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The Parade Square => The Canadian Military => Topic started by: Eagle Eye View on September 25, 2018, 17:34:24

Title: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Eagle Eye View on September 25, 2018, 17:34:24
The official CANFORGEN is out on DWAN
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: MJP on September 25, 2018, 17:35:51
Shamelessly stolen from Reddit

R 251819Z SEP 18

FM NDHQ CMP OTTAWA

TO CANFORGEN

BT

UNCLAS

SECTION 1 OF 2

CANFORGEN 158/18 CMP 078/18

SIC WAC

BILINGUAL MESSAGE/MESSAGE BILINGUE

SUBJ: AMENDMENT TO BEARD POLICY

REFS:A.QR AND O 17.02

B. QR AND O 17.03

C. A-DH-265-000/AG-001 CHAPTER 2

1.PERSONAL DRESS AND APPEARANCE OF MILITARY MEMBERS REFLECT ON THE

PROFESSIONALISM AND CREDIBILITY OF THE CANADIAN ARMED FORCES (CAF).

IN ACCORDANCE WITH QUEEN S REGULATIONS AND ORDERS

(QRO) 17.03 (REF B), THE WEARING OF A BEARD IS SUBJECT TO

RESTRICTIONS AS ORDERED BY THE CHIEF OF THE DEFENCE STAFF

2.CONSULTATIONS WERE HELD WITH CAF MEMBERS BY THE NATIONAL





PAGE 2 RCCPJAQ1040 UNCLAS

DEFENCE CLOTHING AND DRESS COMMITTEE (NDCDC) WHICH REVEALED CONCERNS

REGARDING THE EXISTING BEARD POLICY. IT BECAME APPARENT THAT THE

EXISTING POLICY IS BROADER THAN REQUIRED TO MAINTAIN OPERATIONAL

EFFECTIVENESS. CHANGES TO THE BEARD POLICY IN THIS

CANFORGEN CONTINUE TO RECOGNIZE BOTH THE NEED TO ENSURE FORCE

PROTECTION AND COMFORT TO MILITARY MEMBERS OVER A WIDE RANGE OF

OPERATIONAL AND CLIMATIC CONDITIONS WHILE ALSO SUPPORTING THE

COMPLETE SPECTRUM OF ACTIVITY FROM CEREMONIAL DUTIES TO COMBAT

OPERATIONS, WHILE ALLOWING CAF MEMBERS INCREASED FREEDOM TO MAKE

PERSONAL CHOICES REGARDING THEIR APPEARANCE

3.EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE WEARING OF A BEARD IS AUTHORIZED FOR

ALL CAF MEMBERS UPON ATTAINMENT OF THEIR OPERATIONALLY FUNCTIONAL

POINT (OFP) OR HAVING COMPLETED DEVELOPMENTAL PERIOD ONE, WHICHEVER

COMES LAST. HOWEVER, COMMANDERS OF COMMANDS, TASK FORCE COMMANDERS

AND COMMANDING OFFICERS RETAIN THE RIGHT TO ORDER RESTRICTIONS ON

THE WEARING OF A BEARD TO MEET SAFETY AND OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS.

THIS INCLUDES RESTRICTIONS PERTAINING TO OPERATIONS AND TRAINING

WHERE, IN A CHEMICAL BIOLOGICAL RADIOLOGICAL NUCLEAR (CBRN)

ENVIRONMENT OR CBRN TRAINING ENVIRONMENT, A BEARD CAN BE ORDERED TO

BE REMOVED TO ENSURE FORCE PROTECTION ON OPERATIONS OR TRAINING.





PAGE 3 RCCPJAQ1040 UNCLAS

SUCH RESTRICTIONS WILL BE AS TEMPORARY AS FEASIBLE (E.G. AS LONG AS

THE ENTIRE DURATION OF AN OPERATIONAL TOUR IN A CBRN ENVIRONMENT OR

AS SHORT AS A SINGLE TRAINING DAY FOR CBRN OPERATIONS). WHERE

CURRENT CAF EQUIPMENT CAPABILITIES CANNOT ENSURE FORCE PROTECTION OR

THE ABILITY TO EFFECTIVELY EMPLOY SAFETY SYSTEMS WHILE WEARING A

BEARD, BEARD RESTRICTIONS FOR MEMBERS USING THAT EQUIPMENT FOR

OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY REASONS MAY BE PUT IN PLACE BY A COMMANDING

OFFICER

4.WHERE THE WEARING OF A BEARD IS AUTHORIZED:

A. IT SHALL BE WORN WITH A MOUSTACHE,

B. IT SHALL BE NEATLY TRIMMED, ESPECIALLY ON THE LOWER NECK AND

CHEEKBONES,

C. IT SHALL NOT EXCEED TWO CENTIMETERS IN BULK. A MEMBER WILL, ON

THEIR OWN ACCORD OR UPON DIRECTION FROM THEIR COMMANDING OFFICER OR

THEIR CO S DESIGNATE, SHAVE OFF UNSUCCESSFUL ATTEMPTS TO GROW A

BEARD.

5.THE DIRECTION PERTAINING TO THE TRIMMING OF A BEARD AT PARA 5

ABOVE DOES NOT APPLY TO CAF MEMBERS WHO ARE EXEMPT, FOR MEDICAL

REASONS, FROM SHAVING THE LOWER NECK OR CHEECKBONES

6.THIS CANFORGEN DOES NOT, IN ANY WAY, MODIFY THE RELIGIOUS AND





PAGE 4 RCCPJAQ1040 UNCLAS

SPIRITUAL ACCOMODATIONS DESCRIBED IN SECTION 3 OF REF C

7.THE INTENT OF THIS UPDATE TO THE POLICY IS TO ENSURE THE CAF

MAINTAIN OPERATIONAL CAPABILITIES, WHILE STRENGHENING ORGANIZATIONAL

MORALE AND TEAM COHESION

8.AN UPDATED REF C WILL BE PUBLISHED AT r/HTTP://CMP-CPM.MIL.CA/ASSETS/CMP_INTRANET/DOCS/EN/PUBLICATIONS/CH2-POLICY-AND-APPEARANCE.PDF

END OF ENGLISH TEXT / LE TEXTE FRANCAIS SUIT
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: CanadianTire on September 25, 2018, 19:22:30
Ah, it is what it is. Some people won't trust social medial regardless of if it's an official account. I have seen official CF accounts be hacked before, so it's not like Kratz is completely unjustified. -300 might be a little extreme, especially given the CANFORGEN came out not long after I posted but whatever...they're just milpoints. I'm not using them for anything.

Hahaha I can't belive Kratz gave you negative milpoints for posting the CDS's message.  Not official blah blah blah, must wait for the poorly formatted ALL CAPS message or you're an idiot for believing the top soldier in the CAF might know what he is talking about.  Just imagine a world where the top leaders use relevant social media connect with and inform their soldiers of relevant topics instead of waiting for some slow *** 1970s distribution and message system.  What's next?  The loss of the cavalry charge?  Oh pls tell me it isn't so.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Brihard on September 25, 2018, 20:56:43
So is anyone in a position to confirm that what is posted here and on Reddit in fact matches what went out on DWAN?
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Larry Strong on September 25, 2018, 21:00:08
R 251819Z SEP 18
FM NDHQ CMP OTTAWA
TO CANFORGEN
BT
UNCLAS
SECTION 1 OF 2
CANFORGEN 158/18 CMP 078/18
SIC WAC
BILINGUAL MESSAGE/MESSAGE BILINGUE
SUBJ: AMENDMENT TO BEARD POLICY
REFS:A.QR AND O 17.02
B. QR AND O 17.03
C. A-DH-265-000/AG-001 CHAPTER 2
1.PERSONAL DRESS AND APPEARANCE OF MILITARY MEMBERS REFLECT ON THE
PROFESSIONALISM AND CREDIBILITY OF THE CANADIAN ARMED FORCES (CAF).
IN ACCORDANCE WITH QUEEN S REGULATIONS AND ORDERS
(QRO) 17.03 (REF B), THE WEARING OF A BEARD IS SUBJECT TO
RESTRICTIONS AS ORDERED BY THE CHIEF OF THE DEFENCE STAFF
2.CONSULTATIONS WERE HELD WITH CAF MEMBERS BY THE NATIONAL


PAGE 2 RCCPJAQ1040 UNCLAS
DEFENCE CLOTHING AND DRESS COMMITTEE (NDCDC) WHICH REVEALED CONCERNS
REGARDING THE EXISTING BEARD POLICY. IT BECAME APPARENT THAT THE
EXISTING POLICY IS BROADER THAN REQUIRED TO MAINTAIN OPERATIONAL
EFFECTIVENESS. CHANGES TO THE BEARD POLICY IN THIS
CANFORGEN CONTINUE TO RECOGNIZE BOTH THE NEED TO ENSURE FORCE
PROTECTION AND COMFORT TO MILITARY MEMBERS OVER A WIDE RANGE OF
OPERATIONAL AND CLIMATIC CONDITIONS WHILE ALSO SUPPORTING THE
COMPLETE SPECTRUM OF ACTIVITY FROM CEREMONIAL DUTIES TO COMBAT
OPERATIONS, WHILE ALLOWING CAF MEMBERS INCREASED FREEDOM TO MAKE
PERSONAL CHOICES REGARDING THEIR APPEARANCE
3.EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE WEARING OF A BEARD IS AUTHORIZED FOR
ALL CAF MEMBERS UPON ATTAINMENT OF THEIR OPERATIONALLY FUNCTIONAL
POINT (OFP) OR HAVING COMPLETED DEVELOPMENTAL PERIOD ONE, WHICHEVER
COMES LAST. HOWEVER, COMMANDERS OF COMMANDS, TASK FORCE COMMANDERS
AND COMMANDING OFFICERS RETAIN THE RIGHT TO ORDER RESTRICTIONS ON
THE WEARING OF A BEARD TO MEET SAFETY AND OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS.
THIS INCLUDES RESTRICTIONS PERTAINING TO OPERATIONS AND TRAINING
WHERE, IN A CHEMICAL BIOLOGICAL RADIOLOGICAL NUCLEAR (CBRN)
ENVIRONMENT OR CBRN TRAINING ENVIRONMENT, A BEARD CAN BE ORDERED TO
BE REMOVED TO ENSURE FORCE PROTECTION ON OPERATIONS OR TRAINING.


PAGE 3 RCCPJAQ1040 UNCLAS
SUCH RESTRICTIONS WILL BE AS TEMPORARY AS FEASIBLE (E.G. AS LONG AS
THE ENTIRE DURATION OF AN OPERATIONAL TOUR IN A CBRN ENVIRONMENT OR
AS SHORT AS A SINGLE TRAINING DAY FOR CBRN OPERATIONS). WHERE
CURRENT CAF EQUIPMENT CAPABILITIES CANNOT ENSURE FORCE PROTECTION OR
THE ABILITY TO EFFECTIVELY EMPLOY SAFETY SYSTEMS WHILE WEARING A
BEARD, BEARD RESTRICTIONS FOR MEMBERS USING THAT EQUIPMENT FOR
OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY REASONS MAY BE PUT IN PLACE BY A COMMANDING
OFFICER
4.WHERE THE WEARING OF A BEARD IS AUTHORIZED:
A. IT SHALL BE WORN WITH A MOUSTACHE,
B. IT SHALL BE NEATLY TRIMMED, ESPECIALLY ON THE LOWER NECK AND
CHEEKBONES,
C. IT SHALL NOT EXCEED TWO CENTIMETERS IN BULK. A MEMBER WILL, ON
THEIR OWN ACCORD OR UPON DIRECTION FROM THEIR COMMANDING OFFICER OR
THEIR CO S DESIGNATE, SHAVE OFF UNSUCCESSFUL ATTEMPTS TO GROW A
BEARD.
5.THE DIRECTION PERTAINING TO THE TRIMMING OF A BEARD AT PARA 5
ABOVE DOES NOT APPLY TO CAF MEMBERS WHO ARE EXEMPT, FOR MEDICAL
REASONS, FROM SHAVING THE LOWER NECK OR CHEECKBONES
6.THIS CANFORGEN DOES NOT, IN ANY WAY, MODIFY THE RELIGIOUS AND


PAGE 4 RCCPJAQ1040 UNCLAS
SPIRITUAL ACCOMODATIONS DESCRIBED IN SECTION 3 OF REF C
7.THE INTENT OF THIS UPDATE TO THE POLICY IS TO ENSURE THE CAF
MAINTAIN OPERATIONAL CAPABILITIES, WHILE STRENGHENING ORGANIZATIONAL
MORALE AND TEAM COHESION
8.AN UPDATED REF C WILL BE PUBLISHED AT r/HTTP://CMP-CPM.MIL.CA/…/PUBLI…/CH2-POLICY-AND-APPEARANCE.PDF
END OF ENGLISH TEXT / LE TEXTE FRANCAIS SUIT
OBJ: CHANGEMENT DE POLITIQUE - PORT DE LA BARBE
REF. A.ORFC 17.02
B. ORFC 17.03
C. A-DH-265-000/AG-001 CHAPITRE 2

LA TENUE ET L APPARENCE INDIVIDUELLE DES MILITAIRES REFLETENT SUR

LE PROFESSIONNALISME ET LA CREDIBILITE DES FORCES ARMEES CANADIENNES
(FAC). CONFORMEMENT AUX ORDONNANCES ET REGLEMENTS ROYAUX APPLICABLES
AUX FORCES CANADIENNES (ORFC) 17.03 A LA REF B, LE PORT DE LA BARBE
EST ASSUJETTI AUX RESTRICTIONS PRESCRITES TEL QU ORDONNE PAR LE CHEF
D ETAT-MAJOR DE LA DEFENSE

LE COMITE SUR LA TENUE VESTIMENTAIRE DES FORCES CANADIENNES

(CTVFC) A TENU DES CONSULTATIONS AVEC DES MEMBRES DES FAC. DES


PAGE 5 RCCPJAQ1040 UNCLAS
PREOCCUPATIONS CONCERNANT LA POLITIQUE ACTUELLE SUR LE PORT DE LA
BARBE ONT ETE IDENTIFIEES. IL A ETE PERMIS DE CONSTATER QUE LA
POLITIQUE ACTUELLE A UNE APPLICATION PLUS GENERALE QUE REQUISE POUR
MAINTENIR L EFFICACITE OPERATIONNELLE. LES CHANGEMENTS A LA
POLITIQUE SUR LE PORT DE LA BARBE CONTENUS DANS CE CANFORGEN
RECONNAISSENT LA NECESSITE D ASSURER LA PROTECTION DE LA FORCE ET LE
CONFORT DES MILITAIRES DANS DES CONDITIONS OPERATIONNELLES ET
CLIMATIQUES VARIEES EN SUPPORTANT TOUS LES CHAMPS D ACTVITES
MILITAIRES, DU DEVOIR RATTACHE AUX CEREMONIES MILITAIRES AUX
OPERATIONS DE COMBAT, TOUT EN PERMETTANT AUX MEMBRES DES FAC D AVOIR
UNE PLUS GRANDE LIBERTE DE CHOIX PERSONNELS CONCERNANT LEUR
APPARENCE
3.EN VIGUEUR IMMEDIATEMENT, LE PORT DE LA BARBE EST AUTORISE POUR
TOUS LES MEMBRES DES FAC, UNE FOIS QU ILS ONT COMPLETE LE NIVEAU
OPERATIONNEL DE COMPETENCE OU LA PERIODE DE PERFECTIONNEMENT UN (LA
PLUS LONGUE PERIODE DES DEUX SERA APPLIQUEE). LES COMMANDANTS DE
COMMANDEMENT, LES COMMANDANTS DE FORCE OPERATIONNELLE ET LES
COMMANDANTS CONSERVENT LE DROIT D IMPOSER DES RESTRICTIONS SUR LE
PORT DE LA BARBE AFIN DE REPONDRE AUX BESOINS OPERATIONNELS ET AUX
BESOINS EN MATIERE DE SECURITE. CELA INCLUT LES RESTRICTIONS


