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The Mess => Foreign Militaries => US Military => Topic started by: tomahawk6 on July 03, 2019, 00:28:16

Title: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: tomahawk6 on July 03, 2019, 00:28:16
Special Operations Chief Gallagher was found Not guilty on the major charges and guilty on a 7th charge where he posed with a dead terrorist. The penalty on that charge is probably time served.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/navy-seal-edward-gallagher-found-not-guilty-on-murder-and-attempted-murder-charges (https://www.foxnews.com/us/navy-seal-edward-gallagher-found-not-guilty-on-murder-and-attempted-murder-charges)



First edit to enable hyperlink.
Second edit to add detail to thread title
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Caesar Augustus on July 03, 2019, 15:14:53
👍👍
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: FJAG on July 03, 2019, 15:47:38
This is one of those situations where the news reports on the trial didn't help one whit in understanding the actual circumstances of the case. I have absolutely zero idea what really happened. I expect that the panel at the court martial was probably much in the same state and had little option to acquit based on a reasonable doubt.

I doubt if there will ever be a publicly available transcript of the case or investigation reports and I sure as hell wouldn't trust any first person account coming out as a book.

It's too bad. This case carries a stench about it that does not reflect well on the special forces community.

 :dunno:
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Brihard on July 03, 2019, 15:52:25
This is one of those situations where the news reports on the trial didn't help one whit in understanding the actual circumstances of the case. I have absolutely zero idea what really happened. I expect that the panel at the court martial was probably much in the same state and had little option to acquit based on a reasonable doubt.

I doubt if there will ever be a publicly available transcript of the case or investigation reports and I sure as hell wouldn't trust any first person account coming out as a book.

It's too bad. This case carries a stench about it that does not reflect well on the special forces community.

 :dunno:

Indeed. I would suspect the accused will end up separated from the military after this. If a fraction of what was given in testimony is true, even falling short of criminal conviction still leaves a lot of stink on the character of the individual and on the reputation of the unit as a whole.
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: garb811 on July 03, 2019, 15:59:29
This certainly throws a twist into things as well. I know he publicly intervened in the pre-trial custody issue, this seems to speak to him taking credit for more than that.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1146430380981067777 (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1146430380981067777)
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 03, 2019, 16:23:31
This certainly throws a twist into things as well. I know he publicly intervened in the pre-trial custody issue, this seems to speak to him taking credit for more than that.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1146430380981067777 (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1146430380981067777)

***k, that guy never shuts up does he.
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: BeyondTheNow on July 03, 2019, 16:24:06
This certainly throws a twist into things as well. I know he publicly intervened in the pre-trial custody issue, this seems to speak to him taking credit for more than that.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1146430380981067777 (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1146430380981067777)

<sigh> Possibly. But he’d probably try to take credit for the sky being blue if he could also...
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: FJAG on July 03, 2019, 17:03:48
This certainly throws a twist into things as well. I know he publicly intervened in the pre-trial custody issue, this seems to speak to him taking credit for more than that.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1146430380981067777 (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1146430380981067777)

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Brihard on July 03, 2019, 18:37:05
I’ll just leave this here.
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on July 03, 2019, 20:55:17
This is what happens when you have certain groups & individuals involved in near continuous warfare for almost 20 years without reprieve.

Eddie Gallagher enlisted in 1999, he has 8 combat deployments in 19 years, no doubt longer than six months at a time along with all the other training, exercises, etc.  He, along with the rest of JSOC have been leaned on heavily and are getting leaned on even more so as we enter this period of "we aren't at war but we really are".

I was also interested in these particular charges:

Article 112a   Wrongful Use of a Controlled Substance – Tramadol Hydrochloride
Article 112a   Unlawful Possession of a Controlled Substance – Sustanon-250

Sustanon-250 is a Testosterone Replacement Therapy, no doubt because Eddie Gallagher along with many other SOF members heavily abuse anabolic steroids so he is no longer able to produce testosterone naturally.

These guys are so juiced up I guarantee you all of them have some mental health issues just from that.  It's the unspoken drug problem in the military, police forces, etc.

Not to mention, I bet some of them have CTE from years of abuse to their bodies, explosions, gunfire, hits to the head.  A nice cocktail for this sort of thing.
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Hamish Seggie on July 03, 2019, 21:34:16
Excellent points sir. The US SOF seem to depend on prescription drugs to aid them in sleeping on long trips over oceans. I can’t recall the name of it offhand.
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: tomahawk6 on July 03, 2019, 21:44:59
Update in this case. The Chief will be reduced in rank and will retire in about 3 weeks.

https://tinyurl.com/y2v83f5p

"I feel fine. It’s all right, you know? The jury came with a verdict. I trust them," Gallagher told Fox News after his sentencing Wednesday, which stipulates his rank will be reduced to an E6 paygrade, affecting both his pay and his benefits. A jury also sentenced the SEAL to pay $2,697 per month for four months.

Prior to sentencing, Gallagher’s defense succeeded in getting the judge to reduce the potential forfeiture to 50 percent, arguing that some of Gallagher’s pre-trial confinement was tantamount to punishment based on the fact that he was denied access to a computer and some medical treatment. Even though the jury came back with a 4-month partial forfeiture of pay, it will be cut in half, resulting in 2 months partial forfeiture.
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: medicineman on July 04, 2019, 09:30:59
Excellent points sir. The US SOF seem to depend on prescription drugs to aid them in sleeping on long trips over oceans. I can’t recall the name of it offhand.

Ambien...
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 04, 2019, 10:39:19
Quote
Nearly a dozen members of Gallagher's platoon testified against him

Wonder what that's about.
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: mariomike on July 04, 2019, 11:08:11
From OP,

Quote
Jurors did find him guilty of the seventh charge, posing for a photo with a casualty, considered the least egregious of the crimes, which carries a maximum prison sentence of four months.

Unfortunately, "selfie challenges" are not unheard of here at home.
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: daftandbarmy on July 04, 2019, 12:25:10
Wonder what that's about.

I don't know any SEALs, but I do know a few people in similar organizations. I have always been impressed with how clear they seem to be about what is 'right' and 'wrong' when it comes to doing their jobs.

I assume the other guys in his unit just called it like it was. Doing the right thing is sometimes the most simple, and the most difficult, of things you can do.
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: mariomike on July 04, 2019, 12:40:00
I have always been impressed with how clear they seem to be about what is 'right' and 'wrong' when it comes to doing their jobs.

I assume the other guys in his unit just called it like it was. Doing the right thing is sometimes the most simple, and the most difficult, of things you can do.

Especially with the threat of going to Leavenworth ( or wherever they send Navy SEALs who commit perjury ).
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: CloudCover on July 04, 2019, 12:41:26
So he’s a SEAL Petty Officer version of Colonel Kurtz?   
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 04, 2019, 12:47:33
And then after the team medic was granted immunity he confessed to being the one who murdered the teenager.

Quote
Nearly a dozen members of Gallagher's platoon testified against him, revealing that nearly all the platoon members posed for photos with the dead prisoner
I wonder if the rest of the platoon are getting charged with posing with the dead body too.
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: mariomike on July 04, 2019, 12:51:20
I wonder if the rest of the platoon are getting charged with posing with the dead body too.

Sounds like they were granted immunity.

Quote
Most of the witnesses were granted immunity to protect them from being prosecuted for acts they described on the stand.
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/07/03/jury-to-decide-seals-punishment-for-posing-with-corpse/


Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 04, 2019, 15:20:23
Sounds like they were granted immunity.

Good deal.
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Hamish Seggie on July 04, 2019, 18:57:24
Ambien...

Thank you.
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: tomahawk6 on July 04, 2019, 21:09:25
I think its time for Special Operations personnel to have more oversight and to be more accountable for their conduct.
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Hamish Seggie on July 04, 2019, 22:34:03
I think its time for Special Operations personnel to have more oversight and to be more accountable for their conduct.
Limiting the number of missions they go on would be a start.
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Remius on July 04, 2019, 22:35:41
Limiting the number of missions they go on would be a start.


Maybe oversight can help with that?   :dunno:
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Hamish Seggie on July 04, 2019, 22:42:58

Maybe oversight can help with that?   :dunno:

The problem is who will provide that oversight? A SOF HQ or some other HQ?
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: tomahawk6 on July 05, 2019, 01:17:06
Its the job of each service to provide oversight. meaning that officers in the chain of command from the team level on up. The culture of the SEAL units is a problem. An example is the case where SOF operators killed a Green beret. through the years other SOF abuses have surfaced and it usually involved money. They are some of America's best but need adult leadership IMO.
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: mariomike on July 05, 2019, 17:11:34
In today's news,

Quote
3 hrs ago
 
The San Diego Union-Tribune

SEAL commander charged in war crime cover-up heading to trial in September
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/seal-commander-charged-in-war-crime-cover-up-heading-to-trial-in-september/ar-AADUgVd?ocid=ientp
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: tomahawk6 on July 05, 2019, 17:51:09
Reminds me of the CF's experience in Somalia which resulted in the break up of a parachute regiment.
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 05, 2019, 18:09:58
Which part of this reminds you of Somalia?
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: FJAG on July 05, 2019, 18:13:35
Its the job of each service to provide oversight. meaning that officers in the chain of command from the team level on up. The culture of the SEAL units is a problem. An example is the case where SOF operators killed a Green beret. through the years other SOF abuses have surfaced and it usually involved money. They are some of America's best but need adult leadership IMO.

It's a real difficult question, that's for sure.

I've always felt that oversight agencies that parallel the chain of command are the equivalent of political commissars in the old soviet style of military. Maintaining standards and discipline is--and should be--a function of the chain of command and when that doesn't work you fire the weak links and replace them with better leaders.

The problem comes with units that have very tight relationships and an ethos of secrecy where outsiders are seen as, well, outsiders. Sometimes maintaining discipline runs counter to maintaining esprit de corps, although it ought never to.

I'm not sure to what extent US (or any) SOF units have "internal affairs" type of investigators/agencies (over and above the usual NCIS, CID or USAFOSI folks) that are operators/former operators and a part of the organization's staff--but not the actual leadership chain of command. That might be an answer (although perhaps a flirtation with the commissar concept)

Reminds me of the CF's experience in Somalia which resulted in the break up of a parachute regiment.

