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The Mess => Canadian Politics => Topic started by: MARS on July 17, 2018, 14:36:26

Title: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: MARS on July 17, 2018, 14:36:26
One guess, and that's all it is, is that the Liberal's polling says that the NDP's momentum has stalled, even slipped away and the Conservatives are headed towards a comfortable majority ... that will spell trouble for the Liberals because the PCPO will, very likely, want to open two or three judicial inquiries into various things that were done by both the McGuinty and Wynne administrations ... a Horwath government that depends upon LPO support might be willing to overlook the past 15 years.

Maybe she's making a 'Hail Mary' play to try to stave off something worse than just losing the election.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/doug-ford-to-announce-inquiry-into-previous-liberal-governments-spending
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: pbi on July 17, 2018, 14:51:11
I certainly agree that there are probably things in the Liberal closet that need to be dragged out into the daylight. In Canada, this is likely true of any Govt, Provincial or Federal, that has done at least two terms. I just don't think that the present Ontario Govt should put any energy or horsepower into that, until it has come to grips with some far more important and pressing issues.

Vengeance is not really important right now, no matter how good it might feel.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: FJAG on July 17, 2018, 15:26:34
I certainly agree that there are probably things in the Liberal closet that need to be dragged out into the daylight. In Canada, this is likely true of any Govt, Provincial or Federal, that has done at least two terms. I just don't think that the present Ontario Govt should put any energy or horsepower into that, until it has come to grips with some far more important and pressing issues.

Vengeance is not really important right now, no matter how good it might feel.

True enough but there is always room for concurrent activity. If the backroom story behind these money wasting activities aren't brought to light in the near future, they'll be forgotten.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Remius on July 17, 2018, 15:27:58
True enough but there is always room for concurrent activity. If the backroom story behind these money wasting activities aren't brought to light in the near future, they'll be forgotten.

 :cheers:

Agreed.  And if the province wants to move forward it needs a full picture.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Fishbone Jones on July 17, 2018, 16:20:12
This is not about vengeance or payback. It's about getting things in order before the next election. Its going to take a lot of time to do a line search and connect the dots. It has to be completed and actioned before a new campaign starts. We won't get that unless we start now. The books are wrong. We can't spend or move forward until we know what the socialists left in the bank. If anything. I think it's going to be worse news than better. The previous government was dishonest. Thĺey simply cannot be taken at their word. I hope Scheer does the same to Trudeau and his bunch.


edit for spelling
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 17, 2018, 16:43:30
This is not about vengeance or payback. It's about getting things in order before the next election. Its going to take a lot of time to do a line search and connect the dots. It has to be completed and auctioned before a new campaign starts. We won't get that unless we start now. The books are wrong. We can't spend or move forward until we know what the socialists left in the bank. If anything. I think it's going to be worse news than better. The previous government was dishonest. Thĺey simply cannot be taken at their word. I hope Scheer does the same to Trudeau and his bunch.
Scheer still going to be the leader in 2023?

Figured it would be MacKay by then

 ;D
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: YZT580 on July 17, 2018, 16:49:49
ordinarily I would agree with you Altair but at the rate he is going Justin could end up as a one-term wonder.  His government is rapidly approaching its best-before date unless the coming cabinet shuffle succeeds in pushing the re-start button.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 17, 2018, 16:58:33
ordinarily I would agree with you Altair but at the rate he is going Justin could end up as a one-term wonder.  His government is rapidly approaching its best-before date unless the coming cabinet shuffle succeeds in pushing the re-start button.

He campaigns pretty well, and he's currently running against himself.

And Scheer is out doing stuff like this right now, which is flying under the radar

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/article-globe-editorial-andrew-scheers-cheesy-trade-war-politics/

Quote
Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer did his part on Tuesday when he released a statement criticizing not U.S. President Donald Trump, who capriciously imposed levies on Canadian steel and aluminum last week, but Prime Minister Justin Trudeau for the crime of announcing “flexibility” in his position on access to the Canadian dairy market.

Mr. Scheer called any weakening of the tariffs that shield Canadian milk, eggs and poultry from foreign competition “totally unacceptable” and accused the PM of being duplicitous for saying otherwise to an American audience.

The most galling thing about this attack on the PM was not that the Conservative stance on supply management is dead wrong. All three major parties have, in the past, steadfastly supported the antiquated and expensive fixed prices, production quotas and trade barriers that protect dairy and poultry farming in Canada, so Mr. Scheer is not alone in this.

As well, the hypocrisy of the Tories, Canada’s party of economic liberalism, backing a protectionist price-fixing scheme that costs consumers dearly is obvious enough.

No, it’s the way the party, and Mr. Scheer in particular, came to their wrong-headed position that is most troubling.

The party is led by a man who secured his job in large part thanks to the votes of insta-Conservative dairy farmers who signed up in key Quebec ridings to defeat Mr. Scheer’s libertarian rival, Maxime Bernier, in the 2017 leadership race.

Boots Bernier out of shadow cabinet, check.

Criticizes PM about failing to stand up for supply management, check.

You see where this is going.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 17, 2018, 17:01:27
Liberal slush fund aka cap and trade is gone.

Ontario Hydro mafia is out.

Liberals lost party status.

Things are looking up.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Remius on July 17, 2018, 17:16:52
So far so good for Ontario.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: pbi on July 17, 2018, 18:20:20
True enough but there is always room for concurrent activity. If the backroom story behind these money wasting activities aren't brought to light in the near future, they'll be forgotten.

 :cheers:
Perhaps. But in my opinion, that isn't the nearest, or even the second nearest, crocodile right now. And Canadian governments, of all stripes and persuasions, have a nasty historical habit of of blaming their inability to deliver XYZ because The Previous Govt robbed the piggy bank, or cooked the books. I would have thought that any normal handover process of Govt would include a full audit of books as an SOP: nothing to trumpet about.

Just saying...
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Brihard on July 17, 2018, 18:34:41

Ontario Hydro mafia is out.

I'll reserve judgment until compensation figures for the new president and board are made public.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: PuckChaser on July 17, 2018, 18:40:43
Split this stuff on its own as the election is over. I'll leave the other thread open as there's always stuff that comes up relating to the election's conduct/voter turnout/etc a couple months after the polls close.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 17, 2018, 18:44:24
I'll reserve judgment until compensation figures for the new president and board are made public.

Sounds like they'll still retain stocks, benefits and a bunch of other crap.  Which really shouldn't surprise anyone because these people really dig themselves in WW1 style to the system.  CEO was expecting 10+ million and would be entitled to all kids of benefits. He's supposedly getting $400'000 and will still get the same benefits, which I've read could be as much as 5 mill.  Still pricey but I think getting those guys and girls out of Hydro One would be a victory for Ontario even IF they got their full severance.

Edited to add I mean the old crew. Good point about the new one but can't imagine it being worse than what we had.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Fishbone Jones on July 17, 2018, 20:09:19
Sounds like they'll still retain stocks, benefits and a bunch of other crap.  Which really shouldn't surprise anyone because these people really dig themselves in WW1 style to the system.  CEO was expecting 10+ million and would be entitled to all kids of benefits. He's supposedly getting $400'000 and will still get the same benefits, which I've read could be as much as 5 mill.  Still pricey but I think getting those guys and girls out of Hydro One would be a victory for Ontario even IF they got their full severance.

I was going to give you +300, but I've already rewarded you today.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Brihard on July 17, 2018, 20:13:55
Sounds like they'll still retain stocks, benefits and a bunch of other crap.  Which really shouldn't surprise anyone because these people really dig themselves in WW1 style to the system.  CEO was expecting 10+ million and would be entitled to all kids of benefits. He's supposedly getting $400'000 and will still get the same benefits, which I've read could be as much as 5 mill.  Still pricey but I think getting those guys and girls out of Hydro One would be a victory for Ontario even IF they got their full severance.

I'm skeptical that Hydro One will have much success attracting executive talent with compensation packages that are smaller enough to put the wind in Ford's sails on this one... We shall see of course- but my understanding is that the province holds just less than a majority of Hydro One shares. They are not in a position to completely control matters, and the rest of the shareholders will only care about their return on investment.

One would have thought that as a Conservative premier, Ford would have preferred to simply divest the province of the corporation entirely.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Brad Sallows on July 17, 2018, 22:19:32
Getting the books right doesn't require an investigation.  The finance department is entirely capable of producing documents which show the state of affairs and of highlighting any creative accounting tricks.

Investigations would properly be aimed at suspected corruption, particularly flows of money to where none should have gone.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: FJAG on July 17, 2018, 22:34:47
Getting the books right doesn't require an investigation.  The finance department is entirely capable of producing documents which show the state of affairs and of highlighting any creative accounting tricks.

Investigations would properly be aimed at suspected corruption, particularly flows of money to where none should have gone.

I'm generally not a believer in the conspiracy theories about civil servants being in bed with certain political parties, but the Liberals have held power here since 2004 under both the McGuinty and Wynne regimes so there has been more than enough time to both develop such relationships and departments to have buried the bodies.

I think that the financial data may be there but  whether it will be presented in context and with the relevant internal communications (especially considering the deletion of emails by Livingston scandal/conviction) still leaves room for a forensic accounting by an outside firm.

I tend to agree that the new cabinet shouldn't waste time and energy on this which is why having an outside firm do the work and render a report makes sense. Last news report I saw said that it should take some five weeks.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: suffolkowner on July 17, 2018, 23:00:15
I'm skeptical that Hydro One will have much success attracting executive talent with compensation packages that are smaller enough to put the wind in Ford's sails on this one... We shall see of course- but my understanding is that the province holds just less than a majority of Hydro One shares. They are not in a position to completely control matters, and the rest of the shareholders will only care about their return on investment.

One would have thought that as a Conservative premier, Ford would have preferred to simply divest the province of the corporation entirely.


It will not be hard for the Ontario government to gain a controlling interest in Hydro One, unless I am missing something? Is the stock price not down as of right now?

As far as attracting talent how would you judge that? This comes up quite a bit but of the couple of studies that i have read have been unable to show any correlation between executive qualification and corporate performance.

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: pbi on July 18, 2018, 13:09:45

As far as attracting talent how would you judge that? This comes up quite a bit but of the couple of studies that i have read have been unable to show any correlation between executive qualification and corporate performance.

It might not be  that hard to get good people. Really, at the level of CEO and the Board, how much do they actually have to know about how an electricity system works?  They will have a COO, VPs and a bag of tech SMEs to advise them on that. IMHO they just need to understand that the people who pay their salaries expect that they will do something about hydro rates before it chokes the life out of businesses and beggars people who struggle to pay the monthly light bill.

To be fair to the new team coming in, they will probably inherit the mess of over a half-century of public ownership during which users probably didn't pay the actual market cost of anything. That, and the infrastructure situation: we have some quite new plants like the Darlington and Bruce nukes, but Pickering nuke is quite old, and there are a lot of very old hydro plants scattered all over the province, along with thousands of km of lines, hundreds of transformer yards and switches, and all of that.

I just can't see how it won't cost us all a big bunch of money in the long run, no matter which party is in power.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: FJAG on July 18, 2018, 14:26:57
The following article from CNBC outlines the critical issues respecting CEOs pay.

Quote
Since 1978, and adjusted for inflation, American workers have seen an 11.2 percent increase in compensation. During that same period, CEO's have seen a 937 percent increase in earnings. That salary growth is even 70 percent faster than the rise in the stock market, according to the Economic Policy Institute.
. . .
"CEOs are getting more because of their power to set pay, not because they are more productive or have special talent or have more education," says the report. "Exorbitant CEO pay means that the fruits of economic growth are not going to ordinary workers, since the higher CEO pay does not reflect correspondingly higher output."

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/22/heres-how-much-ceo-pay-has-increased-compared-to-yours-over-the-years.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/22/heres-how-much-ceo-pay-has-increased-compared-to-yours-over-the-years.html)

For years I've believed that as shareholders (both public and private) we've allowed ourselves to be manipulated by the executive leadership/management profession into believing that they are worth the exorbitant compensation that they are demanding. They aren't. It's time to readjust their expectations downward.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Fishbone Jones on July 18, 2018, 16:02:07
The following article from CNBC outlines the critical issues respecting CEOs pay.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/22/heres-how-much-ceo-pay-has-increased-compared-to-yours-over-the-years.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/22/heres-how-much-ceo-pay-has-increased-compared-to-yours-over-the-years.html)

For years I've believed that as shareholders (both public and private) we've allowed ourselves to be manipulated by the executive leadership/management profession into believing that they are worth the exorbitant compensation that they are demanding. They aren't. It's time to readjust their expectations downward.

 :cheers:

Agreed, and the rot is not confined to the corporate world.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 19, 2018, 17:31:18
Quote
https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politics/ont-minister-criticized-for-saying-he-wore-bulletproof-vest-in-toronto-neighbourhood-1.4019099
An Ontario minister tasked with fighting racism is being criticized by his political opponents for a comment that NDP Leader Andrea Horwath calls racist.

The minister pointed out that he wore a bulletproof vest during the police ride-along.

"I went out to Jane and Finch, put on a bulletproof vest and spent 7 o’clock to 1 o’clock in the morning visiting sites that had previously had bullet-ridden people killed in the middle of the night," Tibollo said during question period at Queen’s Park on Wednesday.


Somebody get this man a white sheet.

Just kidding, NDP's weak *** effort to stay in the news.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: PuckChaser on July 19, 2018, 17:33:56
I guess he was just using his white privilege to stay alive in a city where people shoot up playgrounds in broad daylight with illegal guns.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Fishbone Jones on July 19, 2018, 17:54:10
I'm guessing it was a requirement to wear it for the ride along. Insurance rules.

Perhaps the dippers figure only military and police should have vests. Goes with their only military and police should have guns. Anyone else wearing a vest, NGOs, UN Observers, the Ontario Environmental SWAT team, etc are all racist.

Horvath is portraying her party as a bunch of screaming me me's. She's going to have everyone rolling their eyes and ignoring their chicken little speeches, even before the Legislature returns to normal sitting.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 19, 2018, 17:57:58
Yea, the police asked him too. The NDP do love their race baiting tactics.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 19, 2018, 18:38:41
I've never seen a politician in Toronto wear a vest to a 9-1-1 call. But, I've been retired for over nine years.

Perhaps that is now the TPS SOP?

QUOTE

Jul 19, 2018

He ( Toronto Mayor John Tory ) said he’s been on around 10 police ride-alongs over the years and has never requested a bulletproof vest nor has he been asked to wear one.

Tory also noted that photos appear to show Premier Doug Ford on the same ride-along as Tibollo, but without the extra protection.
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2018/07/19/bulletproof-vest-tory/

END QUOTE

I never wore a vest.  But, I never criticised co-workers who did.

To keep the Toronto hysteria in perspective,

Canada’s Most Dangerous Places 2018
https://www.macleans.ca/canadas-most-dangerous-places/
See how your community ranks
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Fishbone Jones on July 19, 2018, 18:47:59
Who cares. Perhaps he wanted to see what it was like. I wonder if he asked for it or was offered a chance to wear it. At any rate, Horvath and her gang are really stupid for even trying this stunt. All it does is show how dishonest, deceitful and partisan her party is. It's already forgotten.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 19, 2018, 18:57:23
I've never seen a politician in Toronto wear a vest to a 9-1-1 call. But, I've been retired for over nine years.
Have you seen many politicians on ride alongs?

Quote
Perhaps that is now the TPS SOP?

Quote
In a statement, Toronto police say Tibollo was given the bullet-proof vest as a cautionary measure. In the photo, the vest was also emblazoned with the minister’s name and the word “POLICE.”

"When police do a ride along, there is a safety assessment," a Toronto police spokesperson said in a statement. "Since we always err on the side of caution, there is a presumption that the person doing the ride along will be provided with a vest."

From personal experience it's extremely obnoxious when you're forced to bring a civilian around a dangerous area and they don't listen to your instructions or precautions. *cough* global TV reporer*cough*
Do you think maybe the minister should have said no to the police?

Seems like some Toronto EMS wear them
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,102523.msg1079014.html#msg1079014



Quote

I never wore a vest.  But, I never criticised co-workers who did.
But your reply #11 in the above link you say did wear a vest, an external one.

Quote
Canada’s Most Dangerous Places 2018
https://www.macleans.ca/canadas-most-dangerous-places/
See how your community ranks

Western Canada sure sounds dangerous. Do you suppose there's some kind of reoccuring theme there or is it all random?
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 19, 2018, 19:08:35
But your reply #11 in the above link you say did wear a vest, an external one.

Did you bother to read Reply #6?

They gave us vests to try on at a CME ( Continuing Medical Education ). I had it on for five minutes and loathed every minute of it. It was very uncomfortable, and looked confrontational.
That's just my personal opinion. Not everyone felt that way. I see a lot of the younger guys wearing them now.

It was offered. I made my choice not to sign one out. But, I never criticised those who did.

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 19, 2018, 19:19:55
Quote from: mariomike
Did you bother to read Reply #6?

It was offered. I made my choice not to sign one out. But, I never criticised those who did.
I sure did. When you said you wore an external one it didn't sound like you meant only for 5 minutes. My bad.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: pbi on July 20, 2018, 13:59:54
Who cares. Perhaps he wanted to see what it was like. I wonder if he asked for it or was offered a chance to wear it. At any rate, Horvath and her gang are really stupid for even trying this stunt. All it does is show how dishonest, deceitful and partisan her party is. It's already forgotten.

Quite apart from this vest business, is the evident truth of what he actually said in the House. I watched his initial comments and then his refusal to climb down in the face of self-righteous howling by the opposite benches. So, here I go, sailing close to the wind...

I don't know the Minister from Adam, and I'm not very right wing, but what I heard him say about that district, and about who kills who with guns in TO, was true. It's just that we seem very leery of actually tagging the problem to the community in question, lest we be accused of...well--you know what.

This problem is not new. When I was a young Militia recruit in 1974, my section commander was a Metro Police constable in what I believe was then 13 Division, which covered the neighbourhood the Minister mentioned.  One day, in talking about work, he offered that: "in Jane and Finch we never go to any call with less than two cars". That was 44 years ago.

Since those days, the problem has not only gotten worse: it has spread to a portion of Scarborough, and out to Brampton and Mississauga. In my opinion, it can't just be shuffled off as an "immigrant problem". Most of Toronto's immigrant communities, even those who went through a violent phase, have moved onwards and mostly upwards. And, I bet, many of those involved are no longer immigrants but native-born Canadians. (Check out that 44 years figure...)

Considering who the targets of the violence normally are (not counting tragic collateral victims like Jane Creba) I have a difficult time swallowing the rationales constantly trotted out as to why this problem persists in this community. Many immigrant groups in this country have faced racism, nativism, and other bigotry. Not all of them have remained in such a terrible, lethal mess for so long. What is going wrong here?

The Minister had the courage to raise issues many people would rather not hear. And who knows, maybe the Tories can't do much to fix it. But, IMHO, the first step in fixing a problem is defining just what that problem is, as unpleasant as it may be to discuss it.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 20, 2018, 15:16:40
When I was a young Militia recruit in 1974, my section commander was a Metro Police constable in what I believe was then 13 Division, which covered the neighbourhood the Minister mentioned. 

13 Division covers this area,
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/d13/neighbourhoods.php

You may have been thinking of 31 Division,
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/d31/neighbourhoods.php
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: pbi on July 20, 2018, 15:26:15
13 Division covers this area,
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/d13/neighbourhoods.php

Yes: I looked at that TPS map before I posted. Maybe 13 Div boundaries are different now than they were in 1974. In any case, he was definitely speaking about the problem in Jane and Finch.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 20, 2018, 15:31:43
Maybe 13 Div boundaries are different now than they were in 1974.

I was stationed in the Marlee ( between Dufferin and Bathurst ) and Eglinton area in 1972. It was 13 Division back then. It is still 13 Division.

West-end City of Toronto and Borough of York divisions started with a 1.

East-end City of Toronto and Borough of East York divisions started with a 5.

Borough of Etobicoke divisions started with a 2,

Borough of North York divisions started with a 3. ( That would include Jane and Finch. )

Borough of Scarborough divisions started with a 4.

That is the way Metro Police have numbered their divisions from 1957 to this day.

On Friday night, Mayor Tory went on a bike ride-along. Without a vest, "saying he has never donned a bulletproof vest in any of the ride alongs he's done before."

Ward 7 Councillor Mammoliti, "put on a bulletproof vest before getting into a squad car with officers."
http://www.iheartradio.ca/newstalk-1010/news/tory-mammoliti-go-on-ride-alongs-with-police-friday-evening-1.4162037

Councillor Mammoliti has suggested the army should be called in to his ward. ( The army has not been called in to Metro since the 1999 snowstorm. )
https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=phtTW6S2HsbAjwSV9pboCA&q=mammoliti+army&oq=mammoliti+army&gs_l=psy-ab.3..35i39k1.1719.11707.0.13143.15.14.0.0.0.0.436.3333.0j4j2j3j3.12.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..3.12.3323.0..0j0i67k1j0i131i67k1j0i131k1j0i20i263k1j0i10k1j0i22i30k1j0i22i10i30k1.0.xgXpJPCej4k

Councillor Mammoliti once ran for mayor. But, dropped out after registering no more than 4% in public opinion polls.








Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: pbi on July 21, 2018, 08:15:48
Quote
Borough of North York divisions started with a 3. ( That would include Jane and Finch. )

OK, I got the Div number wrong. But my point remains: the Jane-Finch problem is an old one, and seems to have gotten worse.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 21, 2018, 20:36:35
But my point remains: the Jane-Finch problem is an old one, and seems to have gotten worse.

I'm not an expert. This is just my opinion.

Metro Police deployed heavily into the Jane-Finch corridor, and other hot spots, because, "That is where the crime is." 

Quieter neighbourhoods complained they were paying for protection that was going elsewhere.

Why so much crime in the Jane - Finch community?  Sociological problems, education, DNA....who knows?  Most victims were fellow minorities, who appreciated and strongly supported Metro Police.  The Jane and Finch community supported police pay raises and benefits. And Metro police gave them the best service they could. 

Over the years, Toronto police culture seems to have changed from aggressively pursuing criminals to laying back in police cars, taking careful and lengthy reports.

When were you safer, taxpayers, then or now...?

See Carding (police policy)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carding_(police_policy)
"Carding, which is officially known as the Community Contacts Policy, is an intelligence gathering policy of the Toronto Police Service involving the stopping, questioning, and documenting of individuals when no particular offence is being investigated."





Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: pbi on July 22, 2018, 10:00:59
Quote
Metro Police deployed heavily into the Jane-Finch corridor, and other hot spots, because, "That is where the crime is." 
Makes sense to me.

Quote
Quieter neighbourhoods complained they were paying for protection that was going elsewhere.

I think that would be a very narrow-minded response by people. For example, in my neighbourhood in west Kingston, I hardly ever see a cruiser unless it's called. But I know very well that Kingston has other neighbourhoods where there are calls every day and night, and a much higher police presence. (I volunteer with Victim Services, so I see a bit of it.)

 But, to me, that's fine. Why would the police deploy their very limited resources and time in places where there is little demand? I don't want to see a cruiser wasted on a daily patrol of my quiet street, when I know there's only a few of them out there at all.

To me, it's like the Fire Department. As a property owner I pay the fire tax, but I've never had a fire call at my house. But I'm very happy that my fire tax pays for responses to places that do have fires, or medical calls, or gas leaks, or whatever. We all pay for the service, and we get it when we need it.

Quote
Why so much crime in the Jane - Finch community?  Sociological problems, education, DNA....who knows?  Most victims were fellow minorities, who appreciated and strongly supported Metro Police.  The Jane and Finch community supported police pay raises and benefits. And Metro police gave them the best service they could. 

This is the question I'm asking: why? And yes, I agree that there are thousands of decent citizens in Jane-Finch, and Scarborough, and Brampton who would like it all to just end so they can get on with life, and irritating people like me will stop asking these questions. I would guess that every ethnic community in this country that has gone through a violent phase also had lots of members who just wanted normal lives.

Those people aren't the problem, but I think they could be part of a solution. The police can't do it alone. They're just one instrument towards a solution
Quote
Over the years, Toronto police culture seems to have changed from aggressively pursuing criminals to laying back in police cars, taking careful and lengthy reports.
That seems like a bit of a broadside into the police. I will be the first one to say that there are things about police culture in Canada today which concern me, but to blame the police for the restrictions and burdens placed on them by an ever-mounting pile of regulations, procedures, laws, etc doesn't seem right to me. A police officer I knew in Thunder Bay told me that on average, with all the reporting and paperwork involved, on a typical shift they could handle about 3 or 4 incidents and then their shift was over. Much of their day was spent writing things. And that was back before I left 38 CBG in 2005.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: EpicBeardedMan on July 22, 2018, 10:14:47

I think that would be a very narrow-minded response by people. For example, in my neighbourhood in west Kingston, I hardly ever see a cruiser unless it's called. But I know very well that Kingston has other neighbourhoods where there are calls every day and night, and a much higher police presence. (I volunteer with Victim Services, so I see a bit of it.)

 But, to me, that's fine. Why would the police deploy their very limited resources and time in places where there is little demand? I don't want to see a cruiser wasted on a daily patrol of my quiet street, when I know there's only a few of them out there at all.


Police Dispatcher here, you'd be surprised (maybe not)of the ignorance from the general public when it comes to police and where they should or shouldn't be. For example the general public thinks that parking a unit all day and night at a park to deter teenagers from goofing off and smoking in said park is totally a valid use of that officers time and cost, instead of dealing with higher priority calls in the area, such as assaults, domestics, gun crime, etc.

Kind of funny but I'd rather deal with our "frequent flyers" and emergency call situations than deal with the general public (as much as I love putting in multiple calls a day for stuff like, "I smell marijuana from next door" or people calling on 911 for them losing their phone 2 weeks ago, or because the hotel they are at has different prices than what was advertised online, etc) for petty and dumb crap.

The way that police are spread out are in quadrants or "zones" as we call them. There are so many units per zone. No less than 2 officers per call at minimum unless its a belated incident and something like "Yeah, my car was broken into last night..he left behind his ID" and most of the time those types of calls get put through to an alternate response unit that deals specifically with belated incidents with no suspects. Unless specifically sent to walk a beat, there are no "areas" that officers are forced to go to, if they are doing pro-active policing then sure they'll sit on a particular street if they arent put on a call but most of the time they just drive around until being placed on a call.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 22, 2018, 10:27:35
I was doing a quick read of the Jane and Finch stuff. I came across an article saying that the problems started when there was a population boom. The area went from 3000 to 30'000 very quickly, too quickly for the infrastructure to cope with and it's never recovered. Foreshadowing for our refugee crisis in Toronto perhaps?





Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 22, 2018, 10:46:46
That seems like a bit of a broadside into the police.

Wasn't meant to be. My uncle served on the Metro Force for many years.

Just that I believe times have changed in Toronto policing from what I remember. As they have in so many other things.
 
As a member of an allied service, my memories of Metro Police are from the 1972-2009 era. As for what has been going on for the last nine+ years, all I know about that is what I see on CP24 and read in the papers.

But, from my memories of the early 1970's, it was almost as though Metro's unofficial credo was, "Give no slack and take no crap from anyone. Confront and command. Control the streets at all times. Always be aggressive. Stop crimes before they happen. Seek them out. Shake them down. Make that arrest. And never, never admit the department has done anything wrong."
https://www.amazon.com/Protect-Serve-Century-Domanick-1994-11-03/dp/B01F9FVDY2


This is from 1996 and concerns the decline in LAPD arrests. It may, or may not, have some relevance for Metro,

Riordan Orders Report on Plunge in LAPD Arrests
http://articles.latimes.com/1996-03-15/local/me-47313_1_lapd-arrests
"It was vexing and surprising to learn that the LAPD is now making 100,000 fewer arrests, issuing over 200,000 fewer citations and conducting over 20,000 fewer field interviews per year."

"Field interviews" is what "carding" is known as in Toronto,

QUOTE

June 28, 2018

Toronto area police chief faults new Ontario restrictions on carding for rise in violent crime
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-toronto-area-police-chief-faults-new-ontario-restrictions-on-carding/
"Carding is the controversial police practice of collecting information about people they stop to question. Although it has been found to disproportionately target people of colour, some police officers argue they have lost a necessary investigative tool.

END QUOTE

Again, speaking of LAPD, this may, or may not, have some relevance to productivity in Metro,

"In the 1960s, our 3,400 policemen (our Civil Service rank) arrested 100,000 more criminals than do today's 10,000."

LT. MAX  K. HURLBUT LAPD
Retired from the “Golden Era” of the LAPD.
2010

Sorry for not providing Metro's productivity statistics for comparison, but I know they are out there. If anyone is interested.






Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 22, 2018, 11:04:22
Quote from: mariomike
Toronto area police chief faults new Ontario restrictions on carding for rise in violent crime
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-toronto-area-police-chief-faults-new-ontario-restrictions-on-carding/
"Carding is the controversial police practice of collecting information about people they stop to question. Although it has been found to disproportionately target people of colour, some police officers argue they have lost a necessary investigative tool.


Loaded question but what if this is because in a given area people of colour are the primary guilty parties?

If it's noticed 24 out of 25 people committing crimes have an identifiable thing going on should police not single them out more? Or better to turn a blind eye to that?



London UK used to have a stop and search thing going on where police could stop and search someone 'at random' It was found too that POCs were singled out more and people screamed racism and the practice stopped. With the recent apparent epidemic of stabbings and murders I read the mayor is talking about bringing stop and search back.



Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 22, 2018, 11:14:44
Loaded question but what if this is because in a given area people of colour are the primary guilty parties?

Race has always been a hot potato in Metro. As it is in other municipalities, I suppose.

QUOTE

Aug. 17, 2015

Twenty-six years ago, a staff inspector by the name of Julian Fantino — future Toronto police chief — sat in a small committee room and delivered a slew of explosive race-based crime statistics focused on the Jane-Finch neighbourhood.

Fantino, then head of 31 Division, told North York’s committee on community, race and ethnic relations that, while blacks made up 6 per cent of the Jane-Finch population, they accounted for 82 per cent of robberies and muggings, 55 per cent of purse-snatchings and 51 per cent of drug offences in the previous year.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/08/17/a-thorny-history-of-race-based-statistics.html
Police in Ontario were forbidden to compile race-based crime statistics.
Police chief Jack Marks insisted the force did not keep race stats.

END QUOTE
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: pbi on July 25, 2018, 13:58:19
Race has always been a hot potato in Metro. As it is in other municipalities, I suppose.

QUOTE

Aug. 17, 2015

...Fantino, then head of 31 Division, told North York’s committee on community, race and ethnic relations that, while blacks made up 6 per cent of the Jane-Finch population, they accounted for 82 per cent of robberies and muggings, 55 per cent of purse-snatchings and 51 per cent of drug offences in the previous year...

OK, it was 31 Div not 13 Div. :D :D

But this is what I mean: there is a community-centric problem. How can anybody in their right mind say there isn't? This is not new, at all, just worse. The question that needs to be answered, IMHO, is why that community is so over represented in violent criminal activity, especially gun homicides?

Is it racist police?  A biased court system? A bad education system? Lack of employment opportunities? Cultural baggage? Cultural glorification of violence-based masculinity? Whatever it is, it clearly does not apply across all non-white, non-European communities in the GTA. If it did, the GTA would be a blood-soaked inferno.

Putting more cops at the coal face, and bringing back carding (or an equivalent tool) will probably provide some relief. But neither will really get at "why?", and that IMHO is what is needed.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Xylric on July 25, 2018, 14:06:20
I recall a study done in Baltimore some years back that found a remarkable connection between an area's crime rate and the relative tree coverage of that area.

The only crime that increased with greater amounts of tree coverage was burglary, which just makes sense.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0169204612000977

How many trees are in the Jane-Finch area, again?
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Colin P on July 25, 2018, 15:09:48
Sadly the fear of race issue, throws all the law abiding people of that race under the bus, because they are at the mercy of the gangs, because the police are restrained from doing anything. Plus the politicians won't take any direct action for the same reason.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 25, 2018, 17:04:54
OK, it was 31 Div not 13 Div. :D :D

All I know about the Jane-Finch corridor now is what I see on CP24, and read on here.  :)

But, I agree, it has been a troubled community for many years.

eg: They were dropping garbage cans at us off the high-rise balconies at the Jane and Falstaff in the Metropolitan Toronto Housing Authority ( MTHA ) projects.

Not being police, our options were limited.

A very good friend of mine, Rick Boustead RIP, took it upon himself to meet with some residents of the community about what we could do to perhaps ease tensions a little bit.

Rick\s solution was to start a Children’s Breakfast Club in that project.
http://breakfastclubs.ca/our-club/rick-boustead-breakfast-club/

This was back in 1984. Now, there's over 20 Children's Breakfast Clubs in Metro Housing projects. But, Rick's was the first.

Not being police, I know a Children's Breakfast Club does not make a dramatic difference. But, 35 years later it's still there.
Maybe it did some good over those years.

I recall a study done in Baltimore some years back that found a remarkable connection between an area's crime rate and the relative tree coverage of that area.

Maybe Baltimore is on to something. There are lots of big old oak trees and sakura in our neighbourhood. It's very hilly. We have the river on the west, the lake on the south, and Grenadier Pond, and a smaller catfish pond, and a 400 acre park ( one third of the park remains in a natural state ) on the east.

If it were not for Bloor West Village and the subway on the north, you feel in complete isolation to the rest of the city. 

How many trees are in the Jane-Finch area, again?

That's another thing Rick did. He helped those Jane-Finch kids plant gardens in their community, and around the west-end. I remember seeing them plant flower gardens. Not sure about trees.




Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 25, 2018, 20:01:57
Refugees are being kicked out of dormitories since school's starting and put up in hotels for an indefinite period of time since there's no housing available and no real plan.  Got some nice hotels downtown, good stuff.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 27, 2018, 02:05:38
Thank god for Doug Ford.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.thestar.com/amp/news/cannabis/2018/07/26/doug-ford-set-to-privatize-legal-cannabis-sales-reports-say.html

Quote
According to the reports, the Tory government will allow legal cannabis to be sold in private stores.

Vice News states that sources close to Premier Doug Ford’s government are planning to overturn the previous Liberal government’s decision for a monopoly on cannabis sales via the Liquor Control Board of Ontario.

“We’ll have more to say in the near future,” said a source in Premier Doug Ford’s office.

Provincial Finance Minister Vic Fedeli and Attorney-General Caroline Mulroney are expected to announce the new plans next week, according to a report in the Globe and Mail.

The report notes the new plan will mirror the Alberta model, which allows for privately owned stores to sell marijuana if they carry a license from the liquor commision.



If you're going go sell pot, do it right,  and reap the windfall
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Remius on July 27, 2018, 13:20:22

Interesting and somewhat unexpected move by the Premier.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/tory-ford-city-council-statements-1.4763890

I don't know too much about the city council dynamic in TO to have an informed opinion on whether this is a good move or not.

Less government is good.  I'm not so sure about less representation though. 
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 27, 2018, 15:24:05
I don't know too much about the city council dynamic in TO to have an informed opinion on whether this is a good move or not.

I vote in Ward 13. So, I'll offer my ( uninformed ) opinion, for what it is worth to the discussion.

I'm not surprised. But, as a courtesy, it would have been nice for Doug to have informed Toronto voters of his plan before asking us to vote for him.

One more reason I wish the city could go its own way ( amicably ) from the Province of Ontario.

Our city election is on Oct. 22, 2018.

So, imagine if Prime Minister Trudeau announced three months before the upcoming federal election that he decided to cut the House of Commons in half.

Although the population of Toronto has grown a lot since 1998, we had more than 100 politicians back then.

That number fell to 57. Now it is 44. They had just been increased to 47 wards.

Doug is bring it down to 25.

That's one-quarter what we had in 1998, with the same geographic boundary, and smaller population.

The cut will save $110,000 per councillor per year out of an $11 billion-dollar annual budget.

I don't expect Ford Nation to have a lot of love for the city after taking away Rob's mayoral powers, or Doug's defeat by John Tory in the mayoral election.

Speaking of which, Mel Lastman's son changed his mind about running for mayor. But, with just minutes left to register, the city's former chief planner Jennifer Keesmaat is running for mayor.

That makes it a whole new ball game!  :)

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Rifleman62 on July 27, 2018, 15:31:10
Quote
So, imagine if Prime Minister Trudeau announced three months before the upcoming federal election that he decided to cut the House of Commons in half.

If he did that, I would support it. Plus the Senate.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Remius on July 27, 2018, 15:34:40
If he did that, I would support it. Plus the Senate.

it would be more akin to the PM telling Alberta to cut its MLAs by half.


Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 27, 2018, 15:35:53
If he did that, I would support it. Plus the Senate.

Maybe I would too. Maybe a lot of people would.

But, would there not be a referendum?

it would be more akin to the PM telling Alberta to cut its MLAs by half.

That's a better example than mine was.

I picked Welland randomly and found that the city has 6 councillors for a city of just over 52,000 people, or one councillor per 8,667 people. Woodstock has 6 for over 38,000 or one per 6,333 people. With 25 councillors in Toronto, each councillor would represent 116,000 residents.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: kratz on July 27, 2018, 15:47:47
Local government is not recognized under our constitution, so comparing the cuts in Toronto with a Provincial or Federal cut is an apple to oranges comparison.
Premier Ford can  make the cuts, as afforded provincial jurisdiction.

Suggestions to cut Provincial, Federal or Senate seats, or add a new province would all take a change to the constitution.
With the current crop of politicians, does anyone trust another Meech Lake referendum to hold the country together?     :Tin-Foil-Hat:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: PuckChaser on July 27, 2018, 17:47:59
I picked Welland randomly and found that the city has 6 councillors for a city of just over 52,000 people, or one councillor per 8,667 people. Woodstock has 6 for over 38,000 or one per 6,333 people. With 25 councillors in Toronto, each councillor would represent 116,000 residents.

Geography plays into the equation as well. Renfrew Country has 1 MP and 1 MPP to represent 102,000 people, but has only 9 people per Sq KM. With the amount of towns covered in the riding, it would be completely impractical to just declare the whole riding as 1 city with only 1 councillor allowed. Meanwhile, Toronto has 4,400 people per Sq KM meaning that each councillor (within the 25 limit) only has a 26 Sq KM ward. With the current system, Toronto has a councillor for roughly every 12.5 Sq KM. That's a whole lot of overhead for very little tangible gain.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: dapaterson on July 27, 2018, 17:51:25
Geography plays into the equation as well. Renfrew Country has 1 MP and 1 MPP to represent 102,000 people, but has only 9 people per Sq KM. With the amount of towns covered in the riding, it would be completely impractical to just declare the whole riding as 1 city with only 1 councillor allowed. Meanwhile, Toronto has 4,400 people per Sq KM meaning that each councillor (within the 25 limit) only has a 26 Sq KM ward. With the current system, Toronto has a councillor for roughly every 12.5 Sq KM. That's a whole lot of overhead for very little tangible gain.

So we can build an infantry section with one Sgt and 54 Cpl/Ptes?  Or is there some size at which communication falls apart, and smaller organizational structures are needed?
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: PuckChaser on July 27, 2018, 18:16:02
So we can build an infantry section with one Sgt and 54 Cpl/Ptes?  Or is there some size at which communication falls apart, and smaller organizational structures are needed?

Apples and Oranges. I said both geographical and population density need to be covered.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: FJAG on July 27, 2018, 18:21:33
Interesting and somewhat unexpected move by the Premier.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/tory-ford-city-council-statements-1.4763890

I don't know too much about the city council dynamic in TO to have an informed opinion on whether this is a good move or not.

Less government is good.  I'm not so sure about less representation though.

I used to belong to a governing board that had over forty members and we restructured it down to just over twenty. The number of constituents represented wasn't ever the issue. The issue was that with over forty members we were dysfunctional getting wrapped around the axle for lengthy periods of time debating ridiculously small current issues rather than concentrating on the big picture, future looking things. IMHO, forty seven is too unwieldy; smaller board with a good administrative staff that can focus discussions is greatly preferable. That said, the way this was sprung on the city as a whole is less than optimal.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 27, 2018, 18:24:35
Premier Ford can  make the cuts, as afforded provincial jurisdiction .

Funny how days like today remind you of things.

We got our first lesson in provincial jurisdiction when I was 12.

Against the wishes of many local citizens, our village, an official Village, was amalgamated into the City of Toronto, by order of the Province of Ontario.

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Thucydides on July 27, 2018, 18:39:15
As an interesting counterpoint, consider the amount of traffic discussions on the size and numbers of Headquarters, GOFO's etc. generate on other threads, and how the almost universal consensus is we would be far better off streamlining the organization and reducing headcounts. Even the arguments about how many councillors/constituent seem very familiar, how many servicemenber/GOFO do we consider an acceptable ratio?

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 27, 2018, 20:30:34
When Doug made his announcement today, former Chief City Planner of Toronto from 2012 to 2017, Jennifer Keesmaat, rushed down to City Hall to register for the mayoral race just minutes before the 2 p.m. deadline.

She Tweeted one word: "Secession."
https://twitter.com/jen_keesmaat/status/1022674165063733249

After four years of peace, CP24 shows City Hall in chaos tonight. Deja vu 2010 - 2014.

In the middle of an election.

The people of Toronto went through a year and a half process to decide their ward boudaries. It was inclusive. There were four years of studies and consultations.

Then this announcement from Queen's Park two hours before registration closes.

Renfrew Country has 1 MP and 1 MPP to represent 102,000 people, but has only 9 people per Sq KM.

We are comparing municipal wards to provincial and federal ridings?
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: PuckChaser on July 28, 2018, 14:28:30
We are comparing municipal wards to provincial and federal ridings?

Considering that's exactly how the Premier is framing his rationale for reducing councillors, its topical. You also missed the remainder of the post, which was more about geographical size of the ridings. Toronto is likely one of the few municipalities that this sort of cut would work on, because of the density of the population.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 28, 2018, 16:36:01
Ottawa has 23 councillors,  with less than half of the population of toronto,  yet ford says he has no plans to change the number of councillors in ottawa.

Very much a settling of scores by a scorned politician.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 28, 2018, 18:56:10
Ottawa has 23 councillors,  with less than half of the population of toronto,  yet ford says he has no plans to change the number of councillors in ottawa.

Very much a settling of scores by a scorned politician.

Ottawa has 41,000 per ward councillor.

Toronto will have 109,000 per ward councillor.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/toronto/article-ford-upends-toronto-ward-system-ahead-of-fall-municipal-elections/


Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: PuckChaser on July 28, 2018, 19:54:51
Ottawa has 41,000 per ward councillor.

Toronto will have 109,000 per ward councillor.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/toronto/article-ford-upends-toronto-ward-system-ahead-of-fall-municipal-elections/

Did you read my post at all, or just completely miss the point and cherry pick a quote? Ottawa's land area is almost 5 times the size of Toronto. Geography has to play a major role in number of councillors/MPPs/MPs as well. There's dimishing returns when your councillor is responsible for a massive area. You're telling me that Toronto councillors will be hard done by to represent 26 sq KM areas, instead of 12.5 sq KM? Meanwhile, if the City of Ottawa follows the new Toronto model, they go from roughly 100 sq KM wards to 330 sq KM wards.

Also in the "hell must have froze over" category, Doug Ford is taking the lead from the Toronto Star, after this editorial in 2014 stated that Toronto should have 1 councillor per federal/provincial riding: https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/11/19/torontos_dysfunctional_city_hall_needs_reform.html (https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/11/19/torontos_dysfunctional_city_hall_needs_reform.html)

They've really flipped since then: https://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2018/07/27/doug-ford-spits-in-the-face-of-toronto.html (https://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2018/07/27/doug-ford-spits-in-the-face-of-toronto.html)
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 28, 2018, 20:57:54
Puckchaser,

I was replying to Altair.  I posted my source.

Here it is again,

QUOTE

The Canadian Press

THE GLOBE AND MAIL

July 26, 2018

APPROXIMATE POPULATION PER COUNCILLOR

Toronto (25 councillors) 109,000

Ottawa (23 councillors)  41,000
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/toronto/article-ford-upends-toronto-ward-system-ahead-of-fall-municipal-elections/

END QUOTE

Doug Ford is taking the lead from the Toronto Star, after this editorial in 2014 stated that Toronto should have 1 councillor per federal/provincial riding: https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/11/19/torontos_dysfunctional_city_hall_needs_reform.html (https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/11/19/torontos_dysfunctional_city_hall_needs_reform.html)

No Puckchaser. That is not an "editorial".

That is an "Opinion •Commentary".

This is also an "Opinion •Commentary". In the very same Toronto Star. Two days before the link you selected to post,

QUOTE

"Downsizing city council doesn't make sense"
Nov. 17, 2014
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/11/17/downsizing_city_council_doesnt_make_sense.html

END QUOTE

"Opinion •Commentary" are not editorials.