PAGE 6 RCCPJAQ1040 UNCLAS
RELATIVES AUX OPERATIONS ET A L ENTRAINEMENT. DANS UN ENVIRONNEMENT
CHIMIQUE BIOLOGIQUE RADIOLOGIQUE NUCLEAIRE (CBRN) OU DANS UN
ENVIRONNEMENT D ENTRAINEMENT CBRN, LE PORT DE LA BARBE PEUT ETRE
INTERDIT AFIN D ASSURER LA PROTECTION DE LA FORCE DURANT LES
OPERATIONS OU ENTRAINEMENTS. DE TELLES RESTRICTIONS SERONT AUSSI
TEMPORAIRES QUE POSSIBLE (PAR EXEMPLE, PENDANT LA DUREE ENTIERE D UN
TOUR OPERATIONNEL DANS UN ENVIRONNEMENT CBRN OU DURANT UNE JOURNEE D
ENTRAINEMENT AUX OPERATIONS CBRN). LORSQUE LES CAPACITES ACTUELLES
DE L EQUIPEMENT DES FAC NE PEUVENT ASSURER LA PROTECTION DE LA FORCE
OU LA CAPACITE D EMPLOYER EFFICACEMENT DES SYSTEMES DE SECURITE
QUAND LA BARBE EST PORTEE, UNE RESTRICTION SUR LE PORT DE LA BARBE
POUR LES MEMBRES UTILISANT CET EQUIPEMENT POUR RAISONS
OPERATIONNELLES OU DE SECURITE PEUT ETRE MISE EN PLACE PAR UN
COMMANDANT

LORSQUE LE PORT DE LA BARBE EST AUTORISE:

A.ELLE DOIT ETRE PORTEE AVEC UNE MOUSTACHE,
B.ELLE DOIT ETRE SOIGNEUSEMENT TAILLEE, EN PARTICULIER A LA BASE DU
COU ET AUX POMMETTES,
C.ELLE NE DOIT PAS EXCEDER DEUX CENTIMETRES D EPAISSEUR.
UN MEMBRE DEVRA, DE SON PROPRE CHEF OU SUR ORDRE DE SON COMMANDANT
BT
#1040

R 251819Z SEP 18
FM NDHQ CMP OTTAWA
TO CANFORGEN
BT
UNCLAS
FINAL SECTION OF 2
OU D UNE PERSONNE DESIGNEE PAR SON COMMANDANT, RASER TOUTES
TENTATIVES INFRUCTUEUSES DE FAIRE POUSSER UNE BARBE
5.LES DIRECTIVES CONCERNANT LE TAILLAGE DE LA BARBE AU PARAGRAPHE 5
NE SONT PAS APPLICABLES AUX MEMBRES DES FAC QUI SONT DISPENSES DE SE
RASER A LA BASE DU COU ET AUX POMMETTES POUR DES RAISONS MEDICALES
6.CE CANFORGEN NE MODIFIE EN AUCUN CAS LES ACCOMMODEMENTS RELIGIEUX
ET SPIRITUELS DECRITS A LA SECTION 3 DE LA REF C
7.L INTENTION DE CETTE MODIFICATION A LA POLITIQUE EST DE S ASSURER
QUE LES FAC MAINTIENNENT LEURS CAPACITES OPERATIONNELLES, TOUT EN
RENFORCANT LE MORAL ORGANISATIONNEL ET LA COHESION DE L EQUIPE
8.UNE VERSION A JOUR DE LA REF C SERA PUBLIEE AU HTTP://CMP-CPM.MIL.CA/…/PUBL…/CH2-POLITIQUE-ET-APPARENCE.PDF
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: MJP on September 25, 2018, 21:01:02
So is anyone in a position to confirm that what is posted here and on Reddit in fact matches what went out on DWAN?

Looks exactly like the message center version I received from our CR
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Haggis on September 25, 2018, 21:08:55
CFG 158/18 isn't yet up on the Defence Team Intranet.  It's not official until it's posted on Facebook.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: MJP on September 25, 2018, 21:18:45

It's not official until it's posted on a dependa's Facebook saying "yea for her DH".   :D

FTFY
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: garb811 on September 25, 2018, 22:16:57
So I guess all those memos asking for permission to grow a beard weren't needed after all. 

I'm sure that isn't going to stop some chains of command continuing to insist on them though.   :not-again:
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Old EO Tech on September 25, 2018, 22:50:29
Looks exactly like the message center version I received from our CR

It is out on the CR message centre, I seen the copy from the 3CDSG Sigs CR, I'll take that over a intranet page any day.  Happy beard day!
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: MJP on September 25, 2018, 22:58:19
It is out on the CR message centre, I seen the copy from the 3CDSG Sigs CR, I'll take that over a intranet page any day.  Happy beard day!
Now all we need is certain HQs to over think it like they did BOOTFORGEN
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Old EO Tech on September 25, 2018, 23:05:06
Now all we need is certain HQs to over think it like they did BOOTFORGEN

Hopefully not, the message already gives CO's the authority to order members to shave of "unsuccessful attempts".  That statement should be suitably broad to even make certain CoC happy :-/
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 26, 2018, 00:35:54
It's not official until it's posted on Facebook.

Said no military that ever won a real 'shootin' - bombin' - loot your capital city - war', ever ;)
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Poppa on September 26, 2018, 03:55:03
The thing is...all of these troops that went and got a med chit; the med condition is still there. Their face didn't get better because of a CANFORGEN. So either their face heals miraculously and they get off their P-CAT which leads me to question the severity of the problem in the first place and the ethics of all parties involved. Or, they don't come off category and now we have a bunch of soldiers who have luscious beards but can't deploy etc....
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Technoviking on September 26, 2018, 07:26:55
The thing is...all of these troops that went and got a med chit; the med condition is still there. Their face didn't get better because of a CANFORGEN. So either their face heals miraculously and they get off their P-CAT which leads me to question the severity of the problem in the first place and the ethics of all parties involved. Or, they don't come off category and now we have a bunch of soldiers who have luscious beards but can't deploy etc....

I personally believe that the conditions exist (largely, not solely) due to people not knowing how to shave.  Commercial razors are crap, people don't know how to condition their skin and they do crazy things like shave against the grain!

Get a brush and dish of shaving soap, some pre-shave oil, a safety razor (single blade, just like great grandfather had) and some HOT water.
1.  Shower.  Ensure face is well-scrubbed.
2.  Apply HOT water to  your face.  Hot towel would be better.
3.  Apply pre-shave oil to face.
4.  Lather up that shave brush and apply HOT foam to face. Really massage that skin and have that foam nice and thick.
5.  Shave WITH the grain.
6.  Rinse off with COLD water.
7.  Apply HOT water to face.
8.  Apply pre-shave oil to face.
9.  Lather up that shave brush and apply HOT foam to face. Really massage that skin and have that foam nice and thick.
10.  Shave AGAINST the grain.
11.  Rinse off with COLD water.
12.  Apply post shave balm.

For about 4 years now I've been doing this every day and I still marvel at how smooth the shave is.  I rarely nick myself and I no longer have any unseemly "bumps" or rashes from shaving.

Oh, the blades are dirt cheap.  I use a brand called ASTRA and I change blades every week.  I got 300 blades for under 20 dollars on Amazon.

Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Remius on September 26, 2018, 07:53:09

6 months from now...

In other breaking news: in light of the new CAF beard policy the CANSOF dress comitee has voted unanimously to ban beards.  Thousands of reservists immediately shave.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: PMedMoe on September 26, 2018, 08:32:58
The thing is...all of these troops that went and got a med chit; the med condition is still there. Their face didn't get better because of a CANFORGEN. So either their face heals miraculously and they get off their P-CAT which leads me to question the severity of the problem in the first place and the ethics of all parties involved. Or, they don't come off category and now we have a bunch of soldiers who have luscious beards but can't deploy etc....
 

I don't think I ever heard of anyone with a "no shave" chit being on a PCat or not deploying...  :dunno:
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Haggis on September 26, 2018, 08:35:56
6 months from now...

In other breaking news: in light of the new CAF beard policy the CANSOF dress comitee has voted unanimously to ban beards.  Thousands of reservists immediately shave.

So, you just had to push this thread towards the drain but starting that crap?  There would be more than just Reservists shaving.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Remius on September 26, 2018, 10:39:00
So, you just had to push this thread towards the drain but starting that crap?  There would be more than just Reservists shaving.

Sorry, was just trying to be humorous.  It was self inflicted humour, based on my own experience as a reservist. 

My apologies if it ruffled any feathers or hackles.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Haggis on September 26, 2018, 10:41:57
My apologies if it ruffled any feathers or hackles.

 ::)  There you go again!!!!   ;D
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Remius on September 26, 2018, 10:44:46
::)  There you go again!!!!   ;D

That was my attempt at being inclusive  ;)

Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 26, 2018, 11:20:51
6 months from now...

In other breaking news: in light of the new CAF beard policy the CANSOF dress comitee has voted unanimously to ban beards.  Thousands of reservists immediately shave.

For the win!  :rofl:
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Tcm621 on September 26, 2018, 11:46:54
 

I don't think I ever heard of anyone with a "no shave" chit being on a PCat or not deploying...  :dunno:

A no shave chit would be permanent MELS and could affect deployments depending on the risk factors but I agree that it shouldn't be a big issue. I haven't run it to anyone who has been refused a deployment because of his no shave chit.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: garb811 on September 26, 2018, 18:07:59
I have yet to see a beard chit that banned shaving under all circumstances, there has always been a caveat allowing the member being ordered to shave for valid operational reasons otherwise they would be high risk instead of low risk.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Target Up on September 26, 2018, 19:49:10
Thank God! After all these years the troops can grow facial hair. Yuge win! Now they can move on to all the trivial crap, like boots, mukluks, sleeping bags, etc. Y'know, the nice to haves, but nothing on the scale of a flourishing face full of pubic hair.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: cld617 on September 26, 2018, 23:55:38
Hopefully not, the message already gives CO's the authority to order members to shave of "unsuccessful attempts".  That statement should be suitably broad to even make certain CoC happy :-/

Yet several locations have already told their people to wait out, continue shaving until further direction can be given on how they'll enforce this policy.

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Old EO Tech on September 27, 2018, 01:45:48
Yet several locations have already told their people to wait out, continue shaving until further direction can be given on how they'll enforce this policy.

 :facepalm:

Yes that is pretty dumb, what is there to clarify.  Well I can say at least the Comd 3 Div sent out an email today saying there will be no further direction on this, the CANFORGEN is clear and gives CO's sufficient authority.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Navy_Pete on September 27, 2018, 19:40:34
Yes that is pretty dumb, what is there to clarify.  Well I can say at least the Comd 3 Div sent out an email today saying there will be no further direction on this, the CANFORGEN is clear and gives CO's sufficient authority.

To be fair the policy came with no warning, so there was no time to prepare specific direction at the unit level...  :facepalm::dunno:
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Old EO Tech on September 27, 2018, 19:44:55
To be fair the policy came with no warning, so there was no time to prepare specific direction at the unit level...  :facepalm::dunno:

That is not the case were I am, everyone knew this was coming, to the point that the Comd 1CMBG authorized beards two weeks ago ahead of the CFG, and then repelled that action after consulting with his boss :-/   But it was well known across the CA from speaking with my peers.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: PuckChaser on September 27, 2018, 19:45:55
To be fair the policy came with no warning, so there was no time to prepare specific direction at the unit level...  :facepalm::dunno:

Has your unit been living with their head in the sand? This has been rumoured for months.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 27, 2018, 19:53:07
I think that Sgt Gervais has done an excellent job of modeling the correct way to wear a beard in DEU :)

Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Navy_Pete on September 27, 2018, 20:20:39
Has your unit been living with their head in the sand? This has been rumoured for months.

....sorry, forgot the /sarcasm bit.

This has been far more than just RUMINT for months, and pretty sure the actual details were kicked around the dress committee and chief network since the start of the summer, so someone claiming now that it needs time for a unit policy is a micromanaging tool.  At most, would have expected ships (or other units with existing shaving requirements) to simply remind folks those policies still apply ahead of time, knowing this was coming down the pipes. 
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: PuckChaser on September 27, 2018, 20:37:03
Tracking now.

Absolutely. The L1s knew about this months ago, and a few weeks ago the Armed Forces Council was dominated by J1 issues, instead of J3 issues.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: sidemount on September 27, 2018, 20:49:18
So if someone OTs, does that mean they have to shave off their beard since they are not OFP in their new trade?
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: PuckChaser on September 27, 2018, 20:55:04
So if someone OTs, does that mean they have to shave off their beard since they are not OFP in their new trade?

Seems so. Their OFP is now that of the new trade, not their old one.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: sidemount on September 27, 2018, 21:10:29
Seems so. Their OFP is now that of the new trade, not their old one.
That's what I was going with but I have been asked the question a few times today.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: dapaterson on September 27, 2018, 22:42:30
Absolutely. The L1s knew about this months ago, and a few weeks ago the Armed Forces Council was dominated by J1 issues, instead of J3 issues.

AFC deals more with the '1 side than you'd think - in fact, I'd be hard-pressed to find much of a '3 flavour to its deliberations.

AFC exists to advise the CDS on advice with regards to issues related to the administration, management and employment of the CAF, including Force Development, Force Generation and Force Employment, as well as Force Posture and Readiness.

Most of those issues have a very heavy '1 slant; capability discussions are at Defence Capability Board; resources are at Programme Management Board and the Integrated Resource Management Committee; and '3 discussions would generally occur at the CDS Ops meeting.

(Just don't get confused about whether you're attending DAC, CFDAC or CAFDAC, three similar sounding meetings with three very different mandates: Audit, Decorations and Discipline, respectively...)
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: ballz on September 28, 2018, 00:17:42
That's what I was going with but I have been asked the question a few times today.

I'm curious to see a black and white definition of what "DP1" is in policy?
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Old EO Tech on September 28, 2018, 01:26:01
I'm curious to see a black and white definition of what "DP1" is in policy?

Well OFP is well defined by MPC for each MOSID, so that should not be in question, though the question about what happens if you change trades is something that needs clarification.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: ballz on September 28, 2018, 01:35:17
Well OFP is well defined by MPC for each MOSID, so that should not be in question, though the question about what happens if you change trades is something that needs clarification.

That's right, but it says "UPON ATTAINMENT OF THEIR OPERATIONALLY FUNCTIONAL POINT (OFP) OR HAVING COMPLETED DEVELOPMENTAL PERIOD ONE, WHICHEVER COMES LAST" so what is "development period one?"

I have seen it referred to in a variety of ways and often, in career manager briefings, more so along a spectrum than with a hard and fast point where one goes from DP1 to DP2.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Old EO Tech on September 28, 2018, 01:37:50
That's right, but it says "UPON ATTAINMENT OF THEIR OPERATIONALLY FUNCTIONAL POINT (OFP) OR HAVING COMPLETED DEVELOPMENTAL PERIOD ONE, WHICHEVER COMES LAST" so what is "development period one?"