While Somalia opened up the CAR to in-depth examination, it was the hazing videos that were the straws that broke the camel's back; that and the fact that during a period of ever tightening financial restraint it was hard to find and justify a role for the CAR as constituted.

In some ways the Regiment's demise eventually paved the way to the formation of the much better structured and organized Canadian Special Operations Forces Command.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: tomahawk6 on July 05, 2019, 18:13:42
The culture of special units that got out of hand.
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: tomahawk6 on July 05, 2019, 18:18:04
Soldiers should use the IG if they see violations of the UJMJ. Another avenue would be to complain to their Congressman. In the CF that would be the ombudsman right ?
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Hamish Seggie on July 05, 2019, 22:20:20
The culture of special units that got out of hand.

And certainly some of that was evident within the CAR.
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: daftandbarmy on July 07, 2019, 12:13:01

Maybe oversight can help with that?   :dunno:

Or just good old fashioned ‘proper leadership’.
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: FJAG on September 15, 2019, 11:13:33
In the "You can't make this crap up" category:

Quote
Navy SEAL Eddie Gallagher sues his ex-lawyers, military nonprofit
By Melissa Leon | Fox News

Decorated Navy SEAL Eddie Gallagher, who was acquitted of murder in a war crimes trial this past July, has sued two of his former lawyers and a military legal defense nonprofit, according to court documents filed in Texas Friday.

Attorneys Colby Vokey and Phillip Stackhouse and the United American Patriots (UAP) are named in the complaint brought by Gallagher, who alleges that Vokey and UAP orchestrated a “money-making scheme” and purposely delayed his case.


According to the filing, they “allowed [Gallagher] to languish in pre-trial confinement for several months while engaging in delay tactics and needlessly running up the legal bills.” Gallagher was kept in pre-trial confinement at Naval Consolidated Brig Miramar in San Diego for more than seven months.

...

Vokey filed a lawsuit against Gallagher last month demanding $1 million in alleged unpaid legal fees, according to the complaint. Gallagher is seeking a declaratory judgment stating he doesn’t owe any legal fees and that if fees should be rendered, then UAP should pay them – not Gallagher.

...

https://www.foxnews.com/us/eddie-gallagher-navy-seal-sues-ex-lawyers-military-nonprofit-united-american-patriots (https://www.foxnews.com/us/eddie-gallagher-navy-seal-sues-ex-lawyers-military-nonprofit-united-american-patriots)

Waiting for the book(s) to come out.  :facepalm:

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: tomahawk6 on September 15, 2019, 15:21:20
Didnt he have a gofundme page ?Navy SEALS Fund collected over a half million so I would expect some sort of settlement. It doesnt look good suing your attorneys who helped to get you free.

https://navy-seals-fund.networkforgood.com/projects/60396-justice-for-eddie-gallagher-support-fund
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: FJAG on September 15, 2019, 16:27:53
Didnt he have a gofundme page ?Navy SEALS Fund collected over a half million so I would expect some sort of settlement. It doesnt look good suing your attorneys who helped to get you free.

https://navy-seals-fund.networkforgood.com/projects/60396-justice-for-eddie-gallagher-support-fund

The two lawyers were terminated or quit before the end of the case.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: milnews.ca on November 15, 2019, 20:50:26
The latest (https://taskandpurpose.com/trump-restores-gallagher-rank):
Quote
Navy SEAL Eddie Gallagher will retire as a chief petty officer now that President Donald Trump has restored his rank.

"Before the prosecution of Special Warfare Operator First Class Edward Gallagher, he had been selected for promotion to Senior Chief, awarded a Bronze Star with a "V" for valor, and assigned to an important position in the Navy as an instructor," a White House statement said.

"Though ultimately acquitted on all of the most serious charges, he was stripped of these honors as he awaited his trial and its outcome. Given his service to our Nation, a promotion back to the rank and pay grade of Chief Petty Officer is justified."

(...)

 In March, Trump tweeted that Gallagher would soon be moved to a less restrictive environment, prompting the Navy to release Gallagher from the brig. Gallagher A military judge decided in May to end Gallagher's pretrial restriction at Naval Medical Center San Diego.

Gallagher's legal team also included Trump's personal attorney Mark Mukasey and longtime Trump associate Bernard Kerik, the former police commissioner for New York City.

When Gallagher was acquitted for murder in July, Trump tweeted his congratulations to the SEAL, adding, "Glad I could help!"

"Here's what the president did: He actually gave me the opportunity to prepare a defense," Gallagher's attorney Tim Parlatore told Task & Purpose at the time. "When he decided to release Eddie from the brig … it's such an important factor to being able to prepare a defense."

But the president was not finished. Trump ordered top Navy officials to rescind Navy Achievement Medals that had been awarded to the prosecutors in the Gallagher case ...
More @ link
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: 211RadOp on November 22, 2019, 14:22:53
Now Trump is getting into his review to see if he should remain a SEAL.

Quote
Trump says he won't allow U.S. Navy to punish SEAL who posed with corpse

Published Thursday, November 21, 2019 9:51AM EST 
Last Updated Thursday, November 21, 2019 7:24PM EST 


WASHINGTON -- President Donald Trump insisted Thursday that the Navy "will NOT be taking away Warfighter and Navy Seal Eddie Gallagher's Trident Pin," inserting himself into an ongoing legal review of the sailor's ability to hold onto the pin that designates him a SEAL.

The Navy on Wednesday notified Chief Petty Officer Edward Gallagher that he will face a review early next month to determine if he should remain on the elite force.

Gallagher was acquitted of a murder charge in the stabbing death of an Islamic State militant captive, but a military jury convicted him of posing with the corpse while in Iraq in 2017. He was then demoted to chief.
His lawyers have accused the Navy of trying to remove the SEAL designation in retaliation for Trump's decision last week to restore Gallagher's rank.

Rear Adm. Charlie Brown, a Navy spokesman, responded Thursday: "The Navy follows the lawful orders of the President. We will do so in case of an order to stop the administrative review of SOC Gallagher's professional qualification. We are aware of the President's tweet and we are awaiting further guidance."

Trump tweeted Thursday, "This case was handled very badly from the beginning" and he urged those involved to "Get back to business!"

Gallagher filed a complaint with the inspector general accusing a rear admiral of insubordination for defying Trump's actions. Rear Adm. Collin Green is the Naval Special Warfare commander.

"How can Admiral Green credibly preach about preserving good order and discipline while publicly flouting the orders of the commander in chief?" attorney Timothy Parlatore said.

Two U.S. officials familiar with the case but not authorized to speak publicly said Wednesday that discussions about convening a review board began shortly after Gallagher's conviction in July. They said the decision was not in reaction to Trump's decision to restore Gallagher's rank.

It's unclear what effect Trump's tweet could have on the process and whether he can actually block the review from taking place or overturn any decision made.

Under the review procedure, a five-person board will convene Dec. 2 behind closed doors. It will include one SEAL officer and four senior enlisted SEALs, according to the two U.S. officials. Gallagher can appear once before the board on Dec. 4 but without his lawyers. He can dispute the evidence given to the board that will include his conviction and call witnesses.

Gallagher can appeal any final decision that will be made by the Naval Personnel Board, which will take into account Green's input and the board's recommendations.

Trump's initial order in Gallagher only referred to restoring his rank, but it did not explicitly pardon the SEAL for any wrongdoing.

Green also notified three SEAL officers who oversaw Gallagher during the deployment -- Lt. Cmdr. Robert Breisch, Lt. Jacob Portier and Lt. Thomas MacNeil -- that they are also being reviewed, according to the officials.

Removing their Trident pins means they will no longer be SEALs but could remain in the Navy.

The Navy has revoked 154 Trident pins since 2011.

The Navy will NOT be taking away Warfighter and Navy Seal Eddie Gallagher’s Trident Pin. This case was handled very badly from the beginning. Get back to business!
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 21, 2019

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/trump-says-he-won-t-allow-u-s-navy-to-punish-seal-who-posed-with-corpse-1.4695863 (https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/trump-says-he-won-t-allow-u-s-navy-to-punish-seal-who-posed-with-corpse-1.4695863)
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: tomahawk6 on November 22, 2019, 15:42:35
Rather than let this issue drop Radm Green thought he had an end around the President. Now Trump has blocked this move and Radm Green might find his own future in jeopardy.You just got to know when to foldem Admiral.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: milnews.ca on November 22, 2019, 16:13:31
Rather than let this issue drop Radm Green thought he had an end around the President. Now Trump has blocked this move and Radm Green might find his own future in jeopardy.You just got to know when to foldem Admiral.
Given this quote from the Navy spokesperson:
Quote
... "The Navy follows the lawful orders of the President. We will do so in case of an order to stop the administrative review of SOC Gallagher's professional qualification. We are aware of the President's tweet and we are awaiting further guidance." ...
... is a Tweet (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1197507542726909952) (attached) an "order"?  It'll be interesting to see how this unfolds ...
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: mariomike on November 22, 2019, 16:37:14
:... is a Tweet (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1197507542726909952) (attached) an "order"? 

Maybe if it says, "I hereby order..." ?,
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNTW-hrNTsSiqVQ3SRBlPmtY-62Uiw%3A1574454969827&ei=uUbYXZ6JMpCOsQXCjZagAg&q=%22i+hereby+order%22+trump+conway&oq=%22i+hereby+order%22+trump+conway&gs_l=psy-ab.3...10515.12602..13749...0.0..0.419.1375.0j4j1j0j1......0....1..gws-wiz.yye428vwQMg&ved=0ahUKEwjeycPp1f7lAhUQR6wKHcKGBSQQ4dUDCAo&uact=5#spf=1574454985476
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Journeyman on November 23, 2019, 11:09:25
Posted without additional comment.


John Ismay,
"Edward Gallagher, the SEALs, and Why the Trident Pin Matters.
The Navy SEAL insignia is tough to earn and, except when the White House intervenes, easy to lose."
NY Times

LINK (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/21/us/navy-seal-trident-insignia.html)

Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 23, 2019, 12:09:11
Rather than let this issue drop Radm Green thought he had an end around the President. Now Trump has blocked this move and Radm Green might find his own future in jeopardy.You just got to know when to foldem Admiral.

