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The Parade Square => Training => Topic started by: noneck on December 13, 2004, 23:09:44

Title: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: noneck on December 13, 2004, 23:09:44
Has anyone heard of this? I have been in contact with the organizers and they state that the wings are official and are authorized for wear.

http://pathfinder.twilightsociety.com/basictraining.html

Here is the website for the training facility:
http://pct.absolutions.nl/content/opleidingen/militair.asp?PAG=PG1&LNG=EN

Would this be worthwhile training?

Noneck
Title: Re: Dutch Army Jump Course Open to Canadians at Paracentrum Texel
Post by: JP on December 15, 2004, 09:45:54
The course is good depending on the instructors and the group you go with. There are several organizations that run these courses.
I did the course this year with the ABMP (www.abmp.ca or www.abmp.freeserve.co.uk)
The training is very basic. You are expected to be in shape, and not be a punter.
Some ground work and then 5 jumps. There is the chance that you won't be able to jump due to weather, so you should be prepared for that. Amsterdam isn't that far away! In fact, nothing is that far away. Everything is reachable by train. Nijmegen, Arnhem, France, Germany.
Current dress regulations do not allow you to wear foreign wings, unless you have the CDN course, and even then there are a lot of people that will be in your face about it.
Contact the ABMP rep in Scotland via the UK site above for information about Pathfinder. The two organizations have worked alongside eachother for a few years.
What do want to accomplish doing this training?
Title: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Ranger Rick on December 12, 2006, 02:40:36
I am aware that this is a somewhat touchy issue for some people because they find it degrades what they worked for. That however is not what I am starting this thread for.

Regardless I am interested in traveling to Holland this year to attend the parachutist course there. Now it was my understanding that you are NOT allowed to after completion of the course to wear the Dutch wings on your CF DEUs. However my section commander was in the Airborne Regiment and wears his CF wings his Pathfinder wings and a set of foreign wings on his right breast. I searched around the site but could not find the answers. If some one knows them or can point me to where I can look, thanks.



Rick
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Michael O'Leary on December 12, 2006, 08:41:44

A-AD-265-000/AG-001
CANADIAN FORCES DRESS INSTRUCTIONS
2001-06-15

Page 3-3-4

Quote
FOREIGN FLYING AND SPECIALIST SKILL BADGES

14. Personnel who have been presented equivalent badges of allied countries as a result of qualifications obtained on a course prescribed by the CF, shall wear the applicable CF badge according to wear instructions in paragraphs 7. and 8. and Annex B.

15. Where an equivalent CF badge has not been designed or approved for wear, the allied country badge presented for the prescribed qualification shall be worn like a CF badge according to wear instructions In paragraphs 7. and 8. and Annex B. If wearing both a CF badge and a foreign badge, the CF badge shall take precedence. The following prescribed foreign qualification badges are authorized for wear on the CF uniform:

a. United States Army Ranger Badge (a sleeve badge); and

b. United States Army Special Forces Badge (a sleeve badge).

16. Personnel who have been presented equivalent badges of allied countries as a result of qualifications obtained on a course prescribed by the CF, and those who have been presented honorary qualification badges while attached to, or serving with the armed forces of an allied country, may wear the appropriate metal or cloth badge, on the right breast of the service dress and mess dress jacket only while on duty in the specific allied country, when subsequently working with the armed forces of the country or when attending a formal function sponsored by the country concerned. Foreign badges shall be positioned as follows:

a. Navy (Blue Service Dress Jacket). Centred 0.6 cm (1/4 in.) below the name tag, displacing downward any command badge worn.

b. Navy (High Collared White Jacket), Army and Air Force. Centred on the right breast pocket, above and evenly spaced with any command badge.

c. Mess Dress. A single miniature metal foreign flying, or specialist skill badge may be worn on mess dress under the same circumstances as the full size version on service dress. Naval personnel may wear foreign miniatures, but only of a cloth format.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Ranger Rick on December 12, 2006, 09:43:06
Neither of the first post links work for me, can anyone tell me if its me or the links?
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: George Wallace on December 12, 2006, 10:07:58
Neither of the first post links work for me, can anyone tell me if its me or the links?

Sorry that post is two years old.  Perhaps Noneck has up to date links.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: WarrenpeacE- on December 12, 2006, 10:08:40
the second link worked, first did not.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Journeyman on December 12, 2006, 10:09:01
"Prescribed by the CF" means simply that the wings are legitimate military parachute wings.

Badges, such as the Dutch Jump Wing (http://www.pathfindergroupuk.com/Wings/Dutch%20wing%20copy.jpg) are legit.

Badges from Civilian parachute clubs (http://www.cspa.ca/Merchandise/merch.htm) are not.