THIS, is the Toronto Star editorial,

QUOTE

Star Editorial Board

Fri., July 27, 2018

Doug Ford spits in the face of Toronto
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2018/07/27/doug-ford-spits-in-the-face-of-toronto.html

END QUOTE





Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 28, 2018, 22:42:53
Ottawa has 41,000 per ward councillor.

Toronto will have 109,000 per ward councillor.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/toronto/article-ford-upends-toronto-ward-system-ahead-of-fall-municipal-elections/
With the premier of toronto in charge,  I think Quebec is going to be seen as the responsible and stable province regardless of the winner in October.

Also,  as a comparison,  montreal has 65 councillor, and it works out to something around 29-30 thousand per councillor.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 29, 2018, 00:07:39
With the premier of toronto in charge,  I think Quebec is going to be seen as the responsible and stable province regardless of the winner in October.

Also,  as a comparison,  montreal has 65 councillor, and it works out to something around 29-30 thousand per councillor.

An Opinion - Commentary. Not an editorial.

QUOTE

Doug Ford will have his revenge on Toronto. We did not vote for him for mayor, we did not — the majority of us — vote for him for premier, and so now he will mess us up. Because he can, and because many of his loudest supporters in other parts of the province like nothing more than to see us get the high hard one, and many more of his loudest supporters think the entire apparatus of government is useless and should be burned to the ground.

London, England has only 25 members for a population of more than eight million people. But that city also has 32 elected borough councils, many with more than 50 or even 70 members, and each of those has its own mayor. He also noted that Los Angeles has only 15 councillors and a mayor, but failed to mention the 97 neighbourhood councils that are part of its government structure. Chicago, about the size of Toronto, has 50 councillors, a mayor, and an elected clerk and treasurer — slightly larger than the body Toronto would have had after this election. New York City, between its city council, its community boards, and its borough presidents, has more than 3,000 politicians running it.
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZyAaWNyXAZ8J:https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/07/27/fords-move-to-slash-toronto-council-without-consultation-an-undemocratic-move.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

END QUOTE








Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Journeyman on July 29, 2018, 09:59:57
Quote
Editorial
noun
A newspaper article expressing the editor's opinion on a topical issue.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/editorial

False dichotomy:  An editorial is  an opinion piece.


Back to the latest political 'he said - she said'   :salute:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: ModlrMike on July 29, 2018, 11:57:13
Wait... the Red Star had an opinion piece critical of a Conservative politician? When did that start?  :facepalm:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 29, 2018, 12:47:34
Wait... the Red Star had an opinion piece critical of a Conservative politician? When did that start?  :facepalm:

Like it or not, the Toronto Star has the highest circulation of any daily newspaper in Canada.

Higher than the Globe and Mail.

Higher than the National Post and the Toronto Sun combined.




Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on July 29, 2018, 13:53:28
Incorrect, my Padiwan learner.  ;D

Top: Globe and Mail.

And just about equal to the other two you named taken together (though neither of them is the next or even the two next most circulated dailies in Toronto. Those honours go to the 24 Hours Toronto and Metro Toronto, which together exceed the Star's readership by 30%.

http://www.cision.ca/trends/canadas-top-20-daily-newspapers/

And, BTW, all proportions kept, the next two top papers (after the G&M and TorStar) beat the hell out of everybody for readership: La Presse and the Journal de Montreal come in at 300% higher circulation that the Globe and Mail (no.1 overall) when you adjust to consider that it addresses itself to only 25% of the population of Canada, as opposed to the G&M addressing itself to the other 75%.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 29, 2018, 14:15:59
Incorrect, my Padiwan learner.  ;D

Top: Globe and Mail.

Thanks, OGBD.  :)

My source was,

Daily Newspaper Circulation Report 2015
https://nmc-mic.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2015-Daily-Newspaper-Circulation-Report-REPORT_FINAL.pdf

Based on 2015 statistics, the Toronto Star is Canada's highest-circulation newspaper on overall weekly circulation. Although it is a close second to The Globe and Mail in daily circulation on weekdays, it overtakes the Globe in weekly circulation with both its Saturday and Sunday editions, especially given that the Globe does not publish Sunday editions.


Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 29, 2018, 15:03:53
Like it or not
Sage advice for Torontonians who aren't happy about the election.

Ontario was so tired of the Liberals they aren't even a recognized party at this time. Perhaps if Torontonians were a little more cognizant of the bigger picture they could have leaned in a different direction and possibly save themselves some angst.

Ford isn't just kicking cans down the road he's picking them up and moving them. Maybe it's good maybe it's bad but it's pretty clear Ontario wanted change and that's what he's doing and for good or for ill that's what we're getting.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: YZT580 on July 29, 2018, 17:35:39
Smart politics actually.  Clean house and get all the questionable stuff over with during the first year of your mandate and then spend the next 3 years dealing with less touchy subjects.  Peoples' memories don't normally last 4 years; they will only remember the last 12 months or so.  Wynn is a prime example.  Her bad press simply got worse in the last year of her government.  There was no time to forget.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Cloud Cover on July 30, 2018, 06:12:03
The established bureaucracy at QP would have had a lot to do with this. There's no way Ford rolled into office and just issued this whopping command out all by himself.  It's probably true that the provincial knives are out and after every whining councilor who has caused them grief since 2003.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 30, 2018, 11:04:45
Smart politics actually.  Clean house and get all the questionable stuff over with during the first year of your mandate and then spend the next 3 years dealing with less touchy subjects.  Peoples' memories don't normally last 4 years; they will only remember the last 12 months or so.  Wynn is a prime example.  Her bad press simply got worse in the last year of her government.  There was no time to forget.
Depends.

Sometimes people get really angry about Premiers unilaterally imposing their will on their local municipalities and then vote for the party who says they will restore the status quo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_municipal_referendums,_2004
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Fishbone Jones on July 30, 2018, 11:38:19
You can't hold up Quebec as some sort of standard. They are totally out of step with the rest of the country. Always will be. It's their nature. :rofl:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 30, 2018, 13:10:03
(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/37922814_10160673114200593_4863351933533945856_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=402a9af871dc30c04ddd27e918a4dfc0&oe=5BC9F17D)
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 30, 2018, 13:31:05
(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/37922814_10160673114200593_4863351933533945856_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=402a9af871dc30c04ddd27e918a4dfc0&oe=5BC9F17D)
There are about 7500 people working for the TPS, 5200 police officers, where are TCC is losing 22 of 47 city Councillors.

Not sure that is the best comparison.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 30, 2018, 13:35:21
No?

What's going to protect Toronto from criminals , 22 council members or 800 police officers?

Just consider the cuts "modernization".
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Baden Guy on July 30, 2018, 13:36:01
"Premier Doug Ford’s bombshell move to cut the size of Toronto city council nearly in half is a win for the suburbs, one sure to penalize people living in the downtown core, say political experts.

“The media keeps calling this a reform. That’s a mistake,” said Roger Keil, a professor and former director of the City Institute at York University. “This is gerrymandering: changing political boundaries in order to favour the party in power. It is a very blatant attempt to change the rules of the game so the opposition can’t win.”

In the current 44-seat council, suburban councillors held the balance of power, said Evrim Delen, a political consultant and former campaign staffer for 2014 mayoral candidate David Soknacki. After a four-year consultation, Torontonians were poised to elect 47 councillors this October in a redistricting that would add three downtown seats and equalize downtown and suburban representation.

“The 25-seat council definitely takes us back to the suburban advantage,” Delen said. “It brings us back to the time of downtown under-representation.”

The four-year consultation that recommended a 47-seat council dismissed the 25-seat option because downtown wouldn’t have enough representation. City staff explored adding a 26th downtown ward, but this plan was dismissed because it “does not achieve voter parity” and “capacity to represent” — or the number of constituents per city councillor — would be “reduced significantly,” according to the final report of the Toronto Ward Boundary Review."

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2018/07/28/how-does-the-urban-suburban-divide-play-out-in-a-25-seat-toronto-council.html
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 30, 2018, 14:11:57
No?

What's going to protect Toronto from criminals , 22 council members or 800 police officers?

Just consider the cuts "modernization".
Comparing cutting 15 percent of the force, compared to 46 percent of the city council is really not the same thing.

I mean, sure, lets use your logic, and have the Premier eliminate the City of Toronto completely and have it run by the province(actually within his power to do).

Only 47 councillors and 1 mayor positions are eliminated, compared to 800 police officers.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 30, 2018, 14:25:40
"Premier Doug Ford’s bombshell move to cut the size of Toronto city council nearly in half is a win for the suburbs, one sure to penalize people living in the downtown core, say political experts.

“The media keeps calling this a reform. That’s a mistake,” said Roger Keil, a professor and former director of the City Institute at York University. “This is gerrymandering: changing political boundaries in order to favour the party in power. It is a very blatant attempt to change the rules of the game so the opposition can’t win.”

In the current 44-seat council, suburban councillors held the balance of power, said Evrim Delen, a political consultant and former campaign staffer for 2014 mayoral candidate David Soknacki. After a four-year consultation, Torontonians were poised to elect 47 councillors this October in a redistricting that would add three downtown seats and equalize downtown and suburban representation.

“The 25-seat council definitely takes us back to the suburban advantage,” Delen said. “It brings us back to the time of downtown under-representation.”

The four-year consultation that recommended a 47-seat council dismissed the 25-seat option because downtown wouldn’t have enough representation. City staff explored adding a 26th downtown ward, but this plan was dismissed because it “does not achieve voter parity” and “capacity to represent” — or the number of constituents per city councillor — would be “reduced significantly,” according to the final report of the Toronto Ward Boundary Review."

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2018/07/28/how-does-the-urban-suburban-divide-play-out-in-a-25-seat-toronto-council.html
Yup. Can't win the mayoral race, that's fine, with the provincial one and make the rules as such that Toronto elects ford Nation in their next election.

Best way to take out your political rivals.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 30, 2018, 14:26:01
Comparing cutting 15 percent of the force, compared to 46 percent of the city council is really not the same thing.

I mean, sure, lets use your logic, and have the Premier eliminate the City of Toronto completely and have it run by the province(actually within his power to do).

Only 47 councillors and 1 mayor positions are eliminated, compared to 800 police officers.

I like the way you think. Maybe put the chief of police in charge of the city, you know, until we can get this crime stuff under wraps.

Maybe you can answer this in layman's terms. What does a city councillor do? What impact will reducing these positions really have?

MarioMike has pointed out numerous times here that Toronto can't install a speed bump without a bunch of permissions. Do they need 47 councillors if they don't even have the ability to get speed bumps installed in a quick and timely manner? Will less councillors mean a more streamlined system with less administration headache or will it double the required amount of effort? What do these men and women actually do?
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 30, 2018, 14:40:55
I like the way you think. Maybe put the chief of police in charge of the city, you know, until we can get this crime stuff under wraps.

Maybe you can answer this in layman's terms. What does a city councillor do? What impact will reducing these positions really have?

MarioMike has pointed out numerous times here that Toronto can't install a speed bump without a bunch of permissions. Do they need 47 councillors if they don't even have the ability to get speed bumps installed in a quick and timely manner? Will less councillors mean a more streamlined system with less administration headache or will it double the required amount of effort? What do these men and women actually do?
I do not know what the Goldilocks number is for any major city, western cities seem to get away with less, eastern cities and Quebec usually more, and in the end, the level of services from each varies greatly, both within Canada and within the same province. I do think that Toronto should probably have a little more than 2 more councillors than the city of Ottawa, but what the perfect number is, hard to say.

 What I will say is that it's would probably be best for the citizens of Toronto to decide what is best for them, than the Premier of Ontario. After living through the agglomeration process in Quebec, and how a Premier rammed that process down the throats of municipalities without consultation or regard for what the citizens wanted, I will never side with a Premier deciding that they know better than the citizens of the city.

He should just hold a referendum on it, but I doubt he will.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 30, 2018, 15:08:38
Anyone concerned about emergency services in Toronto during the Ford Nation era,

Toronto's emergency services unions negotiate with City Hall. Not Queen's Park.

"Toronto firefighters have scored a big victory over Mayor Rob Ford in their struggle for jobs and resources."
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/toronto-council-adds-to-fire-budget-in-big-win-for-firefighters-union/article7401182/

Doug Ford, firefighters union clash
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/04/19/doug_ford_firefighters_union_clash_over_fire_truck.html

The Toronto firefighters union has only ever endorsed one mayoral candidate in recent memory. That was David Miller.

They certainly did not endorse Rob, or Doug during his failed attempt to become mayor.

Toronto Police Chief accepts formal apology and retraction of previous comments from Councillor Doug Ford
https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2014/08/14/police_chief_bill_blair_to_address_media_today.html

"How Toronto police surveillance closed in on Rob Ford"
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/10/31/tracking_the_mayor_how_toronto_police_surveillance_closed_in_on_rob_ford.html

"'Closed by Rob Ford': Budget cuts close Toronto fire hall, four trucks taken out of service"
https://nationalpost.com/news/closed-by-rob-ford-budget-cuts-close-toronto-fire-hall-four-trucks-taken-out-of-service

Public safety in Toronto was so badly compromised during the Ford Nation era, that Council took away his power to govern during a State of Emergency in the City.

The vote passed 41-2, with only Rob and Doug Ford voting against it.

Taxpayers: Do you think Doug has forgotten that?

If Toronto voters had felt safer during the Ford Nation era, they would have elected Doug Ford instead of John Tory.

As to what Toronto councillors do, they oversee a $11.12 billion dollar annual budget and a 10-year capital budget and plan of $25.98 billion.

How many does it take to run a city?

QUOTE

London, England has only 25 members for a population of more than eight million people. But that city also has 32 elected borough councils, many with more than 50 or even 70 members, and each of those has its own mayor. He also noted that Los Angeles has only 15 councillors and a mayor, but failed to mention the 97 neighbourhood councils that are part of its government structure. Chicago, about the size of Toronto, has 50 councillors, a mayor, and an elected clerk and treasurer — slightly larger than the body Toronto would have had after this election. New York City, between its city council, its community boards, and its borough presidents, has more than 3,000 politicians running it.
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZyAaWNyXAZ8J:https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/07/27/fords-move-to-slash-toronto-council-without-consultation-an-undemocratic-move.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

END QUOTE




Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 30, 2018, 15:13:25
I do not know what the Goldilocks number is for any major city, western cities seem to get away with less, eastern cities and Quebec usually more, and in the end, the level of services from each varies greatly, both within Canada and within the same province. I do think that Toronto should probably have a little more than 2 more councillors than the city of Ottawa, but what the perfect number is, hard to say.

So like myself you don't know exactly what councillers even do. It seems like you're basing your opinion on the idea that Toronto is bigger = they need more than Ottawa. But how does population size effect a councillers job? If 2 councilors can legitimately do the job that 4 are getting paid to do then cutting the number down to 2 is just streamlining, isn't it?

If there's a correlation that a certain number of citizens require a certain number of councillers then yea maybe it's a bad idea. I haven't seen a solid explanation why Toronto needs 47. I'm quite open minded to being wrong here.

Quote
What I will say is that it's would probably be best for the citizens of Toronto to decide what is best for them, than the Premier of Ontario. After living through the agglomeration process in Quebec, and how a Premier rammed that process down the throats of municipalities without consultation or regard for what the citizens wanted, I will never side with a Premier deciding that they know better than the citizens of the city.


It could be best if it's left up to the citizens of Toronto about how many councillors the have, true. That can also be taken advantage of too. Maybe they should bump those numbers up to 60, you know just to make sure everyone's covered. Wink wink.

I'm not exactly in the know how everything works in the military but I'm confident saying the CAF has a problem with too many councillers and not enough police, if you catch my drift.

PS I think I keep butchering how to spell councillor  :nod:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Remius on July 30, 2018, 15:29:29
So like myself you don't know exactly what councillers even do. It seems like you're basing your opinion on the idea that Toronto is bigger = they need more than Ottawa. But how does population size effect a councillers job? If 2 councilors can legitimately do the job that 4 are getting paid to do then cutting the number down to 2 is just streamlining, isn't it?

If there's a correlation that a certain number of citizens require a certain number of councillers then yea maybe it's a bad idea. I haven't seen a solid explanation why Toronto needs 47. I'm quite open minded to being wrong here.

:

I'm the same way.  I'm not sure how many is enough.  a combination of population and geographic responsibility I would hazard as a guess.

The role of city council is a legislative one.  Creating, developing policies, by-laws, city programs etc.  Voting on the budget, advocating for their constituents.  Being accountable etc.

Consider this though.  Municipal politics will have the greatest and direct impact on your day to day life.  It is likely the one level of government you would want to have the best representation at.  And councillors (in most of ontario) don't have a party system meaning that they truly do follow the wishes of their constituents.

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Fishbone Jones on July 30, 2018, 15:33:49
Did Ford not say that this would bring TO in line with the federal and provincial boundaries, instead of a bunch of willy nilly fiefdoms? I don't see a problem doing a reset for that reason.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 30, 2018, 15:35:55
And councillors (in most of ontario) don't have a party system meaning that they truly do follow the wishes of their constituents.

To paraphrase Mayor LaGuardia, there's no Liberal or Conservative way to fix a sewer.  :)
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 30, 2018, 15:36:49
So like myself you don't know exactly what councillers even do. It seems like you're basing your opinion on the idea that Toronto is bigger = they need more than Ottawa. But how does population size effect a councillers job? If 2 councilors can legitimately do the job that 4 are getting paid to do then cutting the number down to 2 is just streamlining, isn't it?
I am not the most familiar with the system Toronto has set up, I do know that I like the system Montreal has set up, and that Councillors in that city pull double duty in many cases, being both a representative of their Borough and Mayor of their municipality. As such, they have powers of taxation, their budgets, and how those tax dollars are used in their community, as well as having a say in how the greater Montreal area is run. And these Mayor/Councillors site on the montreal regional board for their municipality, they also have their own city Councillors to answer to who are not included in the 65 city councillors for the city of Montreal. For example, in DDO, a demerged city on the island of montreal, they have two spots on the Montreal city council, while having 8 councillors for the town of DDO itself. As a result, there is a lot of Councillors for montrealers to air their grievances to, and in general, in my experience, there are very fast response times to mail and emails about local issues.

Again, I am familiar with how montreal works, and the system is obviously different in Toronto. But it's kind of a open question if 25 Councillors can effectively represent 2.9 million people. 116 000 people for every councillor to be responsible for. if even 1 percent of them are emailing their representative a week, that's over a 1000 emails to respond to. Are these councillors getting increased staffing? Are they just working more overtime? Are they going to burn out and not even try to keep up anymore? Hard to say. Is it saving money? Probably not much.
Quote

If there's a correlation that a certain number of citizens require a certain number of councillers then yea maybe it's a bad idea. I haven't seen a solid explanation why Toronto needs 47. I'm quite open minded to being wrong here.

It could be best if it's left up to the citizens of Toronto about how many councillors the have, true. That can also be taken advantage of too. Maybe they should bump those numbers up to 60, you know just to make sure everyone's covered. Wink wink.
Maybe. Maybe not. But maybe a tad bit of consultation should have been done. Instead it's a top down, rammed through legislation, in the middle of a election campaign. The campaign began on may 7th. So I expect lawsuits from those running, wanting to be reimbursed for time off work, nomination fees, money spend campaigning. This isn't the way to do thing, but this is how it's being done.
Quote

I'm not exactly in the know how everything works in the military but I'm confident saying the CAF has a problem with too many councillers and not enough police, if you catch my drift.

PS I think I keep butchering how to spell councillor  :nod:
Yes, however just firing 46 percent of the officers in the CF without any idea how that would effect day to day running of the CF, operations, readiness, while not adding a single NCM wouldn't be the way you would fix things, is it?

Edit: DDO has 8 councillors, not 6.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 30, 2018, 15:43:39
Did Ford not say that this would bring TO in line with the federal and provincial boundaries, instead of a bunch of willy nilly fiefdoms? I don't see a problem doing a reset for that reason.
Don't buy that for a second.

Ottawa has 7 federal ridings.

Carleton-Mississippi Mills
Nepean-Carleton
Ottawa Centre
Ottawa-Orléans
Ottawa South
Ottawa-Vanier
Ottawa West-Nepean

They currently have 23 councillors. Ford has no plans to change the amount of councillors in Ottawa.

Hamilton has 5 federal ridings. They currently have 15 councillors + a mayor. No plans to change that.

Only Toronto. I wonder why? Probably because he didn't lose elections in these two municipalities.

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Remius on July 30, 2018, 15:59:58
The debate is hardly new.

This op ed from the Tor Star in 2014 was in favour of what Ford just did.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/11/19/torontos_dysfunctional_city_hall_needs_reform.html

it actually mentions matching it to federal ridings...
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 30, 2018, 16:02:49
The debate is hardly new.

This op ed from the Tor Star in 2014 was in favour of what Ford just did.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/11/19/torontos_dysfunctional_city_hall_needs_reform.html

it actually mentions matching it to federal ridings...
The solution is in the Article.

Montreal and New York have party systems.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 30, 2018, 17:32:07
This op ed from the Tor Star in 2014 was in favour of what Ford just did.
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/11/19/torontos_dysfunctional_city_hall_needs_reform.html

Same link Puckchaser posted in Reply #65.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/11/19/torontos_dysfunctional_city_hall_needs_reform.html (https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/11/19/torontos_dysfunctional_city_hall_needs_reform.html)

It is an "Opinion - Commentary" from an individual.

This is also an "Opinion - Commentary" from an individual. In the very same Toronto Star. Two days before the link you and Puckchaser selected to post,

QUOTE

"Downsizing city council doesn't make sense"
Nov. 17, 2014
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/11/17/downsizing_city_council_doesnt_make_sense.html

END QUOTE

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: PuckChaser on July 30, 2018, 17:56:38
Only Toronto. I wonder why? Probably because he didn't lose elections in these two municipalities.

Geography has to play a major role in number of councillors/MPPs/MPs as well. There's dimishing returns when your councillor is responsible for a massive area. You're telling me that Toronto councillors will be hard done by to represent 26 sq KM areas, instead of 12.5 sq KM? Meanwhile, if the City of Ottawa follows the new Toronto model, they go from roughly 100 sq KM wards to 330 sq KM wards.

Or you know, evil Tories.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 30, 2018, 18:04:11
Or you know, evil Tories.
population has way more to do with,  or should have way more to do with,  the number of councillors in a region.

How is a city councilor supposed to effectively represent around 115 000 constituents?  That is more people than most canadians municipalities which have a mayor and several councillors of their own.

