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The Newsroom => Military Current Affairs & News => Topic started by: milnews.ca on August 01, 2016, 18:43:48

Title: More Canadian ISIS "terror travellers" ID'ed
Post by: milnews.ca on August 01, 2016, 18:43:48
Bringing it back to Canada ...
Remember where you read it first!
Title: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: jollyjacktar on February 08, 2018, 20:46:24
Somebody's heard about the Liberal welcome wagon for the nicest ISIS.   :nod:

That's because Britons don't want him.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/jihadi-jack-isis-consular-1.4526882
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Target Up on February 08, 2018, 21:10:45
Let the ******* rot.
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Cloud Cover on February 08, 2018, 21:15:51
Come on, we all know they will let him in eventually either by political decision or lawsuit coercion. He might have to wait until after the next election, but he will get in unless YPG does the world a favour ...
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: jollyjacktar on February 08, 2018, 21:18:57
A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian...here's your 10.5 cha ching
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Jarnhamar on February 08, 2018, 21:30:28
If he brings some kids with him he'll be entitled to $3600 a month.

Might as well top it off and get him a job at Veterans Affairs lol
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: jollyjacktar on February 08, 2018, 21:32:50
Or the PMO
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Jarnhamar on February 08, 2018, 21:43:03
Just remember that returning ISIS members 'are a powerful voice'.
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Cloud Cover on February 08, 2018, 21:48:49
If he brings some kids with him he'll be entitled to $3600 a month.

That's just plain disgusting. 
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Hamish Seggie on February 09, 2018, 02:02:11
Just remember that returning ISIS members 'are a powerful voice'.

F**k him. Let him rot
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Brihard on February 09, 2018, 02:45:38
Legally, if he is a Canadian citizen, the government has no right or authority to prevent him from re-entering the country should he eventually gain his freedom. But, they are also under no obligation to lift a finger to try to get him out of jail or to pay his way back here either. I hope that they do not.
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: pbi on February 09, 2018, 08:17:31
He made a decision. Let him live by it. And thus a message to anybody else who gets similar ideas.
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Jarnhamar on February 09, 2018, 08:45:18
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/world/jihadi-jack-letts-syria-1.4385163

His parents sound like real winners.  The article tries to paint this kid like a victim, typical.

Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Primus on February 09, 2018, 09:21:32
Trudeau will have poetry ready for him to feel less inclined to kill infidels. 

On a side note, what’s with almost every news outlet posting pics of him as a kid? The attempts to get the public to feel sorry for him by twisting the narrative is pretty ****ed up.
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: HappyWithYourHacky on February 09, 2018, 09:35:53
Just remember that returning ISIS members 'are a powerful voice'.

You mean "returning foreign terrorist travelers" are a powerful voice.
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: EOO on February 09, 2018, 10:31:05
I will like to see the issue through objective lenses. Is Jihadi Jack a Canadian? if the answer is yes, Canada can have him back with high priority surveillance put on him as part of the condition of having him back.

He must be willing to give something in exchange for his acceptance back into the country. I will rather that Canada has ears and eyes on these guys than playing politics.
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Jarnhamar on February 09, 2018, 11:36:27
I will like to see the issue through objective lenses. Is Jihadi Jack a Canadian? if the answer is yes, Canada can have him back with high priority surveillance put on him as part of the condition of having him back.



He's also a British citizen. Can we legally say piss off since he had another option?

Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Teager on February 09, 2018, 12:29:04
He's also a British citizen. Can we legally say piss off since he had another option?

I think that's what the British are saying since he's also Canadian.
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Brihard on February 09, 2018, 12:32:35
He's also a British citizen. Can we legally say piss off since he had another option?

Nope. Again, we need do nothing whatsoever to help him get here, but if he manages to show up at a port of entry, he’s allowed in, full stop. The right of a citizen to enter, remain in or leave Canada is written right into the charter and there’s no way around that at all.
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Journeyman on February 09, 2018, 12:44:24
....written right into the charter and there’s no way around that at all.
Since some people wring their hands at the whole 'terrorist hunting, extrajudicial killing' issue.... like it's a bad thing.  :whistle:


   ;)
  ^^^
this means "not serious(for those who require it be spelled out)
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Jarnhamar on February 09, 2018, 13:13:43
Nope. Again, we need do nothing whatsoever to help him get here, but if he manages to show up at a port of entry, he’s allowed in, full stop. The right of a citizen to enter, remain in or leave Canada is written right into the charter and there’s no way around that at all.

Ah, right. Thank you.  We did stop some Canadian citizens from leaving Canada to join ISIS though didn't we? Guessing that's some kind of clause for citizens having a right to leave the country or something?


In any case this guy seems like a POS and hopefully he remains right where he is. His parents are either super stupid or closet ISIS supporters. i suspect the latter. As EOO sagely points out the blatant attempts to humanize and victimize Jihadi Jack with child pictures is quite obvious. 
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Brihard on February 09, 2018, 15:11:53
Ah, right. Thank you.  We did stop some Canadian citizens from leaving Canada to join ISIS though didn't we? Guessing that's some kind of clause for citizens having a right to leave the country or something?


In any case this guy seems like a POS and hopefully he remains right where he is. His parents are either super stupid or closet ISIS supporters. i suspect the latter. As EOO sagely points out the blatant attempts to humanize and victimize Jihadi Jack with child pictures is quite obvious.

Passport revocation. Nothing stops them getting on a boat or going for a swim, but it makes it damned hard to leave the country when you can’y Enter the US or board an international flight.
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: FJAG on February 09, 2018, 15:46:18
Let me throw in a few comments while stating that I'm far from an expert on this topic.

The problem with this guy, as far as I can glean from the news and the web, is that he was never in Canada. He was born in the UK to a Canadian father and Brit mother and lived all of his life in the UK until he left Oxford to wander around Syria.

His passport has nothing to do with being a Canadian citizen (while I do not know for sure, I suspect he doesn't even have a Canadian one). His status is based on being the first generation descendant of a Canadian citizen.

Much, if not all, of the legislation under the Combating Terrorism Act (which has been incorporated in Part II.1 of the Criminal Code) creates offences relating to "everyone who leaves or attempts to leave Canada for the purpose of . . . etc etc" That wouldn't apply in these circumstances.

There are terrorist offences over which Canada claims extra-territorial jurisdiction but they require actual proof that the listed offence was committed. My guess is that because of the circumstances that such clear evidence of him having committed an offence over which Canada can claim such jurisdiction will be hard to come by and that if we do help him out to come here he will escape any consequences.

Considering the stance that the Liberals have taken with respect to reversing prior legislation facilitating stripping citizenship from persons with dual citizenship in certain circumstances they are now between a rock and a hard place.

Personally I believe they deserve to be there. The problem is that there is probably a vocal constituency of the Liberals who feel that bringing this ******* to Canada is the right thing to do. Hopefully they'll be in a decreasing minority.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Hamish Seggie on February 09, 2018, 15:55:42
Well put FJAG.

I think everyone knows my feelings on terrorists.
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Brihard on February 09, 2018, 19:43:45
Agreed. Extremely well put, and I agree fully. I unfortunately find myself sometimes at odds with my own beliefs and desires on this subject, versus my respect for the rule of law and my absolute belief that it must be diligently upheld.
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Thucydides on February 09, 2018, 19:53:37
There is a spirit as well as the letter of the law....

If we can't openly say "no" then simply remain silent and ignore his pleas.
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: FSTO on February 09, 2018, 21:02:49
According to Murray Brewster's twitter, Canadian Diplomats are attempting to contact our the UK's misguided yute.
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: jollyjacktar on February 09, 2018, 21:23:43
I hope the Kurds tell them to go pound sand.
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Cloud Cover on February 09, 2018, 22:00:21
Well thats just it, they are "holding" him, so hold a "trial" and do the right thing...
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Loachman on February 10, 2018, 01:36:34
https://www.thelocal.se/20180209/kurds-demand-sweden-take-back-its-is-fighters

“The second thing is that if they have committed crimes where they are, they should be put in front of a court there, where there is a possibility of investigating them.”
 
He denied that Sweden was trying to duck the foreign fighters issue.
 
“What I want is for people who have committed crimes to face justice in some way or another,” he said.
 
“It’s important that we can send the signal that if you go to another country to join a terrorist sect and carry out terrible violent acts, that you risk punishment.”
 
