotgun slug, or buckshot, to the head would rank #1.

Failure with this method is likely to cause a very unpleasant injury.

Not the method of choice if simply wanting to make a gesture. eg: pills.

For those considerate of what others will find, this is a rather gruesome method to choose.



Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Jarnhamar on November 08, 2017, 14:28:11
Or we could push for better mental health awareness.
Maybe a suicide prevention program modeled after the CAF bystander training.  I'll never know if I could have saved a couple people I knew if I was more cognizant of that stuff but it seems more helpful going forward then banning a certain style of gun. 

Of course it would extend to the work place too, like when someone is harassed or picked on.   

Maybe the US is too big and busy for people to care about the small crap until it turns into a shoot out.
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: mariomike on November 08, 2017, 14:32:58
Or we could push for better mental health awareness.

I remember asking one young woman why.

She said because nobody smiled at her that day.  :)



Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Colin P on November 09, 2017, 14:42:44
As far as method goes, for maximum lethality and minimum agony, I would say a shotgun slug, or buckshot, to the head would rank #1.

Failure with this method is likely to cause a very unpleasant injury.

Not the method of choice if simply wanting to make a gesture. eg: pills.

For those considerate of what others will find, this is a rather gruesome method to choose.

If I ever get there, zip myself into a body bag, take sleeping pills and listen to music. Have all my documents attached to the outside of the bag. Minimal fuss and mess for the people having to deal with my body. People who jump off bridges are messy and sometimes live at least for awhile.....
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 10, 2017, 01:53:15
People who jump off bridges are messy and sometimes live at least for awhile.....

You're just wishing that on some Vancouver politicians, right? ;)
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Colin P on November 16, 2017, 12:02:07
Rather than fight more almost pointless battles on gun control, work together on mental health issues, social issues and education issues. The overall social improvements will affect all types of homicides, crime, improve the economy, reduce single parent families and be generally good for the country. But then those issues don't fit neatly into the election cycle, so they charge the windmill again.
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: mariomike on November 22, 2017, 10:46:03
1 ) The Las Vegas Strip may be shut down to vehicles so that during the next mass shooting Police and Paramedics can rescue the victims.
http://www.newsweek.com/las-vegas-strip-could-close-cars-after-stephen-paddock-shooting-719204

"The 4.2-mile strip is a popular cruising destination, with out-of-state visitors driving in from Arizona, California and other states to motor down Las Vegas Boulevard and witness the throngs of tourists, shining casinos and unique architecture.

It was so crowded, that it was difficult for emergency vehicles to access and egress the scene.

Ubers, taxi cabs, buses and pedestrians could still use the city's central artery."



2 ) Randolph Mantooth - Paramedic Johnny Gage of "EMERGENCY!" - speaks about the massacre.
https://www.facebook.com/EMSWorldFans/videos/1697666436941765/

( That show premiered during my graduating year of high school. It was about a job with a future, that was exciting and far from routine, with guaranteed security. )


Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Fishbone Jones on November 23, 2017, 14:10:11
As far as method goes, for maximum lethality and minimum agony, I would say a shotgun slug, or buckshot, to the head would rank #1.

Failure with this method is likely to cause a very unpleasant injury.

Not the method of choice if simply wanting to make a gesture. eg: pills.

For those considerate of what others will find, this is a rather gruesome method to choose.

If you're putting a shotgun under your chin, any type of load in a shotgun will take your head apart. I know. I've cleaned up three of them. All were birdshot.
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: jollyjacktar on November 23, 2017, 15:05:15
If you're putting a shotgun under your chin, any type of load in a shotgun will take your head apart. I know. I've cleaned up three of them. All were birdshot.

I know of one case where the front of the face, eyes and jaw were removed without killing the idiot until a prolonged period of time had passed. 
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: mariomike on November 23, 2017, 15:29:39
I would say a shotgun slug, or buckshot,

If you're putting a shotgun under your chin, any type of load in a shotgun will take your head apart. I know. I've cleaned up three of them. All were birdshot.

Don't take my word for it,

https://suicideproject.org/2012/11/my-suicide-attempt-2/
There is now a pellet between my right eye and my retina. I lost my upper lip most of my nose, most of my teeth, and the tip of my tongue. I have double-vision, have had four surgeries this year, and have at least a few more to go. Until recently, I didn’t know slugs were so much more powerful than shells that fire bird shot.