Or resign on a point of principle which, as we know, is an infinitesimally small possibility these days....
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Brihard on November 23, 2019, 12:21:19
Rather than let this issue drop Radm Green thought he had an end around the President. Now Trump has blocked this move and Radm Green might find his own future in jeopardy.You just got to know when to foldem Admiral.

Integrity isn’t always comfortable and sometimes has consequences. The Navy’s reasons for aiming to strip Gallagher of his trident are professional and disciplinary. He was convicted of an offense that casts his ethics and professionalism under a dark cloud. The navy is right to use its internal mechanisms to review his status as a SEAL.

The president, conversely, has no legitimacy or credibility in intervening in this. A repeat draft dodger has no business saying who is deserving of being recognized as a SEAL, or bearing the honour that that title conveys. His motivations in this are 100% political, and it compromises the military’s ability to maintain order and discipline.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Baden Guy on November 23, 2019, 14:57:39
"Navy Is Said to Proceed With Disciplinary Plans Against Edward Gallagher
Top military officials threatened to resign or be fired if their plans to remove Chief Gallagher from the SEALs were halted by President Trump, administration officials said."

The Navy is proceeding with the disciplinary plans against the commando, Chief Petty Officer Edward Gallagher, who counts Mr. Trump as one of his most vocal supporters. After reversing a demotion in recent days, the president suggested on Thursday that he would intervene again in the case, saying that the sailor should remain in the unit.

The threats by the Navy secretary, Richard V. Spencer, and the commander, Rear Adm. Collin Green, are a rare instance of pushback against Mr. Trump from members of the Defense Department. Defense Secretary Mark T. Esper and Gen. Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, scrambled to come up with a face-saving compromise this past week in the hope that Mr. Trump could be persuaded to change his mind.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/23/us/politics/navy-discipline-edward-gallagher.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: tomahawk6 on November 23, 2019, 20:15:30
The Navy Secretary claims not to have threatened to resign. Trump is Commander in Chief so he sits astride the Defense Department. Now the absurd notion that Trump has no right to intervene because he may have been a draft dodger like Bill Clinton.

 The Constitution (Article II, section 2) specifies that “The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several states, when called into the actual Service of the United States.”
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Brihard on November 23, 2019, 20:20:41
The Navy Secretary claims not to have threatened to resign. Trump is Commander in Chief so he sits astride the Defense Department. Now the absurd notion that Trump has no right to intervene because he may have been a draft dodger like Bill Clinton.

 The Constitution (Article II, section 2) specifies that “The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several states, when called into the actual Service of the United States.”

I did not say he has “no right” to intervene. As commander in chief I recognize that the law empowers him in all sorts of ways. What I said is that he has “no legitimacy or credibility”, specifically on the question of who is deserving of the SEAL trident. There are a number of people in the navy who are eminently qualified to make that assessment. He is the polar opposite. It’s something no politician or civilian should meddle in. He is as grossly unqualified to make that call as he is to practice medicine, practice law, teach CQB, or land the space shuttle.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: tomahawk6 on November 24, 2019, 19:04:56
The SEC DEf fires Navy Secretary Spencer.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2019/11/24/pentagon-chief-asks-navy-secretarys-resignation-over-private-proposal-navy-seals-case/
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: FJAG on November 24, 2019, 21:53:54
Spencer's resignation letter is here:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/24/politics/read-navy-secretary-richard-spencer-resignation-letter/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/24/politics/read-navy-secretary-richard-spencer-resignation-letter/index.html)

Particularly noteworthy is this part:

Quote
...
As Secretary of the Navy, one the most important responsibilities I have to our people is to maintain
good order and discipline throughout the ranks. I regard this as deadly serious business. The lives of our
Sailors. Marines and civilian teammates quite literally depend on the professional execution of our many
missions. and they also depend on the ongoing faith and support of the people we serve and the allies we serve
alongside.

The rule of law is what sets us apart from our adversaries. Good order and discipline is what has
enabled our victory against foreign tyranny time and again, from Captain Lawrence's famous order "Don't
Give up the Ship", to the discipline and determination that propelled our fag to the highest point on lwo Jima.
The Constitution, and the Uniform Code of Military Justice, are the shields that set us apart, and the beacons
that protect us all. Through my Title Ten Authority, I have strived to ensure our proceedings are fair,
transparent and consistent, from the newest recruit to the Flag and General Officer level.

Unfortunately it has become apparent that in this respect, I no longer share the same understanding
with the Commander in Chief who appointed me, in regards to the key principle of good order and discipline. I
cannot in good conscience obey an order that I believe violates the sacred oath I took in the presence of my
family, my flag and my faith to support and defend the Constitution of the United States.

...

Equally disturbing is that the Secretary of Defence Esper has decided that Gallagher will keep his SEAL status:

Quote
Esper decided Gallagher would now keep his status because he "has little confidence that Gallagher would get a fair shake now from the Navy," the official told CNN.

A damning statement to come from the top. Looks like Esper clearly knows whose butt to keep his head up.

Let the spin masters begin their craft.

 :stirpot:
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Brihard on November 24, 2019, 21:59:37
Spencer's resignation letter is here:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/24/politics/read-navy-secretary-richard-spencer-resignation-letter/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/24/politics/read-navy-secretary-richard-spencer-resignation-letter/index.html)

Particularly noteworthy is this part:

Equally disturbing is that the Secretary of Defence Esper has decided that Gallagher will keep his SEAL status:

A damning statement to come from the top. Looks like Esper clearly knows whose butt to keep his head up.

Let the spin masters begin their craft.

 :stirpot:

Spencer has my respect for standing on principle on this one. Now let’s see someone from the army side have the stones to stand up to POTUS over him pardoning one convicted war criminal, and stopping another murder trial from going forward. The military stands to suffer a lot of damage from those decisions on his part.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Blackadder1916 on November 24, 2019, 22:40:49

Spencer has my respect for standing on principle on this one. . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_V._Spencer
Quote
. . .  Spencer served in the U.S. Marine Corps from 1976 to 1981 as a Marine Aviator . . .

Once a Marine, always a Marine.  Semper Fi.

Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Journeyman on November 28, 2019, 11:30:06
If anyone wants some background reading on the Gallagher issue, there's a relevant thesis (https://calhoun.nps.edu/bitstream/handle/10945/47927/15Dec_Crowell_Forrest.pdf) from the US Naval Postgraduate School, "SEALs Gone Wild: Publicity, Fame, and the Loss of the Quiet Professional."

It's from 2015, which suggests this isn't a new, unknown crisis.

Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Blackadder1916 on November 28, 2019, 12:05:26
If anyone wants some background reading on the Gallagher issue, there's a relevant thesis (https://calhoun.nps.edu/bitstream/handle/10945/47927/15Dec_Crowell_Forrest.pdf) from the US Naval Postgraduate School, "SEALs Gone Wild: Publicity, Fame, and the Loss of the Quiet Professional."

It's from 2015, which suggests this isn't a new, unknown crisis.

I found the last line in the thesis most telling . . . "the quickest way to lose the respect of the American people is to become too enthralled with ourselves" .
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: milnews.ca on November 28, 2019, 17:08:17
In further developments, this from the USN info-machine (https://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=111549) ...
Quote
As Acting Secretary of the Navy, I have directed the Chief of Naval Operations to terminate the Trident Reviews for three Naval Special Warfare officers. Given the unique circumstances of these three remaining cases, I have determined that any failures in conduct, performance, judgment or professionalism exhibited by these officers be addressed through other administrative measures as appropriate, such as letters of instruction or performance observations on their officer fitness reports.

The United States Navy, and the Naval Special Warfare Community specifically, have dangerous and important work to do. In my judgment, neither deserves the continued distraction and negative attention that recent events have evoked. Our special operators are part of a unique fighting force that has been at war for nearly 20 years. We ask them to meet a very high standard of competence in the use of deadly force, matched by an equally high standard for ethical behavior in combat. This expectation is no higher than the standard our special warriors have set for themselves. The SEAL ethos states this standard quite clearly:

“I serve with honor on and off the battlefield. The ability to control my emotions and my actions, regardless of circumstance, sets me apart from other men. Uncompromising integrity is my standard. My character and honor are steadfast. My word is my bond.”

My decision in these three specific cases should not be interpreted in any way as diminishing this ethos or our nation’s expectations that it be fulfilled. Navy uniformed leaders have my full confidence that they will continue to address challenging cultural issues within the Naval Special Warfare community, instill good order and discipline and enforce the very highest professional standards we expect from every member of that community. These are standards that scores of brave Sailors have given their lives to establish and preserve. It is our obligation to honor their sacrifice, and the values of our nation, in everything we do in peace, in crisis, but most especially in war. We can, we must, and we will get this right.

                                                                                       THOMAS B. MODLY

                                                                                       Secretary of the Navy (Acting)
More from Stars & Stripes (https://www.stripes.com/news/navy/three-navy-seal-officers-will-not-face-review-board-acting-navy-secretary-says-1.609032):
Quote
Three Navy SEAL officers will not face a peer-review board, the Navy announced Wednesday, days after Chief Petty Officer Eddie Gallagher had his own review board halted by the defense secretary.

Acting Navy Secretary Thomas Modly directed the Chief of Naval Operations, Adm. Michael Gilday, to stop the “Trident reviews,” according to a statement from Modly. The three SEALs were not named in the statement, but Lt. Cmdr. Robert Breisch, Lt. Jacob Portier and Lt. Thomas MacNeil, who had supervised Gallagher during his deployment to Iraq, were informed last week by Rear Adm. Collin Green, the Naval Special Warfare commander, that they would face a review board in early December.

“Given the unique circumstances of these three remaining cases, I have determined that any failures in conduct, performance, judgment, or professionalism exhibited by these officers be addressed through other administrative measures as appropriate, such as letters of instruction or performance observations on their officer fitness reports,” Modly said in the statement ...
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: FJAG on November 28, 2019, 17:36:53
That's a well phrased response in light of the ridiculous situation Trump has created for his chain of command.