He warned that Sweden had yet to criminalise involvement in a terrorist organisation, making it hard to punish Isis fighters solely for their allegiance to the group.
 
“Those people have carried out a long list of crimes there, like murder, kidnapping, rape, arson. It’s always more effective to investigate that sort of thing right where it happened.”
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: tomahawk6 on March 05, 2018, 19:10:09
Captured foreign fighters face the death penalty.
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: jollyjacktar on March 05, 2018, 19:32:45
Sadly, not with us.
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Target Up on March 05, 2018, 19:44:22
Captured foreign fighters face the death penalty.

Here they get 10.5 mil and a free ipad.
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Jarnhamar on March 05, 2018, 19:49:13
Here they get 10.5 mil and a free ipad.

But at least it wasn't 15 million right? We sure dodged a bullet :)
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Cloud Cover on March 05, 2018, 20:43:29
Captured foreign fighters face the death penalty.
In Sweden? I hope  the IKEA folding kitchen guillotine does more than slice carrots!
Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Jarnhamar on March 05, 2018, 20:59:14
In Sweden? I hope  the IKEA folding kitchen guillotine does more than slice carrots!

Have you read about what's going on in Sweden?

Quote
Authorities in Sweden are prosecuting a 70-year-old woman for a hate crime.

Her alleged crime? She wrote on Facebook that she saw migrants defecating in the streets and setting fire to cars.

Title: Re: Jihadi Jack Letts begs Canada to take him in
Post by: Cloud Cover on March 05, 2018, 21:22:40
Coming soon to a street near you...
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 09, 2018, 10:25:16
Canadian member of Islamic State caught, but it’s unclear what charges he might face


*fixed link
https://globalnews.ca/news/4526514/canadian-isis-caught-in-turkey/

Title: Re: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Old Sweat on October 09, 2018, 12:28:49
Canadian member of Islamic State caught, but it’s unclear what charges he might face


https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/exclusive-canadian-member-of-islamic-state-caught-but-it’s-unclear-what-charges-he-might-face/ar-BBO6WO6

Based on our past performances, a formal apology and a $10.5 million award would be not too far out of line.
Title: Re: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 09, 2018, 14:40:01
Maybe sent to a healing lodge to cure him of bad practices.
Title: Re: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Target Up on October 10, 2018, 00:09:57
Canadian member of Islamic State caught, but it’s unclear what charges he might face


https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/exclusive-canadian-member-of-islamic-state-caught-but-it’s-unclear-what-charges-he-might-face/ar-BBO6WO6

No charges, room service and pay-per-view will be complimentary.
Title: Re: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 10, 2018, 06:39:56
Quote
A high-profile Canadian member of the so-called Islamic State has been caught while attempting to return to Canada, Global News has confirmed.

Muhammad Ali, 28, who left Toronto in 2014 to join ISIS, was captured by Kurdish forces as he tried to flee from Syria to Turkey.

Global News interviewed Ali at a makeshift prison where he is being held by the U.S.-backed Syrian Democratic Forces, or SDF, the military alliance that controls northeast Syria.

The former Ryerson University student, who went by Abu Turaab Al-Kanadi, was taken into custody four months ago in Ras al-Ayn, on the Turkish border.

At the time, he was with his Canadian wife, former Vancouver resident Rida Jabbar, and their two children, both born in Syria.

His family is being detained at a camp not far from the prison where Kurdish, American and British officials have been interrogating Ali.

His capture is significant because, aside from serving as a sniper, Ali used social media to encourage others to join ISIS and conduct terrorist attacks .





Well, according to PM Trudeau, ISIS fighters can be “an extraordinarily powerful voice” in Canada...







Title: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 17, 2018, 12:39:35
Apparently our government (allegedly) proactively reached out to British ISIS fighter of some norioty, Jihadi Jack.

Quote
During question period on Tuesday, Conservative Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer asked Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to explain why Canadian officials had reached out to a British 22-year-old with Canadian citizenship who is imprisoned by Kurdish forces in Syria.

“This government proactively reached out to try to bring this individual, who has fought with a terrorist organization, back to Canada. They took it upon themselves to reach out to bring this individual to Canada, why?” Scheer demanded.

Trudeau responded to Scheer’s questions broadly, stating that his government takes “with the utmost seriousness, the threats posed by travelling extremists.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/4557701/andrew-scheer-trudeau-jihadi-jack/amp/


The quote above doesn't do Trudeau's response justice. You really need to see a clip from said question period to see how skilled Trudeau is becoming at deflection.

Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: DetectiveMcNulty on October 17, 2018, 15:28:18
Apparently our government (allegedly) proactively reached out to British ISIS fighter of some norioty, Jihadi Jack.
 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/4557701/andrew-scheer-trudeau-jihadi-jack/amp/


The quote above doesn't do Trudeau's response justice. You really need to see a clip from said question period to see how skilled Trudeau is becoming at deflection.

I think we should gift the returning fighters to the Yazidis. Justice and diplomacy all at once.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: ontheedge on October 17, 2018, 16:39:10
As much as I’m not a fan of Trudeau, seems like he handled this one correctly. There is obviously an intelligent gathering benefit from having a former extremist spy for Canada within Canada. And that if Jack starts causing trouble we have the tools to watch him closely.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 17, 2018, 16:55:43
Quote from: ontheedge
a former extremist spy for Canada within Canada.

Am I missing something here?

Quote
And that if Jack starts causing trouble we have the tools to watch him closely.

Lol no thanks. Let's not bring more terrorists into Canada.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: NavyShooter on October 17, 2018, 18:17:21
We should be reaching out to him with an AMAX that's 1/2 inch in diameter...
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: DetectiveMcNulty on October 17, 2018, 18:37:03
We should be reaching out to him with an AMAX that's 1/2 inch in diameter...

If feeding them to crocodiles isn’t an option, I guess I’d settle for Canada doing them with a .50
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 17, 2018, 19:37:10
We should be reaching out to him with an AMAX that's 1/2 inch in diameter...

I can think of a few things we could use to communicate with him:

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.seaforces.org%2Fwpnsys%2FSURFACE%2FRGM-84-Harpoon_DAT%2FRGM-84-Harpoon-042.jpg&hash=cb3ec825d53ffca66180a6fd054ffaaa)
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 17, 2018, 20:39:25
I think Iraq has set the standard for 'severity and celerity', and gender neutrality, here:


'They deserve no mercy': Iraq deals briskly with accused 'women of Isis'
 
A Baghdad court has sentenced more than 40 foreign women to death after 10-minute hearings

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/22/they-deserve-no-mercy-iraq-deals-briskly-with-accused-women-of-isis
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: BurnDoctor on October 17, 2018, 22:11:37
I feel this is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

For one, these cases would seem to meet the Criminal Code of Canada definition of treason; namely someone holding Canadian citizenship taking up arms against Canada or her allies. Yet we've heard no talk of prosecuting these "foreign fighters" or "travelling extremists", as the Government alternately calls them.

Secondly, their atrocities are not compatible with coexisting in civilized society.

Finally, having these individuals in Canada cheapens the citizenship of law-abiding Canadians, cheapens the service of CF members by essentially having the government in the role of fifth columnists, aiding and abetting the enemy, and dishonours the memory of CF members killed fighting extremism overseas. Presumeably an implicit reason for the effort in Afghanistan (in addition to the NATO obligation, and denying Afghanistan as a safe haven to extremists) was to avoid fighting extremists here by doing it  there. Why do that if we just turn around and let the enemy back? Why have Op Impact if we just welcome the enemy back, one of whom (M. Ali) has said that he no longer considers himself Canadian? This sickens me, and I know I can't be the only one.

Yes, there are some legal considerations - I get that - but if Trudeau can drag his feet on TMX and get nothing done, he could ld drag his feet on this too, and they could stay abroad indefinitely.

Time to go have a rage workout.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Colin P on October 18, 2018, 11:33:33
They can return to Canada, once they have been cleared of wrong doing in the country they committed the crime in or have served their sentence out.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: DetectiveMcNulty on October 18, 2018, 12:15:16
They can return to Canada, once they have been cleared of wrong doing in the country they committed the crime in or have served their sentence out.

As long as we don’t repatriate their remains after their death sentences.

