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The Quartermaster's Stores => Uniforms => Topic started by: RomeoJuliet on April 19, 2018, 13:47:44

Title: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: RomeoJuliet on April 19, 2018, 13:47:44
I see this soldier on ex in the U.S. wearing a Div patch on cadpat.  Is this just because they are out of Canada or is this now issued to all soldiers in 5 Div? If so, will all divisons be wearing div patches in the future?

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Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: CanadianTire on April 19, 2018, 14:12:32
I believe the idea is that eventually all personnel will wear their div patch on their combats but at this time (at least out here in 3 Div) only flag officers wear the patch. Not sure of the reason why when we all wear it on our DEUs. Incidentally, I have heard there is a move to start wearing qualification badges on combats (only ones worn on the DEUs like airborne, Ranger, etc.).
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: runormal on April 19, 2018, 14:45:24
I've noticed senior officers from both 4 and 2 div wearing it for quite some time now. I didn't ask any questions
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Lerch on April 22, 2018, 13:35:34
I believe the idea is that eventually all personnel will wear their div patch on their combats but at this time (at least out here in 3 Div) only flag officers wear the patch. Not sure of the reason why when we all wear it on our DEUs. Incidentally, I have heard there is a move to start wearing qualification badges on combats (only ones worn on the DEUs like airborne, Ranger, etc.).

When the Army Comd and RSM visited us in Latvia, the RSM was rocking CADPAT wings, so who knows how far that may go in the future.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 22, 2018, 18:53:55
I believe the idea is that eventually all personnel will wear their div patch on their combats but at this time (at least out here in 3 Div) only flag officers wear the patch.

I think you mean General Officers (unless you have some Navy DEU officer commanding 3 Div).

Quote
Not sure of the reason why when we all wear it on our DEUs.

This (IMO) bullshit started about a decade ago, when the new "high vis" ranks came out and the Command Officers and CWOs only wore them under the story "to let the troops get used to them".  That was, and still is, ******* lame.  You'd think that their gorgets and bus driver hats allow them to feel 'special' enough now.  Apparantly not!  I'm not a fan of the 'us and them' dress policies; either the Div wears them on CADPAT, or the Div doesn't.  My Div (an Air Div) has standards of dress that apply to all, with some of the higher rank Officers and CWOs, sometimes, sporting some fancier style of flying suit name tags perhaps.  If the AF can standardize operational dress...

Quote
Incidentally, I have heard there is a move to start wearing qualification badges on combats (only ones worn on the DEUs like airborne, Ranger, etc.).

I know in a few people who are qual'd aircrew who don't do flying anymore; one of them posted to CDA.  He wears his Wings badge on the left shoulder along with the big mo-fo flag.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: PuckChaser on April 22, 2018, 19:42:55
When the Army Comd and RSM visited us in Latvia, the RSM was rocking CADPAT wings, so who knows how far that may go in the future.
2 skill badges max, lower left CADPAT sleeve Velcro. In true Army fashion, being rolled out top to bottom in the CAF to increase morale of the troops. Started getting contacting for the badges and patches set up 3 years ago....
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 22, 2018, 19:46:52
2 skill badges max, lower left CADPAT sleeve Velcro. In true Army fashion, being rolled out top to bottom in the CAF to increase morale of the troops. Started getting contacting for the badges and patches set up 3 years ago....

Is this also on the newer version of the rain jacket as well?  Just curious;  the RCAF and some other CAF formations/units aren't allowing skill badges  on the rain jacket (CJOC is the one other than the RCAF I know of at this time). 
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: PuckChaser on April 22, 2018, 20:28:13
Is this also on the newer version of the rain jacket as well?  Just curious;  the RCAF and some other CAF formations/units aren't allowing skill badges  on the rain jacket (CJOC is the one other than the RCAF I know of at this time).

The only reference to it I had seen was on the tunic, although I can't see why they wouldn't allow it on the newer rain jacket too, as it has the same velcro. Probably why it won't happen though, makes too much sense.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 22, 2018, 20:39:16
The only reference to it I had seen was on the tunic, although I can't see why they wouldn't allow it on the newer rain jacket too, as it has the same velcro. Probably why it won't happen though, makes too much sense.

Yup.  Skill badge;  required on the flying jacket IAW our Div Os and my Wing DIs.  Rain jacket;  not allowed.   :stars:

I tried really hard to keep my older initial style RCAF version rainjacket but the zipper died on me  :'(.  Only think I could attach to it was a rank slip-on. 
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Old EO Tech on April 28, 2018, 14:44:12
People should calm down.  Everyone will eventually wear the Div patches and qualification patches.  But they have to be contracted and manufactured.  What the senior Comd Teams are wearing for Div patches are intern DEU patches with velcro sewn on, they are not the final product.   And I know out in 3 Div this has all been passed down via emails and meetings.  So I'm not sure why serving members are not tracking what is happening.  I myself sent out the minutes of the last dress committee meeting that contained this info.

Jon
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: PuckChaser on April 28, 2018, 14:49:35
And I know out in 3 Div this has all been passed down via emails and meetings.  So I'm not sure why serving members are not tracking what is happening.  I myself sent out the minutes of the last dress committee meeting that contained this info.