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: PuckChaser on July 30, 2018, 18:15:46
How is a city councilor supposed to effectively represent around 115 000 constituents?

Its a lot easier when your ward is only 10KM wide vice 40 or 50 KM. When you cram 4,000 people in a sq KM, a lot of their issues are similar because most are living in multi-family apartments. One neighbourhood 10 KM away can have a completely different set of priorities than another when you're in the suburbs.

I have a feeling a lot of the councillors are more pissed about losing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dDfr89eRd0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dDfr89eRd0) than actually losing representation of their constituency.

At the end of the day, this will happen, people will forget it happened by the end of the election in October and go back to complaining about transit in Toronto.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Fishbone Jones on July 30, 2018, 18:21:56
Anyone concerned about emergency services in Toronto during the Ford Nation era,

Not really. It's all in the past and irrelevant to the current situation. Maybe I'm in a minority, but I don't read anything you post about the past, the ambulance service, Rob Ford, etc. It's usually irrelevant to the discussion.

Rob Ford is dead, but keep beating the corpse.

Doug Ford did not keep this secret. Tory decided not to take him serious because he didn't think Ford would win. Now he's playing catch up and losing groud daily.

Doug Ford won a majority government. That is his mandate and perogative. It is also his decision, not Tory's and not Miller's.

The view through the windshield is much bigger and brighter than the view in the rear view mirror for a reason.

I can see TO being upset. They don't drive Ontario politics anymore. They are no longer the centre of the universe. They are having trouble accepting that the they are no more important than the rest of the province and that the rest of us have a vote.

So, no, I'm not concerned about emergency services in Toronto during the Ford Nation era, but maybe that's just me. I'd rather concentrate on the future and forget the last 15 years when Toronto was in the driver seat.

Time to move on.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 30, 2018, 18:25:09
Its a lot easier when your ward is only 10KM wide vice 40 or 50 KM. When you cram 4,000 people in a sq KM, a lot of their issues are similar because most are living in multi-family apartments. One neighbourhood 10 KM away can have a completely different set of priorities than another when you're in the suburbs.

I have a feeling a lot of the councillors are more pissed about losing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dDfr89eRd0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dDfr89eRd0) than actually losing representation of their constituency.

At the end of the day, this will happen, people will forget it happened by the end of the election in October and go back to complaining about transit in Toronto.
again, if 1 percent of constituents email or mail their representative in a week, it doesn't matter if the ward is 10 kms wide or 50.

No councillor is going to be able to keep up with 115k constituents.

As for people forgetting about it,  I think the PQ thought that as well,  but I know a lot of people who voted for the liberal party in quebec because of anger of the province ramming through forced mergers early in their mandate. The liberal party of quebec promised referendums  on reversing it and they won,  and a lot of towns demerged as a result.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 30, 2018, 18:37:06
https://www.thespec.com/news-story/8768816-nearly-half-of-torontonians-oppose-ford-s-plan-to-slash-city-council-poll-finds/

Quote

Nearly half of Torontonians disapprove of both Premier Doug Ford and his plan to dramatically shrink the size of city council, while a third are in favour of the ward reduction, according to a new poll by Forum Research.


Reason why Ford won't take this to a referendum.

The people he's supposedly in government for,  are largely opposed to the idea.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 30, 2018, 18:41:41
Quote from: PuckChaser


I have a feeling a lot of the councillors are more pissed about losing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dDfr89eRd0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dDfr89eRd0) than actually losing representation of their constituency.



Holy toledo . Those are some sweet perks.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: PuckChaser on July 30, 2018, 18:45:57
Reason why Ford won't take this to a referendum.

He doesn't have to. Much like at the federal level where the current government can pretty much do what it wants, even if it didn't exactly campaign on it. In this case, people knew what Doug Ford wanted: more efficient government with less waste. The rest of Ontario (and suburban Toronto) voted for that. I realize its probably a shock to the downtown Toronto Liberal/NDP voters, but provincially, the world doesn't revolve around them.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 30, 2018, 18:54:45
I have a feeling a lot of the councillors are more pissed about losing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dDfr89eRd0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dDfr89eRd0) than actually losing representation of their constituency.

Holy toledo . Those are some sweet perks.

Ford's problem with free perks
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2010/10/13/fords_problem_with_free_perks.html

Metro can keep it's perks. I took the OT/Stat/shift bonus/ paid duty / meal allowance etc. in cash.

I never paid to park on City property. I never paid to ride the subway when in uniform.



Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 30, 2018, 18:55:49
He doesn't have to. Much like at the federal level where the current government can pretty much do what it wants, even if it didn't exactly campaign on it. In this case, people knew what Doug Ford wanted: more efficient government with less waste. The rest of Ontario (and suburban Toronto) voted for that. I realize its probably a shock to the downtown Toronto Liberal/NDP voters, but provincially, the world doesn't revolve around them.
Of course.  He has a majority government,  he can do whatever he pleases.

And naturally,  he can get sweet revenge on his political opponents like those in toronto who didn't support him for mayor or didn't vote for him for premier.

It's all constitutional and well within his power to do so.

I will just call it as I see it. He could have done this province wide. He focused on toronto. Is toronto the only municipality that has too many councillors per constituent?  I would dare say no. What is good for toronto would probably be good for ottawa or Hamilton,  or Windsor or thunder bay.

But by focusing on toronto this reeks of settling scores. And he's premier,  he can do that now.  People do have long memories though. Some people still haven't gotten over bob rae,  so I don't think people will forget about this in 4 years time.  And I sure party is going to run on overturning this decision.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 30, 2018, 19:01:09
Ford's problem with free perks
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2010/10/13/fords_problem_with_free_perks.html

"Nearly half of Torontonians disapprove of both Premier Doug Ford and his plan to dramatically shrink the size of city council, while a third are in favour of the ward reduction, according to a new poll by Forum Research."

Interesting.
the burbs who more representation in this plan are no doubt ecstatic.

Same burbs that vote for Ford Nation. 

Just a hunch.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 30, 2018, 19:06:26
Same percentage as voted for Doug for Mayor. One-third. 33.73% to be exact.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: PuckChaser on July 30, 2018, 19:20:35
Seems The Beaverton has a solution to your number of constituents issue: https://www.thebeaverton.com/2018/07/ford-announces-plan-to-cut-toronto-city-council-size-by-killing-1-million-torontonians/ (https://www.thebeaverton.com/2018/07/ford-announces-plan-to-cut-toronto-city-council-size-by-killing-1-million-torontonians/)
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 30, 2018, 19:24:59
Seems The Beaverton has a solution to your number of constituents issue: https://www.thebeaverton.com/2018/07/ford-announces-plan-to-cut-toronto-city-council-size-by-killing-1-million-torontonians/ (https://www.thebeaverton.com/2018/07/ford-announces-plan-to-cut-toronto-city-council-size-by-killing-1-million-torontonians/)

Order 66?
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Remius on July 30, 2018, 19:31:16
Order 66?

More along the lines of what Thanos did in the last avengers film.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 30, 2018, 19:37:12
Seems The Beaverton has a solution to your number of constituents issue: https://www.thebeaverton.com/2018/07/ford-announces-plan-to-cut-toronto-city-council-size-by-killing-1-million-torontonians/ (https://www.thebeaverton.com/2018/07/ford-announces-plan-to-cut-toronto-city-council-size-by-killing-1-million-torontonians/)
would make his reelection campaign easier without a extra million progressives voting the wrong way.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 30, 2018, 19:42:18
Same percentage as voted for Doug for Mayor. One-third. 33.73% to be exact.
Quote
Those who didn’t support us, I want you to know I will work even harder to earn your confidence.
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.macleans.ca/politics/doug-fords-victory-speech-ontario-is-open-for-business-full-transcript/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwi5qtfr8cfcAhXo6IMKHQLoBf0QFjADegQIABAB&usg=AOvVaw0wO_TNV_cbN1HFS9DRmnnd&ampcf=1

Always funny when politicians say stuff like this then immediately forget about it.

And yes,  the liberals do it too.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 30, 2018, 22:57:54
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-doug-ford-is-right-about-toronto/

Quote
Not every citizen is enraged, however. To be honest, I doubt that one in a thousand Torontonians knows how many council seats there are, or whether this number is too many, too few or just right. What I do know is that Canada’s largest municipal government is unwieldy and dysfunctional – a talking shop for windbags where it’s extremely hard to get stuff done. Even insiders say so.

That’s the view of Michael Thompson, the long-time city councillor for Scarborough Centre. He’s with Doug Ford on this one. “It’s hard to get us to make decisions,” he told me. “The business of council could be done in a more timely, efficient manner if we had fewer people talking about the same things over and over.”

Toronto’s government has no party system. That means that each councillor is effectively a party of one – motivated to speak (at length) on every issue to show that she is serving her constituency, whether or not she has anything to say. “Everyone comes with a different tactical view,” Mr. Thompson says. “Every one of us can come up with a new subway plan and every one of them has to be discussed. We can’t form a collective view.”

The gridlock over public transit is the biggest victim of council’s inefficiency. But countless lesser matters – the casino debate, the garbage debate, the debate over King Street – get bogged down in endless process. Endless reports are commissioned that are never read. Councillors use their positions to stall and bargain for concessions on other issues. Mr. Thompson is convinced that fewer councillors would improve democracy, not diminish it. Doug Ford’s plan is to reduce them to 25 – close to the number of Toronto MPs in Ottawa and MPPs at Queen’s Park – and to adopt the same geographic boundary lines.


So 47 councilors create an administrative burden that slows the system to a crawl and prevents timely resolution of matters. Interesting point of view.

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 30, 2018, 23:12:42
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-doug-ford-is-right-about-toronto/
 

So 47 councilors create an administrative burden that slows the system to a crawl and prevents timely resolution of matters. Interesting point of view.
it not 47 councillors that slows the system to a crawl and prevents timely resolution of matters.

Montreal has 65(more like 200 when you count the demereged cities) and things work very quickly.

Its 47 independent councillors that makes it unweildy.

If there were 124 indendent MPPs or 338 independent MPs the problem wouldn't be the number of MPs or MPPs, it would be that there is no party system to push legislation.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: FJAG on July 30, 2018, 23:14:04
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-doug-ford-is-right-about-toronto/
 

So 47 councilors create an administrative burden that slows the system to a crawl and prevents timely resolution of matters. Interesting point of view.

As I said above, when we cut back the number of benchers in the Law Society of Manitoba by and to roughly the same number we became significantly more efficient. I'm firmly on board with this move. But then it's been a long time since I lived in Toronto and actually cared about what goes on there.

Incidentally for anyone above that has/had the attitude that Torontonians feel that they are the centre of the universe; well we sure had the attitude back in the 1960s that everything that mattered in the world was situated south of the 401. Not really sure if that has changed any. But that's for another thread.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on July 30, 2018, 23:24:40
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-doug-ford-is-right-about-toronto/

According to a new poll by Forum Research, "a third are in favour of the ward reduction".

Same percentage as voted for Doug for Mayor. One-third. 33.73% to be exact.

So 47 councilors create an administrative burden that slows the system to a crawl and prevents timely resolution of matters.

Wonder how other cities manage,

QUOTE

London, England has only 25 members for a population of more than eight million people. But that city also has 32 elected borough councils, many with more than 50 or even 70 members, and each of those has its own mayor. He also noted that Los Angeles has only 15 councillors and a mayor, but failed to mention the 97 neighbourhood councils that are part of its government structure. Chicago, about the size of Toronto, has 50 councillors, a mayor, and an elected clerk and treasurer — slightly larger than the body Toronto would have had after this election. New York City, between its city council, its community boards, and its borough presidents, has more than 3,000 politicians running it.
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZyAaWNyXAZ8J:https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/07/27/fords-move-to-slash-toronto-council-without-consultation-an-undemocratic-move.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

END QUOTE

In 1998, with a smaller population back then, Toronto had more than 100 politicians.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/toronto/article-fords-plan-for-toronto-is-vindictive-and-undemocratic/



Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 30, 2018, 23:26:21
"Not every citizen is enraged, however."

According to a new poll by Forum Research, "a third are in favour of the ward reduction".
all about the base ::)
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 30, 2018, 23:32:59
No treble  ;)
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: YZT580 on July 31, 2018, 09:14:15
Perhaps there is a sweet spot for the number of people required: regardless of population.  Any more than a couple of dozen makes general meetings unwieldy with too many different opinions to try and reconcile.  On the other hand a certain number are required to head committees and planning groups and to respond to constituent complaints. These numbers don't increase exponentially with population.  Most complaints are already handled at the receptionist level; only a few actually go to the the councillor for his/her response.  So  what is the sweet spot?  Perhaps around 25 to 30 making cities like Ottawa and Hamilton just about right.   
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 31, 2018, 09:32:01
Perhaps there is a sweet spot for the number of people required: regardless of population.  Any more than a couple of dozen makes general meetings unwieldy with too many different opinions to try and reconcile.  On the other hand a certain number are required to head committees and planning groups and to respond to constituent complaints. These numbers don't increase exponentially with population.  Most complaints are already handled at the receptionist level; only a few actually go to the the councillor for his/her response.  So  what is the sweet spot?  Perhaps around 25 to 30 making cities like Ottawa and Hamilton just about right.
A disorderly mob is no more an army than a heap of building materials is a house-Socrates.

Again, how Montreal can have a city council of 65 people work with little issues, legislation flowing, and projects getting done, while Toronto is a unruly mob with 47 Councillors is simple.

It's all a matter of organization. In this case, parties.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4358422/toronto-city-council-other-cities/

Quote
Here’s how Toronto compares to other cities of a similar size:

Toronto, population of 2.73 million

The city of Toronto currently has a mayor and a council of 47 seats, that serve 47 wards. That gives an average population per ward of about 62,082 people.

Each district directly elects their chosen councillor who sits on council.

The new configuration would have a mayor and a council of 25 seats. That would give an average population per ward of 109,262 people.

Los Angeles, population of 4.0 million

L.A. has a larger population than Toronto, but fewer councillors. Its council is made up of 15 seats plus the mayor, giving an average population per councillor of 266,651.

But, there are districts in L.A. that have their own municipalities, for example Santa Monica has its own city council with 12 seats, and Beverly Hills has another with five seats.

Chicago, population of 2.72 million

ChicagoA very comparable size to Toronto, Chicago has a city council that is made up of 50 aldermen plus the mayor, giving an average ward population of 54,329 people.

According to state law, ward borders shift after every federal census to be in line with the population.

Brisbane, Australia, population of 2.35 million

There are 26 wards in Brisbane, and 26 councillors plus the mayor sit on council.

According to the city website, there is an average of 28,446 electors per ward, but that doesn’t include non-voting members of the ward.

Rome, Italy, population of 2.87 million

Rome’s city council is made up of 48 members plus the mayor. Voting is party-based and proportional, meaning the percentage of votes for a certain party dictates the number of councillors.

There is no average ward population because there are no wards.

Madrid, Spain, population of 3.14 million

Along with their mayor, 57 council members sit on city council. Like Rome, the council is elected by proportional representation.

Osaka, Japan, population of 2.67 million people 

Osaka, Japan is another city that is close in population size to Toronto. According to the city of Osaka website, there are 24 wards and the number of councillors per ward is based on the population of the ward.

Here’s how other Canadian cities compare:
Ottawa, population of 934,243

In Ottawa, there are 23 city councillors and a mayor. The population per councillor is 40,619.

Ford has said there are no plans to change the council in Ottawa.

Winnipeg, population of 705,245

There are currently 14 wards with one councillor each in Winnipeg, plus a mayor, with an average population per ward of 50,374, based on 2016 numbers.

But there are plans for the next municipal election to up that number to 15 wards.

Calgary, population of 1.27 million

There are 14 councillors and a mayor on city council in Calgary. The average population of the wards weren’t available online, but the population per councillor was calculated at 82,615.

Vancouver, population of 647,540

Vancouver doesn’t have wards, it elects 10 councillors at large along with a mayor. That means voters pick their 10 people on their ballots, and the candidates with the most votes are elected.

The population per councillor is 64,754.

Montreal, population of 1.7 million

There are 65 elected officials in Montreal consisting of one mayor, 18 borough mayors and 46 city councillors.  Since there are borough mayors in the same region as council wards, the average population per councillor is lower than other major cities at 26,635. The average population per ward is 37,059.

There are also borough councils, on which city councilors of that borough sit. Montrealers also elect extra borough councilors if there aren’t five city councillors in the district.

Edmonton, population of 899,447

The city of Edmonton has 12 wards plus one mayor. Average population per councillor was calculated at 64,246, but ward populations ranged from 63,048 to 92,332..

So most cities around the world have more or less come to the conclusion that a city councillor shouldn't have more than 100 thousand constituents, but of course, Toronto is going to be special.

So there is no consensus magic number, but either way, Toronto is going to be on the high side.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on July 31, 2018, 09:44:50
A disorderly mob is no more an army than a heap of building materials is a house-Socrates.

Again, how Montreal can have a city council of 65 people work with little issues, legislation flowing, and projects getting done, while Toronto is a unruly mob with 47 Councillors is simple.

It's all a matter of organization. In this case, parties.

Montreal doesn't work though.  Have you been there?  It is the exact opposite of working! Citing the most corrupt city in Canada as an example for Toronto to emulate is  :facepalm:

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Remius on July 31, 2018, 10:03:42
Perhaps there is a sweet spot for the number of people required: regardless of population.  Any more than a couple of dozen makes general meetings unwieldy with too many different opinions to try and reconcile.  On the other hand a certain number are required to head committees and planning groups and to respond to constituent complaints. These numbers don't increase exponentially with population.  Most complaints are already handled at the receptionist level; only a few actually go to the the councillor for his/her response.  So  what is the sweet spot?  Perhaps around 25 to 30 making cities like Ottawa and Hamilton just about right.

Ottawa has 12 standing committees.  None of them seem frivolous to me and seem to all have a purpose (as in not fluffy).  Each has a chair and a few members.  So Ottawa has 23 council members plus the mayor who sits on at least one committee.  there are also 5 advisory committees with a council member acting as a liaison.  there is also an Aboriginal Working committee but does not seem to have any council members on that.

Toronto has 12 Standing committees but...has 65 community council and other advisory and boards etc.   Seems a bit excessive.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 31, 2018, 10:09:25
Montreal doesn't work though.  Have you been there?  It is the exact opposite of working! Citing the most corrupt city in Canada as an example for Toronto to emulate is  :facepalm:
How does Montreal not work? When did Denis Corderre have issues passing legislation, or approving projects? Or Valarie Plante? Corderre was easily able to finance and approve the disaster that the Formula E race, was able to push the nonsense for the Montreal 375, the mayor of Montreal and their party doesn't have to herd cats like in Toronto to get things done. In large cities, it seems like having political parties at the municipal level is the way to go.

As for corruption, I think you are talking two Mayors ago, for I haven't heard anything regarding Corderre or Plante. Have you? Calling Montreal the most corrupt city in Canada is quite a claim to make without any evidence.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: YZT580 on July 31, 2018, 12:18:05
Saying Toronto councillors are independent of a party is flat out wrong.  The vast majority are NDP.  The only difference in individuals is the distance to the left which varies to the extreme.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Remius on July 31, 2018, 12:20:39
Actually it is flat out right.  There is no party system, no whip etc.  How one leans politically is not the same thing.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Altair on July 31, 2018, 12:28:04
Saying Toronto councillors are independent of a party is flat out wrong.  The vast majority are NDP.  The only difference in individuals is the distance to the left which varies to the extreme.
They may be ideologically NDP, but their is no party apparatus that can keep them in line.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: FJAG on August 15, 2018, 02:48:51
Quote
Ontario caps off summer session with bill slashing Toronto city council

'People want smaller government,' Premier Doug Ford says, but court challenge looms

CBC News · Posted: Aug 14, 2018 3:54 PM ET |

Ontario has approved a plan to reduce the number of Toronto city councillors from 47 to 25 ahead of this October's election.

The province's new Progressive Conservative government passed the Better Local Government Act, also known as Bill 5, on Tuesday afternoon, despite receiving no support from the opposition parties, which condemned the move as undemocratic during debates. . . .

See full article here:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/better-local-government-act-passes-1.4785145 (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/better-local-government-act-passes-1.4785145)

 :cheers:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Xylric on August 15, 2018, 13:41:30
See full article here:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/better-local-government-act-passes-1.4785145 (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/better-local-government-act-passes-1.4785145)

 :cheers:

Might be a silly question, but how on earth does the province have the power to reduce the number of municipal Councillors?
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Larry Strong on August 15, 2018, 14:04:37
Under Canada's constitution, municipalities officially exist as "creatures of the provinces," meaning that their very existence in Ontario is completely dependent on the will of Queen's Park.


Cheers
Larry
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on August 15, 2018, 14:17:54
Reply #128,

> "Ontario caps off summer session with bill slashing Toronto city council"

The City of Brockville has 8 councillors for 30,000 residents. Roughly 1 councillor per 3,750 constituents.
https://brockville.com/index.cfm?ID=205

The City of Toronto will now have 1 councillor per 112,000 constituents.

Only reason I mention Brockville is because their former mayor, now Minister of Municipal Affairs, was tweeting about it,

"Our gov’t #ForThePeople has delivered a streamlined, cost-effective Toronto council and is ensuring local gov’t works to make life better for all. for your leadership and our @OntarioPCParty caucus for your support!"
https://twitter.com/SteveClarkPC/status/1029490942083039232








Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Cloud Cover on August 15, 2018, 20:19:13
Under Canada's constitution, municipalities officially exist as "creatures of the provinces," meaning that their very existence in Ontario is completely dependent on the will of Queen's Park.


Cheers
Larry

Agree. However, the arbitrary exercise of power by a Province will always attract scrutiny for an potential effects that impact democratic rights of its citizens. It would be an uphill battle for Toronto to establish a genuine case without a sympathetic ear from the judiciary, which is entirely possible and damned near probable. Doesn't mean the city will win, but they will have a full opportunity to litigate.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: FJAG on August 15, 2018, 21:58:27
Under Canada's constitution, municipalities officially exist as "creatures of the provinces," meaning that their very existence in Ontario is completely dependent on the will of Queen's Park.


Cheers
Larry

You will generally find provincial legislation which deals with municipal structures, powers etc throughout the province. In most provinces it's called the "Municipal Act". It's also quite common to make special provincial legislation for some of the larger centres (such as the City of Winnipeg Act, the City of Toronto Act etc) that deal with that specific municipality. Long story short, whatever structure, powers etc that a given municipality has is as a result of provincial enabling legislation.