Ramp ceremonies are for soldiers, not murderers and rapists.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Cloud Cover on October 19, 2018, 18:36:46
If the plane is on the ground, then yes.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: ontheedge on October 22, 2018, 01:31:49
There was an incredible podcast called Caliphate. Ten part series or something. Went into great detail and interviews with former ISIS Canadian. Highly recommend this podcast for folks interested in the subject. Major takeaway:  proving crimes overseas is a difficult task according to canadian criminal justice standards.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 22, 2018, 01:53:59
I feel this is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

For one, these cases would seem to meet the Criminal Code of Canada definition of treason; namely someone holding Canadian citizenship taking up arms against Canada or her allies. Yet we've heard no talk of prosecuting these "foreign fighters" or "travelling extremists", as the Government alternately calls them.

Secondly, their atrocities are not compatible with coexisting in civilized society.

Finally, having these individuals in Canada cheapens the citizenship of law-abiding Canadians, cheapens the service of CF members by essentially having the government in the role of fifth columnists, aiding and abetting the enemy, and dishonours the memory of CF members killed fighting extremism overseas. Presumeably an implicit reason for the effort in Afghanistan (in addition to the NATO obligation, and denying Afghanistan as a safe haven to extremists) was to avoid fighting extremists here by doing it  there. Why do that if we just turn around and let the enemy back? Why have Op Impact if we just welcome the enemy back, one of whom (M. Ali) has said that he no longer considers himself Canadian? This sickens me, and I know I can't be the only one.

Yes, there are some legal considerations - I get that - but if Trudeau can drag his feet on TMX and get nothing done, he could ld drag his feet on this too, and they could stay abroad indefinitely.

Time to go have a rage workout.

The Trudeau government just set the benchmark for cases like this, by making Omar Khadr a multi-milionaire, didn't they?


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/trudeau-defends-apology-and-105-million-payment-to-omar-khadr/article35623594/
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on October 22, 2018, 07:41:13
proving crimes overseas is a difficult task according to canadian criminal justice standards.

Am I missing something?  Guy leaves Canada to join ISIS and we are worried about Canadian criminal justice standards.

Most of us on here are willing to put our lives on the line to defend the rights freedoms of Canadians and this mother ****** leaves to join an organization that throws people off buildings because of their sexual preference.   

He made his choice, he can live with it.    frig him.


Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 22, 2018, 08:01:08
As much as I’m not a fan of Trudeau, seems like he handled this one correctly. There is obviously an intelligent gathering benefit from having a former extremist spy for Canada within Canada. And that if Jack starts causing trouble we have the tools to watch him closely.

CAF SOF and Aircrew who served in that theatre might not agree with this opinion.  They worked hard over there to take individuals like this out;  they (ISIS) would not have given any quarter to Coalition/MESF forces who they got their hands on.  They proved this when they burned Jordanian pilot Lt. Muath al-Kaseasbeh alive in a cage and then smashed his charred corpse into the ground with a front-end loader.

Warning:  Extremely Graphic Video:  ISIS Burns Hostage Alive (https://video.foxnews.com/v/4030583977001/?#sp=show-clips):  if you're interested, the cage on fire stuff starts at about 16:16, if your stomach is strong enough to see the horror this Officer suffered at his end.

Adult decisions come with adult consequences.  I feel no sorrow for any of them; neither would you if you knew some of the things that happened over there.  Do you really want this piece of crap and his kind in your backyard, because if they decided to fry you and yours, the Canadian Legal System would be able to do very little to stop them, if they were already in your backyard.  Think about it.  These people do not fear 'a legal system' and 'court ordered restrictions' and other bullshit like that.

RIP Lt. 
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 22, 2018, 08:47:20
CAF SOF and Aircrew who served in that theatre might not agree with this opinion. 

Neither would the Canadian soldier who was murdered 4 years ago today on Parliament Hill.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: DetectiveMcNulty on October 22, 2018, 17:25:25
I'd say almost everyone that conducted ops/collected Int on IMPACT knows how sick and ruthless these monsters are. They conduct genocide, enslave young girls, torture/execute/mutilate prisoners...

We could have done a lot more to kill these assholes while they were over there. Hands were tied.

A lot of the evidence against these assholes will likely never see the light of day. So they will come back, and walk our streets freely - likely with the help of the Canadian taxpayer.

They are guilty of treason full stop. Any politician, lawyer, or bureaucrat that disagrees is just as guilty - IMO. BZ to the other countries hunting these guys down still, and BZ to the Iraqis (flawed as they are) for giving them the "trials" they deserve.

 :2c:




Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Kokanee on October 22, 2018, 17:33:44
The Trudeau government just set the benchmark for cases like this, by making Omar Khadr a multi-milionaire, didn't they? ...

There is an extreme difference in these cases. One was the case of a young boy brought to a warzone against his will by his father, a rifle thrust into his hands. The other are cases of ADULTS knowingly travelling to that part of the world to join ISIS and who carried out brutal and reprehensible WARCRIMES, for which they absolutely should be punished to the full extent of the law.

So to recap, child soldier vs ADULTS. There is a huge difference.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 22, 2018, 17:34:46
There is an extreme difference in these cases. One was the case of a young boy brought to a warzone against his will by his father, a rifle thrust into his hands. The other are cases of ADULTS knowingly travelling to that part of the world to join ISIS and who carried out brutal and reprehensible WARCRIMES, for which they absolutely should be punished to the full extent of the law.

So to recap, child soldier vs ADULTS. There is a huge difference.

To us, there is a difference. To them, not so much.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Journeyman on October 22, 2018, 19:54:04
One was the case of a young boy brought to a warzone against his will by his father, a rifle thrust into his hands.....
While the fatherhood skills clearly weren't up to the level expected of Victoria Park & Eglington's finest citizens in Toronto, the rationale for the payout was the Supreme Court's unanimous ruling (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/omar-khadr-settlement-analysis-aaron-wherry-1.4189472) that found Khadr's human rights were being violated at Guantanamo Bay." 

The father was irrelevant;  Khadr could have been with al-Qaeda, the Shriners, or the Boy Scouts -- the slap was directed solely at the American's extrajudicial processes.

And to stoke the fires... while I disagree with the amount, and that Canada paid it and not the US (which, I suspect, was tied to CSIS involvement), I have absolutely no heartache with the thought process behind it.

     Gitmo is wrong   (as was Abu Ghraib)


And for anyone wringing hands about child soldiers, let's see what comes out of Mali.    :not-again:
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Kokanee on October 22, 2018, 21:52:59
While the fatherhood skills clearly weren't up to the level expected of Victoria Park & Eglington's finest citizens in Toronto, the rationale for the payout was the Supreme Court's unanimous ruling (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/omar-khadr-settlement-analysis-aaron-wherry-1.4189472) that found Khadr's human rights were being violated at Guantanamo Bay." 

The father was irrelevant;  Khadr could have been with al-Qaeda, the Shriners, or the Boy Scouts -- the slap was directed solely at the American's extrajudicial processes.

And to stoke the fires... while I disagree with the amount, and that Canada paid it and not the US (which, I suspect, was tied to CSIS involvement), I have absolutely no heartache with the thought process behind it.

     Gitmo is wrong   (as was Abu Ghraib)


And for anyone wringing hands about child soldiers, let's see what comes out of Mali.    :not-again:

agreed, my post was more about how the OP equated Mr.khadr to a terrorist.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: PuckChaser on October 22, 2018, 23:31:06
agreed, my post was more about how the OP equated Mr.khadr to a terrorist.

He is a terrorist. He admitted it. To be honest, I wasn't fond of the criminal charges thing. Those pers captured on the battlefield could have just been treated as POWs and held until cessation of hostilities. Then we wouldn't have to worry about $10.5M payout, or ever seeing him walk free again.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 22, 2018, 23:47:45
There is an extreme difference in these cases. One was the case of a young boy brought to a warzone against his will by his father, a rifle thrust into his hands. The other are cases of ADULTS knowingly travelling to that part of the world to join ISIS and who carried out brutal and reprehensible WARCRIMES, for which they absolutely should be punished to the full extent of the law.

So to recap, child soldier vs ADULTS. There is a huge difference.

Question for those who understand the LOAC better than I do;  are the atrocities committed by ISIS considered war crimes (in the broad sense) or would they be breeches of international laws and / or crimes against humanity?

Throwing unarmed civilians off buildings, executing women and childen, etc were actions taken during the conflict but not directed towards the 'opposing foce' (Iraq as a nation state, and MESF forces as part of a Coalition). 