One can only hope that the military can continue to weather a commander in chief who uses "his warfighters" as a political tool.

Quote
The concerns about the President's war crimes interventions come on top of long-simmering frustrations at the Pentagon.

Altogether, the strain on the military is palpable, said Mark Hertling, a former commanding general of the US Army in Europe.
"It may not break, but it sure the hell is being bent by this and increasingly becoming brittle," said Hertling, a CNN military analyst. "Senior leaders ... if they're confused about what the missions are, what the strategy is, they have to put on a poker face. And sometimes the things they're being asked to do are impossible and go against all of their military experience and knowledge."

Pentagon sources describe meetings in which senior officials have struggled with what they described as the President's mercurial moods, lack of focus, impulsive decision-making and resistance to information that doesn't fit his views.

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has described Trump's approach by saying that his "experience with the President is that he makes decisions and then absorbs data and facts."

Military officials have tried to navigate Trump's decisions-first, facts-later approach since he took office, but they tell CNN they are more uneasy than ever about his behavior given impeachment inquiry pressures and the looming 2020 campaign.

They express discomfort about Trump's politicization of the military and his attacks on individual servicemembers, such as Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, the NSC official who testified before the House impeachment inquiry. After Trump targeted Vindman, the decorated war veteran reached out to the Army about his family's safety.

Trump's attacks led Gen. Joseph Dunford, who was just hours before retiring from his own 40-year career, to take the extraordinary step of opposing the President to defend Vindman, who had served on his staff.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/27/politics/pentagon-concern-trump-decision-making/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/27/politics/pentagon-concern-trump-decision-making/index.html)

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: tomahawk6 on November 28, 2019, 19:15:46
If I was running DoD I would be retiring as many generals and Colonels as I could and handing out pink slips to the civilians.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: QV on November 28, 2019, 19:18:57
If I was running DoD I would be retiring as many generals and Colonels as I could and handing out pink slips to the civilians.

Something like Leslie's Transformation Report.   
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: CloudCover on November 28, 2019, 19:21:53
The orderly US military command structure is the biggest threat to a disruptive Trump after it became clear to him their loyalty is not unquestioning fealty. Undermining good order and discipline weakens common purpose instilled by unified command. This only serves to benefit Trump. Does anyone think he’s bright enough to have figured that out in his own ...

The decision noted above that was made by Acting Secretary Modly somewhat sideswipes Trumps ability to torque the issue, at least temporarily.  Query whether the leadership of the US armed forces themselves are sliding into administrative and potentially political insurgency mode. He’s already interfered with rule of (military) law and perverted the course of justice in other ways. He’s seen full ranking military officers publicly object to his conduct and testify about it. On the other hand, is there some reason to suspect he may have at least tacit or even firm support from a good chunk of the rank and file? He’s drawing strength from somewhere to push these buttons. It’s ugly, scary and sad.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: tomahawk6 on November 28, 2019, 19:32:30
Until those officers who came up under Obama are retired then you will continue to see LTC Vindmans.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: MrWhyt on November 28, 2019, 19:54:15
Until those officers who came up under Obama are retired then you will continue to see LTC Vindmans.
so you want to purge the army of brave and honorable officers who speak up and risk their careers when thy see something wrong?
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: milnews.ca on November 28, 2019, 20:45:57
Until those officers who came up under Obama are retired then you will continue to see LTC Vindmans.
Just remember - if someone supports a political purge of the military (think USSR, North Korea or China as examples of places where this has happened) when one's fave party is in power, can someone then complain if a party they don't like does the same thing?  Everybody OK if Obama or Clinton had, say, said a SEAL in a similar situation MUST lose the Trident without due process?  It's aaaaaaall great as long as your team does it, but let the other team try it ... #GoodForTheGooseGoodForTheGander
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Good2Golf on November 28, 2019, 22:50:59
Waiting for William Calley to be pardoned...
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: GAP on November 28, 2019, 23:32:41
Waiting for William Calley to be pardoned...

I think he is already out of jail....
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: FJAG on November 28, 2019, 23:52:50
I think he is already out of jail....

Long ago. His sentence was reduced to 10 years (I think) and he was paroled with a third of his sentence served. That was the end of things.

He still carries a conviction.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: mariomike on November 29, 2019, 00:09:42
Until those officers who came up under Obama are retired then you will continue to see LTC Vindmans.

so you want to purge the army of brave and honorable officers who speak up and risk their careers when thy see something wrong?

As a result of his testimony, Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, a Purple Heart recipient, has to put up with this,
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/19/politics/vindman-trump-attack-army-safety/index.html
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Eaglelord17 on November 29, 2019, 07:10:22
Until those officers who came up under Obama are retired then you will continue to see LTC Vindmans.

So are you just pretending those officers didn't spend decades in the military well before Obama ever became President? Are you pretending they haven't earned their positions on merit instead claiming its political patronage? Because even if political patronage is a small part of it, they still had to earn the ability to get to the point to even be considered.

You guys really need to make your military impartial, which is what it was until Trump started putting his nose in stuff which as Commander and Chief wasn't his problem. The Navy was doing its job, punishing a criminal, and Trump stepped in and perverted the military justice system. Its disgraceful. The fact that an individual who dodged military service has the audacity to interfere is disgusting and if you support that, you really should look at what you stand for as those are the actions of a tyrant, not a fair and democratic process like the one he subverted.



Staff edit: site politics thread policies
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: exCAFguy on November 29, 2019, 10:22:53
As a result of his testimony, Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, a Purple Heart recipient, has to put up with this,
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/19/politics/vindman-trump-attack-army-safety/index.html

Put up with what?  The LTC made claims he fears for his family, but never elaborated as to how they are at risk and the Army concluded at the moment there appears to be no imminent threat to anyone.

So what exactly is he putting up with?  Career fallout maybe?  Sure...but that’s to be expected when you challenge your political masters, VAdm Norman comes to mind here.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Journeyman on November 29, 2019, 10:39:01
If anyone wants some background reading on the Gallagher issue ….
This is followed-up with an insightful War on the Rocks article, (https://warontherocks.com/2019/11/disgraceful-pardons-dishonoring-our-honorable/) "Disgraceful Pardons: Dishonoring Our Honorable."


Two key takeaways (for me anyway):

1.  That the president announced action on all three cases at the same time is particularly concerning, even though the cases involved different issues, as it seems designed to send a broader message about war crimes and military professionalism in general.

2.  There are no political “sides” here to rally around or to be used to score political points over. Rather, we should rally around justice and the rule of law.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: mariomike on November 29, 2019, 10:58:45
Until those officers who came up under Obama are retired then you will continue to see LTC Vindmans.

The LTC made claims he fears for his family, but never elaborated as to how they are at risk and the Army concluded at the moment there appears to be no imminent threat to anyone.

US politics aside, good to know the Army takes the security of his family seriously.
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNR4T1utfNwm7C2vDogFUxGWH6GQrw%3A1575039638159&ei=ljLhXYWeCa-Mggf0gLrwCA&q=vindman+family+protection&oq=vindman+family+protection&gs_l=psy-ab.12...7037.8305..9783...0.0..0.252.1019.1j6j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......35i39j35i304i39.Mx3B2l480YA&ved=0ahUKEwiFwY7x14_mAhUvhuAKHXSADo4Q4dUDCAo#spf=1575039651859
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: exCAFguy on November 29, 2019, 11:26:32
US politics aside, good to know the Army takes the security of his family seriously.
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNR4T1utfNwm7C2vDogFUxGWH6GQrw%3A1575039638159&ei=ljLhXYWeCa-Mggf0gLrwCA&q=vindman+family+protection&oq=vindman+family+protection&gs_l=psy-ab.12...7037.8305..9783...0.0..0.252.1019.1j6j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......35i39j35i304i39.Mx3B2l480YA&ved=0ahUKEwiFwY7x14_mAhUvhuAKHXSADo4Q4dUDCAo#spf=1575039651859

Again, nowhere has the LCol or Army elaborated on how there is a threat and the Army has determined there is nothing credible at this point.  Every article listed there simply states the Army is prepared to post him if he or his family is threatened.

Every article on the matter I’ve read here is sensational nonsense.  This LCol has said he fears for his safety, but has never elaborated as to how.  The army determined there’s nothing credible but are prepared to post him if need be.  The press is writing this up like Trump has dispatched hit squads after the guy......it’s pretty ridiculous.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: QV on November 29, 2019, 12:18:35
I don't think anyone on here has the details of each case along with the legal analysis and recommendations POTUS had prior to making his decision.  I won't pretend to know anything about these cases, but I may consider MSM reporting to form my opinion on whether I am accepting of POTUS's decision here... I'm sure the MSM are reporting nothing but the hard, unbiased facts in all these cases like every instance involving POTUS.     

After all, it's been proven by Mueller, Schiff et al that POTUS is a Russian asset doing Putin's bidding and destroying democracy, using the Ukraine to enrich his family and target honest hard working American politicians-for-life, while bringing about nuclear Armageddon, destroying the last remnants of a fragile yet angelic military hierarchy, reviving racism as his sole domestic policy in an effort to win votes, ruining woman's and LGQBT rights for a generation, and wrecking the US and world economic structure.  And on and on...

So, yes, I suppose if you believe all of that then POTUS most certainly did the wrong thing here as well.           
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Brihard on November 29, 2019, 13:32:04
I don't think anyone on here has the details of each case along with the legal analysis and recommendations POTUS had prior to making his decision.  I won't pretend to know anything about these cases, but I may consider MSM reporting to form my opinion on whether I am accepting of POTUS's decision here... I'm sure the MSM are reporting nothing but the hard, unbiased facts in all these cases like every instance involving POTUS.     

After all, it's been proven by Mueller, Schiff et al that POTUS is a Russian asset doing Putin's bidding and destroying democracy, using the Ukraine to enrich his family and target honest hard working American politicians-for-life, while bringing about nuclear Armageddon, destroying the last remnants of a fragile yet angelic military hierarchy, reviving racism as his sole domestic policy in an effort to win votes, ruining woman's and LGQBT rights for a generation, and wrecking the US and world economic structure.  And on and on...