On top of that there are several other acts in each province such as "Planning Acts", "Municipal Elections Acts", "Municipal Conflict of Interest Act", etc which deal with specialized categories of powers and responsibilities

 :cheers:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Larry Strong on August 15, 2018, 22:43:42
You will generally find provincial legislation which deals with municipal structures, powers etc throughout the province. In most provinces it's called the "Municipal Act". It's also quite common to make special provincial legislation for some of the larger centres (such as the City of Winnipeg Act, the City of Toronto Act etc) that deal with that specific municipality. Long story short, whatever structure, powers etc that a given municipality has is as a result of provincial enabling legislation.

On top of that there are several other acts in each province such as "Planning Acts", "Municipal Elections Acts", "Municipal Conflict of Interest Act", etc which deal with specialized categories of powers and responsibilities

 :cheers:

Thanks for that  :salute:

I would be the first to admit I was spouting the layman's version... ;)

Cheers
Larry
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: FJAG on August 15, 2018, 23:28:18
Thanks for that  :salute:

I would be the first to admit I was spouting the layman's version... ;)

Cheers
Larry

You were actually bang on. Specifically s 92(8) of the Constitution Act, 1867 (previously known as the British North America Act, 1867) provides as follows:

Quote
92. In each Province the Legislature may exclusively make Laws in relation to Matters coming within the Classes of Subjects next hereinafter enumerated; that is to say,
. . .
8. Municipal Institutions in the Province.
. . .

Hence, municipalities are exclusively creatures of the provincial legislatures.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on August 16, 2018, 00:08:02
Unfortunately, according to the 2000 report from the Toronto city solicitor, the Canadian constitution gives the Province of Ontario the right to opt out of any  federal amendment that takes away from its provincial legislative power over Toronto.

Meaning, Ontario would have to agree to allow the secession of Toronto from the province.

In 2000, Toronto city council proposed for Toronto secession to be made a ballot issue — only to have the proposal swiftly slapped down by Ontario’s then-Progressive Conservative government of Mike Harris.

If the GTA were allowed to secede from Ontario, its estimated $304 billion GDP would make it Canada's fourth-wealthiest province. Just behind Alberta.

It would only be slightly larger geographically than the Province of P.E.I..

Jonathan Malloy, a Carleton political science professor, called the chance of Ontario allowing Toronto to secede, "pretty much impossible."

National Post 3 Aug., 2018









 
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Larry Strong on August 16, 2018, 20:29:52
Quote
The city of Toronto has little hope of winning a legal challenge against the newly enacted Bill 5, says a confidential legal opinion obtained Thursday by the Toronto Sun.

The opinion by city solicitor Wendy Wahlberg and her staff makes it clear that City Clerk Ulli Watkiss is “now confident” she is able to deliver a 25-ward election in time for Oct. 22, and litigation or a sudden reversal to a 47-ward model will result in “continued uncertainty” for voters, candidates and those administering the election.

“Among other things it could undermine the clerk’s ability to administer a fair election and public confidence in a fair outcome of the election,” Wahlberg’s opinion states.

More at link...

https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/levy-citys-legal-eagles-say-fighting-bill-5-a-hopeless-case


Cheers
Larry
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 22, 2018, 06:04:14
https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2018/08/21/premier-doug-ford-puts-stop-to-drivers-licence-fee-hike.html

Quote
Premier Doug Ford puts stop to driver’s licence fee hike


Motorists are getting a break as Doug Ford’s new Progressive Conservative government slams the brakes on fee increases slated to kick in Sept. 1 for driver’s licences and related knowledge and road tests.



Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Bluebulldog on August 22, 2018, 09:49:53
Ottawa has 12 standing committees.  None of them seem frivolous to me and seem to all have a purpose (as in not fluffy).  Each has a chair and a few members.  So Ottawa has 23 council members plus the mayor who sits on at least one committee.  there are also 5 advisory committees with a council member acting as a liaison.  there is also an Aboriginal Working committee but does not seem to have any council members on that.

Toronto has 12 Standing committees but...has 65 community council and other advisory and boards etc.   Seems a bit excessive.

This is the crux of much of this debate. It's not necessarily the amount of bodies......it's what they effectively do.

Several smaller municipalities cited in earlier posts actually have part time councillors. ( Not every municipal councillor job is a full time gig).

Several municipalities also have effective staff and committees which are often volunteer, or partial compensation, which work extremely well at developing policy, and making recommendations for same.

Several municipalities also have admin staff ( Toronto is no different). The notion that Toronto City Councillors are always the face that a member of their constituency sees is fallacy. Most have staff who in fact filter, and respond to the majority of inquiries, and issues, ( often without the councillor even getting involved).

Is Ford taking issue with Toronto in particular? Of course. Is it "revenge"? Possibly.....or quite possibly he's doing something about a government he previously served on, and has esoteric knowledge of, and was powerless to do anything about it when he served.

Yes. The GTA is upset.... The previous Govt. treated it as the center of the Universe, to the detriment of the rest of the Province. They have just fallen out of favour as the favourite child....some sulking and whining is to be expected.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on August 22, 2018, 09:51:36
I was listening to a talk radio station the other day when Scott Gilmore was talking about even more drastic cuts then this.....how about cutting out every provincial Govt?
On my phone so if someone would paste the Macleans link I'd appreciate it.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on August 22, 2018, 12:01:38
Is Ford taking issue with Toronto in particular? Of course. Is it "revenge"? Possibly.....or quite possibly he's doing something about a government he previously served on, and has esoteric knowledge of, and was powerless to do anything about it when he served.

Toronto voters have an "esoteric knowledge of" Doug as a one-term councillor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P183mGLvkI

He had the third worst attendance record on council. Behind one who was dying of cancer. The other had brain surgery.

As the mayor's older brother, Doug referred to himself as "co-mayor" of Toronto.

Until council stripped the "co-mayor" of his power and transferred that power, and staff, to Deputy Mayor Norm Kelly.

When Doug ran for mayor, he lost to John Tory.

Now he is at Queen's Park, he can finally take care of Toronto.









Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 22, 2018, 13:05:29
Take care of Toronto and the rest of Ontario, thankfully.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on August 22, 2018, 17:22:55
Take care of Toronto and the rest of Ontario, thankfully.

He took care of Toronto.

As for the rest of Ontario's 444 municipalities,

QUOTE

Global News

August 20, 2018

No plans to cut other local councils in Ontario, Ford tells municipal leaders

In a keynote address to delegates at the annual conference of the Association of Municipalities Ontario (AMO), Ford said he “occasionally” gets asked whether the new government at Queen’s Park will do to other local governments – like Ottawa – what it did to Toronto.
https://globalnews.ca/news/4397011/doug-ford-amo/

END QUOTE
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Thucydides on August 22, 2018, 18:32:06
Unfortunately, according to the 2000 report from the Toronto city solicitor, the Canadian constitution gives the Province of Ontario the right to opt out of any  federal amendment that takes away from its provincial legislative power over Toronto.

Meaning, Ontario would have to agree to allow the secession of Toronto from the province.

In 2000, Toronto city council proposed for Toronto secession to be made a ballot issue — only to have the proposal swiftly slapped down by Ontario’s then-Progressive Conservative government of Mike Harris.

If the GTA were allowed to secede from Ontario, its estimated $304 billion GDP would make it Canada's fourth-wealthiest province. Just behind Alberta.

It would only be slightly larger geographically than the Province of P.E.I..

Jonathan Malloy, a Carleton political science professor, called the chance of Ontario allowing Toronto to secede, "pretty much impossible."

National Post 3 Aug., 2018

This is much like reading the articles supporting California seceding from the United States. True, they have a multi-billion dollar economy, but only because it is connected to the greater United States. California imports electricity, since it does not generate its own, and even their water supply is somewhat dependent on an aqueduct and irrigation system connected to other parts of the US.

Toronto is much the same. Unlike Singapore or Hong Kong (a current and former modern city-state) or even Ancient Athens, Toronto has no means of existing independently from the rest of the province or nation. Being a "city-state" will be largely fictitious, and I would imagine that if Toronto councillors were allowed free reign, you would see a lot of people and business departing for Ontario proper, other provinces or the United States.

The issue of connectivity is highly important, but treating Toronto, the GTA and Golden Horseshoe as the "centre" and the remainder of the province as essentially a hinterland to be exploited for taxes and resources is not a model for success either (as the Liberals demonstrated since 2002).
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on August 22, 2018, 18:55:41
Toronto has no means of existing independently from the rest of the province or nation.

There was never a proposal to secede from Canada. Only from Ontario.

This should read, "secession from Ontario",

In 2000, Toronto city council proposed for Toronto secession to be made a ballot issue — only to have the proposal swiftly slapped down by Ontario’s then-Progressive Conservative government of Mike Harris.



Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Remius on September 10, 2018, 12:06:06
Another court case lost for Doug Ford.

First Tesla now this.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/judge-ruling-city-council-bill-election-1.4816664

I wonder what happens next for Toronto city council...

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Blackadder1916 on September 10, 2018, 12:23:19
Another court case lost for Doug Ford.

First Tesla now this.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/judge-ruling-city-council-bill-election-1.4816664

I wonder what happens next for Toronto city council...

And Justice Belobaba's ruling for those interested http://www.ontariocourts.ca/decisions/scj/2018ONSC5151.pdf
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 10, 2018, 13:02:14
Another court case lost for Doug Ford.

First Tesla now this.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/judge-ruling-city-council-bill-election-1.4816664

I wonder what happens next for Toronto city council...

Give themselves a raise probably.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Remius on September 10, 2018, 13:03:57
Give themselves a raise probably.

Ha!  probably...or a golden parachute.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 10, 2018, 17:06:43
Ha!  probably...or a golden parachute.

Maybe you're right abour them needing a parachute  ;D



Premier Ford Overrules Judge with Notwithstanding Clause, Toronto City Council Cuts Move On
https://thenectarine.ca/politics/premier-doug-ford-to-use-notwithstanding-clause-and-appeal-court-decision/
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: FJAG on September 10, 2018, 18:17:22
Quote
Premier Doug Ford to use notwithstanding clause to cut size of Toronto city council

Article here.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/judge-ruling-city-council-bill-election-1.4816664 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/judge-ruling-city-council-bill-election-1.4816664)

Personally, I thought that the decision by Judge Belobaba is a bit of a stretch. The heart of his decision is here:

Quote
[17] Second, a federal or provincial legislature is sovereign and cannot bind itself. The provincial legislature can over-rule or contradict a previously enacted law. A subsequent
enactment that is inconsistent with an earlier enactment is deemed to impliedly repeal the
earlier enactment to the extent of the inconsistency.6 Thus, the argument that the City of
Toronto Act7 somehow imposed an immutable obligation to consult cannot succeed. The Province was entitled to enact Bill 5 and ignore completely the promise to consult that was set out in the previous law.

[18] Third, speaking broadly and again absent a constitutional issue, the provincial
legislature has no obligation to consult and no obligation of procedural fairness.
8 The doctrine of legitimate expectations, an aspect of procedural fairness, does not apply to
legislative enactments.9

[19] At first glance, Bill 5 although controversial in content appears to fall squarely
within the province’s legislative competence. Upon closer examination of the
surrounding circumstances, however, one discovers at least two constitutional
deficiencies that cannot be justified in a free and democratic society. The first relates to
the timing of the law and its impact on candidates; the second to its content and its impact
on voters.

[20] As I explain in more detail below, the Impugned Provisions breach s. 2(b) of the
Charter in two ways: (i) because the Bill was enacted in the middle of an ongoing
election campaign, it breached the municipal candidate’s freedom of expression and (ii)
because Bill 5 almost doubled the population size of City wards from an average of
61,000 to an average of 111,000, it breached the municipal voter’s right to cast a vote that
can result in effective representation.

Essentially he confirmed the provincial government's broad unfettered authority to make the law that it did but then points to two so-called constitutional breaches. The second, the one about the size of the constituencies is entirely arbitrary on his part and glosses over the simple fact that these constituencies already exist as Federal ridings and provide entirely adequate representation. Regardless of any Toronto commissioned review, it is the role of the legislature to determine if representation is adequate. The first, respecting the existing candidates freedom of expression is, IMHO, also a made-up ground. The change of boundaries in mid-election did not interfere with the candidates freedom of expression, merely modified the audience within which they were free to express themselves. This might very well have been unfair and difficult but provinces can be that way and still not create a breach of any "constitutional right".

IMHO this judgment reads like a case of "situating the estimate" to get the desired result. An expedited appeal would be the way to go. I think re-passing the legislation with a "notwithstanding clause" is certainly doable but sends a bad message. The clause should be used on "line in the sand" issues. Quite frankly this doesn't strike me as such a significant piece of legislation that the government should go to the wall on it. It does make a statement though which will be appreciated by many of the Party's base.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: PuckChaser on September 10, 2018, 19:32:01
I don't think Judge Belobaba thought of the far-reaching repercussions of his decision. He's basically drawn a line in the sand saying that its against the Charter Rights of individuals if they're in riding over 66,000 people and only have 1 MP/MPP. There's only 1 Ontario riding Federally that is below that threshold (Kenora) and 10 more for the remainder of the provinces (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_of_Canadian_federal_ridings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_of_Canadian_federal_ridings)). It's also specious reasoning to state that it's "the middle of a campaign" when notice was given 90 days out from the municipal election and the candidate list isn't even finalized until 14 Sep 18.

I don't see the decision standing on appeal, but we won't need that thanks to Notwithstanding. A primer on that clause is here: https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/what-is-the-notwithstanding-clause-1.4087536 (https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/what-is-the-notwithstanding-clause-1.4087536)
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: ModlrMike on September 10, 2018, 19:32:29
The only point in that ruling that I would concede would be the one about changing things in the middle of an election. Better to have said "this will be the last 47 member council, so prepare yourselves".
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 10, 2018, 22:26:27
Resistance is futile.

QUOTE

Report prepared by the City Solicitor, City of Toronto
June, 2000 (updated October 2001)

Secession from the Province of Ontario

• Subsection 42(1)(f) of the Constitution Act provides that amendments to the Constitution of Canada to establish a new province are to be made in accordance with the general amending procedure set out in section 38. This procedure requires resolutions of the Senate, the House of Commons and at least two thirds of the provinces having at least 50% of the population of all the provinces.
• Subsection 38(2) provides that where a constitutional amendment is made under 38(1) that derogates from the legislative powers, the proprietary rights or any other rights or privileges of the legislature or government of a province, the resolutions referred to in the previous bullet must be supported by a majority of the members of each of the Senate, the House of Commons and the Legislative Assemblies required under subsection (1). In other words, a majority of all members of these bodies must support the amendment, not just the majority of those present and voting.
• Subsection 38(3) provides that when the majority of the members of a Legislative Assembly rejects a resolution for a constitutional amendment that would derogate from the powers, rights or privileges of that Assembly, the government of that province can opt out.
• Consequently, an amendment to the Constitution Act to create Toronto as a new province would require support from the Province of Ontario.


END QUOTE

Note: In 2000, Toronto city council proposed for Toronto secession from Ontario to be made a ballot issue — only to have the proposal swiftly slapped down by Ontario’s then-Progressive Conservative government of Mike Harris.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Cloud Cover on September 11, 2018, 00:24:55
I’m sure the rest of Ontario would be happy to build a wall. Toronto is not representative of Ontario, and Queens Park, most of the regulating bodies, the OHRC included, would be better located someplace real and staffed with  people of common sense. As FJAG states above, as well as many constitutional experts, not just lawyers but political scientists as well, todays court decision was a stretch and likely an incorrect decision.
That being said, pulling a stunt like Bill 5 at the material  time it was done, was a now or never decision, like so many other necessary decisions that will be forth coming because we are out of Time. . There has been so much damage done to the fabric of this province in the past 20 years, almost all of it stems from Toronto based interests. Only sustained use of  S33 will un#uck it. And if Toronto special interests whines and complains and throws it toys away, cut off the highways, slow down the extra food, need gas? Sorry that trucks not coming today....go to the courts and Ford will use section 33. Hopefully the gig is up....
#hadenoughofToronto
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: GR66 on September 11, 2018, 00:42:39
I’m sure the rest of Ontario would be happy to build a wall. Toronto is not representative of Ontario, and Queens Park, most of the regulating bodies, the OHRC included, would be better located someplace real and staffed with  people of common sense. As FJAG states above, as well as many constitutional experts, not just lawyers but political scientists as well, todays court decision was a stretch and likely an incorrect decision.
That being said, pulling a stunt like Bill 5 at the material  time it was done, was a now or never decision, like so many other necessary decisions that will be forth coming because we are out of Time. . There has been so much damage done to the fabric of this province in the past 20 years, almost all of it stems from Toronto based interests. Only sustained use of  S33 will un#uck it. And if Toronto special interests whines and complains and throws it toys away, cut off the highways, slow down the extra food, need gas? Sorry that trucks not coming today....go to the courts and Ford will use section 33. Hopefully the gig is up....
#hadenoughofToronto

That seems a little extreme doesn't it?  The courts find something unconstitutional so you propose blanket application of the Notwithstanding Clause as a response, and if people complain you blockade them and cut off their food and fuel supplies?

I'm actually not convinced that Bill 5 is totally a bad thing but the timing was poor.  If the Conservatives are so convinced that the change MUST take place now rather than after the next election could they not simply legislate a change to the election date to give more time for candidates to adjust?  As for the representation part of the Judge's ruling I tend to agree with those that see that as a weak argument since those are already existing electoral districts.

But why does every action and reaction these days have to be so extreme?  Will the world end if the reduction in the council doesn't take effect until the next election?  Will having council members having to serve larger wards make Toronto government screech to a halt?  Of course not on both counts.  But to hear many people talk on these issues and you'd assume the sky was falling and the end days are here.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Remius on September 11, 2018, 10:08:23
The only point in that ruling that I would concede would be the one about changing things in the middle of an election. Better to have said "this will be the last 47 member council, so prepare yourselves".

Yeah, I would agree on that point.  I have no problem with trimming the fat. But to do it once the campaign has started isn't very good.

Also, maybe he should have campaigned on that. 
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Underway on September 11, 2018, 16:50:37
I don't see the decision standing on appeal, but we won't need that thanks to Notwithstanding. A primer on that clause is here: https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/what-is-the-notwithstanding-clause-1.4087536 (https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/what-is-the-notwithstanding-clause-1.4087536)

From what I can tell the Gov't is going to appeal the decision anyways.  If it falls to appeal then Section 33 will not need be applied continuously.  The issue her isn't whether the Ontario is within its rights, its that Ford is using a sledgehammer to put in a finishing nail.  Standby for more uses of the notwithstanding clause against everyone and all.  Primacy of government over the courts is going to look real nasty in Ontario for a while yet.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on September 11, 2018, 17:24:53
Personally, I don't have a problem with primacy of the elected officials over the courts. That's what democracy is all about.

Contrary to some of the (in my mind illiterate) statements of so called experts found in the press, there is NO requirement whatsoever to be in an "exceptional" circumstance in order to call upon section 33 of the Constitution. it's purpose is solely to ensure that the primacy of the legislature/Parliament over the courts, and as result the primacy of the electorate, remains the supreme decision making body in the nation/provinces.

 
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: YZT580 on September 11, 2018, 19:19:13
Agreed.  The not withstanding clause should have been used long ago.  The judges have built themselves up to the point where it is their rulings that dictate the law rather than parliaments and that isn't the way it is supposed to be.  In many rulings, their personal bias shows through.  The decision re|: the pipeline being one glaring example. 
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: FJAG on September 11, 2018, 22:05:09
Time for me to pipe up again.

There is no "war" between the elected officials and the courts. Firstly the Charter of Rights and Freedoms was created by legislatures and declared by them to be the supreme law of the land and that all other laws need to be subordinate to it. The judges are also appointed by the legislatures (or more accurately by the cabinets/premiers/prime minister) for the express purpose of settling disputes between the citizens and between citizens and the state. In that respect the judges that you get are the ones that the legislatures have deemed to be the ones to best do the job (and yes, conservative legislatures appoint conservative judges and liberal legislatures liberal ones and, provincially, socialist legislatures socialist ones. Legislatures reap what they sow.

Once appointed, the judges are quite constrained in their job of interpreting the laws that legislatures make. They must abide firstly by the constitution itself, secondly by the legislation and thirdly (or concurrently) by the rulings of courts higher than they are.

Sometimes judges do screw up. That's why you have appeal courts. Two levels of appeal courts so that laws within a province are consistently applied throughout the province and nationally so that laws which have national import are applied consistently across the nation.

Sometimes legislatures (or more accurately the various departments and ministers of justice that draft the laws)  screw it up. Toews was famous for consistently drawing up criminal laws that pretty much everyone knew would never pass muster but they voted on them and put them out there anyway only to have them struck down afterwards.

In the long run, legislatures do remain supreme. They can change the Charter of Rights and Freedoms if enough of them want to; so far they haven't wanted to do that. They can use the "notwithstanding" clause if an issue is important enough to them. The clause was specifically introduced at the urging of Peter Lougheed who, like others, felt that without it the legislatures would, in fact, loose the final word to the courts. It was part of the "Kitchen Accord" which caused almost everyone (remember Rene Levesque) to sign on to the new Charter. Trudeau's daddy didn't like the clause and blamed Chretien for it being there.

Quote
To date, two provinces have used the power of override. Saskatchewan has used it to force provincial employees to work and to allow the government to pay for non-Catholics to attend a Catholic school; Quebec uses it to allow the government to restrict language of signage.

Anyway, that's a long way around to saying that it isn't so much judges who are "building themselves up" as it is legislatures that are basically passing poorly conceived or worded laws which contravene the constitutional legislation that they themselves have created. Sometimes they need to be told to fine tune what they've created. It's generally not hard to amend legislation so that it complies with the Charter and this goes on all the time. The trouble is politicians have no restraints in whining when they think their toes have been stepped on and that always makes good press. Judges on the other hand speak only through their judgements and, generally, only a handful of people read those and most reporters only look for the easy soundbites in the judgements (when they understand them at all)

I personally don't disagree with Ford's wanting to use the "notwithstanding clause". There simply isn't time to run through the appeal process and quite frankly, as I said above, I happen to think this judge reached too far. It comes with a risk though but that's a political decision and not a legal one. I really couldn't give a rat's a** about Toronto's city council and wish that my party spent some time trying to figure out why it continues to support the dairy cartel (when it's philosophically counter to conservative thinking; I think they are kowtowing gutlessly to a tiny part of the farm sector) or why we have our shorts in a knot over a school sex education program which wasn't really a problem and was only offensive to a fraction of the conservative base (but that was the platform so go to it)

 :cheers:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Colin P on September 12, 2018, 11:31:54
Another view on the matter and about another "notwithstanding clause"

http://brianlilley.com/judges-have-their-own-notwithstanding-clause/



Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 12, 2018, 11:56:41
I read Los Angeles has twice Toronto's population and only 15 councilors. Vancouver has 11.