Just wondering, from a legal standpoint, which category their actions fall under (with a general understanding that crimes against humanity can fall under the broad definition 'war cime').
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: ModlrMike on October 23, 2018, 00:45:49
Question for those who understand the LOAC better than I do;  are the atrocities committed by ISIS considered war crimes (in the broad sense) or would they be breeches of international laws and / or crimes against humanity?

Throwing unarmed civilians off buildings, executing women and childen, etc were actions taken during the conflict but not directed towards the 'opposing foce' (Iraq as a nation state, and MESF forces as part of a Coalition). 

Just wondering, from a legal standpoint, which category their actions fall under (with a general understanding that crimes against humanity can fall under the broad definition 'war cime').

Not that I understand the LOAC better than you, but I would agree that the above actions constitute crimes against humanity at the very least. Coupled with their other actions such as perfidy, they are broadly classed as war crimes.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Fishbone Jones on October 23, 2018, 02:36:20
Question for those who understand the LOAC better than I do;  are the atrocities committed by ISIS considered war crimes (in the broad sense) or would they be breeches of international laws and / or crimes against humanity?

Throwing unarmed civilians off buildings, executing women and childen, etc were actions taken during the conflict but not directed towards the 'opposing foce' (Iraq as a nation state, and MESF forces as part of a Coalition). 

Just wondering, from a legal standpoint, which category their actions fall under (with a general understanding that crimes against humanity can fall under the broad definition 'war cime').

They've been throwing people off of buildings and killing men, women and children under sharia and religion for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. They've been invading each other just as long. Nobody seemed to worry about crimes against humanity or LOAC then. I see them acting no different now. It's the information age. We just know more about them and still wouldn't care, except we got involved in their gang wars. Now it's affecting us and we want to try use our laws to stop them? They follow a higher (in their minds) calling and they only respect one law and it's not ours. I don't think they are listening and if they are, they don't care. You are not going to deal with this in international courts under any civilized law.
 :2c:
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: FJAG on October 23, 2018, 02:54:14
Question for those who understand the LOAC better than I do;  are the atrocities committed by ISIS considered war crimes (in the broad sense) or would they be breeches of international laws and / or crimes against humanity?

Throwing unarmed civilians off buildings, executing women and childen, etc were actions taken during the conflict but not directed towards the 'opposing foce' (Iraq as a nation state, and MESF forces as part of a Coalition). 

Just wondering, from a legal standpoint, which category their actions fall under (with a general understanding that crimes against humanity can fall under the broad definition 'war cime').

To make a long story short, the acts by IS and it's members--depending on which ones you look at--fall within several categories namely: International Humanitarian Law; International Criminal Law; International Human Rights Law; and/or Customary International Law.

As with much of this law, enforcement is sometimes not easy and sometimes impossible.

For one discussion on the topic, see the Geneva Centre for Security Policy's paper "Does International Law Apply To The Islamic State?" which can be read and/or downloaded from here:

https://www.gcsp.ch/News-Knowledge/Publications/Does-International-Law-Apply-to-the-Islamic-State (https://www.gcsp.ch/News-Knowledge/Publications/Does-International-Law-Apply-to-the-Islamic-State)

Please note that this is but one opinion. There are numerous scholarly and not-so-scholarly opinions/papers on the subject.

Note as well that Part II.1 of the Criminal Code deals with Terrorism.

See here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-11.html#h-25 (https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-11.html#h-25)

The laws here are severely hampered by the need to recover sufficient evidence from a chaotic war zone to lead to a successful prosecution.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 23, 2018, 05:02:50
They've been throwing people off of buildings and killing men, women and children under sharia and religion for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. They've been invading each other just as long. Nobody seemed to worry about crimes against humanity or LOAC then. I see them acting no different now. It's the information age. We just know more about them and still wouldn't care, except we got involved in their gang wars. Now it's affecting us and we want to try use our laws to stop them? They follow a higher (in their minds) calling and they only respect one law and it's not ours. I don't think they are listening and if they are, they don't care. You are not going to deal with this in international courts under any civilized law.
 :2c:

My question was more related to "JIhad Jack" and what his status would be IRT International and Canadian Law.

I do, however, agree with your post.  They (ISIS) came on strong and fast...to the embarrassment of both the governments of Iraq..and the USA.

I still suggest these documentaries for "basic information" to those who don't really *get* where/why ISIS sprang into existence.  Not suggesting they're complete and cover all aspects...

How ISIS Came To Be (https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/how-isis-came-to-be-four-docs-to-watch/?utm_source=TWITTER&utm_medium=social&utm_term=20170710&utm_content=973609638&linkId=39612861)

Gang wars...I don't like that analogy, personally, but that is because I spent a somewhat significant amount of time in that theatre "watching/reporting".  Some nights...your memory and conscience aren't your best friend.   :2c:
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 23, 2018, 05:04:16
To make a long story short, the acts by IS and it's members--depending on which ones you look at--fall within several categories namely: International Humanitarian Law; International Criminal Law; International Human Rights Law; and/or Customary International Law.

As with much of this law, enforcement is sometimes not easy and sometimes impossible.

For one discussion on the topic, see the Geneva Centre for Security Policy's paper "Does International Law Apply To The Islamic State?" which can be read and/or downloaded from here:

https://www.gcsp.ch/News-Knowledge/Publications/Does-International-Law-Apply-to-the-Islamic-State (https://www.gcsp.ch/News-Knowledge/Publications/Does-International-Law-Apply-to-the-Islamic-State)

Please note that this is but one opinion. There are numerous scholarly and not-so-scholarly opinions/papers on the subject.

Note as well that Part II.1 of the Criminal Code deals with Terrorism.

See here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-11.html#h-25 (https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-11.html#h-25)

The laws here are severely hampered by the need to recover sufficient evidence from a chaotic war zone to lead to a successful prosecution.

 :cheers:

Thanks for that!
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: PPCLI Guy on October 23, 2018, 11:47:06
They've been throwing people off of buildings and killing men, women and children under sharia and religion for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. They've been invading each other just as long. Nobody seemed to worry about crimes against humanity or LOAC then. I see them acting no different now. It's the information age. We just know more about them and still wouldn't care, except we got involved in their gang wars. Now it's affecting us and we want to try use our laws to stop them? They follow a higher (in their minds) calling and they only respect one law and it's not ours. I don't think they are listening and if they are, they don't care. You are not going to deal with this in international courts under any civilized law.
 :2c:

I tend to agree with you...
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 23, 2018, 12:19:35

     Abu Ghraib)




The "Center of Excellence" for the insurgency.  A follow-on royal frig-up of the sweep-nets...and (one of several major) contributing factors/events that lead to ISIS "rising up".
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 23, 2018, 12:39:01
The "Center of Excellence" for the insurgency.  A follow-on royal frig-up of the sweep-nets...and (one of several major) contributing factors/events that lead to ISIS "rising up".

When it comes to counter-insurgency, all Armies seem to need to learn the hard way, sadly, like Internment in NI in the 1970s, which resulted in a huge set of unintended consequences:

'Historians generally view the period of internment as inflaming sectarian tensions in Northern Ireland, while failing in its goal of arresting key members of the IRA. Many of the people arrested had no links whatsoever with the IRA, but their names appeared on the list of those to be arrested through bungling and incompetence. The list's lack of reliability and the arrests that followed, complemented by reports of internees being abused far in excess of the usual state violence, led to more nationalists identifying with the IRA and losing hope in non-violent methods. After Operation Demetrius, recruits came forward in huge numbers to join the Provisional and Official wings of the IRA. Internment also led to a sharp increase in violence. In the eight months before the operation, there were 34 conflict-related deaths in Northern Ireland. In the four months following it, 140 were killed.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Demetrius

Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Fishbone Jones on October 23, 2018, 18:21:14
My question was more related to "JIhad Jack" and what his status would be IRT International and Canadian Law.

I do, however, agree with your post.  They (ISIS) came on strong and fast...to the embarrassment of both the governments of Iraq..and the USA.

I still suggest these documentaries for "basic information" to those who don't really *get* where/why ISIS sprang into existence.  Not suggesting they're complete and cover all aspects...