I have seen it referred to in a variety of ways and often, in career manager briefings, more so along a spectrum than with a hard and fast point where one goes from DP1 to DP2.

Well I would say logically....that you are in DP1 until the day you qualify DP2, which for most trades is a formal course..  But yes I can see room for interpretation, is this meant to say the end of DP1.0 or the entire DP1 period?
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: SupersonicMax on September 28, 2018, 03:38:44
The way I read it is if you attained DP1/OFP once, you can wear a beard therefore OT would be allowed to wear it.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 28, 2018, 05:03:07
Maintaining a 2cm length seems more of a pain in the *** than shaving every day.   Seems like picking a random religion (like one of my soldiers did) is the way to go for a fluffy face.


And unless soldiers are deployed with readily access to full cbrn protective equipment AND medical counter measures (not just a gas mask and a PowerPoint brief ) the OMG CBRN THREAT argument against beards is silly.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: LunchMeat on September 28, 2018, 10:04:03
Maintaining a 2cm length seems more of a pain in the *** than shaving every day.   Seems like picking a random religion (like one of my soldiers did) is the way to go for a fluffy face.


And unless soldiers are deployed with readily access to full cbrn protective equipment AND medical counter measures (not just a gas mask and a PowerPoint brief ) the OMG CBRN THREAT argument against beards is silly.

The 2cm in bulk thing is a little silly, but I think it's just because they don't want everyone looking like Viking-faced, Spartan helmet tattoo wearing, Pipehitters Union hat sporting, Delta Force wannabes.

But, it's easily manageable.

Agreed on the CBRN comment though. Did a couple tours where CBRN kit and training was required, but your supporting UMS didn't have the countermeasures  ::)

That said, even dudes with huge beards (think Sikhs) have told me that they Vaseline the crap out of their beard and they get a perfect seal with the mask on.

Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: dangerboy on September 28, 2018, 10:14:31

That said, even dudes with huge beards (think Sikhs) have told me that they Vaseline the crap out of their beard and they get a perfect seal with the mask on.

They probably get a good enough seal for the gas hut where the particles are fairly big, there are a lot of nasty agents out there that are a lot smaller particle size than CS gas. Just something to consider.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: NFLD Sapper on September 28, 2018, 11:59:52
That's right, but it says "UPON ATTAINMENT OF THEIR OPERATIONALLY FUNCTIONAL POINT (OFP) OR HAVING COMPLETED DEVELOPMENTAL PERIOD ONE, WHICHEVER COMES LAST" so what is "development period one?"

I have seen it referred to in a variety of ways and often, in career manager briefings, more so along a spectrum than with a hard and fast point where one goes from DP1 to DP2.


 Programmes and Qualifications - Non-Commissioned Members (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/training-prof-dev/non-commissioned-members.page)  and  Programmes and qualifications - Officers (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/training-prof-dev/officer.page) may give some guidance.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: mariomike on September 28, 2018, 14:19:13
< snip > Vaseline the crap out of their beard and they get a perfect seal with the mask on.

< snip > there are a lot of nasty agents out there that are a lot smaller particle size than CS gas.

For the N95, men must be clean-shaven where the respirator seals to the face.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: dangerboy on September 28, 2018, 15:08:52
For the N95, men must be clean-shaven where the respirator seals to the face.

What is a N95? I have never heard of it, who in the CAF uses it?
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: mariomike on September 28, 2018, 15:26:37
What is a N95?

"N" means Not resistant to oil. 

95 is the percentage of particles 0.3 μm or larger in diameter that the respirator is certified to block.

, who in the CAF uses it?

I'm a former MSE Op. We were not issued it. Perhaps some other trades are?
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=621&ei=AXSuW9igD-XjjwTJ9Z-IBw&q=%22canadian+forces%22+%22N95%22&oq=%22canadian+forces%22+%22N95%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...33847.37703.0.38980.2.2.0.0.0.0.474.599.0j1j4-1.2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.124...33i160k1.0.zTXaQegScUE

eg:

QUOTE

Royal Canadian Air Force
A-GA-135-001/AA-001 Chapter 8 Post-Occurrence Activities
Annex A – Personal Protective Equipment
1. The following PPE shall be available:
e. Disposable Industrial Dust Mask (referred to as N95 mask). When this light, comfortable industrial dust mask is properly fitted to the face it allows very little unfiltered air to be inhaled. It provides adequate protection from particulate hazards such as composite fibres, lead oxide dust, depleted uranium dust and asbestos. The N95 mask requires a formal biennial fitting which can be arranged through Base Fire Halls or their equivalents. Instructions on use will be provided at the time of fitment.
http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/flight-safety/article-template-flight-safety.page?doc=a-ga-135-001-aa-001-chapter-8-post-occurrence-activities/hnfpma84#AnnexA

END QUOTE






Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: PMedMoe on September 28, 2018, 16:34:05
What is a N95? I have never heard of it, who in the CAF uses it?

I'd say PMed Techs for the most part.  Maybe WFE Techs too?
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: tomahawk6 on September 28, 2018, 17:04:43
US Stars and Stripes article.

https://www.stripes.com/news/canada-hopes-beards-will-boost-morale-draw-diverse-military-recruits-1.549502


To the envy of some U.S. troops, members of Canada’s military can now all wear beards, provided they can do better than peach fuzz but don’t go full mountain man.
The move to allow face fur, which took effect Tuesday, was made to give Canadian servicemembers more freedom in their appearances, the military said in a statement.
The new rules, which came after “extensive consultations” with the troops, are expected to boost morale and attract more recruits. They came as neighboring servicemembers to the south are pushing for more relaxed standards on facial hair.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: garb811 on September 28, 2018, 17:36:25
I'd say PMed Techs for the most part.  Maybe WFE Techs too?
MP have it as part of their PPE for opioid exposure, response to aircraft crashes etc.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: mariomike on September 28, 2018, 18:06:08
MP have it as part of their PPE for opioid exposure, response to aircraft crashes etc.

The N95 is a reasonable PPE for First Responders ( on Base, and off ), because they often do not know what they are dealing with.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: ballz on September 28, 2018, 21:00:23
The way I read it is if you attained DP1/OFP once, you can wear a beard therefore OT would be allowed to wear it.

I certainly believe that is the intent, that "new recruits" must shave until they've earned their stripes so to speak, but we all know how well some people do when it comes to achieving intent... see: BOOTFORGEN schmozzle.

You just know there will be some of the more silly folks insisting people who have been in the CAF for 10-20 years and have VOT'd or CFR'd shave their beard off.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 29, 2018, 00:37:16
Now that we've dealt with the beard issue, I'm looking forward to the reintroduction of the Queue, as per the Royal Welch Fusiliers, and addition of the flash on the back of our DEUs:

"How the Flash was retained during the First World War was unravelled in 1932, when (then) Lieutenant-Colonel EO Skaife met with the King at Buckingham Palace who explained how they had retained the Flash during the last war, '...[Senior Officers] said [the Flash] was too conspicuous. I told them that the enemy would never see the Flashes on the backs of the Royal Welch.'

http://www.jonathanhware.com/royal-welch-traditions.html

Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Dimsum on September 29, 2018, 01:37:44
Now that we've dealt with the beard issue, I'm looking forward to the reintroduction of the Queue, as per the Royal Welch Fusiliers, and addition of the flash on the back of our DEUs:

And really, a man-bun is just a bad pig-tail on the top of the head.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: ArmyDoc on September 29, 2018, 08:44:43
What is a N95? I have never heard of it, who in the CAF uses it?
N95 masks are commonly fit-tested to health services personnel, for use should there be an outbreak of respiratory illness (eg influenza). As pointed out, others may also be issued N95 masks like MPs. The key to the N95 is that it requires fit testing through the Fire Marshal (similar to other respirator PPE).
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 29, 2018, 09:27:35
That's right, but it says "UPON ATTAINMENT OF THEIR OPERATIONALLY FUNCTIONAL POINT (OFP) OR HAVING COMPLETED DEVELOPMENTAL PERIOD ONE, WHICHEVER COMES LAST" so what is "development period one?"

I have seen it referred to in a variety of ways and often, in career manager briefings, more so along a spectrum than with a hard and fast point where one goes from DP1 to DP2.

The DPs and OFP should be detailed in each individual Occupation Specification, shouldn't it?  It would contain the detail the NCMGS and Officer equivalent do not specify.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: mariomike on September 29, 2018, 10:20:48
The key to the N95 is that it requires fit testing through the Fire Marshal (similar to other respirator PPE).

If you don't mind me asking, how often is that done?

eg: Annually. Or, more frequently if weight fluctuates or dental alterations occur.

Is there a Medical Directive as to when the N95 respirator is to be worn in the pre-hospital environment?

eg: During active airway management.

Contact with body fluids.

Suspected communicable illness.



   
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: ArmyDoc on September 29, 2018, 11:57:30
I suspect that D Med Pol or FHP have put out direction on N95 use, as well as fit testing, but I don’t have them handy.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: mariomike on September 29, 2018, 13:04:18
I suspect that D Med Pol or FHP have put out direction on N95 use, as well as fit testing, but I don’t have them handy.

It will be interesting to read what D Med Pol or FHP have to say regarding facial hair and the N95. 

N95 Respirator Use
Facial Hair
http://www.lhsc.on.ca/About_Us/LHSC/Programs_Services/FacialHairPosterRev1_1.pdf
"User must be clean shaven where the respirator seals to the skin of the face or neck."






Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Navy_Pete on September 30, 2018, 12:30:49
It will be interesting to read what D Med Pol or FHP have to say regarding facial hair and the N95. 

N95 Respirator Use
Facial Hair
http://www.lhsc.on.ca/About_Us/LHSC/Programs_Services/FacialHairPosterRev1_1.pdf
"User must be clean shaven where the respirator seals to the skin of the face or neck."

For the N95 masks, are you talking about the mouth/nose ones? There are versions that look like fancy dust masks, and others with cartridges. I have the cartridge ones with chemical filters and they don't really get a perfect seal regardless (but they do significantly cut back the fumes).
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: mariomike on September 30, 2018, 13:13:03
For the N95 masks, are you talking about the mouth/nose ones?

I am talking about this one,

https://twitter.com/yorkparamedics/status/672428993073643521

https://twitter.com/DurhamParamedic/status/908069271682666496

We had to be clean shaven when reporting for duty,

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=621&ei=_PewW5ijN5e9jwT5xJKYBg&q=n95+%22clean+shaven%22&oq=n95+%22clean+shaven%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3..35i39k1j0i30k1.7818.8307.0.9334.3.3.0.0.0.0.139.361.1j2.3.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.2.256....0.Gid_DOJxD2w

It will be interesting to read what the CAF D Med Pol or FHP Medical Directives are regarding facial hair and the N95. 






Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: ballz on September 30, 2018, 16:02:15
They probably get a good enough seal for the gas hut where the particles are fairly big, there are a lot of nasty agents out there that are a lot smaller particle size than CS gas. Just something to consider.

The gas mask thing is very interesting to me. People talk about using vaseline... well that's fine and dandy for gas huts but probably not applicable when operating in a CBRN environment.

Perhaps this will spur more thought / technology / ingenuity being put into the design of gas masks. Most people know the MND had patented a device* to allow a gas mask to work with a beard, although seeing the patent I'm not sure how well it would work. Also, considering how crappy it is to wear your CBRN kit for long periods of time, I'm not sure how feasible that device is.

At this point in time, with our current equipment, shaving still seems like the safest bet in a CBRN environment.

*It's essentially a hood that covers your face area and the gas mask can seal to the hood instead of your beard.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Simian Turner on September 30, 2018, 23:38:29
http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/flight-safety/article-template-flight-safety.page?doc=a-ga-135-001-aa-001-chapter-8-post-occurrence-activities/hnfpma84

e. Disposable Industrial Dust Mask (referred to as N95 mask). When this light, comfortable industrial dust mask is properly fitted to the face it allows very little unfiltered air to be inhaled. It provides adequate protection from particulate hazards such as composite fibres, lead oxide dust, depleted uranium dust and asbestos. The N95 mask requires a formal biennial fitting which can be arranged through Base Fire Halls or their equivalents. Instructions on use will be provided at the time of fitment.

f. Reusable Half Face Piece Respirator. The half face mask provides filtering protection against particulates, many gases and vapours (depending on which filter is used). The half face mask is to be used instead of the N95 mask when the concentration of airborne contaminants is higher or if there are any concerns about the level of protection offered by the disposable industrial dust mask. The half face piece respirator is not a self contained breathing apparatus and should not be used when unknown fumes are present, ambient oxygen supply is short, or if there are substances present for which the filter was not designed. This mask requires a formal biennial fitting which can be arranged through Base Fire Halls or their equivalents. Instructions on use, storage and cleaning will be provided at the time of fitment. Due to current allotment levels, only designated FS personnel will be assigned a half face piece. Designation will be determined and subsequently tracked by the appropriate WFSO or UFSO.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: mariomike on September 30, 2018, 23:46:32
http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/flight-safety/article-template-flight-safety.page?doc=a-ga-135-001-aa-001-chapter-8-post-occurrence-activities/hnfpma84

e. Disposable Industrial Dust Mask (referred to as N95 mask). When this light, comfortable industrial dust mask is properly fitted to the face it allows very little unfiltered air to be inhaled. It provides adequate protection from particulate hazards such as composite fibres, lead oxide dust, depleted uranium dust and asbestos. The N95 mask requires a formal biennial fitting which can be arranged through Base Fire Halls or their equivalents. Instructions on use will be provided at the time of fitment.

See also, Reply #622.

 
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: FSTO on October 01, 2018, 10:35:38
I was at the Als vs Riders game yesterday. It was the military appreciation game and there was a lot of people there who wear relish coloured pajamas that needed a shave!!! :tsktsk:


 ;)
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: kratz on October 01, 2018, 10:38:13
5 days since the release of the CANFORGEN and the process for local approval is in place, for Halifax.
With this well thought out message, I don't see any harm in the caution for a few days, in order to correctly implement
the intent of the CDS.

Quote

Subject: CFB Halifax/MARLANT Beard Policy

Ref:  A.  CANFORGEN 158/18 CMP 078/18 251819Z SEP 18
B. A-DH-265-000/AG-001 Canadian Forces Dress Instructions, Chap 2

Alcon,

With the release of ref, all members of the CAF may now grow a beard at their own volition and are not required to submit a memo to their Chain of Command to cease shaving. There is now no minimum length requirement to a beard. 

Beards, when grown, shall conform to the following standards:
a.       It shall be worn with a moustache;
b.      It shall be neatly trimmed, especially at the lower neck and cheekbones, and
c.       It shall not exceed two centimeters in bulk.

CAF personnel desiring to cease shaving shall inform their Chain of Command of their intent to do so. This is not to seek permission, however, it is to ensure that a minimum 30 day period is followed in order for the Commanding Officer or their delegate (normally unit Coxn/CPO1/CWO) to review the beard and direct that the beard be removed if the attempt does not produce a satisfactory outcome. Beards, when grown, are to present a positive appearance; therefore patchy, exaggerated and other likewise unsightly beards may be ordered removed. When so ordered, this does not preclude a CAF member from making subsequent attempts.

Personnel employed at units where the growing of a beard is restricted under RCN policy (i.e HMC Ships) are not permitted to cease shaving in accordance with Ref A para 3.

Beard styles shall conform to ref B, therefore, the following styles are approved for growing:
a.       Short Stubble
b.      Medium Stubble
c.       Long Stubble
d.      Full Beard

 All other beard styles present an exaggerated appearance and are not appropriate for presenting a professional uniformed force; and are therefore not approved.