So, yes, I suppose if you believe all of that then POTUS most certainly did the wrong thing here as well.           

This is one of the most ridiculous rants I’ve seen posted here. While I often disagree with you, I seldom find your posts disappointing.

POTUS pardoned one man convicted in a court of law of posing for photos with a corpse. There’s no credible question as to the factual veracity of that. He then interfered with internal mechanisms that are designed to review a soldier’s career status after a conviction. He pardoned a soldier literally convicted of murder. There is again no credible question as the to factual veracity of that conviction. Finally he has used executive authority to stop another murder trial going forward. A soldier charged with murder will NOT see court and will quite literally get away with anything he may have been culpable of. The facts of that alleged murder will NOT get to be tried in court, where they ought to be. And given POTUS’ notorious disinclination to spend much time reading or digesting facts before making political decisions, I find your ‘well we don’t know what he knew...’ particularly convincing. There is no shortage of public record in all of these cases, two of which had already resulted in convictions in court.

Tell me, when else recently has the subject come up of a head of government using his authority to stop a prosecution going forward, allegedly for political purposes? What was your opinion then?

Trump is legally empowered to do these things, and unfortunately has chosen to wield that power in these cases. There’s a rare degree of consensus from legal and military experts that this is a wrong thing to do, due to the ethical and legal ramifications, and the way it compromises good order and discipline in the military institution.

All of the other stuff you bring up is frankly no more than partisan whining. It certainly does not bear relevance on the merits of Trump’s actions in the case of the two criminal convictions and the pending court martial. The rest of the circus, legal and political, that surrounds him is not automatically pertinent to each decision made and action taken. Nor does it render us unable to examine said actions and point out the obvious and significant ethical and legal problems that they present senior military leadership.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Good2Golf on November 29, 2019, 13:45:09
Not media, but the publicly available results of Gallagher’s court martial which found him guilty of desecrating and posing with the corpse of an enemy combatant, which is counter both to the US Code of Service Discipline and the Law of Armed Conflict.  POTUS’s exoneration of Gallagher’s conduct indicates that such unlawful conduct is actually okay.  No media analysis used, just One of the transmission mediums used to distribute the court martial findings. POTUS hasn’t even disputed the facts from the court martial, rather only used his executive authority to counter the administrative action of demotion taken against Gallagher by the Navy. 

Regards
G2G

Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Baden Guy on November 29, 2019, 14:22:13
Not media, but the public ally available results of Gallagher’s court martial which found him guilty of desecrating and posing with the corpse of an enemy combatant, which is counter both to the US Code of Service Discipline and the Law of Armed Conflict.  POTUS’s exoneration of Gallagher’s conduct indicates that such unlawful conduct is actually okay.  No media analysis used, just One of the transmission mediums used to distribute the court martial findings. POTUS hasn’t even disputed the facts from the court martial, rather only used his executive authority to counter the administrative action of demotion taken against Gallagher by the Navy. 

Regards
G2G

The President is getting concerned about his poll numbers. 
 Hence, exoneration of Gallagher, quick trip to Afghanistan !
Gotta keep that base happy. :not-again:
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: QV on November 29, 2019, 14:34:05
Tell me, when else recently has the subject come up of a head of government using his authority to stop a prosecution going forward, allegedly for political purposes? What was your opinion then?

Trump is legally empowered to do these things, and unfortunately has chosen to wield that power in these cases.

All of the other stuff you bring up is frankly no more than partisan whining.

I'm glad we agree that Trump is legally empowered to do the things he has done.  The only whining I hear are those complaining that he did that which he is legally allowed to do.  I'm personally agnostic to these decisions POTUS made.  I assume the Commander in Chief made these decisions for reasons that which I am not privy too, not unlike many decisions made by my chain of command that I disagree with, some I find morally questionable.  I am not influenced by the reams of negative media that I believe is disingenuous at best.     

The SNC scandal is probably criminal and can't be a fair comparison.  Not too mention the findings by the Ethics Commissioner.   
   
 
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Remius on November 29, 2019, 14:46:23

It all boils down to whether or not one believes that his motives are political or if they are truly altruistic. 

I don't believe for one second that this isn't political on his part and is all for his base.

Sad state of affairs.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: tomahawk6 on November 29, 2019, 16:27:54
Watch it your bias is showing. I don't see you bashing your PM.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Navy_Pete on November 29, 2019, 16:50:34
This is the same guy that makes political announcements via twitter prior to consulting any of his people, and bases foreign policy on whatever happened to be on Fox & Friends in the morning. Doubt he makes much use of piddly things like facts, and also doubt he has any concept or cares about things like discipline in the chain of command or the law.

He essentially stopped prosecution for some war crimes because he felt like it overuling the military chain of command. If I was a soldier I would definitely think two or three times before reporting any of these things. It's already pretty tough to do, without it getting blocked by a fat arsed orange draft dodger in chief. If murdering civilians has top cover, I would be worried about being a victim of friendly fire after reporting something like this and having it get tossed.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Baz on November 29, 2019, 17:55:29
Watch it your bias is showing. I don't see you bashing your PM.

Actually, I stated my concern with most if Trump's actions is with deliberately stretching the powers of his office and the long term concerns with that, and then went on to say I have the same concerns with our current PMO (which I think is run by the old guard of the liberal party mixed with the young good idea club).

So, yes, I did bash my PM.  And by the way, I can bash the president and not be biased.  Most centrists, who don't in fact troll the internet, are doing just that.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: milnews.ca on November 29, 2019, 21:56:33
The SNC scandal is probably criminal and can't be a fair comparison.
Well, if this is the case ...
... the publicly available results of Gallagher’s court martial which found him guilty of desecrating and posing with the corpse of an enemy combatant, which is counter both to the US Code of Service Discipline and the Law of Armed Conflict ...
... and when the official record (https://www.jag.navy.mil/news/rot/JUL2019.pdf)* says this:
Quote
... On 3 July 2019, the panel of (General Court-Martial) members returned a verdict of guilty for disorderly conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline and of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces ...
... that sounds probably criminal to me - YMMV 

* - As detailed by the original charge sheet excerpt attached (source (https://www.scribd.com/document/393220365/Charge-Sheet-For-The-Navy-SEAL-Accused-Of-War-Crimes-In-Mosul)).
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: QV on November 30, 2019, 01:17:26
And the difference being Trudeau may have committed a crime or his staff may have, whereas POTUS used his legal powers.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: tomahawk6 on November 30, 2019, 01:44:36
As for Trump no evidence has been presented that anything untoward was done. In fact most of the testimony presented so far is hearsay which is not allowed in Federal Rules of evidence.Maybe such evidence is allowed under Crown Rules.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: FJAG on November 30, 2019, 02:14:36
As for Trump no evidence has been presented that anything untoward was done. In fact most of the testimony presented so far is hearsay which is not allowed in Federal Rules of evidence.Maybe such evidence is allowed under Crown Rules.

What someone sees or hears, is not hearsay. Someone reporting the contents of a conversation that he hears is giving direct evidence of what was said. It only becomes hearsay when it is put forward for the purpose of proving for the truth of the statement made by the other party. e.g. John reports that Don said "I killed someone" is admissible as direct evidence of the fact that Don said that, but is not conclusive evidence of the fact that Don actually killed someone. There's a big difference as to what hearsay actually is and what the opinion reporters at Fox would have you believe.

I know that it's hard for people who voted for Trump to find any fault in the man and I fully expect that the Republican majority in the Senate will protect his butt just as much as the Democrats protected Clinton (although 10 Republicans voted "Not Guilty" on count 1 and 5 Republicans voted "Not Guilty" on count 2 as well) Considering that a two thirds majority is needed to convict, I see no way on God's Green Earth that Trump will ever be found guilty of any charge regardless of how heavy the evidence is.

Personally, I think the evidence given, and the obvious and legally viable deductions that can be made from it, is that Trump engaged Guiliani and others to put pressure on the Ukrainians (by withholding Congress authorized funds and promising incentives such as a Presidential meeting) to make public statements meant to harm Biden's campaign to become the Democratic candidate (and subsequently harm his presidential campaign). I would suggest that the totality of Trump and his cronies' actions support a legitimate charge of bribery whereby incentives are offered in order to further Trump's political agenda (and not the nation's interest)

Quote
Bribery is defined by Black's Law Dictionary as the offering, giving, receiving, or soliciting of any item of value to influence the actions of an official, or other person, in charge of a public or legal duty.[1] With regard to governmental operations, essentially, bribery is "Corrupt solicitation, acceptance, or transfer of value in exchange for official action."[2]

 :cheers:
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Brihard on November 30, 2019, 02:40:16
And the difference being Trudeau may have committed a crime or his staff may have, whereas POTUS used his legal powers.

What you’re doing is called “whataboutism”, to wit, a shrill “what about Trudeau!?” Since it’s not a thread about Trudeau, said distraction is not relevant.

Not had a single person claimed that Trump’s actions WRT Gallagher or the others are illegal. On the contrary, a number of us have ceded that it’s within his lawful authority. We find ourselves in that ugly patch of ground where ‘Legal’ can still be ‘immoral’, ‘unethical’, ‘wrong’, and ‘damaging to the ability of the profession of arms to safeguard good order and discipline’.

It’s not illegal for Trump to exert his executive authority as commander in chief for crass political motives. It’s not illegal for him to pardon a war criminal literally convicted of murder. It’s not illegal for him to use his authority to stop an additional murder trial from proceeding to court martial. But it’s a bunch of the other things I said above. He is interfering in things that are not his place to interfere with, and it is hurting the military in much more fundamental ways than any use of a war criminal as human bunting at a campaign stop ever could.

That fact that anyone actually defends him in preventing a murder trial from taking place is one of the few things about him that can still astonish me. All the moreso for anyone on our side of the border.

Just make sure you understand that’s the side being taken here. People are defending the pardon of a convicted murderer. People are defending the political interference with criminal proceedings for another murder. Anyone who is OK with that has put partisan politics on far too high a pedestal.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: QV on November 30, 2019, 03:10:05
What you’re doing is called “whataboutism”, to wit, a shrill “what about Trudeau!?” Since it’s not a thread about Trudeau, said distraction is not relevant.

