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The Parade Square => Military Administration => Occupational and Component Transfers => Topic started by: cameron_highlander on November 27, 2004, 18:29:25

Title: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: cameron_highlander on November 27, 2004, 18:29:25
Yet another silly question from me. I'm considering changing my trade from musician to infantry for two reasons. One, I want to make sure I get on SQ and I want to do my BIQ. Two, in all likelyhood I will be moving out of Ottawa to go to university elsewhere (probably Guelph). Regardless, the universities I am considering do not (to my knowledge) have any units nearby that have a pipes and drums. There is however, a log unit and an artillery unit (again, to the best of my knowledge) and I figure that they could find a job for an infantryman without alot of annoyance as opposed to trying to find a job for a pure bandsman. Two questions, should I get off my arse and change my trade now (halfway through BMQ) as opposed to waiting until I finish BMQ? And second, will it reflect badly upon myself if I have to stay in Ottawa and after I come back from the summer and spend a few months in the company I decide to swtich back into the P+D and do my QL3 music course the next summer? I want to get my infantry training all done so I can be useful in more positions if needed, but if I have the opportunity to I wish to be able to go back to the P+D (I live for my bagpipes :P). Thanks alot folks, I'm in a catch here, but I changed my plans for uni just as of late and I'm trying to back paddle and re-orient myself here. Thanks.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eowyn on November 29, 2004, 14:32:37
Yet another silly question from me. I'm considering changing my trade from musician to infantry for two reasons. One, I want to make sure I get on SQ and I want to do my BIQ. Two, in all likelyhood I will be moving out of Ottawa to go to university elsewhere (probably Guelph). Regardless, the universities I am considering do not (to my knowledge) have any units nearby that have a pipes and drums. There is however, a log unit and an artillery unit (again, to the best of my knowledge) and I figure that they could find a job for an infantryman without alot of annoyance as opposed to trying to find a job for a pure bandsman. Two questions, should I get off my arse and change my trade now (halfway through BMQ) as opposed to waiting until I finish BMQ? And second, will it reflect badly upon myself if I have to stay in Ottawa and after I come back from the summer and spend a few months in the company I decide to swtich back into the P+D and do my QL3 music course the next summer? I want to get my infantry training all done so I can be useful in more positions if needed, but if I have the opportunity to I wish to be able to go back to the P+D (I live for my bagpipes :P). Thanks alot folks, I'm in a catch here, but I changed my plans for uni just as of late and I'm trying to back paddle and re-orient myself here. Thanks.

I can't fully answer your questions but here's my thoughts.  Being a musician is a more restrictive trade, especially being a piper.  Would it be possible to be an infanteer and volunteer for the band?

Being in a Svc Bn, there isn't much for an infantry soldier to really do except as GD or sentry.  Most of our soldiers wouldn't like doing that all of the time.

All reserve trades must take SQ.

Also, IIRC, you have to stay in the trade that you switched to for a minimum amount of time (which escapes me) before you can apply to switch back.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 29, 2004, 17:49:47
An infantryman wouldn't be any more attractive for them to employ then a musician... they'd still have to retrain you to a trade they can use... consider instead of infantry maybe MSE op or Supply Tech. All units are able to use those happy fellows.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eowyn on November 29, 2004, 19:30:16
Staying in one trade for a minimum ammount of time is not a huge deal for me, I want to do the infantry thing for a while anyways. Now, does this minimum time thing apply to me now (seeing as I haven't even finished my BMQ) or can I switch trades (same regiment, different company) now if I get out and do it. Again, I figure that being a trained infantryman would make me a more attractive person to employ than a BMQ-qualified only musicien. And thats what I need right now, employability, considering where I want to go there aren't any pipe bands within a reasonable distance.  

I think you misunderstood me for the minimum time.  If you switched to Infantry, you would have to stay a minimum time in that before being allowed to switch back to musician.  This is dependent on whether I was right with the minimum time thing to begin with.

Being a trained infantryman doesn't increase your employability unless you are going to an Infantry unit.  If you are looking at a full time job, as a Reservist, I would recommend RMS clerk.  On a part time basis, almost all units require storesmen (Supply tech) or clerks (RMS).
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: l8joiner on December 05, 2005, 18:55:03
Can anyone tell me if it is possible to remuster while in BMQ?  I'm just looking for some general information and would appreciate anything that you can tell me.

Thanks
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: kincanucks on December 05, 2005, 19:49:06
Before I give you an answer I need to know why you are asking?
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: geo on December 05, 2005, 19:52:20
Reserve or Reg?
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: l8joiner on December 06, 2005, 16:42:01
Reg
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: geo on December 06, 2005, 18:27:49
good question.
when you went thru the recruiting process, you chose a couple of trades you'd like to go into - by order of preference and they then made you an offer based on your choice. They scheduled you on your course based on your choice - making every effort to dovetail your training so it's back to back - BQ, SQ & DP1 TQ....
If you were allowed to make changes then there is a real possibility that a DP1 trade course position would remain vacant - potentialy denying someone else who'se been deferred to the next course.... AND you could end up cooling your heels in a holding platoon in this other occupation.

IMHO, you can ask - but the people aren't necessarily going to be happy and they aren't required to cater to your whim.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: nelson007 on December 06, 2005, 20:43:12
Its poss. because it happened while I was in BMQ end of 2003.
But the people running the show gave recruits the chance to pick the 3 or 4 trades that were open at that time.
Some guys went from army soldier to navy tech trade overnight with little trouble because "they" made it happened.
Highly unlikely they will comply if a recruits asks for a new trade in the middle of basic--They have enough on their plates already.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: geo on December 06, 2005, 20:52:11
As I indicated, the CF would hate having to pay for someone to be in a holding platoon for a couple of months because of a trade change and there being no immediate plans to run desired trade course before 6-12 months.

Once the course has started, you're pretty much committed.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: RowdyBowdy on December 10, 2005, 13:54:16
They let people in my BMQ remuster around the 4th or 5th week but there was a limited amount of trades available to remuster to.  My advice is don't join unless you are interested in the trade you are signed up for.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: HADES 1962 on December 10, 2005, 14:23:12
Interesting a remuster during BMQ?
I have racked my brain to remember if during my basic training in Cornwallis if a remuster was allowed or even granted for that matter.
Maybe some of the members who joined in the early 80's or 90's would be able to answer?
As Geo stated your selection process takes into consideration a training time line to fall into place as quickly as possible to each other BMQ, SQ, QL etc.
As for getting into the forces at BMQ and finding out, "hey that trade would be cooler".
Well you did choose your trades selection before you were given a offer.
The real question would be why do you want to remuster should be asked?
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Zombie on December 10, 2005, 14:52:54
Well you did choose your trades selection before you were given a offer.

Yes, and you are supposed to only choose trades that you are willing and prepared to do. If you want to remuster out of a trade during BMQ, it should have never been on the application.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: l8joiner on December 10, 2005, 21:26:03
Well I would like to thank everyone who answered me.  As I originally stated, it was just a question that I would like some general information on.  I didn't need anyone assuming that the trade that I joined for is not what I want, it is.  I was just curious. 

For anyone who was interested, they changed the rules this past summer and you can no longer remuster while at BMQ even though before that you could. 

That was all I needed to hear as there was some debate over the matter here.

Mods, you can lock this now since I did find the information that I was looking for.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: ptelaz on March 25, 2008, 20:13:40
I was a reservest for about 8 months in an infintry unit and I loved the military so much I wanted to join reg force so I went to the recruiting center to sign papers they asked me if I wanted to stay in the same trade and I told them no I wanted to switch to firefighting and they told me I wouldn't be able to get in for a long time and I should just go in as infintry and remuster so I am still on basic and I probably won't be able to remuster untill after this course but I wrote a memo to the CO and asked anyway and I was told even after BMQ I'd still have to spend 90 days in my trade before I can switch just to make sure I like it. I wasn't trades qualified when I was a reservest but I had my BMQ and went on all exs even if I couldn't partake in them just to watch and learn does anyone have an suggestions of what I would be able to do as far as getting out of infintry into firefighting?
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: dangerboy on March 25, 2008, 20:20:25
A bit off topic but the trade is spelled INFANTRY.  Now back to your post it is a bit confusing, just to clarify are you now on a Reg force Infantry course? 
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: ptelaz on March 25, 2008, 20:23:41
Ya sorry I am typing on a phone since I don't have a computer but no I am on basic again and yes it is a reg force bmq
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: zorro on March 25, 2008, 21:27:47
Do you have any volunteer time with a fire dept. in your home town? Showing that you have interest in your requested MOC prior to entering Reg. force may be of some assistance...
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: ptelaz on March 25, 2008, 21:42:20
I was berifly in school for fire oritection engineering technollogy till I desided to join the military I didn't complete a semester though I don't think that would count for anything
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: zorro on March 25, 2008, 21:50:15
The only other advice from me would be make sure your OT memo and affiliated paperwork are free of grammatical errors.

I know your using a phone to post your messages, and its no big deal on these forums, but make sure it doesn't carry over to the professional side of things.

No offense intended. ;)
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: ptelaz on March 25, 2008, 22:05:17
Oh my memo was perfect I wasn't going to have any mistakes since it was going to the CO that would have made me look really bad and he probably wouldn't even read it. And no offence taken I am already set for tomorrow and were allowed to use our cellphones
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Dean Thompson on April 04, 2008, 11:53:13
Minimum 4 years in trade before you can even apply for OT. Recruiters will blow smoke up your arse to get you to sign on. I think you were duped.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 04, 2008, 21:24:04
Minimum 4 years in trade before you can even apply for OT. Recruiters will blow smoke up your arse to get you to sign on. I think you were duped.

That is not the case if you are not QL3 qualified, in which case it is an MOC Reassignment being sought, IAW CFA0 11-12 Para 6.  CFAO 11-12 Para 8 also has info on this.

Instead of guessing, try looking at the actual CFAOs or applicable official CF policy.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/011-12_e.asp


PteLaz,  if you are on a phone, you need to get to a computer and print of copy of CFAO 11-12 or ask for a copy thru your CoC and other applicable regs as laid out in the CFAO, read them and start there.  If you are not QL3 qual'd, your memo should be requesting a MOC Reassignment.  Good luck.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: NeonStrides on June 10, 2008, 20:06:38
Eye in the Sky is correct in that it would be a Voluntary Occupational Reassignment (VOR) if you are not QL3 qluaified, however before you go through the effort of trying for a VOR, you will need to see if Firefighter is Red Trade. (Right now I don't think it is). If it is then you will have next to no chance to get a VOR. There are no guarantees, even if it is not red, but you will need to submit a Memo, go for a BPSO Interview, see what trades they offer you and then if you are offered a VOR, hope that DMCA 5 can accommodate the request - it does happen sometimes...

When you went to the Recruiting Centre, you signed a form called a CF 93 - one of the clauses there discusses no trade re-assignmment for 4 years and also specifically states that you cannot normally do a VOR. CFRG have gone to great lengths recently to stop the old way of insinuating or even stating that you can switch later after BMQ and take these sorts of allegations very seriously. (Of course this only works if as you read what you sign ;D)
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: BMQ on December 17, 2008, 12:30:21
Hey,

While going into BMQ I chose a combat trade, now i'm thinking a non-combat trade would be much more suitable for me. I was advised I need to wait until my new posting and then submit a memo to remuster once i'm out of BMQ... Have any of you had experiance with this? Do you know if a remuster directly after BMQ is possible, or if it is likely to go through and me be able to switch trades? Or am I kinda stuck with the  one I originally chose from the start? Any advice is appreciated. Thanks.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: PMedMoe on December 17, 2008, 13:01:50
Just a note:  If you are not trade qualified, it would not be a remuster but a trade re-assignment.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: CountDC on December 17, 2008, 13:36:14
CFAO 11-5

OCCUPATION REASSIGNMENTS
4.     The occupation assigned to a recruit at a CFRC or a CFRC Det is based
on an assessment of aptitudes, level of ability, and preference.
Accordingly, the initially assigned occupation may be changed only where:

     a.   compulsory occupation reassignment is necessary in the interests
          of the Service;

     b.   a recruit has failed the occupation training course for the
          assigned occupation but is recommended by the training agency to
          be suitable for possible reassignment to another occupation;

     c.   a change in medical classification necessitates a change in the
          assigned occupation but does not require release action; or

     d.   a recruit, having sufficient knowledge of the occupation training
          to date and, for substantial reason, requests occupation
          reassignment.

CFAO 49-13

OCCUPATION REASSIGNMENT
5.     CFRETS HQ is the approving authority for the occupation reassignment of
trainees within the provisions of  CFAO 11-15, Home Port Division and will issue
direction concerning occupation reassignments. Normally, reassignments only may
be made to those occupations where a production requirement exists. Reassignments
are promulgated by format message as outlined in A-PM-245-001/FP-001, Military
Personnel Information System, Chapter 7.


Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: recruit788 on December 18, 2008, 11:13:50
I am currently going through basic training but am having doubt's about my chosen trade,  I was just wandering if anyone knows if it's possible to change trades this early on.  Thanks for any feedback.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: PMedMoe on December 18, 2008, 11:30:03
Wow, look at this (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,82143.0.html).

Not to mention, this question is in the wrong forum.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 18, 2008, 11:32:25
You can request it, sure.  CFAO 11-12 (http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/011-12_e.asp) is what you are looking for, specifically Para 6.  This is for Reg Force.  If you are PRes then you are looking for CFA0 49-11 (http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/049-11_e.asp).

Now...if you are only in basic how the fark could you possibly know if you like a trade you've never been exposed to??  

And..NLFD Grinch is correct.  Search!!  
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Yrys on December 18, 2008, 11:33:17
Not to mention, this question is in the wrong forum.

Ha, thanks  :D !

I was asking myself what that thread was doing in that forum ...
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: ammocat on December 19, 2008, 20:57:35
BMQ

Just curious, where are you doing your BMQ and what trade do you actually want now?
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Sigswife on May 03, 2010, 20:00:09
My husband has been away for BMQ for the last couple of months.  2 weeks ago he was taken off course and placed in AWT due to a knee injury.  Hopefully his knee will be healed over the next few weeks.  He has been talking about changing from Signals Operator to MP.  When he initially applied he didn't apply to be an MP because he was told he needed a 2 year college diploma.  However, apparently there are some people there who are going in as MP at the rank of Private and a 2 year college diploma was not necessary.

So, my concern is that if they let him change his trade, he will have to spend a long time in PAT after BMQ before the transfer can go through.  He is under this impression that it shouldn't be a problem because he hasn't finished BMQ yet.  Can anyone offer me any insight on this?  Basically, my questions is that if they let him change to MP, will he have to spend a lot of time waiting around before the transfer, or could is it an easy transfer whilst he completes BMQ?  Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Petamocto on May 03, 2010, 20:38:48
The best advice I can give you is to have him ask his chain of command, because they know a lot more about his case file than we do.