Request this direction be disseminated within your respective lines of operation.

Questions may be directed to the undersigned.

Yours aye,

Funny thing is, members will continue to have to shave, in order to shape their beard and clean the areas as required by these policies.

Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: theprivate on October 01, 2018, 11:20:57
One of the navy guys I work with is re-doing his CBRN. Being navy, of course he has a beard. This monday, however, he came is with it trimmed down to less than a cm. Apparently to get fitted for a mask, you have to be clean shaven, and in order to get gassed, you have to have your beard super short.
Also, during basic we had a guy on a beard chit who did CBRN in Farnham with a trimmed beard.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 05, 2018, 09:05:12
(https://scontent-frx5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/43076096_2131308416892752_6970131613829038080_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_eui2=AeGHBMZu29F0IF5I2QeUSs6o_Ia1kbD_EIdmge_pbuF_NXCrqi6YOKRIvNuF6qgp9VeMCkJ3pSNUcHoIAeGnnthim08CyN0IhOIUIEONKoH_7A&oh=528bec4a8a4b35eaf130afc1dad8da49&oe=5C5FB654)
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: CanadianTire on October 05, 2018, 16:11:17
Well, a few of us showed up for training on Wednesday with a week-ish worth of growth to no backlash. In fact, most of the senior NCOs were more than happy to tell us what needs to be done to keep our fledgling beards within the regulations.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: LunchMeat on October 05, 2018, 18:27:19
Lots of RSMs are trying to make BEARDFORGEN their own and still demand people to submit memos to grow a beard, and they can't shave every third day.

The CAFCWO and the CCPO caught wind and sent out a very scathing clarifying email to all of the Sergeants-Major across the service:

Quote

 * Not required to submit a memo to their Chain of Command to cease shaving.
* Not required to advise their Chain of Command in any way that they are going to grow a beard.
* May cease shaving at any time, as so desired by the member.
* May resume shaving at any time, as so desired by the member. If the member wishes to grow their beard on the weekend and show up Monday with it, then shave on Tues, the start again Wednesday, then shave on Thurs, they may do so at their own discretion.
* No requirement for a formal process to cease shaving (meaning no 30 day inspections).
* There is no minimum length.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: dangerboy on October 05, 2018, 18:30:03
Lots of RSMs are trying to make BEARDFORGEN their own and still demand people to submit memos to grow a beard, and they can't shave every third day.

The CAFCWO and the CCPO caught wind and sent out a very scathing clarifying email to all of the Sergeants-Major across the service:

Lets see how well this info gets passed down, once people recover from their heart attacks and reverse some really silly directions that have been issued. Or they will ignore this.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: DetectiveMcNulty on October 05, 2018, 18:35:36
I've always thought that if stuff flew in 1 CMBG, it was good enough for the rest of us.  ;D
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Good2Golf on October 05, 2018, 18:50:17
The CWOs/CPO1s who insist on passing on their own personal dress-related ‘command orders’ to support their pet peeves do neither themselves, nor those in the respective organizations any favours.  Also not helping this are Commanders who abrogate their own command responsibilities on such issues, and tacitly permit the ‘Chiefs’ to make up their own rules.  Best is when Chiefs support the Command Team concept, and assist by leveraging their experience and leadership in coordinative supportive of higher orders and policies.

:2c:

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Infanteer on October 05, 2018, 19:02:25
Best is when Chiefs support the Command TeamCommander concept,

I know it's unpopular, but there is only one Commander.  Warrant Officers of all ranks advise and enforce the policies that must be made by the commanders.  They can't abrogate this stuff.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Good2Golf on October 05, 2018, 19:15:45
I know it's unpopular, but there is only one Commander.  Warrant Officers of all ranks advise and enforce the policies that must be made by the commanders.  They can't abrogate this stuff.

Agree fully.  Those Sr. NCMs who get the ‘support the Commander’ bit of the relationship with their respective Commander are credits to the cadre, and worthy of being part of what could rightly be referred to as the ‘Command Team.’  My RSM never tried to influence others in any manner of ‘commanding/ordering,’ and I was quite happy to describe the CO-RSM relationship as a ‘Command Team.’  He was a pleasure to work with, and his rock-solid appreciation of ‘supported-supporting’ never allowed for any confusion of my assigned authority.  Have seen other situations where, through either laziness on the part of the CO to not ensure appropriate direction, or intentional action by the RSM to give directions to troops with the implication that it is with either the CO’s direction or permission, erode the integrity of Command and see troops bear the brunt of ill-considered or inappropriate direction.

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: LunchMeat on October 05, 2018, 20:58:26
But see, some of these further beard restrictions being pushed by SMs were coming from their CO's as well. On the other hand, some COs just let their SMs do the discipline and dress thing as they please.

Times are changing and some COs are not happy and are trying to override the CDS.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: dapaterson on October 05, 2018, 21:00:44
Imagine if a RSM consulted with a CO, then issued direction on behalf of the CO that said, essentially, "The CANFORGEN gave CDS direction.  Follow the order as written, and don't be a jerk about it, and you'll be fine."

Or go with multiple memos, paperwork, and endless Beard parades.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Good2Golf on October 05, 2018, 22:02:03
But see, some of these further beard restrictions being pushed by SMs were coming from their CO's as well. On the other hand, some COs just let their SMs do the discipline and dress thing as they please.

Times are changing and some COs are not happy and are trying to override the CDS.

...and definitely not acceptable either, LM.  In my view, that is disloyal conduct, and not acceptable.  I certainly hope that those COs and/or RSM disseminating orders that run counter to the CDS' order are sorted out.

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 05, 2018, 23:45:14
...and definitely not acceptable either, LM.  In my view, that is disloyal conduct, and not acceptable.  I certainly hope that those COs and/or RSM disseminating orders that run counter to the CDS' order are sorted out.

Regards
G2G

Meanwhile, Submariners be like
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Colin P on October 06, 2018, 01:59:51
Imagine if a RSM consulted with a CO, then issued direction on behalf of the CO that said, essentially, "The CANFORGEN gave CDS direction.  Follow the order as written, and don't be a jerk about it, and you'll be fine."

Or go with multiple memos, paperwork, and endless Beard parades.

Buttons, bows, beards and buds, what else does a army need?
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 06, 2018, 09:22:07
Imagine if a RSM consulted with a CO, then issued direction on behalf of the CO that said, essentially, "The CANFORGEN gave CDS direction.  Follow the order as written, and don't be a jerk about it, and you'll be fine."

Or go with multiple memos, paperwork, and endless Beard parades.

Which is part of that infamous Para 8 of 265...

CONTROL
8. Control is exercised by local commanders who may standardize the dress of subordinates on any occasion, including the wear of accoutrements and alternative or optional items, subject to overall command direction.

However for years, "command direction" from the highest gets ignored/replaced and no one is held accountable.  Then, when rank and file types ignore the CO level direction (which could mean they're adhering to CDS, etc, level direction [BOOTFORGEN comes to mind], they are held to account.  Irony...something something lead by example something something.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: PuckChaser on October 06, 2018, 09:45:05
Buttons, bows, beards and buds, what else does a army need?
Rucksacks, trucks, real modular fighting rigs, pistol replacement, compensation overhaul...

But at least we got weed and beards.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Simian Turner on October 06, 2018, 13:47:48
I've always thought that if stuff flew in 1 CMBG, it was good enough for the rest of us.  ;D

The land of gun racks and big trucks known as the Army of the West has always been an example - not always the right side of good enough!
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Dimsum on October 06, 2018, 18:29:27
owever for years, "command direction" from the highest gets ignored/replaced and no one is held accountable.  Then, when rank and file types ignore the CO level direction (which could mean they're adhering to CDS, etc, level direction [BOOTFORGEN comes to mind], they are held to account.  Irony...something something lead by example something something.

I would like to see the first court martial of someone doing just that.  I'd even travel to be part of the peanut gallery.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 06, 2018, 19:21:41
I would like to see the first court martial of someone doing just that.  I'd even travel to be part of the peanut gallery.

I doubt it would make it that far;  I'd suspect the unit would want to keep punishments informal in nature or at a ST level.  I can't see a ULA saying "yes this charge makes sense" to something like someone not submitting a memo to grow a beard, when the CDS has authorized it.

My experience is that these "infractions" are handled at the unit/sub-unit level with things like extras, duties, etc or by misusing Remedial Measures.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: DetectiveMcNulty on October 06, 2018, 19:31:15
Honestly any command team that goes against CDS direction on something stupid like beards, should cease to be mbrs of said command team.

I see this the same as jacking up soldiers for not shaving that just spent weeks or months getting shot at, blown up etc when they come back to the safety of a major camp.

Sometimes I don't think the reduction in CWO is a bad thing. Thankfully for some of those out there, no one gives a frig about what I think.


 :2c:
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: MJP on October 06, 2018, 19:39:34
Honestly any command team that goes against CDS direction on something stupid like beards, should cease to be mbrs of said command team.

I see this the same as jacking up soldiers for not shaving that just spent weeks or months getting shot at, blown up etc when they come back to the safety of a major camp.

Sometimes I don't think the reduction in CWO is a bad thing. Thankfully for some of those out there, no one gives a frig about what I think.


 :2c:

While I agree with you, almost every CWO posn that was cut was in the technical not command side of the house.  While some on this board will disagree, they were essentially considered to be doing Capt/Maj type staff work backed by experience or tech knowledge not held by those ranks typically.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: PuckChaser on October 06, 2018, 19:45:26
I see this the same as jacking up soldiers for not shaving that just spent weeks or months getting shot at, blown up etc when they come back to the safety of a major camp.

Depends when the jacking up happened. My crew had a "fresh water" rule. If you were at a camp that had showers and running water, you shaved. As soon as ablutions were done with bottled water, shaving ceased. Once you were back to a fresh water camp, had 24 hours to shower, shave and just generally relax. If someone's being jacked up at the clearing bays on the way into KAF, that's unsat. If those dudes have been on KAF for 3 days after a mission and were just being lazy, that's a completely different circumstance. It's almost like there's some sort of common sense that's needed to applying rules.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: DetectiveMcNulty on October 06, 2018, 19:48:52
While I agree with you, almost every CWO posn that was cut was in the technical not command side of the house.  While some on this board will disagree, they were essentially considered to be doing Capt/Maj type staff work backed by experience or tech knowledge not held by those ranks typically.

Seen. I guess I've seen some pretty poor examples at that rank despite how difficult it is to get there. Just me venting I suppose.

I guess my real frustration is that so many of us at different levels have spent years trying to get a mission done, often without proper manning, funding, or support. And yet there are people that have the time and energy to expend on stupid crap (often at the expense of those doing operational work) - it drives me nuts. Anways, I digress.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: cld617 on October 11, 2018, 20:27:12
Lots of RSMs are trying to make BEARDFORGEN their own and still demand people to submit memos to grow a beard, and they can't shave every third day.

The CAFCWO and the CCPO caught wind and sent out a very scathing clarifying email to all of the Sergeants-Major across the service:

Quote
* Not required to submit a memo to their Chain of Command to cease shaving.
* Not required to advise their Chain of Command in any way that they are going to grow a beard.
* May cease shaving at any time, as so desired by the member.
* May resume shaving at any time, as so desired by the member. If the member wishes to grow their beard on the weekend and show up Monday with it, then shave on Tues, the start again Wednesday, then shave on Thurs, they may do so at their own discretion.
* No requirement for a formal process to cease shaving (meaning no 30 day inspections).
* There is no minimum length.

Interesting, Cold Lake finally caught up with this.

Except that the WCWO finished off his speech of all the direction necessary being in the CANFORGEN, with something to the effect of "people who wish to shave and regrow, shave and regrow will be dealt with individually." The ones who choose to test the limits as he put it. Nothing like being met with subtle threats from those who've already been told to take a step back on the MAKEITTHEFUCKUPFORGEN's.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: trooper142 on October 11, 2018, 20:47:53


Interesting, Cold Lake finally caught up with this.

Except that the WCWO finished off his speech of all the direction necessary being in the CANFORGEN, with something to the effect of "people who wish to shave and regrow, shave and regrow will be dealt with individually." The ones who choose to test the limits as he put it. Nothing like being met with subtle threats from those who've already been told to take a step back on the MAKEITTHEFUCKUPFORGEN's.

Think you could post this email on the forum? Or get a copy of it somehow?

My CoC told me I was to ask permission to grow a beard, and upon permission I had 30 days to prove I could grow a beard, if not , no further attempts would be authorized.

Obviously upon reading your post, I became curious if this direction had reached my CoC and they are simply ignoring it,hoping the troops don't know any better, or it hasn't reached them yet, an they are still being ignorant to the actual CANFORGEN.

Any help would be appreciated
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: runormal on October 11, 2018, 22:47:48
Why pick an unnecessary fight? I agree that it is flat out ridiculous, but IMO it's not worth fighting about. They wanted an email and a memo. I asked a friend for their memo and changed their name to my name.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: trooper142 on October 12, 2018, 00:24:26
Why pick an unnecessary fight? I agree that it is flat out ridiculous, but IMO it's not worth fighting about. They wanted an email and a memo. I asked a friend for their memo and changed their name to my name.

I don't see this as an unnecessary fight! The CoC in some locations is actively defying the will and orders of the CDS. It may seem like a small issue with beards, but it is a symptom of a wider problem imo.

If you don't push back when the CoC is being unreasonable and, in this case, actively disobeying orders from higher, that sets the stage for further incursions.

Just my  :2c:
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 12, 2018, 00:35:14
I don't see this as an unnecessary fight! The CoC in some locations is actively defying the will and orders of the CDS. It may seem like a small issue with beards, but it is a symptom of a wider problem imo.

If you don't push back when the CoC is being unreasonable and, in this case, actively disobeying orders from higher, that sets the stage for further incursions.

Just my  :2c:

I agree with this which is why I usually refer to CANFORGENs as CANFORSUGENs (Canadian Forces Suggestions) as people seem to just make it up anyway. 

The thing that annoys me the most about these types is they will harp on stupid petty BS like this but then actively screw over there subordinates by not actually doing there jobs, like making sure routine administration, that when delayed costs people money and time, is actioned properly.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: trooper142 on October 12, 2018, 01:58:27
I agree with this which is why I usually refer to CANFORGENs as CANFORSUGENs (Canadian Forces Suggestions) as people seem to just make it up anyway. 

The thing that annoys me the most about these types is they will harp on stupid petty BS like this but then actively screw over there subordinates by not actually doing there jobs, like making sure routine administration that when delayed, costs people money and time, is actioned properly.

Hit the nail on the head IMO. It is a sign of weak leadership at all levels when this type of thing is allowed to fester; from the Sgt/Junior officer level all the way to the command team level for not pushing back at these contradictory orders and directives; same thing is occurring with boot reimbursement.

 Credit to the CAFCWO for recognizing the problem children and sorting them out in short order! If only we had the email that was circulated so the troops could have some ammo when confronting their CoC. Further, if what was said about that Wing CWO is true and they are subtly threatening their troops, then shame on them; not deserving of leadership positions.

Keep the pressure up and things will continue to change for the better, don't let poor leadership bring you down; let it be an example of what not to do when you achieve a leadership position.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Lumber on October 12, 2018, 09:00:55
I'd like to see this beard email myself.

I have the email from the CFB Halifax Base Chief that states clearly:

Quote
CAF personnel may cease shaving at any time so desired by the member; additionally there is no requirement for a formal process to cease shaving. When a CAF member so chooses to grow a beard, the beard shall be trimmed as detailed above commencing on the first day; there is no longer a period where the beard can be grown out before trimming.

