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The Newsroom => Military Current Affairs & News => Topic started by: Blackadder1916 on June 26, 2018, 19:57:51

Title: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Blackadder1916 on June 26, 2018, 19:57:51
Much like 2 PPCLI who provided the Guard one year ago (https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,126035.0.html), Canadians are again in London and Windsor protecting the Sovereign.  This time in Air Force blue.

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/events/public-duties.page
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rQ2DeW7aaY
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Remius on June 26, 2018, 22:14:14
Much like 2 PPCLI who provided the Guard one year ago (https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,126035.0.html), Canadians are again in London and Windsor protecting the Sovereign.  This time in Air Force blue.

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/events/public-duties.page
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rQ2DeW7aaY


They look good. 
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Chris Pook on June 26, 2018, 22:16:11

They look good.

Agreed - and a whole lot better than the shambles that turned out for Harry's wedding.
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: daftandbarmy on June 26, 2018, 22:22:05
Much like 2 PPCLI who provided the Guard one year ago (https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,126035.0.html), Canadians are again in London and Windsor protecting the Sovereign.  This time in Air Force blue.

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/events/public-duties.page
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rQ2DeW7aaY

That's awesome. Well done all!

I understand that it's also the 100th anniversary of the founding of the RAF. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Blackadder1916 on June 26, 2018, 23:18:24

They look good.

They do, but what would the forum be without picking out the flaws.

https://youtu.be/9rQ2DeW7aaY?t=51

Over the major's right shoulder, airmen along the wall, second man right of the tree, using his rifle's magazine as a footrest.
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: FSTO on June 27, 2018, 07:47:11
They do, but what would the forum be without picking out the flaws.

https://youtu.be/9rQ2DeW7aaY?t=51

Over the major's right shoulder, airmen along the wall, second man right of the tree, using his rifle's magazine as a footrest.
I've never seen that before.  :rofl:

Then there is the MARLANT poopshow for the GG  :facepalm:

https://www.facebook.com/GGJuliePayette/videos/2293665957325394/
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Remius on June 27, 2018, 08:05:05
I've never seen that before.  :rofl:

Then there is the MARLANT poopshow for the GG  :facepalm:

https://www.facebook.com/GGJuliePayette/videos/2293665957325394/

Gah...
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Once_a_TQ on June 27, 2018, 08:20:27
They do, but what would the forum be without picking out the flaws.

https://youtu.be/9rQ2DeW7aaY?t=51

Over the major's right shoulder, airmen along the wall, second man right of the tree, using his rifle's magazine as a footrest.

*Twitch twitch*

Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Furniture on June 27, 2018, 08:36:25
I've never seen that before.  :rofl:

Then there is the MARLANT poopshow for the GG  :facepalm:

https://www.facebook.com/GGJuliePayette/videos/2293665957325394/

When I was a Cpl on the guard in MARLANT we would do a single one hour practice before a task... When your job doesn't include drill of any kind on a regular basis there is bound to be skill fade, and one hour every few weeks or months isn't enough to keep you sharp. The RCAF team spent 6 weeks in Winnipeg practicing before heading over, and it shows in how sharp they look.
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: FSTO on June 27, 2018, 09:16:21
When I was a Cpl on the guard in MARLANT we would do a single one hour practice before a task... When your job doesn't include drill of any kind on a regular basis there is bound to be skill fade, and one hour every few weeks or months isn't enough to keep you sharp. The RCAF team spent 6 weeks in Winnipeg practicing before heading over, and it shows in how sharp they look.

Well MARLANT is the "Operational Coast" after all. (sarcasm)

It's like they don't give a **** in Halifax anymore. They couldn't find a female LCdr to be guard Commander? Scabbard not hooked up, sword belt outside of the jacket, holding the sword wrong, WTF kind of salute was that during the Royal Salute?
If Rear Admiral Bains doesn't send a rocket down to Seamanship Div I sure as hell hope the Formation Chief does. That was a total embarrassment! 
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Remius on June 27, 2018, 09:20:41
When I was a Cpl on the guard in MARLANT we would do a single one hour practice before a task... When your job doesn't include drill of any kind on a regular basis there is bound to be skill fade, and one hour every few weeks or months isn't enough to keep you sharp. The RCAF team spent 6 weeks in Winnipeg practicing before heading over, and it shows in how sharp they look.

Does not excuse the fact that personal drill was terrible.  Belts were worn like gunslingers and the Parade Commander wore her belt on the outside of her tunic.

Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Big Spoon on June 27, 2018, 10:17:46
When I was a Cpl on the guard in MARLANT we would do a single one hour practice before a task... When your job doesn't include drill of any kind on a regular basis there is bound to be skill fade, and one hour every few weeks or months isn't enough to keep you sharp. The RCAF team spent 6 weeks in Winnipeg practicing before heading over, and it shows in how sharp they look.