Every situation is different with different factors at different times with different people in charge at different places with different rules, so only those in charge of him right now are going to be able to provide the best answer.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Sigswife on May 03, 2010, 21:46:06
Ok, that makes sense.  I guess it's not one of those things with a quick easy answer..wishful thinking on my part! :)   Thanks Petamocto.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Nuggs on May 03, 2010, 21:48:46
I'm not sure if they've changed it or not. However there were approx 15 MPs between us and our sister platoon (1 year ago).

All of them had previously completed a police foundations course. They were Privates until they completed BMQ at which point they were promoted to Corporal / Leading Seaman.

The minimum requirement listed on the external web is still:

Quote
The minimum academic requirement is a
community college diploma in Law and Security
Administration, Police Foundations, or a similar
program from a recognised Community College
or CEGEP. Related employment experience will
also be considered in determining education
equivalency.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: George Wallace on May 03, 2010, 21:56:57
I'm not sure if they've changed it or not. However there were approx 15 MPs between us and our sister platoon (1 year ago).

All of them had previously completed a police foundations course. They were Privates until they completed BMQ at which point they were promoted to Corporal / Leading Seaman.

The minimum requirement listed on the external web is still:

And how do we respect a Cpl who has less time in than the Coffee at Tim Hortons?
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Petamocto on May 03, 2010, 22:03:45
And how do we respect a Cpl who has less time in than the Coffee at Tim Hortons?

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs207.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb241%2Flaprincesse83301%2Foh_snap.jpg&hash=2d57e753a05364acfe33b87947096873)
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Nuggs on May 03, 2010, 22:07:15
And how do we respect a Cpl who has less time in than the Coffee at Tim Hortons?

 ;D
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Im Carl G, carry me on May 03, 2010, 23:57:24
I'm in a similar though not identical situation to your husband, and have been forced to learn a fair amount about this, so I may be of some help here.

First, until your husband is trade qualified, the process is called a Voluntary Occupational Reassignment. An Occupational Transfer only applies once you actually have an occupation, and the difference is anything but semantic :(

I myself am changing from Infantry to Comms Research...I tried kicking off the process during BMQ. My chain of command told me at the time that they would not under any circumstances action my memorandum until I reached my next unit - In my case wainwright PAT. I sent it up anyway and it was indeed fired back, I cannot however confirm that this was due to some regulation or whether my CoC just didn't want to deal with it. Don't take my experience as the only way it can go. However, it is quite possible your husband will have to finish BMQ before he can kick this off.

That said, once I got to PAT in Wainwright, I was able to submit a VOR. How it works is you put in a memo requesting a meeting with your Base Personnel Selection Officer, which can take 2 days or a month to get, depending on any number of factors. S/he will interview your husband - when I had mine, she asked me what trades I wanted (they'll ask you for 3 choices), told me the status of the trade (whether there are spots available or not), told me my CFAT scores were good enough, etc...in my case I went in fairly well informed, so it was a fairly short interview.

Next step is submitting a VOR memo, which is quite straight forward. It has to be approved by his chain of command, which in the case of Wainwright PAT started with the PAT 2 i/c (a Warrant Officer), then to the platoon commander (2LT), coy 2 i/c (capt), coy OC (Maj) and then the WATC CO (Lt Col)...in my case, they lost the damn thing before it got to the CO. I've been lead to believe that they sometimes go missing if you've pissed someone off, but in my case I suspect no foul play - they deal with a lot of the damn things. They also didn't have me fill out the forms that go with the memo, or in fact tell me such things existed - I didn't find out about them until I got tasked to CFB Edmonton and I asked my supervisor to help me find out the status of my VOR. Make sure your husband asks about them, lest they be forgotten and the process be delayed as it was for me.

In theory, once the memo reaches the CO level, there is a second BPSO interview, and then the paperwork is sent to NDHQ. I can't speak to how that works or how long it takes, only that it will probably be awhile. I put mine in three months ago and I haven't even been moved to PARR yet.

Don't let my experience discourage you or your husband, but be advised that it could take awhile.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on May 04, 2010, 00:24:21
Your husband should get his hands on something called:

CFAO 11-12

It deals with occupation changes for Non-commissioned members, Regular Force.  He should be able to get that thru his bosses, or on the DIN himself. Its not available on the Internet at this time.

As he is not QL3 qualified yet, he is looking for something called a MOC Reassignment.  I am not at work and can't PM you the details of the CFAO/MOC Reassignments but I can assure you this is the governing document on occupational transfers for Regular Force NCMs and he should read/understand it as he applies for his MOC Reassignment.

If he can't get his hands on a copy, PM me and I'll get something to you.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Sigswife on May 04, 2010, 21:03:43
Thanks so much for the information.  I'll let my husband know and hopefully this will make sense to him!   :)
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: aesop081 on May 04, 2010, 21:11:20
Thanks so much for the information.  I'll let my husband know and hopefully this will make sense to him!   :)

All information he would have received from his superiors if had asked them for it.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Sigswife on May 04, 2010, 21:42:06
All information he would have received from his superiors if had asked them for it.

And I'm sure he's going to.  I was just trying to see what information I could find out for him.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: medicineman on May 04, 2010, 23:11:19
And how do we respect a Cpl who has less time in than the Coffee at Tim Hortons?
I'll have to borrow that sometime.

MM
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: George Wallace on May 04, 2010, 23:33:51
........  I was just trying to see what information I could find out for him.

Not really your job.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: DavieRocket77 on May 05, 2010, 23:27:40
Not really your job.
lol
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Lex Parsimoniae on May 05, 2010, 23:42:21
I was just trying to see what information I could find out for him.
Sounds like a good team!
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Alea on May 06, 2010, 18:17:24
lol

DavieRocket77,

A few days ago, a very wise man (Kratz, a mentor on this forum) wrote this to me:
A "ha ha ha" on course when a teammate gets in trouble will land you more trouble."

He was so right.

Just after reading his answer to my "ha ha ha" post I felt very ashamed and gave it some deep thoughts as:
1) As humans, we should not laugh at those who come for advice, help or make mistakes
2) As "Wannabes" the first value we should learn and respect is: the team effort and be team oriented

When reading your "LOL" answer today, I recalled that you're the one who came crying for help and advices 2 days ago on this very forum. A few of us answered you to the best of our knowledge. The day after that (that would be yesterday) you got an official starting date for your MBQ. The same day, you laugh onto someone else's thread who's just trying to get some advice for her husband (TEAM WORK).
So what is it? The overflowing joy of having an MBQ date that allows you to laugh at someone else? Or is it just that the word TEAM hasn't sunk into you yet?

And yes TEAM WORK is extremely important... keep this in mind as you'll need it more than you ever did in your entire life during MBQ as for the rest of your career in the CF.

If I could give you -100 on this one, I would.

Alea
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: DavieRocket77 on May 06, 2010, 20:14:19
DavieRocket77,

A few days ago, a very wise man (Kratz, a mentor on this forum) wrote this to me:
A "ha ha ha" on course when a teammate gets in trouble will land you more trouble."

He was so right.

Just after reading his answer to my "ha ha ha" post I felt very ashamed and gave it some deep thoughts as:
1) As humans, we should not laugh at those who come for advice, help or make mistakes
2) As "Wannabes" the first value we should learn and respect is: the team effort and be team oriented

When reading your "LOL" answer today, I recalled that you're the one who came crying for help and advices 2 days ago on this very forum. A few of us answered you to the best of our knowledge. The day after that (that would be yesterday) you got an official starting date for your MBQ. The same day, you laugh onto someone else's thread who's just trying to get some advice for her husband (TEAM WORK).
So what is it? The overflowing joy of having an MBQ date that allows you to laugh at someone else? Or is it just that the word TEAM hasn't sunk into you yet?

And yes TEAM WORK is extremely important... keep this in mind as you'll need it more than you ever did in your entire life during MBQ as for the rest of your career in the CF.

If I could give you -100 on this one, I would.

Alea
Dear Alea, I think you misunderstood my "lol"....I wasn't laughing at "Sigswife" for asking a question. I was laughing at Wallaces comment which I didn't think was very helpful at all, that's why I posted a "lol"- it was a sarcastic, I didn't realize I needed your permission to make a post. Now please tell me Alea how  the heck does my "BMQ" date have any rellevance with my post? It seems quite obvious that all you want to do is critisize and bash people first chance you get, that or you simply have it out for me......either way congratulations. Just for your information, I have lived my life as a "team player" and I wouldn't have it any other way, so this won't be a problem for me. Just one piece of advice , I think you should have a good look in the mirror before you jump to conclusions and judge someone else.......... take care      p.s. I don't think I need to tell you what you can do with your "100"
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Alea on May 06, 2010, 23:11:05
Dear Alea, I think you misunderstood my "lol"....I wasn't laughing at "Sigswife" for asking a question. I was laughing at Wallaces comment which I didn't think was very helpful at all, that's why I posted a "lol"- it was a sarcastic, I didn't realize I needed your permission to make a post. Now please tell me Alea how  the heck does my "BMQ" date have any rellevance with my post? It seems quite obvious that all you want to do is critisize and bash people first chance you get, that or you simply have it out for me......either way congratulations. Just for your information, I have lived my life as a "team player" and I wouldn't have it any other way, so this won't be a problem for me. Just one piece of advice , I think you should have a good look in the mirror before you jump to conclusions and judge someone else.......... take care      p.s. I don't think I need to tell you what you can do with your "100"

DavieRocket77,

My apologies.
You are right, I did not realize that your answer was not towards Sigswife. I originally thought of it to be sarcastic against someone asking for help.
I don't know you what so ever, therefore, I don't "have it out for you" at all, nor do I "want to criticize and bash people first chance I get". No worries about this.

And you're right in your P.S. also. You don't need to tell me what I can do with the 100 as I've decided to give you a +100... my way of saying that: I made a mistake towards you.

Alea

Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Petamocto on May 14, 2010, 20:20:11
One of our Australian exchange officers and I had a talk about this the other day, and he brought up a good point.

Why in the heck do we make people choose what trade they want to be before they've ever been exposed to any of it?  They haven't seen a single day of life in the Army, Navy, or Air Force, yet we make them pick at the recruiting centre.

Why don't they all go to basic as a purple uni-trade blob and then get some sort of presentation at the end and then branch their three ways?

Then, say you decide you want to go Army (why wouldn't you?), you go onto your next phase and then do that course as a green blob, and at the end you get to see a more specific round of trade-specific presentations.

No, everyone wouldn't get exactly what they want based on numbers, but they don't now either.  At least they'd get some exposure to their desired job before they picked it which is a heck of a lot more than watching a 2-minute clip online.

It would also cut down on all the BS "OT" wastage before being trade qualified.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Nuggs on May 14, 2010, 21:38:25
One of our Australian exchange officers and I had a talk about this the other day, and he brought up a good point.

Why in the heck do we make people choose what trade they want to be before they've ever been exposed to any of it?  They haven't seen a single day of life in the Army, Navy, or Air Force, yet we make them pick at the recruiting centre.

Why don't they all go to basic as a purple uni-trade blob and then get some sort of presentation at the end and then branch their three ways?

Then, say you decide you want to go Army (why wouldn't you?), you go onto your next phase and then do that course as a green blob, and at the end you get to see a more specific round of trade-specific presentations.

No, everyone wouldn't get exactly what they want based on numbers, but they don't now either.  At least they'd get some exposure to their desired job before they picked it which is a heck of a lot more than watching a 2-minute clip online.

It would also cut down on all the BS "OT" wastage before being trade qualified.

I'd hate to say it, but I agree with Petamocto  ;D

As someone currently in the training system (the last 15 months), I would have vastly preferred actually being given a chance to experience some of my Element (Navy) before picking a trade. I see all two often, QL3 students of all trades that are very disappointed in their choices. I too even share some reservations about mine.

I personally felt that some of the best training I ever received, were hands on taskings during my PAT stints over the last year and a half. I know most of my fellow students feel the same. IMHO this is especially true of us that have long courses and usually even longer stints awaiting security clearances.

The one place Petamocto and myself differ is on "purple uni-trade blob". I would hazard a guess most folks have their mind made up on element before joining.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Petamocto on May 14, 2010, 21:45:39
I'd hate to say it, but I agree with Petamocto...

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi174.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw87%2Falohahedone%2Fjoin_the_dark_side__DarthCookie.jpg&hash=8f20ee4f0486c8566bfcccff820ef3ca)

Sorry, when I wrote "purple" it was in a non-affiliation context, not a logistics context if that's what you think I meant.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Nuggs on May 14, 2010, 21:52:37

Sorry, when I wrote "purple" it was in a non-affiliation context, not a logistics context if that's what you think I meant.

No, I was thinking more along the line of separate "basic training" per element or role.

But that's a whole different kettle of fish, a different thread, and well beyond my pay grade. But then again, the way I understand it, basic thought processes beyond breathing are still above my pay grade :P
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: aesop081 on May 14, 2010, 22:01:47
I see all two often, QL3 students of all trades that are very disappointed in their choices.

Judging by what i see on this site, i would venture that a fair number of those were part of the "i want whatever trade will get me in the quickest" applicant crowd rather than the "i didnt understand what i signed up for " crowd.

Its a trend almost anyone can see here on army.ca, in my opinion at least. If people spent more time asking the CFRC questions and using online resources to make an informed decision as oposed to worring about how fast they can get to BMQ...........
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Nuggs on May 14, 2010, 22:20:17
Judging by what i see on this site, i would venture that a fair number of those were part of the "i want whatever trade will get me in the quickest" applicant crowd rather than the "i didnt understand what i signed up for " crowd.

Its a trend almost anyone can see here on army.ca, in my opinion at least. If people spent more time asking the CFRC questions and using online resources to make an informed decision as oposed to worring about how fast they can get to BMQ...........

I can't speak for everyone obviously, but the majority of what I have seen here in Esquimalt (Navy realm only) is a combination a unfulfilled expectations, and disgruntled trainees stuck in the system awaiting course dates and security clearances.

As far as the unfulfilled expectations goes, yes much of that is due to recruits not researching / questioning properly throughout the process. Asking the CFRC questions isn't always realistic though. I know when I recruited in Halifax, it was with an all army staff who freely admitted that they knew next to nothing about the Navy let alone the Nav Comm trade.