For example a member may choose to grow their beard out on Monday, decide to shave it all off on Tuesday, recommence growing on Wednesday, shave it off again on Thursday and so on at their discretion.

Beards, when grown, are to present a positive appearance; therefore patchy, exaggerated and other likewise unsightly beards may be ordered removed. When so ordered, this does not preclude a CAF member from making subsequent attempts. It is the responsibility of supervisors at all levels to ensure the standards for beards listed above are adhered to, regardless of the length of time the member has elected to grow a beard.

I could copy and paste the whole email, including the signature block, but I'm not sure that's appropriate. Is it?
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: trooper142 on October 12, 2018, 09:18:57
I have the email from the CFB Halifax Base Chief that states clearly:

I could copy and paste the whole email, including the signature block, but I'm not sure that's appropriate. Is it?

I was hoping to have the original email from the CAFCWO! Adds ammunition to a members argument if they have today defend themselves with their chain!

We are already seeing different interpretations of this policy, regardless of clear direction from higher; and potential threats from a Wing CWO to his subordinates who decide to play by the rules exactly as stated.

But people are leaving the military because of the money, nothing to do with petty games played by people who are upset their military is changing, and they don't like it so they cling to the last bits of power they have in the hopes of stemming off the hoard of change . ::)
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: kratz on October 12, 2018, 09:48:43
Quote from: Lumber

I could copy and paste the whole email, including the signature block, but I'm not sure that's appropriate. Is it?

Reply # 67 of the topic has the entire email. The only part removed was the signature block.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Lumber on October 12, 2018, 10:24:34
Reply # 67 of the topic has the entire email. The only part removed was the signature block.

Kratz,

I saw that, but the email you posted at reply #67 was actually changed the very next day. You'll notice that the original email (the one you posted) states:

Quote
CAF personnel desiring to cease shaving shall inform their Chain of Command of their intent to do so. This is not to seek permission, however, it is to ensure that a minimum 30 day period is followed in order for the Commanding Officer or their delegate (normally unit Coxn/CPO1/CWO) to review the beard and direct that the beard be removed if the attempt does not produce a satisfactory outcome.   

Which was changed to:

Quote
...all members of the CAF may now grow a beard at their own volition and are not required to submit a memo to their Chain of Command to cease shaving. CAF members do not have to advise their Chain of Command in any way should they choose to grow a beard...

and

Quote
CAF personnel may cease shaving at any time so desired by the member; additionally there is no requirement for a formal process to cease shaving.

Cheers

Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Navy_Pete on October 12, 2018, 10:54:24
If units are running this off the rails, why don't they send out an amplifying CANFORGEN or a CAF wide email with these points?  If not following the CANFORGEN is a problem, not sure what exactly an email to the Chief chain would do.

Our unit Chief basically just said here's the order, pretty self explanatory, follow them, and ask if you have any questions. That should be a pretty easy approach, unless you are the type of leader that hides feelings of inadequacy by massively overcompensating and trying to take 'ownership' of things that you don't need to. If they really want to lead change, just grow a beard.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: PuckChaser on October 12, 2018, 10:58:43
If units are running this off the rails, why don't they send out an amplifying CANFORGEN or a CAF wide email with these points?  If not following the CANFORGEN is a problem, not sure what exactly an email to the Chief chain would do.

Because that would admit to the entire CAF that unit commanders are disregarding D&G from the CDS. Its all politics. Don't want to prove to us lowly NCOs what we already believe to be true.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: QV on October 12, 2018, 11:15:19
The inability for some to understand and follow this simple order is indicative of deeper issues.   
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Lumber on October 12, 2018, 11:51:25
I do feel like the CANFORGEN leaves room for interpretation.

I just re-read the CANFORGEN and the base chief's email, and the only thing the CANFORGEN says that is actually material regarding the actual "beard" is:

Quote
- EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE WEARING OF A BEARD IS AUTHORIZED FOR ALL CAF MEMBERS UPON ATTAINMENT OF THEIR OPERATIONALLY FUNCTIONAL POINT (OFP) OR HAVING COMPLETED DEVELOPMENTAL PERIOD ONE, WHICHEVER COMES LAST.

and

Quote
a. IT SHALL BE WORN WITH A MOUSTACHE,
b. IT SHALL BE NEATLY TRIMMED, ESPECIALLY ON THE LOWER NECK AND CHEEKBONES,
c. IT SHALL NOT EXCEED TWO CENTIMETERS IN BULK. A MEMBER WILL, ON THEIR OWN ACCORD OR UPON DIRECTION FROM THEIR COMMANDING OFFICER OR THEIR CO S DESIGNATE, SHAVE OFF UNSUCCESSFUL ATTEMPTS TO GROW A BEARD.

But some of the "direction" coming from the base chief just doesn't seem to be supported by what little is written in the CANFORGEN, namely:

The email from the base chief states that acceptable styles of beard include short stubble, medium stubble, long stubble, and full beard. However, no where in the CANFORGEN does it say that short, medium or long "stubble" is an acceptable definition of a "beard", which means that someone at some point made that assumption.

Further, the existing dress regs don't say anything about needing permission from the chain of command, a memo, and needing a beard suitability assessment after 30 days, yet we all accepted that that was the accepted practice, did we not? Why now has that rule been removed? It doesn't say anything about this in the CANFORGEN, it just says "everyone is authorized", so someone at some point had to make that assumption. I mean, there are a lot of things that we are authorized to do, but still have steps to follow before doing them.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: SeaKingTacco on October 12, 2018, 11:55:25
Lets also be clear the Unit/Formation CWOs have no authority to issue direction on their own. They generally do not have any subordinates. They are advisors.

The authority to Command belongs to Commanding Officers/Commanders, at all levels.

Therefore, if CANFORGENs are being ignored/misinterpreted, lets lay the blme where it belongs- with officers who are not doing their job properly.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Dimsum on October 12, 2018, 11:57:35
I feel this is apt for some reason:

https://youtu.be/N16YkjFVAyE?t=160
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 12, 2018, 12:16:27
Lets also be clear the Unit/Formation CWOs have no authority to issue direction on their own. They generally do not have any subordinates. They are advisors.

The authority to Command belongs to Commanding Officers/Commanders, at all levels.

Therefore, if CANFORGENs are being ignored/misinterpreted, lets lay the blme where it belongs- with officers who are not doing their job properly.

Correct. My Commanding Officers delegated dress matters to me and I could say yes/no to certain housekeeping points. I could not go off on my own without his say so.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: runormal on October 12, 2018, 13:12:49
Say I'm your chain of command. What if I just don't support your memo? Or if you grow your beard and after 30 days I say nope don't like it shave it off and don't attempt again.

Are you going to be okay with that, especially if your peers are allowed to grow theirs?

I'm also hearing young officers have been getting a hard time in certain chains of command because their shaven CO's don't like it.

I'd like to see this beard email myself.

I guess a large part of this is that i'm a reservist. It's not impacting my general day to day life, which is probably causing a bit of disconnect to the actual issue that some personel are facing. My hope, is that by the time my 30 day window "ticks" that my COC has "un-****ed" themselves. I will be quite pissed in 30 days that they come to me and say "Cpl XXX" shave that beard off, CLEAN SHAVEN for rememberance day ;D".

For me, it took 30 seconds to send my memo up the COC, so it's a "whatever" issue. Hopefully, by then the dust will have settled and that'll be that. It's less work for me to send up a memo, then it is to argue with my COC.

Is it is a complete waste of my time? - 100%
Is it going to achieve anything? - No
Is it a failure of leadership - Absoutely..

I don't really have anything else to add and  I don't disagree with trooper142 or Humphrey Bogart.


Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 12, 2018, 14:05:01
If units are running this off the rails, why don't they send out an amplifying CANFORGEN or a CAF wide email with these points?  If not following the CANFORGEN is a problem, not sure what exactly an email to the Chief chain would do

I think that a couple of thousand 'redress of grievance' submissions, within a month or so, would do a much better job of sending a message up the chain :)
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: NEM3sis on October 12, 2018, 18:11:38
Would be nice if RSMs were to share the info contained in that email.
We had a town hall with Group command last week and group Chief was clear that you either grow a beard or you don't and that the only acceptable beard is as per current dress manual policy.

I can't grow a beard but my face would be very thankful if I could shave every other day instead of just shaving skin everyday.

And I am not gonna risk shaving every other day if I don't get a thumbs up thru official channels...I don't think quoting army.ca to my RSM would end up working in my favor.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 12, 2018, 18:30:25
If units are running this off the rails, why don't they send out an amplifying CANFORGEN or a CAF wide email with these points?  If not following the CANFORGEN is a problem, not sure what exactly an email to the Chief chain would do.

Our unit Chief basically just said here's the order, pretty self explanatory, follow them, and ask if you have any questions. That should be a pretty easy approach, unless you are the type of leader that hides feelings of inadequacy by massively overcompensating and trying to take 'ownership' of things that you don't need to. If they really want to lead change, just grow a beard.

The irony is that the best way to nip other systemic issues like Op HONOUR, Harassment, Veterans Issues, etc is to deal with small issues like this.  If Commanding Officers can't even be trusted to let a man grow a freaking beard, how can we be trusted to deal with bigger issues?

I can grow a full beard in a matter of weeks and I've done it multiple times since I've been in.  Give me eight weeks and I can look like a Boer Commando (my Dutch ancestors would be proud)  It has had zero impact on my ability to do my job and I can shave it if required at a moments notice.

People who want to grow big beards will come to realize they are also huge a pain in the butt to maintain.  For one thing, they itch like crazy at times and those beard hairs tingle like crazy with the slightest breeze.  Secondly, eating is a pain in the butt as food often gets all over your lovely face coiff!  Nothing worse than eating one of the many liquid rations we have and having your beard smell like omelette and salsa for a week straight!

Do the Boer Commandos proud and grow a big beard though!  General Cronje will smile upon you!

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a8/45/4c/a8454cd1be1d7378951050f338620d77.jpg)

Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: PPCLI Guy on October 12, 2018, 20:32:58
The irony is that the best way to nip other systemic issues like Op HONOUR, Harassment, Veterans Issues, etc is to deal with small issues like this.  If Commanding Officers can't even be trusted to let a man grow a freaking beard, how can we be trusted to deal with bigger issues?



Yup!
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 12, 2018, 20:50:54
The irony is that the best way to nip other systemic issues like Op HONOUR, Harassment, Veterans Issues, etc is to deal with small issues like this.  If Commanding Officers can't even be trusted to let a man grow a freaking beard, how can we be trusted to deal with bigger issues?

So, have you got something against (people who identify as) women growing beards?  :tsktsk: ;)
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on October 12, 2018, 20:55:59
So, have you got something against (people who identify as) women growing beards?  :tsktsk: ;)

You are right, my GBA+ training should have taught me that beardforgen is a gender neutral initiative  :nod:
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: DetectiveMcNulty on October 12, 2018, 21:14:36
Something I've always wondered. Where does all this crap start?

Direction comes down, where (or with whom) does it start to go wrong usually? Many of you posting in this thread are officers, and several are senior officers and maybe even a GOFO or two. What gives?

Pretty sure it's not a Capt or Lt(N) calling the shots. So is it really coming from Commanders/COs or is it starting with the CWO and no one is stopping them when things get out of hand?

An honest question from a humble broom pusher...

Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 13, 2018, 04:26:09
I was hoping to have the original email from the CAFCWO! Adds ammunition to a members argument if they have today defend themselves with their chain!


But, like recognized/discussed earlier in the thread, the CAFCWO is not the Commander who signed off.  While he/she is the CAFCWO, they do not outrank a Officer Commanding a Command, nor a Commanding Officer.  That 'clarification' needs to come from the actual authority, which not to diminish NCOs, Snr NCOs, Warrant Officers and Petty Officers, but we never are the Commander who decides on policy.  My Wing Dress Instructions are signed by the Wing Commander, not the Wing CWO.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 13, 2018, 04:40:17
I do feel like the CANFORGEN leaves room for interpretation.

I just re-read the CANFORGEN and the base chief's email, and the only thing the CANFORGEN says that is actually material regarding the actual "beard" is:

and

But some of the "direction" coming from the base chief just doesn't seem to be supported by what little is written in the CANFORGEN, namely:

The email from the base chief states that acceptable styles of beard include short stubble, medium stubble, long stubble, and full beard. However, no where in the CANFORGEN does it say that short, medium or long "stubble" is an acceptable definition of a "beard", which means that someone at some point made that assumption.

But, the CANFORGEN does say "up to 2cm in length", and that a mbr can cease and/or start shaving again at any time.  Base on that, I can have facial hair anywhere between "clean shaven" and "2cm in length" and tided up on the cheeks and neck.  How much direction to we need to define "clean shaven to 2cm long"? 

If I get a take off time of 0800, and a land time of 1600...do I also need to be told "to be clear you will be flying at 0900, 1000, 1100, 1200, 1300, 1400 and 1500hrs", or can common sense dictate that 'from 0800 to 1600' includes those hours as well? 

Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: trooper142 on October 13, 2018, 05:48:20
But, like recognized/discussed earlier in the thread, the CAFCWO is not the Commander who signed off.  While he/she is the CAFCWO, they do not outrank a Officer Commanding a Command, nor a Commanding Officer.  That 'clarification' needs to come from the actual authority, which not to diminish NCOs, Snr NCOs, Warrant Officers and Petty Officers, but we never are the Commander who decides on policy.  My Wing Dress Instructions are signed by the Wing Commander, not the Wing CWO.


Just my  :2c:, but one would think if he made it to the level of CAFCWO, he might understand that decisions on policy come from the officer side of the house. Equally so, one could argue the email was sent out with the blessing of the CDS, who ultimately decided on this change in policy.

I don't know about you, but if I made a decision that was pretty clear and I hear of my subordinates actively disobeying said order, i would be making sure it's clarified in short order.

I can only imagine, and I am guessing here, that the CDS delegates this to the CAFCWO, but maybe I'm wrong?
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 13, 2018, 09:51:12

Just my  :2c:, but one would think if he made it to the level of CAFCWO, he might understand that decisions on policy come from the officer side of the house. Equally so, one could argue the email was sent out with the blessing of the CDS, who ultimately decided on this change in policy.

I've underlined what I think is the important part.

Quote
I don't know about you, but if I made a decision that was pretty clear and I hear of my subordinates actively disobeying said order, i would be making sure it's clarified in short order.

Correct.  However, if you were a Troop Leader, and your Patrol Commanders were not following your direction, would you direct your Junior Crew Commanders to rectify the situation? 

There is a CWO/CPO "net" (I'll refrain from calling it CofC).  Yes, the CAFCWO is the top of that ladder.  Yes, the CWO/CPOs in Senior Appointments are 'subordinate' to the CAFCWO, but the CAFCWO isn't their Commander;  the RCAF CWO is the NCM Advisor to his/her Commander, the RCAF Commander - not the CAF CWO.  This shouldn't really be a new thing to anyone in the CAF;  Tp Ldr's have Tp WOs to advise/assist them, OCs have SSMs to advise/assist them, COs have RSMs to advise/assist them.  If the OC goes down on the 2 way range, who is the next in line for Command?  I think the SSM is fairly far down the line for taking over command of the Sqn.

From earlier in the thread, a few posts starting with G2G and Infanteer that highlight the Commander/CWO-CPO relation and difference in Command/enforcement.

https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,129147.msg1550449.html#msg1550449
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: meni0n on October 13, 2018, 10:30:17
Just had parade night yesterday and the SSM came out to clarify the unit's position on the beards. Their direction is to put in a memo which would have a starting date and 30 days after the starting date a beard "committee" would inspect the beard to make sure it's good. He said it's basically to stop people from shaving and restarting their beards.