How ISIS Came To Be (https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/how-isis-came-to-be-four-docs-to-watch/?utm_source=TWITTER&utm_medium=social&utm_term=20170710&utm_content=973609638&linkId=39612861)

Gang wars...I don't like that analogy, personally, but that is because I spent a somewhat significant amount of time in that theatre "watching/reporting".  Some nights...your memory and conscience aren't your best friend.   :2c:

Many of us have been in much closer contact with them than watching/reporting. Matter of perspective I guess, not a pissing contest.  :salute:
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Brihard on October 23, 2018, 19:12:09
The laws here are severely hampered by the need to recover sufficient evidence from a chaotic war zone to lead to a successful prosecution.

 :cheers:

Yup, this. There is definitely no lack of thirst to investigate or prosecute this at any level, whether within the investigative teams, the police/intelligence services as a whole, the crown prosecutors' offices, or within the government / cabinet / PMO. Frnakly I'm sure our government would love nothing better right now than a couple of slam dunk prosecutions of Daesh returnees, because they quite rightly fear the impact this issue will have on the election.

We are, in the end, a nation ruled by law, however. I as a police officer am constrained in my job by our system of laws and our Charter of Rights and Freedoms - and quite rightly so! It's correct and appropriate than in a free society I, as an agent of the state possessed of considerable coercive powers, should have to justify my actions. If I want to investigate someone - just like any of you - who may be driving drunk, or accused of assault, dealing drugs, or making threats or committing a fraud or what have you - there are things that might make my job potentially easier but that the law doesn't allow me to do because they would trample your rights. I cannot make you confess to a crime, I generally can't force my way into your home and arbitrarily look for evidence, I can't just take your phone off you and have it searched for evidence without a warrant granted by a judge based on my grounds outlining a reasonable suspicion of an offense. I cannot arbitrarily listen in on your phone calls or seize and analyze your computer. We have mechanisms to do all these things but we have the judiciary as an oversight. I cannot burn certain investigative techniques in court proceedings. I cannot disclose the identity of confidential informants whose lives may be at risk from retribution by criminals. And these are all extraordinary simplistic comparisons in the realm of straight criminal investigations. Add international intelligence gathering and sharing arrangements into the picture, and holy hell does it get tough to use information. There is a whole sector within our national security infrastructure that wrestles with taking security intelligence (e.g., from CSIS, CSE, or foreign allied agencies) and handing off clean tidbits to the RCMP to say 'we can't tell you why, but look at this guy' and to try to build prosecutable criminal cases from there.

On the face of it it's easy to say 'Well OK, but drunk driver versus ISIS terrorist Come on, be reasonable". Yup. We can always pick two examples far removed from each other for comparison. Where it gets much harder is trying to discern the truth when someone purportedly travels overseas to a contested area to visit family, or to engage in humanitarian work, or what have you, and then on the flip side is accused of acts of terrorism. Are they giving money to Daesh, or to a legitimate charity? Might they be blissfully unaware of the difference? Where do we draw the line between combatants that are on the 'good guy' side and those that are not in such a conflict?

All that said- I'm by no means coming to the defense of these Daeshbags. I think among the first steps in effective solutions include better joint targeting and intelligence sharing, precision munitions, and where applicable sound application of the principles of marksmanship. We don't need to worry about prosecuting those dead as combatants on the battlefield. But one way or another we have to face the facts that some will return, and that the waters in many cases will be extremely muddied. It's very easy indeed to say all these people should be investigated, charged, convicted, and thrown in jail. I'm absolutely with everyone else on that part of the principle of this thing, for sure. But the rule of law matters, it's what keeps us the good guys and protects all of you from the dumb crap I could otherwise do in the course of efforts to enforce the law, and whether we like it or not those same protections do not end at some arbitrary line in the sand. I wish things were easier than this, but they're not.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: DetectiveMcNulty on October 23, 2018, 19:26:08
I spent a somewhat significant amount of time in that theatre "watching/reporting".  Some nights...your memory and conscience aren't your best friend.   :2c:

 :salute:








Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: DetectiveMcNulty on October 23, 2018, 19:48:07
Good post Brihard. You are correct (unfortunately) in so many ways, but it also shows why as a country we are weak and vulnerable.

We did have a choice to do more to kill these guys over there. Now we will suffer.

As for Jihadi Jack...you gotta love the article where it shows a picture of him doing the ISIS salute, and the CBC caption mentions his Dad saying he went there to help refugees:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-isis-jihadi-jack-1.4868495 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-isis-jihadi-jack-1.4868495)

WHAT A JOKE!

I threw my bling from IMPACT into a bin somewhere. I've had to resist doing worse. Disgusted I wasted some of the best years of my life on it.

 :not-again:





Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: YZT580 on October 23, 2018, 23:25:44
If they had left Harper's law alone, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Join a terrorist group, don't bother trying to come back because you are no longer a citizen.  Nothing wrong with that.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: dapaterson on October 23, 2018, 23:33:32
If they had left Harper's law alone, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Join a terrorist group, don't bother trying to come back because you are no longer a citizen.  Nothing wrong with that.

Except that was not the law.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 24, 2018, 00:48:03
We should be reaching out to him with an AMAX that's 1/2 inch in diameter...

Damn rights. 3540 or bust.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 24, 2018, 04:29:59

I totally believe our law enforcement people are onboard and don't want these POS in our country but the vibes our government is putting out just doesn't reflect that. Quite the opposite. They seem more about welcoming these wayward and lost souls in the name of diversity and inclusion.

Mass graves are still being discovered, ISIS is still bombing people (6dead 40 injured yesterday), ISIS is still kidnapping and murdering people.  Even if we don't have video evidence of someone committing a crime let's not take the risk and give people who even just "joined ISIS" a refuge in our country. I'm comfortable and happy to keep them out and if we're forced to allow them to come here then I think them being caught with Isis or in the vicinity of is enough grounds to nail them with terrorism charges.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 24, 2018, 13:05:09
Except that was not the law.

Exactly. If we don't like this stuff happening, then we need to change our laws.

However, I've seen enough terrorists receive social services benefits from the country that is fighting against them to know that the 'long game' sometimes includes doing what seems basically schizo at the time.

Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: DetectiveMcNulty on October 24, 2018, 14:17:46
I'm willing to bet if any vigilante justice happens to one of these assclowns that the gov would direct more resources to convicting vigilantes than they spent trying to convict the terrorists.

Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: MarkOttawa on October 24, 2018, 14:20:22
Useful article:

Quote
Canada’s Foreign Fighter Problem is No Surprise
https://www.lawfareblog.com/canadas-foreign-fighter-problem-no-surprise

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: ontheedge on October 25, 2018, 00:19:59
My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Brihard on October 25, 2018, 00:24:16
My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.

Infantry here. What point is it that you’re making?
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: garb811 on October 25, 2018, 00:30:23
My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.
Ontheedge:  I get it.  You're new and have a million questions and are full of what we refer to as piss and vinegar.  But at this point I'm going to advise you to take a few steps back and stop making so many posts based on assumptions.  You really aren't doing yourself a lot of favours right now and you are going to learn a lot more by letting some of these threads play out naturally than you will by what you are doing.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: BeyondTheNow on October 25, 2018, 00:30:40
My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.

I’d caution you, as you’re an individual with no experience as a CAF member, to be more diplomatic and less judgemental with your thoughts towards how you perceive things are being done in certain areas. This was a polite suggestion, as some of your posts can be interpreted negatively.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 25, 2018, 00:38:03
My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.

What’s your point?

Maybe sometimes tough people dispense controlled armed violence on those our government has deemed enemies. Got a problem with that?
Infantry for over 35 years here.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: ontheedge on October 25, 2018, 01:23:00
I was referring mostly to the AMAX comment and the support it got.  I presume it was in jest as was my comment.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: BeyondTheNow on October 25, 2018, 01:26:16
Okay folks, let’s move on with the discussion. The user was inadvertently made aware of his tone by two DS posting the same advisement at the same time, plus he’s had the chance to now view how his comments were received. Good learning opportunity, now time to get back on track.

Staff
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 25, 2018, 01:35:47
Specifically with regard to the topic of returning ISIS fighter and supporters returning to Canada, the more efficiently the infantry and others are permitted to do their job in the battle space, the less fighting in the courtrooms lawyers will have to do.

IF the target is legit and the *targeting process is followed (I won't speak to 'efficiency and timeliness' of that process sometimes  ::)), I don't see a problem.  Unfortunately, this Jihad Jack never ended up in someone's crosshairs so here we are debating his disposition and of those like him.