The biggest problem I find here is that students wait far too long for coursing and clearances. Allthough these are obviously areas where there will be some "marking time" most of the bodies aren't truly gainfully employed. Typically the longer those bodies wait the more they start considering OTs to elements / trades where they can get their career back on track. I know the thought did more than just cross my mind in the past.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Petamocto on May 14, 2010, 22:44:30
No, I was thinking more along the line of separate "basic training" per element or role.

Sorry I'm still not sure about what you're saying in terms of what I wrote.

To clarify, the hypothetical situation above includes every single person who joins the CF going to one place for basic training.  All they would do at the recruiting centre is get through the door and pass the entrance tests.  They could still be told that they're only going to be allowed a limited range of choices if they didn't score well, but everyone does the same thing (short of the rarities like dentists, lawyers, etc).

For the big chunk of the bell curve though, I don't think anyone is entitled before finishing basic that they belong to anything other than the CF, and after passing basic they're still not qualified to say they're infantry, armour, etc.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Nuggs on May 14, 2010, 22:49:40
Sorry I'm still not sure about what you're saying in terms of what I wrote.

To clarify, the hypothetical situation above includes every single person who joins the CF going to one place for basic training.  All they would do at the recruiting centre is get through the door and pass the entrance tests.  They could still be told that they're only going to be allowed a limited range of choices if they didn't score well, but everyone does the same thing (short of the rarities like dentists, lawyers, etc).

For the big chunk of the bell curve though, I don't think anyone is entitled before finishing basic that they belong to anything other than the CF, and after passing basic they're still not qualified to say they're infantry, armour, etc.

I understand what your saying. I was simply saying that I'm more of a believer in a Army Basic, a Navy Basic, and whatever it is the Airforce does  ;D


But again that's a whole other thread / discussion / argument / thing to get my bag hammered on  ;D
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Petamocto on May 14, 2010, 23:16:35
Ahhh, gotcha.  But that's really what happens on the second phase of training.

There are pros and cons to both, really.  The big picture purpose of basic is not to create super soldiers, but to introduce people to life in the CF.  At the end of the day, if someone has not demonstrated themselves to be completely retarded, and they have a grasp of the rank structure, drill, etc they pass basic.

It would almost have to be a cultural shift because to make basic trade-less it could almost be civilianized with contractors.  Before the old timers speak up against that, be aware that St Jean is already not what basic was when you joined because there are not enough Infantry-types to go around.  The ground truth is that we're extremely thin and it's already not anything resembling a battle school.  Every instructor in St Jean is one less at the battleschools.  I haven't been the Course O on a QL3 since 04, but I assure you by that course they are fully immersed in Confirmation Of Combat Knowledge.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: BK-Ryan on June 11, 2010, 17:45:32
Hey guys, I'm fairly new to this site. I recently got a job offer for Vehicle tech. I'm leaving Novemeber 1st for St. Jean and I have had a little change of heart as in what I want to do. So I was wondering if this transfer would be easier in BMQ
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 11, 2010, 19:50:26
I think you should ask this question to your recruiter.

There is NO guaruntee that you will get an MOC reassignment at CFLRS (or at all) and they won't even want to deal it it there IMO.  There is no guaruntee you will get a MOC reassignment (done before you are QL3 qualified) or a Occupation Transfer (after 48 months service and meeting other criteria required).

Call your MCC or File Manager and discuss it with them.  I don't recommend taking a trade to "just get your foot in the door" either.  (For a variety of reasons I won't bore everyone else with).

If you want more info, search for MOC reassignment, Occupation Transfer, CFA0 11-12 and VOT on the forum.

Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Chunks on June 15, 2010, 23:41:16
During my BOTC, I asked to change from Combat Eng to Naval Combat Eng but they would not do it there. I had to wait after and submit a VOT request. That was 8 years ago, it's probably different now...

And really, you don't want to get your kit, label it, iron it, put it all nicely to standard in your room and if, by chance you have a quick answer, return it and start all over again.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: chadk on March 05, 2011, 08:39:28
I would like to steps one would take in asking to remuster.  If someone could direct me to the proper ( if information already exists) spot on the forum it would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: PMedMoe on March 05, 2011, 09:28:38
I would like to steps one would take in asking to remuster.  If someone could direct me to the proper ( if information already exists) spot on the forum it would be greatly appreciated.

Go look at the other location (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,99723.msg1023484.html#msg1023484) you posted the same question.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Nic22Bast on January 24, 2013, 23:26:15
I accpet an offer for artillery. I start my BMQ frebruary 9th! But my first choice was infantry... the trade was close! I want to know if its possible after my BMQ to change my trade for infantry? I know if arty really need people that would be difficult to change... and if infantry is full (r22r) they will not pick me.
But my question still... it is possible to change between my BMQ and my trade instruction??

Thanks.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: PMedMoe on January 25, 2013, 08:17:20
I would say if you really wanted Infantry, you shouldn't have accepted the other offer. 

That being said, it is possible but it probably won't be easy or quick.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: GnyHwy on January 25, 2013, 09:17:00
Changing after BMQ doesn't make sense.  Think about this way. 

If they are not accepting infantry candidates for BMQ, what would make you think that they have trade training available for you? 

Do yo think that they will let you sit around in a holding platoon and wait for the next infantry course that may or may not happen?

If you really wanted infantry you should have waited.  It's not all doom and gloom though.  There have been many people who have OT'd to infantry from the artillery, and if you apply for OT when it's open again, you could get it.

Being artillery myself, I say give the arty a fair shake, you might even like it.  You can still specialize and perform infantry type skills while being in the arty.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Nic22Bast on January 25, 2013, 10:00:58
Maybe because after the BMQ infantry trade will be open?
I'm just asking... i'm really proud and happy to be with arty. But i want to try infantry eventually in my career. I say that now... but maybe i will really like arty and stay there for my all career. Or maybe i will try infantry and will dont like this....
But i need to try if i want to know!

We will see...

Thanks.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: eurowing on January 25, 2013, 14:21:08
You can carry your kit....  or your kit can carry you.   Ubique
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Nic22Bast on January 25, 2013, 23:18:37
what you want to mean eurowing? I'm a frenchy so.... i dont understand some english expression :P
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: FJAG on January 26, 2013, 01:46:21
what you want to mean eurowing? I'm a frenchy so.... i dont understand some english expression :P

He means that infantry generally walk into battle carrying their weapons and gear while tankers and artillery ride into battle on their tanks and gun tractors.

This used to be especially true during my youth when I opted to join the artillery.

Nowadays the infantry is much more mechanised but in Afghanistan they did an awful lot of walking carrying one hundred pounds of gear.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Nic22Bast on January 26, 2013, 01:59:44
Ok i get it! Yeah thats a big difference between arty and infantry....
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 26, 2013, 09:15:40
You can REQUEST a MOC Reassignment  from Arty to Inf, sure.  You may not GET it though.  So don't plan on it being a 'for sure'.  Keep in mind, there has to be spots open in the trade  you are trying to get reassigned to, you have to meet all the requirements, etc.

Current CF policy (from CFAO 11-12  and the Basic Training List Admin Guide aka BTAGs)

- If you aren't QL3 qualified yet and haven't started the course, you can request a MOC Reassignment (CFA0 11-12); the BTAGs call it a VOR (Voluntary Occupation Reassignment);

- If you are between 25% and 75% complete QL3, you can request a MOC Reassignment/VOR.

Some more stuff here (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,104504.msg1114650.html#msg1114650) and here (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,106804.msg1159535.html#msg1159535).
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Nic22Bast on January 26, 2013, 12:16:02
Thank you for the infos! But i'm only a recruit... Idk what a QL3 or CFAO 11-12 or BTAGS... When i need to ask for MOC reassignment? After my BMQ or before?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: krimynal on January 26, 2013, 12:50:12
all those classes are gonna happen after your BmQ , there basically Soldier Qualification courses , the BMQ is the military qualitication ... I don't think EVERYONE does QL3 , but everyone does BMQ
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 26, 2013, 12:56:27
I don't think EVERYONE does QL3 , but everyone does BMQ

Everyone does a QL3 course, unless you're an officer, that qualifies you to be in the trade you selected. Officer's have a different system, but they have their own version of a QL3. You're useless in your trade unless you're QL3 qualified as a NCM.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: MikeL on January 26, 2013, 12:57:09
all those classes are gonna happen after your BmQ , there basically Soldier Qualification courses , the BMQ is the military qualitication ... I don't think EVERYONE does QL3 , but everyone does BMQ

Every NCM(Army, RCAF, RCN) does BMQ
All Army and some purple trades do BMQ-Land 
Every NCM(Army, RCAF, RCN) does a QL3/DP1 course


The Soldier Qualification went through some changes and was renamed to BMQ-Land a few years ago.

Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: krimynal on January 26, 2013, 12:58:03
my bad ! point beeing QL3 is AFTER your BMQ
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Nic22Bast on January 26, 2013, 13:48:09
Me its for NCM! So... After my bmq and SQ i can do my demand for infantry?
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Michael O'Leary on January 26, 2013, 13:59:23
Me its for NCM! So... After my bmq and SQ i can do my demand request for infantry?

I fixed that for you. And just in case, be prepared to be happy in the Artillery, no-one likes serving with a soldier who can't shut up about how he wishes he was in another trade.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: MikeL on January 26, 2013, 14:30:46
If you are that against joining the Artillery why did you accept an Artillery contract?  Anyways,  have you contacted the CFRC and asked if you can back out of it and wait for a Infantry position to open up?


You said earlier you are happy to be have a position within the Artillery,  but you aren't even in it yet and it seems like you want out ASAP.


Should really think about this.  Are you going to be wishing you were Infantry all the time and be some what negative towards Artillery?  Are you willing to give Artillery a chance?  If you do go ahead and do your BMQ, etc and find out your request to OT into Infantry is denied,  you have too be willing to be a Gunner for a few years.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Not_So_Arty_Newbie on January 26, 2013, 14:39:11
Well, you're in now and frankly an OT to infantry won't happen quickly (seeing as they are way overborne) sooooo. 2 Options really. quit now, or embrace your choice, keep your nose clean, excel in everything you do and ask for the OP stream as soon and as often as you can.  Being in a dismounted FOO party is kind of like being in the infantry with PMS. You carry lots, over long distances and really perform as infantry with some really cool tools.

Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Nic22Bast on January 26, 2013, 15:56:56
I repeat.. I'm really proud and happy with Arty. Its a prestigious trade.... Who really interest me! It is bad to took is second choice or what? I have no expectation to get a place in infantry after my BMQ... I'm just asking if its possible! I have many friend with the vandoos so... They want me to join the vandoos too. If its possible i will think to that seriously... If its not i will be very happy and proud with arty! Be sure :P
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: slayer14 on January 26, 2013, 17:16:24
If you can't get into the infantry, try to go into the OP stream within your Arty regt.  You'll eat, sleep and fight with the infantry, you'll basically be an infanteer on steroids.  The arty FOO/FAC teams can bring the most destruction on the battlefield.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Nic22Bast on January 26, 2013, 17:29:19
Thats really interesting!! Can you tell me more about OP stream?

thank you!
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: MikeL on January 26, 2013, 17:39:45
Simply put;  as a FOO Tech or Fire Effects Tech(not sure what the current name is) you are part of a team that is attached to a Infantry sub unit(you will still belong to RCHA).  They plan fire missions and associated coordination required, etc. They can call in artillery fire on targets,  if there is a FAC/JTAC on the team they can also tell aircraft where to drop bombs.  That is a pretty simplified answer,  there are other tasks/duties they can perform as well.  *Info is just what I have seen and heard from Gunners,  plus what I have read on the forum*

These threads will probably be of interest to you.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=22853.0
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=87317.0
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,103773.0.html


Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: GnyHwy on January 26, 2013, 17:55:53
A couple more.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,96844.0.html (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,96844.0.html)
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,104289.0.html (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,104289.0.html)
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Nic22Bast on January 26, 2013, 17:58:02
Awesome! Thank you guys! Thats help me!
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 26, 2013, 18:39:05
Well, you're in now and frankly an OT to infantry won't happen quickly (seeing as they are way overborne) sooooo. 2 Options really. quit now, or embrace your choice

I guess you're not quite familiar with the MOC Reassignment stuff.  Requesting one is also an "option".  It does happen...
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 26, 2013, 19:13:33
Me its for NCM! So... After my bmq and SQ i can do my demand request for reassignment  for infantry?

In accordance with current CF policy/rules/regulations, you can put your request in during your BMQ.  Remember it is a request.

The reg's about this I posted above...QL3 is your trades training course.

Expect to be told during BMQ you aren't allowed to do this, blah blah blah.  That is why I am saying...this is CF policy that you can request it.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: adventure-guide on October 23, 2013, 17:29:29
I've been in the VOT-U (U: untrained) process for the better part of 1.5 years while on PAT Pl. I have all my paperwork done and is in Ottawa (Since June 2013) waiting on a review board, which I assume is happening In Feb. I assume because all the paperwork has to be in by 14 FEB 2014.
I am now just wondering if anyone would have an idea as to how long does it take to notify me if I was successful or not.
I've been told everything from "we lost your memo, start over" to "you will know by end of summer.....now end of Feb" Been through 2 PSOs and is all very confusing and lots of different info. Any suggestions or help would be great... otherwise I'll just be waiting with fingers crossed. Dont really wanna take one BPSOs advice and "just VR and reapply".

Thanks 
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: DAA on October 23, 2013, 18:16:08
Dont really wanna take one BPSOs advice and "just VR and reapply".

That is the absolutely theeeee WORSE advice for anyone who is serious about having a career with the CF!

You're not the only person who has been given this kind of advice and those that took it, are now paying the price.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: ARMY_101 on October 23, 2013, 18:35:24
That is the absolutely theeeee WORSE advice for anyone who is serious about having a career with the CF!

You're not the only person who has been given this kind of advice and those that took it, are now paying the price.

+1

Very common suggestion. And one that CMP needs to address.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 24, 2013, 00:32:04
Exactly where are you in trg....BMQ complete only?
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: adventure-guide on October 24, 2013, 12:17:06
Exactly where are you in trg....BMQ complete only?

I have BMQ only... and becuase I have been here so long I have my Driver Wheel 404 and working on ML and MSVS. I am currently infantry as of now but waiting for the switch
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: andrewkw08 on December 05, 2013, 05:17:34
Hello,

I am actually going through the same process. I've been in for 7 years and have seen the process and am now going though it myself.

Your memo is just a formality (It is not important) in the process of an AVOTP. What is important is your AVOTP package and where it is. You can request information on it's location. Since it is Protected B (med doc's) it's imperative you know its location.

As long as everything was filled out properly and the doc's are in Ottawa waiting review you have no issues. The board will meet early 2014 and you will hear back around April-May at the latest. If for whatever reason you are denied from the board you will hear late May.