I remember doing that duty a few times.
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Furniture on June 27, 2018, 12:45:45
Does not excuse the fact that personal drill was terrible.  Belts were worn like gunslingers and the Parade Commander wore her belt on the outside of her tunic.

Troops can spend the work day practicing drill, or they can spend the day doing the jobs they are trained to do... If we want people to look good on parades then we need to have a unit that does that as a job. Taking clerks, maintainers, cooks, forecasters, etc. and expecting them to look as good as people doing nothing but drill and ceremony as a full time job is setting yourself up for failure.

If we want a sharp looking guard at all times then we should make it a tasking and have people rotate in/out every 3-4 months. That's long enough to become good at drill, and uniform maintenance, but not so long that job skill fade is a real concern. Otherwise we will continue to have guards thrown together on short notice that are filled with people that look like a mess.
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Remius on June 27, 2018, 13:02:27
Troops can spend the work day practicing drill, or they can spend the day doing the jobs they are trained to do... If we want people to look good on parades then we need to have a unit that does that as a job. Taking clerks, maintainers, cooks, forecasters, etc. and expecting them to look as good as people doing nothing but drill and ceremony as a full time job is setting yourself up for failure.

If we want a sharp looking guard at all times then we should make it a tasking and have people rotate in/out every 3-4 months. That's long enough to become good at drill, and uniform maintenance, but not so long that job skill fade is a real concern. Otherwise we will continue to have guards thrown together on short notice that are filled with people that look like a mess.

Tightening a white belt and having a crisp salute or coming to attention doesn’t take a lot of time to master or maintain. Knowing how to wear a sword or finding out is incumbant on the individual.   

I can understand collective drill not being up to snuff.

If they look like a mess it’s a failure on the individuals and the leadership.
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: daftandbarmy on June 27, 2018, 14:58:20
Tightening a white belt and having a crisp salute or coming to attention doesn’t take a lot of time to master or maintain. Knowing how to wear a sword or finding out is incumbant on the individual.   

I can understand collective drill not being up to snuff.

If they look like a mess it’s a failure on the individuals and the leadership.

The prominent beer guts will take a bit of work too :)
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Blackadder1916 on June 27, 2018, 16:18:58
The prominent beer guts will take a bit of work too :)

A bit of work to reduce or develop?  :)  One standard for all.
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Hamish Seggie on June 27, 2018, 19:41:33

They look good.
I concur. Pretty damn sharp. Well done RCAF.
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: gcclarke on June 28, 2018, 13:01:58
Tightening a white belt and having a crisp salute or coming to attention doesn’t take a lot of time to master or maintain. Knowing how to wear a sword or finding out is incumbant on the individual.   

I can understand collective drill not being up to snuff.

If they look like a mess it’s a failure on the individuals and the leadership.

Keeping individual drill up to snuff still takes and individual's time away from their personal job. And really, it's not something that can reasonably be practiced on your own anyways.

I'm also firmly of the opinion that every hour spent on drill is an hour that could be spent doing pretty much anything more useful. What actual utility do we gain out of this? How does it contribute to operational capability? Not one whit.
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 28, 2018, 15:13:28
Troops can spend the work day practicing drill, or they can spend the day doing the jobs they are trained to do... If we want people to look good on parades then we need to have a unit that does that as a job. Taking clerks, maintainers, cooks, forecasters, etc. and expecting them to look as good as people doing nothing but drill and ceremony as a full time job is setting yourself up for failure.

If we want a sharp looking guard at all times then we should make it a tasking and have people rotate in/out every 3-4 months. That's long enough to become good at drill, and uniform maintenance, but not so long that job skill fade is a real concern. Otherwise we will continue to have guards thrown together on short notice that are filled with people that look like a mess.

Drill and parades are part of the jobs of clerks, maintainers, cooks, forecasters, etc.  I wouldn't expect them to be as sharp as the USMC Drill Team, but that was pretty bad.  Every CAF member should be able to do basic foot and weapons drill, and know how to wear the uniforms they are issued.  Full stop.

I don't know about the world you live in, but my world, there aren't enough people to keep the line ops at 100%. 
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Blackadder1916 on June 28, 2018, 15:35:32
So, with an RCAF bunch over there this year to coincide with Canada Day and an Army bunch (2 PPCLI) over there last year for the same Canada Day period, anyone want odds that someone in the RCN is already hatching plans to have a Navy bunch over there next year.
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: FSTO on June 28, 2018, 15:43:57
Keeping individual drill up to snuff still takes and individual's time away from their personal job. And really, it's not something that can reasonably be practiced on your own anyways.

I'm also firmly of the opinion that every hour spent on drill is an hour that could be spent doing pretty much anything more useful. What actual utility do we gain out of this? How does it contribute to operational capability? Not one whit.