The biggest complaint in my opinion seems to be that there are too many politicians in Toronto to get anything done in a timely manner.

So personal feelings about Ford aside, is he right?
IS there too many councilors to get anything done?
Will cutting the numbers in half improve the system?

Ford talked about reducing the government, kind of sounds exactly what he's trying to do.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: PuckChaser on September 12, 2018, 12:39:58
Especially when each Toronto councilor gets paid $192K a year. I can see why they're making a big stink about having more competition for their jobs.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 12, 2018, 12:47:43
Especially when each Toronto councilor gets paid $192K a year.

QUOTE

CBC
Apr 09, 2018

A Toronto city councillor's pay is about $112,000.

Mayor John Tory topped out at $192,503, according to his office. That's less than some 905 councillors took home last year.

Some councillors from smaller GTA municipalities making big bucks
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/some-councillors-from-smaller-gta-municipalities-making-big-bucks-1.4609427

END QUOTE

Quote
So glad you're here to fact check the thread into rabbit holes.




Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 12, 2018, 12:49:45
I read Los Angeles has twice Toronto's population and only 15 councilors.

QUOTE

London, England has only 25 members for a population of more than eight million people. But that city also has 32 elected borough councils, many with more than 50 or even 70 members, and each of those has its own mayor. He also noted that Los Angeles has only 15 councillors and a mayor, but failed to mention the 97 neighbourhood councils that are part of its government structure. Chicago, about the size of Toronto, has 50 councillors, a mayor, and an elected clerk and treasurer — slightly larger than the body Toronto would have had after this election. New York City, between its city council, its community boards, and its borough presidents, has more than 3,000 politicians running it.
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZyAaWNyXAZ8J:https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/07/27/fords-move-to-slash-toronto-council-without-consultation-an-undemocratic-move.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

END QUOTE



Vancouver has 11.

QUOTE

Vancouver Sun

Compared to elsewhere, Toronto doesn't actually have all that many city councillors
https://vancouversun.com/news/canada/toronto-doesnt-actually-have-all-that-many-city-councillors/wcm/bba005bb-aa30-4996-810c-0d5ca4dd5f54?video_autoplay=true
Even with its giant city council, the city has fewer politicians per person than almost anywhere else in Canada

When ranked against other major Canadian cities, Torontonians already have fewer councillors than almost anyone else.

Should Ford be successful in reducing the number of councillors from 44 to 25 plus a mayor, the city would have an average of one elected municipal representative for every 105,060 people.

In Metro Vancouver, by contrast, there are currently 15,893 people per elected municipal representative. Having never faced regional amalgamation, the Vancouver area is still governed by a patchwork of city, town, village and district governments.

Roll them all together and Metro Vancouver has 21 mayors and 94 total councillors — not including the chiefs and councillors of the city’s First Nations.

END QUOTE


Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Remius on September 12, 2018, 12:50:16
I read Los Angeles has twice Toronto's population and only 15 councilors. Vancouver has 11.

The biggest complaint in my opinion seems to be that there are too many politicians in Toronto to get anything done in a timely manner.

So personal feelings about Ford aside, is he right?
IS there too many councilors to get anything done?
Will cutting the numbers in half improve the system?

Ford talked about reducing the government, kind of sounds exactly what he's trying to do.

L.A. is a really bad example to use. They are the highest paid council in the US.  They actually get paid more than the Governor of the state.  About 185,000 USD a year plus an additional 100, 000$ no questions asked slush fund.  To top it off they get about 20 or so staff with around 8 cars per councillor.  And don't forget that there are around 97 neighbourhood councils as well.

Toronto is a bargain by comparison with three times the councillors. 
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 12, 2018, 13:10:37
Toronto is a bargain by comparison with three times the councillors.

At $112,000 a year they are a bargain.

Considering our chief paramedic made $223,824.33 last year - not including over $10,000 in taxable benefits.

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Brad Sallows on September 12, 2018, 13:32:26
Is the $112K just pay, or total compensation (ie. benefits including pension, if any)?
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 12, 2018, 13:42:22
Is the $112K just pay, or total compensation (ie. benefits including pension, if any)?

See,

https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/council/policies-and-guidelines/

They have to get re-elected every four years.

Whereas, it's almost impossible to throw out a unionized City employee - unless they become a public disgrace.



Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mick on September 12, 2018, 14:05:15
City of Vancouver has 11 councillors (incl mayor) for a population of approx 635,000 people.  That's 1 representative for every 57,700 residents.

Using this equation, Toronto, with a population of 2.7 million residents, ought to have 47 councillors. 

What exactly is the problem?
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 12, 2018, 14:19:28
City of Vancouver has 11 councillors (incl mayor) for a population of approx 635,000 people. That's 1 representative for every 57,700 residents.

According to the Vancouver Sun,

QUOTE
https://vancouversun.com/news/canada/toronto-doesnt-actually-have-all-that-many-city-councillors/wcm/bba005bb-aa30-4996-810c-0d5ca4dd5f54?video_autoplay=true

In Metro Vancouver, by contrast, there are currently 15,893 people per elected municipal representative. Having never faced regional amalgamation, the Vancouver area is still governed by a patchwork of city, town, village and district governments.

Roll them all together and Metro Vancouver has 21 mayors and 94 total councillors — not including the chiefs and councillors of the city’s First Nations.

END QUOTE


Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 12, 2018, 14:44:06
Okay, so forget comparisons then.

IS there too many councilors to get anything done?
Will cutting the numbers in half improve the system?
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mick on September 12, 2018, 14:51:35
Less representation in the name of: cost saving? 
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 12, 2018, 14:54:41
Okay, so forget comparisons then.

Why?

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mick on September 12, 2018, 14:58:24
Maybe it is possible to be relatively over-represented, but I don't think it's just a simple matter of cutting a deliberative body in half in the name of saving money, or for the notion of making consensus easier or decision-making less burdensome.

A larger, more diverse population will always be more difficult to democratically empower, compared to a smaller population.  Larger population = more representation.

I agree that it's possible to tweak / overhaul the status quo, but slashing by 50 percent - with no studies or research to justify it - seems a bit arbitrary.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 12, 2018, 15:06:02
Okay, so forget comparisons then.

Why?

IS there too many councilors to get anything done?

The work will always get done. Depends on how long the taxpayers are willing to wait, and what level of service they expect.

We could ask the same question, "How many police officers, firefighters and paramedics does the city need?"

The taxpayers get the level of protection and service that they pay for.

Former ( Conservative ) Ontario premier Bill Davis: Ford wrong to use notwithstanding clause
https://tvo.org/blog/current-affairs/former-ontario-premier-bill-davis-ford-wrong-to-use-notwithstanding-clause

For reference to the discussion, prior to 1998, Toronto had well over 100 councillors, and six mayors and six city halls.

The geographic size remains the same now as it was prior to 1998. The geographic area remains the same now as it was in 1954.

I am sure the population has increased significantly since then, however.


 
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 12, 2018, 15:34:21
Less representation in the name of: cost saving?

Getting stuff done quicker.
Not being slowed down by endless red tape and bureaucracy.
Trimming fat.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 12, 2018, 15:36:25
Why?

Because the core of my question is will this action of cutting councilors actually improve the situation in Toronto or make it worse.

Common complaint, it takes forever to get anything done and there's too many hands in the pot. Will axeing these counclers fix that?
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 12, 2018, 15:40:43
Regarding whatever the correct the ratio of councillors to residents is.

Worth mentioning that one-third of Canada's population lives within 160 km of Toronto.

A significant percentage of them come into Toronto for employment, or other reasons.

So, the work these councillors do has an impact on them as well. Even though they pay their property taxes to other municipalities.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mick on September 12, 2018, 15:48:56
Getting stuff done quicker.
Not being slowed down by endless red tape and bureaucracy.
Trimming fat.

Are we now counting elected officials as part of the bureaucracy?  Does parliamentary process count as "red tape"?  Is democratic debate the process that needs to be culled?  Or is it implementation of that is slowed by bureaucratic processes and delays (by the actual bureaucracy)?

Using the same logic, why not cut the number of federal MPs in half?

Will Premier Ford "trim fat" by reducing Ontario MPPs by half?
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Remius on September 12, 2018, 16:10:21
Because the core of my question is will this action of cutting councilors actually improve the situation in Toronto or make it worse.

Common complaint, it takes forever to get anything done and there's too many hands in the pot. Will axeing these counclers fix that?

Honest question, because I'm not from Toronto.  What is slowing things down and not getting done?  What is the real reason for the council's dysfunction if it exists at all?

I'm all for efficiency but I would like to know what is inefficient about Toronto that other cities are excluded from the axe?  In Ottawa the Light rail has been delayed twice now and it took years to build a pedestrian bridge.  Was it too many councillors?  Lack of councillors?  Not really, just bad contracts and shoddy city staff work.

Over the years, would not a drug using Mayor with one mess after another supported by his brother be a source of dysfunction?

Apparently this guy , a Ford ally is one such source of problems...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/matt-elliott-on-councillor-giorgio-mammoliti-1.4799032

I agree that the Premier can do this and is well within his right.  How he went about it, the timing and the perception though isn't that good though.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 12, 2018, 16:25:18
Honest question, because I'm not from Toronto.  What is slowing things down and not getting done?  What is the real reason for the council's dysfunction if it exists at all?

I'm all for efficiency but I would like to know what is inefficient about Toronto that other cities are excluded from the axe?  In Ottawa the Light rail has been delayed twice now and it took years to build a pedestrian bridge.  Was it too many councillors?  Lack of councillors?  Not really, just bad contracts and shoddy city staff work.

Over the years, would not a drug using Mayor with one mess after another supported by his brother be a source of dysfunction?

Apparently this guy , a Ford ally is one such source of problems...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/matt-elliott-on-councillor-giorgio-mammoliti-1.4799032

I agree that the Premier can do this and is well within his right.  How he went about it, the timing and the perception though isn't that good though.

Rob and Doug made Toronto ( the forth largest city in North America, only NYC, LA and Mexico City are bigger ) the laughingstock of the world and a staple on the American late night talk show circuit. Who are the clowns - our city councillors, who held our government together, or the Fords, who brought it to its knees?

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Fishbone Jones on September 12, 2018, 16:30:12
2018 Salaries   
Councillor’s salary   $114,306.06
Mayor’s salary   $192,503.43

This is their base salary. Most, if not all, also make thousands more sitting on committees and boards.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Mayor's real wage was approx $250,000
Same thing goes for councillor's. More money from committees and appointments.

Not to mention all the perks.

The numbers posted on the website do not indicate a politicians true wage or the true cost of their benefits.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 12, 2018, 16:50:16
I wouldn't be surprised if the Mayor's real wage was approx $250,000

CBC News

Mar 23, 2018

Ontario releases its annual Sunshine List of top public sector salaries

Toronto Mayor John Tory earned $188,529.02
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-sunshine-list-2017-public-sector-salary-disclosure-1.4589673

END QUOTE

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Fishbone Jones on September 12, 2018, 16:53:28
So they can't even get the info right on the website?

Good thing they have all that high priced help.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Brad Sallows on September 12, 2018, 17:11:27
"City of Vancouver" =/= "Metro Vancouver".  See here ("Membership"). (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Vancouver_Regional_District#Demographics)

City of Vancouver has a mayor and 11 council members.  So yes: about 55,000+people per member.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: PuckChaser on September 12, 2018, 17:19:33
A Toronto city councillor's pay is about $112,000.

Link I found had erroneous labelled the mayor's salary as Councillor average, thanks for the clarification.

You can keep the trolling to yourself, however.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Cloud Cover on September 12, 2018, 20:49:35

Will Premier Ford "trim fat" by reducing Ontario MPPs by half?

Just the ones with a propensity to dis the Ford Nation, apparently.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: FJAG on September 12, 2018, 21:03:13
Quote
Federal Disallowance Can’t Be Used To Block Ford’s Use Of Notwithstanding Clause
Voters who are displeased will have to take it out at the ballot box.
By Emma Paling

Ontarians who are upset about Premier Doug Ford's move to overrule a court decision can protest, speak up in the media and put pressure on their MPPs, constitutional law experts say. There are no other tricks left in the book to stop him.

. . .

"Forget that," University of Toronto professor Nelson Wiseman told HuffPost Canada in an interview. "I'm not even sure it's technically possible. You'd have a major constitutional crisis."

Disallowance is what's known as a "spent power." Spent powers are technically on the books, but they're so old they cannot be used. A federal government last used disallowance in 1943.

"It's like thinking that the Governor General can decide she wants to appoint you the next prime minister and dismisses Justin Trudeau," Wiseman said. "The constitution says she can do that, can't she? But would anybody stand for it?"

. . .


Wiseman and Macfarlane also agreed that the judge's decision to declare Ford's law unconstitutional was not sound.

Justice Edward Belobaba ruled on Monday that the province's Better Local Governments Act was unconstitutional because a municipal election was already underway. The law, which moves to slash the size of Toronto's city council nearly in half, violated voters' right to effective representation and candidates' right to freedom of expression, Belobaba said in his decision.

"I thought the judge was off his rocker yesterday," Wiseman said. "I thought Ford was actually accurate when he said every constitutional person he ran this by thought it was perfectly OK."

See full article here:

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/09/11/federal-disallowance-can-t-be-used-to-block-ford-s-use-of-notwithstanding-clause_a_23524147/?utm_hp_ref=ca-homepage (https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/09/11/federal-disallowance-can-t-be-used-to-block-ford-s-use-of-notwithstanding-clause_a_23524147/?utm_hp_ref=ca-homepage)

 :cheers:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 12, 2018, 21:13:59
Just the ones with a propensity to dis the Ford Nation, apparently.

Karma time for City Hall, apparently,
"You guys have just attacked Kuwait!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P183mGLvkI
Check out Doug.  :)
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Blackadder1916 on September 12, 2018, 22:43:03
So they can't even get the info right on the website?

Good thing they have all that high priced help.

Yes, it is a good thing that they have high priced help.  And they do have their figures right.

The $188k amount as reported in the CBC article is based on the annual reports that the city have on line (https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2018/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-113977.pdf).  It is the historical amount that the mayor earned in 2017.  (They seem to do their fiscal year reporting in calendar years)  The $192K amount is the salary that Mayor Tory is projected to earn in 2018 (the year is not over yet) The difference is likely due to the automatic salary increase that takes effect on 1 Jan of each year to reflect the change in the CPI for Toronto, which for the past year was 2.1%.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 12, 2018, 23:05:45
Public sector salary disclosure 2017 calendar year, aka "The Sunshine List":

Mayor Tory, John

Salary paid: $188,529.02

Taxable benefits $1,408.22

https://www.ontario.ca/page/public-sector-salary-disclosure-2017-all-sectors-and-seconded-employees



Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Bluebulldog on September 13, 2018, 09:58:08
I read Los Angeles has twice Toronto's population and only 15 councilors. Vancouver has 11.

The biggest complaint in my opinion seems to be that there are too many politicians in Toronto to get anything done in a timely manner.

So personal feelings about Ford aside, is he right?
IS there too many councilors to get anything done?
Will cutting the numbers in half improve the system?

Ford talked about reducing the government, kind of sounds exactly what he's trying to do.

Actually. The LA model ( and indeed other similar cities) works quite well from a representation standpoint.

A councillor is the one that actually attends the meetings where things are tabled and voted on. However, they aren't always the ones dealing with the faces. There are a number of appointees ( staff, who do that, typically called aldermen, etc who represent the populace in a given geographic area, or ward).

Cutting city council isn't a bad thing if it gets mired by the differing agendas, people wishing to be heard etc.....

Pretty sure Ford didn't say that the GTA couldn't restructure so that each councillor was able to appoint / hire and alderman to assist in determining the needs of their constituents either. For that matter, they might not even need to be FT positions.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Journeyman on September 13, 2018, 10:13:25
I'm sorry, but I just can't see this as anything but a petulant vendetta by Ford against a city council for having mocked and 'disrespected' him and his brother for their abysmal behaviour and council attendance. 

It seems to be a growing theme in contemporary politics, and some social circles.

 :2c:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on September 13, 2018, 10:38:38
I'm sorry, but I just can't see this as anything but a petulant vendetta by Ford against a city council for having mocked and 'disrespected' him and his brother for their abysmal behaviour and council attendance. 

It seems to be a growing theme in contemporary politics, and some social circles.

 :2c:

Probably is...but I'm glad you think politics was all sunshine and rainbows before now....

Oh, you meant like that? ;D
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Journeyman on September 13, 2018, 11:01:00
Probably is...but I'm glad you think politics was all sunshine and rainbows before now....

Oh, you meant like that? ;D
Well, more unicorns and rainbows.... (as in excellent examples are non-existent or fleetingly rare)  :nod:

No, politics has always had a degree of 'mud-wrestling with a pig' to it, but I think messing with Charter of Rights and Constitutional issues, plus trash-talking the judiciary (Canada actually has a pretty respectable one), just to *****-slap some people who hurt your feelings is pretty petty.... even by the low standards expected from Ford.   ::)
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: PuckChaser on September 13, 2018, 13:49:44
Almost every constitutional law expert that's been interviewed on the case has said the judge was completely wrong in his decision, so I'm not sure where the Charter is being messed with. In fact, its pretty telling that the judge had to reach into freedom of expression instead of democratic rights, because democratic rights do not apply to municipal elections.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: QV on September 13, 2018, 15:42:55
How do you mess with the charter when the action you take is empowered by the charter?
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: FJAG on September 13, 2018, 19:07:21
Just for the record, when the City council voted in 2017 to increase the number of wards from 44 to 47, there was considerable opposition to it and in fact many (including some councillors) favoured the 25 ward system. The matter ultimately went to the Ontario Municipal Board for a review on the grounds that the 47 wards would not have voter parity due to unequal distribution of voters. It is notable that of the three OMB members, one-Blair S Taylor-dissented and would have imposed a system using the 25 federal riding boundaries.

There are some interesting facts including the one that starting in 2000 and lasting until 2017, the city used the then existing 22 federal ridings as the basis of their wards taking each riding and dividing it in half so that there were 44 councillors representing roughly 60,000 people each. Going back to the federal ridings should therefore not be that difficult albeit that there are now 25 and that under the Ford legislation there is only one councillor for each and therefore representing about 120,000 people.

The real issue it seems is not so much the voter parity (because everyone acknowledged that the 47 ward system that the city designed wouldn't achieve that anyway for a few elections but the number of people being represented by each councillor. In fact the federal riding system achieved better immediate voter parity than the 47 ward system. The dissenting board member stated:

Quote
[52] Sixth, I find that the use of the FEDS {federal electoral district} would result in a fair election in 2018, that the continued use of the FEDS would provide the basis for future elections that are fair, that they will result in boundaries that are derived from regular, thorough, arms-length, open public processes and which can be quickly, reliably, and relatively inexpensively adjusted and adopted by the City on an ongoing basis.

[53]Finally, I strongly disagree with the submission of City’s counsel that: “…there is no jurisdiction or statutory authority that the City must achieve parity [of voter/population] in any particular time frame”

[54] I find that the City is dealing with a fundamental right provided under the Charter such that when the City is proposing a ward boundary review, the cornerstone of such a review must seek to achieve acceptable voter/population parity for the forthcoming election and not be aimed at an election event in 2026, (eight years hence following innumerable City Council votes, resolutions and By-laws), the result of which would be to unduly dilute the fundamental, Charter given, right to vote for thousands of citizens during that entire intervening period. In short, I find that the Charter provides the  jurisdiction and the authority that requires the City to achieve parity [of voter/population] in 2018

[55] There will be those who will say that the FEDS with 25 wards will result in 50 councillors. That might be, but that is an issue that the Board has no jurisdiction over. That decision rests solely with City Council.

[56] However, it appears to this Member that there are a host of options open to the City, including but not limited to these four as set out by Dr. Sancton:
1. 25 councillors (1 councillor per ward);
2. 30 councillors with 25 councillors (1 per ward) plus 1 area councillor for each five groupings of five wards;
3. 35 councillors with 25 councillors (1 per ward) plus 10 councillors elected at large; or
4. 50 councillors with 2 councillors elected per ward.

[57] City Council has the jurisdiction to make decisions on the number of councillors, and I would have left that to City Council.

Or, of course, the decision on the number of councillors is also one within the jurisdiction of the provincial government.

See full decision in this article:

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2017/12/13/omb-approves-47-wards-for-toronto-for-the-2018-election.html (https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2017/12/13/omb-approves-47-wards-for-toronto-for-the-2018-election.html)

Long story short, from a constitutional point of view, using the federal ward system achieves voter parity before the 47 ward system by probably some two elections and is therefore the federal ward system is more constitutionally sound. The number of councillors is an open question as to whether it should be 25 or 50 but typically, the larger a committee becomes, the more dysfunctional it is as a decision making body.

I'm not a member of Ford Nation but I think that his use of the notwithstanding clause is fundamentally defensible in this very unique case.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Brad Sallows on September 13, 2018, 20:51:47
The ratio of council members to citizens is a bit of a red herring.  City of Vancouver has 11.  Township of Langley, with less than 1/5 the population of Vancouver (but over 2.5 times the land area), has 8.  Kamloops, with less than 1/7 the population of Vancouver (and also with 2.5+ times the land area), has 8.

I don't know whether there is a statutory minimum, and don't care - it's beside the point.  Clearly the number of council members doesn't have to be scaled up linearly with population in order for a municipal government to function effectively.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Cloud Cover on September 13, 2018, 22:03:11
Listened to Canada Talks on Sirius tonight, I think it was the CBC slot. They called the segment The Premiers Power Hour. 3 former provincial leaders were on the line. (Christie Clark, Brad Wahl and Jean Charest). All 3 of them concurred, without hesitation, that section 33 was the right call.
Further, Clarke and Charest both made statements that this has been a “long time coming”, and that courts have become far too “adventuresome” (word attribution-Clarke), have “ misinterpreted their role and ultimately it is the divine right of a Parliament in a democracy to have the final say” (statement attribute to Charest) and, according Wahl, Premiers can sleep peacefully as he did when he used S33.
Clarke opined that unless Trudeau wants to trigger an epic constitutional crisis that could see the provinces push for a constitutional change that limits much further the activity of the courts, the federal Liberals had better be careful.  It seems that maybe a few premiers (current and former) were consulted before the trigger was pulled. 
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: FJAG on September 13, 2018, 22:40:04
The ratio of council members to citizens is a bit of a red herring.  City of Vancouver has 11.  Township of Langley, with less than 1/5 the population of Vancouver (but over 2.5 times the land area), has 8.  Kamloops, with less than 1/7 the population of Vancouver (and also with 2.5+ times the land area), has 8.