It is a lengthy process as it is an "annual only" process. So keep in mind your CoC really has nothing to do with this once the paperwork has left your unit. It will only be there duty to inform you of the boards decision.

So in a nutshell, you can ask your clerks or BPSO assistance where your doc's are, and ask your CoC closer to when the board meets to see if a decision was made.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 05, 2013, 17:52:56
Are you 100% sure this is fact for a MOC Reassignment?  AVOTP and Reassignments aren't the same.

For some reason, folks are using terms like VOT-U (which are part of the as of yet not published DAOD) vice MOC Reassignment.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: 423tk on December 28, 2013, 20:37:12
hello quick question I didnt score high enough for armour on the apptitude test but i was offerd a job a cook. Could i inlist as that then remuster on bmq to armour??, or will my original test results not allow this?.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: MikeL on December 28, 2013, 20:58:31
If you didn't score high enough for Armour on the CFAT, that doesn't change during BMQ.  In order to join as a Armoured Soldier, or OT into that trade you must meet the trade requirements. Talk to the CFRC about rewriting your CFAT. FYI there is a waiting period before you can rewrite.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 30, 2013, 08:53:14
Also, note that if you do rewrite the CFAT and score high enough for Armour Soldier, that doesn't mean you will automatically be able to change from cook to crewman;  it is an application not a guarantee.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Paladium on January 09, 2014, 00:28:48
If you really want to try for  armour don't accept the offer for cook.  Do study before retaking the CFAT.

Do not try for reassignment at St. Jean - as it is a bit dishonest to accept something while your real intent is to try to switch - bascally you will be expected to meet your committment unless something unexpected comes up.

They will always be looking for crwmn but you just might have to wait a bit.

The one downside of waiting to redo the CFAT is that if you do worse the most current CFAT score stands so you might make yourself ineligible for cook.  That's the risk you take.  Some people do better some do worse on the retest so you  never know.  But maybe that day you had bad nerves, didn't know what to expect (but you know now so that should help)

I would always wait for what I really wanted but if not too confident in your math then joiing as a cook waiting the four years to Occupationally transfer - all the while earning a salary and probably a promotion and then trying to occupationally transfer is also an option because if you do worse you still are a cooking earning a good salary by then.

Good Luck
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: 423tk on January 24, 2014, 14:04:03
so its a possibility you can remuster to a trade i didn't score high enough for. or is it a just prove your self that you are really good for infantry, ive been a cadet for 5 years I did b para went through rigorous selection then 2 weeks of more torture before b para even, then did two weeks of b para failed my landings po check so they rtu'd me on my birthday. if I showed the course officer on bmq that I would be excellent for infantry would they consider remustering me ?
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: George Wallace on January 24, 2014, 14:16:06
so its a possibility you can remuster to a trade i didn't score high enough for.

No.

or is it a just prove your self that you are really good for infantry, ive been a cadet for 5 years I did b para went through rigorous selection then 2 weeks of more torture before b para even, then did two weeks of b para failed my landings po check so they rtu'd me on my birthday. if I showed the course officer on bmq that I would be excellent for infantry would they consider remustering me ?

No.

Next:  Learn what the SHIFT Key is used for and use it.  Your grammar and sentence structure really suck.  It is hard to understand you if you can not clearly communicate.  You may want to start now learning how to properly use English in the written form.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 24, 2014, 15:01:14
ive been a cadet for 5 years I did b para went through rigorous selection then 2 weeks of more torture before b para even, then did two weeks of b para failed my landings po check so they rtu'd me

All that sentence shows is you were a Cadet for 5 years who couldn't pass Basic Para and that you need work on written communications.  Showing how you failed a qualification course and were RTU'd doesn't exactly "beef up" your application for remuster.   :2c:

Quote
if I showed the course officer on bmq that I would be excellent for infantry would they consider remustering me ?

You can show the Crse Officer on BMQ ~The Caramilk Secret~ and it won't matter;  if you can't score high enough on the CFAT for Trade X's cut-off, you can never get into Trade X. 

Yes, it is that simple.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: 423tk on January 24, 2014, 15:28:49
ok thanks a lot for the input better start studying, by the way I could not jab properly because of stress fractures in my shins.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 24, 2014, 15:36:15
Landing PO check's must have changed a lot;  I did BP and the Landing PCs were done from the swing rack.  No jabs from there, 2 coursemates threw you out high and hard and the PI decided when to let go of the rope.  You do proper PLF, 5 POC etc. 

Anyways...yes study and all that.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: 423tk on January 24, 2014, 17:24:20
I almost failed the first po because of my shins. Turns out I was running wrong all my life, its fixed now though. And yeah they still use the swing wracks, when I got rtu'd they made up some bull excuse that they couldn't give a retest because they didn't have the time when the platoon was at the mock tower doing mass exit with full kit they could have just sent me there and I would have nailed that po check.

Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: 423tk on January 24, 2014, 17:26:51
But when my bros told me after no one even jabbed or landed properly anyways which I found a waste of training when troops don't use proper form anyways.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 24, 2014, 20:19:42
Don't sweat it;  I thundered into Buxton in '92 during BP on my 3rd jump and went home with no wings, a back that would never be the same and my 'dream career' (SAR Tech) gone at Mach 1 down the shitter.  I know the feeling of coming home 'still a leg'.

Worse, I lost my Crse WO's (he was a Pathfinder and a real nice guy  :blotto:) gloves he lent me (they cut my jacket off me at Lancaster Park) and I honestly thought he was going to bury me in a shallow grave.  Thankfully, at the smoker I think he forgot about them after beverages were served.

I didn't mention that on my interview when I remustered.    ;)
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: ajp on January 31, 2014, 23:03:40
Eits....I love learning more about you very post.  You rock.   Just sayin
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Sn0Gid on February 01, 2014, 01:05:04
I am currently doing my bmoq as a log officer and I was wondering if it was possible to apply for a trade transfer as a pilot. I thought since i haven't started specific training for logistic maybe its not too late to switch.
Can it be done?

Thanks a lot!
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Goose15 on February 01, 2014, 01:47:24
Removed.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: D3 on February 01, 2014, 01:52:42
Not during BMOQ.  CFLRS is not likely to expend its staff horsepower to staff a VOT for someone on BMOQ. Voluntary occupational transfers, most of the time, are done through a merit based process where merit listing happens once a year.  Voluntary occupational transfers while still in the training systems are possible, however they are uncommon.

Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 01, 2014, 08:49:32
 :blotto:
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 01, 2014, 10:08:36
I'll add some policy for certainty for those doubting;  Basic Training List Admin Guide (BTAGs), Section 2, Occupation Reassignment, Para 216.

216. Eligibility – Voluntary Reassignment

Personnel on the BTL/SUTL may request voluntary reassignment as indicated below:

a. BTL NCMs – after BMQ. May apply at any time after completion of BMQ and before completion of occupation training. May only request
from voluntary list and may be limited out of under-strength occupations;

b. BTL Officers – after BMOQ. May apply at any time after completion of BMOQ and prior to completion of occupation training. May only request from the monthly reassignment list and may be limited out of understrength occupations;

c. SUTL Officers – AY 2 to AY 4. May apply for the annual program in the fall IAW the message released by SO SEM. Opportunities may be limited out of under-strength occupations. Students must have completed BMOQ to be eligible for reassignment;

d. SUTL Officers – On Graduation. After graduation, SUTL officers are transferred to the BTL and are eligible as noted above; and

e. The trainee shall submit a written request through his chain of command clearly indicating the new MOSID(s) to which he/she is requesting VORor, if the trainee has no new MOSID in mind and wishes to investigatewhat other MOSIDs for which he/she may be qualified. In the written request the trainee will clearly indicate what his/her career intentions (release or remain in current MOSID) should the trainee be deemed not suitable for VOR or the trainees decide that the MOSIDs offered are not personally acceptable.

----------------------------



Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: DAA on February 01, 2014, 11:15:37
I am currently doing my bmoq as a log officer and I was wondering if it was possible to apply for a trade transfer as a pilot. I thought since i haven't started specific training for logistic maybe its not too late to switch.
Can it be done?
Thanks a lot!

Good info posted above.  And here's some more advice.  If after completion of your BMOQ, you do decide to request a VOR over to Pilot and after a "really really" long time, it eventually get's approved, and you fail any portion of your Pilot training, you may as well say "Good bye".
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Onegin on February 02, 2014, 20:59:19
Good info posted above.  And here's some more advice.  If after completion of your BMOQ, you do decide to request a VOR over to Pilot and after a "really really" long time, it eventually get's approved, and you fail any portion of your Pilot training, you may as well say "Good bye".

Are you sure about this? I had a fellow NCM put in a CT for MARS officer and got accepted. Months later he failed his first trades course but he was not kicked out. Instead he was given the choice of other ''less demanding'' trades. I believe he has since resigned his commission and is in the reg force as a NCM again.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: PilotBob on February 03, 2014, 19:19:53
I found this on DWAN. Once you have access and read it over. Lots of useful information for anyone wanting to transfer. Annex A is specifically regarding transfer to the pilot MOC.

http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/010-01_e.asp

Here is a piece of it:

ELIGIBILITY
3.     To be eligible for transfer to the Pilot MOC, an applicant must:

     a.   not have previously failed any phase of pilot training;

     b.   be a Canadian citizen;

     c.   have a security clearance of Secret;

     d.   have completed two years commissioned service after completion of
          MOC qualification by 31 December of the year in which the
          transfer is applied for;

     e.   be below the rank of major;

     f.   have a minimum medical category of 122225, awarded within 12
          months of the date of application;

     g.   be prepared to accept,

          (1)  an intermediate engagement, or

          (2)  be serving on an indefinite period of service under former
               single-Service or unified terms of service; and

     h.   meet such other conditions as the CDS may prescribe.

Note - Officers who previously attended the Canadian Forces Aircrew
Selection Centre (CFASC) and did not attain a minimum pilot aptitude index
(STANINE) of six (6) are not eligible for transfer to the Pilot MOC

I hope this helps.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 03, 2014, 19:29:11
Are you sure about this? I had a fellow NCM put in a CT for MARS officer and got accepted. Months later he failed his first trades course but he was not kicked out. Instead he was given the choice of other ''less demanding'' trades. I believe he has since resigned his commission and is in the reg force as a NCM again.

I would say that it is dependent on a lot of factors;  recommendations of the PRB, assessment by the PSO, availability of  vacancies in different officer classifications, CFAT scores and education of the member, suitability of the mbr for aircrew/Plt training (AF1 from AUMB, ASC results, etc).

I doubt there is a single "cookie cutter outcome" for each mbr in a situation such as this.   :2c:
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: DAA on February 03, 2014, 20:06:33
Are you sure about this? I had a fellow NCM put in a CT for MARS officer and got accepted. Months later he failed his first trades course but he was not kicked out. Instead he was given the choice of other ''less demanding'' trades. I believe he has since resigned his commission and is in the reg force as a NCM again.

Your asking about a VOR from an officer occupation assigned at the time of enrolment/transfer to another officer occupation even before attempting training in the first occupation.  If a VOR were to be approved and you happen to be unsuccessful in the 2nd occupation, then your options maybe very limited, if there is an option offered.

Like Eye In The Sky says "there is no cookie cutter outcome", you're at the mercy of available vacancies and or available options.  Your fellow NCM that you quoted above is a classic example.  CT'd into the Reg F as MARS and failed.  But what he is probably NOT telling you or what you are not aware of, is that person was probably not offered VOR to another "officer" occupation and given two options, release or to remain in the Reg F, revert to NCM.  I have seen that "exact" scenario a number of times over the years.

Is it cast in "stone"?  No.  Is it a possible outcome?  From what I have seen, absolutely.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: new kid on the block on April 06, 2014, 16:31:08
I am currently in Basic Training at CFLRS in St Jean Richielieu QC. I am on week 11 with only 4 weeks left before I am off to my next training post. After Basic I am headed to Gagetown for my next training post since I had applied as a Combat Engineer. I am hoping that I can transfer to Aerospace Telecommunication and Information Systems Tech (ATIS) in the Air Force. Everyone I have talked to here at the school said CFLRS doesn't have the admin capacity to do a trade transfer they can only do purple trade element transfers. My question is basically how do I go about this occupational transfer without having to do unnecessary training in Gagetown?
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 06, 2014, 16:43:58
CFLRS is able to start the process.   :facepalm:  But if they aren't 'willing', well not much you can do to make them do their job admin-wise.

It is not an OT you are interesting in, it is a MOC Reassignment.  Might seem like nothing, but if you submit a memo requesting a VOT, I can see it being denied as "you aren't eligible IAW CFAO 11-12", which is correct.  MOC Reassignment is the correct avenue and terminology IAW current regulations.

Basically, submit a memo to your CofC requesting a MOC Reassignment to ATIS Tech.  Explain why you want the change.

If someone tries to tell you that you can't request this, send me a PM and I'll assist you.  Having said that, it is a request/application and not a given you will get it.  There are factors that come into play.  Example, did you score high enough on the CFAT for ATIS Tech, etc.  You might have to go to Gagetown and start trg while your application processes, which makes sense as you might not actually get it, right?  Right.

But yes, you can request a MOC Reassignment, IAW CFAO 11-12 and something called the Basic Training List Administrative Guide (BTAGs).

To start off with, one of the important things is to ensure you get your request in and dated before you start your QL3 course, or before you are complete the course. 

From the BTAGs:

216. Eligibility – Voluntary Reassignment

Personnel on the BTL/SUTL may request voluntary reassignment as indicated
below:

a. BTL NCMs – after BMQ. May apply at any time after completion of BMQ and before completion of occupation training. May only request from voluntary list and may be limited out of under-strength occupations;

Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Jarnhamar on November 06, 2014, 11:52:34
I'm trying to help a new member who I think is getting some bad information.

They've completed basic training in St Jean.  They were on a QL4 course and decided they want to OT to a new trade as they don't think the one they picked just isn't for them.  They are slatted to begin their DP1 course at the end of November and were told by their course staff that  they can't OT until after their DP1 trades course.

That seems wrong to me. It doesn't make sense to send someone on an extensive trades course only to have them OT when they're done; it's wasting a coveted spot on course.

They also asked to speak with a BPSO and were told by their course staff no, which again seems shady to me.

Any advice?
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: DAA on November 06, 2014, 12:50:48
I'm trying to help a new member who I think is getting some bad information.

They've completed basic training in St Jean.  They were on a QL4 course and decided they want to OT to a new trade as they don't think the one they picked just isn't for them.  They are slatted to begin their DP1 course at the end of November and were told by their course staff that  they can't OT until after their DP1 trades course.

That seems wrong to me. It doesn't make sense to send someone on an extensive trades course only to have them OT when they're done; it's wasting a coveted spot on course.

