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The Newsroom => Military Current Affairs & News => Topic started by: milnews.ca on August 01, 2016, 18:43:48

Title: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 01, 2016, 18:43:48
Bringing it back to Canada ...
Remember where you read it first!
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: jollyjacktar on February 08, 2018, 20:46:24
Somebody's heard about the Liberal welcome wagon for the nicest ISIS.   :nod:

That's because Britons don't want him.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/jihadi-jack-isis-consular-1.4526882
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Target Up on February 08, 2018, 21:10:45
Let the ******* rot.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Cloud Cover on February 08, 2018, 21:15:51
Come on, we all know they will let him in eventually either by political decision or lawsuit coercion. He might have to wait until after the next election, but he will get in unless YPG does the world a favour ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: jollyjacktar on February 08, 2018, 21:18:57
A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian...here's your 10.5 cha ching
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on February 08, 2018, 21:30:28
If he brings some kids with him he'll be entitled to $3600 a month.

Might as well top it off and get him a job at Veterans Affairs lol
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: jollyjacktar on February 08, 2018, 21:32:50
Or the PMO
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on February 08, 2018, 21:43:03
Just remember that returning ISIS members 'are a powerful voice'.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Cloud Cover on February 08, 2018, 21:48:49
If he brings some kids with him he'll be entitled to $3600 a month.

That's just plain disgusting. 
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on February 09, 2018, 02:02:11
Just remember that returning ISIS members 'are a powerful voice'.

F**k him. Let him rot
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brihard on February 09, 2018, 02:45:38
Legally, if he is a Canadian citizen, the government has no right or authority to prevent him from re-entering the country should he eventually gain his freedom. But, they are also under no obligation to lift a finger to try to get him out of jail or to pay his way back here either. I hope that they do not.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: pbi on February 09, 2018, 08:17:31
He made a decision. Let him live by it. And thus a message to anybody else who gets similar ideas.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on February 09, 2018, 08:45:18
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/world/jihadi-jack-letts-syria-1.4385163

His parents sound like real winners.  The article tries to paint this kid like a victim, typical.

Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Primus on February 09, 2018, 09:21:32
Trudeau will have poetry ready for him to feel less inclined to kill infidels. 

On a side note, what’s with almost every news outlet posting pics of him as a kid? The attempts to get the public to feel sorry for him by twisting the narrative is pretty ****ed up.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: HappyWithYourHacky on February 09, 2018, 09:35:53
Just remember that returning ISIS members 'are a powerful voice'.

You mean "returning foreign terrorist travelers" are a powerful voice.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: EOO on February 09, 2018, 10:31:05
I will like to see the issue through objective lenses. Is Jihadi Jack a Canadian? if the answer is yes, Canada can have him back with high priority surveillance put on him as part of the condition of having him back.

He must be willing to give something in exchange for his acceptance back into the country. I will rather that Canada has ears and eyes on these guys than playing politics.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on February 09, 2018, 11:36:27
I will like to see the issue through objective lenses. Is Jihadi Jack a Canadian? if the answer is yes, Canada can have him back with high priority surveillance put on him as part of the condition of having him back.



He's also a British citizen. Can we legally say piss off since he had another option?

Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Teager on February 09, 2018, 12:29:04
He's also a British citizen. Can we legally say piss off since he had another option?

I think that's what the British are saying since he's also Canadian.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brihard on February 09, 2018, 12:32:35
He's also a British citizen. Can we legally say piss off since he had another option?

Nope. Again, we need do nothing whatsoever to help him get here, but if he manages to show up at a port of entry, he’s allowed in, full stop. The right of a citizen to enter, remain in or leave Canada is written right into the charter and there’s no way around that at all.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Journeyman on February 09, 2018, 12:44:24
....written right into the charter and there’s no way around that at all.
Since some people wring their hands at the whole 'terrorist hunting, extrajudicial killing' issue.... like it's a bad thing.  :whistle:


   ;)
  ^^^
this means "not serious(for those who require it be spelled out)
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on February 09, 2018, 13:13:43
Nope. Again, we need do nothing whatsoever to help him get here, but if he manages to show up at a port of entry, he’s allowed in, full stop. The right of a citizen to enter, remain in or leave Canada is written right into the charter and there’s no way around that at all.

Ah, right. Thank you.  We did stop some Canadian citizens from leaving Canada to join ISIS though didn't we? Guessing that's some kind of clause for citizens having a right to leave the country or something?


In any case this guy seems like a POS and hopefully he remains right where he is. His parents are either super stupid or closet ISIS supporters. i suspect the latter. As EOO sagely points out the blatant attempts to humanize and victimize Jihadi Jack with child pictures is quite obvious. 
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brihard on February 09, 2018, 15:11:53
Ah, right. Thank you.  We did stop some Canadian citizens from leaving Canada to join ISIS though didn't we? Guessing that's some kind of clause for citizens having a right to leave the country or something?


In any case this guy seems like a POS and hopefully he remains right where he is. His parents are either super stupid or closet ISIS supporters. i suspect the latter. As EOO sagely points out the blatant attempts to humanize and victimize Jihadi Jack with child pictures is quite obvious.

Passport revocation. Nothing stops them getting on a boat or going for a swim, but it makes it damned hard to leave the country when you can’y Enter the US or board an international flight.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: FJAG on February 09, 2018, 15:46:18
Let me throw in a few comments while stating that I'm far from an expert on this topic.

The problem with this guy, as far as I can glean from the news and the web, is that he was never in Canada. He was born in the UK to a Canadian father and Brit mother and lived all of his life in the UK until he left Oxford to wander around Syria.

His passport has nothing to do with being a Canadian citizen (while I do not know for sure, I suspect he doesn't even have a Canadian one). His status is based on being the first generation descendant of a Canadian citizen.

Much, if not all, of the legislation under the Combating Terrorism Act (which has been incorporated in Part II.1 of the Criminal Code) creates offences relating to "everyone who leaves or attempts to leave Canada for the purpose of . . . etc etc" That wouldn't apply in these circumstances.

There are terrorist offences over which Canada claims extra-territorial jurisdiction but they require actual proof that the listed offence was committed. My guess is that because of the circumstances that such clear evidence of him having committed an offence over which Canada can claim such jurisdiction will be hard to come by and that if we do help him out to come here he will escape any consequences.

Considering the stance that the Liberals have taken with respect to reversing prior legislation facilitating stripping citizenship from persons with dual citizenship in certain circumstances they are now between a rock and a hard place.

Personally I believe they deserve to be there. The problem is that there is probably a vocal constituency of the Liberals who feel that bringing this ******* to Canada is the right thing to do. Hopefully they'll be in a decreasing minority.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on February 09, 2018, 15:55:42
Well put FJAG.

I think everyone knows my feelings on terrorists.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brihard on February 09, 2018, 19:43:45
Agreed. Extremely well put, and I agree fully. I unfortunately find myself sometimes at odds with my own beliefs and desires on this subject, versus my respect for the rule of law and my absolute belief that it must be diligently upheld.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Thucydides on February 09, 2018, 19:53:37
There is a spirit as well as the letter of the law....

If we can't openly say "no" then simply remain silent and ignore his pleas.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: FSTO on February 09, 2018, 21:02:49
According to Murray Brewster's twitter, Canadian Diplomats are attempting to contact our the UK's misguided yute.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: jollyjacktar on February 09, 2018, 21:23:43
I hope the Kurds tell them to go pound sand.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Cloud Cover on February 09, 2018, 22:00:21
Well thats just it, they are "holding" him, so hold a "trial" and do the right thing...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Loachman on February 10, 2018, 01:36:34
https://www.thelocal.se/20180209/kurds-demand-sweden-take-back-its-is-fighters

“The second thing is that if they have committed crimes where they are, they should be put in front of a court there, where there is a possibility of investigating them.”
 
He denied that Sweden was trying to duck the foreign fighters issue.
 
“What I want is for people who have committed crimes to face justice in some way or another,” he said.
 
“It’s important that we can send the signal that if you go to another country to join a terrorist sect and carry out terrible violent acts, that you risk punishment.”
 
He warned that Sweden had yet to criminalise involvement in a terrorist organisation, making it hard to punish Isis fighters solely for their allegiance to the group.
 
“Those people have carried out a long list of crimes there, like murder, kidnapping, rape, arson. It’s always more effective to investigate that sort of thing right where it happened.”
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: tomahawk6 on March 05, 2018, 19:10:09
Captured foreign fighters face the death penalty.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: jollyjacktar on March 05, 2018, 19:32:45
Sadly, not with us.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Target Up on March 05, 2018, 19:44:22
Captured foreign fighters face the death penalty.

Here they get 10.5 mil and a free ipad.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on March 05, 2018, 19:49:13
Here they get 10.5 mil and a free ipad.

But at least it wasn't 15 million right? We sure dodged a bullet :)
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Cloud Cover on March 05, 2018, 20:43:29
Captured foreign fighters face the death penalty.
In Sweden? I hope  the IKEA folding kitchen guillotine does more than slice carrots!
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on March 05, 2018, 20:59:14
In Sweden? I hope  the IKEA folding kitchen guillotine does more than slice carrots!

Have you read about what's going on in Sweden?

Quote
Authorities in Sweden are prosecuting a 70-year-old woman for a hate crime.

Her alleged crime? She wrote on Facebook that she saw migrants defecating in the streets and setting fire to cars.

Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Cloud Cover on March 05, 2018, 21:22:40
Coming soon to a street near you...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 09, 2018, 10:25:16
Canadian member of Islamic State caught, but it’s unclear what charges he might face


*fixed link
https://globalnews.ca/news/4526514/canadian-isis-caught-in-turkey/

Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Old Sweat on October 09, 2018, 12:28:49
Canadian member of Islamic State caught, but it’s unclear what charges he might face


https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/exclusive-canadian-member-of-islamic-state-caught-but-it’s-unclear-what-charges-he-might-face/ar-BBO6WO6

Based on our past performances, a formal apology and a $10.5 million award would be not too far out of line.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 09, 2018, 14:40:01
Maybe sent to a healing lodge to cure him of bad practices.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Target Up on October 10, 2018, 00:09:57
Canadian member of Islamic State caught, but it’s unclear what charges he might face


https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/exclusive-canadian-member-of-islamic-state-caught-but-it’s-unclear-what-charges-he-might-face/ar-BBO6WO6

No charges, room service and pay-per-view will be complimentary.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 10, 2018, 06:39:56
Quote
A high-profile Canadian member of the so-called Islamic State has been caught while attempting to return to Canada, Global News has confirmed.

Muhammad Ali, 28, who left Toronto in 2014 to join ISIS, was captured by Kurdish forces as he tried to flee from Syria to Turkey.

Global News interviewed Ali at a makeshift prison where he is being held by the U.S.-backed Syrian Democratic Forces, or SDF, the military alliance that controls northeast Syria.

The former Ryerson University student, who went by Abu Turaab Al-Kanadi, was taken into custody four months ago in Ras al-Ayn, on the Turkish border.

At the time, he was with his Canadian wife, former Vancouver resident Rida Jabbar, and their two children, both born in Syria.

His family is being detained at a camp not far from the prison where Kurdish, American and British officials have been interrogating Ali.

His capture is significant because, aside from serving as a sniper, Ali used social media to encourage others to join ISIS and conduct terrorist attacks .





Well, according to PM Trudeau, ISIS fighters can be “an extraordinarily powerful voice” in Canada...







Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 17, 2018, 12:39:35
Apparently our government (allegedly) proactively reached out to British ISIS fighter of some norioty, Jihadi Jack.

Quote
During question period on Tuesday, Conservative Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer asked Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to explain why Canadian officials had reached out to a British 22-year-old with Canadian citizenship who is imprisoned by Kurdish forces in Syria.

“This government proactively reached out to try to bring this individual, who has fought with a terrorist organization, back to Canada. They took it upon themselves to reach out to bring this individual to Canada, why?” Scheer demanded.

Trudeau responded to Scheer’s questions broadly, stating that his government takes “with the utmost seriousness, the threats posed by travelling extremists.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/4557701/andrew-scheer-trudeau-jihadi-jack/amp/


The quote above doesn't do Trudeau's response justice. You really need to see a clip from said question period to see how skilled Trudeau is becoming at deflection.

Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: reverse_engineer on October 17, 2018, 15:28:18
Apparently our government (allegedly) proactively reached out to British ISIS fighter of some norioty, Jihadi Jack.
 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/4557701/andrew-scheer-trudeau-jihadi-jack/amp/


The quote above doesn't do Trudeau's response justice. You really need to see a clip from said question period to see how skilled Trudeau is becoming at deflection.

I think we should gift the returning fighters to the Yazidis. Justice and diplomacy all at once.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: ontheedge on October 17, 2018, 16:39:10
As much as I’m not a fan of Trudeau, seems like he handled this one correctly. There is obviously an intelligent gathering benefit from having a former extremist spy for Canada within Canada. And that if Jack starts causing trouble we have the tools to watch him closely.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 17, 2018, 16:55:43
Quote from: ontheedge
a former extremist spy for Canada within Canada.

Am I missing something here?

Quote
And that if Jack starts causing trouble we have the tools to watch him closely.

Lol no thanks. Let's not bring more terrorists into Canada.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: NavyShooter on October 17, 2018, 18:17:21
We should be reaching out to him with an AMAX that's 1/2 inch in diameter...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: reverse_engineer on October 17, 2018, 18:37:03
We should be reaching out to him with an AMAX that's 1/2 inch in diameter...

If feeding them to crocodiles isn’t an option, I guess I’d settle for Canada doing them with a .50
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 17, 2018, 19:37:10
We should be reaching out to him with an AMAX that's 1/2 inch in diameter...

I can think of a few things we could use to communicate with him:

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.seaforces.org%2Fwpnsys%2FSURFACE%2FRGM-84-Harpoon_DAT%2FRGM-84-Harpoon-042.jpg&hash=cb3ec825d53ffca66180a6fd054ffaaa)
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 17, 2018, 20:39:25
I think Iraq has set the standard for 'severity and celerity', and gender neutrality, here:


'They deserve no mercy': Iraq deals briskly with accused 'women of Isis'
 
A Baghdad court has sentenced more than 40 foreign women to death after 10-minute hearings

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/22/they-deserve-no-mercy-iraq-deals-briskly-with-accused-women-of-isis
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: BurnDoctor on October 17, 2018, 22:11:37
I feel this is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

For one, these cases would seem to meet the Criminal Code of Canada definition of treason; namely someone holding Canadian citizenship taking up arms against Canada or her allies. Yet we've heard no talk of prosecuting these "foreign fighters" or "travelling extremists", as the Government alternately calls them.

Secondly, their atrocities are not compatible with coexisting in civilized society.

Finally, having these individuals in Canada cheapens the citizenship of law-abiding Canadians, cheapens the service of CF members by essentially having the government in the role of fifth columnists, aiding and abetting the enemy, and dishonours the memory of CF members killed fighting extremism overseas. Presumeably an implicit reason for the effort in Afghanistan (in addition to the NATO obligation, and denying Afghanistan as a safe haven to extremists) was to avoid fighting extremists here by doing it  there. Why do that if we just turn around and let the enemy back? Why have Op Impact if we just welcome the enemy back, one of whom (M. Ali) has said that he no longer considers himself Canadian? This sickens me, and I know I can't be the only one.

Yes, there are some legal considerations - I get that - but if Trudeau can drag his feet on TMX and get nothing done, he could ld drag his feet on this too, and they could stay abroad indefinitely.

Time to go have a rage workout.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Colin P on October 18, 2018, 11:33:33
They can return to Canada, once they have been cleared of wrong doing in the country they committed the crime in or have served their sentence out.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: reverse_engineer on October 18, 2018, 12:15:16
They can return to Canada, once they have been cleared of wrong doing in the country they committed the crime in or have served their sentence out.

As long as we don’t repatriate their remains after their death sentences.

Ramp ceremonies are for soldiers, not murderers and rapists.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Cloud Cover on October 19, 2018, 18:36:46
If the plane is on the ground, then yes.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: ontheedge on October 22, 2018, 01:31:49
There was an incredible podcast called Caliphate. Ten part series or something. Went into great detail and interviews with former ISIS Canadian. Highly recommend this podcast for folks interested in the subject. Major takeaway:  proving crimes overseas is a difficult task according to canadian criminal justice standards.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 22, 2018, 01:53:59
I feel this is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

For one, these cases would seem to meet the Criminal Code of Canada definition of treason; namely someone holding Canadian citizenship taking up arms against Canada or her allies. Yet we've heard no talk of prosecuting these "foreign fighters" or "travelling extremists", as the Government alternately calls them.

Secondly, their atrocities are not compatible with coexisting in civilized society.

Finally, having these individuals in Canada cheapens the citizenship of law-abiding Canadians, cheapens the service of CF members by essentially having the government in the role of fifth columnists, aiding and abetting the enemy, and dishonours the memory of CF members killed fighting extremism overseas. Presumeably an implicit reason for the effort in Afghanistan (in addition to the NATO obligation, and denying Afghanistan as a safe haven to extremists) was to avoid fighting extremists here by doing it  there. Why do that if we just turn around and let the enemy back? Why have Op Impact if we just welcome the enemy back, one of whom (M. Ali) has said that he no longer considers himself Canadian? This sickens me, and I know I can't be the only one.

Yes, there are some legal considerations - I get that - but if Trudeau can drag his feet on TMX and get nothing done, he could ld drag his feet on this too, and they could stay abroad indefinitely.

Time to go have a rage workout.

The Trudeau government just set the benchmark for cases like this, by making Omar Khadr a multi-milionaire, didn't they?


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/trudeau-defends-apology-and-105-million-payment-to-omar-khadr/article35623594/
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on October 22, 2018, 07:41:13
proving crimes overseas is a difficult task according to canadian criminal justice standards.

Am I missing something?  Guy leaves Canada to join ISIS and we are worried about Canadian criminal justice standards.

Most of us on here are willing to put our lives on the line to defend the rights freedoms of Canadians and this mother ****** leaves to join an organization that throws people off buildings because of their sexual preference.   

He made his choice, he can live with it.    frig him.


Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 22, 2018, 08:01:08
As much as I’m not a fan of Trudeau, seems like he handled this one correctly. There is obviously an intelligent gathering benefit from having a former extremist spy for Canada within Canada. And that if Jack starts causing trouble we have the tools to watch him closely.

CAF SOF and Aircrew who served in that theatre might not agree with this opinion.  They worked hard over there to take individuals like this out;  they (ISIS) would not have given any quarter to Coalition/MESF forces who they got their hands on.  They proved this when they burned Jordanian pilot Lt. Muath al-Kaseasbeh alive in a cage and then smashed his charred corpse into the ground with a front-end loader.

Warning:  Extremely Graphic Video:  ISIS Burns Hostage Alive (https://video.foxnews.com/v/4030583977001/?#sp=show-clips):  if you're interested, the cage on fire stuff starts at about 16:16, if your stomach is strong enough to see the horror this Officer suffered at his end.

Adult decisions come with adult consequences.  I feel no sorrow for any of them; neither would you if you knew some of the things that happened over there.  Do you really want this piece of crap and his kind in your backyard, because if they decided to fry you and yours, the Canadian Legal System would be able to do very little to stop them, if they were already in your backyard.  Think about it.  These people do not fear 'a legal system' and 'court ordered restrictions' and other bullshit like that.

RIP Lt. 
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 22, 2018, 08:47:20
CAF SOF and Aircrew who served in that theatre might not agree with this opinion. 

Neither would the Canadian soldier who was murdered 4 years ago today on Parliament Hill.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: reverse_engineer on October 22, 2018, 17:25:25
I'd say almost everyone that conducted ops/collected Int on IMPACT knows how sick and ruthless these monsters are. They conduct genocide, enslave young girls, torture/execute/mutilate prisoners...

We could have done a lot more to kill these assholes while they were over there. Hands were tied.

A lot of the evidence against these assholes will likely never see the light of day. So they will come back, and walk our streets freely - likely with the help of the Canadian taxpayer.