I don't know whether there is a statutory minimum, and don't care - it's beside the point.  Clearly the number of council members doesn't have to be scaled up linearly with population in order for a municipal government to function effectively.

In fairness to Toronto, it has a population of 2,731,571 while Vancouver is 631,486 or 4.3 times the size. With 11 counsellors, Vancouver has roughly 60,000 people per councillor which is roughly what ratio Toronto has now at 47.

I agree with you. I don't believe that there is a ratio issue or that 60,000 people represented by one councillor has some kind of magic to it. IMHO (others, including the present council of Toronto, obviously disagree) the number of councillors should be determined according to how efficiently the council will function. That's best done through smaller councils with efficient rules of order for council meetings and committee work.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 14, 2018, 10:37:44
In fairness to Toronto, it has a population of 2,731,571 while Vancouver is 631,486 or 4.3 times the size. With 11 counsellors, Vancouver has roughly 60,000 people per councillor which is roughly what ratio Toronto has now at 47.

Whatever the math, Toronto is the fourth most populous city in North America, behind Mexico City, New York City and Los Angeles.

That does not include the GTA ( Durham, Halton, Peel and York ).

Prior to amalgamation, our political structure was one Chairman, six mayors, and 28 wards.

( East York had 1 ward, Etobicoke 4, North York 7, Scarborough 6, Toronto 8, York 2. )

Each of those 28 wards had two councillors, for a total of 56 councillors, six mayors and one chairperson.

It seems as our population increases, our political representation decreases.

For example, our councillor in Swansea announced yesterday she will not be seeking re-election. That's unfortunate. She and her family lived in our neighbourhood for many years and we knew them. She worked at the Swansea Town Hall since 2004. She became our councillor in 2010, and was re-elected in 2014.

She is a part of our community.

She also knows Doug from his one term at City Hall, and failed mayoral campaign,

"We know what he wants to do. Now, unfortunately, he's capable of doing these vindictive things he threatened to do when he was a councillor," she said.

My uneducated guess is that much needed transit projects could be on the chopping block next.

The King Street pilot project will likely be the first to go.



 
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Infanteer on September 14, 2018, 12:08:52
In fairness to Toronto, it has a population of 2,731,571 while Vancouver is 631,486 or 4.3 times the size. With 11 counsellors, Vancouver has roughly 60,000 people per councillor which is roughly what ratio Toronto has now at 47.

As well, Toronto amalgamated, while Vancouver has not.  How many councilors do Vancouver, Burnaby, North Vancouver, West Vancouver, Richmond, Surrey, Delta and Langley have together?

Either way, you are right in your latter statement - I don't care what the ratio of electors to councilors is, I care on how efficiently and effectively the city is run. 
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 14, 2018, 12:38:56
From what I remember of the Ford Nation era, my uneducated guess is that he has only just begun to take care of Toronto.

There seems to be little to stop the province from taking over the Toronto Transit Commission ( TTC ).

Or any other Agency, Board, Commission, Department or Service ( the ABCDS ) operated by the city.

He could abolish the City of Toronto Act ( 2006 ) without input from the city.

I care on how efficiently and effectively the city is run.

I live here, so I do too.

You get what you pay for. Depends on what level of service one expects.

Personally, with a budget the size of Toronto's, I like the idea of a sufficient number of councillors to keep an eye on it - and each other.

"In Vegas, everybody's gotta watch everybody else. Since the players are looking to beat the casino, the dealers are watching the players. The box men are watching the dealers. The floor men are watching the box men. The pit bosses are watching the floor men. The shift bosses are watching the pit bosses. The casino manager is watching the shift bosses. I'm watching the casino manager. And the eye-in-the-sky is watching us all."


Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: X Royal on September 14, 2018, 13:04:26
I'm sorry, but I just can't see this as anything but a petulant vendetta by Ford against a city council for having mocked and 'disrespected' him and his brother for their abysmal behaviour and council attendance. 

It seems to be a growing theme in contemporary politics, and some social circles.

 :2c:
I fully agree that it is vendetta by Ford against Toronto council.
If it wasn't many other Ontario cities would have also been targeted.
Why not Ottawa, London, Hamilton, Windsor ect?
Because Ford is upset that Toronto failed to elect him as mayor?
 
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Brad Sallows on September 14, 2018, 13:46:32
If 5 communities of 120K pop, 1 mayor, and 8 council members each were amalgamated into a Vancouver-sized city, I'd expect the 5+40 to drop to 1+11.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Cloud Cover on September 14, 2018, 14:11:40
[quote author=Infanteer link=topic=128488.msg1548209#msg1548209 date=1536937732

Either way, you are right in your latter statement - I don't care what the ratio of electors to councilors is, I care on how efficiently and effectively the city is run.
[/quote]

Municipal government is the level of government that is closest to me, not the province or the feds. It seems to me the easier it is to get hold of a person who actually is familiar with my neighbourhood is going to be far more understanding about the impact of delivery of services in my neighbourhood. I have often felt that with all the municipal downloading that has occurred in Ontario, more entrenched municipal authority and better representation at the local level far outweighs the importance of representation numbers that are equal to the provincial or federal riding distribution level.

While I 100 percent agree that the judge made more than a palpable error in his decision about Bill 5, and using 33 was probably the most expedient thing to be done, I'm not impressed with the idea that "finding efficiencies" means taking the axe to local government. If anything, improving local government representation and resources would probably end up being cheaper in the long run. What Ford is doing is creating "bigger" government, not efficient government. It is "bigger" interns of distancing itself from neighbourhoods.
What Ford could have done is change the municipal act to prevent municipalities from engaging in wedge politics issues, like parade permits, sanctuary cities etc. The primary and maybe even the only purpose would be infrastructure, services, zoning and related bylaws and useful things like that. Nothing else to be debated, considered, discussed at taxpayer expense and no power or authority given to a municipality to go down contentious social engineering paths, in fact potentially use legislation to preclude them from even considering it.   I would trade 100 city hall political staff, bureaucrats, lawyers, advisors etc. for 100 more snowplow drivers, crossing guards, health unit nurses, sanitation workers and other services that are more pragmatic.

Fortunately I live in a municipality where many of our board members etc. are volunteers or receive a small yearly stipend. They make decisions like whether to refresh the gravel road, ditch digging and culvert replacement projects, and whether they should send a letter to Joe Bloggins to remind him to fix his fence so his frickin' sheep stay off the road. These are not, obviously, big city problems and it seems to me mega cities have mega problems to address at the municipal level. Ford has not explained how a smaller council can solve those problems, nor has John Tory et al adequately explained how 47 seat council would solve them either.

There are many issues where section 33 could have and probably should be used in the coming months, local government is not one of them.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 14, 2018, 17:45:49
I'm not impressed with the idea that "finding efficiencies" means taking the axe to local government.

It would have been nice if he had mentioned to Toronto voters that he was going to take an axe to their council before the provincial election.

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: FJAG on September 14, 2018, 21:38:22
. . .
Fortunately I live in a municipality where many of our board members etc. are volunteers or receive a small yearly stipend. They make decisions like whether to refresh the gravel road, ditch digging and culvert replacement projects, and whether they should send a letter to Joe Bloggins to remind him to fix his fence so his frickin' sheep stay off the road. These are not, obviously, big city problems and it seems to me mega cities have mega problems to address at the municipal level. Ford has not explained how a smaller council can solve those problems, nor has John Tory et al adequately explained how 47 seat council would solve them either.
. . .

That to me in a nutshell is what's wrong with most municipal councils and why large ones don't work. These are the type of routine decisions that should be made by staff based on policy guidance/limitations provided by council.

Councils should be the visionaries for a municipality. They should set overarching policy based on staff studies and create a vision for the municipality's future. Rather than making routine decisions, they set limits within which staff is free to make all routine decisions and accomplish the council's vision. The more members that a council has the more likely it is to waste energy and time meddling in matters that should be dealt with by staff. This in turn this undermines the staff's authority and makes them less likely to use their own initiative.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: FJAG on September 19, 2018, 12:06:20
The Ontario Court of Appeal has now ruled and released it's decision re the Toronto Council Ward matter.

In short the court stayed the ruling of Justice Belobaba clearing the way for the election to proceed on a 25 ward basis without the need for the legislature to use the "notwithstanding clause".

Along the way the court said the following about Belobaba's decision:

Quote
[12]       The application judge’s interpretation appears to stretch both the wording and the purpose of s. 2(b) beyond the limits of that provision. His decision blurs the demarcation between two distinct provisions of the Charter: the protection of expressive activity in s. 2(b) and the s. 3 guarantee of the democratic rights of citizens to vote and be qualified for office. The s. 3 right to vote and stand for office applies only with respect to elections to the House of Commons and the provincial legislatures: Haig v. Canada, [1993] 2 S.C.R. 995, at pp. 1031, 1033. Section 3 does not apply to municipal elections and has no bearing on the issues raised in this case.. . .

[18]       Finally, the application judge’s conclusion that Ontario substantially interfered with the voter’s right of freedom of expression when it doubled the ward population size from a 61,000 average to a 110,000 average cannot be supported. The size of the City’s electoral wards is a question of policy and choice to be determined by the legislative process subject to other provisions of the Charter, including s. 15(1). Whether wards of 61,000 or 110,000 are required to ensure effective representation is a debatable issue that cannot be determined by reference to the right to freedom of expression. Further, we share the application judge’s inclination that there is no infringement of s. 15(1).  . . .

[20]       Our finding of a strong prima facie case on appeal bears upon the analysis under the second and third prongs of the RJR-MacDonald framework: see RJR-MacDonald, at p. 339. We recognize that in this case, Ontario does not have a monopoly on the public interest and that the City also speaks for the public interest. However, having acceded to the argument of the respondents that the more exacting “strong likelihood of success” standard should be applied and having reached the decision that the judgment under appeal was probably wrongly decided, we have no doubt that the moving party would suffer irreparable harm if a stay were not granted. It is not in the public interest to permit the impending election to proceed on the basis of a dubious ruling that invalidates legislation duly passed by the Legislature. We do not accept the respondents’ submission that, because Ontario exercised its legislative authority to enact Bill 5, it does not have “clean hands” and should not be entitled to the equitable relief of a stay from this court.

See the whole decision here:

http://www.ontariocourts.ca/decisions/2018/2018ONCA0761.htm (http://www.ontariocourts.ca/decisions/2018/2018ONCA0761.htm)

And the CBC's take on it here:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ford-court-toronto-council-1.4829250 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ford-court-toronto-council-1.4829250)

 :cheers:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Furniture on September 19, 2018, 12:55:27
My favourite line in the CBC article; "Unfairness alone does not establish a charter breach."

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: FSTO on September 19, 2018, 14:09:42
I have to chuckle when big city mayors go on how they are beholding to the provinces, they should be their own entity and that they shouldn't be ruled by the rural vote.

Excuse me? Last I looked at the federal cabinet all the heavy hitters are from urban ridings and all the provincial cabinet heavies are from urban ridings. In fact in a province like Manitoba, the city of Winnipeg has more seats in the provincial legislature than the rest of the province. I'm pretty sure the Ontario legislature is close to 50% Toronto.

So big cities don't whine to me about your lack of power. In my view you have more than enough power to influence the federal and provincial to bend to your will. I worry about the tyranny of the majority of urban governments when it comes to national infrastructure (ie - pipelines, solar and wind power generation) that can adversely affect rural Canada.


Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Blackadder1916 on September 19, 2018, 14:29:21
. . . I'm pretty sure the Ontario legislature is close to 50% Toronto.


Since this whole issue is about reducing the number of Toronto municipal wards to the same number and boundaries as the current federal and provincial ridings that are within the city, it is easy to figure out how many Torontonians sit in the legislature - 25.  Out of a 124 seat legislature, that makes it closer to 20%.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: FSTO on September 19, 2018, 14:37:18
Since this whole issue is about reducing the number of Toronto municipal wards to the same number and boundaries as the current federal and provincial ridings that are within the city, it is easy to figure out how many Torontonians sit in the legislature - 25.  Out of a 124 seat legislature, that makes it closer to 20%.

Thanks, I pulled my number out of thin air.
My point still stands, by sheer numbers urban Canada has all the power it needs.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 19, 2018, 14:40:57
Thanks, I pulled my number out of thin air.

Fact check,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Toronto#Members_of_Provincial_Parliament

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Cloud Cover on September 19, 2018, 16:00:07
There are 121 Federal Ridings in Ontario, and 124 Provincial Ridings.
The GTA is by far the electoral powerhouse in Ontario with 58 Federal ridings of which there are 25 in Toronto proper.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 20, 2018, 00:20:44
The GTA is by far the electoral powerhouse in Ontario < snip >

Half the population of Ontario lives in the GTA ( Halton, Peel, York, Durham and Toronto ).
https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2011/dp-pd/hlt-fst/pd-pl/Table-Tableau.cfm?LANG=Eng&T=302&SR=1&S=3&O=D&RPP=9999&PR=35

Without the GTA ( population 6,054,191 ), the population of Ontario would shrink to 6,797,630.

If the boundaries were redefined to also include the adjacent city of Hamilton to turn the contiguous Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area ( GTHA ), it would supersede the resized province of Ontario as the 2nd largest province by population.

That's from the 2011 census. I believe the population of the GTA has increased considerably since then.

                 
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 20, 2018, 05:20:26
Half the population of Ontario lives in the GTA ( Halton, Peel, York, Durham and Toronto ).


Is Toronto the provincial epicenter for our economy as well?  Like, is Toronto responsible for most of our revenue or whatever its called?
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 20, 2018, 08:34:42
Is Toronto the provincial epicenter for our economy as well?

You can look that up for yourself,
https://www.google.com/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&ei=ZYajW6DiMauLjwT4l4WACw&q=toronto+%22economic+engine%22&oq=toronto+%22economic+engine%22&gs_l=psy-ab.12..0i22i30k1.27615.31297.0.33720.2.2.0.0.0.0.91.176.2.2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.2.172...0i30k1.0.Q6CNr9W2fYw

My reply was to this,

The GTA is by far the electoral powerhouse in Ontario < snip >

I'm not an economist. But, I can offer a couple of anecdotal examples about jobs and property values,

When Ontario forced Metro to rescind the Residency Requirement for our city emergency services ( prior to that, recruits had to be long term Metro residents ), it was/is amazing how many applicants suddenly flooded in from out of town,

eg: "I found it interesting that those fire fighters with many years experience with a full-time fire department elsewhere were willing to leave to pursue there ( sic ) “dreams” as they put it and work for Toronto Fire. It made me feel a little bit special that I have been a part of an organization that others envy and want to be a part of as well."
https://www.torontofirefighters.org/wp-content/uploads/firewatch/Spring2009.pdf
Secretary - Treasurer,
Toronto Professional Fire Fighters’ Association
I.A.F.F. Local 3888

At least in my neighbourhood, property values have increased substantially over the years.

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 20, 2018, 09:55:40
Well, maybe you can help me with my maths then.

Empire Toronto makes up almost 50% of Ontario's population.

The Liberals sucked so bad that they even lost their party status.

So not just 'the rest' of Ontario wanted Ford elected but a good chunk of Toronto as well?
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 20, 2018, 11:13:46
Empire Toronto makes up almost 50% of Ontario's population.

You use the word "Empire" about Toronto. I suggest you look up the meaning.

So not just 'the rest' of Ontario wanted Ford elected but a good chunk of Toronto as well?

Toronto rejected Ford Nation years ago.

In 2013, City Council removed Rob's powers as Mayor of Toronto and transferred them to Deputy Mayor Norm Kelly.

As a matter of public safety, this included his power to govern the city during a state of emergency.

Rob likened it to a coup d'état and compared his situation with the 1990 invasion of Kuwait, promising "outright war" in response to the councillors who voted to remove his powers.

I guess, in a way, he is getting karma on the city from the grave.

Add to that, the humiliation of Doug's defeat by John Tory in the 2014 mayoral election.

Reply #210
It would have been nice if Doug had mentioned to Toronto voters that he was going to take an axe to their council before the provincial election.








Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 20, 2018, 11:43:56
You use the word "Empire" about Toronto. I suggest you look up the meaning.



1. an extensive group of states or countries ruled over by a single monarch, an oligarchy, or a sovereign state.
2.an extensive sphere of activity controlled by one person or group.

So like a bunch of smaller cities ruled by by an oligarchy ( a small group of people having control of a country or organization.

Seems accurate enough to me.

Quote
Toronto rejected Ford Nation years ago.
Did they?  If Toronto makes up half of Ontario's population, and you've provided an excellent source supporting that, why then did Ford have such a sweeping victory? Why did the Liberals lose their party status?

Did all or even most of Toronto vote Liberal?
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 20, 2018, 12:19:59
1. an extensive group of states or countries ruled over by a single monarch, an oligarchy, or a sovereign state.
2.an extensive sphere of activity controlled by one person or group.

So like a bunch of smaller cities ruled by by an oligarchy ( a small group of people having control of a country or organization.

Seems accurate enough to me.

Must I remind you, again, that our Emperor mayor at City Hall can't even install a speed bump without permission from the Emperor premier at Queen's Park.

If you want to call people and places empires and emperors, you should read this,
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/doug-ford-premier-powers-1.4764817

Seems accurate enough to me.
Did they?  If Toronto makes up half of Ontario's population, and you've provided an excellent source supporting that, why then did Ford have such a sweeping victory? Why did the Liberals lose their party status?

Did all or even most of Toronto vote Liberal?

I don't follow party politics.

As far as I am concerned, ( I'll say it again ) there is no Liberal or Conservative way to fix a sewer.

So not just 'the rest' of Ontario wanted Ford elected but a good chunk of Toronto as well?

You asked. I answered. Toronto rejected Rob ( 2013 ) and Doug ( 2014 ) Ford.

As far as party politics are concerned, I suspect people who are going to vote Conservative are going to vote Conservative no matter who is running the party. Patrick Brown, Christine Elliott, Doug Ford, Tanya Granic Allen, Caroline Mulroney ...

My question would be, did the Conservatives get in because of Doug, or in spite of Doug?

Compared to Toronto's 2014 mayoral election, Doug's time on the provincial campaign trail was a lot shorter.

He also seemed relatively subdued compared to his behavior at City Hall and during the mayoral election campaign.

Perhaps he understood, or it was explained to him, that unlike municipal politics, the election is less about him, and more about the party. The Conservatives seemed likely to get in even before Doug hit the provincial campaign trail.


Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Remius on September 20, 2018, 12:24:57
They got in because of Kathleen Wynee.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 20, 2018, 12:31:01
They got in because of Kathleen Wynee.

My uneducated guess is that they would have got in if Patrick Brown, Christine Elliott, Doug Ford, Tanya Granic Allen, Caroline Mulroney ... was their candidate.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: YZT580 on September 20, 2018, 12:42:17
My uneducated [ctiolor=yellow]guess[/color] is that they would have got in if Patrick Brown, Christine Elliott, Doug Ford, Tanya Granic Allen, Caroline Mulroney ... was their candidate.
Quite likely they would have succeeded but Toronto voted for the party WITH Doug and, since they had seen him in action in city council they knew exactly what they were voting for. 
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 20, 2018, 12:58:44
Quite likely they would have succeeded but Toronto voted for the party WITH Doug and, since they had seen him in action in city council they knew exactly what they were voting for.

As someone eligible to vote in Toronto elections, I do not recall Doug mentioning his intent to immediately cut our council in half before our fall municipal election.

I also do not recall him threatening the use the Notwithstanding Clause ( as if anyone ever heard of it, because it has never been used in Ontario ) if he does not get his way with City Hall.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Colin P on September 20, 2018, 13:10:10
My uneducated guess is that they would have got in if Patrick Brown, Christine Elliott, Doug Ford, Tanya Granic Allen, Caroline Mulroney ... was their candidate.

In Canada, most governments are "unelected" rather than governments getting elected, the other party just wins by just not being the party currently out of favour.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on September 20, 2018, 13:17:54
In Canada, most governments are "unelected" rather than governments getting elected, the other party just wins by just not being the party currently out of favour.

From what I have read, it sounds like the Conservatives were going to get in - with or without Doug.

Someone put it this way,

They got in because of Kathleen Wynee.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Furniture on September 20, 2018, 14:37:04
As someone eligible to vote in Toronto elections, I do not recall Doug mentioning his intent to immediately cut our council in half before our fall municipal election.

I also do not recall him threatening the use the Notwithstanding Clause ( as if anyone ever heard of it, because it has never been used in Ontario ) if he does not get his way with City Hall.


Lack of knowledge of the "not withstanding" clause is more likely due to a lack of awareness of politics in areas outside the centre of the universe. It's been discussed at length in the media  whenever it's brought up by a politician, particularly one the media doesn't like.

Toronto's urban progressives will get back in power some day again, and I'm sure they'll go back to pandering to urbanites. Maybe expanding city councils will be their number one priority, or maybe a 25 member city council will be great and all the fuss will have been for nothing.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Remius on September 20, 2018, 14:48:50
People and parties in power have all sorts of tools they can use.  The notwithstanding clause, prorogation, recalling parliament etc etc.  We should always assume that they will use any one of those things to further their agenda or what they think is right. 
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: YZT580 on September 20, 2018, 17:22:08
The not withstanding clause should be used more frequently than it has been.  It was placed there in the first place to prevent the courts from becoming the de facto legislators.  It protects us from having an un-elected organisation deciding what is 'democratic' or reading intent into legislation that was never intended.  I am actually grateful that an elected official had the guts to actually use it and in retrospect the ruling from the court of appeal upheld Ford's position (fair or not).   
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Furniture on September 20, 2018, 17:49:12
The not withstanding clause should be used more frequently than it has been.  It was placed there in the first place to prevent the courts from becoming the de facto legislators.  It protects us from having an un-elected organisation deciding what is 'democratic' or reading intent into legislation that was never intended.  I am actually grateful that an elected official had the guts to actually use it and in retrospect the ruling from the court of appeal upheld Ford's position (fair or not).

My position on this is similar, it's a legitimate tool placed in the constitution to prevent abuse of power by the courts. The judge that ruled against the provincial government used a weak argument to try to prevent an elected government from doing what is completely in it's power to do.