They also asked to speak with a BPSO and were told by their course staff no, which again seems shady to me.

Any advice?

Your info doesn't quite make sense to me.  How can you be on a QL4 Crse without having completed DP1?

Anyhow, if the member is NOT DP1/QL3 qualified, then it is referred to as a VOR or COR (Voluntary/Compulsory Occupational Reassignment).  These generally only occur as a result of a training failure during the initial occupation training.  They are rather "frowned" upon, as these are viewed as a means of bypassing "off the street" Recruiting requirements.  (ie; applicant wants to be Occupation A but seeing as A is not available, they take Occupation B, with the intention of trying to change back to Occupation A after completing BMQ)

Unless there are "exceptional" circumstances at play, I don't think these requests are normally entertained.  However, there were plans afoot to look at changing the VOR policy, where members would ONLY be able to request a VOR after completing 25% of their initial occupation training but not more than 75% of the training.  Whether these changes have taken place or not, I have no idea.  I don't think that consulting with the BPSO would produce much of a result and there probably wouldn't be much advice to be had.

Be warned though, in some cases, I have seen the member advised to just "release" and then "reapply" for the occupation they "really" want.  But this issue has also been addressed and members releasing prior to reaching OFP (ie; DP1/QL3) Status, are prohibited from reapplying for a minimum period of 12 months from their release date and then after the 12 months they will still need to obtain a "re-enrolment waiver" which will add more time onto the process.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Jarnhamar on November 06, 2014, 13:27:18
Your info doesn't quite make sense to me.  How can you be on a QL4 Crse without having completed DP1?
Driver wheeled.
Quote
Anyhow, if the member is NOT DP1/QL3 qualified, then it is referred to as a VOR or COR (Voluntary/Compulsory Occupational Reassignment).  These generally only occur as a result of a training failure during the initial occupation training.  They are rather "frowned" upon, as these are viewed as a means of bypassing "off the street" Recruiting requirements.  (ie; applicant wants to be Occupation A but seeing as A is not available, they take Occupation B, with the intention of trying to change back to Occupation A after completing BMQ)

Unless there are "exceptional" circumstances at play, I don't think these requests are normally entertained.  However, there were plans afoot to look at changing the VOR policy, where members would ONLY be able to request a VOR after completing 25% of their initial occupation training but not more than 75% of the training.  Whether these changes have taken place or not, I have no idea.  I don't think that consulting with the BPSO would produce much of a result and there probably wouldn't be much advice to be had.

Be warned though, in some cases, I have seen the member advised to just "release" and then "reapply" for the occupation they "really" want.  But this issue has also been addressed and members releasing prior to reaching OFP (ie; DP1/QL3) Status, are prohibited from reapplying for a minimum period of 12 months from their release date and then after the 12 months they will still need to obtain a "re-enrolment waiver" which will add more time onto the process.

Thanks for the feedback.  When the person picked their trade and told me what the recruiter told them about it I was pretty surprised, it sounded like they were fed a line.  The person isn't trying to back door their way into their 1st choice trade (still closed) they've just been doing more research and came to the conclusion it's not for them.  I'll pass this on though!
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 06, 2014, 16:32:15
There are 2 ref's that I know of for this;  CFAO 11-12 and the Basic Trg List Admin Guide (BTAGs).  Having said that, there was a draft 5002 series DAOD that was supposed to supersede the CFAO - to my knowledge it still has yet to be signed off, leaving the CFAO as the main ref.  It's not showing on the DAOD site at this time.  Having had some dealing with this kind of issue previously, I can sY I've seen the language/terminology from the draft DAOD used already (example OFP as a pivot point for OT eligibility) however, it is a DRAFT policy not yet signed off.  In the case I know of, this was challenged to the national authority who determined the CFAO remains the proper CAF/National reference. 

- CFAO 11-12:  you're looking for the part about MOC Reassignment.  Technically speaking, you can't "OT" until you meet the CFAO 11-12 requirements but this pers would be seeking a MOC Reassignment IAW the CFAO.  It's very likely the staff don't know or have never heard of MOC reassignments before. 

- Basic Training List Administrative Guide aka BTAGs:  Should be able to find a copy of it in the DIN BTL Management page to confirm if the info below/version is still the current one.

Here's what the BTAGs (v5 dated Apr 2010) say:

Occupation Reassignment

214. Overview
 Occupation reassignment is roughly equivalent to occupation transfer (OT), except that it applies to personnel on the SUTL or BTL who are not yet occupation qualified in their current occupation. This includes personnel who were previously qualified in another occupation (eg OTs, CFRs, component transfers, etc). While the basic process is very similar to that for OT, there are some specific policies affecting reassignment which are quite different. D Mil C7 is currently the CF occupation reassignment authority for all untrained personnel, and executes this responsibility IAW FA direction. Reassignment, like OT, is an integral part of CF retention initiatives and seeks to balance the career choices and aspirations of individual CF personnel with the legitimate needs of the service. CMP (FA) guiding principles in carrying out the procedures outlined below are procedural fairness and consistency.

215. Reassignment Lists
D Mil C 7 releases a monthly message detailing the occupations (both NCM and officer) open for BTL voluntary and compulsory reassignment for that month. For SUTL officers (ie those ROTP, UTPNCM, MOTP and DOTP officers still attending academic studies), there is an annual program conducted each fall for voluntary reassignment. Occupation reassignment lists are developed by D Mil C 7 based on intake requirements and training vacancies for each occupation. For BTL officer and NCM reassignments, the occupations that are considered open (in) are limited to those that have a remaining intake requirement against the Internal SIP for the current fiscal year (FY). The voluntary reassignment lists are further limited to occupations that are seriously under strength (IAW DGPR occupation status list) or are in danger of not meeting minimum training loads. The SUTL reassignment list is based on the remaining production requirement for the projected production year. This is developed from the FY production requirement detailed in the DGPR Statement of Production Requirements with the Long Range Planning Model ratios for ROTP/UTPNCM applied and taking into account any personnel already in the training system. Seriously undermanned occupations may have limited opportunities for voluntary reassignment out of the occupation.

216. Eligibility – Voluntary Reassignment
Personnel on the BTL/SUTL may request voluntary reassignment as indicated below:
a. BTL NCMs – after BMQ. May apply at any time after completion of BMQ and before completion of occupation training. May only request from voluntary list and may be limited out of under-strength occupations;

e. The trainee shall submit a written request through his chain of command clearly indicating the new MOSID(s) to which he/she is requesting VOR or, if the trainee has no new MOSID in mind and wishes to investigate what other MOSIDs for which he/she may be qualified. In the written request the trainee will clearly indicate what his/her career intentions (release or remain in current MOSID) should the trainee be deemed not suitable for VOR or the trainees decide that the MOSIDs offered are not personally acceptable. Personnel requesting a VOR will not normally be permitted to cease training.  However, the Basic Training Manager, in consultation with the Training Establishment, may decide that the trainee will be removed from training if capacity issues and/or administrative or disciplinary problems prove that the trainee is a disruptive influence or otherwise unacceptable presence on the a course.

219. PSO Interview/Report

IAW CFAO 11-5 and CFAO 10-1, untrained personnel are entitled to request reassignment within the guidelines established in this document and are to be referred to a PSO as part of that process. However, in cases where the occupation requested is clearly not open for reassignment, the PSO should contact the applicable BTL Manager to determine if the file should be processed. Obviously, the right to request reassignment does not establish a right to have the request granted, nor should it establish an expectation of approval. Normally, a PSO must interview anyone applying for (or being recommended for) reassignment and forward a CF 285 PSO Report to the approving authority.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- IMO the denial of the request to see the BPSO is outside the course staff authority.  Has the mbr asked to speak to the Crse Officer?  If the mbr follows Para 216 above, using the BTAG as the ref, not sure how they can see any other choice; its in black and white.

- I believe the OT/Reassignment function has been passed from D Mil C to DMCPG 3 (or something like that, a different sub-unit of DGMC); I think there was a 2013 or 14 CANFORGEN detailing the passing of the torch from D Mil C to them.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Jarnhamar on February 07, 2015, 12:29:50
What are the rules regarding recruits (at st-jean) speaking to BPSOs in order to get straight answers regarding OTing to a new trade?

I'm trying to assist someone who is a recruit at St-Jean right now. They are half way through their basic training and want to OT do a different trade than the one they originally picked.

They've gotten a lot of mixed advice from course staff such as they aren't allowed to speak to a PSO, they have to wait until they pass their basic training to speak to one, they can only speak to one after they are QL3 qualified.
The same goes with submitting an OT; they can't on basic, they have to wait until they are on their trades course, they have to wait until after the trades course.

Can a recruit submit a memo and ask to speak to a BPSO?  Can a recruit submit an OT during basic training so that they aren't effectively wasting a valuable spot on a QL3 course?
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: George Wallace on February 07, 2015, 12:38:54
What are the rules regarding recruits (at st-jean) speaking to BPSOs in order to get straight answers regarding OTing to a new trade?

I'm trying to assist someone who is a recruit at St-Jean right now. They are half way through their basic training and want to OT do a different trade than the one they originally picked.

They've gotten a lot of mixed advice from course staff such as they aren't allowed to speak to a PSO, they have to wait until they pass their basic training to speak to one, they can only speak to one after they are QL3 qualified.
The same goes with submitting an OT; they can't on basic, they have to wait until they are on their trades course, they have to wait until after the trades course.

Can a recruit submit a memo and ask to speak to a BPSO?  Can a recruit submit an OT during basic training so that they aren't effectively wasting a valuable spot on a QL3 course?

Although referring to an OT after Basic and at end of IE, this Thread may help with some of the References that MAY apply:

Changing trades after BMQ and contract is up (http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,113764.msg1284974.html#msg1284974)
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Jarnhamar on February 07, 2015, 12:50:00
Awesome, I'll give that a read through thank you very much.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 07, 2015, 15:34:25
They've gotten a lot of mixed advice from course staff such as they aren't allowed to speak to a PSO, they have to wait until they pass their basic training to speak to one, they can only speak to one after they are QL3 qualified.
The same goes with submitting an OT; they can't on basic, they have to wait until they are on their trades course, they have to wait until after the trades course.

Can a recruit submit a memo and ask to speak to a BPSO?  Can a recruit submit an OT during basic training so that they aren't effectively wasting a valuable spot on a QL3 course?

Just a little more info here (http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,113878.msg1286762.html#msg1286762).  I'm assuming the BTAGs haven't been amended recently. 

I don't know that they (technically) couldn't speak to a PSO but it is likely better to do that after BMQ grad as they can't apply for MOC Reassignment until they complete BMQ...and the list of what they can apply for is restricted (BTL monthly reassignment list aka the leftovers).
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Jarnhamar on February 07, 2015, 17:26:22
Thanks EITS

This is one of the people I helped get into the CF.  Against my sage advice they were pressured into going into a trade they didn't want by their recruiter.  I expected this to happen and here we are lol
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 07, 2015, 18:20:33
Thanks EITS

This is one of the people I helped get into the CF.  Against my sage advice they were pressured into going into a trade they didn't want by their recruiter.  I expected this to happen and here we are lol

I've read the monthly reassignment list on here recently in another thread (http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,117544.msg1345716.html#msg1345716)...it was pretty slim pickin's.  Now, if it were ME...knowing the mbr is expected to pick from the Reassignment list of the month they apply, and that we're close to the end of the FY, and they are only half way thru BMQ...and considering the BTAGs policy on "before QL3 starts, OR if between 25% and 75% complete" as when they can apply, I'd suggest to them that they don't submit their reassignment request until April or May - that might give them some better choices if the PSO won't budge on the 'they must pick from the BTL Monthly Reassignment list".

Hope they get a fair shot!
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: doublecheeseburgers99 on March 22, 2015, 00:47:55
I recently accepted my offer as an AVS tech and will be going away to BMQ next month. I was wondering if I can change trades at BMQ. Should I let my recruiter know now, or wait till I am at BMQ to put in a request? I am hoping to transfer over to Air Weapons Tech or Supply Tech. Any advice or information will be greatly appreciated.
I want to switch because I feel like I lack the skills and ability to work with electrical components and the training won`t do me much good. (Yes, I realize I should have considered this before I accepted my offer but I waited a long time for my application to go through and jumped at the first offer they gave me)*
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: mariomike on March 22, 2015, 01:08:04
I was wondering if I can change trades at BMQ.

Change of Trades during BMQ 
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=23075.0

remustering during BMQ?
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=113425.0

remuster during BMQ 
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=72382.0

Remustering while at BMQ 
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=37141.0

OT during BMQ 
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=93566.0

Occupational Transfer in BMQ
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=94670.0

etc.

Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: ManBun23 on November 03, 2015, 14:39:22
Hi all, I recently joined as a NCM in a naval reserve unit and got basic training to attend to this upcoming summer.
My question is that after basic training, would i be able to VOT to different element (army,airforce reserve) as an officer, or would I have to finish my QL requirements first as a NCM? If anyone can tell me about the new DAOD, it would be great.
Cheers.

Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: CombatMacgyver on November 03, 2015, 15:16:50
OT's are not unheard of prior to QL5 (or DP2 or whatever it's called now) but as far as I know it's not the path of least resistance.

NCM to Officer paths are discussed all over this board.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: mariomike on November 03, 2015, 15:23:31
My question is that after basic training, would i be able to VOT to different element (army,airforce reserve) as an officer, or would I have to finish my QL requirements first as a NCM?

This may help,

NCM > Officer,
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+ncm+officer&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=Rwk5VvPDBKTd8gfD97HoDw&gws_rd=ssl
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: seanm on August 07, 2016, 23:07:23
Anyone know the likely hood of switching from EME to Arty officer. Still currently doing BMOQ. I heard in the CAF's state right now they are looking for combat role officers.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: mariomike on August 07, 2016, 23:11:04
Anyone know the likely hood of switching from EME to Arty officer. Still currently doing BMOQ.

See also by seanm,

Reg to Res
http://milnet.ca/forums/index.php/topic,123747.msg1448375.html#msg1448375
I'm currently on BMOQ Mod 1. Is it possible to switch to my local infantry Reserve unit for BMQ?








Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: PuckChaser on August 07, 2016, 23:28:46
Anyone know the likely hood of switching from EME to Arty officer. Still currently doing BMOQ. I heard in the CAF's state right now they are looking for combat role officers.

Your inability to read is going to make you a terrible officer, for any trade you get placed in.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Andraste on August 08, 2016, 15:58:06
Anyone know the likely hood of switching from EME to Arty officer. Still currently doing BMOQ. I heard in the CAF's state right now they are looking for combat role officers.