Your attitude towards drill, dress and deportment sadly seems to be the norm these days.
As a result, when we do form up a guard for a special occasion or for a visiting dignitary I am not surprised that we look like a shambling pack of slovenly civilian fast food workers.
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: dapaterson on June 28, 2018, 15:59:20
The RCR will mount the guard this fall...
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Furniture on June 28, 2018, 16:20:56
Drill and parades are part of the jobs of clerks, maintainers, cooks, forecasters, etc.  I wouldn't expect them to be as sharp as the USMC Drill Team, but that was pretty bad.  Every CAF member should be able to do basic foot and weapons drill, and know how to wear the uniforms they are issued.  Full stop.

I don't know about the world you live in, but my world, there aren't enough people to keep the line ops at 100%.

My world is understaffed and over worked too, which is why drill and fancy dress is not in my top three concerns.

There are no excuses for the worst offenders in the MARLANT video, but to expect the guard to look sharp is to set yourself up for disappointment.
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Remius on June 28, 2018, 16:34:13
Keeping individual drill up to snuff still takes and individual's time away from their personal job. And really, it's not something that can reasonably be practiced on your own anyways.

I'm also firmly of the opinion that every hour spent on drill is an hour that could be spent doing pretty much anything more useful. What actual utility do we gain out of this? How does it contribute to operational capability? Not one whit.



We are a professional or at least are supposed to be a professional military in every aspect. That includes drill and ceremonial.  Remembrance day parades, guards of honour for visiting dignitaries, local parades for communities all contribute to Canada's and the CAF strategic goals and missions.  So no it won't really help you operationally but get out of that mindset and think big picture.  Not every thing we do is operational.

Also note what I said.  Saluting and wearing belts.  How much practice do you need for that?  The MARLANT guys weren't doing overly complex drill.  no forms or turns into line or anything like that.  And yeah, the timing may be off or some movements might be off but there is no reason, NO EXCUSE to look like hot garbage while doing it.



   
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Navy_Pete on June 28, 2018, 16:56:23
I remember practicing for a family day parade that was happening at the school we were at in the UK for training (Sultan).  The RN officers thought it was funny watching the colonials practicing turns into a line in the parking lot by the weirdroom (DEOs don't learn that on basic btw), and it wasn't perfect on the day of, but more or less pulled it off. It looked sharp compared to the RN 'turn on the march' is a stop, slide the foot and pivot thing, which a few of the visiting families mentioned when we spoke to them afterwards. Our RN SLt counterparts were bear marching, and generally looked terrible, and the RSM got them to stay on the parade square and march around it a few times after the other 24 ish platoons got dismissed.

Didn't take much effort, and was just a personal pride thing at not wanting to look like a tool, but how hard is it really to spend a bit of time sorting yourself out if you are rusty?  If they didn't have laid on practices, sure the drill shed staff would have helped anyone out that asked ahead of time.  They were great when we borrowed some swords for one of the guys weddings, and a PO there ran us through forming the arch in about 15 minutes over lunch one day.

Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 28, 2018, 18:09:03
My world is understaffed and over worked too, which is why drill and fancy dress is not in my top three concerns.

There are no excuses for the worst offenders in the MARLANT video, but to expect the guard to look sharp is to set yourself up for disappointment.

Sometimes, though, its time to park planes/vehs/*not sure what they call parking a ship*..RCN help me out here and/or down tools/keyboards, and when the order is "shine your boots, remember the "move on the 1s, pause on the 2-3" stuff...we should at least make the best effort.  We do it on Remembrance Day, Change of Command parades, etc. 

I know the Officer in the MARLANT parade was 'the one in command', but where the heck was the CP01/CP02 and why didn't he/she make an attempt to make people look like they knew how to dress themselves?  Are pre-parade DEU inspections against our rights now or something? 
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: PuckChaser on June 28, 2018, 18:27:21
So, with an RCAF bunch over there this year to coincide with Canada Day and an Army bunch (2 PPCLI) over there last year for the same Canada Day period, anyone want odds that someone in the RCN is already hatching plans to have a Navy bunch over there next year.

Can they mount the Queen's guard while sitting in folding chairs?
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: FSTO on June 28, 2018, 18:30:48
Can they mount the Queen's guard while sitting in folding chairs?

That was MARLANT, leave the rest of the Navy out it!  :rofl:
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Furniture on June 28, 2018, 21:39:39
Sometimes, though, its time to park planes/vehs/*not sure what they call parking a crap*..RCN help me out here and/or down tools/keyboards, and when the order is "shine your boots, remember the "move on the 1s, pause on the 2-3" stuff...we should at least make the best effort.  We do it on Remembrance Day, Change of Command parades, etc. 