One knowledgeable reader of this website wrote in to suggest that those using a shotgun should consider using shotgun shells that shoot slugs, which is one piece of lead instead of a number of smaller balls of lead. Or else if using shot, to use buckshot, which can come in 0.24 - 0.36 caliber, instead of 0.05 which is used for things like clay pigeon/skeet shooting. The higher the caliber, the bigger the pellets (meaning they better maintain their speed and energy on impact), but the less of them.
http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/firearms

Shotgun suicide: Slug, buckshot or birdshot?
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&biw=1280&bih=603&ei=3h4XWuGvH8uGjwPKoI3gCA&q=suicide+slug+birdshot+buckshot&oq=suicide+slug+birdshot+buckshot&gs_l=psy-ab.12..35i39k1.11021.13236.0.15531.8.8.0.0.0.0.171.1153.0j8.8.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.4.635....0.EHwrxsRnaYs

I know of one case where the front of the face, eyes and jaw were removed without killing the idiot until a prolonged period of time had passed.

Happens sometimes.

Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Brihard on November 23, 2017, 19:45:56
Yup- shotgun/rifle suicide attempts do sometimes result in some really atrocious survivals. The face may literally come off, but the important parts of the brain survive. Under the chin is not necessarily reliable, particularly if one flinches back in the moment of pulling the trigger
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: MCG on November 23, 2017, 22:46:14
This thread seems to be building itself into an aide-memoire for those who want to shoot themselves.  Is that were we want to go?
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 24, 2017, 13:09:32
This thread seems to be building itself into an aide-memoire for those who want to shoot themselves.  Is that were we want to go?

Yes. If the 'aim' of the thread is self-immolation 'end your life' hacks...   :)
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Colin P on November 24, 2017, 13:41:19
Some links about drugs and mass killings

https://www.cchrint.org/school-shooters/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/07/25/antidepressants-linked-murders-murderous-thoughts/

http://kellybroganmd.com/mass-shootings-the-new-manifestation-of-an-ancient-phenomenon-and-their-link-to-psychiatric-drugs/

Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Fishbone Jones on November 29, 2017, 17:03:50
Don't take my word for it,

https://suicideproject.org/2012/11/my-suicide-attempt-2/
There is now a pellet between my right eye and my retina. I lost my upper lip most of my nose, most of my teeth, and the tip of my tongue. I have double-vision, have had four surgeries this year, and have at least a few more to go. Until recently, I didn’t know slugs were so much more powerful than shells that fire bird shot.

One knowledgeable reader of this website wrote in to suggest that those using a shotgun should consider using shotgun shells that shoot slugs, which is one piece of lead instead of a number of smaller balls of lead. Or else if using shot, to use buckshot, which can come in 0.24 - 0.36 caliber, instead of 0.05 which is used for things like clay pigeon/skeet shooting. The higher the caliber, the bigger the pellets (meaning they better maintain their speed and energy on impact), but the less of them.
http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/firearms

Shotgun suicide: Slug, buckshot or birdshot?
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&biw=1280&bih=603&ei=3h4XWuGvH8uGjwPKoI3gCA&q=suicide+slug+birdshot+buckshot&oq=suicide+slug+birdshot+buckshot&gs_l=psy-ab.12..35i39k1.11021.13236.0.15531.8.8.0.0.0.0.171.1153.0j8.8.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.4.635....0.EHwrxsRnaYs

Happens sometimes.

Quote
One knowledgeable reader of this website wrote in to suggest that those using a shotgun should consider using shotgun shells that shoot slugs, which is one piece of lead instead of a number of smaller balls of lead. Or else if using shot, to use buckshot, which can come in 0.24 - 0.36 caliber, instead of 0.05 which is used for things like clay pigeon/skeet shooting. The higher the caliber, the bigger the pellets (meaning they better maintain their speed and energy on impact), but the less of them.

Really not very knowledgeable at all. Shot guns are designated by gauge, except for a .410, which is a caliber. Speaking of gauges, our 'knowledgeable' reader forgot to mention which gauge of shotgun he was using for his results. Shot sizes range from #12 which is the 0.05 diameter of a single pellet (2300 to the ounce). This is roughly equivalent to table salt and is used in pistol shot shells. Next is #9 and continues to all the way to #2, at .148 in dia. (90/oz). Then you have BB shot - .18 in dia @50/oz. Then buckshot #4 buck - .24, 21/oz up to 000 buck -.36, 6.2/oz. Shot diameter INCREASES as the shot number DECREASES because shotguns are sorted by gauge, not caliber. Contrary to what the 'knowledgeable' reader says. Gauge is based on how many of the same sized ball, the diameter of the bore, that will equal one pound. 12 gauge = 12 balls, 28 gauge = 28 balls. The ludicrous example sighted by the 'knowledgeable' expert of using #12 shot is very telling. I have only ever seen #12 shot, called snake or pepper shot in pistol cartridges. There has been shotgun shells loaded with it, but you'd be hard pressed to find a modern load of it. This is the stuff the 'knowledgeable' sites as his example. I don't think he's very knowledgeable at all. At least not in the sense of shotgunning. That's the risk with providing links to subjects you know little about. Otherwise you would have caught all the bullshit your 'knowledgeable' reader was spewing. But you found it on the internet, so it must be true ;)