Hello,

It is going to depend on a few things. However, you won't even be considered for voluntary occupation transfer - untrained (VOT(U)) until after your BMOQ.  If the CAF is going to invest money in you in either trade they want to see how you perform on basic military training. 

You would have to meet the entry standards for the target MOSID (ARTY) be interviewed by a Personnel Selection Officer and you file will go forward for consideration in competition with other folks applying for VOT-U.  It can be done but you will need to start by talking to your chain of command once you finish BMOQ.

Cheers

A
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 08, 2016, 19:58:47
See also by seanm,

Reg to Res
http://milnet.ca/forums/index.php/topic,123747.msg1448375.html#msg1448375
I'm currently on BMOQ Mod 1. Is it possible to switch to my local infantry Reserve unit for BMQ?

Andraste,

Would this also be true if the member is PRES?

SeanM, are you Reg or Reserver?
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Andraste on August 09, 2016, 15:56:50
Hi Eye,

This would be a bit different as the member is requesting to relinquish his rank and serve in the PRes as an NCM.  If the member is currently Regular Force he would have to submit a memo to his chain of command requesting a component transfer to the Reserve Force.  This may or may not be entertained depending on if he has any obligatory service under his current Regular Force Enrolment Plan (e.g., ROTP).  If it is granted it is possible he may have to formally submit a request to relinquish his rank to the CDS to continue to serve as an NCM in the Reserve Force. 

However if the member is currently Reserve Force officer wishing to serve as a Reserve Force as an NCM then he will need to submit a memo to his current chain of command requesting to relinquish his rank and continue to serve in the PRes as an NCM.  This will be approved by the officer approving the transfer (e.g., most likely the formation commander).

So long story short . . . I would need more information on where the member currently sits within his CAF career.

Cheers

Andraste
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: seanm on August 19, 2016, 23:58:37
I am Reg force ROTP.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: raouljohn on September 17, 2016, 11:13:12
Good day.

I have a question for the CAF recruiter: I have enrolled this year, I have done BMQ and BMQ-L, and I want to change my trade.

The clerk from my unit told me that I have to release from the army, because I am not fully trained in the trade that I choose at first (artillery), and I can't become a clerk, because now the courses are during the 2 summers. So, I just "wasted one summer".

So, within the first 2 years after enrollment, do I have to be fully trained or to do only BMQ, to ask for trade change.

BTW: I am talking about reserves.

Thank you very much!


John
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: R000 on November 28, 2016, 12:58:40
Can I (as a reservist) transfer from my unit to another before doing the DP1 (so while still having a cornflake on my beret)? 

I am with in the army since last spring.  Did all my basic courses ( BMQ and BMQ-L ) and never miss any days of training.  But I realize that this trade may not be for me after all. Few people around tell me I can transfer while others say I can't.  In my opinion, it will be kinda stupid to know I can't transfer.  I mean, why would you send somebody on a trade course that he doesn't wanna do and once done, he transfer anyway.

When I ask one of my instructor.  He simply ask questions like "Oh so you wanna leave us" or "Why you hate us".  And basically never answer my question.  I do understand why a unit try to keep theirs members (specially the one I go to since it small and they have lot of troubles recruiting).  But jeez...  It just a question.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: BC Old Guy on November 28, 2016, 13:40:11
Can I (as a reservist) transfer from my unit to another before doing the DP1 (so while still having a cornflake on my beret)? 

The issues will be :
-What trade /occupation will you be able to transfer into? Does the other unit offer this trade? - Depends on the results of your testing at the CFRC, and your medical.  Some require specific results (eg - Colour Vision - because much of what some trades do are colour coded, whiles other trades don't have that requirement)
-Is the unit you want to go to close enough for you to attend their training?
-Will the new unit accept you?

If the answers to any of these is "no" then you will not be able to transfer.

If the answeres are "yes" then you have a bureaucratic tangle to sort through, as your current unit needs to start the paperwork, the new unit needs to agree to accept, and the HQ needs to ensure that the you meet the requirements of the new unit. 

For the HQ to agree, they normally have a Reserve Personnel Selection Officer (PSO) review the file, and conduct an interview.  Most PSOs are on Cl A, so have limited time.  It may take some time to get the appointment, and more time for the report to be written and sent to the decision makers.

So - you can see this might take some time. 

Advice - take your trades training while waiting.  It will show your determination, and help with the decision process.  As well, you may find after training your will enjoy the unit and occupation more than you think so now.

BCOG
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: R000 on November 28, 2016, 14:38:34
This answer is simply perfect. 

Thanks a lot.  It is great to finally have a answer that make sense. :)
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: swonder25 on December 16, 2016, 00:50:11
Good evening everyone!

What kind of timeframe can one be looking at for a COT (from trb to new trade) or is this a case by case situation? I can't find anything in the regs with regards to this.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: swonder25 on December 16, 2016, 00:51:47
This would be Reg force Officer to another Officer trade. Thanks!
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: dapaterson on December 16, 2016, 00:57:45
It is a case by case situation, depending on (among other things) reasons for the COT, your CFAT, openings in other occupations...
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: swonder25 on December 16, 2016, 01:03:02
Just curious if you could ballpark it for me? If not your initial answer will more than suffice.

I was unsuccessful during my trade training, my CFAT score is quite good. So if for example I was lucky enough to be accepted into the #1 choice on my list, time from trb to new trade would be about 8-12 months?
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Guy Incognito on December 16, 2016, 17:00:14
8-12 months would be a timeline for falling through the cracks.

From the date of your PRB/TRB, you have 90 days to pick a new trade. After which, the process generally takes a short time to complete. I've heard of one month timelines, but I imagine they are the exception. Granted, my reassignment took 12 months, but that was due to a series of errors made in handling my file, which are not likely to be repeated.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: swonder25 on December 16, 2016, 17:11:56
Is there a reg somewhere for the 90 day thing?

It's been 3.5 weeks since my trb and I have not even been referred to a bpso.

I would love to get this sorted out as it seems 8-12 months in Esquimalt is the norm.

Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Guy Incognito on December 16, 2016, 23:28:19
Not on hand right now. It was in a CANFORGEN ca. 2010/2011. I'll find it when I to work tomorrow night (yay shift work!)
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: swonder25 on December 17, 2016, 00:13:47
That would be amazing! Thanks. Greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Guy Incognito on December 17, 2016, 20:34:25
...and here it is!

Quote
CANFORGEN 257/10 CMP 115/10 201435Z DEC 10

EXPEDITED RELEASE PROCESSING OF REG F MEMBERS ON THE BASIC TRAINING (TRG) LIST

UNCLASSIFIED


REFS: A. Q R AND O CHAP 15 RELEASE
 B. CFAO 15-1 RETENTION OF PERSONNEL ELIGIBLE FOR RELEASE ON MEDICAL GROUNDS
 C. DAOD 5019-2 - ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW
 D. DAOD 5023-1 - MINIMUM OPERATIONAL STANDARDS RELATED TO UNIVERSALITY OF SERVICE
 E. CDS DELEGATED RELEASE AUTHORITIES HTTP://HR.OTTAWA-HULL.MIL.CA/DGMP/DPGP/DOWNLOADS/DOCUMENTS/DOC(UNDERSCORE)CDS(UNDERSCORE)RELEASE(UNDERSCORE)AUTHORITIES(UNDERSCORE)REGF(UNDERSCORE)E.PDF
 F. CANFORGEN 031/09 CMP 017/09 122016Z FEB 09
 G. CANFORGEN 174/09 CMP 075/09 081338Z OCT 09
 H. CANFORGEN 225/10 CMP 099/10 091503Z NOV 10


1. AS NOTIFIED AT REF H, THIS MESSAGE SETS OUT DIRECTION TO STREAMLINE RELEASE PROCEDURES FOR REG F MEMBERS ASSIGNED TO THE BASIC TRG LIST. CONSERVATION OF PERSONNEL REMAINS A STRATEGIC OBJECTIVE IN ALL PHASES OF PERSONNEL PRODUCTION AND SO TRAINING ESTABLISHMENTS MUST CONTINUE TO MAKE ALL REASONABLE EFFORTS TO ENABLE TRAINEE SUCCESS. THE INTENT OF THIS POLICY GUIDANCE IS TO ENSURE THAT NEW ENTRY PERSONNEL WHO HAVE GENUINELY LOST INTEREST IN CONTINUING THEIR MILITARY SERVICE AND THOSE WHO ARE UNABLE TO MEET PERFORMANCE OR OTHER MILITARY STANDARDS ARE REMOVED FROM REG F STRENGTH AS EFFICIENTLY AS POSSIBLE


2. STREAMLINED RELEASE PROCEDURES APPLY TO THOSE MEMBERS WHO ARE BEING RELEASED UNDER Q R AND O 15.01 ITEMS 3 (MEDICAL), 4 (VOLUNTARY) AND 5 (SERVICE COMPLETED). ADDITIONAL DETAILS ON EACH CATEGORY FOLLOW


3. REQUEST FOR RELEASE - VOLUNTARY:

a. THE VOLUNTARY RELEASE OF REG F NCMS AND OFFRS WHO HAVE NOT INCURRED OBLIGATORY SVC OR ARE NOT ON A RESTRICTED PERIOD OF RELEASE IS TO BE EXPEDITED UNLESS THE MEMBER IS INTERESTED IN TRANSFERRING TO AN UNDER-STRENGTH OCCUPATION (SEE SUB-PARA B). FORMATION AND BASE /WING COMMANDERS ARE TO ENSURE THAT MEMBERS WHO HAVE RECEIVED A RELEASE INSTRUCTION HAVE PRIORITY ACCESS TO LOCAL RELEASE SECTION, MEDICAL, DENTAL AND PERSONNEL SELECTION OFFICER (PSO) SVCS. PSOS ARE TO LIMIT THE RELEASE INTERVIEW TO AN EXPLANATION OF THE SVCS THAT ARE AVAILABLE AFTER RELEASE


b. ON RECEIPT OF A MEMBER S REQUEST FOR A VOLUNTARY RELEASE, THOSE WHO ARE ASSIGNED TO A MILITARY OCCUPATION THAT IS AT STRENGTH OR OVER-STRENGTH (I.E. OCCUPATION STATUS CODE GREEN), SHALL BE GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY FOR A VOLUNTARY OCCUPATION TRANSFER-UNTRAINED TO AN UNDER-STRENGTH MILITARY OCCUPATION (I.E. OCCUPATION STATUS CODE RED). MEMBERS INTERESTED IN THE VOLUNTARY OCCUPATION TRANSFER-UNTRAINED OPTION SHALL BE COUNSELLED ON THE REQUIREMENT TO CONTINUE CURRENT TRAINING AND BE REFERRED TO THE PSO OFFICE FOR ASSESSMENT AND PROCESSING. OTHER REQUESTS FOR A VOLUNTARY OCCUPATION TRANSFER-UNTRAINED IN LIEU OF VOLUNTARY RELEASE SHALL ONLY BE CONSIDERED IN LIGHT OF SERVICE REQUIREMENTS


c. BASIC TRG LIST OFFICERS/OCDTS WHO HAVE INCURRED OBLIGATORY SERVICE AS A RESULT OF RECEIVING SUBSIDIZED EDUCATION WHILE ON FULL-TIME PAID DUTY WHO REQUEST VOLUNTARY RELEASE SHALL EITHER BE RELEASED WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER SIGNING THE PROMISSORY NOTE THAT OBLIGATES THE MEMBER TO REIMBURSE THE CF, OR THEY MAY REQUEST TO RELINQUISH THEIR RANK, TRAIN IN AN NCM MOSID, AND SERVE OUT THEIR OBLIGATORY SERVICE AS AN NCM. THE PRACTICE OF PLACING OCDTS ON ADMINISTRATIVE DUTIES (REFERRED TO AS ZULU) IS STRONGLY DISCOURAGED. OCDTS WHO WERE PLACED ON ADMINISTRATIVE DUTIES PRIOR TO THE RELEASE OF THIS CANFORGEN WILL BE PERMITTED TO SERVE THEIR REMAINING OBLIGATORY SERVICE. THEY MAY ALSO REQUEST A VOLUNTARY RELEASE IAW REF A PARA 15.07(2) OR REQUEST TO RELINQUISH THEIR RANK


d. BASIC TRG LIST NCMS WHO HAVE INCURRED OBLIGATORY SERVICE AS A RESULT OF RECEIVING FULL-TIME SUBSIDIZED EDUCATION AT A POST-SECONDARY INSTITUTION WHO REQUEST VOLUNTARY RELEASE SHALL BE RELEASED WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER SIGNING THE PROMISSORY NOTE THAT OBLIGATES THE MEMBER TO REIMBURSE THE CF, OR THEY MAY REQUEST TO SERVE OUT THEIR OBLIGATORY SERVICE AS A TRAINED NCM. SERVING OUT OBLIGATORY SERVICE WHILE UNTRAINED AT THE PRIVATE/CORPORAL RANK IS NOT AUTHORIZED



4. RELEASE SERVICE COMPLETED (I.E. NOT ADVANTAGEOUSLY EMPLOYABLE, IRREGULAR ENROLMENT, UNSUITABLE FOR FURTHER SERVICE)

a. MEMBERS AT CFLRS: UNLESS APPROVED FOR A RECOURSE, THE OFFRS AND NCMS WHO FAIL TO ATTAIN THE BASIC MILITARY QUAL/BASIC MILITARY OFFR QUAL OR MEET THE THRESHOLD FITNESS TEST STANDARD WITHIN THEIR FIRST WEEK AT CFLRS ARE TO BE PROCESSED FOR RELEASE WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS. BASIC TRG LIST MEMBERS WHO ARE NEARING THE END OF THEIR INITIAL TERMS OF SERVICE (TOS) WITHOUT COMPLETING BMQ/BASIC MILITARY OFFICER QUAL SHALL BE PROCESSED FOR AN EXPEDITED RELEASE. SHOULD RETENTION BE WARRANTED THE ADMINISTERING UNIT MAY, ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS, REQUEST A ONE YEAR CONTINUING ENGAGEMENT IN ORDER TO PERMIT AN ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW (IF REQUIRED) AND DETERMINATION OF SUITABILITY FOR FURTHER SERVICE


b. MEMBERS AT OTHER TRG ESTABLISHMENTS: OFFICERS AND NCMS WHO HAVE ATTAINED THE BMQ/BMOQ, BUT WHO FAIL TO ATTAIN THE BASIC MILITARY OCCUPATION QUALIFICATION FOR THEIR ASSIGNED OCCUPATION SHALL BE:

 (1) EXPEDITIOUSLY PROCESSED FOR RELEASE UNDER Q R AND O 15.01 ITEM 5 (SERVICE COMPLETED) IF NOT CONSIDERED SUITABLE FOR FURTHER SERVICE OR