I am very certain that's really against what the CANFORGEN stated. The only thing I see in the CANFORGEN for length of beard is that it should be under 2cm and I can start growing one without the need to write a memo. Next move, I'll start off writing to the chain to ask them to clarify their position and then if it still stands, either start coming in with a beard or put in a grievance I guess to stop them from making up arbitrary policy.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Remius on October 13, 2018, 10:43:42
Just had parade night yesterday and the SSM came out to clarify the unit's position on the beards. Their direction is to put in a memo which would have a starting date and 30 days after the starting date a beard "committee" would inspect the beard to make sure it's good. He said it's basically to stop people from shaving and restarting their beards.

I am very certain that's really against what the CANFORGEN stated. The only thing I see in the CANFORGEN for length of beard is that it should be under 2cm and I can start growing one without the need to write a memo. Next move, I'll start off writing to the chain to ask them to clarify their position and then if it still stands, either start coming in with a beard or put in a grievance I guess to stop them from making up arbitrary policy.

Keep it simple.  People can choose to grow a beard.  It becomes obvious when people do.  Immediate COC can monitor success rate or not.  Grooming standards just like haircuts and moustaches are enforced.  Only our RSM has been given authority as delegated by the CO to order someone to remove and start over. 

Our unit is keeping it simple.  We have better things to do.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: PuckChaser on October 13, 2018, 12:17:43
If anyone has DWAN access, go to the ACMIS page for the dress committee. It has some excellent backgrounders on many Army dress decisions, but more specifically a glorious briefing note in favour of allowing beards. The MWO that prepared it is an absolute wordsmith.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Dimsum on October 13, 2018, 12:46:56
He said it's basically to stop people from shaving and restarting their beards.

I am very certain that's really against what the CANFORGEN stated.

It is.  Our unit CWO said the opposite - people can shave and restart according to the CANFORGEN. 
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on October 13, 2018, 16:58:16
Do we need to shave everyday?  That’s what most people want to know. 

Why can’t they just say “you don’t need to shave everyday”?

This shave and restart stuff is nonsense. 
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: runormal on October 13, 2018, 20:11:43
Do we need to shave everyday?  That’s what most people want to know. 

Why can’t they just say “you don’t need to shave everyday”?

This shave and restart stuff is nonsense.

As far as I understand the policy, you need to clean up the neck and cheeks every day, even if you have the beard or are in the process of growing it.  So doesn't that itself close the loophole around anyone saying that "they are now growing a beard", even if they have no intention of doing so?.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: ballz on October 13, 2018, 23:39:06
Something I've always wondered. Where does all this crap start?

It starts where accountability stops...

So is it really coming from Commanders/COs or is it starting with the CWO and no one is stopping them when things get out of hand?

Each place will be different. In some places it will be a unit CO or higher level Commander, in others it will be a CWO or MWO who is not being corrected. In either case, it's the fault of the officer.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Quirky on October 13, 2018, 23:45:03
Do we need to shave everyday?  That’s what most people want to know. 

Why can’t they just say “you don’t need to shave everyday”?

This shave and restart stuff is nonsense.

No it is, the canforgen doesn’t specify a minimal growth length. You can restart your beard anytime you want, even if that means shaving every other day. We were instructed to follow the canforgen and current beard regs, meaning you must shave your neck and cheek bones everyday. The rest is up to you. I have no intention to grow a beard but it’s nice to know that I can go between days on really cold, dry days. This doesn’t affect my ability to do my job, people who object to stubble are just dinosaurs who are the exact reason why the CF can’t recruit/retain people. 
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: cld617 on October 14, 2018, 00:17:32
This doesn’t affect my ability to do my job, people who object to stubble are just dinosaurs who are the exact reason why the CF can’t recruit/retain people.

"something something discipline, or lack thereof if the troops don't shave." - Undisciplined CO/RSM/CWO ignoring direction from higher authority
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Lumber on October 14, 2018, 09:17:32
As far as I understand the policy, you need to clean up the neck and cheeks every day, even if you have the beard or are in the process of growing it.  So doesn't that itself close the loophole around anyone saying that "they are now growing a beard", even if they have no intention of doing so?.

That's funny because when I was growing an actual beard under the old policy, I didn't shave the neck and cheeks everyday.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Bird_Gunner45 on October 14, 2018, 10:38:21
That's funny because when I was growing an actual beard under the old policy, I didn't shave the neck and cheeks everyday.

The policy is clear so your CoC ought to have made you follow it. It's the same as the guys who had shave chits but never trimmed so they were out of standard.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Good2Golf on October 14, 2018, 12:00:23
It starts where accountability stops...
...
Each place will be different. In some places it will be a unit CO or higher level Commander, in others it will be a CWO or MWO who is not being corrected. In either case, it's the fault of the officer.

This. :nod:


Regards
G2G
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: TrunkMonkey315 on October 14, 2018, 13:28:40
That's funny because when I was growing an actual beard under the old policy, I didn't shave the neck and cheeks everyday.

Once a week, maybe twice I'll clean it up.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 15, 2018, 12:15:47
The policy is clear so your CoC ought to have made you follow it. It's the same as the guys who had shave chits but never trimmed so they were out of standard.

Direction where I hang my hat was those with medical chits were not permitted to shave the neck and cheeks because they were on a no shave chit. 
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Pusser on October 15, 2018, 13:05:34
No it is, the canforgen doesn’t specify a minimal growth length. You can restart your beard anytime you want, even if that means shaving every other day. We were instructed to follow the canforgen and current beard regs, meaning you must shave your neck and cheek bones everyday. The rest is up to you. I have no intention to grow a beard but it’s nice to know that I can go between days on really cold, dry days. This doesn’t affect my ability to do my job, people who object to stubble are just dinosaurs who are the exact reason why the CF can’t recruit/retain people.

Wow!  What a weasel approach.  The intent of the new policy is to allow everyone the opportunity to grow a beard if they so choose, not provide an excuse to neglect personal grooming if you don't feel like it today.  If you want to grow a beard, then grow a beard, but don't game the system.  There's no excuse for looking scruffy.

Right now the rules are fairly relaxed, but I'll bet that if folks are going to be stupid about this, more detailed instructions will follow.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: cld617 on October 15, 2018, 13:09:46
There's no excuse for looking scruffy.

By what metric are you using to determine scruffy, what density of facial hair is required before it's a beard?
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: LunchMeat on October 15, 2018, 13:09:59
Wow!  What a weasel approach.  The intent of the new policy is to allow everyone the opportunity to grow a beard if they so choose, not provide an excuse to neglect personal grooming if you don't feel like it today.  If you want to grow a beard, then grow a beard, but don't game the system.  There's no excuse for looking scruffy.

Right now the rules are fairly relaxed, but I'll bet that if folks are going to be stupid about this, more detailed instructions will follow.

I guess you haven't been following along have you?

The CDS and the CAFCWO, CCPO had to send out clarification clearly stating that the CANFORGEN permits people to shave every second day if they choose.

CoC's across the country were reading the CANFORGEN and making it much more restrictive (probably out of old dinosaur hate for anything modern) and the CDS was not having it.

So no, I don't think more restrictive rules are going to come out because they had the chance and didn't, in fact the clarifying statement relaxed the rules.

Just because you don't like it, and don't like scruffy people, doesn't mean everyone else has to suffer too.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: NEM3sis on October 15, 2018, 13:42:11
But the clarification only been sent to RSMs who are the one applying/enforcing the policy.
if they choose not to disseminate the message to exercise control, that clarification is null.
So a message Force-wide, not to a select-few who then decide if they want to share the knowledge or not, expressing that clarification would be nice.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: meni0n on October 15, 2018, 13:43:44
I was going to say it would be nice to have that clarification because the unit I'm at thinking it's ok to have members put in memos before growing beards and have beard committees
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 15, 2018, 14:26:15
I was going to say it would be nice to have that clarification because the unit I'm at thinking it's ok to have members put in memos before growing beards and have beard committees

You, Sir, have won the internet for the day. Thank you for that.  :rofl:
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: dapaterson on October 15, 2018, 14:26:45
So, regimental beard committee at D+30, squadron at D+15, troop at D+7, and section at D+2 means you better be able to grow a beard within 48 hours...
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 15, 2018, 14:34:24
Are members who grow beards for religious reasons held to the same beard grooming standards as everyone else?  ie 2 cm, clean neck etc..
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: PMedMoe on October 15, 2018, 14:41:09
Are members who grow beards for religious reasons held to the same beard grooming standards as everyone else?  ie 2 cm, clean neck etc..

They weren't before the CANFORGEN. Why would they be now?
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Blackadder1916 on October 15, 2018, 14:45:47
So, as I sit here stroking my graying, mandatory post-retirement beard in contemplation, I'm left wondering "what is a beard?".  Damn near everything else in the military has an official definition, but other than the drawing of what should be the limits of a beard in dress instructions there are no other definitions.  When does being "unshaven" become a beard?  I have my idea of the delineation, but, like Potter Stewart in Jacobellis v. Ohio, it is very much "I know it when I see it".  "Scruffy" is not a beard; it is an attitude that does not project the vision of discipline expected in a military force.  Stubble is not a beard; it is a fashion choice oft associated with pastel suits, sports cars and Miami nightlife, not to mention Italian (or other Mediterranean European) gigolos on beaches in banana hammocks.

Yes, I may be a dinosaur in the minds of those who think they should be able to do as they please as long as they think "it doesn't affect their job".  However, I expect a certain level of consistency in dress and deportment of members of the CAF.  I have no problems with any and all in uniform growing a beard (if they have the hormonal fortitude to do so), I once had a good start on full facial hair (I already had the pornstar 'stache) while working with 3VP's pioneer platoon about 4 decades ago.  And I also remember similar angst (though far from the horror portrayed here) in the 1970s when the creeping length of sideburns sent RSMs into spasm.  The CANFORGEN was poorly written; what I assume was to be a change to dress instruction to no longer limit beards to Navy types and infantry pioneers (if such an animal still exists) as long as operational requirements (and that being the "only" restriction) were met, instead now seems to be an accepted policy of soldiers can do whatever the frig they want with regards facial hair.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: meni0n on October 15, 2018, 14:54:40
You, Sir, have won the internet for the day. Thank you for that.  :rofl:

I wish I was joking but that's what the SSM said. After 30 days of growing your beard, a beard committee will inspect it to see if it's a successful attempt or not. I wonder if there is a course the beard committee members have to take. Beard Officianados DP1 ?

Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: dapaterson on October 15, 2018, 14:59:21
PER points.  "Successfully disqualified 17 beards during the reporting period."
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Technoviking on October 15, 2018, 15:47:21
Is this the beard committee?

Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: meni0n on October 15, 2018, 15:50:18

I imagine it would more like that...

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/es.starwars/images/3/34/Sal%C3%B3n_del_Alto_Consejo_Jedi.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20061126175649
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Blackadder1916 on October 15, 2018, 16:13:45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rtsw9lKe9k
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: PuckChaser on October 15, 2018, 17:10:36
I'm confused at where people are reading that the lower neck and cheekbones have to be clean shaven every day?

Quote
4.WHERE THE WEARING OF A BEARD IS AUTHORIZED:

A. IT SHALL BE WORN WITH A MOUSTACHE,

B. IT SHALL BE NEATLY TRIMMED, ESPECIALLY ON THE LOWER NECK AND CHEEKBONES,

C. IT SHALL NOT EXCEED TWO CENTIMETERS IN BULK. A MEMBER WILL, ON THEIR OWN ACCORD OR UPON DIRECTION FROM THEIR COMMANDING OFFICER OR THEIR CO S DESIGNATE, SHAVE OFF UNSUCCESSFUL ATTEMPTS TO GROW A BEARD.

5.THE DIRECTION PERTAINING TO THE TRIMMING OF A BEARD AT PARA 5 ABOVE DOES NOT APPLY TO CAF MEMBERS WHO ARE EXEMPT, FOR MEDICAL REASONS, FROM SHAVING THE LOWER NECK OR CHEECKBONES

4.B. says neatly trimmed, not clean shaven. That means no hipster neck-beards, but does not mean you have to have it clean shaven every day.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: QV on October 15, 2018, 17:25:35
So, as I sit here stroking my graying, mandatory post-retirement beard in contemplation, I'm left wondering "what is a beard?".  Damn near everything else in the military has an official definition, but other than the drawing of what should be the limits of a beard in dress instructions there are no other definitions.  When does being "unshaven" become a beard?  I have my idea of the delineation, but, like Potter Stewart in Jacobellis v. Ohio, it is very much "I know it when I see it".  "Scruffy" is not a beard; it is an attitude that does not project the vision of discipline expected in a military force.  Stubble is not a beard; it is a fashion choice oft associated with pastel suits, sports cars and Miami nightlife, not to mention Italian (or other Mediterranean European) gigolos on beaches in banana hammocks.

Yes, I may be a dinosaur in the minds of those who think they should be able to do as they please as long as they think "it doesn't affect their job".  However, I expect a certain level of consistency in dress and deportment of members of the CAF.  I have no problems with any and all in uniform growing a beard (if they have the hormonal fortitude to do so), I once had a good start on full facial hair (I already had the pornstar 'stache) while working with 3VP's pioneer platoon about 4 decades ago.  And I also remember similar angst (though far from the horror portrayed here) in the 1970s when the creeping length of sideburns sent RSMs into spasm.  The CANFORGEN was poorly written; what I assume was to be a change to dress instruction to no longer limit beards to Navy types and infantry pioneers (if such an animal still exists) as long as operational requirements (and that being the "only" restriction) were met, instead now seems to be an accepted policy of soldiers can do whatever the frig they want with regards facial hair.

The view on this is definitely going to be varied.  I suppose you could you look at this with similar discontent as those not entirely thrilled with the waxed handle bar moustache standard which was popular with soldiers in the 19th century through to WWI (according to Wikipedia) and still sported to this day by some.     
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: runormal on October 15, 2018, 18:54:53
I'm confused at where people are reading that the lower neck and cheekbones have to be clean shaven every day?

4.B. says neatly trimmed, not clean shaven. That means no hipster neck-beards, but does not mean you have to have it clean shaven every day.

I guess, I assumed that neatly trimmed meant that the beard itself would be neatly trimmed/styled. In my opinion, this would require one to keep the cheeks/cheeks shaven. Otherwise, it wouldn't look neat.

Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 16, 2018, 00:25:51
They weren't before the CANFORGEN. Why would they be now?

One standard to hold everyone to.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: PMedMoe on October 16, 2018, 09:09:15
One standard to hold everyone to.

Before the CANFORGEN, they were not held at the same standard due to religion.  Don't see why that would change.

Should the indigenous males allowed to have long hair get it cut now too??
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: PuckChaser on October 16, 2018, 09:21:52
Before the CANFORGEN, they were not held at the same standard due to religion.  Don't see why that would change.

Should the indigenous males allowed to have long hair get it cut now too??
No, but everyone else should be allowed to have it if they want. It clearly doesn't have any negative impacts operationally or with discipline, or no one would be allowed to have long hair.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 16, 2018, 09:22:08
Before the CANFORGEN, they were not held at the same standard due to religion.  Don't see why that would change.

Should the indigenous males allowed to have long hair get it cut now too??