*OnTheEdge,  you'll hopefully be pleasantly surprised that Legal Officers are involved in the targeting/engagement "stuff" was well with advising on ROEs, and advising Commanders on strike/no-strike decisions. 
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 25, 2018, 10:31:04
I was referring mostly to the AMAX comment and the support it got.  I presume it was in jest as was my comment.

Oh yes in jest. This a??clown jihadi might be responsible for the deaths of a number of innocent people.
By all means let’s bring the poor misunderstood urchin to Canada to cure him of his bad practices.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 27, 2018, 01:34:23
Credit where it's due, a good if surprising move by the government.

Sadly the story highlights how ridiculously slow our justice system can be. Looks like it will still be a while before he's deported.

Quote
A B.C. man whose Facebook posts promoted ISIS and praised lone wolf terrorist attacks has been ordered deported from Canada.

The Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada has ruled that Othman Hamdan of Fort St. John is a "danger to the security of Canada" and is therefore inadmissible.

"While Mr. Hamdan has no history of violence, he has praised lone wolf attacks, actively promoted the Islamic State, disseminated instructions on how to commit attacks and seems fascinated with the extreme violence of the Islamic State demonstrated by possessing Islamic State videos depicting gruesome murders," IRB member Marc Tessler wrote in an Oct. 18 decision.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/man-who-praised-isis-on-social-media-ordered-deported-from-canada-1.4880418?fbclid=IwAR0Cx28TQLM9njcrM3c8FZJ-XmjRdWlGsBp_XWGz5FW3xzUQ75Q_6WZhOqE
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: kratz on October 27, 2018, 01:44:57
Thank you Jarnhamar.

"It's easy to find fault,
It's more challenging to find agreement."
- Unknown

Our system can work.
Title: Feb 2019: Cdn Terror Travellers Sentenced
Post by: milnews.ca on February 28, 2019, 17:30:50
Remember Pamir Hakimzadah mentioned here (https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,116553.msg1509863.html#msg1509863)?

This from Global via Twitter ...
Quote
Pamir Hakimzadah was sentenced Thursday to 6 months for trying to join ISIS, in addition to the time he has spent in custody since his June 2016 arrest (https://twitter.com/StewGlobal/status/1101210531145252865) ... He will be eligible for parole in 3 months. Upon release he must undergo religious counselling and stay away from terror supporters and materials (https://twitter.com/StewGlobal/status/1101210783004815360) ... Because he pleaded guilty, little was publicly aired about the case, but Global News has obtained a summary of the investigation, and it raises questions (https://twitter.com/StewGlobal/status/1101211383167741952). The story (https://globalnews.ca/news/5008031/inside-story-investigation-toronto-isis/): ... How does a terrorism offence with a 10-year maximum become 3 months? (https://twitter.com/StewGlobal/status/1101227675480453120) Sentenced imposed: 4 yrs, 1 mos. Pretrial custody: 792 days x 1.5=3 years, 3 months credit. Days jail was on lockdown: 250=four months credit. Remaining sentence=6 months x .5 parole eligibility Total: 3 mos. ... But the judge did impose 3 years probation with several conditions (https://twitter.com/StewGlobal/status/1101232793521147904): - religious counseling, - psychotherapy, - interview w/probation officer every 6 months on effects of de-radicalization, - no passport, weapons, terror literature etc...

As for the other person mentioned in the above-linked post, Rehab Dughmosh, she got 7 years earlier this month for trying to head to ISIS country and for an attack in a Scarborough Canadian Tire (http://www.rcinet.ca/en/2019/02/14/canadian-tire-attacker-sentenced-to-7-years-in-prison/).
Title: Re: Feb 2019: Cdn Terror Travellers Sentenced
Post by: milnews.ca on February 28, 2019, 20:43:54
A little more (https://www.ppsc-sppc.gc.ca/eng/nws-nvs/2019/28_02_19.html) from the Public Prosecution Service of Canada ...
Quote
Today in the Ontario Superior Court, Pamir Hakimzadah was sentenced to six months in jail in addition to three years and seven months credit for the time he has already spent in custody after pleading guilty earlier this month to leaving Canada to participate in the activity of a terrorist group, contrary to section 83.181 of the Criminal Code.He also receivedthree years of probation requiring adherence to a deradicalization program.

On October 22, 2014, Mr. Hakimzadah left Canada and travelled to Istanbul, Turkey with the intention of entering Syria to join ISIS. He was detained by Turkish officials before he could enter Syria and was deported back to Canada. He was subsequently charged with the offence following an RCMP investigation.

According to the agreed statement of facts, Mr. Hakimzadah had exhibited increasingly radical Islamic beliefs prior to his departure, speaking in favour of, or in defence of ISIS. He viewed online ISIS videos and posts, as well as a website on how to get into Syria ...
Title: More Canadian ISIS "terror travellers" ID'ed
Post by: milnews.ca on March 17, 2019, 11:14:52
Another couple of Canadian dual citizens identified as "guests" of Kurdish forces in Syria (https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2019/03/syria-kurdish-region-isis-prison-sdf.html) ...
Quote
... Safraz Ali, a 39-year-old dual Trinidadian and Canadian citizen, says he was recruited by fellow Trinidadians and joined the Islamic State in 2015 “to help the Syrian people.” He explained, “I didn’t seek out [IS execution] videos. I was against all of that. They sent me to Iraq to fight. I refused and fled to Syria on a bus. I had trauma training. I would go out after coalition bombings and pick up wounded children and take them to the hospital.” He ended up in Al Bab, where “people were so kind they would give you the shirts off their backs.” After Turkish troops captured the town in 2016 he moved on to Raqqa. “People were much harsher, crueler there.”

Ali is rail thin. His eyes are glazed. He seems weak. “I have terminal Crohn’s disease,” he said. “They don’t have proper medicine here. I have rectal bleeding, dizzy spells and blurry vision.” He clutches an inhaler in his hand. “Asthma,” he explains. He says he is scared but far more concerned for his wife. It emerges that he is married to Kimberley Gwen Polman, 46, a dual US and Canadian citizen he met in Raqqa who was profiled by the New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/19/us/islamic-state-american-women.html).

They were married in 2016 and made plans to flee together soon after. They were in touch with Polman’s family and a Canadian official who handled such cases, he claimed. The pair was ratted out by spies and briefly imprisoned in Raqqa and continued to plot their escape once they were freed. “We led the life of fugitives,” he said, describing a harrowing odyssey that took the couple from Raqqa to Mayadeen and then Hajin. They finally turned themselves over to SDF forces a little over a month ago. “We desperately wanted to have children. Kimberley had five miscarriages,” he said. “I spend all my time thinking about my wife.”

I feel sorry for him and offer reasons he might have joined the Islamic State. His father, a Christian, and his mother, a Muslim, were divorced. Had he had a rough childhood? His Gandhi-like demeanor evaporates. “You are psychologically profiling me,” he said with a cold, hard look. It's time to end the conversation. The minder handcuffs Ali and leads him away.

I'll also slowly bring in other posts/threads here to offer up a "one-stop window" of open-source info on Canadians playing on the ISIS team.  I'll leave the threads dealing with specific, individual court proceedings stand alone for now.
Title: Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
Post by: Cloud Cover on March 17, 2019, 16:55:44
Credit where it's due, a good if surprising move by the government.

Sadly the story highlights how ridiculously slow our justice system can be. Looks like it will still be a while before he's deported.
 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/man-who-praised-isis-on-social-media-ordered-deported-from-canada-1.4880418?fbclid=IwAR0Cx28TQLM9njcrM3c8FZJ-XmjRdWlGsBp_XWGz5FW3xzUQ75Q_6WZhOqE

His appeal ended up in his favour so far despite this strong statement by the Federal Court Judge:
“[1]  Mr. Hamdan is an unmitigated liar. One must wonder if he has uttered one truthful word since he came to Canada in 2002. His refugee claim was accepted in 2004. The basis thereof was that he had converted to Christianity from Islam and faced a serious risk of persecution should he be returned to Jordan.” 

...

“[17]  Although the evidence in this case may be somewhat scanty, there is some evidence to suggest that a misrepresentation had indeed taken place. In context, scanty evidence can support an inference to find as a fact that an event actually occurred (Whirlpool Inc. v Camco Inc., 2000 SCC 67 (CanLII), [2000] 2 SCR 1067. The only evidence from Mr. Hamdan was his denial. The record clearly shows that his word is not to be trusted so that the presumption he is telling the truth is rebutted (Maldonado v. Canada (M.E.I.), [1980] 2 FC 302 (C.A.)).
[18]  For these reasons, judicial review is allowed and the matter is referred back to the IRB for redetermination before a new member, both with respect to religion and criminality.”