They are guilty of treason full stop. Any politician, lawyer, or bureaucrat that disagrees is just as guilty - IMO. BZ to the other countries hunting these guys down still, and BZ to the Iraqis (flawed as they are) for giving them the "trials" they deserve.

 :2c:




Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Kokanee on October 22, 2018, 17:33:44
The Trudeau government just set the benchmark for cases like this, by making Omar Khadr a multi-milionaire, didn't they? ...

There is an extreme difference in these cases. One was the case of a young boy brought to a warzone against his will by his father, a rifle thrust into his hands. The other are cases of ADULTS knowingly travelling to that part of the world to join ISIS and who carried out brutal and reprehensible WARCRIMES, for which they absolutely should be punished to the full extent of the law.

So to recap, child soldier vs ADULTS. There is a huge difference.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 22, 2018, 17:34:46
There is an extreme difference in these cases. One was the case of a young boy brought to a warzone against his will by his father, a rifle thrust into his hands. The other are cases of ADULTS knowingly travelling to that part of the world to join ISIS and who carried out brutal and reprehensible WARCRIMES, for which they absolutely should be punished to the full extent of the law.

So to recap, child soldier vs ADULTS. There is a huge difference.

To us, there is a difference. To them, not so much.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Journeyman on October 22, 2018, 19:54:04
One was the case of a young boy brought to a warzone against his will by his father, a rifle thrust into his hands.....
While the fatherhood skills clearly weren't up to the level expected of Victoria Park & Eglington's finest citizens in Toronto, the rationale for the payout was the Supreme Court's unanimous ruling (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/omar-khadr-settlement-analysis-aaron-wherry-1.4189472) that found Khadr's human rights were being violated at Guantanamo Bay." 

The father was irrelevant;  Khadr could have been with al-Qaeda, the Shriners, or the Boy Scouts -- the slap was directed solely at the American's extrajudicial processes.

And to stoke the fires... while I disagree with the amount, and that Canada paid it and not the US (which, I suspect, was tied to CSIS involvement), I have absolutely no heartache with the thought process behind it.

     Gitmo is wrong   (as was Abu Ghraib)


And for anyone wringing hands about child soldiers, let's see what comes out of Mali.    :not-again:
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Kokanee on October 22, 2018, 21:52:59
While the fatherhood skills clearly weren't up to the level expected of Victoria Park & Eglington's finest citizens in Toronto, the rationale for the payout was the Supreme Court's unanimous ruling (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/omar-khadr-settlement-analysis-aaron-wherry-1.4189472) that found Khadr's human rights were being violated at Guantanamo Bay." 

The father was irrelevant;  Khadr could have been with al-Qaeda, the Shriners, or the Boy Scouts -- the slap was directed solely at the American's extrajudicial processes.

And to stoke the fires... while I disagree with the amount, and that Canada paid it and not the US (which, I suspect, was tied to CSIS involvement), I have absolutely no heartache with the thought process behind it.

     Gitmo is wrong   (as was Abu Ghraib)


And for anyone wringing hands about child soldiers, let's see what comes out of Mali.    :not-again:

agreed, my post was more about how the OP equated Mr.khadr to a terrorist.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 22, 2018, 23:31:06
agreed, my post was more about how the OP equated Mr.khadr to a terrorist.

He is a terrorist. He admitted it. To be honest, I wasn't fond of the criminal charges thing. Those pers captured on the battlefield could have just been treated as POWs and held until cessation of hostilities. Then we wouldn't have to worry about $10.5M payout, or ever seeing him walk free again.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 22, 2018, 23:47:45
There is an extreme difference in these cases. One was the case of a young boy brought to a warzone against his will by his father, a rifle thrust into his hands. The other are cases of ADULTS knowingly travelling to that part of the world to join ISIS and who carried out brutal and reprehensible WARCRIMES, for which they absolutely should be punished to the full extent of the law.

So to recap, child soldier vs ADULTS. There is a huge difference.

Question for those who understand the LOAC better than I do;  are the atrocities committed by ISIS considered war crimes (in the broad sense) or would they be breeches of international laws and / or crimes against humanity?

Throwing unarmed civilians off buildings, executing women and childen, etc were actions taken during the conflict but not directed towards the 'opposing foce' (Iraq as a nation state, and MESF forces as part of a Coalition). 

Just wondering, from a legal standpoint, which category their actions fall under (with a general understanding that crimes against humanity can fall under the broad definition 'war cime').
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: ModlrMike on October 23, 2018, 00:45:49
Question for those who understand the LOAC better than I do;  are the atrocities committed by ISIS considered war crimes (in the broad sense) or would they be breeches of international laws and / or crimes against humanity?

Throwing unarmed civilians off buildings, executing women and childen, etc were actions taken during the conflict but not directed towards the 'opposing foce' (Iraq as a nation state, and MESF forces as part of a Coalition). 

Just wondering, from a legal standpoint, which category their actions fall under (with a general understanding that crimes against humanity can fall under the broad definition 'war cime').

Not that I understand the LOAC better than you, but I would agree that the above actions constitute crimes against humanity at the very least. Coupled with their other actions such as perfidy, they are broadly classed as war crimes.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Fishbone Jones on October 23, 2018, 02:36:20
Question for those who understand the LOAC better than I do;  are the atrocities committed by ISIS considered war crimes (in the broad sense) or would they be breeches of international laws and / or crimes against humanity?

Throwing unarmed civilians off buildings, executing women and childen, etc were actions taken during the conflict but not directed towards the 'opposing foce' (Iraq as a nation state, and MESF forces as part of a Coalition). 

Just wondering, from a legal standpoint, which category their actions fall under (with a general understanding that crimes against humanity can fall under the broad definition 'war cime').

They've been throwing people off of buildings and killing men, women and children under sharia and religion for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. They've been invading each other just as long. Nobody seemed to worry about crimes against humanity or LOAC then. I see them acting no different now. It's the information age. We just know more about them and still wouldn't care, except we got involved in their gang wars. Now it's affecting us and we want to try use our laws to stop them? They follow a higher (in their minds) calling and they only respect one law and it's not ours. I don't think they are listening and if they are, they don't care. You are not going to deal with this in international courts under any civilized law.
 :2c:
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: FJAG on October 23, 2018, 02:54:14
Question for those who understand the LOAC better than I do;  are the atrocities committed by ISIS considered war crimes (in the broad sense) or would they be breeches of international laws and / or crimes against humanity?

Throwing unarmed civilians off buildings, executing women and childen, etc were actions taken during the conflict but not directed towards the 'opposing foce' (Iraq as a nation state, and MESF forces as part of a Coalition). 

Just wondering, from a legal standpoint, which category their actions fall under (with a general understanding that crimes against humanity can fall under the broad definition 'war cime').

To make a long story short, the acts by IS and it's members--depending on which ones you look at--fall within several categories namely: International Humanitarian Law; International Criminal Law; International Human Rights Law; and/or Customary International Law.

As with much of this law, enforcement is sometimes not easy and sometimes impossible.

For one discussion on the topic, see the Geneva Centre for Security Policy's paper "Does International Law Apply To The Islamic State?" which can be read and/or downloaded from here:

https://www.gcsp.ch/News-Knowledge/Publications/Does-International-Law-Apply-to-the-Islamic-State (https://www.gcsp.ch/News-Knowledge/Publications/Does-International-Law-Apply-to-the-Islamic-State)

Please note that this is but one opinion. There are numerous scholarly and not-so-scholarly opinions/papers on the subject.

Note as well that Part II.1 of the Criminal Code deals with Terrorism.

See here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-11.html#h-25 (https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-11.html#h-25)

The laws here are severely hampered by the need to recover sufficient evidence from a chaotic war zone to lead to a successful prosecution.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 23, 2018, 05:02:50
They've been throwing people off of buildings and killing men, women and children under sharia and religion for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. They've been invading each other just as long. Nobody seemed to worry about crimes against humanity or LOAC then. I see them acting no different now. It's the information age. We just know more about them and still wouldn't care, except we got involved in their gang wars. Now it's affecting us and we want to try use our laws to stop them? They follow a higher (in their minds) calling and they only respect one law and it's not ours. I don't think they are listening and if they are, they don't care. You are not going to deal with this in international courts under any civilized law.
 :2c:

My question was more related to "JIhad Jack" and what his status would be IRT International and Canadian Law.

I do, however, agree with your post.  They (ISIS) came on strong and fast...to the embarrassment of both the governments of Iraq..and the USA.

I still suggest these documentaries for "basic information" to those who don't really *get* where/why ISIS sprang into existence.  Not suggesting they're complete and cover all aspects...

How ISIS Came To Be (https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/how-isis-came-to-be-four-docs-to-watch/?utm_source=TWITTER&utm_medium=social&utm_term=20170710&utm_content=973609638&linkId=39612861)

Gang wars...I don't like that analogy, personally, but that is because I spent a somewhat significant amount of time in that theatre "watching/reporting".  Some nights...your memory and conscience aren't your best friend.   :2c:
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 23, 2018, 05:04:16
To make a long story short, the acts by IS and it's members--depending on which ones you look at--fall within several categories namely: International Humanitarian Law; International Criminal Law; International Human Rights Law; and/or Customary International Law.

As with much of this law, enforcement is sometimes not easy and sometimes impossible.

For one discussion on the topic, see the Geneva Centre for Security Policy's paper "Does International Law Apply To The Islamic State?" which can be read and/or downloaded from here:

https://www.gcsp.ch/News-Knowledge/Publications/Does-International-Law-Apply-to-the-Islamic-State (https://www.gcsp.ch/News-Knowledge/Publications/Does-International-Law-Apply-to-the-Islamic-State)

Please note that this is but one opinion. There are numerous scholarly and not-so-scholarly opinions/papers on the subject.

Note as well that Part II.1 of the Criminal Code deals with Terrorism.

See here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-11.html#h-25 (https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-11.html#h-25)

The laws here are severely hampered by the need to recover sufficient evidence from a chaotic war zone to lead to a successful prosecution.

 :cheers:

Thanks for that!
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: PPCLI Guy on October 23, 2018, 11:47:06
They've been throwing people off of buildings and killing men, women and children under sharia and religion for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. They've been invading each other just as long. Nobody seemed to worry about crimes against humanity or LOAC then. I see them acting no different now. It's the information age. We just know more about them and still wouldn't care, except we got involved in their gang wars. Now it's affecting us and we want to try use our laws to stop them? They follow a higher (in their minds) calling and they only respect one law and it's not ours. I don't think they are listening and if they are, they don't care. You are not going to deal with this in international courts under any civilized law.
 :2c:

I tend to agree with you...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 23, 2018, 12:19:35

     Abu Ghraib)




The "Center of Excellence" for the insurgency.  A follow-on royal frig-up of the sweep-nets...and (one of several major) contributing factors/events that lead to ISIS "rising up".
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 23, 2018, 12:39:01
The "Center of Excellence" for the insurgency.  A follow-on royal frig-up of the sweep-nets...and (one of several major) contributing factors/events that lead to ISIS "rising up".

When it comes to counter-insurgency, all Armies seem to need to learn the hard way, sadly, like Internment in NI in the 1970s, which resulted in a huge set of unintended consequences:

'Historians generally view the period of internment as inflaming sectarian tensions in Northern Ireland, while failing in its goal of arresting key members of the IRA. Many of the people arrested had no links whatsoever with the IRA, but their names appeared on the list of those to be arrested through bungling and incompetence. The list's lack of reliability and the arrests that followed, complemented by reports of internees being abused far in excess of the usual state violence, led to more nationalists identifying with the IRA and losing hope in non-violent methods. After Operation Demetrius, recruits came forward in huge numbers to join the Provisional and Official wings of the IRA. Internment also led to a sharp increase in violence. In the eight months before the operation, there were 34 conflict-related deaths in Northern Ireland. In the four months following it, 140 were killed.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Demetrius

Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Fishbone Jones on October 23, 2018, 18:21:14
My question was more related to "JIhad Jack" and what his status would be IRT International and Canadian Law.

I do, however, agree with your post.  They (ISIS) came on strong and fast...to the embarrassment of both the governments of Iraq..and the USA.

I still suggest these documentaries for "basic information" to those who don't really *get* where/why ISIS sprang into existence.  Not suggesting they're complete and cover all aspects...

How ISIS Came To Be (https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/how-isis-came-to-be-four-docs-to-watch/?utm_source=TWITTER&utm_medium=social&utm_term=20170710&utm_content=973609638&linkId=39612861)

Gang wars...I don't like that analogy, personally, but that is because I spent a somewhat significant amount of time in that theatre "watching/reporting".  Some nights...your memory and conscience aren't your best friend.   :2c:

Many of us have been in much closer contact with them than watching/reporting. Matter of perspective I guess, not a pissing contest.  :salute:
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brihard on October 23, 2018, 19:12:09
The laws here are severely hampered by the need to recover sufficient evidence from a chaotic war zone to lead to a successful prosecution.

 :cheers:

Yup, this. There is definitely no lack of thirst to investigate or prosecute this at any level, whether within the investigative teams, the police/intelligence services as a whole, the crown prosecutors' offices, or within the government / cabinet / PMO. Frnakly I'm sure our government would love nothing better right now than a couple of slam dunk prosecutions of Daesh returnees, because they quite rightly fear the impact this issue will have on the election.

We are, in the end, a nation ruled by law, however. I as a police officer am constrained in my job by our system of laws and our Charter of Rights and Freedoms - and quite rightly so! It's correct and appropriate than in a free society I, as an agent of the state possessed of considerable coercive powers, should have to justify my actions. If I want to investigate someone - just like any of you - who may be driving drunk, or accused of assault, dealing drugs, or making threats or committing a fraud or what have you - there are things that might make my job potentially easier but that the law doesn't allow me to do because they would trample your rights. I cannot make you confess to a crime, I generally can't force my way into your home and arbitrarily look for evidence, I can't just take your phone off you and have it searched for evidence without a warrant granted by a judge based on my grounds outlining a reasonable suspicion of an offense. I cannot arbitrarily listen in on your phone calls or seize and analyze your computer. We have mechanisms to do all these things but we have the judiciary as an oversight. I cannot burn certain investigative techniques in court proceedings. I cannot disclose the identity of confidential informants whose lives may be at risk from retribution by criminals. And these are all extraordinary simplistic comparisons in the realm of straight criminal investigations. Add international intelligence gathering and sharing arrangements into the picture, and holy hell does it get tough to use information. There is a whole sector within our national security infrastructure that wrestles with taking security intelligence (e.g., from CSIS, CSE, or foreign allied agencies) and handing off clean tidbits to the RCMP to say 'we can't tell you why, but look at this guy' and to try to build prosecutable criminal cases from there.

On the face of it it's easy to say 'Well OK, but drunk driver versus ISIS terrorist Come on, be reasonable". Yup. We can always pick two examples far removed from each other for comparison. Where it gets much harder is trying to discern the truth when someone purportedly travels overseas to a contested area to visit family, or to engage in humanitarian work, or what have you, and then on the flip side is accused of acts of terrorism. Are they giving money to Daesh, or to a legitimate charity? Might they be blissfully unaware of the difference? Where do we draw the line between combatants that are on the 'good guy' side and those that are not in such a conflict?

All that said- I'm by no means coming to the defense of these Daeshbags. I think among the first steps in effective solutions include better joint targeting and intelligence sharing, precision munitions, and where applicable sound application of the principles of marksmanship. We don't need to worry about prosecuting those dead as combatants on the battlefield. But one way or another we have to face the facts that some will return, and that the waters in many cases will be extremely muddied. It's very easy indeed to say all these people should be investigated, charged, convicted, and thrown in jail. I'm absolutely with everyone else on that part of the principle of this thing, for sure. But the rule of law matters, it's what keeps us the good guys and protects all of you from the dumb crap I could otherwise do in the course of efforts to enforce the law, and whether we like it or not those same protections do not end at some arbitrary line in the sand. I wish things were easier than this, but they're not.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: reverse_engineer on October 23, 2018, 19:26:08
I spent a somewhat significant amount of time in that theatre "watching/reporting".  Some nights...your memory and conscience aren't your best friend.   :2c:

 :salute:








Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: reverse_engineer on October 23, 2018, 19:48:07
Good post Brihard. You are correct (unfortunately) in so many ways, but it also shows why as a country we are weak and vulnerable.

We did have a choice to do more to kill these guys over there. Now we will suffer.

As for Jihadi Jack...you gotta love the article where it shows a picture of him doing the ISIS salute, and the CBC caption mentions his Dad saying he went there to help refugees:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-isis-jihadi-jack-1.4868495 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-isis-jihadi-jack-1.4868495)

WHAT A JOKE!

I threw my bling from IMPACT into a bin somewhere. I've had to resist doing worse. Disgusted I wasted some of the best years of my life on it.

 :not-again:





Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: YZT580 on October 23, 2018, 23:25:44
If they had left Harper's law alone, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Join a terrorist group, don't bother trying to come back because you are no longer a citizen.  Nothing wrong with that.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: dapaterson on October 23, 2018, 23:33:32
If they had left Harper's law alone, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Join a terrorist group, don't bother trying to come back because you are no longer a citizen.  Nothing wrong with that.

Except that was not the law.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 24, 2018, 00:48:03
We should be reaching out to him with an AMAX that's 1/2 inch in diameter...

Damn rights. 3540 or bust.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 24, 2018, 04:29:59

I totally believe our law enforcement people are onboard and don't want these POS in our country but the vibes our government is putting out just doesn't reflect that. Quite the opposite. They seem more about welcoming these wayward and lost souls in the name of diversity and inclusion.

Mass graves are still being discovered, ISIS is still bombing people (6dead 40 injured yesterday), ISIS is still kidnapping and murdering people.  Even if we don't have video evidence of someone committing a crime let's not take the risk and give people who even just "joined ISIS" a refuge in our country. I'm comfortable and happy to keep them out and if we're forced to allow them to come here then I think them being caught with Isis or in the vicinity of is enough grounds to nail them with terrorism charges.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 24, 2018, 13:05:09
Except that was not the law.

Exactly. If we don't like this stuff happening, then we need to change our laws.

However, I've seen enough terrorists receive social services benefits from the country that is fighting against them to know that the 'long game' sometimes includes doing what seems basically schizo at the time.

Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: reverse_engineer on October 24, 2018, 14:17:46
I'm willing to bet if any vigilante justice happens to one of these assclowns that the gov would direct more resources to convicting vigilantes than they spent trying to convict the terrorists.

Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: MarkOttawa on October 24, 2018, 14:20:22
Useful article:

Quote
Canada’s Foreign Fighter Problem is No Surprise
https://www.lawfareblog.com/canadas-foreign-fighter-problem-no-surprise

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: ontheedge on October 25, 2018, 00:19:59
My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brihard on October 25, 2018, 00:24:16
My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.

Infantry here. What point is it that you’re making?
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: garb811 on October 25, 2018, 00:30:23
My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.
Ontheedge:  I get it.  You're new and have a million questions and are full of what we refer to as piss and vinegar.  But at this point I'm going to advise you to take a few steps back and stop making so many posts based on assumptions.  You really aren't doing yourself a lot of favours right now and you are going to learn a lot more by letting some of these threads play out naturally than you will by what you are doing.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: BeyondTheNow on October 25, 2018, 00:30:40
My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.

I’d caution you, as you’re an individual with no experience as a CAF member, to be more diplomatic and less judgemental with your thoughts towards how you perceive things are being done in certain areas. This was a polite suggestion, as some of your posts can be interpreted negatively.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 25, 2018, 00:38:03
My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.

What’s your point?

Maybe sometimes tough people dispense controlled armed violence on those our government has deemed enemies. Got a problem with that?
Infantry for over 35 years here.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: ontheedge on October 25, 2018, 01:23:00
I was referring mostly to the AMAX comment and the support it got.  I presume it was in jest as was my comment.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: BeyondTheNow on October 25, 2018, 01:26:16
Okay folks, let’s move on with the discussion. The user was inadvertently made aware of his tone by two DS posting the same advisement at the same time, plus he’s had the chance to now view how his comments were received. Good learning opportunity, now time to get back on track.

Staff
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 25, 2018, 01:35:47
Specifically with regard to the topic of returning ISIS fighter and supporters returning to Canada, the more efficiently the infantry and others are permitted to do their job in the battle space, the less fighting in the courtrooms lawyers will have to do.

IF the target is legit and the *targeting process is followed (I won't speak to 'efficiency and timeliness' of that process sometimes  ::)), I don't see a problem.  Unfortunately, this Jihad Jack never ended up in someone's crosshairs so here we are debating his disposition and of those like him.

*OnTheEdge,  you'll hopefully be pleasantly surprised that Legal Officers are involved in the targeting/engagement "stuff" was well with advising on ROEs, and advising Commanders on strike/no-strike decisions. 
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 25, 2018, 10:31:04
I was referring mostly to the AMAX comment and the support it got.  I presume it was in jest as was my comment.

Oh yes in jest. This a??clown jihadi might be responsible for the deaths of a number of innocent people.
By all means let’s bring the poor misunderstood urchin to Canada to cure him of his bad practices.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 27, 2018, 01:34:23
Credit where it's due, a good if surprising move by the government.

Sadly the story highlights how ridiculously slow our justice system can be. Looks like it will still be a while before he's deported.

Quote
A B.C. man whose Facebook posts promoted ISIS and praised lone wolf terrorist attacks has been ordered deported from Canada.

The Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada has ruled that Othman Hamdan of Fort St. John is a "danger to the security of Canada" and is therefore inadmissible.

"While Mr. Hamdan has no history of violence, he has praised lone wolf attacks, actively promoted the Islamic State, disseminated instructions on how to commit attacks and seems fascinated with the extreme violence of the Islamic State demonstrated by possessing Islamic State videos depicting gruesome murders," IRB member Marc Tessler wrote in an Oct. 18 decision.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/man-who-praised-isis-on-social-media-ordered-deported-from-canada-1.4880418?fbclid=IwAR0Cx28TQLM9njcrM3c8FZJ-XmjRdWlGsBp_XWGz5FW3xzUQ75Q_6WZhOqE
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: kratz on October 27, 2018, 01:44:57
Thank you Jarnhamar.

"It's easy to find fault,
It's more challenging to find agreement."
- Unknown

Our system can work.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on February 28, 2019, 17:30:50
Remember Pamir Hakimzadah mentioned here (https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,116553.msg1509863.html#msg1509863)?

This from Global via Twitter ...
Quote
Pamir Hakimzadah was sentenced Thursday to 6 months for trying to join ISIS, in addition to the time he has spent in custody since his June 2016 arrest (https://twitter.com/StewGlobal/status/1101210531145252865) ... He will be eligible for parole in 3 months. Upon release he must undergo religious counselling and stay away from terror supporters and materials (https://twitter.com/StewGlobal/status/1101210783004815360) ... Because he pleaded guilty, little was publicly aired about the case, but Global News has obtained a summary of the investigation, and it raises questions (https://twitter.com/StewGlobal/status/1101211383167741952). The story (https://globalnews.ca/news/5008031/inside-story-investigation-toronto-isis/): ... How does a terrorism offence with a 10-year maximum become 3 months? (https://twitter.com/StewGlobal/status/1101227675480453120) Sentenced imposed: 4 yrs, 1 mos. Pretrial custody: 792 days x 1.5=3 years, 3 months credit. Days jail was on lockdown: 250=four months credit. Remaining sentence=6 months x .5 parole eligibility Total: 3 mos. ... But the judge did impose 3 years probation with several conditions (https://twitter.com/StewGlobal/status/1101232793521147904): - religious counseling, - psychotherapy, - interview w/probation officer every 6 months on effects of de-radicalization, - no passport, weapons, terror literature etc...

As for the other person mentioned in the above-linked post, Rehab Dughmosh, she got 7 years earlier this month for trying to head to ISIS country and for an attack in a Scarborough Canadian Tire (http://www.rcinet.ca/en/2019/02/14/canadian-tire-attacker-sentenced-to-7-years-in-prison/).
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on February 28, 2019, 20:43:54
A little more (https://www.ppsc-sppc.gc.ca/eng/nws-nvs/2019/28_02_19.html) from the Public Prosecution Service of Canada ...
Quote
Today in the Ontario Superior Court, Pamir Hakimzadah was sentenced to six months in jail in addition to three years and seven months credit for the time he has already spent in custody after pleading guilty earlier this month to leaving Canada to participate in the activity of a terrorist group, contrary to section 83.181 of the Criminal Code.He also receivedthree years of probation requiring adherence to a deradicalization program.

On October 22, 2014, Mr. Hakimzadah left Canada and travelled to Istanbul, Turkey with the intention of entering Syria to join ISIS. He was detained by Turkish officials before he could enter Syria and was deported back to Canada. He was subsequently charged with the offence following an RCMP investigation.

According to the agreed statement of facts, Mr. Hakimzadah had exhibited increasingly radical Islamic beliefs prior to his departure, speaking in favour of, or in defence of ISIS. He viewed online ISIS videos and posts, as well as a website on how to get into Syria ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on March 17, 2019, 11:14:52
Another couple of Canadian dual citizens identified as "guests" of Kurdish forces in Syria (https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2019/03/syria-kurdish-region-isis-prison-sdf.html) ...
Quote
... Safraz Ali, a 39-year-old dual Trinidadian and Canadian citizen, says he was recruited by fellow Trinidadians and joined the Islamic State in 2015 “to help the Syrian people.” He explained, “I didn’t seek out [IS execution] videos. I was against all of that. They sent me to Iraq to fight. I refused and fled to Syria on a bus. I had trauma training. I would go out after coalition bombings and pick up wounded children and take them to the hospital.” He ended up in Al Bab, where “people were so kind they would give you the shirts off their backs.” After Turkish troops captured the town in 2016 he moved on to Raqqa. “People were much harsher, crueler there.”

Ali is rail thin. His eyes are glazed. He seems weak. “I have terminal Crohn’s disease,” he said. “They don’t have proper medicine here. I have rectal bleeding, dizzy spells and blurry vision.” He clutches an inhaler in his hand. “Asthma,” he explains. He says he is scared but far more concerned for his wife. It emerges that he is married to Kimberley Gwen Polman, 46, a dual US and Canadian citizen he met in Raqqa who was profiled by the New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/19/us/islamic-state-american-women.html).

They were married in 2016 and made plans to flee together soon after. They were in touch with Polman’s family and a Canadian official who handled such cases, he claimed. The pair was ratted out by spies and briefly imprisoned in Raqqa and continued to plot their escape once they were freed. “We led the life of fugitives,” he said, describing a harrowing odyssey that took the couple from Raqqa to Mayadeen and then Hajin. They finally turned themselves over to SDF forces a little over a month ago. “We desperately wanted to have children. Kimberley had five miscarriages,” he said. “I spend all my time thinking about my wife.”

I feel sorry for him and offer reasons he might have joined the Islamic State. His father, a Christian, and his mother, a Muslim, were divorced. Had he had a rough childhood? His Gandhi-like demeanor evaporates. “You are psychologically profiling me,” he said with a cold, hard look. It's time to end the conversation. The minder handcuffs Ali and leads him away.

I'll also slowly bring in other posts/threads here to offer up a "one-stop window" of open-source info on Canadians playing on the ISIS team.  I'll leave the threads dealing with specific, individual court proceedings stand alone for now.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Cloud Cover on March 17, 2019, 16:55:44
Credit where it's due, a good if surprising move by the government.

Sadly the story highlights how ridiculously slow our justice system can be. Looks like it will still be a while before he's deported.
 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/man-who-praised-isis-on-social-media-ordered-deported-from-canada-1.4880418?fbclid=IwAR0Cx28TQLM9njcrM3c8FZJ-XmjRdWlGsBp_XWGz5FW3xzUQ75Q_6WZhOqE

His appeal ended up in his favour so far despite this strong statement by the Federal Court Judge:
“[1]  Mr. Hamdan is an unmitigated liar. One must wonder if he has uttered one truthful word since he came to Canada in 2002. His refugee claim was accepted in 2004. The basis thereof was that he had converted to Christianity from Islam and faced a serious risk of persecution should he be returned to Jordan.” 

...

“[17]  Although the evidence in this case may be somewhat scanty, there is some evidence to suggest that a misrepresentation had indeed taken place. In context, scanty evidence can support an inference to find as a fact that an event actually occurred (Whirlpool Inc. v Camco Inc., 2000 SCC 67 (CanLII), [2000] 2 SCR 1067. The only evidence from Mr. Hamdan was his denial. The record clearly shows that his word is not to be trusted so that the presumption he is telling the truth is rebutted (Maldonado v. Canada (M.E.I.), [1980] 2 FC 302 (C.A.)).
[18]  For these reasons, judicial review is allowed and the matter is referred back to the IRB for redetermination before a new member, both with respect to religion and criminality.”

His misrepresentation: he may be a drug dealer at one time, and since Hamas frowns on wealth created by illegal acts not controlled by them, his life might be at risk in Jordan.


   Canada (Citizenship and Immigration) v. Hamdan, 2018 FC 1177 (CanLII), <http://canlii.ca/t/hw8gh (https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/fct/doc/2018/2018fc1177/2018fc1177.html)>, retrieved on 2019-03-17

- mod edit to make link work -
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on April 05, 2019, 09:27:25
First, Russia flies home children (and some women) from IRQ after being part of Daesh/ISIS (https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/02/01/putin-shows-rare-soft-spot-to-rescue-russias-isis-children-a64363) ...
Quote
Zalina Gabibulayeva has had five children, four husbands and two jail sentences. All her spouses were Islamist militants who are either dead or in prison, the last two in Syria, where she was among hundreds of women stranded by the war before officials brought her back to Russia.

“I thank God every day that we are here,” Gabibulayeva, 37, said by phone from Grozny, the capital of Russia’s mostly Muslim republic of Chechnya, where she and her children receive about 40,000 rubles ($610) per month in state welfare payments.

While President Vladimir Putin is renowned for his ruthless approach to terrorists — once vowing to “waste them in the outhouse” — Russia has been more willing than many Western nations to help women and children linked with Islamic State fighters to return home from the Middle East. He’s explained the motivation by saying children didn’t choose to go to the conflict zone “and we have no right to leave them there.”

Nearly 100 family members of jihadists in Syria and Iraq were repatriated in late 2017 before Russia’s intelligence service raised security concerns in a country that’s repeatedly been the target of terrorist attacks. Russia’s experience illustrates challenges facing the U.S. and Europe as they decide how to deal with citizens captured in Syria and Iraq who were part of Islamic State ...
More recent lifts have been kids, but no moms if they're being held by IRQ (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/02/russia-27-children-isil-members-arrive-iraq-190210193040293.html).

Now, Australia appears to be trying this, too (https://www.citynews1130.com/2019/04/04/australia-works-to-repatriate-terrorists-3-children/) ...
Quote
Australia’s prime minister says his government is working with international aid workers to repatriate three orphaned Australian children of a convicted terrorist from a Syrian refugee camp.

Prime Minister Scott Morrison said Australia would only help the children of extremists — not adults — return from the war zones of Syria and Iraq.

Australian Broadcasting Corp. reported the three survivors of former Islamic State group fighter Khaled Sharrouf’s five children contacted their Sydney grandmother Karen Nettleton last month.

The grandmother travelled to a Syrian refugee camp where the grandchildren aged 17, 16 and 8 have been since they fled the Islamic State group ...

Just throwing this up to show how some countries are handling this one.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on April 09, 2019, 20:54:15
A bit of data culling (https://globalnews.ca/news/5117211/deadly-export-canadian-terrorists/) ....
Quote
A suicide bomber from Calgary strikes near Baghdad. A Windsor man masterminds the torture and killing of foreigners at a Dhaka bakery. Two London, Ont., gunmen take hostages at a gas plant in the Algerian desert.

Canadian terrorists have killed and injured more than 300 in other countries since 2012, according to figures compiled by Global News that document the victims of so-called extremist travellers.

Fatal attacks in Algeria, Bangladesh, Bulgaria, Iraq, Russia, Somalia and Syria were attributed to Canadians during that time. An attack in Michigan resulted in no deaths but seriously injured a police officer.

Citizens of 19 countries were killed in attacks involving Canadian perpetrators, including locals and British, Colombian, French, Indian, Israeli, Italian, Filipino, Japanese, Malaysian, Norwegian, Romanian and U.S. nationals.

The majority of killings were claimed by the so-called Islamic State, while others were the work of Al Qaeda affiliates and Hezbollah, but attacks by Al Qaeda-aligned groups were more deadly ...
More @ link
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: reverse_engineer on April 09, 2019, 21:14:58
Maybe if we stopped importing so many terrorists, they wouldn't breed here and become exports? Other countries send SOF in the early morning hours to kill their own citizens that have betrayed them. We take ours back, apologize for allowing them to be radicalized, and then ask them how much money and which of our daughters they would like...

 :2c:
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on May 08, 2019, 08:31:16
What Sweden's doing (http://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/dba9a72e-f08f-439d-bcfe-dc396c5815b8) ...
Quote
Local authorities in northeastern Syria on Tuesday handed over seven children belonging to members of the so-called Islamic State to a Swedish delegation.

The transfer was made at the Faysh Khabur border crossing, also known as the “Semalka” crossing, which connects Syria’s northeast with the Kurdistan Region.

The Swedish delegation met with the foreign relations department in northern and eastern Syria to receive seven children of Swedish nationality whose parents were killed in Syria fighting for the Islamic State, local Kurdish media reported.

The delegation was received by the Deputy Head of the Department of Foreign Relations in North and East Syria, Sana Deham, and the Director of the Women’s Body for North and East Syria, Rokan Mullah Ibrahim.

After the children were handed over, an extradition contract was signed. The Swedish delegation then returned to the Kurdistan Region with the children where they are expected to repatriate them to Sweden ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on May 08, 2019, 21:36:32
France's approach (https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1124680/france-news-isis-islamic-state-children) ...
Quote
The French government has explicitly refused to bring home jihadists and their wives, but has pledged to bring back their children on a “case-by-case” basis.

“It’s very likely,” Mrs Parly told the French news channel BFMTV and RMC radio.

“We are doing everything within our power to repatriate those who have been identified as orphans.”

Asked why the government was not bringing home all children, not only those who had lost their jihadi parents, she said: “When there are parents, they still have rights over their children. And regarding families being held in camps run by the Syrian Democratic Forces, the Kurds have decided to respect this right.” ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on May 29, 2019, 23:08:06
Turkey's latest (http://www.rudaw.net/english/middleeast/iraq/290520192) ....
Quote
Iraq has handed over 188 Turkish children of suspected Islamic State (ISIS) members to Turkey after Ankara said it would help the children return home, judicial officials announced Wednesday.

The handover took place at Baghdad airport in the presence of representatives from Iraq’s Foreign Ministry, the Turkish Embassy in Baghdad, and the United Nation children’s fund UNICEF.

An official told Reuters the handover took place on Wednesday.

“The Central Investigations Court responsible for terror cases and foreign convicts handed the Turkish side 188 children the terrorist Daesh left in Iraq,” said Abdulstar Bayrakdar, spokesperson for Iraq’s High Judicial Council, using the Arabic acronym for ISIS ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on May 30, 2019, 21:53:14
Some of the latest (https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/lawyer-calls-for-canada-to-bring-isis-bride-and-her-newborn-son-home-1.4441654) ...
Quote
A so-called Canadian “ISIS bride” who is stuck in a Syrian refugee camp with her newborn baby has been given no indication of coming home, despite the increasingly dangerous living conditions her family is facing.

Aimee, whose last name CTV News has previously agreed not to reveal, gave birth to her third son Mohammed last week while living among the hundreds of fellow widows of former ISIS fighters in a special section of the al-Hawl refugee camp in eastern Syria.

Aimee travelled to Syria from Alberta four years ago with her Canadian husband who later died in fighting for ISIS. She later married another fighter, but he was killed as well. Mohammed is her second husband’s son.

CTV News’ Paul Workman profiled Aimee’s story in February as she pleaded to come home, but since then there has been little action on the part of the Canadian government, while the conditions at the camp have worsened ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on May 30, 2019, 22:48:37
Quote
but since then there has been little action on the part of the Canadian government, while the conditions at the camp have worsened ...

Absolutely no ****s given here.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brihard on May 31, 2019, 02:13:50
Absolutely no ****s given here.

Yup. If they're citizens, the government has to let them in at the border. It doesn't need to send them a plane or buy them a ticket.

That said- whether we like it or not, we will continue to grapple with this for years to come. There will be returnees who make it back that we don't have grounds to criminally charge and who, by virtue of being born in Canada or having acquired citizenship honestly and before any radicalization took place, cannot have citizenships revoked nor be removed from the country

Out of those, a portion will be hardcore and probably irredeemable. But some are going to be young fools who really, really screwed up, had their eyes opened, and now realize it. Not unlike those who 'demobilize' from gang life, really. There has to be a plan in place to deal with them; a plan that complies with our laws. I do not envy those who have to craft such policy.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Colin P on May 31, 2019, 12:08:36
I don't suppose setting up a Trans-Ontario railway project where they can build the railway by hand from Attawapiskat to Lake Winnipeg and live in Gulags Umm camps is doable?  8)
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on June 03, 2019, 21:47:06
The latest stats from an academic tracking this stuff (source (https://twitter.com/AmarAmarasingam/status/1135605331059494912)) ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brihard on June 03, 2019, 22:53:38
I think the government realizes that, even if they were so inclined, repatriation just before an already difficult election would be politically challenging.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: tomahawk6 on June 04, 2019, 19:40:28
Read an article todat about a number of captured French fighters have been sentenced to hang by the Iraqi courts. France doesn't want them back and Iraq doesn't want them either , so ……

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/iraq-court-sentences-two-french-men-to-death-for-being-isis-fighters-2046783


Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on June 05, 2019, 21:29:51
Let's see how these folks fare (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/isis-women-kids-sent-back-us-from-syria-kurdish-officials-say-today-2019-06-05/) ...
Quote
A Kurdish official in northern Syria said Wednesday that local authorities there had transferred eight American women and children captured with other Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) suspects back to the U.S.

Abdulkarim Omar, a spokesman for the U.S.-allied regional Kurdish leadership in north and east Syria, said the group included two women and six children. He said they were returned at the request of the U.S. government and based on their own desire to return "without any pressure or coercion."

(...)

"Several U.S. citizens, including young children, have been safely recovered from Syria and we are assisting them with repatriation to the United States," a U.S. State Department official told CBS News on Wednesday. The official added that the safety of U.S. citizens was the Department's "highest priority," and that it examined every claim of U.S. citizenship by a person in a conflict zone "on a case-by-case basis."

The official said the U.S. government would "continue to repatriate and, when appropriate, prosecute its citizens" brought home from war zones.

The State Department was aware of reports of a "small number of U.S. citizens present in camps in northeast Syria," the official said, noting the difficulty of handling such cases due to the lack of U.S. consular services in the country.

It is the second such repatriation from Syria. Earlier this year, an American woman and four children were returned to the U.S. ...
More @ link
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brihard on June 06, 2019, 13:08:08
https://globalnews.ca/news/5346883/crimes-against-humanity-charges-canadians-syria/

Quote from: Global News
RCMP explores crimes against humanity charges for Canadian ISIS members
 By Stewart Bell
National Online Journalist, Investigative
Global News


The RCMP is looking into whether war crimes laws can be used to prosecute Canadians detained in Syria over their alleged involvement in the so-called Islamic State, Global News has learned.

National security investigators are exploring not only whether terrorism charges are warranted, but also whether the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act could apply, officials said.


While war crimes-related prosecutions are extremely rare in Canada, with 32 Canadians detained in Syria by U.S.-backed forces following the collapse of ISIS, the possibility of charges is being examined.

The investigations are part of the RCMP’s preparations for the possible return to Canada of captured ISIS members.

READ MORE: ‘We need to get ready’: RCMP planning for return of Canadian ISIS members

Asked about the issue Thursday, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said he had confidence in the RCMP but added that one of the challenges was “making the translation from intelligence gathering activities to presenting evidence of crimes.”