So what you're saying is that the Army has an information passage problem where the complete story doesn't get to all the troops? Colour me shocked.  :rofl:
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: daftandbarmy on April 28, 2018, 15:13:35
My Div (an Air Div) has standards of dress that apply to all, with some of the higher rank Officers and CWOs, sometimes, sporting some fancier style of flying suit name tags perhaps.  If the AF can standardize operational dress...

... the Army, which actually represents about 200 different tribes as opposed to the Air Force and Navy's much more efficient 'single tribe each', has no hope at all. :)
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Old EO Tech on April 28, 2018, 15:28:48
So what you're saying is that the Army has an information passage problem where the complete story doesn't get to all the troops? Colour me shocked.  :rofl:

Shocking I know....but it is not completely unsolvable :-/

Jon
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Dimsum on April 28, 2018, 19:05:19
... the Army, which actually represents about 200 different tribes as opposed to the Air Force and Navy's much more efficient 'single tribe each', has no hope at all. :)

Incorrect.  Everyone knows there's an "east coast Navy" and a "west coast Navy".   :nod:

Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Pusser on April 30, 2018, 15:26:10
Incorrect.  Everyone knows there's an "east coast Navy" and a "west coast Navy".   :nod:

Don't forget NAVRES - they hate it when we leave them out...
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: dapaterson on April 30, 2018, 16:45:22
Don't forget NAVRES - they hate it when we leave them out...
So, if a sailor is posted to an Army unit, do they sew a Div patch on their NCDs?
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Rheostatic on April 30, 2018, 17:07:38
So, if a sailor is posted to an Army unit, do they sew a Div patch on their NCDs?
No, formation patches are only for the Army service and operational uniforms (according to the Dress Instruction). They would put up an Army command badge, though.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: dapaterson on April 30, 2018, 17:08:09
No, formation patches are only for the Army service uniform (according to the Dress Instruction). They would put up an Army command badge, though.
Wait for it...
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: NFLD Sapper on April 30, 2018, 17:16:01
Wait for it...

Don't give ideas to the "good idea" fairy....
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Rheostatic on April 30, 2018, 17:16:51
Wait for it...
Well I guess nothing would surprise me at this point.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: dapaterson on April 30, 2018, 17:17:09
I say we go all the way: MPRR embroidered on the back of the uniform.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: CanadianTire on April 30, 2018, 19:15:32
2 skill badges max, lower left CADPAT sleeve Velcro. In true Army fashion, being rolled out top to bottom in the CAF to increase morale of the troops. Started getting contacting for the badges and patches set up 3 years ago....

We had some Scottish cadets visit us last year and they were allowed to wear their qualification badges on their Velcro...and some of these kids had so many that they couldn't actually fit the whole badge on their pocket. Half of it was just up against the fabric. It looked pretty bad.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 30, 2018, 19:49:51
So, if a sailor is posted to an Army unit, do they sew a Div patch on their NCDs?

Would it look as ...*professional*... as CADPAT slip-ons on the ncd jacket?  Then...it'll likely happen!   8)
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: tree hugger on November 23, 2018, 08:23:03
The other day I saw a picture of navy recruits in CADPAT but instead of the Canadian Flag on the left shoulder, they had the Naval Ensign.
Is this a thing? 

I'm navy, wear CADPAT and have the Canadian Flag on my shoulder.  Is there a reg/policy I'm missing?
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Pusser on November 23, 2018, 10:59:29
The other day I saw a picture of navy recruits in CADPAT but instead of the Canadian Flag on the left shoulder, they had the Naval Ensign.
Is this a thing? 

I'm navy, wear CADPAT and have the Canadian Flag on my shoulder.  Is there a reg/policy I'm missing?

I'm all for it!  Since the naval ensign includes the national flag, I see no reason to wear both.  The current interim arrangement with NCDs where we wear both a small national flag and a big ensign on the same sleeve seems odd and redundant to me.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: NFLD Sapper on November 23, 2018, 11:13:21
I know for Army (CADPAT) it will be:

Left shoulder:
Canada Flag and up to 2 Specialty Badges

Right shoulder:
Divisional Patch and Brigade Patch.

Army policy that addresses CADPAT uniform wear rolls out (https://www.facebook.com/notes/canadian-army/army-policy-that-addresses-cadpat-uniform-wear-rolls-out/1867600959998540/)
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: PuckChaser on November 23, 2018, 11:16:19
Probably NAVRES BMQ? I've never seen the Ensign on CADPAT, only thought it was supposed to be on NCDs as one of the 18 things that say Navy so people don't forget.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: CanadianTire on November 27, 2018, 13:36:16
We recently received our manufactured DIV patches for combats. They are NOT simply the DEU div patches backed with Velcro. No, we had to go all-out for these ones...they are the dimensions of the large Canadian flag patch, but the div colour is smaller and bordered on all four sides by CADPAT. So if/when we make the switch to another camo pattern, these will all have to be turned in and new ones will have to be issued.

I haven't received one yet, so I don't have a photo of one.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Remius on November 27, 2018, 13:47:14
Seen it here.

Looks like hot garbage.  especially the brigade patch.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: dangerboy on November 27, 2018, 13:48:38
We recently received our manufactured DIV patches for combats. They are NOT simply the DEU div patches backed with Velcro. No, we had to go all-out for these ones...they are the dimensions of the large Canadian flag patch, but the div colour is smaller and bordered on all four sides by CADPAT. So if/when we make the switch to another camo pattern, these will all have to be turned in and new ones will have to be issued.

I haven't received one yet, so I don't have a photo of one.

Here is a DWAN link to a document that shows the patches http://materiel.mil.ca/assets/MAT_Intranet/docs/en/joint-common-clothing-small-arms/garrison-bridage-patches.pdf (http://materiel.mil.ca/assets/MAT_Intranet/docs/en/joint-common-clothing-small-arms/garrison-bridage-patches.pdf)
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: sidemount on November 27, 2018, 15:02:40
Canex sells them, plus all the other authorized patches.

http://www.canex.ca/military/cadpat-gear/4th-cdn-division-badge.html
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Max Power on November 27, 2018, 15:24:13
$9!! No thanks.  When they want me to wear it, they'll get around to issuing it.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Lumber on November 27, 2018, 15:28:28
Why didn't they just make it without the cadpat border?
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: MCG on November 27, 2018, 16:05:28
$9!! No thanks.  When they want me to wear it, they'll get around to issuing it.
I find it disappointing that we have been able to create the opportunity for soldiers to give money to Canex faster than we were able to distribute the same product to which they are entitled at crown expense.

In other thoughts: since the Bde patches are always worn together on the same spot of Velcro, why are they not produced as one piece?  And if we are going all authentic, should members of the Div HQ not be wearing a smaller white rectangle superimposed across the centre of the coloured div rectangle?
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 27, 2018, 17:41:06
I find it disappointing that we have been able to create the opportunity for soldiers to give money to Canex faster than we were able to distribute the same product to which they are entitled at crown expense.

In other thoughts: since the Bde patches are always worn together on the same spot of Velcro, why are they not produced as one piece?  And if we are going all authentic, should members of the Div HQ not be wearing a smaller white rectangle superimposed across the centre of the coloured div rectangle?

And should we not also be producing and issuing white flag patches to our enemies? ;)
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Dimsum on November 27, 2018, 17:58:11
Why didn't they just make it without the cadpat border?

Obviously to cash in on those who'll have to buy new patches if/when we switch patterns  :nod:
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Eagle Eye View on November 27, 2018, 19:09:39
Sadly the CA is not the only element switching patches very 5 years. From the brief we got, the RCAF is reverting back to the “only green” patches for the flight suits. The Div order should be release shortly. Here’s to another $40 of patches for the uniform.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: sidemount on November 27, 2018, 19:25:37
How about the RCAF to go back to a rank style that actually has stitching that can be recognized from more than a foot away.
They are more tactical than the Army's high vis that you can read from a km out.

I'm happy to still cling on to some old style combats that don't have the velcro on the sleeves.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: dapaterson on November 27, 2018, 20:22:10
The Army paid untold millions to develop an effective camouflage system, then paid thousands to make a set of ranks that would be visible on that camouflage.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Infanteer on November 27, 2018, 20:42:35
...which doesn't really matter because you wear body armour over that rank patch anyways.... :D
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: sidemount on November 27, 2018, 20:50:07
Until we start wearing velcro rank on on the sleeves while in the field
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Dimsum on November 27, 2018, 20:51:33
Sadly the CA is not the only element switching patches very 5 years. From the brief we got, the RCAF is reverting back to the “only green” patches for the flight suits. The Div order should be release shortly. Here’s to another $40 of patches for the uniform.

FFS, what's the reason this time?  We take them off when we go somewhere even potentially bad.  Do people not understand the point of velcro?
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 27, 2018, 20:56:32
FFS, what's the reason this time?  We take them off when we go somewhere even potentially bad.  Do people not understand the point of velcro?

New Comdr and new Comd CWO...don't throw your current ones out, because in 2 years.... ;D
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Dimsum on November 27, 2018, 21:57:10
New Comdr and new Comd CWO...don't throw your current ones out, because in 2 years.... ;D

...I'll be posted?   ;)
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: medicineman on November 27, 2018, 22:53:25
So many stupid people, not enough live ammo...because of stupid people spending money on stupid ideas.  On the bright side, nobody can shoot hte stupid people, since there isn't any live ammo.

MM





Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 27, 2018, 23:25:45
So many stupid people, not enough live ammo...because of stupid people spending money on stupid ideas.  On the bright side, nobody can shoot hte stupid people, since there isn't any live ammo.

MM

Nice. You're bucking for 'Yossarian' right there :)

"They have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing." Joseph Heller
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: FSTO on November 28, 2018, 06:46:29
Probably NAVRES BMQ? I've never seen the Ensign on CADPAT, only thought it was supposed to be on NCDs as one of the 18 things that say Navy so people don't forget.

Funny because it's true. :facepalm:
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: CountDC on November 28, 2018, 17:12:33
The other day I saw a picture of navy recruits in CADPAT but instead of the Canadian Flag on the left shoulder, they had the Naval Ensign.
Is this a thing? 

I'm navy, wear CADPAT and have the Canadian Flag on my shoulder.  Is there a reg/policy I'm missing?

Maybe, depending on where you work and your job, this canforgen:   http://vcds.mil.ca/apps/canforgens/default-eng.asp?id=198-09&type=canforgen

ACCORDINGLY, CF MEMBERS ENTITLED TO THE NAVAL DISTINCTIVE ENVIRONMENTAL UNIFORM (DEU) ARE HEREBY DIRECTED TO WEAR NAVAL COMBAT DRESS (NCD) IN LIEU OF CADPAT, WHERE THE CADPAT IS PERMITTED BY COMDS AND CO S AS THE DRESS OF THE DAY. EXCEPTIONS TO THIS CANFORGEN ARE PERMITTED FOR VALID OPERATIONAL REASONS ONLY, INCL EMPL IN ACTUAL FIELD OPS, FIELD TRG ACTIVITIES OR OTHER APPROVED TRG SITUATIONS

Working at an army unit in an office does not qualify as valid reason despite the attempts to have me wear cadpat. 
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: tree hugger on November 29, 2018, 10:25:50
Maybe, depending on where you work and your job, this canforgen:   http://vcds.mil.ca/apps/canforgens/default-eng.asp?id=198-09&type=canforgen

ACCORDINGLY, CF MEMBERS ENTITLED TO THE NAVAL DISTINCTIVE ENVIRONMENTAL UNIFORM (DEU) ARE HEREBY DIRECTED TO WEAR NAVAL COMBAT DRESS (NCD) IN LIEU OF CADPAT, WHERE THE CADPAT IS PERMITTED BY COMDS AND CO S AS THE DRESS OF THE DAY. EXCEPTIONS TO THIS CANFORGEN ARE PERMITTED FOR VALID OPERATIONAL REASONS ONLY, INCL EMPL IN ACTUAL FIELD OPS, FIELD TRG ACTIVITIES OR OTHER APPROVED TRG SITUATIONS

Working at an army unit in an office does not qualify as valid reason despite the attempts to have me wear cadpat. 

Don't think you see the mental picture - my confusion wasn't CADPAT vice NCDs - it was the face the pers in the image were CADPAT with naval ensign in lieu of the Canadian Flag.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: CountDC on November 29, 2018, 13:44:07
got that but also noted you are navy wearing cadpat which in the majority of cases (high 90%) that I see this the navy person is supposed to wear NCDs.  I worry more about the fact that we have mbrs wearing completely wrong uniforms rather than ensign versus flag.

Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: OceanBonfire on November 29, 2018, 16:16:37
Probably NAVRES BMQ? I've never seen the Ensign on CADPAT, only thought it was supposed to be on NCDs as one of the 18 things that say Navy so people don't forget.

Operation UNIFIER:

https://www.facebook.com/CAFinUkraine/photos/a.1323337024435027/1585991111502949/?type=3&theater

https://twitter.com/CAFinUkraine/status/1065245819174117378

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FuRb7O7y.jpg&hash=90d55d47786588b637de819abc0c2254)
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: DetectiveMcNulty on November 29, 2018, 17:10:12
Are those snowflakes landing on the CADPAT? Or giant flakes of dandruff?

Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 29, 2018, 17:55:57
Operation UNIFIER:

https://www.facebook.com/CAFinUkraine/photos/a.1323337024435027/1585991111502949/?type=3&theater

https://twitter.com/CAFinUkraine/status/1065245819174117378

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FuRb7O7y.jpg&hash=90d55d47786588b637de819abc0c2254)

OMFG.

We have clearly bypassed the surface area of an identification symbol that can be described as 'patch' and gone straight to 'billboard'.  :rofl:
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: sidemount on November 29, 2018, 23:15:52
Unless the pic is flipped, it doesnt look like the Canada flag is being replaced as it is worn on the left side...it looks like this is being worn in lieu of a div patch.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: PuckChaser on November 29, 2018, 23:22:13
Unless the pic is flipped, it doesnt look like the Canada flag is being replaced as it is worn on the left side...it looks like this is being worn in lieu of a brigade patch.

Yeah its a different scenario from what was originally posted. That position is actually in lieu of a division patch. The brigade patch would go where the UNIFIER patch is.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: sidemount on November 29, 2018, 23:27:10
Yup my mistake, edited my post to read div patch instead of brigade.

So Navy pers wearing the ensign as opposed to a div patch seems reasonable (as reasonable as all the patch business is).
Is there a pic where it is actually taking the place of the Canada flag?
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: PuckChaser on November 29, 2018, 23:49:30
I don't think its reasonable. If you're wearing CADPAT it should be with a red and white Canadian flag unless a theatre standing order indicates another specific one for operational reasons (IE the IR flags in Afghanistan). If whoever is doing this thinks CADPAT isn't "Navy" enough, they should be wearing NCDs and can throw the Ensign on there all they want in accordance with RCN dress regs.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: sidemount on November 30, 2018, 18:47:19
The Canadian Flag is on the Left side so they aren't just ditching the Canadian Flag. If Navy Pers are in CADPAT, why not have the Ensign in place of the Div patch. If we are going all "patchy" what difference does it make.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: OceanBonfire on December 24, 2018, 14:28:09
https://www.facebook.com/CAFOperations/posts/2389200164440618?__tn__=-R

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FhV9oyhE.jpg&hash=978daf084a67cea7c2c631cbbce49041)

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FI9GehyX.jpg&hash=685c6901b401089a1fec2fcd8663dbeb)

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F7kqbVAZ.jpg&hash=b201066dd4c667fa7503f6c1b024434a)
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Dimsum on December 27, 2018, 22:50:44
My question about those pics is why the 2 Army folks (with the crossed swords next to the nametape) are also wearing the RCN ensign?  Does everyone working on an RCN mission wear it on operational uniform?
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 27, 2018, 23:08:49
It also looks like they're all wearing the rank in black thread slip-ons ???
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: SupersonicMax on December 27, 2018, 23:53:26
So much debate on dress (and dress minutia of all!).
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 28, 2018, 00:12:26
So much debate on dress (and dress minutia of all!).

What do you consider dress minutia?
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Dimsum on December 28, 2018, 01:05:14
So much debate on dress (and dress minutia of all!).

Meh, I was just curious.  I think having rank slides and nametapes that you can read more than 0.5cm away is a good idea. 

The 'Roo inside the Maple Leaf on their ball caps is a nice touch.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: SupersonicMax on December 28, 2018, 01:12:34
What do you consider dress minutia?

Ensign vs flag
Color of patches
Wearing NCDs for Navy folks on Army/Air Force bases

None of which affect the outcome of a task/mission.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 28, 2018, 10:10:15
Agreed, we've gone a little overboard with it.  At my level, I don't get to decide it, just police and enforce it.  There seems to be an appetite for flashy things and/or patches and overdoing the "unique appearance" in both service dress and operational dress.  It seems to be the 'in thing', and not just in the CAF.

Regardless of how 'overdone' our current operational dress is, we (Officers, Warrant/Petty Officers, Snr and Jnr NCOs) still have a duty to know, police and enforce the direction from higher and to set a high standard for those we lead to follow.  Funny, though, the worst I've seen the patch police out since going AF was IMPACT ROTO 0 and...according to my Det HQ it was a fairly big focus of the ATF-I Commander.  Wasn't he a fighter guy?   8) 

*IF YOU WEAR YOUR SQN HERALDIC CREST OR PET THE CATS...ISIS WINS!!!*

Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 28, 2018, 10:19:40
Meh, I was just curious.  I think having rank slides and nametapes that you can read more than 0.5cm away is a good idea.

Maybe they couldn't get the 'right' ones from Clothing Stores and bought their own.  I've seen that happen before when Supply couldn't get CADPAT or flight suit nametags/badges;  there was 'no contract' in place or something.

Quote
The 'Roo inside the Maple Leaf on their ball caps is a nice touch.

yup!

Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: daftandbarmy on December 29, 2018, 02:57:37
As far as the Infantry is concerned, it should all come off before any kind of recce/ fighting patrol anyways  :nod:
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Haggis on December 29, 2018, 12:17:25
As far as the Infantry is concerned, it should all come off before any kind of recce/ fighting patrol anyways  :nod:

To ensure OPSEC, each patrol will have a rear party of one soldier who collects the bling at the FLOT and returns it when the patrol RTBs. 
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Good2Golf on December 29, 2018, 14:51:25
I like how the Army bubba has his sleeves rolled down in the Persian Gulf. Good lad for following the regulations directives. :salute:
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: PMedMoe on December 29, 2018, 15:28:30
I like how the Army bubba has his sleeves rolled down in the Persian Gulf. Good lad for following the regulations directives. :salute:

Speaking of sleeve rolling, the rest could sure use a lesson on it....   ::)

 ;)
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: MJP on December 29, 2018, 15:32:49
Speaking of sleeve rolling, the rest could sure use a lesson on it....   ::)

 ;)
The new combats are junk for rolling sleeves, although why someone would want a wet ball of fabric sitting on their arms is beyond me anyway.  Not t mention sleeves down is a much better way to deal with the sun, pests and other occupational hazards!
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Dimsum on December 29, 2018, 16:01:22
Speaking of sleeve rolling, the rest could sure use a lesson on it....   ::)

 ;)

You can't cover the patches!   :tsktsk:
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: PMedMoe on December 29, 2018, 16:05:13
Not t mention sleeves down is a much better way to deal with the sun, pests and other occupational hazards!

This is true.

You can't cover the patches!   :tsktsk:

Once again, can I say how glad I am to be out?   :whistle:
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Blackadder1916 on December 29, 2018, 16:36:04
  Not t mention sleeves down is a much better way to deal with the sun, pests and other occupational hazards!

But if you put the sleeves down how are you going to get a great "farmer's tan"?
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Dimsum on December 29, 2018, 16:58:31
But if you put the sleeves down how are you going to get a great "farmer's tan"?

Wait, that's what people *want* these days?

Millennials, I tell ya.   :rofl:
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: FSTO on December 29, 2018, 17:19:52
Wait, that's what people *want* these days?

Millennials, I tell ya.   :rofl:

Heaven forbid they actually went outside and did some actual work to get the sunburned arms.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Journeyman on December 30, 2018, 09:10:13
But if you put the sleeves down how are you going to get a great "farmer's tan"?
Leaders set the example;  the farmer's tan starts at mid-forearm... if you're cool.   :nod:
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: FSTO on December 30, 2018, 09:31:26
Leaders set the example;  the farmer's tan starts at mid-forearm... if you're cool.   :nod:

My late father who was an actual farmer rocked the best tan. I still remember the one time I saw him at our local beach wearing a swimsuit. From just above the elbow to his finger tips the tan was a very very dark brown. Same with the face as the tan started about an inch from the top of the eye brows. On the other hand, his torso, legs and forehead were so white he reflected the sunlight!
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: dapaterson on December 30, 2018, 12:48:37
AKA CFSME students at Earthquake Annie's in the '90s.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: daftandbarmy on December 31, 2018, 18:20:03
Since we're on the subject of sleeve rolling.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkLrahyKxA8
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: OceanBonfire on February 01, 2019, 16:29:15
The Canadian Flag is on the Left side so they aren't just ditching the Canadian Flag. If Navy Pers are in CADPAT, why not have the Ensign in place of the Div patch. If we are going all "patchy" what difference does it make.

Some with the Canada flag on the right side/arm as shown in this picture:

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FXa7SNJF.jpg&hash=eea6df8f5247a830f5b6ec028ff9d164)

Quote
https://www.facebook.com/CAFOperations/photos/pcb.2447161661977801/2447160965311204
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: sidemount on February 01, 2019, 19:48:21
I've seen so many different variations since my post back in Nov that I really don't know what to make of it anymore.
Standardization seems to be right out the window, but I guess that doesn't matter these days.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 02, 2019, 12:27:55
For the RCAF folks, if you didn't know you should hear that the CADO (1-106) has been released for how things will be worn.  Looks like it made sense to me.  The 4 x 2 Cdn flag will only be worn on the left side, that includes the ECU, CCR (raingear)...not sure if the other environments and commands are adopting the same standard.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Dimsum on February 02, 2019, 17:32:37
For the RCAF folks, if you didn't know you should hear that the CADO (1-106) has been released for how things will be worn.  Looks like it made sense to me.  The 4 x 2 Cdn flag will only be worn on the left side, that includes the ECU, CCR (raingear)...not sure if the other environments and commands are adopting the same standard.

Is that the one that authorized, then de-authorized, the wings on sleeves of new CADPAT?
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 02, 2019, 19:24:26
Is that the one that authorized, then de-authorized, the wings on sleeves of new CADPAT?

Nope, they are authorized on both the ECU and the CCR (Converged CADPAT raingear).  The patches auth on the raingear are the exact same as those on the newer CADPAT (ECU), which is para 18 of the CADO.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: OceanBonfire on February 03, 2019, 23:17:14
Air Force personnel with the flag on the right side:

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FSqrd9VD.jpg&hash=cc58a8df77bc6770ab2d0ab4581f759e)

Quote
https://www.stripes.com/news/canadian-troops-in-bahrain-bust-drug-runners-on-the-hash-highway-1.566363
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: daftandbarmy on February 03, 2019, 23:20:16
Air Force personnel with the flag on the right side:

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FSqrd9VD.jpg&hash=cc58a8df77bc6770ab2d0ab4581f759e)

That's OK. They're in the Middle East where, you know, they read Arabic from right to left :)
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: CanadianTire on February 04, 2019, 13:25:01
Maybe they think they're still in KAF? Or they forgot their IFF?

Although technically they do have the flag on the left...

Air Force personnel with the flag on the right side:

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FSqrd9VD.jpg&hash=cc58a8df77bc6770ab2d0ab4581f759e)
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 04, 2019, 18:13:42
Air Force personnel with the flag on the right side:


CJOC has...different DIs than the RCAF.  I wasn't allowed to wear my Heraldic crest when I was cut over to CJOC; it's not an optional badge in the CADO IIRC.

Then there's that Ch 1, Para 8 stuff from CFP 265... :whistle:

 8)
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 08, 2019, 02:42:06
removed my post.  Sorry for the speed wobble that had nothing to do with Div Patches on CADPAT.

EITS
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: FSTO on February 08, 2019, 08:43:17
Ok, I'll just leave this one here...https://www.facebook.com/saceur/photos/a.1691482787768602/2189059468010929/?type=3&theater

So the stars are for the Americans to know he's a Major General? They can't figure that out with the two leaves?  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 08, 2019, 10:07:10
removed my post.  Sorry for the speed wobble that had nothing to do with Div Patches on CADPAT.

EITS
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Pusser on February 08, 2019, 10:50:54
Ok, I'll just leave this one here...https://www.facebook.com/saceur/photos/a.1691482787768602/2189059468010929/?type=3&theater

Absolutely disgraceful.  Not only is it insulting for the CAF to be "Americanizing" it's uniform, it also doesn't say much about the intelligence of our allies, that they can't figure out other nations' rank insignia.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: daftandbarmy on February 08, 2019, 11:23:01
Absolutely disgraceful.  Not only is it insulting for the CAF to be "Americanizing" it's uniform, it also doesn't say much about the intelligence of our allies, that they can't figure out other nations' rank insignia.

When we hide in the elephant's shadow, we shouldn't be surprised when we can't see the light. :)
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Dimsum on February 08, 2019, 14:06:02
Absolutely disgraceful.  Not only is it insulting for the CAF to be "Americanizing" it's uniform, it also doesn't say much about the intelligence of our allies, that they can't figure out other nations' rank insignia.

In true Canadian fashion, we probably took that idea off the Brits who did it in Desert Storm (I think).
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Old Sweat on February 08, 2019, 14:20:36
In true Canadian fashion, we probably took that idea off the Brits who did it in Desert Storm (I think).

I believe 13 Brigade wore both Canadian and American badges of rank in the Aleutian campaign in 1943.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: CanadianTire on February 08, 2019, 14:31:02
Back to the issue of Div patches, I noticed that CP Gear now offers wool DEU Div patches (meaning no CADPAT, just the div colour patch) and the default is to have them Velcro back. While this makes sense to me, I wonder how long before someone gets in trouble for wearing that on combats?

http://www.cpgear.com/create_products/Division-Patches-Wool-?c=5024397&dp=2&n=83303857 (http://www.cpgear.com/create_products/Division-Patches-Wool-?c=5024397&dp=2&n=83303857)
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Good2Golf on February 08, 2019, 16:16:48
EITS, in your haste to point out the oppression of the proletariat, you forgot to highlight Para 6 in your extract from the 265...you know, the part where Gen Vance authorizes LGen Rouleau (a Commander of a Command) to apply a policy as operationally appropriate, whereby CAF elements are appropriately identifiable in an operational (coalition in this case) environment. People can get all hot under the collar and insinuate that MGen Fortin is just making s*** up, but you’ll probably see such policy-compliant (Para 6 and Section 5-D-2 again) accommodation in coalition environments to aid others to clearly understand positional/rank structure. Just because MGen Fortin has the same number of leaves on his slip-on doesn’t mean that coalition members understand a Leaf and a star has a direct 1:1 mapping (although leaves are more intuitive to a wide coalition audience than swords, crowns and pips were.  I do hope you get the opportunity in a theatre town hall or the like to state your discontent of his application of the CFP265 to LGen Rouleau.

:2c:

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: LunchMeat on February 08, 2019, 16:50:47
EITS, in your haste to point out the oppression of the proletariat, you forgot to highlight Para 6 in your extract from the 265...you know, the part where Gen Vance authorizes LGen Rouleau (a Commander of a Command) to apply a policy as operationally appropriate, whereby CAF elements are appropriately identifiable in an operational (coalition in this case) environment. People can get all hot under the collar and insinuate that MGen Fortin is just making s*** up, but you’ll probably see such policy-compliant (Para 6 and Section 5-D-2 again) accommodation in coalition environments to aid others to clearly understand positional/rank structure. Just because MGen Fortin has the same number of leaves on his slip-on doesn’t mean that coalition members understand a Leaf and a star has a direct 1:1 mapping (although leaves are more intuitive to a wide coalition audience than swords, crowns and pips were.  I do hope you get the opportunity in a theatre town hall or the like to state your discontent of his application of the CFP265 to LGen Rouleau.

:2c:

Regards
G2G

I was going to say something along the lines of "Bro, chill" but you did it much better.



The black on tan is the new deal as a High Vis system for the Arid uniforms. They are available for all ranks and elements. You can see everyone involved with CTF150 in Bahrain wearing them, from Corporal to Commodore. However, just like the initial rollout of the Army High Vis rank and nametapes, there is not enough to go around for everyone.

Additionally, that photo ETIS posted of the RCAF Commander and his Chief giving the Door Gunner badge, they were coming from Canada, wearing whatever they had issued to them. Comd RCAF had lost his luggage and borrowed a uniform on the ground. There were no rank insignia or nametapes available to him.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Good2Golf on February 08, 2019, 17:09:01
...Additionally, that photo ETIS posted of the RCAF Commander and his Chief giving the Door Gunner badge, they were coming from Canada, wearing whatever they had issued to them. Comd RCAF had lost his luggage and borrowed a uniform on the ground. There were no rank insignia or nametapes available to him.

Absolutely, LM! Comd RCAF and I went through basic training together a few years ago...you won’t find a “straighter arrow” in the whole CAF than LGen Meinzinger.  That said, I bet you his ADC will always have a back-up set of name tag and slip-on from now on. ;)

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 08, 2019, 19:10:57
removed my post.  Sorry for the speed wobble that had nothing to do with Div Patches on CADPAT.

EITS
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Good2Golf on February 08, 2019, 19:24:50
Since the CFP-265 is widely regarded as the most kept-up-to-date document in the CAF, you must be right that LGen Rouleau has no authority.  This is indeed a travesty and really should be a key item for the CDS’ daily OGp, leaving lesser important issues such as Departmental responses to ATIP requests and recruiting and retention to be addressed at a later date.

[/sarc]

G2G
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 08, 2019, 19:29:40
removed my post.  Sorry for the speed wobble that had nothing to do with Div Patches on CADPAT.

EITS

Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: OceanBonfire on February 08, 2019, 19:38:20
...

So...why the sudden need for US Army stars?  ...

We've been doing it for a while:

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FSqoN8bo.jpg&hash=b5846ba7cc925971c55ea575520e30f4)

Quote
https://www.army.mil/article/41733/canadian_general_bids_adieu_to_fort_bragg
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: daftandbarmy on February 08, 2019, 19:43:37
We've been doing it for a while:

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FSqoN8bo.jpg&hash=b5846ba7cc925971c55ea575520e30f4)

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo    :facepalm:
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Good2Golf on February 08, 2019, 19:48:20
...I don't care so much about the dress instructions...I DO care greatly about  (1) standards that only apply to some, but it only being the rank and file are held accountable it when they color outside the lines.

Just not enough by your own admission/explanation to speak Truth to Power to someone you believe to be complicit in perpetuating the problem?

???

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 08, 2019, 20:13:02
removed my post.  Sorry for the speed wobble that had nothing to do with Div Patches on CADPAT.

EITS
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: OceanBonfire on February 08, 2019, 20:26:35
At least for 9 years.   :nod:

hey, I know someone who has been smoking dope while serving for 10 years before WEEDFORGEN.  I guess, because they've been doing it for so long, that just makes it ok?  Or was there some kind of...regulation or instruction...hmmmm.

I meant that it wasn't suddenly recent as of just now, but as to why then the easiest assumption would be for American troops to easily figure it out as your experience showed it.

People mocking of others not figuring out ranks should have a look at the NATO ranks equivalency and I would like to see them easily figure out a rank.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 08, 2019, 20:41:51
removed my post.  Sorry for the speed wobble that had nothing to do with Div Patches on CADPAT.

EITS
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: LunchMeat on February 08, 2019, 20:45:59
Would you say that if you were, technically, out of dress for a parade or something, or one of your troops was and for that 'bro, chill' level offence, getting extra's or RMs or a UDI for doing the same sort of things and it was caught in a pic on social media?  I've said it before, I'll say it again;  I don't get to decide what things I enforce and which ones I don't.  I get to use some common sense sometimes on the application...that's it.  I advise the Officers I work with at my level; that level isn't GOFOs.  I enforce the orders on everything including dress on my subordinates because its part of my job.  It's really that black and white.

If the dress regs are 'relaxed', then it should be for everyone.  Full stop.

I was on parade for my Sqn CofC last year, and the Wing CofC the year before that.  I can imagine the conversations with my SCWO if I would have showed up on parade day in Air Force 1As with my beret on.  I don't care so much about the dress instructions...I DO care greatly about  (1) standards that only apply to some, but it only being the rank and file are held accountable it when they color outside the lines.  I've seen it too many times.  Rank has it privileges, I get that too.  It also has it's responsibilities;  one of them being 'lead by example'.

I wore a "battle badge" with my name, rank, allergies etc. In English and Arabic and my rank equivalent to US and Iraqi counterparts as a lowly MCpl, does that help settle things?

I also wore Danish Army rank while on exchange with them.

I also wore an unauthorized uniform of Tac Hel Pants and Hybrid Combat shirt.

Now, I can't access the actual instructions but hasn't the new Operational Dress Instruction addressed most if not all of these issues?


CANFORGEN 168/18 COMD CA 025/18 091244Z OCT 18
CA OPERATIONAL DRESS INSTRUCTIONS

Edit:

Now that I think about it, my CSM wore US equivalent rank on his sleeve in Kabul, and my Team Leader (WO) wore US and Norwegian rank as we worked closely with them.
Title: Re: Div patch on cadpat
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 08, 2019, 21:01:05
Sometimes you need to check yourself before you start a series of posts that...well, they're of no benefit and you're ranting like a Week 7 recruit.  That was me in this thread earlier.  My apologies, folks.

This should have been my queue that I wasn't only off the hardstand, I was a few hundred meters into the cattails and making awfully  good time.

Back to the issue of Div patches, I noticed that CP Gear now offers wool DEU Div patches (meaning no CADPAT, just the div colour patch) and the default is to have them Velcro back. While this makes sense to me, I wonder how long before someone gets in trouble for wearing that on combats?

http://www.cpgear.com/create_products/Division-Patches-Wool-?c=5024397&dp=2&n=83303857 (http://www.cpgear.com/create_products/Division-Patches-Wool-?c=5024397&dp=2&n=83303857)

EITS