My experience with this is practical and hands on, as I assume some of your stuff has been. Trust me, someone can miss with slugs and buck also. Birdshot will do the job very effectively as my retrieval of eyeballs, bone, teeth and meat can attest. Does it really matter which load you use? I think not.
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: mariomike on November 29, 2017, 17:07:39
But you found it on the internet, so it must be true ;)

Don't take my word for it,

I didn't think you would take my word for it after working 9-1-1 full-time for over 36 years.  :)

So, I posted references to support what I already knew from experience.

My experience with this is practical and hands on, as I assume some of your stuff has been.

When did you work 9-1-1?
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: Fishbone Jones on November 29, 2017, 17:37:51
I didn't think you would take my word for it after working 9-1-1 full-time for over 36 years.  :)

So, I posted references to support what I already knew from experience.

When did you work 9-1-1?

I've never worked 911, nor ever professed to, ever, anywhere. My job is responding to and investigating industrial workplace deaths and injuries, issuing charges and taking the offenders to court. I'm usually on scene at the same time as the first responders, trying to secure the scene before they contaminate and/ or destroy it. The bucket boys are the worst.

However, to the point you are trying to pin me down on. When someone violently spreads their DNA around a room, the family is responsible for the cleanup. They can get a company to do it or they can ask family friends and relatives. I was asked by three families to assist them cleaning up. They wanted to keep things low key and as private as possible. I knew the three victims extremely well. Family members are normally so grief stricken, they just get in the way. So I prefer to do it without them there. It's what true friends are for and I don't take that responsibility lightly.

And why the indignation. "I didn't think you would take my word for it after working 9-1-1 full-time for over 36 years." I'm more than aware of your experience and even referenced it. I never attacked you or your integrity. Simply explained why the 'knowledgeable' reader wasn't and people have to be careful about the 'expert testimonial links" they provide.

So, now I'm offended that your offended.
Title: After the Las Vegas shooting massacre, survival can be excruciating
Post by: daftandbarmy on March 12, 2018, 10:38:55
After the Las Vegas shooting massacre, survival can be excruciating

On Rosemarie Melanson’s 153rd night in the hospital, she starts to vomit and can’t stop. She pulls her knees to her chest, closes her eyes and coughs bits of strawberry banana smoothie into a plastic bin her husband, Steve, holds for her.
Stephanie, their eldest daughter, stands beside the bed, her gaze fixed on the wall. She’d brought the smoothie for Rosemarie, thinking it would be a treat. But her mother has been unable to keep down food since she was shot in the upper body at a country music festival on the Las Vegas Strip more than five months ago.
When the heaving subsides, Stephanie offers a whisper: “I’m sorry mom.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/after-the-las-vegas-shooting-massacre-survival-can-be-excruciating/2018/03/10/23fd3998-23aa-11e8-badd-7c9f29a55815_story.html?utm_term=.853af37c1731&wpisrc=al_trending_now__alert-national&wpmk=1
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: mariomike on April 27, 2018, 16:01:15
QUOTE

Triage and Response Lessons From the Las Vegas Shooting

LAS VEGAS — Victims fleeing the Route 91 Harvest music festival shooting in October unintentionally thwarted emergency first responders’ efforts to conduct triage on site by self-transporting themselves to hospitals in larger-than-anticipated numbers.

Ambulances were lined up waiting to dispatch, but the immediate chaos at the scene and lack of a location on the shooter delayed the city’s response.

"Once we were able to determine the one and only shooter was shot, we were able to secure the scene in such a way as to provide more of that triage and transport in a more orderly fashion. But by then many people had already left on their own, going in their own direction seeking resources and treatment.”

Hospitals didn’t have the resources to handle self-transports.

Full story at link:
https://www.routefifty.com/public-safety/2018/04/triage-and-response-lessons-las-vegas-shooting/147795/

END QUOTE
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: CloudCover on April 27, 2018, 20:46:53

So, now I'm offended that your offended.

You've been watching this guy eh? https://youtu.be/F-mju_gW3c8
Title: Re: 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017
Post by: mariomike on October 03, 2019, 14:43:49
Update

Quote
Oct. 3, 2019
MGM and Las Vegas shooting victims reach a settlement of up to $800 million
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/03/us/las-vegas-shooting-mgm-settlement/index.html