“That is something that the RCMP, our intelligence agencies and indeed agencies around the world are struggling with and working on very hard,” he said from Juno Beach.

None of the Canadians held in Syria have been charged under Canada’s anti-terrorism laws, which make it illegal to knowingly participate in the activity of a terrorist group. The maximum sentence is 10 years.

By contrast, war crimes-related laws outlaw participation in genocide, crimes against humanity or war crimes committed anywhere in the world. A conviction carries a possible life sentence.

Crimes against humanity include murder, enslavement, imprisonment, torture, sexual violence, persecution “or any other inhumane act” against a civilian population or identifiable group.

ISIS members openly engaged in all those crimes as they imposed their version of Islamic law on the local populations of Syria and northern Iraq, particularly against minority Yazidis.

But a national security law expert said prosecuting war crimes and crimes against humanity is demanding and it might be simpler to charge the Canadians under anti-terrorism laws.

Leah West said prosecutors would have to prove not only the culpability of the accused but also the context of the offence, demonstrating that it was done as part of a crime against humanity.

“So, I don’t see why you would go to that extent to prove these crimes, rather than charging the crime we have on the books to deal with exactly what they’ve done, which is go overseas to support a terrorist group.”

A former Department of Justice lawyer and now a doctoral candidate at the University of Toronto Faculty of Law, West said crimes against humanity laws might apply to some of the activities of the Canadians.

But even if they went to Syria to marry ISIS fighters and bear children for the so-called caliphate, that could still warrant a terrorism charge, she said.

“Prosecutors tend to want to walk the easiest path to proving criminal liability. Charging Canadians who supported ISIS overseas under the War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity Act rather than terrorism offences under the Criminal Code isn’t the easier path.”

Six Canadian men, 9 women and 17 children are among the hundreds of foreigners held in camps and makeshift prisons in northeast Syria after being taken into custody during the fall of ISIS.

The U.S. has been encouraging countries to repatriate and prosecute their citizens. The Liberal government has said it can’t because it would be too dangerous to take them out through Iraq or Turkey.

The RCMP, however, has begun working on the assumption that the Canadians will eventually come back and has been studying possible travel routes for their return as well as building criminal cases against them.

War crimes laws have already been used in Germany, where a woman who joined ISIS was charged with crimes against humanity over the death of a five-year-old Yazidi slave she and her husband bought in Mosul.

Canada has a mixed record with such prosecutions.

In 2009, a Quebec court convicted Désiré Munyaneza of seven counts of war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide over atrocities in Rwanda in 1994. He was sentenced to life.

Jacques Mungwarere, a refugee claimant arrested in Windsor in 2009, was also prosecuted for genocide for his alleged role in Rwanda but an Ontario judge found him not guilty in 2013.

The only known case in which Canada has used war crimes law in relation to ISIS involved a Lebanese mechanic who repaired vehicles for ISIS and who is now living in British Columbia.

Rather than putting him on trial, Canadian authorities intervened in his refugee case and are attempting to deport him. He was found complicit in crimes against humanity but is appealing.

On Monday, the Swedish government hosted a meeting of officials from Germany, France, the United Kingdom, and other European governments to discuss establishing a tribunal to prosecute ISIS members.

“Administering justice in the region, by means of a tribunal or some other legal mechanism, could complement national legal proceedings and contribute to accountability for the crimes committed during the conflict in Syria and Iraq,” Sweden said in a statement.

In the latest CTC Sentinel, a publication of the Combating Terrorism Centre at West Point, Brian Michael Jenkins argued that “bluster and muddle” was not a viable way of dealing with the ISIS detainees.

“This is not an option, but policy by default,” the veteran terrorism scholar wrote. “It describes the current situation. Warnings and threats prompt concern, but international co-ordination remains too complicated.”

I had surmised that in the background this was probably quietly underway, but it's an interesting update on the 'what the hell are we gonna do with these guys?'

The War Crimes Program is interesting- multi agency, multi disciplinary. You've got the RCMP, CBSA, Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship Canada, and Department of Justice all working hand in hand on these. Allegations are evaluated in a joint manner, and a determination made as to what 'remedy' (or remedies) is most applicable. Criminal prosecutions are rare for all the same challenges I've elaborated on previously regarding terrorism prosecutions, but they've got a pretty decent track record of building up solid cases leading to refusal of refugee/asylum status, revocation of such status, revocation of citizenship, and removal from Canada of those deemed inadmissible. Part of the strategy is fighting 'impunity' and denying Canada as a safe haven for those complicit.

Unfortunately it still doesn't crack the tough nut of successfully prosecuting thsoe who are citizens and who didn't obtain their citizenship through fraud or deception... But it's something.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on June 08, 2019, 19:20:22
Another one (https://globalnews.ca/news/5365018/canadian-isis-infiltrate-u-s/), this time with some (at least alleged) specifics ...
Quote
A Canadian detained in Syria has alleged that ISIS asked him to infiltrate the United States through its southern border to attack financial targets, according to researchers.

Speaking to the International Center for the Study of Violent Extremism, Abu Henricki al Canadi said he was instructed to travel to Puerto Rico, take a boat to Mexico and cross into the U.S.

“What they wanted to do, basically, is they wanted to do financial attacks. Financial attacks to cripple the economy,” he said in the May 12 interview conducted at a prison in northeast Syria.

The 39-year-old said he was not told the full details but the operation was masterminded by a New Jersey man and he assumed it was a bombing mission that would strike financial targets in the New York area.

“I haven’t told anyone this information,” he said.

Abu Henricki is a dual citizen of Canada and Trinidad. He is married to a British Columbia woman. Both were captured earlier this year by the U.S.-backed Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) during the collapse of ISIS.

He claimed the ISIS intelligence wing approached him about the plot in 2016 “because I’m from that area” but he declined to take part, prompting him to be imprisoned in Manbij, Syria until 2017.

“I refused to do it. That is why also I’m put into prison and been tortured,” he said, adding he had been beaten, suspended, starved and waterboarded by ISIS during his detention.

Fifteen Canadian adults are being detained by Kurdish-led forces. Another 17 Canadian children are also being held. To date, none have been charged by Canadian authorities ...
And if you don't believe #BoughtMedia, there's this (https://www.icsve.org/isis-fighter-claims-attack-plot-via-mexico-underscoring-border-vulnerability/) from the Int'l Ctr for the Study of Violent Extremism (ICSVE) ...
Quote
... Abu Henricki al Canadi[5], a Canadian with dual citizenship with Trinidad, who was detained by the SDF in Rojava, Syria spoke with ICSVE researchers for about 1.5 hours on May 12, 2019 giving his first-hand account of being attracted to, traveling, joining and serving in the Islamic State Caliphate, first as a fighter and later designated as unable to fight due to chronic illness. As we were about to bring the interview to a close, Abu Henricki suddenly decided he trusted us enough to unburden himself of something that he claimed had been troubling him for some time.

 “There’s something that’s kind of like was playing in the mind in the past a little while now,” he told us. “I have been contacted by two organizations from the U.S. and Canada to help stop foreign attacks. The one guy in Canada wants to take me under his wing,” he explained his eyes widening. “Another one [the American intel] wants me to go around to people I met, Americans from Texas.” That foreign intelligence also interviews the imprisoned ISIS cadres we talk with and tries to learn from them, and perhaps also recruit them as informants, is no surprise to us, as we frequently hear about it from those we have interviewed in SDF and Iraqi prisons.

(...)

Abu Henricki then opens up about a plot in which he and other Trinidadians were invited to attempt to penetrate the U.S. borders to mount financial attacks on the U.S.  When asked how this occurred, he explains, “The emni [ISIS intelligence arm] was inviting us,” which matches other cases we and others have uncovered, in which the ISIS external emni identifies ISIS cadres willing to go home or attack in countries outside the Caliphate.[6] When asked if he can identify the emni member who invited him, as they routinely wore masks covering their faces, Abu Henricki answers, “He speaks English. He was Tunisian, maybe. I don’t know.  He approached the guys, and they approached me. He didn’t come directly to me.”

This was in the end of 2016. “They, what they will have, what they wanted to do basically is they wanted to do financial attacks. Financial attacks to cripple the [U.S.] economy,” Abu Henricki explains. “Apparently, they have the contacts or whatever papers they can get to a false ID, false passports [to send me out for this kind of attack,] he adds. “They have their system of doing it. So that’s maybe the way that I could have gone out with other individuals. It wasn’t me alone. They were sending you to Puerto Rico and from Puerto Rico [to Mexico].”

“One reason while I was also put in [ISIS] prison in 2016, I was asked to leave [ISIS] to go to America because I’m from that area. Cause they wanted [and] planned to do something and I refused.” Abu Henricki explains. “I refused to do it. That is why also I’m put into [ISIS] prison and been tortured,” he states.

(...)

When asked about the ISIS plot, he explains, “They were going to move me to the Mexican side [of the U.S. southern border] via Puerto Rico. This was mastermind[ed] by a guy in America.

Where he is, I do not know. That information, the plan came from someone from the New Jersey state from America. I was going to take a boat [from Puerto Rico] into Mexico. He was going to smuggle me in,” Abu Henricki explains. “I don’t know where I’d end up. Please be advised, I was not willing to do it,” Abu Henricki adds, wanting to be sure we don’t think he was willing to attack innocent civilians inside the U.S. “But this is one of their wicked, one of the plans that they had,” he explains, “and which I would like to think I foiled the plan by not being part of it.”

While Abu Henricki was told that the aim of the plot was to attack the financial system, as is often the case, the full details of the plot were not disclosed to him. “All I could think of was a bombing mission,” Abu Henricki explains to us, his face becoming deathly serious. Given that the mastermind was from New Jersey, it may have been aimed at New York financial targets ...
More @ link, or in attached PDF.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on June 21, 2019, 12:40:05
UK court (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-48676894):  yes, sending $ to your son who's up to shenanigans = you funding shenanigans …
Quote
The parents of a Muslim convert dubbed "Jihadi Jack" have been found guilty of funding terrorism.

John Letts, 58, and Sally Lane, 57, from Oxford, sent their son £223 (~CAN$ 375) while he was in Syria despite concerns he had joined the Islamic State group.

An Old Bailey jury found the couple not guilty of sending him a further £1,000 (~CAN$ 1700) and could not reach a verdict on a third charge of funding terrorism.

The pair each received 15 months imprisonment, suspended for 12 months.

Muslim convert Jack Letts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Letts)* left his home in Oxford at 18 for Jordan and Kuwait for study and tourism.

In March 2015, police warned the couple they risked prosecution if they sent their son money.

Then in September, Lane transferred money to an account in Lebanon after Jack Letts insisted it had "nothing to do with jihad".

She told him: "I would go to prison for you if I thought it gave you a better chance of actually reaching your 25th birthday."

Judge Nicholas Hilliard QC said: "It was one thing for parents to be optimistic about their children, and I do acknowledge he is your son who you love very much.

"But in this context you did lose sight of realities."

He told the couple: "The warning signs were there for you to see."

He said that they were "intelligent adults" who set aside their suspicions to "please your son" ...
More @ link

* - links to Wikipedia article on dual UK-Canadian national son
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on July 02, 2019, 10:58:15
So, let's see what happens next here (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-government-receives-five-requests-for-travel-docs-for-children-of/) ...
Quote
The government has received requests for travel documents for five children of Canadian citizens whom experts say travelled to war-torn Syria to join the Islamic State and now want to come home.

Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada declined to say whether the Canadian parents of the children had onetime links to the Islamic State in Syria or what kind of travel documents were requested. However, extremism experts who communicate regularly with the Canadians in Syria confirmed the applications were for passports for five of 18 Canadian children overall trapped in the country.

“There is definitely movement on the ground in Canada with families moving to bring their kids back. Lawyers have been involved for some time, and these five kids, who are among the overall 18, will be the first of what is hopefully a broader effort to bring these children home,” said Amarnath Amarasingam, an assistant professor at Queen’s University who researches extremism.

The government has come under renewed pressure to repatriate the Canadian children, most of whom were born to Canadian women who travelled there to join the Islamic State. Mr. Amarasingam said the oldest child is 13, with the majority under 5; he has also identified nine Canadian women and six Canadian men trapped in two Kurdish-run camps in northeastern Syria.

In an interview Wednesday, Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale said that while the stories about children stuck in Syrian camps are “heart-rending,” the government can’t lose sight of the Canadian parents’ actions.

“That is the grossly irresponsible, dangerous and entirely reprehensible behaviour of parents and families that led to their kids being in such circumstances,” Mr. Goodale said.

(...)

Nancy Caron, a spokeswoman for the Immigration department, said the government is not aware of any Canadian passports or travel documents that have been issued to children of Canadian citizens who travelled to join the Islamic State and who are now unable to leave Syria. Canada has no diplomatic presence in Syria so applicants would have to travel to a mission or embassy in a neighbouring country to obtain a passport.

“Given the security situation on the ground, the Government of Canada’s ability to provide consular assistance in any part of Syria is extremely limited,” Ms. Caron said in an e-mail ...
More @ link

:pop:
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Journeyman on July 04, 2019, 09:07:40
John Ivison, "Canada shirking its responsibility to prosecute its citizens who fought for ISIL," National Post,  4 July 2019
LINK (https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/john-ivison-canada-shirking-its-responsibility-to-prosecute-its-citizens-who-fought-for-isil)
Quote
Stewart Bell led an investigative Global News team into Kurdish territory to interview Mohammed Ali, a Canadian from Toronto who was a sniper and trainer for ISIL... This past March, British singer Joss Stone performed a concert in the Kurdish-controlled part of Syria, after sneaking across the border.  Yet, whenever Ottawa is asked about its strategy for dealing with Canadian jihadis detained abroad, the answer is always that the situation is too dangerous for meaningful intervention.

More likely, the Trudeau government would prefer not to have to deal with such an intractable problem before a federal election.

[Interesting side-note]…..there are obvious difficulties facing law enforcement trying to pursue prosecutions for offences committed abroad — as was highlighted by Abu Huzaifa case... a self-admitted ISIL executioner had returned to Canada undetected and has not been charged with any crimes.*

But the idea a television crew and a British pop star could visit northern Syria yet our law-enforcement agencies cannot, is patently preposterous.
Election-year policy:  nothing but sunny-ways can be discussed; 
own-party scandals (name-calling and finger-pointing at others' shortcomings is SOP for all parties) and 'too difficult' issues simply cannot exist.


* For more on Abu Huzaifa, currently living back in Toronto, see MacKenzie Institute, "Canada’s Returned Islamic State Member." (https://mackenzieinstitute.com/2018/05/mixtrac-global-terrorism-activity-briefing)

Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Cloud Cover on July 05, 2019, 18:32:38
“But the idea a television crew and a British pop star could visit northern Syria yet our law-enforcement agencies cannot, is patently preposterous.”


Does Ivison read his own writing: he writes that Joss Stone snuck across the border.  Do we want the RCMP sneaking their way into a foreign country, arresting or otherwise taking into their control a criminal, then sneaking out, and then bringing them to trial. Sounds like a good Charter problem and a potential get out of jail for the terrorists from Canada.
Let the buggers rot over there.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on July 06, 2019, 07:44:08
... Do we want the RCMP sneaking their way into a foreign country, arresting or otherwise taking into their control a criminal, then sneaking out, and then bringing them to trial. Sounds like a good Charter problem and a potential get out of jail for the terrorists from Canada ...
... not to mention potentially more compensation for legal mishandling that goes over soooooooooo well in many circles ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 06, 2019, 11:26:42
Quote from: Cloud Cover



  Do we want the RCMP sneaking their way into a foreign country, arresting or otherwise taking into their control a criminal, then sneaking out, and then bringing them to trial.

CSIS kill-team would be more bang for our buck.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: tomahawk6 on July 06, 2019, 15:28:20
Canada should put them on a no fly list. Does Canada allow its citizens to join terror groups ? If not use that law to hold them. Otherwise revoke their citizenship.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on July 06, 2019, 15:50:26
CSIS kill-team would be more bang for our buck.

But what happened to “sunny ways”? Oh heavens 🤦‍♂️
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: George Wallace on July 06, 2019, 16:58:23
Canada should put them on a no fly list. Does Canada allow its citizens to join terror groups ? If not use that law to hold them. Otherwise revoke their citizenship.

We do have laws pertaining to joining terrorist organizations and leaving the country to join foreign enemies.  Unfortunately, the Government does now have the will to enforce their Laws.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Haggis on July 06, 2019, 17:49:48
CSIS kill-team would be more bang for our buck.

I'm going out on a limb here but I don't think the Trudeau cult Liberal government would survive a scandal around government sanctioned extra-judicial killings of Canadian citizens abroad.  A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian, remember?
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 06, 2019, 18:12:58
I'm going out on a limb here but I don't think the Trudeau cult Liberal government would survive a scandal around government sanctioned extra-judicial killings of Canadian citizens abroad.  A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian, remember?

Thats getting two birds stoned at once as far as I'm concerned  ;D
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on July 06, 2019, 18:19:25
We do have laws pertaining to joining terrorist organizations and leaving the country to join foreign enemies.  Unfortunately, the Government does now have the will to enforce their Laws.
With at least a couple of exceptions (https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,127373.msg1563294.html#msg1563294)  ;) ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brihard on July 06, 2019, 20:59:17
We do have laws pertaining to joining terrorist organizations and leaving the country to join foreign enemies.  Unfortunately, the Government does now have the will to enforce their Laws.

Proving all of the elements of the offense to the satisfaction of the court is the challenge, not least because many of the sources of what we know aren't things that can see the light of day in court. There has been at least one prosecution that they were able to bring forward, and I'm confident that there will be more in time.

Prosecution of a terrorism offense requires consent of the attorney general, but it would be political suicide were the government of the day known to have prevented prosecution of a viable investigation. If police are able to get the evidence, and if the evidence is clean, crown will go forward with it. It's just damned hard to assemble cases that can withstand disclosure and go through the whole court process. Terrorism offences bring really specific requirements for what has to be proven in terms of intent. We've sen a number of cases where other non-terrorism criminal offences are simply a lot easier to proceed with and there would be no value added from stacking the additional, more difficult to prove charges.

Our court process emphasises due process and the rights of an accused, and that's perfectly appropriate. But it makes it damned hard to craft and then apply law to extraterritorial offences in what are often was zones, with a complex and messy mix of military and security intelligence actors in play feeding in info of varying and sometimes dubious reliability.

Bear in mind that in Canadian criminal procedure, the crown is obligated to disclose all evidence to the accused/defense, not just that which is relied upon to prosecute. Any exculpatory evidence in the possession of the crown must be handed over. Once that is combined with the accused needing only to introduce reasonable doubt to be acquitted, and it becomes understandable why so few criminal terrorism charges go to prosecution.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Haggis on July 07, 2019, 11:44:41
Bear in mind that in Canadian criminal procedure, the crown is obligated to disclose all evidence to the accused/defense, not just that which is relied upon to prosecute. Any exculpatory evidence in the possession of the crown must be handed over.

Not to mention that some of that evidence may have been obtained using sensitive or classified methods and/or technologies which the government may not want to acknowledge.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on July 23, 2019, 12:44:44
This, from a Human Rights Watch report (https://reliefweb.int/report/syrian-arab-republic/syria-dire-conditions-isis-suspects-families-enar) on conditions in holding camps in Kurdish-controlled Syria - highlights mine …
Quote
The Kurdish-led Autonomous Administration for northeast Syria is holding more than 11,000 foreign women and children related to Islamic State (also known as ISIS) suspects in appalling and sometimes deadly conditions in a locked desert camp in northeast Syria, Human Rights Watch said today. At least 7,000 of the children are under 12.

During three visits to the section of al-Hol camp holding foreign women and children in June 2019, Human Rights Watch found overflowing latrines, sewage trickling into tattered tents, and residents drinking wash water from tanks containing worms. Young children with skin rashes, emaciated limbs, and swollen bellies sifted through mounds of stinking garbage under a scorching sun or lay limp on tent floors, their bodies dusted with dirt and flies. Children are dying from acute diarrhea and flu-like infections, aid groups and camp managers said.