I know the Officer in the MARLANT parade was 'the one in command', but where the heck was the CP01/CP02 and why didn't he/she make an attempt to make people look like they knew how to dress themselves?  Are pre-parade DEU inspections against our rights now or something?

I personally love drill  and volunteer to do parades when I can, I'm sick and demented in that way...


Yes there should have been a CPO1/2 there to sort those troops out, hell even a weatherman Sgt would have sufficed ;) My point is we as the CAF have pushed PT, drill, marksmanship, CBRN, etc. off as unnecessary wastes of time to be learned on DLN. How can we now expect our troops who don't do "military" things to be "military" looking when we want them to? We wear sloppy uniforms with mismatched boots to work every day, where is the military bearing being enforced and encouraged?

Don't get me wrong, I love that I don't spend an hour before work every day polishing and pressing uniforms, but lets not pretend that has no effect on parades and appearance.
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 29, 2018, 14:33:22
You bring up a point though about 'pushing stuff'.  I've heard that drill, except the most basic movements, won't be taught at CFLRS anymore.  WTF?

CFLRS *is* the time and proper part in the trg system to do exactly that.  Drill is much more than just 'moving';  pride, esprit de corps, teamwork, accomplishment, discipline...and we're removing it from BASIC training and expecting the various occupational TEs to pick up the weight, or even worse, the operational units??

Whoever okay'd that should be asked to turn their kit in, along with the person who requested it in the first place.  In a few years, once the first of the Officers and NCMs who go thru the new "no drill" BMQ/BMOQ" are on the next MARLANT Parade for the GG...imagine how much worse it is going to be.

 ::)
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: FSTO on June 29, 2018, 16:19:42
You bring up a point though about 'pushing stuff'.  I've heard that drill, except the most basic movements, won't be taught at CFLRS anymore.  WTF?

CFLRS *is* the time and proper part in the trg system to do exactly that.  Drill is much more than just 'moving';  pride, esprit de corps, teamwork, accomplishment, discipline...and we're removing it from BASIC training and expecting the various occupational TEs to pick up the weight, or even worse, the operational units??

Whoever okay'd that should be asked to turn their kit in, along with the person who requested it in the first place.  In a few years, once the first of the Officers and NCMs who go thru the new "no drill" BMQ/BMOQ" are on the next MARLANT Parade for the GG...imagine how much worse it is going to be.

 ::)

So the Americans have already gone down this route of less hands on training and more "distributed" or electronic learning for all skill and the result has been USS McCain and Fitzgerald incidents. They are now re-looking at these initiatives and have realized all that "needless stuff" was actually important and are in some aspects bringing them back!

Now with this news from CFLRS and what I hear about the reduction of training at the Naval Schools I fear that in a few years we'll be bringing sailors home in caskets as well. How about we skip the hard lesson route and continue with the tried and true!

 
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Dimsum on July 05, 2018, 20:05:07
Looks like the Changing of the Guard wasn't the only thing they were doing.

Quote
Marching through the streets of Folkestone, United Kingdom 🇬🇧

#RCAF Public Duties contingent paraded through the streets of Folkestone, United Kingdom, yesterday, after being granted Freedom of the City.

The RCAF Public Duties contingent was led by Brigadier-General Lowell Thomas, Commanding Officer, Canadian Defence Liaison Staff London. Canadian Armed Forces Members from throughout Europe also were present to observe the memorable occasion.

https://www.facebook.com/RCAF.ARC/posts/10155395253641237
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Eye In The Sky on July 05, 2018, 20:07:08
Personally, I wish we would have left the forge cap in the past.

I think the contingent is doing the RCAF proud.  BZ.
Title: Re: Public duties - RCAF
Post by: Navy_Pete on July 05, 2018, 20:26:24
You bring up a point though about 'pushing stuff'.  I've heard that drill, except the most basic movements, won't be taught at CFLRS anymore.  WTF?

CFLRS *is* the time and proper part in the trg system to do exactly that.  Drill is much more than just 'moving';  pride, esprit de corps, teamwork, accomplishment, discipline...and we're removing it from BASIC training and expecting the various occupational TEs to pick up the weight, or even worse, the operational units??

Whoever okay'd that should be asked to turn their kit in, along with the person who requested it in the first place.  In a few years, once the first of the Officers and NCMs who go thru the new "no drill" BMQ/BMOQ" are on the next MARLANT Parade for the GG...imagine how much worse it is going to be.

 ::)

Anyone know what drill movements they are cutting out?  The only drill I ever learned after basic was sword drill, but aside from that, used everything from basic on normal monthly parades during the trades training.  I thought getting in rank, sizing, open/close order then a march past was pretty basic stuff. Oddly you don't do much C7 drill in the Navy, but that wasn't hard, and was required for the grad parade.

I must be getting old or something, almost typed 'back in my day'..... Get off my lawn! :tantrum: