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The Quartermaster's Stores => Equipment - General => Topic started by: CoolGuy on June 14, 2004, 00:21:13

Title: Desert Boots
Post by: CoolGuy on June 14, 2004, 00:21:13
What do you have to do or be to be issued desert boots?
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Willy on June 15, 2004, 16:38:13
Get sent to a place where you will need them.  I.E. a desert.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Noyon on June 15, 2004, 18:47:02
LOL! Well said bud! They are issuing desert CADPAT to the soldiers in Afghanistan. 2,300 troops have it now in Afghanistan. There is a photo of a soldier in full desert CADPAT gear in the Canadian News forum.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Scotty on June 15, 2004, 22:40:02
Get sent to a place where you will need them.   I.E. a desert.
;D ;D
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on June 15, 2004, 23:23:13
I think the boots you mean are the US Altama (spelling) type in which I also use. I have found these boots to be the best for my personal use, and I wear them every day here on the job.

Nice suede and cordura, well built and really cool to wear, as my feet have never heated up that bad. The wickedly horrible Australian tan GPs which are not the greatest quality, and a almost are a cheaper version of theh US type really paly havoc on my achilles tendons. Some say the latest GPs are the best, but many also disagree.

The last pair of US desert boots lasted me a long time, infact I had them resoled with vibrum grips as the old Panama soles were too worn, but the remainder of the boots are still in great shape.

So I have two extra pair now (courtesy of a friend of mine in the CF on tour in an unknown ME country got me the extra ones). The US type are common here, but must be privatly purchased thru kit shops or on the outside, but they retail here for about $240.00/pair (ouch). After wearing this type of boot for going on 10yrs, I have yet to be challenged by any authority, but I do have a med chit in my pers file just in case.

As for the traditional regimentality of the CF, I would say the only time one could wear them is in theatre or have them on your clothing card.


Cheers,

Wes
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Jarnhamar on June 15, 2004, 23:30:02
Quote
What do you have to do or be to be issued desert boots?

Work on a base and NOT be in the combat arms :)
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Gumby on June 15, 2004, 23:42:17
HA!
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: CF_Lifer on July 24, 2004, 14:19:00
While on the Topic of Desert Boots......

When I was in CFB Kingston, for an ORA shoot. I noticed a Note on the Notice Board in the CANEX. It said "Desert Boots needed for Roto to the 'Ghan" I'm guessing theres a shortage of Desert Boots?
Are there any commercial Desert boots anyone would Recommend? Like Something off of uscav.com? Or Brigade Quartermaster?
Thanks Alot

Andrew
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: D-n-A on July 24, 2004, 16:35:50
To get the desert boots, you don't have to be deployed to a desert region, there issued to anyone that goes overseas as far as I know/seen.

CF_Lifer, what is the "Ghan" ? Are you referring to Afghanistan? 
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: CanadianTire on July 24, 2004, 16:41:52
I have heard of Canadian soldiers purchasing American desert boots, or trading with Americans because they were never issued any.  I don't know if there is any truth to that.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: atticus on July 24, 2004, 16:49:58
Hmm... when I was on CFB Edmonton most of the soldiers I seen had the tan desert boots. Maybe this was because of their upcomming Roto to Afghanistan and because of a past tour there.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: CF_Lifer on July 24, 2004, 16:52:04
Yeah, I guess people who go over there refer to it as the " 'ghan " Thats just what is said on the notice board. "Need Boots for Roto to 'Ghan"
I've seen alot of neat Desert Boots out there. Some anti-mine ones as well. (I dunno how well they would actually work against mines).
Why would they get issued Desert Boots......even if they weren't going to a desert?
What would anyone suggest a boot be made up of? Gore-Tex? Leather? Suede? 8"? 10"?
I'm looking for a Boot with a Vibram Sole, or the like, Breatheable, Cool, and Speed-Lace.
I've seen alot of Boots, ranging from Tan coloured US Army Jungle Boots, to Corcoran Desert "Jump Boots". With Price varying Accordingly. Just looking for some advice.

Andrew
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Inch on July 24, 2004, 19:12:01
I dunno about the speed lace, I've never had a pair of combat boots with speed lace but my Dr. Martins had speed lace and though they were nice to do up, they sure did eat the shoe laces quickly. Just the way the lace pulls through the eyelet seems to wear it faster than regular eyelets.

I've got a pair of black Danner Acadia's with 200gram thinsulate, they're the doggies danglies in the winter but a little warm in the summer.  I'll probably pick up a pair of uninsulated ones next summer, they're by far the most comfortable boots I've ever worn.

http://www.danner.com/categories.asp?catid=12

Cheers
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: sinblox on July 24, 2004, 19:57:59
I've seen an airforce guy wearing them regularly at CFB Comox, heh.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Coyote43D on July 25, 2004, 11:06:38
I have heard of Canadian soldiers purchasing American desert boots, or trading with Americans because they were never issued any.   I don't know if there is any truth to that.

The people buying them probably haven't been on a tour. As far as I know whenever you go on a tour you are issued two pairs of desert boots. I got mine when I went to Kosovo. And you can't exchange them unless you go on tour.

Quote from: sinblox
I've seen an airforce guy wearing them regularly at CFB Comox, heh.

I guess the airforce have different rules then, because here at the armoured school you aren't allowed wearing them unless you are in the training area.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: CanadianTire on July 25, 2004, 14:08:42
Inch: I've got two pairs of speed lace boots: a pair of old US desert ones I use for my volunteer work and just wearing around and a pair of CAT steel toes for my job.

I've had the US desert boots for about three years now, with the original laces and they aren't even wearing anywhere.  The CATs on the other hand, have started to wear after about three months.  Nothing big, but its noticeable.  The laces on the desert boots are very thin and hard; it seems like they've been coated with something, likely to prevent fraying and wear.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Inch on July 25, 2004, 15:51:51
I know the kind of laces you're talking about, I picked up a pair from clothing stores and they seem to last longer than the softer laces.

I don't know of any rules for the Air Force guys, there's guys that wear everything from the issued MkIII aircrew boot (flat sole for FOD vice the tread on the normal MkIII) to Matterhorns that were issued at some units out of Sqn funds to Hi Tech Magnums as well as Jungle boots and Danners.   In most cases it's not too noticeable since we don't blouse our flight suits, so as long as they're black (with the exception of the Jungle boots), no one really cares what we wear.

Cheers
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Matt_Fisher on July 25, 2004, 16:35:58
If you're looking at getting a set of Desert Boots, I'd recommend Wellco's.  They're reasonably priced, well made and are very comfortable
http://www.wellco.com/html/tihctv.html

They get alot of good reviews from guys over at the Lightfighter forum.
http://lightfighter.net/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=7336015661&f=8406084761&m

The one thing to recognize with Desert Boots is that they won't be nearly as durable as a chrome/oil tanned leather boot that is polished.  Because all desert boots are made with rough-out/suede leather, the leather tends to dry rot and deteriorate.  One way to prevent this is to treat it with leather conditioners such as mink oil or Sno-seal periodically to keep the leather moisturized and nourished.

The other major problem we had with our boots was that the issue Altamas with panama soles were that the soles wore out very quickly.  The average lifespan for the sole was maybe 3-4 months if the boots were worn everyday.

I had a set of Altamas with ripple soles on them and wore them everyday for 7 months in Iraq.  They weren't too bad, but the laces they came with sucked and had to be replaced (were too short and frayed horribly).  The ripple soles were not good in mud, as they tended to get clogged immediately, and the mud would tend to stay attached.  However, the ripple soles were great for climbing around on my LAV-25 though.  They gripped the hand rails and edges of the vehicle beautifully and on several occasions saved me from taking what could have been a nasty spill.

If I was in the market for another set of Desert Boots, I'd give the Wellco's a try.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: CF_Lifer on July 26, 2004, 02:57:18
I've been looking around, and I think if you're willing to spend the money on a boot...which is going to last you years and years (Cause honestly, how often are you going to wear a Desert boot) I think those Danners are just right. Well-made, and even with a Vibram Sole. Speed-Lace too. Not cheap though, running at around $240, but I'm sure they're 110% better than anything you get issued......

Andrew
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Bomber on July 26, 2004, 14:26:16
Check on Ebay, the boots made by Belleville seem to be pretty high on the scale as well.  You can "buy it now" for about 135, and they are vibram with goretex.  This is also a great place to get 64 pattern ruck frames, and CADPAT stuff
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: CF_Lifer on July 26, 2004, 15:06:09
You think Gore-Tex would be suitable for the Desert? I'm thinking I want something breatheable...really breatheable. Not Surrounded in a Breatheable Membrane. Vibram Sole is definitely a gooder though, Best sole out there, as far as I'm concerned!
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Bomber on July 26, 2004, 20:21:01
Here is the link for the Bellevilles

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=588&item=2259390968&rd=1
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: AmmoTech90 on July 26, 2004, 20:55:10
We've been issued Belleville steel toed desert boots and they are much more comfortable than the Wellcos or Altamas with the Panama sole.  The literature that comes with them say they are a fast wearing soles but they have lasted longer the Altamas I've got.  Good grip too and a bit more ankle support than the Altamas.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: KevinB on July 26, 2004, 21:44:20
Andrew,

I have two sets of the Desert Acadia - they are comfy and breathe well.

Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: CF_Lifer on July 26, 2004, 22:47:40
Are the Acadia's issued to you? Or did you have to buy them?
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: KevinB on July 26, 2004, 23:10:42
Bought.

I have had a Danner chit since 95.  I find the soles of the issue boots to hurt my back and knees, so I figured I was worth it...
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: CF_Lifer on July 27, 2004, 05:48:54
I like those Danners. They look like a top Quality Boot. Already have a Vulcan sole too. So do you use the Danners instead of the Altama's? Which model? The Desert Model, or do you use other ones too, for General Duty?
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: KevinB on July 27, 2004, 12:56:15
In addtion to being a gun slut I am also a kit *****  ;D
I have a set of Ft Lewis that I got in 95, a set from 97.
A set of Acadias from 2001
a set of hitechs (I go through these once every 2 years or so)
2 sets of Danner Desert Acadia's.

 Wearing black boots I regularily wear the Acadias - however whenever I can I wear the Desert/Tan ones - they are cooler (yet surposingly well insulated (I wore them in Jan in Wainwright  :o).

I dislike Gortex boots for once they get wet in the field they ar a ***** to dry out.

Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: CF_Lifer on July 27, 2004, 16:17:40
Hah Kt *****...I can see myself with a title like that down the line....
What do you use the different boots for?
Personally, I think Gore-Tex is the best thing since sliced bread....as long as you keep it dry on the inside.
If I were somewhere like the jungle, or a really wet temperate place, where my feet were getting wet all the time...I'd probably opt for a quick drying, non-Gore-Tecx boot, so they'd dry fast when I took them off.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: KevinB on July 27, 2004, 16:29:55
Boots for dif climates/terrain and what we are doing.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: CF_Lifer on July 27, 2004, 16:45:21
I guess you needed to get a chit to wear those? I dunno about the RCR, but I doubt if they're as...leniant as the Patricia's. Even in terms as kit. Like those Multi-Mag clips? I dont think I'll be seeing them when I get into the RCR. (I'd imagine thats where they'll send me? I'm in the LFCA).   Are you guys required to have Scrim on your helmets? I think its an SOP for LFCA.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: KevinB on July 28, 2004, 00:31:34
Scrim is gone - you can't use the PVS-14 MNVG with it - the mount and scrim are incompatible.

 Boots - most guys get away with wearing other boots w/o a chit, as long as they are BLACK.  In the field no one cares Green/Tan/Brown etc.

Kit:  If you think you need it - submitt a request.   You woudl be surprised to see how many CO's will actually spend local purchase funds to get their troops kit.

Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: CF_Lifer on July 28, 2004, 01:38:33
Really?? The Scrim is gone? Must be taking awhile to get over here in LFCA, cause guys at NSCC still had them on. Maybe they were just too lazy to take it off? Couldn't youi just cut a hole in the scrim, where the mount for the MPVS is supposed to go? Or would that not work? (I've never seen them mounted on a CF Helmet before. Seen lots of Americans with them. Is it a new Mounting system?)
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: KevinB on July 28, 2004, 02:51:57
Andrew

ONLY THE REG FORCE INFANTRY have the MNVG.  The only 031's at NSCC where the R22eR (Vandoos) and me. 

Unfortunately the idea that SCRIM is dead and has been dead for a while has not expanded out very far.  95% of our operatiosn these days are in urban areas. 



Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: AmmoTech90 on July 28, 2004, 12:02:53
Hmmm,

Third time trying to post this...

Well, for Andrew,

Here's a pic of MNVGs in use in Haiti.  Well, not actually in use, but you can see the mounts.  Some people like to wear them around their neck as well.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: CF_Lifer on July 28, 2004, 14:44:15
Wow, cool Pics. I haven't seen any pics from Haiti yet. I've seen footage of Griffins doing the rescue missions when they had that big natural distaster (I forget what it was, flood?).
Its about time we had a helmet mounted NVG System. Does it work like the American system? Where the flat mount stays on, and you can take the system on and off?
Whats all that stuff on buddy's helmet to the left? The Tube under the helmet band, and the Gun tape?
Thanks

Andrew
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: CF_Lifer on July 28, 2004, 14:45:22
Unfortunately the idea that SCRIM is dead and has been dead for a while has not expanded out very far.   95% of our operatiosn these days are in urban areas.  

Did you like the Scrim while it was still around? For use in the bush?
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: AmmoTech90 on July 28, 2004, 15:23:58
Glow stick.

Yes you can dismount it.  I believe that there is even a kit that allows it to be used as a weapon sight.  I've only used it a few times and never with the helmet mount.

I'll try to post some pics from Haiti tonight.

Yep we had a heck of a flood.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: CF_Lifer on July 28, 2004, 15:29:31
Yes you can dismount it.   I believe that there is even a kit that allows it to be used as a weapon sight.   I've only used it a few times and never with the helmet mount.

What does the kit entail? Like a Night Sight that attaches to the Rifle? On the Rail? During 2003's NSCC, there was an EME Weapons Tech trialling the C7A2, and they had some nifty Infa-Red sight on it. You had to push your eye into the eye cup, to turn the sight on. Then it displayed White/Hot or Black/Hot. And had a cable running from it, to a monitor, so everyone else could watch. Might this be the same Sight we're talking about?
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: KevinB on July 28, 2004, 16:03:10
The MNVG is the PVS-14 - it is an American sight.

Views thru MNVG

 tgt illuminated by PEQ-2A [set: low, aim]
(http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=1050)
as wpn mount with EOTECH 552 HDS
(http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=8107)

On C8CQB
(http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=8455)

Helmet mount (left has bracket on, right has just the mount)

(http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=25824)




Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: CF_Lifer on July 28, 2004, 16:12:52
Wow, those look like some highly modified Rifles. Neat Night Vision pics too, what range is that on?
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 28, 2004, 22:42:41
Perhaps you want to know the range so you can sneak up on our sentries unawares?

:)

Whats NSCC CF_Lifer?
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: CanadianTire on July 29, 2004, 01:02:14
I got my desert boots second hand.  I'm not sure what brand they are but the soles are ro-search and are worn but still in very serviceable condition.  They still have traces of the "nubs" on the soles, and I wear them on a fairly regular basis over a decent variety of terrain (concrete, gravel, grass, sand, asphalt) and I occasionally jog/sprint in them when the dog decides he wants to run.

I've had these about three years; perhaps the ros-search soles are hard rubber the Wellco's or Altama's?
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: CF_Lifer on July 29, 2004, 03:12:42
Ghost. NSCC Is The DCRA's (Dominion of Canada Rifle Association) Nation Service Conditions Competition. It entails Practical Pistol/Rifle and Service Pistol/Rifle, as well as Precision Rifle. Anyone can enter. Civilians, Reserves, Regs, Police. They also give the Queen's Cup to the top Reservist. They also hold Team Matches, like the Falling Plates for the Rifle, and Clay Birds for the Pistol.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: KevinB on July 29, 2004, 03:26:52
I dont think you'd know the range  8)

 NSCC - the civilian portion of what was CFSAC,  The DCRA is allowed to award the reserve/rcmp Queens Medal (for champion shot)

 
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: CF_Lifer on July 29, 2004, 14:01:08
Probably not. Is it out in Edmonton? It looks like a CF Range. With the Numbered lane boards.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: KevinB on July 30, 2004, 12:41:46
Not Edmonton  ;D

 *hint some pics are not inside of Canada...
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: CF_Lifer on July 30, 2004, 13:17:54
Ohhh, I gotcha. Not a CFB Eh, on Op?
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 30, 2004, 15:58:00
 :blotto:
Title: CF issued desert boots
Post by: PViddy on December 09, 2004, 21:07:57
Hey everyone

Although, i am an Airforce Officer, hopefully i won't be shuned to much  :).  I had a question that maybe some vets/reg or res pers. might be able to answer for me.  Does anyone know if the Canadian issued desert boots are the same as the American ones ? i would like to pick up a pair but gotta stick by the dress regs!  any info would help.

Thanks
PV
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: D-n-A on December 09, 2004, 21:36:36
I've never seen american ones in person, but from what I've seen on them from TV an in pictures they look exactly the same.
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on December 09, 2004, 21:40:00
I have 2 pair of 'em sourced thru CF sources, and one pair I got thru US sorces, and they are both identical, even with the same numbers on the inside.

The CF issue  ones are off the shelf purchases of generic US boots.

I do believe that the US company Altama makes them, with the Panama sole, and marked Ro-Search on the bottom. If you want a cheap pair, go to ebay and do a search for 'desert boots'. You can land a cheaper pair that way.


Cheers,

Wes

PS - there is 2 types, in short the my CF and US sourced ones have padding near the top, and leather support on the sides. Altama also another type. Its shorter and without the padding along the top, and nylon instead of leather supporters on the sides. These cheaper boots are identical to the old US green type boots less the OD canvas, spike protective, vent holes, leather instead suede, and of course colour black instead of tan.

This different version has the same Ro-Search   and Panama sole, and are also genuine, but just slightly different.
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Yeoman on December 09, 2004, 21:48:48
just so you can know sir.
they do still have them in the inventory, however they are phasing them out for a company in Quebec called boulet. they're basically a desert version of the cold wet weather gore tex boot. at least that's what's happening in CFB Petawawa, don't know about the other bases.
personally I love these things so much more then the old altama ones. I was always fearing of a rolled/broken ankle wearing them.
Greg
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Not a Sig Op on December 09, 2004, 21:56:45
What's the sizing like for the desert boots? Same as the combat boot?
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on December 09, 2004, 22:02:52
US sizes for desert boots are as fol:

Sizes 7-12 (including half sizes) that I know of (other smaller and larger ones might be a special order): and

N for narrow
R for regular
W for wide; and
XW for extra wide

Sized as then for example, 9W.

Hope this helps ya out.

wes
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Britney Spears on December 09, 2004, 22:06:44


I don't mean to be facaecious sir, but I'd like to know what kind of crazy dress regs they follow in the air force. So you're allowed to wear issued DBs, but you haven't been issued them? I presume this is in garrision. If its the field, and you're allowed personally purchased DBs, would their country of origin really matter? and what does "the field" mean? Like walking across the tarmac?
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Not a Sig Op on December 09, 2004, 22:28:13
Hope this helps ya out.

Not really, but I appreciate the effort.

I was wondering about the fitting... such as my Civvie shoe size is 9 1/2, but in combat boots, I take an 8F.
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: PViddy on December 10, 2004, 02:15:39
I am a CIC Officer in the RCAF and thus issued items only as required.  Since i am neither reg force or combat trained or even seen operational areas such as A-stan, i can't expect a comfy pair of desert boots to show up in my stocking anytime soon.  Stuff like that is called "snivel kit" not required but desired. 
As for us Airforce types never being stationed in the field, if you check DND's site i am sure will you find many Airforce occupations that will prove you wrong, forward air controllers, UAV operators, SAR techs to name a few.

thanks to all for the info, very helpful.  I am glad i found this site.

cheers

PV
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Troopasaurus on December 10, 2004, 04:49:26
Just a note... in 1968, the RCAF ceased to exist after unification. It is now known as the Canadian Air Force and not the RCAF.
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: HollywoodHitman on December 10, 2004, 08:03:40
Just a word on snivel kit.........

You don't have to be miserable and uncomfortable in the field to be 'hard'........Someone harder than I'll ever be, who's serving privately in Iraq at the moment taught me that.........

Until you've walked the walk in the shoes of those you seek to discredit (not aimed at anyone in particular), it might be more prudent to listen/read, rather than spout...........

Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: aesop081 on December 10, 2004, 08:32:26

I don't mean to be facaecious sir, but I'd like to know what kind of crazy dress regs they follow in the air force. So you're allowed to wear issued DBs, but you haven't been issued them? I presume this is in garrision. If its the field, and you're allowed personally purchased DBs, would their country of origin really matter? and what does "the field" mean? Like walking across the tarmac?

You are pretty funny...i cant imagine how funny you will be when you get some time in !!!! I'de like to see you hangning in the door of a sea king in a high sea state................thats just as bad as the lawfeild corridor in a monsoon..........thank you very much
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Britney Spears on December 10, 2004, 11:20:58
Since we can't go 2 posts without some kind of percieved slight against a branch/service/unit/cadet corps, I'll play the SHARP game in the interests of dispelling my own ignorance.


Quote
I'de like to see you hangning in the door of a sea king in a high sea state.

That will definetly be a test of my(or anyone's) testicular fortitude. While I'm rather ignorant of the workings of the air force (hence the question), I'll wager that the average Seaking crew is in a pretty damn dangerous profession, more so than most army members. So we are in agreement?


Still waiting for an answer to my question.
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Britney Spears on December 10, 2004, 11:40:34
Oh, if it makes you feel any better, I puked my guts out on my first ride in a helicopter, and that was over land, on a sunny day.  ;D

Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: aesop081 on December 10, 2004, 13:08:49
1- No, it does not make me feel better.   In fact i didnt need to feel better ! That was not the point.

2- I only said that in response to your tarmac comment.   I used to be one of those army guys who continuously riduculed the air force.   Let me tell you what an education        actualy being aircrew has been !!

3- Yes, we are in agreement.

To get gack on the original subject, i find the sizing of desert boots to be quite different than normal (i.e.) conbat boots. I am a 9 in cbt boots and 7 for desert/jungle boots.   Before i hear anything about AF aircrews needing desert boots...........It's pretty hot in the arabian gulf !!

quote : "You don't have to be miserable and uncomfortable in the field to be 'hard'........Someone harder than I'll ever be, who's serving privately in Iraq at the moment taught me that........."

That reminds me of the phrase " there's a fine line between hard and stupid"
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: AmmoTech90 on December 10, 2004, 13:57:25
The normal desert boots are Altamas which are an ok (not great) boot.  Not much in the way of ankle support and the tread wears pretty fast.
I have been issued a pair of Belleville steel toed desert boots which are much nicer.  They are the same boot as the USMC issues only with a steel toe.  They are more comfortable and have more support than the Altamas.  I wore those for everyday use and found them more comfortable even with the steel toe.
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Rounder on December 10, 2004, 14:29:49
Aesop081... .love that

Quote
quote : "You don't have to be miserable and uncomfortable in the field to be 'hard'........Someone harder than I'll ever be, who's serving privately in Iraq at the moment taught me that........."
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Britney Spears on December 10, 2004, 14:35:41
Quote
Before i hear anything about AF aircrews needing desert boots...........It's pretty hot in the arabian gulf !!

Ugh, where did I ever attempt to ridicule the air force or imply that AF aircrews in the arabian gulf or anywhere didn't need anything? YES, the Air Force is great, I love the air force.  My question was: What kind of dress regs permit the wear of Non-issued(as in, not issued to you) DBs? Does he mean for field wear only? If so, then I think he should consider getting DBs that are better than the generally issued stuff, such as the types mentioned in the above post (not having any experience with those, I can only take ammotech90's word for it.). A little clarification would help in answering his question. Wearing Desert boots around the parade square in Winnipeg in Dec. wouldn't really fly with any of the dress regs I know of, regardless of whether they are "canadian" or not.
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: PViddy on December 10, 2004, 23:37:45
Ok,  just to clarify.

Desert Boots for field use....  tan DB's with my dress blues...oh boy, i can see the look on my CO's face! LOL  Although i am with an Air cadet unit at the present time we probably do as much, if not more than your typical Army cadet unit, thus the inquiry.  a buddy of mine has DB's and says they are super comfortable so i was looking at getting a pair.  As with the Air CIC we are only usually issued just a dress uniform and have to purchase our own field gear however must still adhere to CF dress regs.  In short i am on a research mission to see if the American DB"s are the same as Canadian ones (which aren't as readily available up here as on e bay)

so far i have concluded that they are both exactly the same.  Can. Gov. probably got them from the same manufactorer.  Hope this clears things up for ya B.Spears.


cheers guys

PV
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Britney Spears on December 11, 2004, 00:45:08
Ah, Sorry, I'm not familiar with Cadets or CIC, so the "dress regs' part was a little confusing.

I only briefly examined an american DB some years ago, so memory's a little hazy, but they are outwardly identiical. IIRC,the Canadian version has an extra mesh liner on the inside that the US model does not. Either should suit your purposes just fine.  A few personal anecdotes:

- When sizing, wear the socks you would usually wear when its hot. Presumably, you haven't been issued desert socks.
- I don't like the laces that come with the boot. They are too slippery, and while easy to lace up, come loose rather quickly. Not very good for marching. I use the normal black cbt boot laces with mine now. YMMV.
- They are lighter and more supple than cbt boots, and ankle support is non-existant.
 
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Blackhorse7 on December 11, 2004, 14:10:59
Hollywoodhitman...

Absolutely right about "snivel kit"...

Stupid name for luxury items in the field to begin with.  I had a wise old Sgt. that summed it up perfectly one particularly cold and wet ex.  "Only an idiot is uncomfortable in the field."

If you have the means to carry or transport such items, or can get away with wearing something better (mind you the kit issued now is WAY better than when I was in), then do it.
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: PViddy on December 11, 2004, 19:00:52
Another quick one to fly by everyone.  I take about a 12E in my standard issue black combat boots.  Desert boots are relatively the same size ? or should i go up or down ?  thanks guys

cheers

PV
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Rider Pride on December 11, 2004, 19:17:29
PViddy,
As I read through the thread...as tedious as it is...the question that comes to mind over and over again is:

Why do you want them?

1. You are a CIC officer,
2. You look after Cadets,
3. There is only one small (true sand like) desert in Canada,
4. You aren't about to be deployed anywhere....

If its just to wear around during fd problems in the woods here, may I then suggest jungle boots or a black boot that would be much more comfortable, and not as hard on your feet and ankles as the current desert boots.

After all there is a reason why the CF Reg army only wears them in hot, dry and dusty environments.
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Not a Sig Op on December 11, 2004, 19:21:34
3. There is only one small (true sand like) desert in Canada,

Pretty much anyone who has them and can get away with wearing them wears them in Shilo.
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: PViddy on December 12, 2004, 05:14:16
2 words.  snivel kit.  yesah i am only CIC blah blah, i have heard it all before.  cadets, especially my unit in particular will go out on field EX's as much as a CF Res. Regiment (i'm probably stretching that a bit, but we go on 4-5 field EX's a year) with current budget constraints.  I have 3 sets of black combat boots, and i they are awesome.  I want somthing light weight and cool for the summer and i will have an opportunity to buy some DB's for a relatively good price, thus my post regarding size and technical questions.  I have some friends in our host regiment that swear by them so i think they will be worth tthe bit of money paid for them.  Hope this justify's things for ya..LOL

cheers
PV
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: PViddy on December 12, 2004, 05:15:31
I didn't think the CF ever issued the black and green jungle boots ?

cheers

PV
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: dangerboy on December 12, 2004, 11:37:09
PViddy, I was issued a set around 1996 prior to going on ex in Camp Lejune
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Fishbone Jones on December 12, 2004, 12:37:44
Altama Footwear are one of our suppliers and a leading supplier to the US military.

For sizing info, go here:

http://www.altama.com/sizeChart.aspx

They also carry just about all the boots imaginable that you may want.
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: X Royal on December 12, 2004, 13:23:22
Quote from: PViddy
I didn't think the CF ever issued the black and green jungle boots ?

In 1989 I was issued green jungle boots for Snowgoose 52. That is green tops & black leather bottoms.
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: kurokaze on December 13, 2004, 09:03:40
Quote
forward air controllers, UAV operators

Not to nit-pick, and apologies for going off-topic, but the FAC role is arty, and the fate of the UAVs is still being tossed around between army and air force.  If it does go army, the artillery is getting it (in fact, 1 horse is building up a UAV troop right now).  This came directly from BGen Barabe, who I was sitting across the table from during breakfast in November 04 in Shilo.
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: PViddy on December 13, 2004, 09:57:41
meh, i tried!  LOL.  Army always get's the cool stuff   :) 

cheers

PV
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: bossi on December 13, 2004, 10:53:03
... I want somthing light weight and cool for the summer ...

Jungle boots are lighter, but with regard to "cool" I suspect you're more interested in LCF
(and as far as JB's being issued - I was issued green ones when I was being kitted out for Rwanda, and when I got my DB's for Afghanistan I saw black JB's being issued to PALLADIUM Roto 13)

I'm glad to hear you're going to purchase your Gucci boots legally using your own money, rather than abusing the supply system and depriving somebody who really needs them (i.e. overseas).
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Zlatorog on December 13, 2004, 11:40:18
RE: Another quick one to fly by everyone.   I take about a 12E in my standard issue black combat boots.   Desert boots are relatively the same size ? or should i go up or down ?   thanks guys

Personaly I found I had to take my DB up a few sizes cause I couldnt fit my foot through the arch I went from a 81/2F Mk to 10 in the DB. Something to look for as well is some of the DB styles (not sure which one) has a anti mine (everylittle bit helps) ridge down the center of the sole that can make the boot a tad bit uncomfortable to some.

Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: PViddy on December 13, 2004, 19:39:54
Gucci! who wears Gucci! Versaci is where it's at.  the boots will go great with my diamond cap badge and CADPAT Lexus.  :P and BTW i couldn't get issued DB's even if i tried.

cheers

PV
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Not a Sig Op on December 14, 2004, 00:56:37
Out of curiosity, what do people usually wear with the desert boots? Or with jungle boots?
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: George Wallace on December 14, 2004, 01:00:50
Socks.....


What do you wear?


GW
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Not a Sig Op on December 14, 2004, 01:02:46
Makes sense... easier then trying to jam a hat down there...
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Britney Spears on December 14, 2004, 01:08:17
Well, with any kind of suede shoe,  try to stick to Khakis or light colored pants......
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Not a Sig Op on December 14, 2004, 01:14:55
Are Carpis ok, or should I wear a full length pant?
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: Britney Spears on December 14, 2004, 11:11:00
I think full length is the way to go, If you have nice calves you could roll up the legs for that swashbuckling look..... Unless you've resoled your DBs with black vibram soles, in which case don't do that.

Title: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: Matt_Fisher on October 07, 2006, 12:21:19
I'm wondering what the current CF issued desert boot for troops in Afghanistan is?

Is it the same US-type Desert boot that was modelled on the jungle boot with the Panama Sole, but in tan and without drain vents,
http://www.altama.com/Tp1/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=4156

OR,

is it the 'new' US desert boot?
http://www.coveshoe.com/ItemDisplay.asp?Style=4390&CategoryID=34
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: George Wallace on October 07, 2006, 12:30:48
They have just changed boots, so depending on foot size and what is in stock, you may get either.......but then I am not a Bin Rat.
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: Rider Pride on October 07, 2006, 20:51:09
Yep, as G said, they are issueing both.
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: COBRA-6 on October 07, 2006, 20:53:01
Many are also wearing Original SWAT desert boots.
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: Bomber on October 07, 2006, 21:40:42
Matt, the new boot is made by Boulet, originally a cowboy boot manufacturer, they took the current WWB (Wet Weather Boot), inserted a small piece of razor sharp rawhide into the heel, and put some canvas on the sides.  Looks like the one you linked, but doesn't feel like it at all.  The Tri-fecta is coming on line now, as the new GPB (General Purpose Boot) is the WWB, sans goretex, without the padding around the top.  And the finishing touch, the TCB (Temperate Combat Boot) is the same as the Desert, only in CADPAT and the leather is smooth instead of the textured desert leather.  If your feet are not happy in the WWB's, hang onto your Mk 3's.
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: COBRA-6 on October 07, 2006, 21:44:55
Matt, the new boot is made by Boulet, originally a cowboy boot manufacturer, they took the current WWB (Wet Weather Boot), inserted a small piece of razor sharp rawhide into the heel, and put some canvas on the sides.  Looks like the one you linked, but doesn't feel like it at all. 

+1, absolute junk.
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: ~RoKo~ on October 07, 2006, 23:56:44
Quote
Many are also wearing Original SWAT desert boots.

That's what I wore.. AWESOME boots for "only" $100 CDN.
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: HollywoodHitman on October 08, 2006, 04:43:02
The new issued Desert Boots are crap. Full stop.
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: Tommy on October 08, 2006, 05:09:47
i knew there was a reason i bought the Danner Acadia DB's.......  thank god for Med Chits! I was told by my OIC that the DBs we will be getting are the SWAT DB's..... any idea if thats a possibility? or should i just continue to watch and shoot?
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: COBRA-6 on October 09, 2006, 01:56:21
i knew there was a reason i bought the Danner Acadia DB's.......  thank god for Med Chits! I was told by my OIC that the DBs we will be getting are the SWAT DB's..... any idea if thats a possibility? or should i just continue to watch and shoot?


Some were getting them issued, so keep your fingers crossed. I paid about $55US for mine online, and worth every penny. As soon as I got back I got a chit and now I get black SWATS through the system.
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: Cdn_Chimo on October 09, 2006, 02:12:22
I was issued the boulet steel toe variety and I found the very comfortable once the were broken in. I would recommend the Magnum's or Belleville's though. I have the black Magnum's and they are like wearing sneakers.

http://www.magnumboots.com/magnum_06_desert_series.html

http://www.bellevilleshoe.com/bootseries/790seriespub.htm
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: delavan on October 09, 2006, 02:50:23
I got the Belleville's steel toe boots issued to me  and they are really good. Vibram soles on them...
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: AmmoTech90 on October 09, 2006, 08:59:21
Second that,

Belleville steeltoe desert boots are head and shoulders above the normal desert boot (or at least the normal desert boots I got in 2000 and 2004).
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: MCG on October 09, 2006, 15:13:42
Second that,

Belleville steeltoe desert boots are head and shoulders above the normal desert boot (or at least the normal desert boots I got in 2000 and 2004).
That 'normal' boot has been replaced by something worse.
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: Bergeron 971 on November 17, 2006, 10:22:28
I've seen the Belleville steel toe issued to friends going to the a-stan.
I found a BUNCH of them for sale out side montreal for 30$ in GREAT shape with a-stan sand still in them. ;D
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: D3V1L6 on November 17, 2006, 10:42:33
The issued Boulet boots arent worth the dirt they are meant to walk on.  Soles start falling off randomly, ankle support is minimal (yet better than the old dbs) and they eat up your heels like a rabid dog on raw meat.  If you chain of command allows you to wear personnaly purchased DB's then go out and buy 1 or 2 pairs of SWATS or something similar.  As far as the army issuing SWATS...  I doubt it'll happen anytime soon, we currently are going through the AAR process fpr Op Archer roto 1, and trust me, boots have been brought up several times.
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: --NES-- on November 17, 2006, 10:50:35
I was issued the old style Altama boots, as they stopped producing (or didn't get enough) new style junk boots.  I was told that they weren't going to issue the new boots anymore as they were causing injuries, fall apart, weigh as much as mukluks and are just as hot on the feet (personal oppinion), but they could just be lying...

After waiting 2 months for my desert boots, I finally got them a week before going over (glad I had time to break them in), other troops who ordered their boots and didn't get them in time were issued SWATS... needless to say, I was just a little jelous.

story 1) Just before deloyment, we had a big battle group powwow at the Dundonald hall field house. The Battle group commander had prepared us to answer just one question (while we were in Wainwright): "ARE YOU READY?" the answer being the "HUAH!". So when he asked: "are you ready?" and we responded "Huah!" immediately after, someone (my room mate in shacks) yelled "I NEED BOOTS!"

Not everyone got boots in time... I actually saw people walking around in black boots... and not just in KAF... out in the field... jeez

Story 2) When I got my kit back from Afghanistan, I was confused to find only 3 boots (not pair... individual boots)... I guess Kandahar ate one of my boots... Damn camel spiders.

I realized after that the missing boot was cut off of my foot and was probably covered in blood, and so had to be destroyed... note to troops; if you buy it and wear it, be prepered to lose it. Once it's contaminated with blood it has to be destroyed (gucci kit-monsters beware)
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: Bergeron 971 on November 17, 2006, 16:03:31
Oh no, All my boots have blood on them  >:D
SWATs I'm not a fan of, like running shoes,
Personally, I'm a Danner fan.

PS. Issued Desert boots arn't designed to have the same ankle support as black  leather boots.
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: RN PRN on November 17, 2006, 16:39:16
It has been said again and again but as I sit and type this in my old patern DBs that bite into the tops of my feet I wish the kit shop had processed my order for the SWATS.

My orrigional issue of DBs from Yugo in 92 still fit like slippers but are beat to rat from years of use.

You can now purchase several types of DBs at the PX in KAF including danners.

And yes, if they have blood on them they go to the big burn bin in the sky....sorry Piper but your missing boot is long gone!

GF
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: Bergeron 971 on November 17, 2006, 20:27:21
I HAVE YOUR BOOT. MOAHAHAHA. CATCH ME IF YOU CAN. *runs away with one boot on foot.
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: --NES-- on November 17, 2006, 20:59:44
I HAVE YOUR BOOT. MOAHAHAHA. CATCH ME IF YOU CAN. *runs away with one boot on foot.

DAMN YOU!!!

Oh well... you can't get far, you only have one... and it has my zap number on the heel.

(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c392/rpagnacco/Army%20Pics/Forums/smiles/violent/c9a1.gif)

Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: Bergeron 971 on November 17, 2006, 23:16:36
Why so much blood on it though?
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: RN PRN on November 18, 2006, 06:02:29
Piper said it first and best.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,51916.0.html
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: --NES-- on November 18, 2006, 12:42:25
Why so much blood on it though?

Well... I'd post a pic of the hole (after 2 weeks of healing cause I don't have the origionals) but I'm sure that would get me banned or close to.

When I was hit by shrapnel, a large piece entered the back of my left thigh, and exited out the inner front of my left thigh, severing the femoral vein (not artery, thank god), which caused blood to pour out onto the sand (cause I was on my belly) and I crawled though it... voila, blood on boot.



But back to the origional topic;  When they first started issuing SWATs for my tour, they were only issuing them to people with 'chits'.  Then everyone who didn't get boots in time, and bought their own were reimbursed or were issued a pair.  but only one pair.

SWATs I'm not a fan of, like running shoes,
Personally, I'm a Danner fan.
This is the other issue with boots... They're a very personal thing, like any other operational gear.  Some people like the SWATs, some Danners, or Oakleys, and even the new kid on the block; Converse (I'm trying to find a link).. Either way, I think the military should just give troops a 'kit allowance' and have them (us) order boots through clothing stores.  Then they can control types and models without letting troops get silly with makes.

Just an Idea... but I'm really not paid to think...
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: COBRA-6 on November 19, 2006, 13:24:58

This is the other issue with boots... They're a very personal thing, like any other operational gear.  Some people like the SWATs, some Danners, or Oakleys, and even the new kid on the block; Converse (I'm trying to find a link).. Either way, I think the military should just give troops a 'kit allowance' and have them (us) order boots through clothing stores.  Then they can control types and models without letting troops get silly with makes.

Just an Idea... but I'm really not paid to think...

You are exactly right, no one boot will be right for all, people's feet are too different. Plus the amount of money wasted trying to create the ideal "CF boot" instead of buying off the shelf is ridiculous...
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: 0tto Destruct on November 30, 2006, 11:44:40
Well, I can't speak for the NCE/NSE, but the Battle Group going over in Feb all got sized for the Original Desert SWAT boots in Wainwright. Everyone gets two pair, and we should have them by Christmas.

It looks like someone is listening...

 :dontpanic:
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: ArmyVern on November 30, 2006, 12:35:09
Well, I can't speak for the NCE/NSE, but the Battle Group going over in Feb all got sized for the Original Desert SWAT boots in Wainwright. Everyone gets two pair, and we should have them by Christmas.

It looks like someone is listening...

 :dontpanic:

And you can be guaranteed that there will be many who are not satisfied with those boots either. Like it was stated below...no one style or make of footwear is suitable for all.
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: MikeM on November 30, 2006, 19:23:57
+1 Million tothe Original SWATs. Outstanding boot and I have had no trouble with them at all. I was issued 2 pairs before leaving Pet as I didn't get my original ordered boots on time (thank god).
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: BulletMagnet on November 30, 2006, 19:29:46
Issue boot JUNK!

 SWAT's are a good off the shelf substitute, but and this is a BUT if you have the time and money Converse (yes the running shoe people) make an incredible desert combat boot, I swear by mine and I have SWAT's too
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: ArmyVern on November 30, 2006, 19:32:23
Issue boot JUNK!

 SWAT's are a good off the shelf substitute, but and this is a BUT if you have the time and money Converse (yes the running shoe people) make an incredible desert combat boot, I swear by mine and I have SWAT's too

And I therefore rest my case. One style of footwear for everyone....is simply...not acceptable.  ;)
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: BulletMagnet on November 30, 2006, 19:35:23
Hey I haven't heard a bad thing about SWAT's in fact I do like mine. I just like my Converse better.

I'll tell you what I hate thought the issue Boot's are JUNK complete and total JUNK...did I say JUNK yet cause man they sure are JUNK
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: ArmyVern on November 30, 2006, 19:41:07
Hey I haven't heard a bad thing about SWAT's in fact I do like mine. I just like my Converse better.
I have. Had a couple of troops whose feet they don't work for.
I'll tell you what I hate thought the issue Boot's are JUNK complete and total JUNK...did I say JUNK yet cause man they sure are JUNK
And I've had a few troops who actually prefer these ones.

Like I said....nobody will ever be happy all of the time. Footwear, for the infanteer is critical, it has to be something that is comfortable, proper fitting, and acceptable for the individual who has to wear it. The individual....not the majority, not the minority. Footwear should be based on the individual's needs and comfort.

Vern
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: BulletMagnet on November 30, 2006, 19:43:28
And I've had a few troops who actually prefer these ones.

We are talking about the new desert boot right just the old style ie Bosnia/Somolia issue, I'm talking about the ones that are designed like the old CWW boot cause if we are......

They are wrong  ;)
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: ArmyVern on November 30, 2006, 19:46:16
We are talking about the new desert boot right just the old style ie Bosnia issue, I'm talking about the ones that are designed like the old CWW boot cause if we are......

They are wrong  ;)

We speak of the same boot my friend.  ;)
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: aesop081 on November 30, 2006, 19:48:13
So, if different people like different boots, why dont we do thing "american PX style"

Put half a dozen different boots on the wall and say "pick a kind and take 2 pairs"

?
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: --NES-- on November 30, 2006, 19:51:04
We are talking about the new desert boot right just the old style ie Bosnia/Somolia issue, I'm talking about the ones that are designed like the old CWW boot cause if we are......

They are wrong  ;)


Anyone who likes the 'new' style boots has yet to wear them on a ruck march... and when they have hamburger feet, they'll all go out and get boots that aren't JUNK.

Everyone who got the new boots (on TF3-06) that I knew, either bought new boots (SWATS, Danners, etc) or complained daily about how much their feet hurt.

As HoM said... JUNK!!
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: BulletMagnet on November 30, 2006, 19:54:13
cdnaviator raises a good point why don't we do that, OK just because it would give my Regiments RSM's heart attacks cause we all wont look exactly alike doesn't mean it's not the right idea.
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: ArmyVern on November 30, 2006, 19:55:39
RHFC Piper

Then you would be in the overwhelming majority of those who do not like them.

Some people they do work for though....even after ruck marches.....

And cdnaviator....I agree, but that would just make......what is that word again?
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: aesop081 on November 30, 2006, 19:56:55
cdnaviator raises a good point why don't we do that, OK just because it would give my Regiments RSM's heart attacks cause we all wont look exactly alike doesn't mean it's not the right idea.

Well to illustrate my point, when the first GORTEX(tm) boots were issued in Petawawa for OP HARMONY...we were given the choice between prospectors and Kodiaks......why can we not do that now ?  The RSM 1 RCR didnt seem to collapse from heart failiure then ......And for those who Knew RSM "all tigers, no donkeys" Bentley......
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: BulletMagnet on November 30, 2006, 20:02:46
The RSM 1 RCR didnt seem to collapse from heart failiure then ......

Well I think that was Hodgeson and he was Ex Commando so really all he cared about was doing the darn job or it was Carrier and he was concerned about non issue gloves.

But your right it should choice of foot wear non of this "We have one boot you don't like it you get a chit" that will in the long run save money for the CF I think.
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: aesop081 on November 30, 2006, 20:03:33
Well I think that was Hodgeson and he was Ex Commando so really all he cared about was doing the darn job or it was Carrier and he was concerned about non issue gloves.

But your right it should choice of foot wear non of this "We have one boot you don't like it you get a chit" that will in the long run save money for the CF I think.

CWO "all tigers, no donkeys" Bentley
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: BulletMagnet on November 30, 2006, 20:07:36
I stand corrected what year was this?
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: aesop081 on November 30, 2006, 20:08:21
I stand corrected what year was this?

1994-1995

t'was before your time.....
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: BulletMagnet on November 30, 2006, 20:10:35
Seen
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: Matt_Fisher on November 30, 2006, 20:28:28
I was up in Gagetown the other week poking my nose around clothing stores and there were a TON of the Boulet's, which are being issued to TF-107. 

I'll put in a shameless plug for my employer here  ;D, Wheelers - CP Gear will soon be stocking the Bates M-9 Desert Assault Boot.

If you're unfamiliar with these boots, check out this Lightfighter thread:
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9046084761/m/8991097301/p/1
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: PhilB on November 30, 2006, 21:04:50
Ahh boots, the age old dilemma. I HATE both versions of issued db's. I went through A LOT of boots on 1-06. Expensive yes, but definitely worth it! Soooo here are my points:

1. Magnum Amazon 4 - This was the boot I was originally issued because of a boot chit. It is also the issue boot for the Brits. At first, read while still in Canada, I liked them. Had the speed laces, comfy, good to go. After using them overseas for a month or so my tune changed drastically. The soles have absolutly no support in them, even with SOLE insoles. When walking around KAF you felt every single rock! They also had no ankle support ala the old issue DB's. Got rid of them.

2. When I went home on HLTA I picked up a pair of Desert Swats. I really liked these boots. I bought two pairs and they were great, while they lasted. They were very supportive, as they have a shank, not to hot, decent but not great ankle support, and the same "running shoe feel as the black ones. Myself and 3 other guys in my section had them and all three of ours wore out in about 2months. Seams along the laces blew, the toe cap cam unattached, the interior liner ripped apart. These beat the Magnums and issue Db's hands down but they didnt last.

3. Next I tried the Oakley Desert Assault boots. These are a good deal if you buy them through the military sales program they have, (www.usstandarissue.com) about $90 US. I liked these boots but not as much as the swats. I really liked that they were short. Less pressure on the shins, and less boot coverage so less hot. Also they lasted, I used them for about 7months (I was on a 9 month tour)and they are still in great shape. They were also more comfortable than the Swats, softer more running shoe feeling. The downside to them is I found that the sole's were also to soft. They don't have a shank like the Swats so they are less supportive. They also lacked ankle support. Better than the Magnums, but worse than the swats.

4. Finally I tried the Bates M6 boot. Hands down the best boot I have ever tried, and I'm including black boots in that. They were low, and so again you got the benefits mentioned above. They have an extremely supportive sole, and they are the only kind, out of the boots I tried, that had vibram soles. They have dual lacing, so you can have the uppers and lowers at a different tightness, and they also had the "running shoe" feel. For $89 US they are a steal of a deal. I would highly recommend them and plan on buying two more sets for my next tour (fingers crossed ;) )

As stated by Librarian and others boots are an individual thing, but hopefully this will help someone.
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: Bomber on December 04, 2006, 11:56:21
Another resounding endorsment of the Bates Assault line.  PhilB did you get the Desert version of the M6 or wa sit just the black one?
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: PhilB on December 04, 2006, 12:02:04
I got the Desert version
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: Bomber on December 04, 2006, 12:12:17
I was up in Gagetown the other week poking my nose around clothing stores and there were a TON of the Boulet's, which are being issued to TF-107. 

I'll put in a shameless plug for my employer here  ;D, Wheelers - CP Gear will soon be stocking the Bates M-9 Desert Assault Boot.

If you're unfamiliar with these boots, check out this Lightfighter thread:
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9046084761/m/8991097301/p/1

Matt, Does that mean that I won the "suggestion competition"

Back when that was running I went from the top down, and we are now at the "down" part.  They should be in the mail then right.
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: PhilB on December 04, 2006, 16:04:36
Matt is CP going to be carrying the M6's or is it just going to be the M9's?
Title: Re: Issued Desert Boots?
Post by: Matt_Fisher on December 04, 2006, 21:57:28
At this time we're just going to be carrying the M-9's.  The Canadian rep told us they should arrive within the next week.  Once they're in we'll put them online.  Pricing should be around the $160 mark, which at first glance looks more expensive than our US competitors, when you factor that orders over $99 from Wheelers - CP Gear have free shipping, and compare that to the UPS/FedEx fees (customs brokerage rates they charge can be murderous), the pricing is pretty much in line.

We're also in negotiation to bringing in a European sourced desert boot that rhymes with "Wendall dessert rocks"  ;).  More to follow on that.
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: DesertVengeance on October 31, 2007, 19:38:01
It's all about the boot chit.  I apparently have less than no arches and the issued boots were giving me stress fractures like crazy.  Switched to Danners... Smooth sailing.  I got a pair of desert Danners and i freaking love them.  A little heavy... a little sweaty... but they are tough as hell and you feel like you are wearing weapons on our feet.  I just got a pair of Desert Converse boots... I have yet to put them to the test... but friends who have the black converse boots have been watching them fall apart... so i'm not real enthused.  But in closing... with the amount of time you spend on your feet, I'd highly suggest dropkicking your issued boots into the nearest woodchipper and purchasing a quality pair of boots.  They literally make every minute of every day better.  I know lots of guys who say they don't mind the issued boots...  well for something as essential as boots... i'd rather love them than be able to tolerate them.  To this day, my boots are the best piece of pseudo issued kit i own and definitely the best kit purchases i've made.
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: BulletMagnet on November 02, 2007, 18:34:38
DV

I LOVED my desert Converse and had ZERO issues with them falling apart in fact I know guys on who did their 2nd tour with them and not had a singel issue with them falling apart. I can honestly say I have no idea about the black ones. I have a chit for them but I have recently found a place to get 5.11 boots and I have to say I am very impressed with them as well.
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: obelix on November 05, 2007, 22:51:23
I jjust bought a pait of USMC bates lightweight boots for the 1-08 tour, will see how they hold up

I'd say that they are better than the waffle sole issued ones :threat:
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: mudgunner49 on November 06, 2007, 10:39:16
FWIW, I had the Original SWAT boots and utterly destroyed them in less than 6 months (soles separating, tread breaking down...) but keep in mind that I'm 6'3" and "around" the 250 pound mark.  I've wrecked MkIII's (which also wrecked me) and Altama Desert boots as well as a couple of other brands.

I have a pair of Danner Desert Acadia's that I've had for about a year now and they are by far the best boots that I've ever worn.  In fairness, I also have a pair of 2121 Acadias in black that are on their 2nd sole (which is what led me to buy the desert version), and I have yet to destroy my issue WWB.  I am currently in the process of breaking in a pair of the new issue Boulet boot (Combat Boot GP?? - I can't keep track...) and it feels pretty good after a couple of 10 km hikes over trails (no pavement) with about 25 pounds in an assault pack.

Vern nailed it - nothing out there is going to be a 100% solution...


blake
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: ArmyVern on November 06, 2007, 11:04:56
...
breaking in a pair of the new issue Boulet boot (Combat Boot GP?? - I can't keep track...)
...
Correct.
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: mudgunner49 on November 06, 2007, 17:37:12
Correct.

WooHoo!!!  I'm 2 for 2 today!!  Thanks Vern...


blake
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: obelix on November 14, 2007, 18:48:17
Just received my new USMC Bates lightweight boots, They are already superior to the new Canadian Issue boots for overseas use.

So far they are comfortable and light weight in comparison. :skull:
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: ArmyVern on November 15, 2007, 00:30:40
Glad they work for you.  ;)
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: PuckChaser on November 20, 2007, 15:42:16
I wore the issued Altama boots after a failed attempt to get a chit for at least Vibram desert boots. This lasted about 2 weeks in Garrison, and after the break in time, my feet still ached. Went and bought 2 pairs of Original Swats, and they feel like slippers. Tried out the Altama's in theatre for a day, just to make sure it wasn't just them not being built for Canadian climate, and I could barely walk from the weatherhavens to the Canadian NCE compound (10 minutes). Back on the shelf they went.

I just don't understand how the Army thinks they can have everyone fit one type of boot, with the huge amount of foot sizes and shapes out there. I totally understand the uniformity aspect, but the money used to test/purchase all these different boots could just as easily be put into a pool and give soldiers a boot allowance. I'm pretty sure its a 50/50 split now with issued/non issue boots.

Maybe Vern can help me out with this question. Do you know the issuing policy for the Vibram soled desert boots? I requested them at my initial kitting for Arid gear (Kingston), and they said unless I have a chit on file, I won't get them. However, a few of the guys I deployed with that got kitted out from Ottawa all ended up with the Vibrams...
Title: Re: CF issued desert boots
Post by: ArmyVern on November 20, 2007, 22:53:16
Maybe Vern can help me out with this question. Do you know the issuing policy for the Vibram soled desert boots? I requested them at my initial kitting for Arid gear (Kingston), and they said unless I have a chit on file, I won't get them. However, a few of the guys I deployed with that got kitted out from Ottawa all ended up with the Vibrams...

Right now there are some sizes which are restricted to personnel who will be conducting overseas dismounted ops & patrols.
 
There are some shortages in critical common sizes, so the restriction is on to ensure the boys & gals who'll be doing the deed have priority for them.

There are also some sizes where the only stock left in the system is the ones with the vibram sole. So, either you wear one of the restricted sizes ... or Ottawa only had desert boots with vibram soles in your buds' sizes.

If you have a chit for vibram soles as a medical requirement ... you'll get them too.

(Now, please boys & girls ... -- because it's always the case -- DO NOT run over to your nearest physio/MIR to get a chit if you DO NOT really need vibram soles, but just want them -- because then your only screwing the troops who do need them first, I'd appreciate it, and I'm quite sure most of them would too.)
Title: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: NL_engineer on December 25, 2008, 18:23:37
Advantages and disadvantages of boots vs a "hiker"/shoe maybe something worth looking at in an Army where the boot is considered part of the service culture....

It would be harder to blouse a 4-6" hiker then a 8" boot, and you know you have to have your boots bloused at all times  ::).

I know it would more likely be better in the field; but the people making the decisions are more worried about uniformity not functionality  ::).
Title: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: KevinB on December 25, 2008, 20:04:49
I think boots can have their place - especially when carrying heavy loads over uneven terrain.  However that 'skill' is quickly becoming unneeded, with aerial ressuply and short mission timelines (realistic understandings of what capacity the soldier can function over), and more focus on urban operations.

A lot of SOF units are wearing shoe type footwear to excellent effect, and when you need to run down an insurgent in a foot chase - a large cloddhopper boot is doing you no favors.

  In the last three years I have worn a variety of footwear and while I'm not rucking anywhere - and as of last week, other than some shooting courses I ride a desk - I have been all jocked up in gear, and the shoe has treated me best.
Title: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: reveng on December 25, 2008, 22:45:31
Never mess with the guys wearing the hiking shoes and north face jackets lol.
Title: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: KevinB on December 25, 2008, 23:32:48
Never mess with the guys wearing the hiking shoes and north face jackets lol.

Oakley's and goatees too...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Afghan%20Take%20II/BKR.jpg)
Title: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: YYC Retired on December 26, 2008, 16:26:59
I think boots can have their place - especially when carrying heavy loads over uneven terrain.  However that 'skill' is quickly becoming unneeded, with aerial ressuply and short mission timelines (realistic understandings of what capacity the soldier can function over), and more focus on urban operations.

A lot of SOF units are wearing shoe type footwear to excellent effect, and when you need to run down an insurgent in a foot chase - a large cloddhopper boot is doing you no favors.

  In the last three years I have worn a variety of footwear and while I'm not rucking anywhere - and as of last week, other than some shooting courses I ride a desk - I have been all jocked up in gear, and the shoe has treated me best.

What type of footwear have you found to handle the workload best and which ones would you steer away from???
Title: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: Devlin on December 26, 2008, 17:04:42
Has anyone tried the Oakley combat boots? They appear to be shoe-like in their design, not sure if they are actually any good or just more gucci kit...

Link below for reference:
http://oakley.ca/pd/4299/14014

Title: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: KevinB on December 26, 2008, 22:27:28
I've worn the Oakley Assault Boot, Assault Shoe, Oakley Flak Low (shoe, now discontinued), Oakley  Salomon Expert Mid (now discontinued) Danner Aggitator (now discontinued) Merrell MOAB's - other guys have had great reports with the Merrell Sawtooth's - both of them are still in production.

I am not the biggest fan of the Oakley boot - the sole was too firm for what I wanted, and hated the Assault shoe (due to color - black - I was in Iraq, and two the sole sucked too) 
  I have two other sets of Oakley shoes that are discontinued and I enjoed them as well.

Title: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: Dingle berry on December 26, 2008, 22:35:14
Best boots I ever had were Asolos, I've had 2 pairs and they were amazing.
Title: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: KevinB on December 26, 2008, 22:39:24
If you want boots -- hanwag's
Title: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: YYC Retired on December 27, 2008, 00:32:06
Thanks for the feedback I-6.... always good to get up to date reviews on useful kit that actually works....

Stay Safe
Title: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: BinRat55 on December 27, 2008, 14:30:34
If you want boots -- hanwag's clothing stores...

No, really - you are not authorized to wear any other boot while in uniform (some exceptions apply - but not many...)
Title: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: NL_engineer on December 27, 2008, 15:35:23
No, really - you are not authorized to wear any other boot while in uniform (some exceptions apply - but not many...)

Well the issued desert boots must be the best, when your COC recommend that we invest in better desert boots  ::)
Title: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: KevinB on December 27, 2008, 17:18:41
No, really - you are not authorized to wear any other boot while in uniform (some exceptions apply - but not many...)

I think I spent more than 7 years in the CF wearing non issue boots, but I appreciate your comments  ::)
Title: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: NL_engineer on December 27, 2008, 17:38:51
If you want boots -- hanwag's

What kind of desert boot would you recommend (they have to be at least 8"high to keep the COC happy) ?
Title: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: Infanteer on December 28, 2008, 01:15:26
No, really - you are not authorized to wear any other boot while in uniform (some exceptions apply - but not many...)

 ::)

You obviously haven't been to my part of the Army....
Title: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: BinRat55 on December 28, 2008, 10:18:27
::)

You obviously haven't been to my part of the Army....

Lol - and what part would that be?
Title: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: BinRat55 on December 28, 2008, 10:24:28
I think I spent more than 7 years in the CF wearing non issue boots, but I appreciate your comments  ::)

And I think i've spent 20 following orders and enforcing regs - so my comments are valid, but thanks for your appreciation.
Title: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on December 28, 2008, 10:47:53
And I think i've spent 20 following orders and enforcing regs - so my comments are valid, but thanks for your appreciation.


With all possible respect, BinRat55 you are in danger of being seen as that mule about which Fredrick the Great mused when he said:

"A mule who has carried a pack for ten campaigns under Prince Eugene will be no better tactician for it, and it must be confessed, to the disgrace of humanity, that many men grow old in an otherwise respectable profession without making any greater progress than this mule.

To follow the routine of the service, to become occupied with the care of its fodder and lodging, to march when the army marches, camp when it camps, fight when it fights--for the great majority of officers this is what is meant by having served, campaigned, grown gray in the harness. For this reason one sees so many soldiers occupied with trifling matters and rusted by gross ignorance. Instead of soaring audaciously among the clouds, such men know only how to crawl methodically in the mire. They are never perplexed and will never know the causes of their triumphs or defeats."
(Source: Luvaas (ed) "Frederick the Great on the Art of War," New York, 1966, p. 47)

In my military experience, approaching 40 years, soldiers have always tried to make themselves more effective, more efficient and more comfortable - despite the good, not so good and too often crumby equipment on issue. My guess is that most of them want to and will continue to do so - despite whole bloody bookcases full of "orders and regs," the bulk of which are, thankfully, never read (much less enforced) by anyone at all.

There are some good reasons for enforcing some equipment standards, including some standards for some personal kit. There are, also, some good reasons for ignoring the best ideas/wishes of officialdom and adapting whatever is available to the task at hand. Sadly it falls, mostly, to the infantryman - far away from a warm, dry, regulation filled, fixed base - to be the one who must do the adapting. Perhaps, on reflection, it's not so sad; perhaps what's sad is that so many people - with no dog in the fight - want to complicate (unnecessarily) his already difficult, dangerous, dirty and uncomfortable life.
Title: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: BinRat55 on December 28, 2008, 11:22:01
Mr. Campbell,

While your words are quite eloquent and your quotes are sharp, you and I have had this discussion before. I've no wish to stand toe to toe with a man of your experience - but hear this - 40 years ago the army was a different time. Even 20 years ago we were a different sort of beast. Today shows a style of adaptation the likes of which you and I have never seen before. But it don't change the fact that rules are in place for a reason. No one person, myself included, will ever agree to all of them, but everyone who signs on that dotted line, myself included, will follow them. There is a right way and a wrong way to question authority and in your day when authority was questioned people were shot. Today they are rewarded and it makes me ill.

I do have a dog in the fight - actually I have two dogs - and they wear issued boots.
Title: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: BulletMagnet on December 28, 2008, 11:36:03
Perhaps he does not...

But I do

There is maybe a reason that individuals and units on a whole have moved past the issue only system. The major reason is perhaps the simplest ISSUE boots do not work! Yes you can over time force the feet to adapt to them like they did in the "Good Ole Days of the Army" which is JUNK!

Why do SOF units not enforce the issue boots? and I will trump this card now it's not LCF or the need to be different it's because they allow their troops to investigate the boots or shoe that works best for them and makes them more comfortable and effective. The grand high mucky mucks of the CF (You know those guys that have been in for 30+ years and who lord their cubicle as their own universe) loathe the idea that their little world can be shattered and their usefulness erased by some Cpl in line unit saying "Are you nuts these blisters tell me this isn't going to work" and lo and behold the MO agreed!

There is also the CANFORGEN which states at CO discretion that a soldier can wear boots of any type so long as they are 8" in ankle length and black and bought at the soldiers expense....
Title: Re: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on December 28, 2008, 11:58:18
Mr. Campbell,

While your words are quite eloquent and your quotes are sharp, you and I have had this discussion before. I've no wish to stand toe to toe with a man of your experience - but hear this - 40 years ago the army was a different time. Even 20 years ago we were a different sort of beast. Today shows a style of adaptation the likes of which you and I have never seen before. But it don't change the fact that rules are in place for a reason. No one person, myself included, will ever agree to all of them, but everyone who signs on that dotted line, myself included, will follow them. There is a right way and a wrong way to question authority and in your day when authority was questioned people were shot. Today they are rewarded and it makes me ill.

I do have a dog in the fight - actually I have two dogs - and they wear issued boots.


With, yet again, all possible respect, BinRat55, I guess I do, too, have a “dog in the fight:” my son is serving and his situation is often uncomfortable, cold, wet and dangerous – frequently dangerous when there is no enemy present.

Even though I have been long retired and even though my son doesn’t complain to me, I am certain that his life is also unduly complicated by the (only occasional, to be sure) mindless enforcement of ill-considered, often out of date, “orders and regs” – some of which may do more than just increase his discomfort. Fortunately he is in a part of the CF that understands the vast difference between “orders” and “regulations” and, further, understands that, on rare occasions, the former must be interpreted and that, usually, the latter are, really, guidance to help sensible commanders get their jobs done in the most effective, efficient and even comfortable manner possible.

Secondly, the army has not changed all that much in nearly a half century. Soldiers are, to be sure, much better equipped that we were – even though some soldiers have scant regard for the utility of some of their equipment. But the fact is that the army has always recognized that none of its kit was or is perfect – that’s why there exists, even today, a system for soldiers to report deficiencies and to recommend changes. Some soldiers are a bit quicker to see the need for change than is the system and many of them are a wee bit impatient – especially when their comfort, their combat effectiveness and even their very lives may be at risk.

I’m sure it is frustrating to see so many soldiers putting aside expensive, thoroughly tested and approved kit in favour of something that may well be or may just appear to be flavour of the month. But that doesn’t mean that the “so many” are all wrong, all the time.

We should all be a bit flexible in our thinking – especially when we are thinking of the people at the sharp end: on ships, in FOBs and in aircraft.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Spandrel on December 28, 2008, 12:19:06
X
Title: Re: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: BinRat55 on December 28, 2008, 12:33:44
Perhaps he does not...

But I do

There is maybe a reason that individuals and units on a whole have moved past the issue only system. The major reason is perhaps the simplest ISSUE boots do not work! Yes you can over time force the feet to adapt to them like they did in the "Good Ole Days of the Army" which is JUNK!

Why do SOF units not enforce the issue boots? and I will trump this card now it's not LCF or the need to be different it's because they allow their troops to investigate the boots or shoe that works best for them and makes them more comfortable and effective. The grand high mucky mucks of the CF (You know those guys that have been in for 30+ years and who lord their cubicle as their own universe) loathe the idea that their little world can be shattered and their usefulness erased by some Cpl in line unit saying "Are you nuts these blisters tell me this isn't going to work" and lo and behold the MO agreed!

There is also the CANFORGEN which states at CO discretion that a soldier can wear boots of any type so long as they are 8" in ankle length and black and bought at the soldiers expense....

Can you point me in the direction of this CANFORGEN??
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: BinRat55 on December 28, 2008, 12:48:38
That's how I take this sort of thing.  Regulations and policies exist to assist and guide the Commander in exercising his perogative and following his orders to accomplish the mission.

Too many people forget that - I remember previous excellent posts you made about the differences in 'staff-centric' vs 'command-centric' organizations.  While we claim to be "command-centric" I fear that in most cases, the CF is only paying lip service and whitewashing over a very strong bureaucratically-minded staff-focused system where "I can't do anything to help, it's the system" and "well, the CO can't authorize that, there's a policy right here..." etc etc.

Sometimes policies and regulations are wrong  and hinder  the Commander's efforts.

I will be the first person to say yes when I can. I have been there and have issued to the finest soldiers in theatre - and not once has a soldier "needed" something on my watch if I had it - scales do not mean much to me overseas. I am 100% behind Vern for the proverbial "Boot allowance". But all i'm trying to say is that soldiers should not be going out and buying their own uniforms - boots included. The system will never change for the better and pretty soon even verbal orders will be taken as "suggestions".

I'm as frustrated with the supply system as the next person, but we are doing better. You all ask us to walk in your shoes for a bit, but no one wants to get behind the counter and do the work to improve the system, do they? I may not have ever been on a front line, but I have done my time in four different countries - in and outside the wire - and can tell you that we need a better supply system AND an attitude adjustment.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: BulletMagnet on December 28, 2008, 12:48:46
REF: Canadian Forces Supply Manual Vol 3, Ch 13, Sec G, Art 002, para5e. (CFSM 3-13G-002.5e)

e.   Individuals whose foot size falls within the range of standard catalogue sizes and who do not accept the service footwear shall be advised to obtain footwear from other sources at their own expense. To ensure uniformity and quality of dress, CF personnel shall select commercial footwear that conforms as closely as possible to the standards of the regulation footwear.  
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: MCG on December 28, 2008, 12:54:57
BulletMagnet,
You will find that that provision has been removed from the manual:
It appears the "Buy your own boots if you don't like the issued ones.", exemption is no longer available.  I just looked at the Supply Manual (http://dgmssc.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dmpp_apps/SupplyManual/WebHelp/index.htm) today and the para relating to that is gone:
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: E.R. Campbell on December 28, 2008, 13:06:16
That's how I take this sort of thing.

Regulations and policies exist to assist and guide the Commander in exercising his perogative and following his orders to accomplish the mission.

Too many people forget that - I remember previous excellent posts you made about the differences in 'staff-centric' vs 'command-centric' organizations.  While we claim to be "command-centric" I fear that in most cases, the CF is only paying lip service and whitewashing over a very strong bureaucratically-minded staff-focused system where "I can't do anything to help, it's the system" and "well, the CO can't authorize that, there's a policy right here..." etc etc.

Sometimes policies and regulations are wrong  and hinder  the Commander's efforts.

You just reminded me of a discussion No. 1 Son (my “dog in the fight”) and I had a while back. He was telling me that he adhered to an old, old (and good, in my opinion) rule: "Only I (the boss) can say 'No'."

As we were talking, he had just reminded his subordinated that they could agree to pretty much anything that was within their area of responsibility and capabilities. They could, indeed should always say 'Yes' if they could do the job. If the job was beyond their scope/capabilities or if they felt a need to say 'No' then they had to pass the request with their recommendation (with reasons) up the CoC until, eventually, it reached No. 1 Son's immaculate desk (from which, I imagine he removed his (steward polished) shiny shoes) whereupon he decides if a 'No' is really warranted or necessary.

I recall this lesson from 40+ years ago when I was temporarily appointed to be Assistant Adjutant (punishment, maybe?). My CO was a stickler for "Everyone can say 'Yes" but only I can say 'No'." It gave subordinate commanders (OCs) tremendous freedom. That particular CO was never unhappy to see an empty parade square and an empty MT compound - he was always happy to see soldiers out of garrison doing something and, hopefully, having fun in the process. (He was also convinced that having fun ≈ working very hard but that working hard for no good purpose ≠ fun.) As a good general rule the staff should not be allowed to say ‘No’ – that should be a command responsibility – a “wait out” (while I ask the boss) is acceptable provided it is followed, shortly by either a ‘Yes’ or the boss, himself (maybe herself nowadays),  saying ‘No.’

--------------------

Can you feel another topic split coming on?

Title: Re: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: Loachman on December 28, 2008, 13:12:24
everyone who signs on that dotted line, myself included, will follow them.

You presume too much.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: PuckChaser on December 28, 2008, 13:56:45
New desert boots are the only part of my kit that I will never part with due to a "no non-issue kit rule". I'd rather take the charge for NDA129 and Disobeying a Lawful command over destroying my feet and shins in boots that absolutely do not work for me. Its not a slight at the Supply system, or the very capable techs that work long hours to make sure we all have the basic compliment of equipment to do our job. Whoever does the procurement for the boots is horribly failing the soldiers in the field. I personally can't imagine walking around in the Altama boots (I'm can't get a chit so I can't try the Boulet boots) for an entire 6 month tour.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: reveng on December 28, 2008, 14:21:11
I'd rather take the charge for NDA129 and Disobeying a Lawful command over destroying my feet and shins in boots that absolutely do not work for me.

I hear ya. I had no problem getting a chit for boots, and still can't get what the big deal is. From what I've seen, real NCO's/staff don't even care on courses these days, as long as it's black!
Title: Re: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: Infanteer on December 28, 2008, 14:24:11
Lol - and what part would that be?

The part of the Army where proper footwear can mean the difference between becoming a casualty (or at least ineffective) and winning the battle.  I'm not going to rehash the argument on feet and boots, as it's been done to death, but each foot has its own requirements.

It's also the part of the Army where the senior officers wear effective footwear and allow their soldiers to do the same.

So don't worry about us...we're doing just fine.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Simian Turner on December 28, 2008, 21:11:27
When a Cdn Comd RC(S) and his personal Cdn staff are wearing the Dutch desert boots, I say let's get comfortable.  Been there - done that.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: KevinB on December 29, 2008, 00:05:50
Those Meindl Desert Fox boots are very very nice.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: MikeH on December 29, 2008, 00:27:41
Quote
I hear ya. I had no problem getting a chit for boots, and still can't get what the big deal is. From what I've seen, real NCO's/staff don't even care on courses these days, as long as it's black!
When I was with 1PPCLI for TF108 the CO told us that he didn't care what we ***** on our feet as long as they were black.I used SWAT's liked them a lot, for the price they are decent.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: zipperhead_cop on December 29, 2008, 10:04:01
When I was with 1PPCLI for TF108 the CO told us that he didn't care what we *****  on our feet as long as they were black.I used SWAT's liked them a lot, for the price they are decent.