(…)

I thought, “Now I’ll be able to practice my religion and cover my face without being harassed the way I am at home.” I heard there was bombing and stuff but I didn’t think I’d be living under it. But then I got here [to Syria] and realized how dangerous it was. My husband became disillusioned, too. A year ago, we found a smuggler to take us out. We wanted to start over. But then Kurdish [SDF] forces took us.

• “Miriam” from Canada, mother of two children born in Syria, husband in SDF-controlled prison.

(…)
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Remius on July 23, 2019, 13:02:08

I'd rather focus on getting clean water to certain communities, maybe deal with our homeless vets and make sure polar bears don't go extinct.

We have a such a long list of more important things....
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: tomahawk6 on July 23, 2019, 13:47:07
joining a terror group should cancel your citizenship. Ditto for any offspring. But I agree providing help for the refugee's via the UN or other groups like doctors without borders and other similar groups.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on July 30, 2019, 11:10:57
Interesting approach (https://www.cbc.ca/news/somnia-1.5213820) (sort of a "change the rules for these guys, but only for five years" model) being offered up by someone who's "... a visiting scholar at Queen’s Law. He is a retired U.S. military lawyer and Army Ranger and a former Special Assistant U.S. Attorney. His combat tours include Iraq as a combat camera operator in 2003-4 and Afghanistan as an international law adviser from 2013-4."
Quote
… Take a moment to reflect on some of the most imperative judicial guarantees that form the basis of our identity as Canadians: the right to personally confront witnesses against you, the right to inspect every shred of evidence against you, and the requirement for the Crown to prove each element of all offences to a standard of beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
With that short list of fundamental protections in mind, take another moment to reflect on why these are so essential to our concept of the rule of law. One simple word sums it up: trust. Fundamental judicial guarantees are "fundamental" because they operate as a check on the monopoly of power the sovereign exercises over we the governed.
 
The reason we are not able to find solutions to the problem of prosecuting returning ISIS fighters and supporters is that our starting point is "prosecution" — that is, employing the existing domestic law enforcement structure — to adjudicate alleged offences committed abroad.

(…)

Domestic judicial procedural processes are designed to protect individual freedoms from being abused at home where the government alone is permitted to use powers of force and coercion to settle disputes and maintain the peace, and this monopoly on the use of force is — by definition — not possible on the battlefield as it is at home.
 
An ISIS fighter, regardless of citizenship, did not have the right to examine evidence against him or her before the coalition targeted the fighter on the battlefield. We have now simply moved further along on the spectrum of conflict from active hostilities to adjudicating alleged offences against detained ISIS fighters and supporters.
 
On this spectrum, our government is still acting in its role as belligerent against opposing fighters that are now detained.  Why, then, are we still trying to resort to the standard domestic legal system to "prosecute" fighters that operated in a theatre where the government did not exercise a monopoly on the use of force and was not acting as a sovereign during active hostilities?

(…)

The "notwithstanding clause" of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms permits Parliament to modify judicial processes in certain circumstances for up to five years. The Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act permits Canada to "prosecute" offences against customary international law, and sources from the Nuremberg tribunals to the UN Charter to present-day UN Security Council resolutions confirm that ISIS's military campaign represented a threat to international peace and security and is therefore a violation of customary international law. We have the political will – public opinion demands the effective solutions that have proven to be so elusive ...
More @ link
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 05, 2019, 10:30:29
Credit where it's due, a good if surprising move by the government.

Sadly the story highlights how ridiculously slow our justice system can be. Looks like it will still be a while before he's deported.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/man-who-praised-isis-on-social-media-ordered-deported-from-canada-1.4880418?fbclid=IwAR0Cx28TQLM9njcrM3c8FZJ-XmjRdWlGsBp_XWGz5FW3xzUQ75Q_6WZhOqE
The latest ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 05, 2019, 11:28:46
And this (https://theglobalcoalition.org/en/counter-terrorism-chief-global-coalition-military-intelligence-sharing-method-should-be-copied-all-over-the-world/) from an Interpol cop helping the fight against Daesh/ISIS/ISIL (via the Global Coalition Against Daesh (https://theglobalcoalition.org/en/partners/)) ...
Quote
Patrick Stevens, the Director of Interpol’s Counter Terrorism unit, said the Global Coalition is an example of best practice in sharing military intelligence. “I personally believe that the model we developed under the Global Coalition should be copied all over the world, and actually I can tell you we are trying to copy this model, and hopefully by next year we have similar operations ongoing”, he said.

The methods used during the fight against Daesh are more open and underline the importance of sharing what was formerly seen as “secret” information.

“Until recently, the military kept all military intelligence to themselves. But now, in this operation (Operation Inherent Resolve) they de-classify information – not everything of course – just what is necessary to bring awareness and alert the member countries through police channels”, said Mr Stevens.

“They give the de-classified information to a member country, and that country then gives it to Interpol. We already have more than 50,000 notices and 400,000 entities in one of our analytical databases, so we can enrich the data and we can disseminate it to other countries. And they can bring this to their own national databases or their border police.”

Terrorists who have served their time

In a wide-ranging interview with the Global Coalition’s On The Line podcast, the Interpol chief also reported that convicted terrorists – including ex-members of Daesh – are now beginning to leave prisons in European countries, having served their time. But, he warned, these ex-prisoners “may not be being followed up correctly”.

This was partly a capacity problem, Mr Stevens explained. “I’m not sure if all these people are followed up correctly – if every country has enough capacity to follow these people up and if there is an international cooperation process for the follow-up”. He urged countries to increase international cooperation, through Interpol, so the biometrics of more former prisoners can be held in databases.

This would mean, he said, that if the former prisoners travel to a different country using a false name or passport, they can be verified through the database, and the relevant country authorities would be alerted.

He stressed that this did not mean they would necessarily be arrested – because they have already done their time in prison – but it would be part of sharing good information about “who is in front of officials” – for example at border posts ...
A bit more @ link
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brihard on August 05, 2019, 13:17:49
And this (https://theglobalcoalition.org/en/counter-terrorism-chief-global-coalition-military-intelligence-sharing-method-should-be-copied-all-over-the-world/) from an Interpol cop helping the fight against Daesh/ISIS/ISIL (via the Global Coalition Against Daesh (https://theglobalcoalition.org/en/partners/)) ...A bit more @ link

That sounds like some real efforts are being made to improve the evidence sharing situation (as distinguished from intelligence sharing). I’ve spoken at length on this before, no need to repeat right now... I’m just glad to see the problem acknowledged, with concrete efforts to address it.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Fishbone Jones on August 07, 2019, 21:06:06
 :sarcasm: Why even bother if we just let them walk across the border, move to Toronto sanctuary city, give them everything they need and let them do whatever they want. It's not like the government cares. We have no idea who we have in this country, where they are or who they are. Even our minister of insecurity, goodale, admits to it.

Besides, we may have to give them millions once we identify them. I don't think we have millions left in the bank to give them, for killing our soldiers. I think the muslim brotherhood has most of it. :dunno:
 :sarcasm:
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 07, 2019, 22:05:07
Some commentary from a former CSIS-ite (https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/gurski-prosecuting-canadian-terrorists-who-fought-abroad-is-a-tough-challenge) ...
Quote
... Many may ask: Why is this so hard? Just lock these terrorists up and throw away the key! Except that we cannot do this. We have laws and courts and a Constitution and a Charter for a reason: We are the antithesis of what IS claimed it was. We are a democratic state where rule of law applies and people are presumed innocent unless they can be found guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Furthermore, given the difficulty in using evidence collected half a world away in a war zone, it should be clear why we have had so few successful prosecutions to date.

I share your frustrations. While a senior strategic analyst and terrorism specialist at CSIS, I worked on such cases. Yet the Crown still has to prove its case and in some instances that may be all but impossible. We in Canada do not incarcerate those we have not found guilty.

We are then left with several options. We can leave them where they are and let the Iraqis and Syrians deal with them: after all, their crimes were committed in Iraqi or Syrian sovereign territory. We can bring them back and try to prosecute them but if we fail we may have terrorists among us who can carry out attacks here. We can put them through “deradicalization” programs although these are controversial and there is no guarantee they work. Or we can let CSIS and/or the RCMP keep tabs on them indefinitely, although this is very resource-intensive and expensive.

If it were up to me I’d choose the first option, even if I am not in favour of the death penalty that may apply. Who are we to tell a foreign state that a Canadian who commits an offence in their country cannot be held accountable there?

The bottom line is that this is a no-win problem for a Canadian government of any stripe ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brihard on August 07, 2019, 23:59:09
Some commentary from a former CSIS-ite (https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/gurski-prosecuting-canadian-terrorists-who-fought-abroad-is-a-tough-challenge) ...

Yup, the government is obligated only to do certain things. They are obligated to provide consular services, but they aren’t obligated to provide legal assistance. They’re obligated to provide emergency travel documents; they aren’t obligated to get them a flight.

The government will be able to effectively forsake some of them, and that will work.

That still leaves the necessity of having a plan for those who manage to make it back. At some point the Kurds, Turks, Syrians, whomever are going to just start putting some of these assholes on planes and making them our problem. Then we’re right back at square one... “what we know” vs “what we can prove in a court of law”...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Target Up on August 08, 2019, 00:49:55
Yup, the government is obligated only to do certain things. They are obligated to provide consular services, but they aren’t obligated to provide legal assistance. They’re obligated to provide emergency travel documents; they aren’t obligated to get them a flight.

The government will be able to effectively forsake some of them, and that will work.

That still leaves the necessity of having a plan for those who manage to make it back. At some point the Kurds, Turks, Syrians, whomever are going to just start putting some of these assholes on planes and making them our problem. Then we’re right back at square one... “what we know” vs “what we can prove in a court of law”...

"Welcome home. Kneel down facing the ditch. Now, smile and wait for the flash".
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brihard on August 08, 2019, 01:14:09
"Welcome home. Kneel down facing the ditch. Now, smile and wait for the flash".

Yeah... That’s the tough thing about not being ISIS. You don’t get to be ISIS.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Target Up on August 08, 2019, 01:18:17
Yeah... That’s the tough thing about not being ISIS. You don’t get to be ISIS.

Yeah... That's the tough thing about jokes, not everyone understands it's a joke.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brihard on August 08, 2019, 02:14:52
Yeah... That's the tough thing about jokes, not everyone understands it's a joke.

I know you weren’t being serious. And believe me, I get the sentiment. My comment was with a healthy heaping of irony. Being the good guys constrains us more than we would sometimes like. *shrug* It is what it is.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Good2Golf on August 08, 2019, 06:44:53
I know you weren’t being serious. And believe me, I get the sentiment. My comment was with a healthy heaping of irony. Being the good guys constrains us more than we would sometimes like. *shrug* It is what it is.

...although it certainly does make Canada a much nicer place to live/come home to. :nod:

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 08, 2019, 10:56:59
Yeah... That’s the tough thing about not being ISIS. You don’t get to be ISIS.
Or, sarcasm/jokes/irony aside, put another way ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Target Up on August 08, 2019, 11:03:31
Because if you kill your enemy, he wins, or something?  8)
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 08, 2019, 11:51:51
Because if you kill your enemy, he wins, or something?  8)
Hey, I agree that life would be simpler if bad guys met their destiny on foreign battlefields, but the system we got is the system we got, warts & all. 

As I've said before, if this stuff was easy, other governments with WAY more of an appetite to deal with this would have dealt with it more quickly and more harshly -- and no, that's not blaming past management, that's just showing the bigger picture for context ;)
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Fishbone Jones on August 08, 2019, 13:05:30
Hey, I agree that life would be simpler if bad guys met their destiny on foreign battlefields, but the system we got is the system we got, warts & all. 

As I've said before, if this stuff was easy, other governments with WAY more of an appetite to deal with this would have dealt with it more quickly and more harshly -- and no, that's not blaming past management, that's just showing the bigger picture for context ;)

So, speaking hypothetically of course, Britain giving the SAS a hit list and saying, "These people are not to make it home" type of thing?
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 08, 2019, 14:26:06
So, speaking hypothetically of course, Britain giving the SAS a hit list and saying, "These people are not to make it home" type of thing?
Woulda, coulda, shoulda @ this point -- since folks are alive & in someone's custody, the legal cards we're dealt are the cards we have to play.  And it appears to be a difficult hand so far ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brihard on August 08, 2019, 19:26:32
So, speaking hypothetically of course, Britain giving the SAS a hit list and saying, "These people are not to make it home" type of thing?

I suspect that we’re most of us in violent agreement on this. A Daesh financier, propagandist, communications specialist, mechanic, or munitions tech is as fair game in the theatre of operations as a service battalion laager would be in conventional war. If bearded dudes with cool helmets smoke the target better than a JDAM or fire mission- battery, go nuts.

The Brits, et al, made a sound policy decision on this.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda @ this point -- since folks are alive & in someone's custody, the legal cards we're dealt are the cards we have to play.  And it appears to be a difficult hand so far ...

Unfortunately, yup.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 12, 2019, 10:55:28
The latest ...
  • 2 Aug 2019: "Online ISIS supporter deemed a danger to Canada ordered released from custody" (https://globalnews.ca/news/5719840/online-isis-released/)
  • 4 Aug 2019:  "Federal Court halts release of alleged online ISIS supporter" (https://globalnews.ca/news/5726602/court-halts-release-alleged-isis-supporter/)
A bit more (https://globalnews.ca/news/5746035/releasing-alleged-isis-supporter-canadians-at-risk/?fbclid=IwAR22a-k_vsUvknZmVZyPEq6F1CE07igLRl2cANs0DrkC3OBqYWeQ94C2_z4) …
Quote
Canadians will be “put at risk” if alleged ISIS supporter Othman Ayad Hamdan is released from immigration detention in British Columbia, officials argued in an application filed in the Federal Court.

There is “clear and compelling evidence that irreparable harm will occur” if Hamdan is released and it is “in the public interest” to continue his detention, according to the document.
   
The government submitted the 21-page memorandum to the court in Vancouver after the Immigration and Refugee Board last week ordered officials to free Hamdan on 25 conditions.

The release conditions imposed by IRB member Geoff Rempel — which include a $2,000 bond and an internet ban — “fall well short of mitigating the danger to the public,” the officials argued.

“The terms and conditions imposed by the member simply do not manage, or mitigate, the risk of release. The safety of the Canadian public will be put at risk if the stay is not granted.”

The submission also complained that Rempel had ordered Hamdan to live in Enderby, B.C., “despite the fact that Enderby is an 84 minute [sic] drive from the Revelstoke Dam, which the respondent had identified as an infrastructure target.”

A hearing has been scheduled for Monday, Aug. 12 to decide whether Hamdan, 37, should remain in custody while the government appeals his release order ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 13, 2019, 17:14:13
Elsewhere (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/isis-children-syria-shamima-begum-al-hol-terrorism-immigration-a9054306.html) …
Quote
Children of British Isis members stranded in Syria will not be allowed to return to the UK, the government has reportedly decided.

At least 30 British children are currently being held with their mothers in camps in northern Syria, after being detained as they fled the crumbling Isis caliphate.

The government has been under pressure to bring them home from the dangerous and overcrowded camps, both from local Syrian authorities and from the Trump administration. Earlier this year the infant son of Shamima Begum, the teenager who fled her home in Bethnal Green to join Isis, died weeks after arriving at one of the facilities.

The former foreign secretary Jeremy Hunt had said following the death that the government was working with the then international development secretary, Penny Mordaunt, on whether the children could be safely returned.
 
But Sajid Javid, the former home secretary, concluded after a review that it would be too dangerous to send officials to retrieve the children from Syria, according to The Times – despite the camps being regularly visited by British aid workers and journalists ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: FJAG on August 18, 2019, 02:42:59
Jihadi Jack now Canada's problem as Britain strips him of his UK citizenship.

Quote
ISIS fighter Jihadi Jack is stripped of his UK passport sparking furious diplomatic row with Canada where he has joint citizenship
EXCLUSIVE: Jihadi Jack, an IS fighter, has been stripped of his British citizenship
Muslim convert Jack Letts, 24, fled his Oxfordshire home to fight in Syria
Move has sparked a row between the UK and Canada, as he is a dual citizen
By HARRY COLE FOR THE MAIL ON SUNDA

The IS fighter known as Jihadi Jack has been stripped of his British citizenship, sparking a furious diplomatic row with Canada.

Muslim convert Jack Letts, 24, had held duel UK and Canadian citizenship but declared himself an ‘enemy of Britain’ after fleeing his Oxfordshire home to fight in Syria.

After being captured by Kurdish authorities, he begged to be allowed back to the UK and, despite previously saying he wanted to be a suicide bomber, insisted he had ‘no intention of blowing up’ Britons.

But The Mail on Sunday can reveal that the Home Office has torn up his British passport, making him the responsibility of the Canadian government.

The decision has sparked fury in Ottawa, with fears of a public spat when Canadian PM Justin Trudeau meets Boris Johnson at the G7 summit in France next weekend.

Whitehall officials suspect the row may also explain the recent hardline stance taken by the Canadians over a post-Brexit trade deal with the UK.
...

See rest of article here:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7367565/ISIS-fighter-Jihadi-Jack-stripped-UK-passport-sparking-furious-diplomatic-row-Canada.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7367565/ISIS-fighter-Jihadi-Jack-stripped-UK-passport-sparking-furious-diplomatic-row-Canada.html)

 :stirpot:
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on August 18, 2019, 09:24:45
Jihadi Jack now Canada's problem as Britain strips him of his UK citizenship.

See rest of article here:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7367565/ISIS-fighter-Jihadi-Jack-stripped-UK-passport-sparking-furious-diplomatic-row-Canada.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7367565/ISIS-fighter-Jihadi-Jack-stripped-UK-passport-sparking-furious-diplomatic-row-Canada.html)

 :stirpot:

A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian.

Where have I heard that before??

Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Cloud Cover on August 19, 2019, 15:27:45
So deal with him there before he comes here.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brihard on August 19, 2019, 16:00:03
So deal with him there before he comes here.  :facepalm:

What do you propose that would be legal? There’s one set of options for combatants in a theatre of operations. There’s another set of options for civil prisoners in foreign custody.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Target Up on August 19, 2019, 19:48:44
What do you propose that would be legal? There’s one set of options for combatants in a theatre of operations. There’s another set of options for civil prisoners in foreign custody.

Pointy umbrella full of ricin sounds about right.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: PuckChaser on August 19, 2019, 19:57:21
Pointy umbrella full of ricin sounds about right.

That's too quick for him. Let him rot in a Kurdish prison. He wanted to play big boy games, now he can have big boy prizes.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 19, 2019, 20:15:20
What do you propose that would be legal?

Let it slip that him and Jeffrey Epstein were communicating.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on August 19, 2019, 20:18:48
What do you propose that would be legal? There’s one set of options for combatants in a theatre of operations. There’s another set of options for civil prisoners in foreign custody.

To put it bluntly, our hands are tied. We won't have a choice.

He'll be coming back whether we like it or not.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Remius on August 20, 2019, 08:25:46

Its' what we do with him when he gets here that will be the test.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Journeyman on August 20, 2019, 09:08:33
Its' what we do with him when he gets here that will be the test.
We don't have a particularly stellar track record;  of the approximately 60 foreign fighters who have returned to Canada, we've managed to convict FOUR.

Cup half full, we've only paid one $10.6M 
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brihard on August 20, 2019, 10:03:16
A complicating factor for him: Logistics.

OK, he's a Canadian citizen by birth to a Canadian parent. By virtue of citizenship we cannot keep him out should he arrive (again, as always, our government needn't try too hard to help him here). If he gets here, he needs a place to stay, a roof over his head, food. He barely has a pot to piss in. Had he returned to Britain, safe to assume he'd have been back under his parents' roof.

His father is of course a Canadian citizen, and likewise can enter Canada. His mother, though, is a British citizen, not Canadian. More to the point, she's a British citizen with a conviction under the Terrorism Act for entering into a funding arrangement, an indictable offense that carries a maximum sentence of 14 years, and which carries comparable consequences in Canada. That makes her inadmissible to Canada for serious criminality.