I was thinking the opposite. I'm not suggesting people who grow beards for religious reasons cut their beards in accordance with the dress regs rather people who want to grow a beard can do so in the same manner as someone who claims growing a (non-trimmed) beard brings them closer to Jesus or Xenu (or in my case the God-Emperor of mankind).

"Should indigenous males cut their hair?"  Nope. Why not just let all guys grow long hair? I hear it might improve recruiting.


Serious question, if a biological woman with long hair identifies as a male does he have to cut his hair according to male dress regs?
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Lumber on October 16, 2018, 09:34:50
Serious question, if a biological woman with long hair identifies as a male does he have to cut his hair according to male dress regs?

Yes.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 16, 2018, 09:49:39
Fairs fair.

 :nod:
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Lumber on October 16, 2018, 10:01:05
Fairs fair.

 :nod:

Ask straight forward questions: get straightforward answers!  :cowboy:
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: PuckChaser on October 16, 2018, 10:01:32
Serious question, if a biological woman with long hair identifies as a male does he have to cut his hair according to male dress regs?

What if that biological woman identifies as non-binary? Our grooming standards (written in the 80s) don't cover that.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 16, 2018, 10:05:22
"Should indigenous males cut their hair?"  Nope. Why not just let all guys grow long hair? I hear it might improve recruiting.

I did an Ex in Norway earlier this year. 

The guard manning the entrance to the base had a ponytail down his back, a goatee, maybe an earring in too.  He was also very sharp, professional and wore his uniform with pride.  His weapon was clean, his kit was clean, and his military bearing was spot on.  He had one of the best formed berets on I've seen in years and he looked like he could sleep-walk thru our FORCE test.

The ops staff, briefers, etc we worked included females with nose piercings, Officers with long hair and facial hair.  They all knew their shyte and I was impressed with their collective professionalism. 

I think they're focusing on the right things over there...
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Lumber on October 16, 2018, 10:23:37
What if that biological woman identifies as non-binary? Our grooming standards (written in the 80s) don't cover that.

Female standards.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: PuckChaser on October 16, 2018, 10:25:42
Female standards.

Because they're more broad in hair length and jewelry requirement?
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Lumber on October 16, 2018, 10:31:41
Because they're more broad in hair length and jewelry requirement?

No, because there is no option for "non-binary" in any official capacity within the CAF, and as this person continues to identify as biologically female, then we would apply those standards to her. If she wanted to follow the male standards, then she would have to self identify as a male, and accept everything that goes with it. If she wants a third option, well tfb (right now).

But yea, also, it would be a lot easier to express herself as non-binary under the female standards than the male standards.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: PuckChaser on October 16, 2018, 10:55:33
There's the problem. How does "Transphobic CAF rules force non-binary person to dress as a woman" look for a CBC headline?

We've dug ourselves into a hole where one person's freedom of expression/religion is more important than another's.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Dimsum on October 16, 2018, 10:56:39
I did an Ex in Norway earlier this year. 

The guard manning the entrance to the base had a ponytail down his back, a goatee, maybe an earring in too.  He was also very sharp, professional and wore his uniform with pride.  His weapon was clean, his kit was clean, and his military bearing was spot on.  He had one of the best formed berets on I've seen in years and he looked like he could sleep-walk thru our FORCE test.

The ops staff, briefers, etc we worked included females with nose piercings, Officers with long hair and facial hair.  They all knew their shyte and I was impressed with their collective professionalism. 

I think they're focusing on the right things over there...

Well, they can claim all of that is consistent with their Viking tradition and culture   ;)

I am interested to see what HAIRFORGEN will spell out, and the inevitable extra restrictions placed on it by local authorities based on what we're already seeing from BEARDFORGEN.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Jarnhamar on October 16, 2018, 13:29:11
So a female soldier could effectively grow a beard, shave their head and wear a deu skirt.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: cld617 on October 16, 2018, 13:36:50
I think they're focusing on the right things over there...

New policy, much achieve incentive levels on the FORCE test to be allowed to follow new policies in BEARD/HAIRFORGEN
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Blackadder1916 on October 16, 2018, 14:10:42
I did an Ex in Norway earlier this year. 

The guard manning the entrance to the base had a ponytail down his back, a goatee, maybe an earring in too.  He was also very sharp, professional and wore his uniform with pride.  His weapon was clean, his kit was clean, and his military bearing was spot on.  He had one of the best formed berets on I've seen in years and he looked like he could sleep-walk thru our FORCE test.

The ops staff, briefers, etc we worked included females with nose piercings, Officers with long hair and facial hair.  They all knew their shyte and I was impressed with their collective professionalism. 

I think they're focusing on the right things over there...

Well, they can claim all of that is consistent with their Viking tradition and culture   ;)


No. it is consistent with the treatment of conscripts in the military service of a liberal, progressive Western European country.  Many will assume that because one is a conscript (subject to mandatory military service) that they don't want to be in uniform or that they don't care about good soldiering.  My limited experience decades ago in defending the West from the Commie hordes was that most of the conscripts I came into contact with were good soldiers.  In the Norgies case, while all citizens (male and female) between the ages of 19 to 44 are subject, they are selective in whom they take.  Of the more than 60,000 who are eligible in a class group (and must go thru the first selection, in essence filling out a form) around 15% eventually report for military training (with a reported 84% of that number saying they would have volunteered if it was an option).  When nearly half of your full-time military changes each 12 to 16 months, it is fair to say the military service model is not geared to "career" soldiers but to civilians (or citizen soldiers) who look at their time in the Forsvaret as an interruption to their lives (or more likely as a brief, rewarding life experience).  Making that interlude as convenient as possible is (and was with other NATO conscript countries even 20, 30 or more years ago) a common policy.  As much as we may say that members of the CF are "citizen soldiers", the recruitment and retention model is focused on career soldiers.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: PMedMoe on October 16, 2018, 15:13:12
So a female soldier could effectively grow a beard, shave their head and wear a deu skirt.

I was always under the impression that females couldn't shave their heads.
:dunno:

That being said, I guess if one wanted (and was able) to, she could. 
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 16, 2018, 15:23:17
Well, they can claim all of that is consistent with their Viking tradition and culture   ;)



No. it is consistent with the treatment of conscripts in the military service of a liberal, progressive Western European country.  Many will assume that because one is a conscript (subject to mandatory military service) that they don't want to be in uniform or that they don't care about good soldiering.  My limited experience decades ago in defending the West from the Commie hordes was that most of the conscripts I came into contact with were good soldiers.  In the Norgies case, while all citizens (male and female) between the ages of 19 to 44 are subject, they are selective in whom they take.  Of the more than 60,000 who are eligible in a class group (and must go thru the first selection, in essence filling out a form) around 15% eventually report for military training (with a reported 84% of that number saying they would have volunteered if it was an option).  When nearly half of your full-time military changes each 12 to 16 months, it is fair to say the military service model is not geared to "career" soldiers but to civilians (or citizen soldiers) who look at their time in the Forsvaret as an interruption to their lives (or more likely as a brief, rewarding life experience).  Making that interlude as convenient as possible is (and was with other NATO conscript countries even 20, 30 or more years ago) a common policy.  As much as we may say that members of the CF are "citizen soldiers", the recruitment and retention model is focused on career soldiers.

They also have a Union, like some other Continental, conscripted, armies.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Dimsum on October 16, 2018, 15:27:02
I was always under the impression that females couldn't shave their heads.
:dunno:

That being said, I guess if one wanted (and was able) to, she could.

Maybe not down to the skin with a razor (may have started that way?) but I've worked with at least one who had a 0 or 1 guard all over and maintained it for at least a year.  She was posted out so I'm not sure if she still rocks it shaved but it wouldn't surprise me.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: dangerboy on October 16, 2018, 15:42:09
I was always under the impression that females couldn't shave their heads.
:dunno:

That being said, I guess if one wanted (and was able) to, she could.

All the dress manual says is " Shaving of all of the hair on the head is permitted." As it does not specifically state that it is for a specific gender then it means everyone can shave their head if they wish.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: PMedMoe on October 16, 2018, 16:12:48
All the dress manual says is " Shaving of all of the hair on the head is permitted." As it does not specifically state that it is for a specific gender then it means everyone can shave their head if they wish.

Well. There you go.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: daftandbarmy on October 16, 2018, 18:57:56
An example of a gender neutral approach :)
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Tcm621 on October 17, 2018, 13:45:55
I did an Ex in Norway earlier this year. 

The guard manning the entrance to the base had a ponytail down his back, a goatee, maybe an earring in too.  He was also very sharp, professional ... he looked like he could sleep-walk thru our FORCE test.

I think they're focusing on the right things over there...

That has a lot to do with it. If you are a 25 year old with a huge gut that hangs over your pants and you waddle when you walk, no about of grooming will make you look "military".
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Quirky on October 17, 2018, 15:35:07
That has a lot to do with it. If you are a 25 year old with a huge gut that hangs over your pants and you waddle when you walk, no about of grooming will make you look "military".

I find fat troops far more unprofessional and undisciplined than those who choose not to shave everyday.

If you are going to argue that if your appearance via stubble and long hair looks un-soldier like, then I’ll say being a fat wobbly slob is at the same or worse level.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: CountDC on October 17, 2018, 15:50:57
what I see is people reading only the canforgen and using their own wanted interpretation of it.  The only change this has made to the dress regs is that everyone is now allowed to grow a beard.  Guess the army finally gave up trying to make the navy be like them and decided to join the dark side.  The change is to the CANFORGEN Ref C Section 2, 5a(3)(a).

A part that everyone seems to miss is:

(d) When a beard is grown or removed, identification documents shall be replaced in accordance with security regulations.

Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Old EO Tech on October 17, 2018, 16:07:13
what I see is people reading only the canforgen and using their own wanted interpretation of it.  The only change this has made to the dress regs is that everyone is now allowed to grow a beard.  Guess the army finally gave up trying to make the navy be like them and decided to join the dark side.  The change is to the CANFORGEN Ref C Section 2, 5a(3)(a).

A part that everyone seems to miss is:

(d) When a beard is grown or removed, identification documents shall be replaced in accordance with security regulations.

Yes and the "security regulations"  say that beards are NOT a major change in appearance and no new ID is required.

Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: ballz on October 18, 2018, 09:40:17
If anyone has DWAN access, go to the ACMIS page for the dress committee. It has some excellent backgrounders on many Army dress decisions, but more specifically a glorious briefing note in favour of allowing beards. The MWO that prepared it is an absolute wordsmith.

Can you post the ACIMS link?
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: PuckChaser on October 18, 2018, 14:11:47
Can you post the ACIMS link?

Apologies for the long link, but goes right to the CADCC. Specific briefing note is "Beards in the CAF", ID# 3765.

http://acims.mil.ca/org/ArmyG1/Documents/Forms/Army%20Doc%20Set%20-%20Without%20Permissions/docsethomepage.aspx?ID=3505&FolderCTID=0x0120D5200004193D444ABED64094791871D739679000F91D39995F17964C9D224F17CC605284&List=0d60e937-b473-4d6c-bf64-3fc16f54dbf5&RootFolder=%2Forg%2FArmyG1%2FDocuments%2FCADCC (http://acims.mil.ca/org/ArmyG1/Documents/Forms/Army%20Doc%20Set%20-%20Without%20Permissions/docsethomepage.aspx?ID=3505&FolderCTID=0x0120D5200004193D444ABED64094791871D739679000F91D39995F17964C9D224F17CC605284&List=0d60e937-b473-4d6c-bf64-3fc16f54dbf5&RootFolder=%2Forg%2FArmyG1%2FDocuments%2FCADCC)
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: hattrick72 on October 24, 2018, 02:57:12
I spent some time in the dress manual 2017 version and it doesn't mention shaving within a 24 hour period. Where is that regulation? I could have swore I saw a paragraph stating you had to be clean shaven every day. Wasn't in chapter 17 of the QR&O either.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on January 07, 2019, 23:04:59
Regarding the OFP bit.  Is it your initial OFP? 

Not that I am gunning for the ZZ Top look, but I am on my 3rd trade, under this policy would I have been expected to shave off my (theoretical) glorious beard with every OT? 

Just something that came up in conversation the other day.

Does anyone have any insight as to why they decided on DP1/OFP?  Seriously what's the thought process in making someone wait until they reach their OFP.  Seems unnecessary.

Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: JesseWZ on January 08, 2019, 01:16:38
Regarding the OFP bit.  Is it your initial OFP? 

Does anyone have any insight as to why they decided on DP1/OFP?  Seriously what's the thought process in making someone wait until they reach their OFP.  Seems unnecessary.


I gotta wonder if they are still stressing the uniformity in all things through BMQ, SQ (and Navy/AF equivalents and trades training) and you get to earn your freedom (with facial hair) by passing your QL3/DP1?
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: LunchMeat on January 08, 2019, 01:41:26
I gotta wonder if they are still stressing the uniformity in all things through BMQ, SQ (and Navy/AF equivalents and trades training) and you get to earn your freedom (with facial hair) by passing your QL3/DP1?

They are.

Recruits are not permitted beards at CFLRS, Schools, Training Coys etc. As the CANFORGEN states, you must meet OFP in your trade to wear a beard.

Also, the NAVORD on Beards has not changed or been rescinded. So whatever restrictions or requirements that  utimposed, Navy pers must adhere.

Regarding the OFP bit.  Is it your initial OFP? 

Not that I am gunning for the ZZ Top look, but I am on my 3rd trade, under this policy would I have been expected to shave off my (theoretical) glorious beard with every OT? 

Just something that came up in conversation the other day.

Does anyone have any insight as to why they decided on DP1/OFP?  Seriously what's the thought process in making someone wait until they reach their OFP.  Seems unnecessary.



Technically if you OT, you no longer meet OFP in your new trade therefore, no beard for you.

Whether or not your School staff or new unit enforces that for remusters is another can of worms.

Personally, I have witnessed remusters given slack on that (pending they were already OFP and wearing a beard of course).
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on January 08, 2019, 07:45:12
I gotta wonder if they are still stressing the uniformity in all things through BMQ, SQ (and Navy/AF equivalents and trades training) and you get to earn your freedom (with facial hair) by passing your QL3/DP1?

Unless you have a religious reason to wear a beard.

Some trades don’t reach OFP for years, seems silly to restrict it to that.  Not that I’m growing a beard, I’d look like the wolf man.  I’m just trying to understand the thought process behind the OFP decision. 


Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Lumber on January 08, 2019, 08:59:17
Some trades don’t reach OFP for years, seems silly to restrict it to that.  Not that I’m growing a beard, I’d look like the wolf man.  I’m just trying to understand the thought process behind the OFP decision.

Yea, like NWO (MARS). We don't reach OFP until we are NOPQ qualified, which I reached approximately 7 years into my career (you could reach it in 3 years if you are a DEO or CEOTP officer). I assure you, all of us started sporting beards after our initial naval phase training (MARS II, which is the first course you do after Basic. It's essentially our first intro to "what is the navy"?).
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 08, 2019, 21:59:42

Also, the NAVORD on Beards has not changed or been rescinded. So whatever restrictions or requirements that  utimposed, Navy pers must adhere.


I love when the CDS issues direction that those GOFO/Senior Officers subordinate to him feel cool about ignoring.  It sets the example for all subordinate to them to use when asked 'why aren't you following this order/policy?

 ;D
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Navy_Pete on January 09, 2019, 14:11:16

Also, the NAVORD on Beards has not changed or been rescinded. So whatever restrictions or requirements that  utimposed, Navy pers must adhere.


Don't have DWAN access, but off the top of my head, the NAVFORGEN basically said, if you are at a sea going unit (or otherwise may have to wear the air pack for fire fighting) you need to be clean shaven.