His misrepresentation: he may be a drug dealer at one time, and since Hamas frowns on wealth created by illegal acts not controlled by them, his life might be at risk in Jordan.


   Canada (Citizenship and Immigration) v. Hamdan, 2018 FC 1177 (CanLII), <http://canlii.ca/t/hw8gh (https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/fct/doc/2018/2018fc1177/2018fc1177.html)>, retrieved on 2019-03-17

- mod edit to make link work -
Title: Re: More Canadian ISIS "terror travellers" ID'ed
Post by: milnews.ca on April 09, 2019, 20:54:15
A bit of data culling (https://globalnews.ca/news/5117211/deadly-export-canadian-terrorists/) ....
Quote
A suicide bomber from Calgary strikes near Baghdad. A Windsor man masterminds the torture and killing of foreigners at a Dhaka bakery. Two London, Ont., gunmen take hostages at a gas plant in the Algerian desert.

Canadian terrorists have killed and injured more than 300 in other countries since 2012, according to figures compiled by Global News that document the victims of so-called extremist travellers.

Fatal attacks in Algeria, Bangladesh, Bulgaria, Iraq, Russia, Somalia and Syria were attributed to Canadians during that time. An attack in Michigan resulted in no deaths but seriously injured a police officer.

Citizens of 19 countries were killed in attacks involving Canadian perpetrators, including locals and British, Colombian, French, Indian, Israeli, Italian, Filipino, Japanese, Malaysian, Norwegian, Romanian and U.S. nationals.

The majority of killings were claimed by the so-called Islamic State, while others were the work of Al Qaeda affiliates and Hezbollah, but attacks by Al Qaeda-aligned groups were more deadly ...
More @ link
Title: Re: More Canadian ISIS "terror travellers" ID'ed
Post by: DetectiveMcNulty on April 09, 2019, 21:14:58
Maybe if we stopped importing so many terrorists, they wouldn't breed here and become exports? Other countries send SOF in the early morning hours to kill their own citizens that have betrayed them. We take ours back, apologize for allowing them to be radicalized, and then ask them how much money and which of our daughters they would like...

 :2c:
Title: Re: More Canadian ISIS "terror travellers" ID'ed
Post by: milnews.ca on May 30, 2019, 21:53:14
Some of the latest (https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/lawyer-calls-for-canada-to-bring-isis-bride-and-her-newborn-son-home-1.4441654) ...
Quote
A so-called Canadian “ISIS bride” who is stuck in a Syrian refugee camp with her newborn baby has been given no indication of coming home, despite the increasingly dangerous living conditions her family is facing.

Aimee, whose last name CTV News has previously agreed not to reveal, gave birth to her third son Mohammed last week while living among the hundreds of fellow widows of former ISIS fighters in a special section of the al-Hawl refugee camp in eastern Syria.

Aimee travelled to Syria from Alberta four years ago with her Canadian husband who later died in fighting for ISIS. She later married another fighter, but he was killed as well. Mohammed is her second husband’s son.

CTV News’ Paul Workman profiled Aimee’s story in February as she pleaded to come home, but since then there has been little action on the part of the Canadian government, while the conditions at the camp have worsened ...
Title: Re: More Canadian ISIS "terror travellers" ID'ed
Post by: Jarnhamar on May 30, 2019, 22:48:37
Quote
but since then there has been little action on the part of the Canadian government, while the conditions at the camp have worsened ...

Absolutely no ****s given here.
Title: Re: More Canadian ISIS "terror travellers" ID'ed
Post by: Brihard on May 31, 2019, 02:13:50
Absolutely no ****s given here.

Yup. If they're citizens, the government has to let them in at the border. It doesn't need to send them a plane or buy them a ticket.

That said- whether we like it or not, we will continue to grapple with this for years to come. There will be returnees who make it back that we don't have grounds to criminally charge and who, by virtue of being born in Canada or having acquired citizenship honestly and before any radicalization took place, cannot have citizenships revoked nor be removed from the country

Out of those, a portion will be hardcore and probably irredeemable. But some are going to be young fools who really, really screwed up, had their eyes opened, and now realize it. Not unlike those who 'demobilize' from gang life, really. There has to be a plan in place to deal with them; a plan that complies with our laws. I do not envy those who have to craft such policy.
Title: Re: More Canadian ISIS "terror travellers" ID'ed
Post by: Colin P on May 31, 2019, 12:08:36
I don't suppose setting up a Trans-Ontario railway project where they can build the railway by hand from Attawapiskat to Lake Winnipeg and live in Gulags Umm camps is doable?  8)
Title: Re: More Canadian ISIS "terror travellers" ID'ed
Post by: milnews.ca on June 03, 2019, 21:47:06
The latest stats from an academic tracking this stuff (source (https://twitter.com/AmarAmarasingam/status/1135605331059494912)) ...
Title: Re: More Canadian ISIS "terror travellers" ID'ed
Post by: Brihard on June 03, 2019, 22:53:38
I think the government realizes that, even if they were so inclined, repatriation just before an already difficult election would be politically challenging.
Title: Re: More Canadian ISIS "terror travellers" ID'ed
Post by: tomahawk6 on June 04, 2019, 19:40:28
Read an article todat about a number of captured French fighters have been sentenced to hang by the Iraqi courts. France doesn't want them back and Iraq doesn't want them either , so ……

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/iraq-court-sentences-two-french-men-to-death-for-being-isis-fighters-2046783


Title: Re: More Canadian ISIS "terror travellers" ID'ed
Post by: Brihard on June 06, 2019, 13:08:08
https://globalnews.ca/news/5346883/crimes-against-humanity-charges-canadians-syria/

Quote from: Global News
RCMP explores crimes against humanity charges for Canadian ISIS members
 By Stewart Bell
National Online Journalist, Investigative
Global News


The RCMP is looking into whether war crimes laws can be used to prosecute Canadians detained in Syria over their alleged involvement in the so-called Islamic State, Global News has learned.

National security investigators are exploring not only whether terrorism charges are warranted, but also whether the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act could apply, officials said.


While war crimes-related prosecutions are extremely rare in Canada, with 32 Canadians detained in Syria by U.S.-backed forces following the collapse of ISIS, the possibility of charges is being examined.

The investigations are part of the RCMP’s preparations for the possible return to Canada of captured ISIS members.

READ MORE: ‘We need to get ready’: RCMP planning for return of Canadian ISIS members

Asked about the issue Thursday, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said he had confidence in the RCMP but added that one of the challenges was “making the translation from intelligence gathering activities to presenting evidence of crimes.”

“That is something that the RCMP, our intelligence agencies and indeed agencies around the world are struggling with and working on very hard,” he said from Juno Beach.

None of the Canadians held in Syria have been charged under Canada’s anti-terrorism laws, which make it illegal to knowingly participate in the activity of a terrorist group. The maximum sentence is 10 years.

By contrast, war crimes-related laws outlaw participation in genocide, crimes against humanity or war crimes committed anywhere in the world. A conviction carries a possible life sentence.

Crimes against humanity include murder, enslavement, imprisonment, torture, sexual violence, persecution “or any other inhumane act” against a civilian population or identifiable group.

ISIS members openly engaged in all those crimes as they imposed their version of Islamic law on the local populations of Syria and northern Iraq, particularly against minority Yazidis.

But a national security law expert said prosecuting war crimes and crimes against humanity is demanding and it might be simpler to charge the Canadians under anti-terrorism laws.

Leah West said prosecutors would have to prove not only the culpability of the accused but also the context of the offence, demonstrating that it was done as part of a crime against humanity.

“So, I don’t see why you would go to that extent to prove these crimes, rather than charging the crime we have on the books to deal with exactly what they’ve done, which is go overseas to support a terrorist group.”

A former Department of Justice lawyer and now a doctoral candidate at the University of Toronto Faculty of Law, West said crimes against humanity laws might apply to some of the activities of the Canadians.

But even if they went to Syria to marry ISIS fighters and bear children for the so-called caliphate, that could still warrant a terrorism charge, she said.