A most excellent misspelling  :D
I have two pairs of 511's that the Queen bought for me when I made the proper snivelling sounds.  However, I was really snivelling after I had to break them in and pretty much destroyed my heels three times.  As well  after two months they were already starting to fall apart.  Ripped lining, penetrated toe caps, breaking laces. 
I also have a pair of Danner TFX's that I will probably have a hard time not wearing around the house when I get back. 
If it is tan, and it is boot-ish, it appears to be okay.  And I agree that when the CoC wears all issued kit then maybe there might be some pressure to conform inside the wire.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: aquasaurus on June 01, 2009, 15:37:39
Although I actually don't mind the new Boulet desert boots (I think they are a big improvement on their predecessors), I still wanted something a little lighter and more comfortable as an alternative while I am over there. I recently picked up a set of Rocky S2V 101's, which I am really happy with. They seem to be built a lot nicer than the SWAT's or the Oakleys (neither of which was I very impressed with - the Oakleys were comfy, but felt like basketball shoes).  They have a nice speedlacing system, and the newer, wrap-around Vibram sole. I think these ran a shade over $200 Cdn.

(http://www.shoebuy.com/pi/rocky/rocky225299_127882_jb.jpg)

I also still have my British desert boots from when I was on exchange and took a British dive team to the Gulf, and they are fairly light and comfortable, so I will probably bring them as an alternative as well.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: 40below on June 01, 2009, 16:24:59
I'll put in a plug for Wellcos. I was given a pair before I went to Afgh by someone who bought a pair prior to his roto and left them here because he didn't like the way they fit. I figured I'd wear them and send them to Goodwill when I got back but they turned out to be one of the most comfortable boots I've ever worn, and I still wear them a few times a week - they go fine with khakis and have a low profile that doesn't look like an army boot (my work doesn't require me to blouse my trousers  ;D) Very comfortable, and they wear like iron.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Soldier1stTradesman2nd on June 01, 2009, 19:50:41
Although I actually don't mind the new Boulet desert boots (I think they are a big improvement on their predecessors), I still wanted something a little lighter and more comfortable as an alternative while I am over there. I recently picked up a set of Rocky S2V 101's, which I am really happy with. They seem to be built a lot nicer than the SWAT's or the Oakleys (neither of which was I very impressed with - the Oakleys were comfy, but felt like basketball shoes).  They have a nice speedlacing system, and the newer, wrap-around Vibram sole. I think these ran a shade over $200 Cdn.

(http://www.shoebuy.com/pi/rocky/rocky225299_127882_jb.jpg)

I also still have my British desert boots from when I was on exchange and took a British dive team to the Gulf, and they are fairly light and comfortable, so I will probably bring them as an alternative as well.

Rockys - source?
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: MCG on June 02, 2009, 13:50:36
... I actually don't mind the new Boulet desert boots (I think they are a big improvement on their predecessors) ...
Are you refering to the new brown ones?
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: aquasaurus on June 02, 2009, 15:08:21
Rockys - source?

I got them locally at a military / surplus / hiking store here in Kinsgton, but your best bet would be checking with the company and seeing if their website lists dealers in your area.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: aquasaurus on June 02, 2009, 15:11:38
Are you refering to the new brown ones?

Yes, the new arid ones - I had a set of the previous ones, and it was like the insole was made of cardboard or something. It got all warped and out of shape the first time they got wet. The new ones do seem heavy though, and I haven't worn them in any really hot weather yet (I will be breaking them in over the summer in Victoria, but it doesn't get all that hot. My British ones (which are a similar style to the older Cdn arid boots) are nicer. When I was in Germany on course recently a lot of the European guys had the Meindl boots, which also seemed really good.
Title: Re: Desert boots (from: Quick Snap)
Post by: Towards_the_gap on June 02, 2009, 15:42:09
::)

You obviously haven't been to my part of the Army....

Or mine...... non-issue boots are nowadays, in the field army, a non-issue. I RARELY see issue boots these days, everyone buys lowas, 5.11's, SWATs or Magnums, and nothing is said. If there is anyone who seriously takes offence at this, I say, please, get a life. There are more important things to worry about. Should I ever fail to do my job because my feet are in tatters because of non-issue boots, well then charge me. But that will never happen, as like every other trained, experienced soldier, I know a good pair of boots when I wear them, and will not wear junk in the field. This is why we don't allow recruits to buy their own boots, they do not know what is good for them.

But back on topic, should any of you find yourselves in the UK on course or on holiday, I would recommend a trip to Richmond, N. Yorkshire (Northern England), makers of excellent boots in the same style as Meindl/Lowa, but considerably lighter and harderwearing, and with a number of varieties

http://www.altberg.co.uk/Web/military.jsp (http://www.altberg.co.uk/Web/military.jsp)
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: WB on June 02, 2009, 17:40:52
Quote
I recently picked up a set of Rocky S2V 101's, which I am really happy with. They seem to be built a lot nicer than the SWAT's or the Oakleys (neither of which was I very impressed with - the Oakleys were comfy, but felt like basketball shoes).  They have a nice speedlacing system, and the newer, wrap-around Vibram sole. I think these ran a shade over $200 Cdn.

I've been wearing Rocky S2Vs  since last fall. One word: fukinawsome.

Half the guys in my unit are wearing them, with excellent things to say both in Canada and overseas. The RSM was one of the first guys sporting a pair.

Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Rider Pride on June 02, 2009, 23:12:10
I've been wearing Rocky S2Vs  since last fall. One word: fukinawsome.

Had mine for a yr.

I agree with your comment above and wish to add the adjective "freakingly" in front of it.

What I particularly like is the fact that a pair of Rocky SV2 weight less than 1 of the new issued boot.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: NL_engineer on June 05, 2009, 12:47:59
Well one pair om my issued desert boots is in KAF locked away in a seacan somewhere, not to be seen till the end of tour (only brought, because I had to).  I think the other set is home in a box somewhere.

The new ones do seem heavy though...

They weigh almost as much as my laptop.


Or mine...... non-issue boots are nowadays, in the field army, a non-issue. I RARELY see issue boots these days, everyone buys lowas, 5.11's, SWATs or Magnums, and nothing is said. If there is anyone who seriously takes offence at this, I say, please, get a life. There are more important things to worry about....
http://www.altberg.co.uk/Web/military.jsp (http://www.altberg.co.uk/Web/military.jsp)

They still exist, I ran into one in KAF, a few weeks ago when I was their.  I told him I forgot them in the FOB, so he would skip the how only issued kit should be used speech (good thing my chest rig was left in the vehicle).
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Loachman on June 05, 2009, 13:34:13

They still exist, I ran into one in KAF, a few weeks ago when I was their.

Amazing. Did you hunt for this fellow for long? Most of my Flight wore non-issue boots, as did a sizeable portion of the KAF-bound CF population, and I never heard of anybody getting hassled for doing so.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: NL_engineer on June 05, 2009, 13:59:02
Amazing. Did you hunt for this fellow for long? Most of my Flight wore non-issue boots, as did a sizeable portion of the KAF-bound CF population, and I never heard of anybody getting hassled for doing so.

No, we ran into him wile in the line of an establishment that will remain unnamed.  Well when there are people in KAF that have nothing better to do it dosen't surprise me.  It was funny tho, he had buttons undone, and a gut that hung out from under his combats; and to make it better, he was using a NON-issued holster for his Hi-Power.


I should have asked you to tell the supply guys to send me your 9mm, I was told the one I was going to get went to someone in KAF that needs it more for his desk job.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Soldier1stTradesman2nd on June 05, 2009, 22:54:05
Makes a very good paperweight, especially with the breeze from all the air conditioners.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Rider Pride on June 06, 2009, 09:04:23
Yeah, they really need to start issuing Arid pattern fleece to fight the chill. It gets cold when you are working in front of an AC all day.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: zipperhead_cop on June 16, 2009, 10:20:37
If people in KAF didn't wear pistols, then it might seem like it wasn't all that dangerous.  If it isn't all that dangerous, you don't get danger pay.  So you wear a gun in order to prove how dangerous it is.  See?  War is hell, even in the suburban shopping plaza that KAF has become. 
I bet these kit heros only pick on junior NCO's as well.  The only flack I ever took was overhearing two morons standing in that same line up mentioned who seemed incensed that my arid bush cap was dead flat in the rim, like a Smokey Bear hat (which was intentional). The one clown was snickering at how new my hat looked.  Yeah, Dink.  It is new.  I usually wear this thing called a "helmet".  Ever heard of it?   ::)
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: PuckChaser on June 16, 2009, 13:25:38
Those same guys probably still have the green covers on their helmets...
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: NL_engineer on June 30, 2009, 07:38:11
We keep suggesting new things for KAF, as they don't want to put things in our FOB (because the KAFer's need it more  ::)).  We have already asked for a Bowling Ally and Swimming Pool.  We figure we'll get to use it once every 5 or 6 weeks when we make a trip into KAF.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Hamish Seggie on June 30, 2009, 08:08:07
I have to laugh (sorry, giggle) at this.
We keep suggesting new things for KAF, as they don't want to put things in our FOB (because the KAFer's need it more  ::)).  We have already asked for a Bowling Ally and Swimming Pool.  We figure we'll get to use it once every 5 or 6 weeks when we make a trip into KAF.

I see things haven't changed much. We couldn't get desert boots in Bosnia in 97 until the tour was almost over, the unit I was in was 2PPCLI. The NSE at VK had them though, plus A/C for every ISO. Hmmmm.....

Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: amelia on December 30, 2010, 02:48:31
Swimming pool is good for refreshment. So, it is good to have built it earlier for the convenience of many. This will give improvement for the entire area.
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: AustralianNavyGuy on March 07, 2013, 18:36:28
KAF is a total joke...had some Marines think it was fun to pick on our navy's "new" camo...thinking that our unit was a trial unit for it......what is even more funny is that they still think that we were some sorta "special" unit ...ala SASR or Commando (our Hydrographic team was quite small for that Rot)
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: Dimsum on March 08, 2013, 08:20:29
KAF is a total joke...had some Marines think it was fun to pick on our navy's "new" camo...thinking that our unit was a trial unit for it......what is even more funny is that they still think that we were some sorta "special" unit ...ala SASR or Commando (our Hydrographic team was quite small for that Rot)

Serious question:  Why did the RAN have a hydrographic team in KAF? 
Title: Re: Desert Boots
Post by: AustralianNavyGuy on March 18, 2013, 04:56:18
You know....going through the place...and helping with the MTF4 Topigraphical unit to train some ANA tolay do their job :)
Title: Combat boot dress policy
Post by: Adam on June 24, 2018, 21:15:42
What is the consensus here for wearing the new style (2006) issued desert boots?

 I see more non-issued black and brown boots being worn daily than issued boots.  I haven't seen anyone wearing else wearing their desert boots, even with the current shortage.