So the father but not the mother can enter Canada. The son can't enter Britain. I don't know the father's immigration status in Britain, but I suspect they as a family are hyper-conscious about the potential consequences should he leave British soil with his similar conviction. There may not be any one single location where the whole family can be together. I think that's one of those 'stupid prizes'?

EDIT TO ADD: And of course immediately after I post this, the next article I read mentions that the couple has separated. So it may well end up as father and son back in Canada.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Remius on August 20, 2019, 13:38:25
We don't have a particularly stellar track record;  of the approximately 60 foreign fighters who have returned to Canada, we've managed to convict FOUR.

Cup half full, we've only paid one $10.6M

Were not the only ones...

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/americas-isis-members-are-coming-home
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Target Up on August 20, 2019, 20:01:48
Were not the only ones...

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/americas-isis-members-are-coming-home

Well, that makes it alright, then.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 20, 2019, 21:49:02
Well, that makes it alright, then.
No, but many folks who don't want this guy back (understandably) also seem to like many of the ideas of some who say these folks should be going back to their home territory to face trials ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: FJAG on August 20, 2019, 22:13:29
No, but many folks who don't want this guy back (understandably) also seem to like many of the ideas of some who say these folks should be going back to their home territory to face trials ...

That's a whole lot easier said then done. Jurisdiction is a big issue. National laws respecting extraterritorial crimes are varied and, in some case, nonexistent.

Evidence in order to prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt is another.

By far the simplest solution is to allow Iraq and Syria to try and punish anyone for crimes committed within their territory although there remain issues with the various factions claiming control of parts of each country.

Bringing people "home" to North America or Europe for trial is by far the most complex and expensive process which will result in numerous offenders getting off scot-free.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Cloud Cover on August 20, 2019, 23:50:20
In these cases it might be better to let a little bit of local justice trump national concerns and the niceties of western concepts of punishment fitting the crime. Bringing them here is a reward and a nod to nefarious and evil acts.  If the worst these people can expect upon capture or surrender is to be shipped to a place like Canada, there is no deterrent.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: FJAG on August 21, 2019, 00:18:15
In these cases it might be better to let a little bit of local justice trump national concerns and the niceties of western concepts of punishment fitting the crime. Bringing them here is a reward and a nod to nefarious and evil acts.  If the worst these people can expect upon capture or surrender is to be shipped to a place like Canada, there is no deterrent.

The Sixth amendment to the US Constitution provides:

Quote
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence

In Canada:

Quote
R v Kellar (1973), 24 C.R.N.S. 71(*no CanLII links) , at p. 77, R v Singh, 2018 ONSC 1532 (CanLII), per Durno J, at para 150 ("There remains a presumption that a trial will be held in the place where the offence occurred. Reasons of convenience, court efficiency, and the need for members of the community in which the crime is alleged to have occurred to see justice done all continue to support holding the trial where the indictment was filed. However, in Canada there is no right to have a trial in a particular city, village or town where the offence occurred…")
see also R v Suzack, 2000 CanLII 5630 (ON CA), per Doherty JA ("It is a well-established principle that criminal trials should be held in the venue in which the alleged crime took place. This principle serves both the interests of the community and those of the accused")

My view is that the people of Syria and Iraq (even Jordan and some others) are entitled to see justice done within their jurisdictions. ISIS perpetrated or participated in some of the most heinous crimes against their people and property.

These are principles of our own laws. Why should we let our citizens who voluntarily went to a foreign country to commit crimes escape punishment by the very people they harmed?

 :dunno:
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 21, 2019, 09:44:23
In these cases it might be better to let a little bit of local justice trump national concerns and the niceties of western concepts of punishment fitting the crime.
My view is that the people of Syria and Iraq (even Jordan and some others) are entitled to see justice done within their jurisdictions. ISIS perpetrated or participated in some of the most heinous crimes against their people and property.
Agreed - local crime = local process + local time.  That said, if these folks are being held by an entity that isn't really a country @ this point (in Kurdish-held bits of other countries), do they have enough of a legal system to try these guys?  And we know what happened the last time we let Syria deal with a suspicious Canadian (https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/maher-arar-case) ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on August 21, 2019, 10:32:25
True enough, Milnews.

However, there is a big difference. In the Arrar case, the Canadian governement, through the improper actions of the RCMP, was found to have been the cause of Arrar's deportation to another country to face unwarranted justice for acts he did not commit (At least, that is the final narative from the various Supreme Court cases).

In the case of "terror travelers" like the present instance, these people voluntarily exited their country of origin to enter another country and commit acts there that may attract "proceedings" against them locally. In such case, Canada, or any other country, not only has no obligation but has no power to interfere in the justice system of such foreign countries - save to provide consular assistance where possible. And consular assistance, BTW, does not include providing in any way for the legal defence of such Canadian, nor their repatriation - unless they are a country we have Treaty with to permit repatriation after the trial in order to serve their sentence pronounced by the foreign power but in a Canadian jail. We have very few such treaties and they are usually with other Western democracies.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 21, 2019, 11:28:33
In the case of "terror travelers" like the present instance, these people voluntarily exited their country of origin to enter another country and commit acts there that may attract "proceedings" against them locally. In such case, Canada, or any other country, not only has no obligation but has no power to interfere in the justice system of such foreign countries - save to provide consular assistance where possible.
Seen.

Any insights re:  whether the Kurds have enough of a legal justice "system" to be considered even reasonable/"fair"?  I ask because I'm guessing (always stand to be corrected) if a Canadian were tried under such a system while laws in place in Canada could also deal with them, more compensation payments could be pending.  I suspect there's not much of a system in place, given their eagerness to move these folks along?
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Journeyman on August 21, 2019, 11:35:26
…. more compensation payments could be pending.
   :facepalm:

And of course, no one will commit to anything  potentially controversial until after the election.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Czech_pivo on August 21, 2019, 11:50:59
True enough, Milnews.

However, there is a big difference. In the Arrar case, the Canadian governement, through the improper actions of the RCMP, was found to have been the cause of Arrar's deportation to another country to face unwarranted justice for acts he did not commit (At least, that is the final narative from the various Supreme Court cases).

In the case of "terror travelers" like the present instance, these people voluntarily exited their country of origin to enter another country and commit acts there that may attract "proceedings" against them locally. In such case, Canada, or any other country, not only has no obligation but has no power to interfere in the justice system of such foreign countries - save to provide consular assistance where possible. And consular assistance, BTW, does not include providing in any way for the legal defence of such Canadian, nor their repatriation - unless they are a country we have Treaty with to permit repatriation after the trial in order to serve their sentence pronounced by the foreign power but in a Canadian jail. We have very few such treaties and they are usually with other Western democracies.

Try them all in Den Hague and those convicted be jailed there.  They can swap stories about ethnic cleansing with the ex-Yugo's.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 21, 2019, 12:12:20
   :facepalm:

And of course, no one will commit to anything  potentially controversial until after the election.
:nod:
Try them all in Den Hague and those convicted be jailed there.  They can swap stories about ethnic cleansing with the ex-Yugo's.
The idea of "..."a special international tribunal in north-east Syria to prosecute terrorists" to ensure that trials are "conducted fairly and in accordance with international law and human rights covenants and charters" ..." (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-47704464) has been brought up by the Kurds currently hosting the terror tourists.  I suspect the same issue of getting evidence from war zones and/or less-than-fully-rule-of-law states that'll stand up in court goes for int'l courts as much as it does for Canadian courts.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Cloud Cover on August 21, 2019, 15:59:20
It can be done though. There was a special court set up for prosecutions in Cambodia and the Khmer Rouge.

https://www.nurembergacademy.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Cambodia.pdf

https://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=677119021086099006106006119118122088127008049065074002106110004027029109077121083073029003016045000030051090114084018115117087057042094035072064005007120079090127031089032086025022106116072094083014088082093097095116124030013069073089096087104104106013&EXT=pdf

https://journals.sagepub.com/eprint/7MKQ3K7iSXKK6tQPSWQi/full
Note: bit of a warning about making these crimes out in international law vs local, territorial, tribal or custom law- justice will be selective, limited and probably not what victims are entitled to see done, if there is any justice at all.
“This disjuncture between victim discourse and the delivery of ‘justice’ can in part be attributed to the selective delivery of justice offered by legal institutions (Robins, 2017: 45). Only a small number of atrocities fall within the scope of ICL, and of those only some will be acknowledged as such by the international community (Cryer, 2005; Simpson, 1997). Even those victims whose atrocities fall within ICL may be excluded from recognition and redress (Robins, 2017), as prosecutorial strategies prioritise specific harms and perpetrators over others (Pritchett, 2008; Côte, 2005). Those whose victimisations are prosecuted may continue to find themselves excluded from or marginalised by the trial process, as adversarial procedures may reduce their visibility within the courtroom (Dignan, 2005). These institutional choices with regards to jurisdictional limits, charges, and modes of victim participation, create what Kendall and Nouwen (2013) have termed a ‘pyramid’ of victimhood, with victims of harm at the bottom, and those recognised by ICL institutions as worthy of redress at the top.”

Going back up to what OGBD and FJAG are pointing out, it seems illogical to prosecute any of these ISIL criminals under country of origin or even international law. Justice should be delivered within the locality of where the crime was committed. To wit: Nuremberg is in Germany and some thoughts about the type and character of the law applied by the victors: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1946/04/nuremberg-a-fair-trial-a-dangerous-precedent/306492/



Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brihard on August 21, 2019, 16:58:32
In the Citizen today, courtesy of Reuters:

Canada says it will not help Jihadi Jack come to the country (https://ottawacitizen.com/pmn/elections-pmn/canada-says-it-will-not-help-jihadi-jack-come-to-the-country/wcm/9d011f74-60e6-4ddb-8731-0d7827a407f1?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3T56-ZwpiyNfx0ZFPFbE8f0R6S1gaXv9d7gOIZuhoNPLqvUe2zyvqjEOo#Echobox=1566357976)

Pretty much as I’ve been saying... We can’t keep him out, but we don’t need to send him a plane or a ticket.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 21, 2019, 17:59:40
Thanks for sharing, Cloud Cover - forgot about those.
Note: bit of a warning about making these crimes out in international law vs local, territorial, tribal or custom law- justice will be selective, limited and probably not what victims are entitled to see done, if there is any justice at all.
Sadly, this wouldn't be the only such system where this'll be true ... :(
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 22, 2019, 22:23:12
... And of course immediately after I post this, the next article I read mentions that the couple has separated. So it may well end up as father and son back in Canada.
Funny you should mention that ....  ;D
Quote
The father of Jack Letts, a Canadian who was stripped of his British citizenship over his alleged support for the Islamic State, says he is hoping to visit Canada in the coming weeks to advocate for his son’s repatriation and is considering a permanent move.

(...)

John said he and Ms. Lane are considering moving to Canada in the longer term because they’ve been “basically hounded out of Britain” for being Jack’s parents.

“It’s destroyed us in a personal sense. It’s destroyed our family. It’s certainly destroyed us financially. We’re about destitute. We literally can’t pay the rent so we have to abandon our rented house,” John said.

The couple was sentenced to 15 months in prison in June, but the judge suspended the sentence for a year, saying they had lost sight of reality while trying to help their son.

John said he and Ms. Lane would like to be in Canada if Jack is repatriated, so they can support him through his return.

“If Britain doesn’t like who I am, I’d happily move to Canada, and we’re talking about that as an option," he said ...
More in the Globe & Mail here (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-jack-lettss-father-hopes-canada-will-step-up-to-the-plate-to-secure).
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 22, 2019, 22:46:51
Here's an idea.

John Letts and Ms Lane can hop on a flight to Syria and go support their son over there.

Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 22, 2019, 22:51:40
John Letts and Ms Lane can hop on a flight to Syria and go support their son over there.
And they though the UK treated them badly for sending money to an ISIS member ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brihard on August 22, 2019, 22:58:45
Still not knowing if she picked up Canadian citizenship at any point, I’m not sure how well attempting to come to Canada would go for her with her conviction. I wonder if somehow they haven’t thought of that?
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 22, 2019, 23:02:39
Still not knowing if she picked up Canadian citizenship at any point, I’m not sure how well attempting to come to Canada would go for her with her conviction ...
... or the father's for that matter.

Oh my, just caught this, too ...
"Father of accused ISIL member Jack Letts challenges Andrew Scheer to a debate on son's fate" (https://nationalpost.com/news/father-of-accused-isil-member-jack-letts-challenges-andrew-scheer-to-a-debate-on-sons-fate)

:pop:
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on August 22, 2019, 23:05:52
... or the father's for that matter.

Oh my, just caught this, too ...
"Father of accused ISIL member Jack Letts challenges Andrew Scheer to a debate on son's fate" (https://nationalpost.com/news/father-of-accused-isil-member-jack-letts-challenges-andrew-scheer-to-a-debate-on-sons-fate)

:pop:

I can hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the left wingers who think he's "misunderstood" etc....

Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 22, 2019, 23:19:21
And they though the UK treated them badly for sending money to an ISIS member ...

Maybe if they came across a pile of bones and some rotting toys they might re-evaluate defending their sons choices.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brihard on August 22, 2019, 23:22:16
I can hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the left wingers who think he's "misunderstood" etc....

Your ears are excellent then. I've yet to see or hear anyone coming to his defense. I'm not saying they're out there; inevitably there will be a few- just please don't presnt it as if that is a broadly held or accepted view from what you would lump as 'the left'.

... or the father's for that matter.

Oh my, just caught this, too ...
"Father of accused ISIL member Jack Letts challenges Andrew Scheer to a debate on son's fate" (https://nationalpost.com/news/father-of-accused-isil-member-jack-letts-challenges-andrew-scheer-to-a-debate-on-sons-fate)

:pop:

The father's a Canadian citizen. Given his propensity for running to the media, had his passport been revoked I'm sure we'd have heard of it. Though maybe in a bit of hilarity he's been added to a no fly list? Not sure. But in any case it's quite likely he'd be able to come back to Canada. His mother, providing she's not a citizenship, has been convicted of an offense that should make her inadmissible to Canada.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 23, 2019, 14:56:49
Another nudge from our southern neighbours (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/powerandpolitics/pompeo-canada-detained-isis-fighters-1.5256590) …
Quote
U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo today pointedly called on Canada to repatriate Canadian citizens who joined ISIS and are now detained in Syria.
 
"We want every country to take their citizens back. That's step one. It's imperative that they do so," said Pompeo in an interview with CBC News Network's Power & Politics. "Each country needs to take responsibility for their own citizens that travelled to Syria and fought as terrorists.

 
"We've been clear with the Canadian government. We want them to take their people back."
 
The top U.S. diplomat's remarks came one day after U.S. President Donald Trump threatened to release captured ISIS fighters into Europe.
 
"We're holding thousands of ISIS fighters right now. And Europe has to take them. And if Europe doesn't take them, I'll have no choice but to release them into the countries from which they came. Which is Germany and France and other places," said Trump.
 
Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale said Tuesday on Power & Politics that the federal government will ensure that the law is applied, but Canada is not legally obliged to facilitate the return of Jack Letts, a captured Canadian citizen accused of joining ISIS.
 
Goodale said that the Canadian government's first obligation is to national security and the safety of Canadians ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brad Sallows on August 23, 2019, 15:08:45
This is getting interesting.

All of these people are going to be disposed of somehow, unless they are to remain exactly where they are, as they are.  There will be degrees of active and passive responsibility on the parts of the nations involved.  I foresee a lot of hand-washing.

The "Canada must accept responsibility for its citizens" crowd is a little bit quiet on this matter.  Maybe if the people were all transferred to Gitmo first it would move things along?
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 23, 2019, 15:33:37
… Maybe if the people were all transferred to Gitmo first it would move things along?
If the U.S. wants foreigners to end up back in their own foreign lands, this isn't likely, but it would sure make the debate more … brisk :)
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on August 23, 2019, 17:19:47
So Secretary Pompeo has stated:

"Each country needs to take responsibility for their own citizens that travelled to Syria and fought as terrorists. (...) We've been clear with the Canadian government. We want them to take their people back."

Does this mean that, in the case of Jihady Jack, the US will pressure the UK into doing the right thing and take responsibility? After all, under his circumstances, it is difficult to pretend that he travelled to Syria as a "Canadian" citizen rather than as a British one. Similarly, how can you claim that Canada should take  back someone who never left (or even ever resided in) Canada. In fact, since he has never set foot in Canada for more than perhaps a quick family trip in his youth, The U.K., from which he left to jihad, not Canada, is the only country that could have stopped him from travelling to Syria.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Journeyman on August 23, 2019, 17:35:00
So Secretary Pompeo has stated:

"Each country needs to take responsibility for their own citizens that travelled to Syria and fought as terrorists. (...) We've been clear with the Canadian government. We want them to take their people back."

Does this mean that, in the case of Jihady Jack, the US will pressure the UK into doing the right thing and take responsibility? After all, under his circumstances, it is difficult to pretend that he travelled to Syria as a "Canadian" citizen rather than as a British one. Similarly, how can you claim that Canada should take  back someone who never left (or even ever resided in) Canada. In fact, since he has never set foot in Canada for more than perhaps a quick family trip in his youth, The U.K., from which he left to jihad, not Canada, is the only country that could have stopped him from travelling to Syria.
Pffft   mere facts and logic.  Not applicable to this regime at the best of times.   ~dismissive wave~
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 23, 2019, 19:43:01
... how can you claim that Canada should take  back someone who never left (or even ever resided in) Canada. In fact, since he has never set foot in Canada for more than perhaps a quick family trip in his youth, The U.K., from which he left to jihad, not Canada, is the only country that could have stopped him from travelling to Syria.
Stop making the defence's case, you!  ;D
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: tomahawk6 on August 24, 2019, 18:09:16
UN refugee camp not much fun eh ?
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: PuckChaser on August 24, 2019, 19:08:17
UN refugee camp not much fun eh ?

He's in a Kurdish prison. I hope he gets a nice long sentence so he can stay there for a few decades to think about whether he's a fan of "sharia" or not anymore.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on August 24, 2019, 23:01:15
He's in a Kurdish prison. I hope he gets a nice long sentence so he can stay there for a few decades to think about whether he's a fan of "sharia" or not anymore.

I bet he’s a catcher.....
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Ostrozac on August 24, 2019, 23:10:34
He's in a Kurdish prison. I hope he gets a nice long sentence so he can stay there for a few decades to think about whether he's a fan of "sharia" or not anymore.

He won’t be in a Kurdish prison for decades, that isn’t an option, which is part of the problem. The stated US policy is to reduce/eliminate support for Kurdish forces in Syria, and as a result they are thinning out, and things like running a prison system aren’t in the budget. A smooth handover of their prisons to the Assad Regime isn’t in the cards, Iraq also isn’t interested, and the YPG aren’t going to simply shoot all their prisoners. We are still grasping for a solution for prisoner handling, both in this and the next few insurgencies, and we are wallpapering over that fundamental gap in capability. Gitmo was flawed, but it was multinational and supported multiple theatres, and trying to retire it without a replacement capability was a mistake.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: tomahawk6 on August 24, 2019, 23:10:55
At least one US citizen turned bedroom jihadist comfort woman has been denied entry back into the US. To use an old saying " made your bed now lay in it ."
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 25, 2019, 01:08:54
At least one US citizen turned bedroom jihadist comfort woman has been denied entry back into the US. To use an old saying " made your bed now lay in it ."


But

Quote
"Each country needs to take responsibility for their own citizens that travelled to Syria and fought as terrorists. (...) We've been clear with the Canadian government. We want them to take their people back."
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on September 03, 2019, 15:08:38
At least one US citizen turned bedroom jihadist comfort woman has been denied entry back into the US. To use an old saying " made your bed now lay in it ."
... in addition to some others nabbed & charged after being returned by the Kurds:

Meanwhile, while they're waiting (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/03/world/middleeast/isis-alhol-camp-syria.html) ...
Quote
In the desert camp in northeastern Syria where tens of thousands of Islamic State fighters’ wives and children have been trapped for months in miserable conditions with no prospects of leaving, ISIS sympathizers regularly torch the tents of women deemed infidels.