Not had a single person claimed that Trump’s actions WRT Gallagher or the others are illegal. On the contrary, a number of us have ceded that it’s within his lawful authority. We find ourselves in that ugly patch of ground where ‘Legal’ can still be ‘immoral’, ‘unethical’, ‘wrong’, and ‘damaging to the ability of the profession of arms to safeguard good order and discipline’.

It’s not illegal for Trump to exert his executive authority as commander in chief for crass political motives. It’s not illegal for him to pardon a war criminal literally convicted of murder. It’s not illegal for him to use his authority to stop an additional murder trial from proceeding to court martial. But it’s a bunch of the other things I said above. He is interfering in things that are not his place to interfere with, and it is hurting the military in much more fundamental ways than any use of a war criminal as human bunting at a campaign stop ever could.

That fact that anyone actually defends him in preventing a murder trial from taking place is one of the few things about him that can still astonish me. All the moreso for anyone on our side of the border.

Just make sure you understand that’s the side being taken here. People are defending the pardon of a convicted murderer. People are defending the political interference with criminal proceedings for another murder. Anyone who is OK with that has put partisan politics on far too high a pedestal.

The only person being shrill is you with your conjecture.  You just can’t stand there are differing opinions.  This is just a discussion forum, not an echo chamber, and can you stop insinuating ugly allegations for a change?  Your inferences are ignorant and absurd. 
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Brihard on November 30, 2019, 03:36:50
The only person being shrill is you with your conjecture.  You just can’t stand there are differing opinions.  This is just a discussion forum, not an echo chamber, and can you stop insinuating ugly allegations for a change?  Your inferences are ignorant and absurd.

I have no problem with the existence of dissenting opinions, but if they’re out to lunch I’ll call you or others on it. You’re right, it’s a discussion forum, which is why we’re free to discuss such things. So it’s clear, I’m not insinuating or inferring anything. I’m directly condemning the ethics of interfering in military judicial  and career review processes for political purposes. I’m directly questioning the principles of anyone who would support that out of some partisan political views. The proper functioning of military law and discipline should rise above partisan politics for anyone who places any stock in the ‘profession’ part of ‘profession of arms’. I don’t like war criminals, and I don’t like when politicians enable them or contribute to a culture of impunity. To me (and clearly to many others here) this is a no brainer.

Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Good2Golf on November 30, 2019, 11:19:37
So in review, QV, to help you see what many of us have been pointing out about the President’s actions:
1) we appear to universally accept that the President’s executive authority to halt the Navy’s administrative action to demote Gallagher was a lawful course of action open to the President. Show us one person who said this was not the case;
2) what many of us then juxtapose as a concern is that legal notwithstanding, the President’s actions to support a soldier who was himself during trial by court martial convicted of contravening the US Code of Service Discipline and concurrently the contemporary Law of Armed Conflict (including numerous sections of the Geneva and Hague Conventions) communicates to America’s allies that dishonorable conduct by American armed forces personnel is not only acceptable to the US Commander in Chief, but individuals doing so will be support by the President.

If this is something that you feel should not concern those who expect any nation’s military personnel to conduct themselves not only legally but morally and ethically, there is probably not anything any of us could say or do to change your mind.

The separation between the President’s entirely legal actions versus what many, but clearly not all, believe to be an ethical/moral action to support a convicted dishonorable soldier, is the fundamental issue at play.

:2c:

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: milnews.ca on November 30, 2019, 12:51:46
Put simply, just because something's legal doesn't always make it right.

On a more satirical note, this from Duffle Blog (https://www.duffelblog.com/2019/11/trump-overturns-extra-duty-for-three-e-4s-who-were-late-for-formation/) ...
Quote
President Donald Trump has intervened on behalf of three Fort Bragg soldiers who found themselves in trouble recently. Spc. Willis Kerstetter, Michael Mills, and Hector Tapia—each assigned to Alpha Company, 1st Battalion, 504th Infantry—arrived late for first formation Monday morning. First Sgt. Jimmie Owens assigned the soldiers a week of extra duty to help them “get themselves correct.”

Kerstetter went to Twitter and requested the assistance of the Commander-in-Chief.

“I saw on the internet [President Trump] pardoned some officers who were in trouble,” said Kerstetter, “so I figured he might help us. I mean, it’s not like we murdered anyone or anything.”

To their surprise, word came from brigade headquarters a few hours later informing the soldiers they no longer had to report for extra duty after hours.

“I couldn’t believe it worked,” said Mills. “I mean, I just figured Kerstetter was being a goof, as usual. But, it ******* worked! Oh, sorry, am I allowed to swear?”

Trump tweeted Monday night*, “We train these boys in Specialist Forces [sic] to be killing machines, but then we lock them up for being a few minutes late? A lot of people have been saying these boys—they’re amazing soldiers; probably the best we have— were given a raw deal. NO WAY!!!” ...

* - What it COULD have looked like is attached  ;D
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Brihard on November 30, 2019, 13:14:58
So in review, QV, to help you see what many of us have been pointing out about the President’s actions:

Nicely laid out. Further, to establish the ‘so what?’or why we as Canadians care about this: many of us on this board have deployed alongside our American partners. We shared a battle space with them. Some members here will in future, others among us may see soldiers we trained, friends, colleagues go again. Canada engages in coalition operations. Our own credibility and legitimacy is impacted by that of our allies. Misdeeds by allies have the potential to disrupt our own ops and to have things go sideways for our own people. If other nations cease to believe that the US will refrain from criminal actions, that hurts coalition efforts. It hurts our own support domestically and internationally.

As an NCO I learned that you don’t get the behaviour you demand; you get the behaviour you tolerate. POTUS has shown that if it scores him political points, he will tolerate war crimes under America’s own military law- not even an externally imposed jus cogens legal norm.

Remember, this is the same president who needed it forcibly explained to him why it would be illegal for American soldiers at the border to simply shoot migrants who threw rocks. He has already demonstrated that he has a far from adequate grasp of how the law works when it comes to use of military force- or more frighteningly, that perhaps he does but merely doesn’t care if there are politics points to be scored.

As long as Canada deploys troops in coalition operations with our wagon hitched to America’s horse, this matters.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on November 30, 2019, 13:26:47
As bad as this is, it's the tip of the iceberg as far as the US and War Crimes post 9/11 are concerned. 

Every Presidency has tolerated them for partisan political reasons, even the beloved Obama Administration. 

Watch the movie "The Report" out on Amazon Prime or read about the CIA EITP.  Despicable is the only word that comes to mind.

Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: mariomike on November 30, 2019, 13:48:45
Every Presidency has tolerated them for partisan political reasons, even the beloved Obama Administration. 

For reference to the discussion,

President Obama's war crime pardons after eight years,
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNRhF-J5XMZvw8XLP3YXVPgh8i6yDg%3A1575135808133&ei=QKriXeTtB8G6ggfsmpy4BA&q=obama+pardon+%22war+crimes%22&oq=obama+pardon+%22war+crimes%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...10914.14097..14566...0.0..0.155.493.1j3......0....1..gws-wiz.......35i39.OCKYkSDX6pY&ved=0ahUKEwjkjcSSvpLmAhVBneAKHWwNB0cQ4dUDCAo&uact=5#spf=1575135827037

President Trump's war crime pardons after less than three years,
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNSYpocuESV6Uv35g46-cdLWdAwVrQ%3A1575135824361&ei=UKriXd3WFcTs_QbC9YBw&q=trump+pardon+%22war+crimes%22&oq=trump+pardon+%22war+crimes%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...89358.92528..93036...0.0..0.192.1381.4j8......0....1..gws-wiz.......35i302i39.qEBtig9PAys&ved=0ahUKEwjdvqKavpLmAhVEdt8KHcI6AA4Q4dUDCAo&uact=5#spf=1575135921957

I used the same search parameters for both.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: FJAG on November 30, 2019, 13:53:54
Nicely laid out. Further, to establish the ‘so what?’or why we as Canadians care about this: many of us on this board have deployed alongside our American partners. We shared a battle space with them. Some members here will in future, others among us may see soldiers we trained, friends, colleagues go again. Canada engages in coalition operations. Our own credibility and legitimacy is impacted by that of our allies. Misdeeds by allies have the potential to disrupt our own ops and to have things go sideways for our own people. If other nations cease to believe that the US will refrain from criminal actions, that hurts coalition efforts. It hurts our own support domestically and internationally.

As an NCO I learned that you don’t get the behaviour you demand; you get the behaviour you tolerate. POTUS has shown that if it scores him political points, he will tolerate war crimes under America’s own military law- not even an externally imposed jus cogens legal norm.

Remember, this is the same president who needed it forcibly explained to him why it would be illegal for American soldiers at the border to simply shoot migrants who threw rocks. He has already demonstrated that he has a far from adequate grasp of how the law works when it comes to use of military force- or more frighteningly, that perhaps he does but merely doesn’t care if there are politics points to be scored.

As long as Canada deploys troops in coalition operations with our wagon hitched to America’s horse, this matters.

Very true.

I'll add one more factor and just for the sake of disclosure, I believe that the US military justice system needs to be more separated from the chain of command as command influence (while statutorily prohibited) is simply not systemically prevented and occurs entirely too often (and not just this recent presidential interference but numerous other cases from within the military before that.) Canada's prosecutors and judges, while part of the military, have a much greater autonomy than those of the US by, among other things, removing the convening authority from the offender's CoC.

The fact of the matter is that if CoC interference is allowed to continue, there will be an eventual backlash which removes war crime (or any serious crime) jurisdiction of the military and gives it to some know-nothing civilian agency. Simply take a look at the extent to which the UK has gone with IHAT (Iraq Historic Allegations Team) and even the perpetual investigations (and now prosecution) of military personnel respecting the "Troubles" in Northern Ireland.