CANFORGEN basically says everyone in the CAF can now grow beards to the old Navy standard (barring specific operational requirements), so there isn't any conflict.  The RCN has put down a single standard for the operational units, so pretty straightforward.  Otherwise every single ship/navy unit would have their own set of rules, and that would be kind of dumb, as well as confusing as you jump between ships.

People will argue about the validity of the logic, but even if some people get a seal with a beard, some won't be able to. Being clean shaven will never interfere with the seal, so it's erring on the side of caution. Best case, your seal fails, and you are able to safely get out of the area. Smoke spreads really quickly though, so it may take you a while, and smoke inhalation sucks.  Now you've left the rest of your team sitting around waiting for a replacement, giving the fire time to grow, and generally putting everyone at greater risk.  Worse case you run out of air in the fire zone, become a lesson to others, and have your wingers risking their lives to save you.

Fires happen on ships all the time, have been involved with a half dozen myself, and there are tonnes of near misses. The entire surface fleet is currently about 25 years old, (with some older), so even with the pretty active safety program, the failure rates leading to fires is only going to go up, so there is very good operational reasons to keep people clean shaven and trained to respond to fires. My  :2c: (based on actual fire science, performance of the BAs with beards, and first hand experience with multiple fires on ships).
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: cld617 on January 09, 2019, 14:39:00
Fires happen on ships all the time, have been involved with a half dozen myself, and there are tonnes of near misses. The entire surface fleet is currently about 25 years old, (with some older), so even with the pretty active safety program, the failure rates leading to fires is only going to go up, so there is very good operational reasons to keep people clean shaven and trained to respond to fires. My  :2c: (based on actual fire science, performance of the BAs with beards, and first hand experience with multiple fires on ships).

If the air med folks have approved CF18 pilots for wearing beards, there really isn't a safety argument to be made for not allowing beards with firefighting gear.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Dimsum on January 09, 2019, 14:54:43
If the air med folks have approved CF18 pilots for wearing beards, there really isn't a safety argument to be made for not allowing beards with firefighting gear.

That's now extended to all aircrew, past the OFP yadayada.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 09, 2019, 16:58:47
Are there any/many differences between say, the MB1 smoke mask we have on the Aurora fleet to the 'air pack' or other smoke masks in the RCN?
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Halifax Tar on January 09, 2019, 17:54:10
If the air med folks have approved CF18 pilots for wearing beards, there really isn't a safety argument to be made for not allowing beards with firefighting gear.

Thats interesting.  Sounds like a town hall question to me.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: SupersonicMax on January 09, 2019, 22:13:04
If the air med folks have approved CF18 pilots for wearing beards, there really isn't a safety argument to be made for not allowing beards with firefighting gear.

Our masks are individually fitted.  Is it the same for firefighting gear?
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Navy_Pete on January 09, 2019, 22:36:36
If the air med folks have approved CF18 pilots for wearing beards, there really isn't a safety argument to be made for not allowing beards with firefighting gear.

CF18 pilots aren't operating in a superheated toxic atmosphere, nor are they sweating their *** off carrying around a bunch of gear while climbing up and down ladders.  That's apples and oranges, and really not relevant.  You also are grabbing a generic off the shelf mask and hope you fit a medium.  Otherwise unless you get a prepositioned small or large you are SOL.

They did an informal trial when the air packs showed up with beards; they ran a few groups through and the ones that could get a seal lost it when they started moving around and sweating. They blew through their air packs in 10 minutes in the trainer; that is completely useless, and long enough to get into a spot where you don't have enough time to get to safety.  You run out of air, you either take off your mask or suffocate, and good luck if you are stuck in a fire zone full of smoke at that point.  It's compartmentalized enough that anything other than the big machinery spaces fill up really quick, so there won't be much of an air pocket left (if any).

Can some people maybe keep a beard trimmed short and keep a good seal?  Sure.  Can everyone do that reliably?  Nope.

Risk is real, and includes death (for the bearded numpty, as well as the people that have to get his *** out of there).  What is the upside to overruling a very real safety concern?

The last time the Navy got in a real shooting match was Korea, but we have fires all the time in peacetime at all levels of operational readiness.  I like having an option to have a beard, but wouldn't think of being anything but clean shaven if I was on a ship (for both my own safety and for the rest of the team).  Seems like a pretty common sense restriction to me, but you do you I guess.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on January 09, 2019, 23:10:07
Can I assume beards are permitted onboard naval vessels for religious reasons?

If so, are these individuals treated as liabilities? 

I get the impression the RCN feels that everyone with a beard is a liability in a firefighting situation.



Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Lumber on January 10, 2019, 08:13:21
Can I assume beards are permitted onboard naval vessels for religious reasons?

If so, are these individuals treated as liabilities? 

I get the impression the RCN feels that everyone with a beard is a liability in a firefighting situation.

Funny... I don't actually know the asnwer to this question. I don't recall ever having sailed without someone wearing a bear for religious reasons, but that could be because they we're always clean shaven while I was on ship with them. That being said, at least from the Wardroom side of things, I don't think I have ever sailed or served with  Sikh naval officer.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 10, 2019, 09:45:48
Don't have DWAN access, but off the top of my head, the NAVFORGEN basically said, if you are at a sea going unit (or otherwise may have to wear the air pack for fire fighting) you need to be clean shaven.

CANFORGEN basically says everyone in the CAF can now grow beards to the old Navy standard (barring specific operational requirements), so there isn't any conflict.  The RCN has put down a single standard for the operational units, so pretty straightforward.  Otherwise every single ship/navy unit would have their own set of rules, and that would be kind of dumb, as well as confusing as you jump between ships.

People will argue about the validity of the logic, but even if some people get a seal with a beard, some won't be able to. Being clean shaven will never interfere with the seal, so it's erring on the side of caution. Best case, your seal fails, and you are able to safely get out of the area. Smoke spreads really quickly though, so it may take you a while, and smoke inhalation sucks.  Now you've left the rest of your team sitting around waiting for a replacement, giving the fire time to grow, and generally putting everyone at greater risk.  Worse case you run out of air in the fire zone, become a lesson to others, and have your wingers risking their lives to save you.

Fires happen on ships all the time, have been involved with a half dozen myself, and there are tonnes of near misses. The entire surface fleet is currently about 25 years old, (with some older), so even with the pretty active safety program, the failure rates leading to fires is only going to go up, so there is very good operational reasons to keep people clean shaven and trained to respond to fires. My  :2c: (based on actual fire science, performance of the BAs with beards, and first hand experience with multiple fires on ships).

Great info for those of us who've never sailed, thanks!
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Furniture on January 10, 2019, 10:14:48
I get the impression the RCN feels that everyone with a beard is a liability in a firefighting situation.

The RCN has through experience and testing learned their lessons, and takes safety very seriously.

During the PRO fire we could barely keep up with the demand for bottles, if we burned through more bottles so LS Bloggins could sport a cool beard showing him as special individual things may have turned out differently.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: SeaKingTacco on January 10, 2019, 10:24:28
IIRC, PRO was down to 4 bottles of air at one point. It was that close.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on January 10, 2019, 10:26:58
The last time the Navy got in a real shooting match was Korea, but we have fires all the time in peacetime at all levels of operational readiness.  I like having an option to have a beard, but wouldn't think of being anything but clean shaven if I was on a ship (for both my own safety and for the rest of the team).  Seems like a pretty common sense restriction to me, but you do you I guess.

That is quite true, but we also learn from other people's mistake - so to speak.

Many of the fire fighting methods we use, smoke containment system, onboard emergency processes and fitted equipment were radically upgraded and changed first after the KOOTENAY explosion of 1969, and even further after the RN's "lessons learned" of the Falkland war.

And Navy Pete is also correct that we regularly have fires onboard and with all the stuff ship's carry that can generate toxic by-products, not having a proper fit on your mask is pretty dangerous. Look at what happened onboard HMCS CHICOUTIMI in terms of death and serious injuries due to smoke inhalation - probably just because onboard first responders or personnel requiring to take some immediate action could not don their air mask quite fast enough.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Pusser on January 10, 2019, 13:57:25
Can I assume beards are permitted onboard naval vessels for religious reasons?

If so, are these individuals treated as liabilities? 

I get the impression the RCN feels that everyone with a beard is a liability in a firefighting situation.

NAVORD 5250-2 states the following:

4.3 Religious Accommodation

While posted to a sea going billet, if a member retains or
grows their beard in respect of their religious belief, they
must be able to achieve and maintain a fit testing seal.
The current policy reflecting accommodation of beards in
the RCN is as follows:

a. The member shall modify the beard up to the
extent required to safely function using the current
mask, repeating testing as required; and

b. If a seal cannot be achieved, the CO, when
circumstances warrant (i.e. low tempo), shall
manage the Watch and Station Bill to best satisfy
the members’ accommodation as well as the unit’s
needs.

In other words, people wearing beards for religious reasons are given the opportunity to trim or modify it in order to get a seal.  If that doesn't work, the CO has to try to adjust their duties to reduce risk!  I'm a pretty liberal guy and I generally have no issues with religious accommodation, but that last bit is over the top, especially since the requirement to grow a beard in most religions is actually open to interpretation.  I also don't see why everyone isn't given the opportunity to try to get a seal.  Right now, policy says I can't even take the test unless I'm clean shaven.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 10, 2019, 14:24:34
Does this NAVORD extend to MH AirDet mbrs?  I've noticed the ones deployed recently with the VDQ are all clean shaven.  By choice, or by order?
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Furniture on January 10, 2019, 14:36:29
Does this NAVORD extend to MH AirDet mbrs?  I've noticed the ones deployed recently with the VDQ are all clean shaven.  By choice, or by order?

My understanding is it applies to anyone onboard the ship that may be involved in FF activities, so that would include the Air Det.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Navy_Pete on January 10, 2019, 14:43:34
Does this NAVORD extend to MH AirDet mbrs?  I've noticed the ones deployed recently with the VDQ are all clean shaven.  By choice, or by order?

It applies to anyone posted to the units.

The air det is all part of the damage control team, and any of them can be part of a FF team.  Because they are all up in the hangar, sometimes they are the easiest to send.  Normally you use the FFs first, but once in a while in training we have a team of pilots show up which can be fun.

Doing stuff like that, landing garbage with the rest of the crew etc are all key to being part of the ship's company, and normally there is a bunch of work at the HOD/chief level when they roll in to integrate both sides so its not an 'us vs them'.  When they roll in they make up a significant portion of the crew, and can be really poisonous to morale if there is different standards (especially as you normally lose sailors to make room, so they show up as people have picked up a higher work load).  The difference of the operational effectiveness of an AC that integrates with the ship and OPSCHED vice one that doesn't is significant, and not really something I understood until I was one of the ones working on getting them to integrate.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Lumber on January 10, 2019, 15:11:08
NAVORD 5250-2 states the following:

4.3 Religious Accommodation
In other words, people wearing beards for religious reasons are given the opportunity to trim or modify it in order to get a seal.  If that doesn't work, the CO has to try to adjust their duties to reduce risk!  I'm a pretty liberal guy and I generally have no issues with religious accommodation, but that last bit is over the top, especially since the requirement to grow a beard in most religions is actually open to interpretation.  I also don't see why everyone isn't given the opportunity to try to get a seal.  Right now, policy says I can't even take the test unless I'm clean shaven.

Yea that doesn't sit well with me, especially as a non-religious guy. I can agree with religious accommodation to basic dress and deportment, because our "traditions" of dress and deportment are just made up human inventions (just like their religion). Safety should NOT be compromised for this.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Furniture on January 10, 2019, 15:27:52
Yea that doesn't sit well with me, especially as a non-religious guy. I can agree with religious accommodation to basic dress and deportment, because our "traditions" of dress and deportment and made up human inventions (just like their religion). Safety should NOT be compromised for this.

The other side of it is, there are pers on a ship that will never put a SCBA on outside of training. When I was on PRO during the fire I never once put on bunker gear and an SCBA because my job was accounting for and supervising the civilians onboard. That fire burned a long time, and most crew cycled through but there were still people like me that though trained and capable never did engage in FF activities. It is a reasonable accommodation for a deeply held religious belief, and should be manageable with little effort.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: MARS on January 10, 2019, 15:46:20
It is a reasonable accommodation for a deeply held religious belief, and should be manageable with little effort.

Agree with your post, Furniture.

I've had to risk manage a sailor with a heart condition, who was still fit to sail but not to participate in DC.

Someone else who has a soft tissue injury while underway, also not fit for DC/bunker gear.

And several sailors, concurrently, who were not even NETP-qualified.  That one concerned me enough that, when told I was required to request a waiver from higher IOT sail with these folks who were AP'd to me, I decided not to seek the waiver, to make a point.  Low and behold, on getting wind of that, higher faked to the left and sent me a message waiving the requirement I hadn't asked to have waived.

So, another dude who can't get into bunker gear?  For a CO, its just another day that ends in Y.  At least that dude can likely do a whole bunch of other FF/DC jobs that don't require him to get dressed up, so it is likely one of the easier things I had to risk manage on any given day.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Lumber on January 10, 2019, 19:25:06
Agree with your post, Furniture.

I've had to risk manage a sailor with a heart condition, who was still fit to sail but not to participate in DC.

Someone else who has a soft tissue injury while underway, also not fit for DC/bunker gear.

And several sailors, concurrently, who were not even NETP-qualified.  That one concerned me enough that, when told I was required to request a waiver from higher IOT sail with these folks who were AP'd to me, I decided not to seek the waiver, to make a point.  Low and behold, on getting wind of that, higher faked to the left and sent me a message waiving the requirement I hadn't asked to have waived.

So, another dude who can't get into bunker gear?  For a CO, its just another day that ends in Y.  At least that dude can likely do a whole bunch of other FF/DC jobs that don't require him to get dressed up, so it is likely one of the easier things I had to risk manage on any given day.

Agree 100%, but those are medical and training issues of jo fault of the members. Just from my personal point of view, religion is a personal choice.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Pusser on January 11, 2019, 15:36:46
To add to the mix, here's a case in the US Army, where a soldier was granted a religious accommodation to wear a beard due to his practice of Heathenism (Norse Gods):

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/04/25/this-soldier-just-got-authorization-to-wear-a-beard-because-of-his-norse-pagan-faith/
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: garb811 on January 11, 2019, 16:24:39
To add to the mix, here's a case in the US Army, where a soldier was granted a religious accommodation to wear a beard due to his practice of Heathenism (Norse Gods):

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/04/25/this-soldier-just-got-authorization-to-wear-a-beard-because-of-his-norse-pagan-faith/
You didn't have to go to the US Army to find an instance of someone asking for religious accommodation as Norse Pagan, there are more than a few in the CAF.
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: Pusser on January 11, 2019, 16:33:21
You didn't have to go to the US Army to find an instance of someone asking for religious accommodation as Norse Pagan, there are more than a few in the CAF.

But have they asked for and been granted permission to grow beards?  I'm think more about the fact that beards are currently prohibited at sea by the RCN, except for religious accommodation.  Are there any heathens posted to ships who are seeking or have been granted permission to wear a beard?
Title: Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
Post by: garb811 on January 11, 2019, 16:49:48
But have they asked for and been granted permission to grow beards?  I'm think more about the fact that beards are currently prohibited at sea by the RCN, except for religious accommodation.  Are there any heathens posted to ships who are seeking or have been granted permission to wear a beard?
Can't speak to if there is anyone in the Navy but part of the accommodation as Norse Pagan entails beards and hair as that is an integral part of the religious belief.