Fights between camp residents have brought smuggled guns into the open, and some women have attacked or threatened others with knives and hammers. Twice, in June and July, women stabbed the Kurdish guards who were escorting them, sending the camp into lockdown.

Virtually all women wear the niqab, the full-length black veil demanded by ISIS’s rigid interpretation of Islam — some because they still adhere to the group’s ideology, others because they fear running afoul of the true believers.

The Kurdish-run Al Hol camp is struggling to secure and serve nearly 70,000 displaced people, mainly women and children who fled there during the last battle to oust the Islamic State from eastern Syria. Filled with women stripped of hope and children who regularly die before receiving medical care, it has become what aid workers, researchers and American military officials warn is a disaster in the making ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Cloud Cover on September 04, 2019, 14:06:05
Sounds like hell on earth for the living  :( 
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on September 04, 2019, 17:05:55
Sounds like hell on earth for the living  :(
Some'll say "play with the bull, expect some horn," while others'll say, "good place to create more of these guys, especially if they can buy their way out to do bad crap elsewhere."  #FarFromEasySolutions
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Czech_pivo on September 05, 2019, 10:57:44
Some'll say "play with the bull, expect some horn," while others'll say, "good place to create more of these guys, especially if they can buy their way out to do bad crap elsewhere."  #FarFromEasySolutions

If we could only ask the dead that were killed by these people, or their husbands/sons/brothers/fathers, if they'd be willing to trade places with them....
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on September 20, 2019, 21:21:27
This from the U.S. (https://www.voanews.com/usa/trump-renews-threat-dump-fighters-europes-border) ...
Quote
U.S. President Donald Trump on Friday renewed threats to dump captured Islamic State fighters on Europe's doorstep if countries there continue to refuse to take back all their foreign fighters.
 
Trump said he was continuing with plans to draw down forces in Syria, saying the U.S. had done the world a big favor by eliminating the terror group's self-declared caliphate and that it was time for other countries to step up.
 
"We're asking them to take back these prisoners of war," Trump told reporters during a meeting with Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison in the Oval Office at the White House.
 
"They've refused," he added. "And at some point I'm going to have to say, 'I'm sorry, but you're either taking them back or we're going to let them go at your border.' " ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: FJAG on September 20, 2019, 21:39:09
This from the U.S. (https://www.voanews.com/usa/trump-renews-threat-dump-fighters-europes-border) ...

As usual one has simplistic ideas coming from this man. Firstly they aren't Prisoners of War since they were never lawful combatants of a specific nation that is a party to the hostilities. Lawful combatants are entitled to return to the country that essentially recruited and controlled them during the hostilities. That doesn't exist here.

These are, at best, vagabond mercenaries that did not fight for a country but for an ideology and as such are criminals within the country where their crimes took place. Quite frankly Syria or Iraq are the countries with the greatest interest and legal status to try and punish these folks. That's a different problem, however. To try to foist this off on European nations just because these morons were born there or lived there for a while is irrational.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on September 20, 2019, 21:42:23
... To try to foist this off on European nations just because these morons were born there or lived there for a while is irrational.
Not just on European nations (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/powerandpolitics/pompeo-canada-detained-isis-fighters-1.5256590), let's not forget ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on September 24, 2019, 20:31:28
We'll see (http://iswresearch.blogspot.com/2019/09/isis-prepares-for-breakout-in-prisons.html) ...
Quote
Key Takeaway: The Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS) is preparing to free its loyal fighters and followers from prisons and displacement camps across Syria and Iraq. ISIS Emir Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi signaled the start of this campaign in a speech released on September 16, 2019, in which he called on his fighters to liberate prisoners and save women in displacement camps. The Al-Hawl Camp in Northern Syria represents a particular risk. ISIS is already active in Al-Hawl Camp. It has been fundraising in the camp via encrypted channels (such as Telegram) since at least June 2019. It is likely organizing similar activity in other displacement camps in Iraq and Syria.
More @ link
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on September 28, 2019, 15:57:22
Fine - enjoy your current accomodations, then (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canadian-isis-fighters-return-home-1.5297142?fbclid=IwAR3sIpOgP6fLq7Ds8DLStsadSoK5FgGXb2gI42PNzmqar0GLq-se0vvG0lc) ....
Quote
Before he was captured by Syrian Kurdish forces in February, Canadian Mohammed Khalifa went from being a cog in the ranks of ISIS to its English language voice.     

Khalifa, 35, who goes by his ISIS nom de guerre Abu Ridwan, says he would like to return to Canada provided he can bring his non-Canadian wife and their three children.

"This area is no doubt a dangerous area. I'd want to take my family out of there," Abu Ridwan told The Fifth Estate in an interview from a prison in northern Syria.

But if his return means he will likely face justice in a Canadian court, Abu Ridwan said he would rather remain locked up where he is.

"In terms of going back to be judged, then no." ...
Some of his previous material attached (source (https://www.memri.org/tv/canadian-isis-media-operative-abu-ridwan-captured-kurdish-forces-syria-jihad/transcript)).
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 28, 2019, 21:53:20
Quote
Khalifa, 35, who goes by his ISIS nom de guerre Abu Ridwan, says he would like to return to Canada provided he can bring his non-Canadian wife and their three children.

"This area is no doubt a dangerous area. I'd want to take my family out of there," Abu Ridwan told The Fifth Estate in an interview from a prison in northern Syria.

But if his return means he will likely face justice in a Canadian court, Abu Ridwan said he would rather remain locked up where he is.

"In terms of going back to be judged, then no." ...

Why not ask for a few million dollars to help reintegrate into Canadian life while he's at it lol


Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on October 01, 2019, 20:20:44
Australia's take (https://7news.com.au/politics/no-rush-to-repatriate-australians-in-syria-c-482819) ...
Quote
The Morrison government is in no rush to repatriate 66 Australian women and children trapped in the al-Hawl camp in Syria.

The security situation in the camp has dramatically deteriorated in the past 48 hours, with Islamic State supporters opening fire at guards.

The foreign minister says the Australians, most of them under five, are in a complex situation.

"The repatriation of any people in Syria in those contexts at the moment is very, very difficult," Marise Payne told ABC radio on Wednesday.

"It's complicated by the fact the area is highly dangerous and unstable."

Senator Payne said the Australian government would weigh each case individually.

"As far as individuals are concerned and in some cases families, we are assessing each of those cases on their merits, but our first duty is of course to protect Australia and Australians," she said.

"We are talking about people who may have been involved in supporting terrorism, may have fought with terrorists in Syria and Iraq, and that does pose a threat to the safety of Australia and Australians

"I think the Australian population would expect us to make our assessments of each case on its own merits."
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 01, 2019, 21:16:05
Quote
The Morrison government is in no rush to repatriate 66 Australian women and children trapped in the al-Hawl camp in Syria.

The security situation in the camp has dramatically deteriorated in the past 48 hours, with Islamic State supporters opening fire at guards .

ISIS probably just wants their wives and kids back.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on October 04, 2019, 11:01:18
Meanwhile, from U.S. Central Command (source (https://twitter.com/CENTCOM/status/1179853846836908032)) ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on October 04, 2019, 11:04:46
Given the overlap, merged the "Cdn ISIS fighters ID'ed" and "Bringing families back" threads.

Milnet.ca Staff
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Colin P on October 04, 2019, 12:20:33
Find a deserted Island that can sustain life, dump them there, float supplies in once a year and they can have their little caliphate.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on October 04, 2019, 12:35:32
Meanwhile, back in one of the Kurdish-run camps that is in place (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/militant-women-poised-to-take-control-of-isis-camp-syrian-kurdish-general-says/2019/10/04/72985c18-e5ff-11e9-b0a6-3d03721b85ef_story.html) …
Quote
America’s Syrian Kurdish allies are at risk of losing control of the vast camp where the families of the Islamic State’s defeated fighters are being detained as militant women increasingly assert their dominance over the camp, according to the top Kurdish military commander.

Guards at the al-Hol camp in eastern Syria are failing to contain the increasingly violent behavior of some of the residents, and the flimsy perimeter is at risk of being breached unless the international community steps in with more assistance, said the head of the Syrian Democratic Forces, Gen. Mazloum Kobane, who uses a nom de guerre and is known simply as Mazloum.

“There is a serious risk in al-Hol. Right now, our people are able to guard it. But because we lack resources, Daesh are regrouping and reorganizing in the camp,” he said, using the Arab acronym for the Islamic State. “We can’t control them 100 percent, and the situation is grave.”

The al-Hol internment camp in eastern Syria houses around 70,000 people, most of them women and children who were displaced by the war against the Islamic State. A majority of those are ordinary civilians caught up in the fighting who have no relationship to the militants, and over half are children.

But as many as 30,000 are Islamic State loyalists, including the most die-hard radicals who chose to remain in the dwindling caliphate until the final battle for the village of Baghouz earlier this year, Mazloum said in a telephone interview from his headquarters in the Syrian province of Hasakah.

Around 10,000 of those are foreigners from over 40 countries who made the journey to join the Islamic State in Syria, and they are among the most fiercely committed extremists, according to camp officials ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Remius on October 04, 2019, 13:24:02
Find a deserted Island that can sustain life, dump them there, float supplies in once a year and they can have their little caliphate.

Isn't that how they created Australia?

Plenty of islands in the Arctic. 
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Colin P on October 04, 2019, 13:26:23
I was thinking more Pitcairn Island
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Remius on October 04, 2019, 13:44:06
I was thinking more Pitcairn Island


The weather is too nice.  In the Arctic you lose the will to fight due to having to spend your time surviving.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: ModlrMike on October 04, 2019, 13:53:07
They were able to make their way there without our assistance, they can make their own way back. Whatever happens, happens. They should have done better risk analysis.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Colin P on October 04, 2019, 16:42:58
Which I think is the CPC plan of action, if you show up on our border, we arrest you.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on October 04, 2019, 17:12:24
Which I think is the CPC plan of action, if you show up on our border, we arrest you.
I've seen the "we won't lift a finger" quote about Jihadi Jack, but I haven't read that level of detail in the CPC's news releases or media coverage.  Last summer, there was this (https://www.conservative.ca/justin-trudeau-must-bring-justice-to-the-victims-of-isis-conservatives/):
Quote
The Honourable Michelle Rempel, Shadow Minister for Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship, and Pierre Paul-Hus, Shadow Minister for Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, issued a statement calling on Justin Trudeau to bring justice to the victims of ISIS and refer the cases of Canadian ISIS terrorists to the International Criminal Court: “Justin Trudeau’s government has proven itself either unwilling or unable to prosecute Canadian ISIS terrorists. Recently, one Canadian has gone as far as to admit to carrying out executions on behalf of ISIS to the New York Times. He is currently walking the streets of Canada as a free man. “To date, the Liberals have placed more emphasis on providing support like poetry training for Canadian returned ISIS terrorists than swiftly working to bring them to justice. In fact, many measures introduced by the Liberals through bills C-59 and C-75 will potentially weaken punishments for these murders. “The International Criminal Court has the power to prosecute citizens of parties to the Rome Statute. Canada is a party to this statute, and Justin Trudeau should be doing everything in his power to bring justice to the victims of ISIS. Conservatives call on the Prime Minister to refer any known Canadian ISIS terrorists to the International Criminal Court where they can finally be prosecuted for their abhorrent crimes ...
… as well as this at the end of last year (https://www.conservative.ca/liberals-fail-to-bring-isis-terrorists-to-justice/):
Quote
… Conservatives continue to call on Justin Trudeau to implement the following measures:
•Stop Bill C-59, which makes it harder to bring terrorists to justice.
•Focus resources on arresting returning ISIS terrorists instead of misguided attempts at reintegration programs, like poetry lessons.
•Use existing tools to restrict the movement of known terrorists, such as peace bonds.
•Ensure surveillance of returning ISIS terrorists.
•Reform international bodies which are failing to bring ISIS terrorists to justice ...
… but I haven't read any "we will …" statements - as usual, I stand to be corrected.  The "arrest 'em as they arrive" would be how I'd bet a Team Blue government would deal with it, and it would make for very interesting court proceedings based on how complicated it might be.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on October 07, 2019, 08:32:46
Interesting angle to the "One NATO member steps aside while another NATO member vows to take on forces (including some Canadians) fighting ISIS" (https://milnet.ca/forums/index.php/topic,117008.msg1585661.html#msg1585661) story - this from Brit media (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10079824/turkey-invade-northern-syria-isis-imminent-strike/):
Quote
... (Turkish President) Erdogan later vowed he would work with European governments to deal with any foreign ISIS prisoners in the region.

"There are (ISIS prisoners) from France, Germany, other countries. They say 'We don't want to have control over them,'" Mr Erdogan said.

"We can't look after them. What can be done about this? They are going to work on that and I instructed our colleagues to work on that too".

Kurdish leaders have long asked the west for help saying their overstretched army can't repel a Turkish invasion and guard the more than 15,000 captured prisoners the same time ...
Meanwhile, lookit who Brit media says shows up in some recent video from the area (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/inside-jihadi-jacks-hellhole-syrian-20470743) ...
Quote
The parents of 'Jihadi Jack' have spotted him in footage of a Syrian jail and begged for him to be sent back to the UK.

Jack Letts was pictured just days ago lying of the floor of an overcrowded jail in the north of the country.

In the footage he is alongside dozens of fellow Islamic State (IS) prisoners, also in orange jumpsuits, who have been captured by Kurdish militia.

The 23-year-old Muslim convert from Oxfordshire fled to the Middle East to join ISIS and has been stripped of his UK citizenship.

His mother, Sally Lane, spoke to the Mail on Sunday and pleaded for him to be allowed to return and face trial in this country ...
:pop:
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on October 07, 2019, 22:55:06
Think tank's take (http://iswresearch.blogspot.com/2019/10/isiss-campaign-to-escape-detention-in.html) on ISIS/Daesh's push to get fighters outta Syrian camps ...
Quote
Key Takeaway: ISIS has mounted low-level efforts to replenish its ranks from members held in detention facilities and displacement camps across Syria and Iraq since late 2018. Some ISIS members have paid bribes to guards in order to buy their freedom. Others have rioted or mounted small-scale escapes attempts from at least four detention facilities in Syria and Iraq since September 2018. ISIS is likely preparing more coordinated and sophisticated operations to free its detained members in Iraq and Syria. The largest risk likely faces the network of makeshift and undermanned detention facilities spread across Northern Syria ...
More @ link
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Journeyman on October 08, 2019, 08:11:51
….The largest risk likely faces the network of makeshift and undermanned detention facilities spread across Northern Syria ...
I can't imagine Daesh exploiting a Turkish attack on Kurds as a distraction....   :pop:

I'm a fan of the article's source, Institute for the Study of War (http://iswresearch.blogspot.com/);  it's a regular part of my morning coffee, 'overnight traffic' reading (although I haven't gotten there yet since I'm been busy watching Canada getting crushed by RSA  :'( . 

Rumour has it that the Confrence of Defence Associations Institute (https://cdainstitute.ca/) is attempting to get the ISW Director, Kim Kagan, and her husband Fred up to speak at their spring Defence & Security Conference.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on October 08, 2019, 08:19:05
I'm a fan of the article's source, Institute for the Study of War (http://iswresearch.blogspot.com/);  it's a regular part of my morning coffee, 'overnight traffic' reading (although I haven't gotten there yet since I'm been busy watching Canada getting crushed by RSA  :'( . 
I like their material because it's a bit more accessible than some other think-tanky-academic out there.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on October 08, 2019, 21:29:08
I can't imagine Daesh exploiting a Turkish attack on Kurds as a distraction....   :pop:
Funny you should mention that (https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201910091076992690-daesh-suicide-bombers-attack-kurdish-military-positions-in-raqqa-clashes-still-ongoing---sdf/) ...
Quote
According to the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF), at least three Daesh suicide bombers on Wednesday attacked its military positions in Syria's Raqqa ...
Meanwhile, in other news (https://www.cbc.ca/news/somnia-1.5312618) ...
Quote
Canada and other Western countries that have failed to repatriate citizens who fought for the Islamic State and now are detained in northern Syria, may soon face an even deeper conundrum about what to do about them, experts warned Monday.

The Trump administration has signalled it is prepared to stand aside in the event of a Turkish invasion of the region, which would be aimed at dislodging the Syrian Kurdish People's Protection Units (YPG), a U.S. ally in the war against ISIS.

Stark criticism from Republicans in Congress forced U.S. President Donald Trump to temper earlier tweets by saying he would stop Turkey from going too far with an incursion, but the gyrations have created turmoil among policymakers and allies.

Since the fall of ISIS, the Syrian Democratic Forces, led by the YPG, have been holding approximately 11,000 ISIS detainees, including 2,000 foreign fighters, in more than two dozen camps.

There are as many as 32 Canadians (six men, nine women and 17 children)  in two camps in northeastern Syria, according to research by Amarnath Amarasingam, an assistant professor at Queen's University's school of religion, which was published in Policy Options magazine last summer.

In the face of a Turkish military offensive, they could soon be free ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Brihard on October 08, 2019, 21:54:38
We (the collective Western we) have an opportunity to exercise some choice in how it’s gonna suck.

But not choosing is a choice. And either way it’s gonna suck.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on October 08, 2019, 22:18:31
The Aussies (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/oct/08/australia-says-it-wont-risk-more-lives-trying-to-rescue-citizens-from-northern-syria) ...
Quote
The Australian government has no immediate plan to rescue its citizens – including 20 women and more than 40 children – stranded in dangerous and squalid camps in northern Syria, arguing it will not risk more Australian lives trying to get them out.

(...)

The Australian defence minister, Linda Reynolds, said on Tuesday the Australian government was in “close contact” with its allies, including the US, after the shock announcement from Trump that America would be withdrawing its troops from the region as well as support for Kurdish allies, effectively green-lighting a Turkish invasion of northern Syria.

“It is too early yet to speculate on the consequences this might have for Australian policy in the region, as it is a very rapidly evolving new situation,” Reynolds said. “We will continue to monitor and act accordingly when we have more information to hand.” ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Journeyman on October 09, 2019, 09:22:52
Funny you should mention that
  :not-again:  Such prescience wasn't a stretch....

[nor do I have any such skill with lottery numbers]
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on October 09, 2019, 12:18:39
This just in (https://nationalpost.com/news/world/u-s-wont-secure-isis-prisons-if-kurds-leave-to-fight-turkish-invasion) ...
Quote
The U.S. military has no plans to intervene if Syrian Kurdish forces abandon a constellation of Islamic State prisons in Syria to confront a possible Turkish invasion, officials said Tuesday.

Kurdish officials said that guards were still in place at the more than 20 prisons and camps under their control but were prepared to move, raising the possibility that about 11,000 militants and their families could escape.

U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity to describe the evolving U.S. strategy in Syria, said the Pentagon did not have enough forces to oversee the prisons if those facilities were left unguarded, nor a mandate to do so.

The Trump administration has said the responsibility for the militants detained by the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF), the main U.S. partner against the Islamic State in Syria, would fall to the Turkish government if it goes ahead with the incursion ...
... with more on the overall TUR push into SYR in another dedicated thread here (https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,131308.0.html).
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 09, 2019, 13:07:37
To quote a sign I've seen at 2 or 3 Base Clothing counters:

Quote
A lack of planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on our part
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on October 09, 2019, 21:28:59
While the U.S. presses European countries to take their ISIS-ites back, there's this (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/us-military-is-taking-custody-of-two-british-men-accused-of-involvement-in-islamic-state-killings-of-american-hostages/2019/10/09/a5d8971a-e946-11e9-9c6d-436a0df4f31d_story.html) ...
Quote
The U.S. military is taking custody of several dozen high-value Islamic State detainees, including two British men accused of involvement in the militant group’s summary executions of American and other Western hostages. The action is designed to prevent their escape or release from camps in Syria, where they have been guarded by Kurdish forces now under threat from Turkey’s incursion, according to U.S. officials.

The move, a rare instance in which the United States has taken direct responsibility for Islamic State prisoners in Iraq and Syria, comes as U.S. officials scramble to ensure that Ankara’s unfolding military operation does not permit the Islamic State to regain strength.