Normally it seems the Canadian courts appear free of politics(to me at least), hopefully they can stay that way. Making decisions that appear politically driven diminishes the respect people have for the courts.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: FJAG on September 20, 2018, 18:21:53
My position on this is similar, it's a legitimate tool placed in the constitution to prevent abuse of power by the courts. The judge that ruled against the provincial government used a weak argument to try to prevent an elected government from doing what is completely in it's power to do.


Normally it seems the Canadian courts appear free of politics(to me at least), hopefully they can stay that way. Making decisions that appear politically driven diminishes the respect people have for the courts.

For the life of me I can't understand why so many here are fixated on the notion that there is an "abuse of power by the courts".

I won't rehash my views on this but to set matters straight, the "notwithstanding clause" provisions are designed to enshrine the British system of "parliamentary supremacy" so that ultimately, when a legislature thinks that an issue is important enough, they can temporarily enact a measure even if the measure is contrary to the Charter. Think of the Parti Quebeqois use of the clause in the early 1980s when every law they passed (as well as retroactively to all prior laws passed in Quebec) was made using the "notwithstanding" clause because they wanted to ensure that no Quebec law could ever be challenged in court. In effect they wanted to preempt the courts from challenging any Quebec law under the Charter.

Remember too that any use of the clause is limited to a five year term expressly to ensure that there will be an election before the clause can be reused so that the people have an opportunity to also voice their opinion through their vote on the issue.

Courts and legislatures each have their respective roles in an effort to have checks and balances in place. There is a much greater potential for elected officials to abuse their "powers" to further their party's agenda then there is for a tenured-for-life judge.

The judge in this case got it wrong. He tried to equate "unfair" with "unconstitutional". In short order, the Court of Appeal told him so. The system worked. In four years or so the electors of Toronto can tell Ford what they thought about him on this issue one way or the other. That too is the system working.

 [cheers]
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Furniture on September 20, 2018, 21:20:36
For the life of me I can't understand why so many here are fixated on the notion that there is an "abuse of power by the courts".

I won't rehash my views on this but to set matters straight, the "notwithstanding clause" provisions are designed to enshrine the British system of "parliamentary supremacy" so that ultimately, when a legislature thinks that an issue is important enough, they can temporarily enact a measure even if the measure is contrary to the Charter. Think of the Parti Quebeqois use of the clause in the early 1980s when every law they passed (as well as retroactively to all prior laws passed in Quebec) was made using the "notwithstanding" clause because they wanted to ensure that no Quebec law could ever be challenged in court. In effect they wanted to preempt the courts from challenging any Quebec law under the Charter.

Remember too that any use of the clause is limited to a five year term expressly to ensure that there will be an election before the clause can be reused so that the people have an opportunity to also voice their opinion through their vote on the issue.

Courts and legislatures each have their respective roles in an effort to have checks and balances in place. There is a much greater potential for elected officials to abuse their "powers" to further their party's agenda then there is for a tenured-for-life judge.

The judge in this case got it wrong. He tried to equate "unfair" with "unconstitutional". In short order, the Court of Appeal told him so. The system worked. In four years or so the electors of Toronto can tell Ford what they thought about him on this issue one way or the other. That too is the system working.

 [cheers]

I suppose I was going for brevity over clarity in the quoted post, I don't think there was an abuse of power in this case. Just  saying that the clause exists to place a check on the power of the courts, just as the courts are a check on the parliaments, as you said much more eloquently.  :bowdown:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: YZT580 on September 20, 2018, 22:01:06
FJAG, your logic is correct.  BUT using the same reasoning, the use of the not withstanding clause is a constitutional tool to ensure exactly the same result.  It can prevent the courts from having an unreasonable say in the way that the province or country is being governed.  It allows for the government to make a decision, the justice department to reject it, the government to apply the not withstanding clause and then the people to decide whether the government or the courts were correct.  It may not be a perfect check and balance but it covers most bases.  So I say again, I am very grateful that we had an elected official who was willing to go against the courts.  That is the way it is supposed to work and not just give in to the court's decision every time which is what has been happening. 
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: FJAG on September 20, 2018, 22:17:25
FJAG, your logic is correct.  BUT using the same reasoning, the use of the not withstanding clause is a constitutional tool to ensure exactly the same result.  It can prevent the courts from having an unreasonable say in the way that the province or country is being governed.  It allows for the government to make a decision, the justice department to reject it, the government to apply the not withstanding clause and then the people to decide whether the government or the courts were correct.  It may not be a perfect check and balance but it covers most bases.  So I say again, I am very grateful that we had an elected official who was willing to go against the courts.  That is the way it is supposed to work and not just give in to the court's decision every time which is what has been happening. 

I suppose I was going for brevity over clarity in the quoted post, I don't think there was an abuse of power in this case. Just  saying that the clause exists to place a check on the power of the courts, just as the courts are a check on the parliaments, as you said much more eloquently.  :bowdown:

The difference in our points of view is that I do not think that the "notwithstanding clause" was designed as a check on the courts (whether reasonable or unreasonable).

What the clause is, IMHO, is a check on the Charter itself. It's a tool that the legislatures gave themselves where any one of them can say: 'this legislation that we are passing is more important than a specific provision of the Charter and we're prepared to put our political reputation/future on the line over this issue'. The legislature can use the clause either retroactively where a court has interpreted a specific statute component as contravening the Charter or proactively, like in Quebec, to give a piece of legislation immunity from a challenge where they know it is going to be in contravention of the Charter even before a court deals with the issue.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: YZT580 on September 20, 2018, 23:42:32
The problem with your statement is quite simple: if I agree with you than it would imply that we are conceding a significant level of wisdom to the authors of the charter and that is a scary thought
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: FJAG on September 21, 2018, 00:26:39
The problem with your statement is quite simple: if I agree with you than it would imply that we are conceding a significant level of wisdom to the authors of the charter and that is a scary thought

The idea came from Peter Lougheed of Alberta and was supported by the western premiers in order to ensure parliamentary supremacy. Here's a short article in Lougheed's own words:

Quote
The Honourable E. Peter Lougheed
Why a Notwithstanding Clause?
Shortly after our government was sworn into office in September, 1971, I asked the new Attorney General, Merv Leitch, to prepare an Alberta Bill of Rights. This would be the first item of legislation to be introduced at the first session of the new Legislature in the spring of 1972.

Some weeks later Mr. Leitch asked to see me to discuss an important matter. He came to my office and described his progress in preparing Bill 1, the Alberta Bill of Rights. Merv said to me, "Premier, we will have to provide in this Bill for a notwithstanding clause!" I responded, "What the hell is a notwithstanding clause?"

Merv patiently explained to me that we needed to include a clause which allowed, if public policy dictated, for other Alberta laws to operate notwithstanding the Alberta Bill of Rights. He explained that this was required in the event that either the government wished to propose legislation contrary or at odds with the rights or freedoms contained in the Alberta Bill of Rights or a court ruled that a particular piece of Alberta legislation was invalid because it purported to authorize the abrogation or infringement of any of the rights or freedoms recognized and declared in the Alberta Bill of Rights. Thus came section 2 of the Alberta Bill of Rights.

Nine years later in Ottawa, in September 1980, at an open, televised First Ministers' Conference on the Constitution, Prime Minister Trudeau espoused the desirability of patriating the Canadian Constitution with a Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The Premiers of Saskatchewan and Manitoba, Allan Blakeney and Sterling Lyon, argued just as eloquently that such a Charter was not needed in Canada but that, in any event, the supremacy of Parliament should prevail over the appointed judiciary. I supported them on behalf of Albertans.

It was at this point that Merv Leitch engaged me in a private side discussion and suggested that I intervene by proposing a "notwithstanding clause" along the lines of section 2 of the Alberta Bill of Rights. I did so. My impression was that many around the table were not in any different a position than myself nine years earlier and were not knowledgeable about the concept. They did, though, couch their responses in more diplomatic language than I had done. In fact, a few said to me later that they had never heard of such a concept, although it had existed in obscurity in Mr. Diefenbaker's Bill of Rights for many years.

The concept, sometimes known as non-obstante, became an integral part of the constitutional drama that unfolded during the balance of 1980 and through 1981.

The final "deal" (sadly absent of Quebec) on November 5, 1981 was, as is almost always the case, a trade-off. Essentially Mr. Trudeau got his Charter of Rights and the Western Premiers got both the Alberta Amending Formula and a notwithstanding clause.

The notwithstanding clause reflects a balance between two competing interpretations of our democratic system. Canada has an historic tradition of parliamentary supremacy. This is reflected in the preamble to the Constitution Act, 1867 which expresses the desire that the Dominion have a "constitution similar in principle to that of the United Kingdom."

Prior to the Charter, the role of the courts was to give effect to the political choices made by the legislators. Subject only to issues relating to the division of powers, courts were bound by the idea that Parliament was supreme and the court's role of judicial review was limited. While the Charter raises to an unprecedented level the protection of rights and freedoms afforded to Canadians, it is acknowledged that democratic society sometimes requires the abrogation of these rights for important reasons.

Through the notwithstanding clause, Parliament or the legislature of a province may expressly declare that legislation passed by it shall operate notwithstanding the fundamental freedoms (of conscience and religion, thought and expression, assembly and association), legal rights or the equality rights guaranteed by the Charter. To invoke the notwithstanding clause, the legislature must make an express declaration that it is overriding a particular right or rights in the Charter.

There are limits to the use of the notwithstanding clause. Section 33 does not affect the guarantee of rights and freedoms in section 1, Democratic Rights (section 3-5), Mobility Rights (section 6), Official Languages of Canada (sections 16-22), and Minority Language Educational Rights (section 23).

As well, a declaration that legislation shall operate notwithstanding the Charter automatically ceases to have effect five years after its enactment. The declaration may be re-enacted, compelling the government invoking section 33 to review its use and subjecting the express infringement to renewed public scrutiny every five years.

In Canada, the debate regarding the notwithstanding clause continues. Is this provision a loophole that devalues and dilutes individual rights permitting abuses by legislators? Reference could be made to the Japanese internment during World War II, the head tax on Chinese immigrants during the early part of this century or the suspension of rights pursuant to the War Measures Act. Or, is section 33 an essential safety valve and check on the power of the judiciary in a system with a tradition of legislative supremacy?

The purpose of the override is to provide an opportunity for the responsible and accountable public discussion of rights issues, and this might be undermined if legislators are free to use the override without open discussion and deliberation of the specifics of its use. There is little room to doubt that, when defying the Supreme Court, as well as overriding a pronounced right, a legislature should consider the importance of the right involved, the objective of the stricken legislation, the availability of other, less intrusive, means of reaching the same policy objective, and a host of other issues. It should not only be the responsibility of the Courts to determine whether a limit is reasonable or demonstrably justifiable in a free and democratic society. If a legislature wishes to take issue with the Court's determination, it too should be required to consider whether the limit is one that is justifiable in a free and democratic society.

https://web.archive.org/web/20161107160251/http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/rights-and-freedoms/023021-1400-e.html (https://web.archive.org/web/20161107160251/http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/rights-and-freedoms/023021-1400-e.html)

I've always thought that the provision (as well as the S1 "subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society" provision) was a good balancing act. IMHO there were some fairly bright guys involved on both sides in working out the various compromises.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 21, 2018, 12:47:06
Ontario Liberals understated their deficits?
Hard to believe.

Quote
Wynne’s Liberals “cooked the books”, left deficit 224% larger than reported


The Progressive Conservative government announced the independent inquiry in July and tasked it with probing the Liberal regime’s accounting methods surrounding a pair of teacher pension plans and the province’s Fair Hydro Plan.

Those accounting practices led to a two-year fight with Ontario’s auditor general, who said in April that the Liberals understated their deficits by billions.




https://thenectarine.ca/politics/wynnes-liberals-cooked-the-books-left-deficit-224-larger-than-reported/
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Brad Sallows on September 21, 2018, 13:41:06
The chief role of a constitution is to set impenetrable limits on government, especially with regard to rights of the person.  A "notwithstanding" clause is a mockery.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Halifax Tar on September 21, 2018, 14:04:34
Ontario Liberals understated their deficits?
Hard to believe.
 

https://thenectarine.ca/politics/wynnes-liberals-cooked-the-books-left-deficit-224-larger-than-reported/

Thats crazy, no wait is that not criminal ?
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 22, 2018, 16:30:24
Thats crazy, no wait is that not criminal ?

Naw they just used a different way to count money. You know, so it doesn't look as bad.

They're not even trying to hide their lies anymore.

http://brianlilley.com/ontarios-liberals-admit-they-lied-for-years/
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Cloud Cover on September 24, 2018, 22:37:26
As someone eligible to vote in Toronto elections, I do not recall Doug mentioning his intent to immediately cut our council in half before our fall municipal election.

I also do not recall him threatening the use the Notwithstanding Clause ( as if anyone ever heard of it, because it has never been used in Ontario ) if he does not get his way with City Hall.

So far as I can tell, the  PCPO seemed careful to avoid having a detailed platform at all. All they needed was a person who could stand upright and had a pulse. Sort of like a crash test dummy that is alive. A highly intellectual leader would have made informed statements that for very many would be unforgettable and not forgivable. With Doug, at least those who elected him got neither a philosopher or a village idiot. They got Doug.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: FJAG on September 29, 2018, 00:26:39
Good news in Ontario

Quote
Ontario Drive Clean Program Cancelled By PC Government

This crappy piece of legislation had long ago outlived it's usefulness. The Liberals recognized that the public hated it when it decided to make the tests free. They hung on to it, however, making it a public expense to the tune of about $40 million per year. The new program will focus on the heavy truck industry where it ought to be.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/09/28/ontario-drive-clean-program-cancelled-by-pc-government_a_23545199/?utm_hp_ref=ca-homepage (https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/09/28/ontario-drive-clean-program-cancelled-by-pc-government_a_23545199/?utm_hp_ref=ca-homepage)

 :cheers:
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Fishbone Jones on September 30, 2018, 19:33:25
How do you mess with the charter when the action you take is empowered by the charter?

Intellectuals don't bother with legalities. If it fits their agenda, that's the answer. When they need to, they'll haul out the same Charter to bash you over the head with, because now it fits what they want.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 05, 2018, 04:27:17
Visited someone in the hospital not too long ago. They were getting their stomach cut open and had to spend 4-5 days in the hospital before the operation. Spent the whole time laying in a shitty hospital bed in the hall way, it was like seeing a sick animal at the zoo. Zero privacy. 

Pretty happy to read this story this morning


HEALTHFord government increases hospital funding by $90 million to address overcrowding
https://thenectarine.ca/news/ford-government-increases-hospital-funding-by-90-million-to-address-overcrowding/
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on October 05, 2018, 09:25:24
HEALTHFord government increases hospital funding by $90 million to address overcrowding
https://thenectarine.ca/news/ford-government-increases-hospital-funding-by-90-million-to-address-overcrowding/

Opinions,

QUOTE

TORONTO, Oct. 03, 2018

Doug Ford cuts hospital beds and funding – calls it an increase, says Ontario Health Coalition
https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2018/10/03/1601051/0/en/Doug-Ford-cuts-hospital-beds-and-funding-calls-it-an-increase-says-Ontario-Health-Coalition.html

END QUOTE

QUOTE

TORONTO, Oct. 3, 2018

Registered Nurses Association of Ontario ( RNAO )

Adding flu season surge capacity to hospitals will not resolve hallway health care
https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/adding-flu-season-surge-capacity-to-hospitals-will-not-resolve-hallway-health-care-695097571.html
"On a day that the government announced it would address hallway health care, its officials ordered Registered Nurses' Association of Ontario (RNAO) staff to leave the media conference, stranding President Angela Cooper Brathwaite in a hallway at Queen's Park."

"RNAO says the $90 million to add beds falls far short of the $187 million the Kathleen Wynne government promised to spend in the 2018-2019 budget year before losing power in the June provincial election."

END QUOTE
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 05, 2018, 12:11:00
I  was going to say wow those are two very different takes.  Sorry but as it were I have a little more faith that the hospitals will see the 90 million Ford is promising than the 187 million Wynne promised. 
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on October 05, 2018, 12:52:28
Nothing new about "hallway medicine". We called it "the Hall of Shame".

The official name is Off-Load Delay ( OLD ).

In Metro, OLD increased from 35 minutes in 2000 to 70 minutes by 2008. I retired in 2009.

The OLD standard is 30 minutes. With our growing and aging population, OLD will remain a challenge.

The Community Paramedicine Program provides the most appropriate patient treatment and reduces trips to the ER. This in turn helps reduce "hallway medicine". That's the theory, anyway.

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Remius on October 05, 2018, 12:58:48
I  was going to say wow those are two very different takes.  Sorry but as it were I have a little more faith that the hospitals will see the 90 million Ford is promising than the 187 million Wynne promised.

It’s 187 million the Liberals didn’t have nor was willing to find.  With Ford I think it is 90 million he’ll find.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on October 05, 2018, 15:40:23
Regarding the future of health care in Ontario, and the Ontario Conservative Party, this was written just before the election.

Have to see how it goes this time around.

QUOTE

For the last 20 years health care has been the Tories' biggest image issue, with memories still sharp of the 1990s when the Mike Harris government ordered 28 hospitals closed and fired 6,000 nurses.

Harris ignited a firestorm of protests when he suggested nurses were as obsolete as hula-hoop makers. "Just as hula hoops went out and those workers had to have a factory and a company that would manufacture something else that's in, it's the same for government," Harris said.
https://www.thespec.com/opinion-story/8628234-if-ford-wins-prepare-for-even-harder-times-in-health-care/

END QUOTE

Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 20, 2018, 12:00:01
Ontario bill aims to strip returning terrorists of provincial privileges

With a quarter of the nearly 200 Canadian members of overseas terrorist groups returning home and at least a dozen more held in Syrian detentions camps, an impending private-members bill will ensure they’re not entitled to benefits enjoyed by law-abiding Ontarians, the Sun has learned.

Set to be tabled at Queen’s Park next week, the Terrorist Activity Sanctions Act targets those who’ve carried out terrorist acts abroad and excludes them from such privileges as holding an Ontario driver’s licence or accessing provincial health coverage.



https://torontosun.com/news/provincial/ontario-bill-aims-to-strip-returning-terrorists-of-provincial-privileges?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1539995227
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: DetectiveMcNulty on October 20, 2018, 18:09:44
Thanks for sharing that Jarnhamar. I hope it goes through.

I'd also like Ontario to consider a registry for terrorists. I think communities deserve to know who they have in their midst.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on October 20, 2018, 19:21:06
Saw that on CP24.

They said, "It's not clear how the proposed Bill will work if the alleged offenders are not convicted of any crimes in court."
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: DetectiveMcNulty on October 20, 2018, 19:32:30
How it will work? They will be move in next door to you and your family. That's how it will work.

How does that make you feel?
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on October 20, 2018, 19:41:43
They will be move in next door to you and your family.

That's not what CP24 said,

QUOTE

"It's not clear how the proposed Bill will work if the alleged offenders are not convicted of any crimes in court."

END QUOTE

The proposed Bill ( Reply #255 ) is only about driver’s licence and health coverage.

Nothing in it about where people can, or can not, live.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: DetectiveMcNulty on October 20, 2018, 19:50:22
Sorry, I was speaking directly to what will happen if they aren't convicted in court. I stand behind my comment still.

I'm betting this will get squashed somehow, and they will move in next door to you with health care and driving privileges intact. They will probably get some form of stipend, and free education.

Anyone want to bet?

Anyways, good on the Ontario government for trying to do what they can. Now awaiting the outcry over human rights.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: mariomike on October 20, 2018, 23:57:58
CP24
"It's not clear how the proposed Bill will work if the alleged offenders are not convicted of any crimes in court."

Global News clarified the proposed Bill will only apply to convicted  terrorists.
https://globalnews.ca/news/4575780/ontario-bill-strip-returning-terrorist-benefits/
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 24, 2018, 15:35:40
Carbon tax is such a bullshit thing. It's just a slush fund for the Liberal government.


Quote
TORONTO — Ontario Premier Doug Ford has come out swinging against Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s plans for carbon tax rebates.

Trudeau announced details of the plan Tuesday, saying provinces that have not implemented their own carbon taxation system will have one imposed on them by the federal government.


https://thenectarine.ca/business/doug-ford-slams-trudeau-and-federal-carbon-tax-plan/


Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Jarnhamar on November 15, 2018, 14:57:49
Seems like a better plan than raising minimum wage.


Quote
The Ford government is introducing a new tax credit that will exempt minimum wage earners from provincial exempt tax and says its cost-cutting measures have reduced the 2018 deficit to $14.5 billion.

Finance Minister Vic Fideli's first fall economic statement tabled Thursday afternoon also includes new expanded hours for booze sales in Ontario and a new loophole exempting all new rental housing from rent controls starting tomorrow.

Advertisement

The signature move in the document is a new Low-income Families and Individuals Credit that will save a minimum wage earner up to $850 per year and minimum wage-earning families up to $1,700 per year.

This is still less than low-wage workers would have taken home if the Ford government continued with a planned increase in the minimum wage from $14 to $15 per hour, which was set to take effect in January before it was cancelled.



https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ford-gov-t-says-deficit-reduced-to-14-5b-with-new-suite-of-cost-cutting-measures-1.4178057?fbclid=IwAR2F1m9j4TGQXO8Duo2BNXGiOVN4kBGLHu1F42Wtk31TFxUUBTFwGJ6uoWs
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Fishbone Jones on November 15, 2018, 15:32:11
Seems like a better plan than raising minimum wage.

 

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ford-gov-t-says-deficit-reduced-to-14-5b-with-new-suite-of-cost-cutting-measures-1.4178057?fbclid=IwAR2F1m9j4TGQXO8Duo2BNXGiOVN4kBGLHu1F42Wtk31TFxUUBTFwGJ6uoWs

If they went to the $15/ hr, their taxes would go up and they'd likely see less money in their pocket.

The liberals didn't do this to help the poor, they did it to collect more taxes.

Ford's decision cuts through the bullshit and leaves the money with the taxpayer.

There's going to be a lot of tough decisions as the Conservatives try to dig out Ontario from under the liberal debt. Lot's of people aren't going to like the belt tightening. I'd rather bite the bullet and tackle the problems now though, than kick the can down the road until the socialists take over again to add to what they've already done.

Funny I don't hear anyone that works for a living and pays taxes to support all those that won't, complaining about the plans.
Title: Re: New Ontario Government 2018
Post by: Loachman on November 15, 2018, 16:26:37
The liberals didn't do this to help the poor, they did it to collect more taxes votes.

You display more kindness than they deserve ...