I'm a firm believer that there needs to be a military justice system to efficiently try serious offences committed by military personnel. But it needs to not only be fair and independent but also be seen as such by the public. Trump's actions by not only freeing offenders but by denigrating the system publicly undermine the entire structure. He is the President and, if he sees the system as being unfair, he could, and should, direct the Secretary of Defence to undertake a review of the system and implement systemic solutions. Instead he's grandstanding to his followers with scattershot actions that do not fix anything but simply make matters worse. It's another example of a man who has no actual knowledge about the subject he's spouting off on and is taking knee jerk reactions rather than rational steps. Throwing rocks into the swamp doesn't drain it.

He's drunk on the power of the pardon. It's going to be interesting to see who all gets presidential pardons when he's finally kicked out of office next year.  ;D

 :2c:

Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Jarnhamar on November 30, 2019, 17:32:21
Watch it your bias is showing. I don't see you bashing your PM.

Whataboutisim and deflection.



Sorry but Trump is ****ed. This Navy SEAL committed war crimes and by the sounds of it he's pretty screwed up in the head, unless you think taking that re-enlistment oath or whatever it was next to a dead body is normal.

The problem is there's a chuck of the population to idolize 'special forces'. They're willing to not only accept illegal or messed up behavior but defend it "because you don't know what it's like to be them". People will go so far as to justify murder because SOF are doing hard jobs under stressful conditions without much rest etc.. etc..

Trump is looking for support from these people.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: tomahawk6 on November 30, 2019, 20:51:03
There are those in the military that like Trump pardoned the men that he did because it showed that he had their back. Some of our policies are stupid . Like an AD might see a man get far more serious punishment than it should. Mistakes are common in the military. Look at ww2 photos and you might see soldiers posing with dead enemy. In todays pc world there is shock and horror. I looked at your profile to see if had even served or your opinions come from civvy street. I have concluded the latter.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: mariomike on November 30, 2019, 21:08:04
Look at ww2 photos and you might see soldiers posing with dead enemy.

Frank Sheeran served with the 45th Infantry Division during the Italian Campaign; including the invasion of Sicily, the Salerno landings, the Anzio Campaign. He then served in the landings in southern France, and the invasion of Germany.

He put it this way,
Quote
1.Revenge killings in the heat of battle. Sheeran told Brandt that, when a German soldier had just killed his close friends and then tried to surrender, he would often "send him to hell, too". He described often witnessing similar behavior by fellow GIs.

2.Orders from unit commanders during a mission. When describing his first murder for organized crime, Sheeran recalled: "It was just like when an officer would tell you to take a couple of German prisoners back behind the line and for you to 'hurry back'. You did what you had to do."

3.The Dachau massacre and other reprisal killings of concentration camp guards and trustee inmates.

4.Calculated attempts to dehumanize and degrade German POWs. While Sheeran's unit was climbing the Harz Mountains, they came upon a Wehrmacht mule train carrying food and drink up the mountainside. The female cooks were first allowed to leave unmolested, then Sheeran and his fellow GI's "ate what we wanted and soiled the rest with our waste". Then the Wehrmacht mule drivers were given shovels and ordered to "dig their own shallow graves". Sheeran later joked that they did so without complaint, likely hoping that he and his buddies would change their minds. But the mule drivers were shot and buried in the holes they had dug. Sheeran explained that by then, he "had no hesitation in doing what I had to do."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Sheeran#War_crimes

Then the was the war in the Pacific,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes#Pacific_theater


Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Jarnhamar on November 30, 2019, 21:17:31
Quote from: tomahawk6
I looked at your profile to see if had even served or your opinions come from civvy street. I have concluded the latter.

Irrelevant in this discussion.

Civvy street decides the ROEs and the military are ultimately accountable to civvys.





Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: tomahawk6 on November 30, 2019, 21:38:02
Irrelevant in this discussion.

Civvy street decides the ROEs and the military are ultimately accountable to civvys.


 ;D
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: milnews.ca on November 30, 2019, 21:50:15
... There are those in the military that like Trump pardoned the men that he did because it showed that he had their back ...
Having the back of people who've been found guilty of breaking the rules may not be seen as seizing/taking the moral high ground.  Is the current C-in-C also going to intervene in the cases where all sorts of other U.S. military forces have been disciplined for similar photos or disrespecting of dead bodies?  If he really has everyone's back, I can't wait for the first troop who's done the same to pipe up for a break ... 
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Brihard on November 30, 2019, 22:31:34
There are those in the military that like Trump pardoned the men that he did because it showed that he had their back. Some of our policies are stupid . Like an AD might see a man get far more serious punishment than it should. Mistakes are common in the military. Look at ww2 photos and you might see soldiers posing with dead enemy. In todays pc world there is shock and horror. I looked at your profile to see if had even served or your opinions come from civvy street. I have concluded the latter.

Murder isn’t a mistake. It’s a war crime.

Out of curiosity, why do you weakly try to shift focus to Jarnhamar’s employment history rather than focusing on the merits of what he said? Is there a single part of his argument that depends on him having served to be correct? If hypothetically he *had* actually served in the military, would it strengthen his position? Is the law of armed conflict something that can only be meaningfully grasped by those in uniform? If someone were to make the same argument as him, except that that person had four tours in two different countries, had been blown up, ambushes, and had shot people, and had commanded soldiers downrange, would that person’s position automatically be stronger than his even if the exact same things were written?

I know I’ve been accused of arrogance on this site before, but buddy, you’re taking the cake.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Good2Golf on December 01, 2019, 02:12:08
...I looked at your profile to see if had even served or your opinions come from civvy street. I have concluded the latter.

As the target of your incorrect assessment said, “irrelevant.”

It could be that for all your past talk about service to America, you are in fact a poser, a civilian with your imaginative story of having served, trying to self-aggrandize to make you feel more important than warranted...but like yours, such supposition doesn’t change the truth of the situation noted earlier...POTUS legally used his authority to protect a dishonorable soldier, full stop.

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Baz on December 01, 2019, 08:02:42
As someone who does not currently serve, I have both a right and a duty to ensure that the military that acts on my behalf follows the current social norms of my society.  We don't get to break the rules we established just because "they" do.

If our main ally decides to institutionally start to change the rules, on a pretext that war is war (ironically thereby creating a cycle of hatred, see the Hitler Youth vs Canadians at Normandy), then I'm certainly in a place to express my opinion,  and not just in corners of the internet (don't be surprised if some of us are actually trying to influence our government's response).

As I said earlier, this is not about supporting Trump; even though I think he is negatively disruptive, I understand why people support what he stands for.  However, he is (arguably unwittingly) changing the rules on this and other things.  I, and obviously other's in this discussion, find that concerning.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: QV on December 02, 2019, 11:47:34
If Trump's conduct is so wrong, then I expect both the house and the senate to impeach him.  And failing that, for him to lose the next election.

But, I believe most of the MSM reporting is purposely skewed to harm Trump and I think a lot of Americans think that way too.  The problem here is that now even if the MSM had something legitimate, true, and harmful to report on Trump, they have damaged their credibility to the point where everything is in doubt.  So, he now gets the benefit of that doubt. 

Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Navy_Pete on December 02, 2019, 14:59:17
There are those in the military that like Trump pardoned the men that he did because it showed that he had their back. Some of our policies are stupid . Like an AD might see a man get far more serious punishment than it should.

The guy was turned in by his fellow SEALs.  Who has their back?  To me, this is like a union standing up for that total soup sandwich that is a danger to work with and ignoring the impact on all the other people in that shop. It's missing the obvious big picture to score cheap, short term points, and is bad for the majority of the group.

This action undermines the whole military justice system, and that's dangerous for everyone. ROEs and the Mil Justice are checks and balances against the kind of terrible abuses you can have otherwise, and those things are the difference between being professionals or roving death squads. Being proud of your troops doesn't mean unquestioning support in everything they do, and ignoring that this guy broke the code of conduct and others may have committed murder is an insult to the vast majority that follow the rules and don't condone this kind of behaviour, as it tarnished the reputation of the SEALs.

The guy wasn't convicted by a bunch of random civvies, it was his peers that made the decision, his peers that reported him, and the CoC that was overseeing the review. Please explain how a person that has never served knows better than them what is proper conduct for military member in a theatre of war.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: milnews.ca on December 02, 2019, 15:32:32
This right here:
... The guy wasn't convicted by a bunch of random civvies, it was his peers that made the decision, his peers that reported him, and the CoC that was overseeing the review ...
... as well as his peers being denied a chance to determine whether or not he gets to stay in the SEALS.

Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right.

Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Brihard on December 02, 2019, 18:38:35
But, I believe most of the MSM reporting is purposely skewed to harm Trump and I think a lot of Americans think that way too.  The problem here is that now even if the MSM had something legitimate, true, and harmful to report on Trump, they have damaged their credibility to the point where everything is in doubt.  So, he now gets the benefit of that doubt.

Benefit of *what* doubt? By chance are you confusing this thread with the impeachment thread? There’s no point of fact that is contested with regards to the Gallagher case or the other war crimes files. Trump doesn’t deny any actions attributed to him here. On the contrary he positively revels in them. He DID interfere in navy proceedings regarding  Gallagher’s career status. He DID reverse his demotion. He DID order that he would keep his trident. This is all public record. He DID pardon a convicted war criminal- a man convicted of murder. He DID order that another murder trial not go forward.

There’s no doubt for him to get the benefit of. It’s not in question that he *can* do these things. Yes, the president of the United States has the legal power to stop a war crimes trial and to pardon a convicted war criminal. Yes, the president has the power to reach as deeply into the internal workings of military discipline, conduct, and performance as he feels and to meddle to his heart’s content.

Not a single person here contests that. The line is drawn between those that are specifically ok with him doing it and are willing to defend it (you and a scant few others seem on that side, though you seem reluctant to clarify what if any lines you aren’t comfortable seeing crossed), and those of us who are not ok with the legal, but unethical and immoral actions. These are not impeachment fodder, but they are the mark of an unprincipled and self-interested politician who will use the military for whatever crass ends catch his fancy between tweets. He forces the profession of arms to dishonor itself.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Baz on December 02, 2019, 19:13:13
Brihard: agreed.