The roughly 40 individuals being taken into U.S. custody, all considered important Islamic State figures, previously had been held in a constellation of small prisons in northeast Syria, run by Syrian Kurdish forces who have been the Pentagon’s primary partner against the Islamic State in Syria. The Kurds are now pulling guards from those facilities to confront the unfolding Turkish assault ...
More @ link or in attached, shared in accordance with the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Journeyman on October 10, 2019, 09:12:32
….comes as U.S. officials scramble to ensure that Ankara’s unfolding military operation does not permit the Islamic State to regain strength.
Curious how they intend to "ensure" that... while in full Pontius Pilate hand-washing mode.   ::)
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on October 10, 2019, 11:58:45
Which I think is the CPC plan of action, if you show up on our border, we arrest you.
Also, just spotted this looking through for other election campaign info on page 39 of the Liberal platform (https://2019.liberal.ca/wp-content/uploads/sites/292/2019/09/Forward-A-real-plan-for-the-middle-class.pdf) …
Quote
… To better coordinate efforts to prosecute terror suspects to the fullest extent of the law, we will move forward with the creation of a Director of Terrorism Prosecutions. This new office will make sure that Canadians who travel abroad to join terrorist organizations, or who participate in terrorist organizations here at home, are brought to justice ...
Last mention of I could find of this term goes way back to 2010, where it was one of the recommendations of the Air India final report (http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2010/bcp-pco/CP32-89-4-2010-eng.pdf).  It would report to the AG and work with the National Security Advisor & Co., but somewhat differently than the way the Director of Public Prosecutions works:  "A quasi arm’s-length agency like PPSC is, by design, independent from government and, as such, is unsuited to make determinations about the public interest where terrorism cases are involved."  More on the concept from the 2010 report attached.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on October 10, 2019, 14:04:32
Latest on who's taken how many (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-49959338) ...
Quote
With the decision by the United States to withdraw from its positions in northern Syria, and Turkish forces moving in, the fate of thousands of suspected Islamic State detainees remains unclear.

The detainees and their families - held by Kurdish-led forces - include foreigners from various parts of the world.

The US has called on foreign states to repatriate their nationals, accusing European nations of refusing to do so.

So, how many foreign nationals are being held by Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) and have any countries taken them back?

The families of suspected IS militants are being held at a number of camps for displaced people in northern Syria.

By far the largest is at al-Hol. It is housing almost 70,000 people, more than 94% of them women and children, of whom 11,000 are foreign nationals.

Additionally, the SDF says some 12,000 suspected IS fighters are held in seven prisons in north-east Syria, of whom about 4,000 are estimated to be foreigners (that is, neither Syrian nor Iraqi).

A US government report published in August has a lower figure for foreign adult combatants held in northern Syria - 2,000, originating from 50 countries.

Of these, about 800 are from European nations while the rest are from the Middle East, north Africa or Asia.

To put that into context, a study last year by King's College's International Centre for the Study of Radicalisation estimated more than 41,000 foreign nationals had joined IS in Iraq and Syria between April 2013 and June 2018.

Has anyone taken back their nationals?
The United Nations has said countries should take responsibility for their own citizens unless they are to be prosecuted in Syria in accordance with international standards.

Many countries have been reluctant to do so, worried about public opinion and the legal challenges of dealing with citizens who joined IS.

Human Rights Watch has described government-facilitated repatriations of foreign nationals as "piecemeal."

It says more than 1,200 foreign nationals - mainly children - have been repatriated from both Syria and Iraq to Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Russia, Kosovo, and Turkey.

But other nations have taken back only very small numbers:

France: 18 children
US: 16 adults and children
Germany: fewer than 10
Australia: eight children
Sweden: seven children
Norway: five children

In some cases, foreign nationals have been transferred to Iraqi jurisdiction and tried in that country's courts. Earlier this year, four Frenchmen were sentenced to death in Iraq in a judicial process heavily criticised at the time.

Some foreign governments have revoked citizenship to prevent the return of suspected IS members - for example in the case of Shamima Begum, from the UK, who is being held at an SDF-run camp in Syria.

Far larger numbers of foreigners who joined IS are likely to have made their own way home before Kurdish-led forces captured the jihadists' last pocket of territory in March ...
More @ link
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on October 14, 2019, 15:17:50
Latest from Global in the midst of the fracas (https://globalnews.ca/news/6021043/canadian-isis-detainees-women-outnumber-men/) - highlight mine ...
Quote
Sitting in a dim room at a detention camp in northern Syria, Kimberly Polman was feeling vulnerable. ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi had vowed to free female prisoners like herself, and she believed him.

“I take it seriously,” Polman said. “These people don’t play.”

She should know: the former British Columbia resident spent almost four years living under the Islamic State, until she and her husband were taken into custody nine months ago.

Now she is a detainee of the Kurdish forces, one of thousands in their custody because their own governments haven’t taken them back.

But what awaits Polman became even more uncertain this week, when Turkey launched an invasion of northern Syria.

The Turkish offensive shattered the relative calm that Kurdish forces had won six months ago by defeating ISIS and capturing roughly 100,000 fighters and their families.

And with the Kurds now occupied at their northern border, the incursion has created an opening for ISIS, one the terror group has been quick to exploit.

(...)

“We have reached out to Syrian Kurdish officials to seek information on Canadians in their custody and have sought assurances from Turkey that any Canadians detained in the region would be handled in accordance with international law,” said Global Affairs Canada spokesperson Barbara Harvey.

A Muslim convert who travelled to Syria after befriending a man she met online, Polman stands out among the detainees arrested during the final throes of the so-called ISIS caliphate.

She is in her 40s and, unlike many women at the camps, does not wear a black niqab. In an interview, she was regretful and described a “deradicalization project” she was working on.

But Polman is typical in one sense: while the public debate over whether to repatriate Canadian ISIS suspects captured in Syria has focused mostly on the men, they are far outnumbered by women.

During two visits to the region, Global News found few Canadian men at prisons for ISIS detainees. Three identified themselves as Canadian citizens in interviews and another two were confirmed as Canadians. A sixth is detained in Turkey.

But at least 11 Canadian women are believed to be at Al-Hawl and Roj camps, along with almost two dozen children. Another two women are believed to be hiding in the region but have not yet been caught ...
More @ link
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 14, 2019, 16:14:51
Quote
A Muslim convert who travelled to Syria after befriending a man she met online, Polman stands out among the detainees arrested during the final throes of the so-called ISIS caliphate.


Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on October 14, 2019, 16:36:36
My personal, and I admit idiosyncratic and flawed position is:

1. I really wish we could do something about the children. But I don't really know what or how. I'm not even sure what is "best" for them ... except that I think that they cannot be allowed to be with their parents who are either irredeemably evil or stupid...  or both;

2. I want nothing, ever, to be done, that might in any way "help" the adults who decided to go to help Da'esh/ISIL/ISIS. While, morally, I oppose sending Canadian military "his squads" to kill them, I don't care if they die at the hands of anyone else;

3. I don't want any Canadians diplomates or aid workers being put at risk to "help" these evil of stupid (or both) adults; and

4. In the unlikely event that any of them make it home, I want them locked up for a loooooong time ... for being evil or stupid or both.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Halifax Tar on October 14, 2019, 17:05:00
Latest from Global in the midst of the fracas (https://globalnews.ca/news/6021043/canadian-isis-detainees-women-outnumber-men/) - highlight mine ...More @ link

Quote
A Muslim convert who travelled to Syria after befriending a man she met online, Polman stands out among the detainees arrested during the final throes of the so-called ISIS caliphate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimberly_Gwen_Polman

Quote
Ian Austen, one of The New York Times's Canadian correspondents wrote about Polman, after discussing her with Rukmini Callimachi, The New York Times's reporter who first found her, in the refugee camp in Syria.[11] He wrote that Callimachi speculated that she first identified herself as a Canadian to her American captors because she would be treated more leniently, as a Canadian, only to realize that Canadians were "in limbo". Callamachi speculated that Polman started to identify as an American when she realized that while Americans might face prosecution upon repatriation, at least they were being repatriated.

Canadian when convenient ?

Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on October 14, 2019, 20:36:25
Canadian when convenient ?
Sometimes the nature of dual citizenship. Thanks for a bit more of the REST of the story.

A bit more @ the original NY Times article here (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/22/world/canada/canadian-citizens-isis.html).
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on October 17, 2019, 20:45:20
What the Brits might be doing (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/16/uk-shifts-stance-on-helping-british-orphans-escape-syria) ...
Quote
Britain will consider repatriating orphans and unaccompanied children in north-east Syria if they are alerted to their presence by local military or aid agencies.

Home Office officials said the UK would assist British orphans trapped in Syria after the Turkish invasion, reversing a previous policy that children had to be taken out of the country before they might get any help.

Officials would not say exactly how children might be extracted from the country, implying that SAS or other special forces, still understood to be based in the region, could be involved in the repatriations.

They said children thought to be British would be assessed on a case-by-case basis once removed from Syria and only orphans and unaccompanied children would be eligible to be brought back to the UK.

The shift in policy comes after a BBC reporting team found three English-speaking orphans aged 10 or under in a Syria camp over the weekend. The children are believed to have been taken by their parents to live under Islamic State five years ago ...
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on October 19, 2019, 15:37:46
Survey says (https://globalnews.ca/news/6035676/ipsos-poll-detained-isis-fighters/) ...
Quote
A clear majority of Canadians do not want the government to do anything to bring back ISIS fighters detained abroad.

In a poll conducted exclusively for Global News, Ipsos asked respondents whether they supported the position that “a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian, and that Canada should do what it can to bring Canadian nationals home to Canada, even if they’ve been fighting for ISIS.”

Only 29 per cent agreed with the statement.

In contrast, 71 per cent said “we should not do anything to help bring these Canadians back to Canada.” ...
More @ link

From Ipsos (https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/One-Week-from-E-Day-Canadians-Hearing-More-Negativity-About-Candidates-Leaders-than-Policy) (highlights mine) ...
Quote
... Bill C-24 is a law that aims to strip dual citizens of their Canadian passports if they are convicted of crimes of terrorism, treason or espionage against Canada, or take up arms against Canada. This has been specifically debated in the case of Canadian nationals who have fought with ISIS in Syria and wish to return to Canada.

A majority of Canadians appear to be supportive of the proposed law, with seven in ten (71%) saying ‘we should not do anything to help bring these Canadians back to Canada’. Canadians aged 55+ (83%) are most likely to hold this view, followed by those aged 35-54 (70%) and those 18-34 (56%).

By contrast, three in ten (29%) think that ‘a Canadian is a Canadian, and we should help bring these Canadians back.’ This view is significantly more prevalent among those aged 18-34 (44%), compared to those 35-54 (30%) or 55+ (17%). Regionally, Quebecers (39%) are more likely to hold this opinion than residents of any other province.  

These are some of the findings of an Ipsos poll conducted between October 11 and 13, on behalf of Global News. For this survey, a sample of n = 2,204 Canadians aged 18+ was interviewed. A sample of n = 1,504 was interviewed online, via the Ipsos I-Say panel and non-panel sources, and respondents earn a nominal incentive for their participation. A sample of n = 700 Canadians aged 18+ was interviewed by live-interview telephone interviewers by landline and cellphone, using random-digit dialing. Quotas and weighting were employed to balance demographics to ensure that the sample's composition reflects that of the adult population according to Census data and to provide results intended to approximate the sample universe (weighting efficiency = 66.9%). The precision of Ipsos polls which include non-probability sampling is measured using a credibility interval. In this case, the poll is accurate to within ± 2.4 percentage points, 19 times out of 20, had all Canadians been polled. The credibility interval will be wider among subsets of the population. All sample surveys and polls may be subject to other sources of error, including, but not limited to coverage error, and measurement error. Ipsos abides by the disclosure standards established by the CRIC, found here: https://canadianresearchinsightscouncil.ca/standards/
More @ link or in attached.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 20, 2019, 02:13:01

They'll come to kill us': Canadian trapped in Syria pleads to UN for help
Quote
LONDON -- “Dear United Nations...”

The letter was written by hand on paper that was torn from a notebook.It’s dated October 16, 2019, from a detention camp in Northern Syria. The writer is a Canadian, speaking for 10 women, all once married to ISIS fighters. The sky overhead is now crowded with fighter jets and drones.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/beta.ctvnews.ca/national/world/2019/10/18/1_4645332.html


The letter dated 16 October was torn from a book and sent to the UN. Except when you look at the pictures in the news article the letter is still in the book.

So someone took a picture of the letter, sent the letter to the UN then sent pictures of the letters while inside the tent to the media?
Seems a bit odd..
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on October 20, 2019, 08:23:05
So someone took a picture of the letter, sent the letter to the UN then sent pictures of the letters while inside the tent to the media? Seems a bit odd..
A U.N. or other NGO worker in the camp who moves back & forth between the camp & their base area/office/HQ could have lots of chances to hook up to the interwebs, no?  Or once it gets into the U.N. IM system, anybody could share it.
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 20, 2019, 09:30:22
I don't know. I'm not suggesting it's fake, just something about it seems off. Don't you find it even a bit strange?

Saying the letter was written on paper torn from a book and sent to the UN. But it's clearly written while still in the book and photographed and shared online and the story done up and posted 2 days later.  Was it mailed from a post office in the camp? Or maybe the person taking the picture will be carrying the letter to the UN?

If there's a connection to the internet why not send an email instead of trusting a letter to find its way. Or making a video, which would be more personal than a letter. Or pictures of the women?



Edit- mods could I ask that my posts be moved to this thread? I thibk it might be more appropriate?

Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on October 20, 2019, 10:30:38
Edit- mods could I ask that my posts be moved to this thread? I thibk it might be more appropriate?

Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Good idea - done.
Saying the letter was written on paper torn from a book and sent to the UN. But it's clearly written while still in the book and photographed and shared online and the story done up and posted 2 days later.  Was it mailed from a post office in the camp? Or maybe the person taking the picture will be carrying the letter to the UN?

If there's a connection to the internet why not send an email instead of trusting a letter to find its way. Or making a video, which would be more personal than a letter. Or pictures of the women?
Seen.  Do we know the writer had access to the internet?  I suspect the camps themselves may be ... spartan.  With combinations of the internet and workers moving in and out of the camp, there could be a ton of different combinations to get an image of a letter out there.

So far, a very quick Google-fu shows the CTV story's the only place that has those specific images.  I'll keep hunting & share anything, so that _suggests_ they may have come from whatever intermediary straight to CTV.  We know when the story was published, but we don't know who else got images and/or the hard copy beforehand.

And if we really want to peel the onion layers, just because someone wrote 16 Oct on a piece of paper doesn't mean that's when it was written ;)

As for pictures or videos of the women, if the camps are still as ISIS-ridden as some say (https://globalnews.ca/news/6017552/isis-datained-fighters-syria-turkey-kurds-canada/), I wouldn't want to be the one suggesting a selfie in them parts  ;D



Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on October 21, 2019, 20:21:41
A couple of perspectives, this one (https://www.intrepidpodcast.com/blog/2019/10/18/the-five-myths-of-the-isis-repatriation-debate) from academics/analysts who've visited the camps ...
Quote
As we head into the Canadian federal election next week, one of the many pressing issues facing the new government will be the question of what to do with the nearly 40 Canadian men, women, and children currently in Kurdish custody in northeastern Syria.

We visited the camps and the prisons over the course of a week earlier this month, and the challenges we documented were immense and since the invasion by Turkey, those problems are only getting worse. On the day we visited al-Hol camp, which houses most of the Canadian women and their children, Kurdish forces supposedly interrupted a meeting of the “morality police” who were, apparently, getting set to punish one of their fellow women for some sort of religious violation.

The Kurdish police were able to stop the meeting, and arrest some of the women. Upset by these arrests, several women in the camp began, with babies and toddlers in their arms and at their feet, chanting and moving aggressively towards Kurdish police and SDF officers. Kurdish police started firing their weapons into the air to disperse the crowds. We were told it was safer if we left. What happened next is unclear, but the situation clearly escalated with several women killed and injured. It was a vivid illustration of the volatile situation in the camp, one housing over 50,000 children under the age of 12 from over 55 countries. The prisons, housing the male ISIS suspects, is little different.

 What is perhaps most striking is the dichotomy between the realities on the ground and the nature of the policy debate in Canada. We have heard several arguments against repatriation during the many years we have been involved in this debate. We address some of the most widely held myths below:

Myth 1: They Made Their Choice. It is Not Our Problem.

(...)

Myth 2: If They Come Back Here, We Won’t Be Able to Charge Them, and They Will Go Free

(...)

Myth 3: Canada Doesn’t Have the Resources to Deal with Them

(...)

Myth 4: An International Court is the Answer

(...)

Myth 5: It is Too Dangerous for Canada to Send Officials

(...)
... and another broader news piece (https://www.hilltimes.com/2019/10/21/turkish-offensive-should-pressure-feds-to-act-on-repatriation-of-canadian-citizens-in-kurdish-controlled-syrian-isis-detention-camps/219872) quoting several folks:
Quote
n the midst of an uncertain future in northeastern Syria where Turkish forces have been attacking Syrian Kurdish positions for more than a week, some experts say the situation should press Canada to act on repatriating its detained citizens in ISIS detention camps.

Turkey launched its offensive into Syria on Oct. 9 after U.S. President Donald Trump announced American troops would vacate the Turkish-Syrian border area.

Following the onset of the offensive, a Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) commander said that guarding the camps that hold thousands of detained ISIS members as well as some who lived in regions under the control of ISIS would not be a “priority.” In northeastern Syria, the SDF includes the Kurdish People’s Protection Units (YPG) and Women’s Protection Units (YPJ). Turkey views the SDF as being connected to the separatist Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), which is listed as a terrorist entity by the Canadian government.

A five-day ceasefire was negotiated between Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and U.S. Vice-President Mike Pence on Oct. 17. But before the ceasefire was 24 hours old, Kurds accused Turkey of violating the truce. Turkey denied fighting was taking place.

Under the ceasefire agreement, Turkey and the United States would jointly coordinate the ISIS detention camps and the internally displaced people in regions formerly under the control of ISIS.

NBC News reported last week before the ceasefire was reached that SDF guards at one camp that holds 5,000, threatened to leave the camp to go to the front-lines.

“Ironically, the Government of Canada was saying for the last 18 months that it was too dangerous for them to send consular officials into Syria—even as journalists, law enforcement officials from other countries, and researchers were in and out of the country,” said Amarnath Amarasingam, a professor at Queen’s University who is an expert on foreign fighters, in an email to The Hill Times.

“Now, it has kind of become a self-fulfilling prophecy,” he said. Prof. Amarasingam visited a SDF-controlled ISIS detention camp before the Turkish offensive began ...
More @ links
Title: Re: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
Post by: milnews.ca on November 14, 2019, 11:09:06
Interesting approach by Russia (https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/11/14/russia-tests-isis-orphans-dna-ahead-of-repatriation-a68176) ...
Quote
Russia has taken DNA samples from 49 orphans in Syria to confirm their relations to Russian citizens and clear their return home, Russia’s top children’s rights official said Thursday.

Under a program spearheaded by Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov, Russia has worked on returning women and children linked to Russians who fought for the Islamic State in Syria and Iraq. Kadyrov last year called for mass DNA tests in his majority-Muslim region to help repatriate Russian children from the war-torn countries.

Russia was granted access to 49 orphans held in Syrian jails and camps for DNA testing, Interfax cited presidential children’s rights ombudsperson Anna Kuznetsova as saying. Some children are said to be younger than 6 months.

Kuznetsova said that Russian citizens identified as the children’s relatives have also submitted DNA samples to establish family kinship.

An Emergency Situations Ministry flight from neighboring Iraq with 32 Russian children on board is expected soon, Kuznetsova said. The remaining children, she added, will return from Iraq by civilian aircraft.

Meanwhile, the chief of Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB) has warned that adult Islamic State fighters should undergo close vetting by the countries where they’re being held as well as by Russia before being cleared for repatriation ...