“Prosecutors tend to want to walk the easiest path to proving criminal liability. Charging Canadians who supported ISIS overseas under the War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity Act rather than terrorism offences under the Criminal Code isn’t the easier path.”

Six Canadian men, 9 women and 17 children are among the hundreds of foreigners held in camps and makeshift prisons in northeast Syria after being taken into custody during the fall of ISIS.

The U.S. has been encouraging countries to repatriate and prosecute their citizens. The Liberal government has said it can’t because it would be too dangerous to take them out through Iraq or Turkey.

The RCMP, however, has begun working on the assumption that the Canadians will eventually come back and has been studying possible travel routes for their return as well as building criminal cases against them.

War crimes laws have already been used in Germany, where a woman who joined ISIS was charged with crimes against humanity over the death of a five-year-old Yazidi slave she and her husband bought in Mosul.

Canada has a mixed record with such prosecutions.

In 2009, a Quebec court convicted Désiré Munyaneza of seven counts of war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide over atrocities in Rwanda in 1994. He was sentenced to life.

Jacques Mungwarere, a refugee claimant arrested in Windsor in 2009, was also prosecuted for genocide for his alleged role in Rwanda but an Ontario judge found him not guilty in 2013.

The only known case in which Canada has used war crimes law in relation to ISIS involved a Lebanese mechanic who repaired vehicles for ISIS and who is now living in British Columbia.

Rather than putting him on trial, Canadian authorities intervened in his refugee case and are attempting to deport him. He was found complicit in crimes against humanity but is appealing.

On Monday, the Swedish government hosted a meeting of officials from Germany, France, the United Kingdom, and other European governments to discuss establishing a tribunal to prosecute ISIS members.

“Administering justice in the region, by means of a tribunal or some other legal mechanism, could complement national legal proceedings and contribute to accountability for the crimes committed during the conflict in Syria and Iraq,” Sweden said in a statement.

In the latest CTC Sentinel, a publication of the Combating Terrorism Centre at West Point, Brian Michael Jenkins argued that “bluster and muddle” was not a viable way of dealing with the ISIS detainees.

“This is not an option, but policy by default,” the veteran terrorism scholar wrote. “It describes the current situation. Warnings and threats prompt concern, but international co-ordination remains too complicated.”

I had surmised that in the background this was probably quietly underway, but it's an interesting update on the 'what the hell are we gonna do with these guys?'

The War Crimes Program is interesting- multi agency, multi disciplinary. You've got the RCMP, CBSA, Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship Canada, and Department of Justice all working hand in hand on these. Allegations are evaluated in a joint manner, and a determination made as to what 'remedy' (or remedies) is most applicable. Criminal prosecutions are rare for all the same challenges I've elaborated on previously regarding terrorism prosecutions, but they've got a pretty decent track record of building up solid cases leading to refusal of refugee/asylum status, revocation of such status, revocation of citizenship, and removal from Canada of those deemed inadmissible. Part of the strategy is fighting 'impunity' and denying Canada as a safe haven for those complicit.

Unfortunately it still doesn't crack the tough nut of successfully prosecuting thsoe who are citizens and who didn't obtain their citizenship through fraud or deception... But it's something.
Title: Re: More Canadian ISIS "terror travellers" ID'ed
Post by: milnews.ca on June 08, 2019, 19:20:22
Another one (https://globalnews.ca/news/5365018/canadian-isis-infiltrate-u-s/), this time with some (at least alleged) specifics ...
Quote
A Canadian detained in Syria has alleged that ISIS asked him to infiltrate the United States through its southern border to attack financial targets, according to researchers.

Speaking to the International Center for the Study of Violent Extremism, Abu Henricki al Canadi said he was instructed to travel to Puerto Rico, take a boat to Mexico and cross into the U.S.

“What they wanted to do, basically, is they wanted to do financial attacks. Financial attacks to cripple the economy,” he said in the May 12 interview conducted at a prison in northeast Syria.

The 39-year-old said he was not told the full details but the operation was masterminded by a New Jersey man and he assumed it was a bombing mission that would strike financial targets in the New York area.

“I haven’t told anyone this information,” he said.

Abu Henricki is a dual citizen of Canada and Trinidad. He is married to a British Columbia woman. Both were captured earlier this year by the U.S.-backed Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) during the collapse of ISIS.

He claimed the ISIS intelligence wing approached him about the plot in 2016 “because I’m from that area” but he declined to take part, prompting him to be imprisoned in Manbij, Syria until 2017.

“I refused to do it. That is why also I’m put into prison and been tortured,” he said, adding he had been beaten, suspended, starved and waterboarded by ISIS during his detention.

Fifteen Canadian adults are being detained by Kurdish-led forces. Another 17 Canadian children are also being held. To date, none have been charged by Canadian authorities ...
And if you don't believe #BoughtMedia, there's this (https://www.icsve.org/isis-fighter-claims-attack-plot-via-mexico-underscoring-border-vulnerability/) from the Int'l Ctr for the Study of Violent Extremism (ICSVE) ...
Quote
... Abu Henricki al Canadi[5], a Canadian with dual citizenship with Trinidad, who was detained by the SDF in Rojava, Syria spoke with ICSVE researchers for about 1.5 hours on May 12, 2019 giving his first-hand account of being attracted to, traveling, joining and serving in the Islamic State Caliphate, first as a fighter and later designated as unable to fight due to chronic illness. As we were about to bring the interview to a close, Abu Henricki suddenly decided he trusted us enough to unburden himself of something that he claimed had been troubling him for some time.

 “There’s something that’s kind of like was playing in the mind in the past a little while now,” he told us. “I have been contacted by two organizations from the U.S. and Canada to help stop foreign attacks. The one guy in Canada wants to take me under his wing,” he explained his eyes widening. “Another one [the American intel] wants me to go around to people I met, Americans from Texas.” That foreign intelligence also interviews the imprisoned ISIS cadres we talk with and tries to learn from them, and perhaps also recruit them as informants, is no surprise to us, as we frequently hear about it from those we have interviewed in SDF and Iraqi prisons.

(...)

Abu Henricki then opens up about a plot in which he and other Trinidadians were invited to attempt to penetrate the U.S. borders to mount financial attacks on the U.S.  When asked how this occurred, he explains, “The emni [ISIS intelligence arm] was inviting us,” which matches other cases we and others have uncovered, in which the ISIS external emni identifies ISIS cadres willing to go home or attack in countries outside the Caliphate.[6] When asked if he can identify the emni member who invited him, as they routinely wore masks covering their faces, Abu Henricki answers, “He speaks English. He was Tunisian, maybe. I don’t know.  He approached the guys, and they approached me. He didn’t come directly to me.”

This was in the end of 2016. “They, what they will have, what they wanted to do basically is they wanted to do financial attacks. Financial attacks to cripple the [U.S.] economy,” Abu Henricki explains. “Apparently, they have the contacts or whatever papers they can get to a false ID, false passports [to send me out for this kind of attack,] he adds. “They have their system of doing it. So that’s maybe the way that I could have gone out with other individuals. It wasn’t me alone. They were sending you to Puerto Rico and from Puerto Rico [to Mexico].”

“One reason while I was also put in [ISIS] prison in 2016, I was asked to leave [ISIS] to go to America because I’m from that area. Cause they wanted [and] planned to do something and I refused.” Abu Henricki explains. “I refused to do it. That is why also I’m put into [ISIS] prison and been tortured,” he states.

(...)

When asked about the ISIS plot, he explains, “They were going to move me to the Mexican side [of the U.S. southern border] via Puerto Rico. This was mastermind[ed] by a guy in America.

Where he is, I do not know. That information, the plan came from someone from the New Jersey state from America. I was going to take a boat [from Puerto Rico] into Mexico. He was going to smuggle me in,” Abu Henricki explains. “I don’t know where I’d end up. Please be advised, I was not willing to do it,” Abu Henricki adds, wanting to be sure we don’t think he was willing to attack innocent civilians inside the U.S. “But this is one of their wicked, one of the plans that they had,” he explains, “and which I would like to think I foiled the plan by not being part of it.”

While Abu Henricki was told that the aim of the plot was to attack the financial system, as is often the case, the full details of the plot were not disclosed to him. “All I could think of was a bombing mission,” Abu Henricki explains to us, his face becoming deathly serious. Given that the mastermind was from New Jersey, it may have been aimed at New York financial targets ...
More @ link, or in attached PDF.