But I fear that a segment of society is so convinced that he is the only one that can "drain the swamp" and therefore he can do no wrong... anyone who opposes him is part of the "deep state," including members of his own military who have a long record of honorable service.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Remius on December 27, 2019, 14:28:16
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/27/politics/eddie-gallagher-navy-seals-video-interviews/index.html

Looks like his platoon mates had a strong opinion of him...
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: QV on December 27, 2019, 15:06:55
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/27/politics/eddie-gallagher-navy-seals-video-interviews/index.html

Looks like his platoon mates had a strong opinion of him...

For context, the CNN article has three platoon members with something bad to say and one of them was the actual person (SCOTT) who admitted to killing the wounded prisoner Gallagher was on trial for.  No wonder Gallagher was acquitted at trial.

       
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Brihard on December 27, 2019, 15:29:30
For context, the CNN article has three platoon members with something bad to say and one of them was the actual person (SCOTT) who admitted to killing the wounded prisoner Gallagher was on trial for.  No wonder Gallagher was acquitted at trial.

Given the difficulty of prosecuting offences in a war zone, and the typical SEAL code of silence, I’m not surprised he was acquitted of most (but not all) charges. I’m inclined, however, to believe the seven members of his platoon who testified against him over his account. For this many SEALs to turn on one of their own and to describe the things they described in sworn testimony is damning.

I stand by my opinion of him. He is a war criminal and a disgrace, and it’s disgraceful and damaging to the profession of arms for the administration to have coddled and supported him.

National Post has a good article on this one: https://nationalpost.com/news/world/the-guy-is-freaking-evil-colleagues-say-navy-seal-pardoned-by-trump-cared-primarily-about-kill-counts
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Jarnhamar on December 31, 2019, 11:45:25
Quote
Eddie Gallagher ‘Is Freaking Evil’ Says Fellow Navy SEAL in Damning Leaked Videos

“You could tell he was perfectly OK with killing anybody that was moving,” said a Navy SEAL member in the special operations chief’s platoon
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/edward-gallagher-navy-seal-leaked-videos-931710/


Given these guys are essentially trained assassins I'm not surprised to read one of them described as okay with killing anyone that was moving.
Is that really a surprising admission though?

When the SEAL Team 10 2007 Lone survivor story broke the ethical dilemma of whether the team should have murdered the young boy and grandfather who discovered them, thus safeguarding the teams presence, was pretty big. A lot of people seemed to be perfectly fine (within the realm of online debating of course) with murdering the goat herders (or lookouts) to protect the SEALs.

Lots of justification why murdering them was okay, including the fact that the 9/11 hijackers trained in Afghanistan (trained what exactly I have no idea).

Eddie Gallagher seems to be pretty crazy and I'm absolutely not making excuses here but maybe the problems we're seeing surfacing (heh!) with the SEALs goes deeper than shitty leadership in the unit or a shitty culture in their teams.  Maybe it's a reflection of what their society are willing to deem acceptable behavior 'for freedom'.

And it appears their president not only just validated it but is promoting it as heroic.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Hamish Seggie on December 31, 2019, 12:01:38
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/edward-gallagher-navy-seal-leaked-videos-931710/


Given these guys are essentially trained assassins I'm not surprised to read one of them described as okay with killing anyone that was moving.
Is that really a surprising admission though?

When the SEAL Team 10 2007 Lone survivor story broke the ethical dilemma of whether the team should have murdered the young boy and grandfather who discovered them, thus safeguarding the teams presence, was pretty big. A lot of people seemed to be perfectly fine (within the realm of online debating of course) with murdering the goat herders (or lookouts) to protect the SEALs.

Lots of justification why murdering them was okay, including the fact that the 9/11 hijackers trained in Afghanistan (trained what exactly I have no idea).

Eddie Gallagher seems to be pretty crazy and I'm absolutely not making excuses here but maybe the problems we're seeing surfacing (heh!) with the SEALs goes deeper than shitty leadership in the unit or a shitty culture in their teams.  Maybe it's a reflection of what their society are willing to deem acceptable behavior 'for freedom'.

And it appears their president not only just validated it but is promoting it as heroic.

Read "Bravo Two Zero". Its a similar story about an SAS patrol compromised during Gulf War 1 deep inside Iraq. IIRC the patrol also considered "slotting' the  sheep or goat herder as well, but elected not to.

Contact with the locals on these two deep missions seem to have been overlooked.

Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Remius on December 31, 2019, 12:30:30
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/edward-gallagher-navy-seal-leaked-videos-931710/

Given these guys are essentially trained assassins I'm not surprised to read one of them described as okay with killing anyone that was moving.
Is that really a surprising admission though?

Eddie Gallagher seems to be pretty crazy and I'm absolutely not making excuses here but maybe the problems we're seeing surfacing (heh!) with the SEALs goes deeper than shitty leadership in the unit or a shitty culture in their teams.  Maybe it's a reflection of what their society are willing to deem acceptable behavior 'for freedom'.

Good points.  But given that it was his own peers (other trained assassins)  that reported him, and then described him as unhinged should be an indication that Gallagher's behaviour  was a bit more than they were willing to accept even by their own standards. 
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: FJAG on December 31, 2019, 15:12:34
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/edward-gallagher-navy-seal-leaked-videos-931710/
...
When the SEAL Team 10 2007 Lone survivor story broke the ethical dilemma of whether the team should have murdered the young boy and grandfather who discovered them, thus safeguarding the teams presence, was pretty big. A lot of people seemed to be perfectly fine (within the realm of online debating of course) with murdering the goat herders (or lookouts) to protect the SEALs.

Lots of justification why murdering them was okay, including the fact that the 9/11 hijackers trained in Afghanistan (trained what exactly I have no idea).
...

If I had a nickle for every time this type of scenario came up during one of my LOAC lectures ...

Suffice it to say that there were always a significant number of students who were uncomprehending as to why they couldn't just "waste the f**ers" and who didn't respond well to being told that in consequence they would spend the rest of their lives in jail.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Retired AF Guy on December 31, 2019, 17:13:12
For context, the CNN article has three platoon members with something bad to say and one of them was the actual person (SCOTT) who admitted to killing the wounded prisoner Gallagher was on trial for.  No wonder Gallagher was acquitted at trial.

My understanding is that the medics (Scott) actions took place after the ISIS member had been stabbed by Gallagher. His admission was also the opposite of what several other witnesses had seen and what Scott had previous stated.

Wikipedia has more here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Gallagher_(Navy_SEAL)#Criminal_allegations).
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: mariomike on January 28, 2020, 18:32:35
Eddie strikes back,

https://www.google.com/search?q=eddie+gallagher&sxsrf=ACYBGNSQnzsc6j9jAXURS_WDWVVYA36kCQ:1580250679692&source=lnt&tbs=qdr:d&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjt46zDrKfnAhXpUt8KHSCHDs0QpwV6BAgPEBs&biw=1280&bih=641#spf=1580250697757
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: Brihard on January 28, 2020, 19:32:55
Eddie strikes back,

https://www.google.com/search?q=eddie+gallagher&sxsrf=ACYBGNSQnzsc6j9jAXURS_WDWVVYA36kCQ:1580250679692&source=lnt&tbs=qdr:d&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjt46zDrKfnAhXpUt8KHSCHDs0QpwV6BAgPEBs&biw=1280&bih=641#spf=1580250697757

I consider his numerous teammates who testified under oath to be considerably more consistent and credible. At this point I don't put any stock in what he said.

I'm not surprised he's cranky, he has deservedly seen his career end from this, despite avoiding accountability for the bulk of the choices he made. But his self-pity party is exactly that.
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: FJAG on February 05, 2020, 13:20:09
Quote
Top Navy SEAL commander to resign after apparent disagreements with Trump
David Choi Feb 4, 2020, 9:01 AM

Special Warfare Rear Adm. Collin Green, the US Navy admiral responsible for the service's special-operations forces, will step down from his position in September, The Intercept reported over the weekend.

Green, the commander of Naval Special Warfare Command, graduated from the US Naval Academy in 1986 and completed the Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL course two years later. He served in SEAL Teams 2, 3, and 5 and in senior roles for NATO's special-operations command and US Central Command.

His retirement follows the controversial court-martial of Special Warfare Operator Chief Eddie Gallagher. Green moved to withdraw Gallagher's Trident pin, which signifies membership in the Navy SEAL community.

Green in November ordered a peer evaluation of Gallagher, who had been demoted and charged with war crimes, including the murder of an ISIS prisoner of war and the shooting of two people in Iraq in 2017. Gallagher was acquitted of those counts but convicted of a lesser charge of posing for a picture with the dead ISIS fighter.

However, President Donald Trump intervened in the Navy's judicial system to free Gallagher from pretrial detention and to restore his rank after the conviction. Trump said that he was "sticking up for our armed forces" and that "there's never been a president that's going to stick up for them, and has, like I have."

The apparent disagreement between Green and the White House fueled the controversy in the Gallagher case.

"There's a long tradition in the military," Timothy Parlatore, Gallagher's civilian attorney, told Navy Times. "You don't rebel. You resign."

The incident led to other resignations by Navy leaders. Navy Secretary Richard Spencer was forced to resign after expressing disagreement with Trump's actions. According to a New York Times report, Spencer and Green had threatened to resign if Trump intervened on Gallagher's behalf.

After his ouster in November, Spencer told CBS News that he did not believe Trump "really understands the full definition of a warfighter."

"What message does that send to the troops?" said Spencer, a former Marine officer. "That you can get away with things. We have to have good order and discipline. It's the backbone of what we do, and the Trident review process with the senior enlisted reviewing fellow senior enlisted is critical.

"The senior enlisted of our military are the backbone of our military," Spencer added. "They are the girder of good order and discipline. They can handle this. They can handle this in each one of their communities."

https://www.businessinsider.com/navy-seal-resigns-disagreements-with-trump-collin-green-2020-2 (https://www.businessinsider.com/navy-seal-resigns-disagreements-with-trump-collin-green-2020-2)
Title: Re: USN SEAL Eddie Gallagher Not Guilty on 6 of 7 Charges
Post by: daftandbarmy on February 06, 2020, 00:36:41
"We have good corporals and good sergeants and some good lieutenants and captains, and those are far more important than good generals."
   

William Tecumseh Sherman

So, let's make sure that, at least, we have good Sergeants...