 (2) OTHERWISE REFERRED TO THE PSO OFFICE TO DETERMINE SUITABILITY FOR A COMPULSORY OCCUPATION TRANSFER-UNTRAINED (COT-U). THE CHAIN OF COMMAND SHALL ENSURE THAT THE MEMBER MEETS WITH THE BASE OR WING PSO FOR AN INITIAL CAREER COUNSELLING SESSION WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS OF THE CEASE TRG DATE AND THAT THE PSO REPORT (CF 285) AND ALL ACCOMPANYING ADMINISTRATIVE PAPERWORK ARE SUBMITTED TO DGMC/DMILC 7 FOR A DETERMINATION OF FURTHER SERVICE WITHIN NINETY (90) DAYS OF THE CEASE TRG DATE. SHOULD THE MEMBER NOT BE INTERESTED IN TRANSFERRING TO A MILITARY OCCUPATION THAT IS AVAILABLE WITHIN 90 DAYS OF THE CEASE TRG DATE, THE MEMBER SHALL BE RELEASED WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS OF THIS DECISION. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY THE PRACTICE OF RETAINING A MEMBER ON THE BASIC TRG LIST UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A MILITARY OCCUPATION OF INTEREST TO THE MEMBER BECOMES AVAILABLE FOR OT UNTRAINED SHALL CEASE


c. BASIC TRG LIST OFFICERS/OCDTS WHO HAVE INCURRED OBLIGATORY SERVICE AS A RESULT OF RECEIVING SUBSIDIZED EDUCATION WHILE ON FULL TIME PAID DUTY AND WHO FAIL TO MAINTAIN A SATISFACTORY ACADEMIC STANDARD, ATTAIN BASIC MILITARY OFFICER QUAL OR ATTAIN BASIC MILITARY OCCUPATION QUAL (INCLUDING ON JOB TRAINING FOR APPLICABLE OCCUPATIONS) AND ARE RECOMMENDED FOR RELEASE, SHALL BE RELEASED WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS. OFFICERS/OCDTS WHO HAVE SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETED THE BASIC MILITARY OFFICER QUAL MAY BE CONSIDERED FOR COT U IAW SUB-PARA 4-B(2)


d. BASIC TRG LIST NCMS WHO HAVE INCURRED OBLIGATORY SERVICE AS A RESULT OF RECEIVING FULL-TIME SUBSIDIZED EDUCATION AT A POST-SECONDARY INSTITUTION AND WHO HAVE FAILED TO MAINTAIN A SATSIFACTORY ACADEMIC STANDARD, OR ATTAIN THE BMQ OR BASIC MILITARY OCCUPATION QUAL AND ARE RECOMMENDED FOR RELEASE, SHALL BE RELEASED WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS. NCMS WHO HAVE SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETED THE BMQ MAY BE CONSIDERED FOR COT-U IAW SUB-PARA 4B(2) ABOVE.


e. CONDUCT DEFICIENCIES: THE CF HAS ALSO IDENTIFIED A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF BASIC TRG LIST MEMBERS WITH CONDUCT DEFICIENCIES. IAW REF A, PARAS 15.21(1), 15.22 (1) AND 15.36(1) THESE MEMBERS SHALL BE RECOMMENDED FOR AN ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW. DMCA AND THE UNITS ADMINISTERING THESE MEMBERS ARE TO EXPEDITE THE COMPLETION OF THE ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW (IF REQUIRED) AND RELEASE PROCESSING


f. MEMBERS WHO ARE DISCOVERED PRIOR TO THE COMPLETION OF THE BASIC MILITARY OCCUPATION QUALIFICATION FOR THEIR ASSIGNED OCCUPATION TO HAVE MEDICAL LIMITATIONS WHICH PRE DATED ENROLMENT AND WHICH WOULD HAVE PRECLUDED ENROLMENT IF THEY HAD BEEN DISCLOSED OR DETECTED SHALL BE PROCESSED FOR RELEASE UNDER THE IRREGULAR ENROLMENT ITEM



5.RELEASE MEDICAL: THE CF HAS IDENTIFIED A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF BASIC TRG LIST MEMBERS WITH SERIOUS LONG-TERM MEDICAL LIMITATIONS. D MED POL AND DMCA SHALL EXPEDITE THE REVIEW AND PROCESSING OF MEDICAL RELEASES FOR THOSE BASIC TRG LIST MEMBERS WHO ARE UNABLE TO MEET THE MINIMUM OPERATIONAL STANDARDS ASSOCIATED WITH THE PRINCIPLE OF UNIVERSALITY OF SERVICE (REF D)


6. A REQUEST TO AMEND REF E TO FURTHER FACILITATE THE ADMINISTRATION OF BASIC TRAINING LIST RELEASES WILL BE STAFFED THROUGH SEPARATE CORRESPONDENCE


7. SIGNED BY RADM A. SMITH, CMP

Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: swonder25 on December 17, 2016, 22:15:57
You are definitely my new favourite person haha. Thanks a bunch!
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: swonder25 on June 27, 2017, 01:17:12
Hi again folks,

I was on here before looking for some information on COT's, which Guy Incognito was nice enough to find for me. My trb was at the end of November and that is when I was removed from course and cease trained. I interviewed with the bpso at the beginning of May (way beyond the 70 days in the Canforgen) and to date, still do not have a new trade.

Basically we are looking at 8-9 months and counting and given that I have already been advised on this msg board that 8-12 months would be falling through the cracks, I feel confident in saying this is getting a bit ridiculous. Is anyone aware of how I can find out out what is happening? What avenues would I have to rectify this delay? I am assuming I should be putting together a grievance based on the simple fact that the 30-70-90 timeline in the canforgen has been completely disregarded.

Thanks for your help!
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Guy Incognito on June 27, 2017, 10:07:32
Hi again folks,

I was on here before looking for some information on COT's, which Guy Incognito was nice enough to find for me. My trb was at the end of November and that is when I was removed from course and cease trained. I interviewed with the bpso at the beginning of May (way beyond the 70 days in the Canforgen) and to date, still do not have a new trade.

Basically we are looking at 8-9 months and counting and given that I have already been advised on this msg board that 8-12 months would be falling through the cracks, I feel confident in saying this is getting a bit ridiculous. Is anyone aware of how I can find out out what is happening? What avenues would I have to rectify this delay? I am assuming I should be putting together a grievance based on the simple fact that the 30-70-90 timeline in the canforgen has been completely disregarded.

Thanks for your help!

The 90 day timeline isn't 90 days and you're in your new trade:

Quote
(2) OTHERWISE REFERRED TO THE PSO OFFICE TO DETERMINE SUITABILITY FOR A COMPULSORY OCCUPATION TRANSFER-UNTRAINED (COT-U). THE CHAIN OF COMMAND SHALL ENSURE THAT THE MEMBER MEETS WITH THE BASE OR WING PSO FOR AN INITIAL CAREER COUNSELLING SESSION WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS OF THE CEASE TRG DATE AND THAT THE PSO REPORT (CF 285) AND ALL ACCOMPANYING ADMINISTRATIVE PAPERWORK ARE SUBMITTED TO DGMC/DMILC 7 FOR A DETERMINATION OF FURTHER SERVICE WITHIN NINETY (90) DAYS OF THE CEASE TRG DATE. SHOULD THE MEMBER NOT BE INTERESTED IN TRANSFERRING TO A MILITARY OCCUPATION THAT IS AVAILABLE WITHIN 90 DAYS OF THE CEASE TRG DATE, THE MEMBER SHALL BE RELEASED WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS OF THIS DECISION. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY THE PRACTICE OF RETAINING A MEMBER ON THE BASIC TRG LIST UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A MILITARY OCCUPATION OF INTEREST TO THE MEMBER BECOMES AVAILABLE FOR OT UNTRAINED SHALL CEASE

The 90 days represents a limit for you to have chosen a new trade and have been interviewed by the BPSO for suitability. By the sound of things, you've met that deadline. DGMC has no deadline to get you into a new trade. I too fell through the cracks on reassignment years ago. From my CT date to reassignment was 51 weeks. In my case, there was a misunderstanding between the BPSO and DGMC about whether or not I needed a new medical, and it stalled my file until someone figured out what was going on. Your best bet is to regularly contact the BPSO and inquire about the status of your file. Failing that, get your chain involved.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Untamed Spyder on December 09, 2017, 15:13:01
Hey, so I am currently in the Air Force and so far, i feel like i don't belong here. I heard its extremely complicated and a very long process to change elements. Anyone have any experience in changing elements? I'm RegF and currently a tech trade, Thinking about going into something combat arms. Anyone with any knowledge, lemme know!


Thanks!
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: mariomike on December 09, 2017, 15:52:11
I'm RegF and currently a tech trade, Thinking about going into something combat arms.

Depending how far along in your career as an AVS SYS TECH you are, this may, or may not, be of interest,

Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=23075.0
5 pages.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 09, 2017, 17:03:44
Hey, so I am currently in the Air Force and so far, i feel like i don't belong here. I heard its extremely complicated and a very long process to change elements. Anyone have any experience in changing elements? I'm RegF and currently a tech trade, Thinking about going into something combat arms. Anyone with any knowledge, lemme know!


Thanks!

Lots of us have changed elements and MOSIDs in the past.  It is not as complicated as it might seem, but can be daunting if you're quite new to the CAF and how the sea of regulations, policy and orders work.

Judging by your signature block, I'm going to guess you're at CFSATE or something...have you started your QL3 training yet?  You don't have enough time in to apply for the AVOTP (Annual Voluntary Occupational Transfer Program), but there is a possibility you might be eligible to apply for a MOC Reassignment.

Would help more to know where you're at in your training at this time.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Untamed Spyder on December 10, 2017, 01:25:28
Lots of us have changed elements and MOSIDs in the past.  It is not as complicated as it might seem, but can be daunting if you're quite new to the CAF and how the sea of regulations, policy and orders work.

Judging by your signature block, I'm going to guess you're at CFSATE or something...have you started your QL3 training yet?  You don't have enough time in to apply for the AVOTP (Annual Voluntary Occupational Transfer Program), but there is a possibility you might be eligible to apply for a MOC Reassignment.

Would help more to know where you're at in your training at this time.


Hey,


I'm currently at CFSCE doing POET. I'm not on my 3s yet. Do i just talk to my CoC about MOC Reassignment or how would that work?
Thanks for the help!
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 10, 2017, 02:11:24
Basically, I recommend you talk to your MCpl/Sgt, whoever you "next up" is a superior, and tell them you are thinking of changing trades and why.  They might try to tell you that you "can't OT, you don't have enough time in".  And they are right...you'd be looking at a MOC Reassignment IAW CFAO 11-12.

Here is a link that has some detail, from the CFAO (CF Admin Order).  https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,79625.msg754861.html#msg754861

Now, on top of that Order, there was also something that used to be in play called the Basic Training List Admin Guide...for MOC Reassignments, it states this:

Occupation Reassignment
214. Overview Occupation reassignment is roughly equivalent to occupation transfer (OT), except that it applies to personnel on the SUTL or BTL who are not yet occupation qualified in their current occupation. This includes personnel who were previously qualified in another occupation (eg OTs, CFRs, component transfers, etc). While the basic process is very similar to that for OT, there are some specific policies affecting reassignment which are quite different. D Mil C7 is currently the CF occupation reassignment authority for all untrained personnel [I would suspect this has changed...but its not really important who the OR authority is.  Suffice to say, it isn't CFSCE or CFSATE], and executes this responsibility IAW FA direction. Reassignment, like OT, is an integral part of CF retention initiatives and seeks to balance the career choices and aspirations of individual CF personnel with the legitimate needs of the service. CMP (FA) guiding principles in carrying out the procedures outlined below are procedural fairness and consistency.

215. Reassignment Lists

D Mil C 7 releases a monthly message detailing the occupations (both NCM and officer) open for BTL voluntary and compulsory reassignment for that month. For SUTL officers (ie those ROTP, UTPNCM, MOTP and DOTP officers still attending academic studies), there is an annual program conducted each fall for voluntary reassignment. Occupation reassignment lists are developed by D Mil C 7 based on intake requirements and training vacancies for each occupation. For BTL officer and NCM reassignments, the occupations that are considered open (in) are limited to those that have a remaining intake requirement against the Internal SIP for the current fiscal year (FY). The voluntary reassignment lists are further limited to occupations that are seriously under strength (IAW DGPR occupation status list) or are in danger of not meeting minimum training loads. The SUTL reassignment list is based on the remaining production requirement for the projected production year. This is developed from the FY production requirement detailed in the DGPR Statement of Production Requirements with the Long Range Planning Model ratios for ROTP/UTPNCM applied and taking into account any personnel already in the training system. Seriously undermanned occupations may have limited opportunities for voluntary reassignment out of the occupation.

216. Eligibility – Voluntary Reassignment

Personnel on the BTL/SUTL may request voluntary reassignment as indicated
below:
a. BTL NCMs – after BMQ. May apply at any time after completion of BMQ and before completion of occupation training. May only request from voluntary list and may be limited out of under-strength occupations;

e. The trainee shall submit a written request through his chain of command clearly indicating the new MOSID(s) to which he/she is requesting VOR or, if the trainee has no new MOSID in mind and wishes to investigate what other MOSIDs for which he/she may be qualified. In the written request the trainee will clearly indicate what his/her career intentions (release or remain in current MOSID) should the trainee be deemed not suitable for VOR or the trainees decide that the MOSIDs offered are not personally acceptable. Personnel requesting a VOR will not normally be permitted to cease training. However, the Basic Training Manager, in consultation with the Training Establishment, may decide that the trainee will be removed from training if capacity issues and/or administrative or disciplinary problems prove that the trainee is a disruptive influence or otherwise unacceptable presence on the a course.
-----------------------------------------------------

Now, I can't comment on if the BTAGs are the latest and up to date version, etc, however the policy would be something close to that, if not exact.

My recommendation is

1.  inform your CoC ASAP of your wishes and intentions. 
2.  be careful in your wording...you are not requesting an Occupation Transfer, you aren't trained yet.  You are requesting an MOC Reassignment.
3.  If you are sure you don't want to be "what trade you are now"...at the same time you can request they set up an appointment with the Personnel Selection Office to see a Personnel Selection Officer for assessment/consideration for Reassignment.  The PSO office will have all the latest rules and regs and lists that you'll need.
4.  be prepared to put it all in a memo to start a paper trail...your MCpl/Sgt should be able to help you with that.  If they won't...that's a different issue.
5.  expect some resistance and the odd Jedi Mind Trick (you don't want to switch trades...infantry isn't the trade you're looking for) from your CoC.

Need any other advice, come on back.  Oh, and yes, as you aren't trained yet in your MOSID you are on the BTL (not holding a position in a unit yet).
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Untamed Spyder on December 10, 2017, 11:56:00
Wow, Thank you very much!!


MCpl have already told me to think more about if i want bad knees in the future, lol. Anyways I will definitely look at writing a memo up and then submitting it. Thank you very much for all the help.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: mariomike on December 10, 2017, 12:19:48
Anyways I will definitely look at writing a memo up and then submitting it.

If requesting MOC Reassignment, you may, or may not, find these discussions of interest,
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&ei=Fl4tWr3nDZyjjwTL6Z2wCQ&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22MOC+Reassignment%22&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22MOC+Reassignment%22&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0.0.120271.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.W88veF-IG1E
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 11, 2017, 12:08:22
Wow, Thank you very much!!


MCpl have already told me to think more about if i want bad knees in the future, lol. Anyways I will definitely look at writing a memo up and then submitting it. Thank you very much for all the help.

Like I said, talk to them and ask about a PSO appointment to change trades....not an OT, a reassignment.  You might also hear it referred to as a VOT (U) - Voluntary Occupation Reassignment (Untrained).

I'll also attached a draft version of a DAOD from 2011 that was never signed off, but this also shows the way the VOT policy was going...not sure what the end state with this one ended up, but you'll see the VOT-U stuff in it starting on Page 8.

Not sure if the BTAGs are still in play either and don't have DWAN access at this time, but I'll attach them as well.  Don't discount CFAO 11-12 though...it was still Ref A on the last AVOTP competition message.  That is why I mentioned it and the MOC reassignment stuff.  You'll have to get that on this site (search for it) of from your CoC..CFAOs aren't avail on the internet.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Trecr on December 14, 2017, 10:54:30
Currently putting in a request for Occupational Reassignment. I'm still waiting for DP1, so not eligible for OT. I am wondering what causes most OR/OT to not be accepted. The trade I'm in is no longer red. The trade I'm trying to join currently is red.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 14, 2017, 13:16:51
Currently putting in a request for Occupational Reassignment. I'm still waiting for DP1, so not eligible for OT. I am wondering what causes most OR/OT to not be accepted. The trade I'm in is no longer red. The trade I'm trying to join currently is red.

Trade health of the losing/gaining trades is part of it...the other part could be largely what the PSO determines from their assessment.   :2c:
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on December 14, 2017, 13:17:42
Currently putting in a request for Occupational Reassignment. I'm still waiting for DP1, so not eligible for OT. I am wondering what causes most OR/OT to not be accepted. The trade I'm in is no longer red. The trade I'm trying to join currently is red.

Part of it is, as you mentioned, trade health of the losing/gaining trades.  The other large piece of the puzzle is likely the PSO determination/assessment of the file.   :2c:
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Trecr on December 15, 2017, 14:34:33
Anyone know the length of time I could expect to wait for a response from my VOR request? I'm supposed to go on DP1 in approx 7 weeks. I heard I wouldn't see any progress until July. We have a few people on PAT waiting for VOR's, and some have interviews with the BPSO, others are waiting forever, eventually go on DP1, and go to to regiment without ever hearing back.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: PuckChaser on December 15, 2017, 14:47:57
Every case is unique, and there's a lot of factors at play. You're not owed a VOR, and you have put yourself at the mercy of the system. Perhaps you should have put more thought into your trade choices on recruitment, as you had no other options listed other than Crewman.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Matthard on September 02, 2018, 15:45:35
I am needing a MOC reassignment as well, however, I am unsure how to create the memo. If someone could send me or direct me to a template I would appreciate it. I just finished BMQ and want to do it right. Thank you.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: mariomike on September 02, 2018, 16:27:12
I am needing a MOC reassignment as well, however, I am unsure how to create the memo.

This may, or may not, help,

MOC Reassignment Memo

https://www.google.com/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&biw=1280&bih=603&ei=zTmMW6yNKauPjwS5_6PYCw&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22moc+reassignment%22+memo&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22moc+reassignment%22+memo&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0.0.22879.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.kUWtSkt2fZA
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 03, 2018, 23:48:18
You could also ask your MCpl/Sgt/immediate superior for assistance.  It is part of their leadership function.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: MNicol on February 08, 2019, 21:07:53
Hi everyone! (I really hope this is where I’m supposed to post this.)

My name is Meghan and I’m a grade 11 student in Ontario. Like pretty much everyone else in high school, I’d rather not graduate university with a debt that causes me to mortgage my firstborn. The military seems to offer an ideal program, but I want to make sure it’s right for me.

1. If I do a grade 12 co-op, can I then join the Reg forces after it and attend a civilian university at the same time? (It has to be civilian because RMC doesn’t offer the degree that I want.) Would it still be covered by the Paid Education program?

2. Does the degree I get have to match the job I want in the military? For reference, I’d like a degree in Forensics, International Law or Journalism. The only jobs I can see myself doing and doing well in the CF are your basic Infantry Soldier or being an Imagery Technician. (I’d like to be a NCM)

I’m sorry if these are really common questions. I’ve looked around and can’t seem to find any answers to my specific questions.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: kratz on February 08, 2019, 21:26:37
Enrolling with a PRes unit during a co-op means you will be doing an OT for Image Tech and CT for both trades you mentioned.

RegF NCM paid education is mostly through an ILP (https://navy.ca/forums/index.php?topic=27773.50). The key part to this,
is that it must apply to your trade. So a forensics degree would not be approved for an Image Tech.

If you have your heart set on a degree, ROTP at RMC (https://navy.ca/forums/index.php/topic,129572.0.html) is the only option this FY, except for 8 specified Officer trades.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: MNicol on February 08, 2019, 21:44:22
What degree would be best for Infantry?

Would a Journalism degree match with Imagery Tech or would I need more specific training?
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: kratz on February 08, 2019, 21:49:17
NCM trades do not require a degree. The BPSO is the best person to recommend what degree might be accepted for an ILP.

If you choose the ROTP route, any degree is suitable for Infantry Officer.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: MNicol on February 08, 2019, 22:04:30
Thank you for the information! I will be sure to do that ASAP.

Have a good night. :)
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: hathway on February 19, 2019, 15:38:57
I have a question regards of Component Transfers CT, I want to transfer from Army to Air Force, right after I finish my BMQ, I was applied for Air Force Supply Tech but somehow the recruiting center give me an Army Supply Tech offer, I was waited 13 months already and didn't want wait anymore so I  signed Army offer, now I am on the middle of my BMQ. Could any one give me some directive or a link for what to do, any suggestion will be very appreciated, thank you in advance.   
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: mariomike on February 19, 2019, 15:44:06
I have a question regards of Component Transfers CT, I want to transfer from Army to Air Force, right after I finish my BMQ, I was applied for Air Force Supply Tech but somehow the recruiting center give me an Army Supply Tech offer, I was waited 13 months already and didn't want wait anymore so I  signed Army offer, now I am on the middle of my BMQ.

Sounds like you want an Element change,

Element Transfer
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=94747.0

element change 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=92932.0
2 pages.

What element to pick 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=121873.0

Switching "Wrong" Element Wait Time?
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=116234.0
2 pages.

etc...

As Supply Tech is a Purple trade, see also,

Purple Trades
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=22558.125
11 pages.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: hathway on February 19, 2019, 15:55:36
thank you
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: mariomike on February 19, 2019, 15:57:34
thank you

You are welcome. Good luck. :)
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: TheSnake on March 25, 2019, 14:58:51
Res here and looking to switch trades however what would be more useful civi side ? Supply Teck or HRA Clerk

Also how do I do this (is this called a VOT since I only have my basic done )
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: humblesoldier on August 29, 2019, 07:13:51
My Apologies If my question sounds stupid but I just wanted to understand the know hows of this. Are soldiers allowed to transfer between trades in the forces ? Like from artillery to Infantry or must you stick with the one you choose at start. After how long can you choose another trade ?
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 29, 2019, 08:39:36
Yes, you can apply (request) to change trades (Occupational Transfer).  If you're already trade qualified in a current trade, the time requirements are 36 months of service if you are in a combat arms trade (Infantry, Armoured, Artillery, Combat Engineer) or 48 months of service for all other NCM trades.

You can also request something called a MOC Reassignment if you aren't trade qualified yet and in the training system.

There are some rules, requirements for each of the OT and MOC Reassignment which you'll probably find if you search/read thru this thread.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: mariomike on August 29, 2019, 11:42:20
Are soldiers allowed to transfer between trades in the forces ?

See also,

Voluntary Occupational Transfer ( VOT )
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,21109.0.html
47 pages.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: jdem007 on August 29, 2019, 17:17:31
Hey guys,

First, I would like to apologize if this has been posted before. I tried to do some research and looked for previous posts but I stumbled upon nothing. So I have applied to join the Canadian Army since November 2017. At first I was told I was successful for the CFAT but don't have enough score to join as DEO/ Officer. So I applied for the NCM trades. I was told I'd have more chances of getting into Combat Engineer rather then what I want to get into. I have a degree in B.Sc. in Earth Science and Physical Geography. So my background is more towards geomatics and drafting survey fields. I'm really hoping to get into either geomatics or drafting survey but was told I might not be qualified due to my CFAT score. So here's my question, in case I don't get into either the fields I like. What is the likelihood of me switching trades down the road once I join the army? I can see myself having a career with the CAF but most likely in something that I would love doing. Not that I'm saying I can't do combat engineer since I'm always up for new challenges and learn something new. But I just don't want my bachelor degree to go to waste. So I want to know if it would be easy to switch trades down the road. Therefore, I would welcome anybody with any information, and anyone who could give me some advice. I would really appreciate it.

Please and thank you.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: mariomike on August 29, 2019, 17:24:50
What is the likelihood of me switching trades down the road once I join the army?

See also,

Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,23075.0.html
8 pages.

Voluntary Occupational Transfer ( VOT )
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,21109.0.html
47 pages.

MOC Reassignment
https://www.google.com/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&ei=DDVoXbCXOqiw_QaL3JXADQ&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+MOC+Reassignment&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca+MOC+Reassignment&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0..29685...0.0..0.0.0.......0......gws-wiz.8W0QFsFH4kk&ved=0ahUKEwiwzfOb9ajkAhUoWN8KHQtuBdgQ4dUDCAo#spf=1567110444713




Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 29, 2019, 18:51:30
Hey guys,

First, I would like to apologize if this has been posted before. I tried to do some research and looked for previous posts but I stumbled upon nothing. So I have applied to join the Canadian Army since November 2017. At first I was told I was successful for the CFAT but don't have enough score to join as DEO/ Officer. So I applied for the NCM trades. I was told I'd have more chances of getting into Combat Engineer rather then what I want to get into. I have a degree in B.Sc. in Earth Science and Physical Geography. So my background is more towards geomatics and drafting survey fields. I'm really hoping to get into either geomatics or drafting survey but was told I might not be qualified due to my CFAT score. So here's my question, in case I don't get into either the fields I like. What is the likelihood of me switching trades down the road once I join the army? I can see myself having a career with the CAF but most likely in something that I would love doing. Not that I'm saying I can't do combat engineer since I'm always up for new challenges and learn something new. But I just don't want my bachelor degree to go to waste. So I want to know if it would be easy to switch trades down the road. Therefore, I would welcome anybody with any information, and anyone who could give me some advice. I would really appreciate it.

Please and thank you.

My question at this point;  have you considered rewriting the CFAT after some 'prep' for it?  That might open up the DEO route and/or the Geo Tech (https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/caf-jobs/career-options/fields-work/technicians/geomatics-tech.html) and Drafting & Surveying Tech  (https://forces.ca/en/career/drafting-and-survey-technician/)trades. 

And here's the big reason I ask about rewriting your CFAT after some prep;  to do an Occupational Transfer into a different trade if you are in the Forces already, you must have passed the CFAT levels for that trade. 

Rewriting CFAT is a must at this point if you want to go DEO, Geo Tech or Drafting/Survey Tech at any point.  Personally, I say the effort is worth it;  I had to rewrite my CFAT as the trade I wanted to OT into didn't exist when I joined the CAF.  I basically brushed up on some math, with a focus on fractions, and I was successful.  The effort of a few weeks has paid off for years now and will pay off until I retire from the Forces.

Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: jdem007 on September 05, 2019, 16:43:32
Hey guys,

Thank you @mariomike for your reply. I will definitely check those links.

Hello @ Eye In The Sky. Thanks for your reply!

I really want to rewrite the CFAT if that is what it would take, I'm just not sure if it is possible though as I had already written the CFAT twice. I was told it's futile to have a third go at it. Both time I wrote the CFAT I don't think I had prepared properly. But I'm willing to work and study hard if I could write it again. Another thing I should mention, my file just got transferred from Ottawa to Edmonton and now I'm waiting to get an email regarding the interview. It took a while for my medical to get approved ( my fault though) but I'm not sure how long it is going to take to get an interview. When I updated my file after my file expired, I was told I could add Geo Tech or Drafting/Survey Tech as my choices since they have them opened but during the interview I would be advised I fit to these categories or not. So I was wondering should I ask to rewrite the CFAT now? if I could rewrite it a third time. I just don't want this to keep dragging and I really want to join the CAF. Any advice is appreciated.

Thank you!
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: mariomike on September 05, 2019, 17:28:54
Thank you @mariomike for your reply.

You are welcome. Good luck.  :)

I really want to rewrite the CFAT if that is what it would take, I'm just not sure if it is possible though as I had already written the CFAT twice.

For reference to the discussion,

I have a quick question about doing a re-write
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=109185.0

CFAT Rewrite 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=107773.0

CFAT Re-write
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNStShvfT3emySLRzD4VTcZeZC5FYw%3A1567715048735&source=hp&ei=6G5xXeuoKoPQ0PEP25KX8AQ&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+re+write&oq=si&gs_l=psy-ab.1.1.35i39l2j0i67j0j0i131l2j0l3j0i131.1498.1822..4020...0.0..0.230.433.2-2......0....1..gws-wiz.Pg4nHoieqCQ#spf=1567715052808

As you are an applicant, Recruiting is your most trusted source of official up to date information.

"Unofficial site, not associated with DND or the Canadian Armed Forces."

Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: jdem007 on September 10, 2019, 00:28:32
Awesome!

Thank you for the links and the reply.
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: mariomike on September 10, 2019, 00:51:47
Awesome!

Thank you for the links and the reply.

You are welcome. Good luck.  :)
Title: Re: Occupational and Component Transfers (OT/CT/VOT) During and After BMQ (Merged)
Post by: jdem007 on September 12, 2019, 21:55:18
Thanks!! I need it :)