Badges from certain Walter Mitty-esque organizations ::) (http://www.1st-gryphon-parachute-squadron.com/insigniawings.htm)  are not.

The Dutch basic para has been contracted (Alternate Service Delivery) to a civilian skydiving club. If a graduate is posted subsequently to a jump line serial, such as the Royal Netherlands' Marines or 11 Airmobile Brigade, the gaining unit will then teach real paratrooping skills, such as rigging & jumping weapons, ruck, etc. But it is a NATO-approved jump qualification (which may be a comment on NATO's decline).

All those Dress Regs Mike posted can be distilled down to "you can wear them when you're serving in that foreign country and if you're officially hosting/working with military pers from that country" - - may not come up too often for an Ontario-based Reserve Pte.

Because their basic is now just a civie skydiving course - - "go out the door, turn left" - - that, as mentioned, anyone can simply buy the qualification, there are a LOT of posers out there now padding their ninja-sniper qualifications with real jump wings. Having the wings may not get you the response you were hoping for.

I'm just sayin'......
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Danjanou on December 12, 2006, 11:32:53
"Prescribed by the CF" means simply that the wings are legitimate military parachute wings.

Badges, such as the Dutch Jump Wing (http://www.pathfindergroupuk.com/Wings/Dutch%20wing%20copy.jpg) are legit.

Badges from Civilian parachute clubs (http://www.cspa.ca/Merchandise/merch.htm) are not.

Badges from certain Walter Mitty-esque organizations ::) (http://www.1st-gryphon-parachute-squadron.com/insigniawings.htm)  are not.

The Dutch basic para has been contracted (Alternate Service Delivery) to a civilian skydiving club. If a graduate is posted subsequently to a jump line serial, such as the Royal Netherlands' Marines or 11 Airmobile Brigade, the gaining unit will then teach real paratrooping skills, such as rigging & jumping weapons, ruck, etc. But it is a NATO-approved jump qualification (which may be a comment on NATO's decline).

All those Dress Regs Mike posted can be distilled down to "you can wear them when you're serving in that foreign country and if you're officially hosting/working with military pers from that country" - - may not come up too often for an Ontario-based Reserve Pte.

Because their basic is now just a civie skydiving course - - "go out the door, turn left" - - that, as mentioned, anyone can simply buy the qualification, there are a LOT of posers out there now padding their ninja-sniper qualifications with real jump wings. Having the wings may not get you the response you were hoping for.

I'm just sayin'......

Geez JM  you get anymore wings and assorted boy scout badges for your uniform you’ll have to get a cape issued to display them all.  >:D

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lf-ioc-ukcommand.org.uk%2F21340161.JPG&hash=75cda7c1e50d675c25a68b457c725e59)
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Journeyman on December 12, 2006, 12:02:31
That pic looks vaguely religious....so you know it isn't me.   >:D
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Danjanou on December 12, 2006, 12:08:06
That pic looks vaguely religious....so you know it isn't me.   >:D

Ooops you're right. This is more like it
 
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lf-ioc-ukcommand.org.uk%2F20910018.JPG&hash=c8529b09d5977411dddd7cb40537ac7b)
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Ranger Rick on December 12, 2006, 12:19:45
Thanks for helping me out with this one guys, Yea I wouldn't so much be doing it to wear them on my DEUs but for the experience. Because my chances for getting onto a CF B Para course also are not to high as a Pte reservist from Ontario.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: MickNotMac on December 13, 2006, 03:11:07
If you're just doing it for the experience, you can do a civvy jump course in Ontario.  There's even one in Grand Bend, not too far away from you.  Or you can leave 4RCR like I did and join the regs ;D
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Breacher41 on December 13, 2006, 03:51:34
Um....is it me or does the photos from the class of 2002 have some canadian members in it? one's even seen wearing his cadpat helmet...um...is the wearin of your uniform permitted when you're on that course?!  ???
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: x-grunt on December 13, 2006, 09:00:01
Thanks for helping me out with this one guys, Yea I wouldn't so much be doing it to wear them on my DEUs but for the experience. Because my chances for getting onto a CF B Para course also are not to high as a Pte reservist from Ontario.

If you aren't aware of it, there are several nations that allow military jumpers to take their courses or jump with them in some way. Except for the Dutch and the Polish, they want the person to already have a basic para qual. So you can use those courses to open the door to other opportunities.

See here: http://www.airbornepage.com/ (http://www.airbornepage.com/) they set up military jump vacation tours.

I'll hazard a guess that nothing can really replicate the experience of a military jump course and you'll likely never get to wear the wings. But maybe this is as close as we can get without getting loaded on the CF para course.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: geo on December 13, 2006, 09:24:12
Would imagine that the CSOR & JTF2 will be tying up the Para courses for some time to come.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Journeyman on December 13, 2006, 09:50:56
x-grunt's link to the airbornepage.com shows a pic of an unusual parachute badge with bat wings. The legend says it is from the "13th Inf. Regiment (Texas Volunteer Field Forces)." No joy with Google trying to find such a unit, so I suspect they may be similar to the "Walter Mitty-esque" organization I linked to in my original post.

Danjanou, I don't know if those pics are from your personal collection, but you're starting to scare me   ;)
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: x-grunt on December 13, 2006, 10:56:41
Whups. Completely missed that others had posts and links to similar orgs in my half-asleep skim through the thread.
Next time I'll drink my morning coffee before I go online.

Those Walter Mitty-esque groups of Journeyman's are just a little creepy.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Journeyman on December 13, 2006, 11:03:58
Those Walter Mitty-esque groups of Journeyman's are just a little creepy.

Hey! They're not mine!!  My "creepy goup" is currently NDHQ   ;)
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Rider Pride on December 13, 2006, 11:13:16
Would imagine that the CSOR & JTF2 will be tying up the Para courses for some time to come.

Why do you say that?
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Haggis on December 13, 2006, 11:20:18
My "creepy group" is currently NDHQ   ;)

HEY!!

I resemble that remark!
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Breacher41 on December 13, 2006, 12:46:18
I've heard it from the rumor mill before that if you were basic parachute qualified from the States, you can apply to do a few (3?) jumps with a Canadian unit and you're good to go on your Canadian Jump wings. True?

If that's true, isnt there some way to do a round about way? ie. Dutch Para, US Para then hitch up with the QYRang when they do their jumps and voila! Canaidan Jump Wings! Maybe I'm OVER simplifying...but would that possibly work?
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Danjanou on December 13, 2006, 12:51:00
Danjanou, I don't know if those pics are from your personal collection, but you're starting to scare me   ;)

Just starting to?  I have to try harder >:D
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Haggis on December 13, 2006, 13:02:38
I've heard it from the rumor mill before that if you were basic parachute qualified from the States, you can apply to do a few (3?) jumps with a Canadian unit and you're good to go on your Canadian Jump wings. True?

If that's true, isnt there some way to do a round about way? ie. Dutch Para, US Para then hitch up with the QYRang when they do their jumps and voila! Canaidan Jump Wings! Maybe I'm OVER simplifying...but would that possibly work?

The only ways that I know of for a CF member to earn Canadian jump wings are:

a. take basic para;
b. remuster to SAR tech;
c. join the Skyhawks.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Breacher41 on December 13, 2006, 13:05:02
c. join the Skyhawks.


and they currently accept ppl with Civi jump quals dont they?
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: geo on December 13, 2006, 14:28:58
Why do you say that?
It goes without saying that with the raising of the CSOR and the expansion of JTF2,  positions on current basic para courses will be filled up by them prior to opening any serials that will be offered to individuals who do not have an immediate need to qualify.  Also our Herc fleet is seeing extensive use going in & out of Afhanistan... the fleet is clocking up an awful lot of hours delivering the goods - hard to believe they will be offering para courses to any but those who really need the qualification "right this very instant"
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Rider Pride on December 13, 2006, 14:40:24
I agree with your line of thought, but:
-everyone in CSOR who needs to be para qualifed probably is by now and,
-Is not the school using CASA aircraft as thier platform for all para courses now?
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Haggis on December 13, 2006, 15:37:46

and they currently accept ppl with Civi jump quals dont they?

Yes, but, according to their web site: (http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/LF/English/3_3_1_1_6.asp)

"Augmentation to the team is required annually and is open to all CF members who meet the following minimum criteria:

-Qualified Basic Parachutist (NCO - AHMD, Officer - AEIM);
-Qualified QL4 or Second Lieutenant in any trade or classification;
-Qualified Military Freefall Parachutist or hold an "A" certificate issued by the Canadian Sport Parachuting Association with a minimum of 50 freefall jumps; and,
-Be recommended by their unit Commanding Officer.

Members who apply must be prepared to pass the Para physical fitness test upon their arrival at the Canadian Parachute Centre."

Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Journeyman on December 13, 2006, 15:38:42
The only ways that I know of for a CF member to earn Canadian jump wings are:

a. take basic para;
b. remuster to SAR tech;
c. join the Skyhawks.

SAR Techs don't get the standard Canadian army jump wings...so "b" isn't going to help buddy's scheme to somehow get Canadian jump wings.

I'm kind of curious how doing the Dutch (skydive-lite) course will somehow get him loaded on a US serial, so that he can subsequently do famil jumps with the Canadians, and get the wing  ???
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: geo on December 13, 2006, 15:51:33
I agree with your line of thought, but:
-everyone in CSOR who needs to be para qualifed probably is by now and,
-Is not the school using CASA aircraft as thier platform for all para courses now?

CSOR is a unit that is still filling out.  Still lots of positions being filled.
CASA planes - wouldn't know......
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Journeyman on December 13, 2006, 15:54:07
CASA planes - wouldn't know......

CPC has been chartering a CASA 212 for many (most?) of their recent serials. Interesting trivia is that it's not certified for para ops in Canada, so there's a Loggie Capt in the Directorate of Army Training that has to ask Transport Canada for a waiver each time it's used.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Breacher41 on December 13, 2006, 18:09:14
SAR Techs don't get the standard Canadian army jump wings...so "b" isn't going to help buddy's scheme to somehow get Canadian jump wings.

I'm kind of curious how doing the Dutch (skydive-lite) course will somehow get him loaded on a US serial, so that he can subsequently do famil jumps with the Canadians, and get the wing  ???


no no I was just theorizing, maybe the US military allows someone with an allied jump course to jump with them i.e. the Netherlands Brevet B, hence earning their wing, and ergo able to apply for a Canadian Jump Wing with some jumps.

Ya I know the SAR Techs dont get jump wings, :) the PARACHUTE is incorporated into their wing already isnt it?  :) I also talked to a SAR Tech and their chutes arent the airborne domed ones, and are the square chutes maybe that's why dont get it too?
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: George Wallace on December 13, 2006, 18:32:13
You're starting to loose it. 
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Haggis on December 13, 2006, 19:04:33
no no I was just theorizing, maybe the US military allows someone with an allied jump course to jump with them i.e. the Netherlands Brevet B, hence earning their wing, and ergo able to apply for a Canadian Jump Wing with some jumps.

Instead of trying to find an easy way to "acquire" CF jump wings (as opposed to "earning" them), why not just get fit, take Basic Para and wear 'em with well earened pride?

Quote
Ya I know the SAR Techs dont get jump wings, :) the PARACHUTE is incorporated into their wing already isnt it?  :) I also talked to a SAR Tech and their chutes arent the airborne domed ones, and are the square chutes maybe that's why dont get it too?

And I agree with George Wallace.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Breacher41 on December 13, 2006, 19:15:25
No. I don't want the easy way. If I could get on a Para course I would jump at the opportunity.


Ya I probably am losing it GW & Haggis...*sigh* oh well time to hit the books again.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Haggis on December 13, 2006, 19:19:41
If I could get on a Para course I would jump at the opportunity.

 :rofl: That's punny!
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Breacher41 on December 13, 2006, 19:29:36
Oh my...lol no pun intended...although it was quite funny eh?


wait...did you mean funny? or punny? as in *in Arnold's voice* YOU PUNNY MAN!
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: French CDO #7 on December 16, 2006, 09:09:00
During my posting in West Germany 1984-88 I completed a French Commando Training Course in Kiel, I also completed French Army Basic Para Course which was run after the Commando training. I am not qualified CDN Para. I was authorised to wear both French Wings and French Commando Badge #7 on the CF's while serving overseas. Once I returned to Canada I was to bring down the foreign badge and wings due to CF Policy. I have been serving in the CF 26 years now and follow the same policy. I see it this way If you are qualified whether the badges or wings are seen or not. You know you are qualified and been there. I got the logs to prove it. Thats' life ;)
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: geo on December 16, 2006, 12:52:02
(they also make dandy wall decorations when mounted in a frame)
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Kunu on December 16, 2006, 13:45:03
CPC has been chartering a CASA 212 for many (most?) of their recent serials. Interesting trivia is that it's not certified for para ops in Canada, so there's a Loggie Capt in the Directorate of Army Training that has to ask Transport Canada for a waiver each time it's used.

Not to totally hijack this thread, but is this waiver required only because it's a chartered civvy aircraft?  I'd thought that DND was generally allowed to do things it's own way WRT to aviation.  By this I mean we're not regulated by Transport Canada per se, although the two departments work hand in hand in areas where concerns overlap.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Journeyman on December 16, 2006, 13:51:57
Response by PM to keep thread on topic
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: slayer14 on January 22, 2017, 15:06:11
Anyone notice the CDS wearing US and another country's (not sure which) jumps wings yesterday at the CF appreciation nhl game in Toronto yesterday?
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: PuckChaser on January 22, 2017, 15:31:09
Looked like US jump wings. Dude has enough bling, he doesn't need to wear more in contravention to the dress regs (The presence of a US officer doesn't make it a US military event or "working" with the US).
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: LunchMeat on January 22, 2017, 17:26:56
Looked like US jump wings. Dude has enough bling, he doesn't need to wear more in contravention to the dress regs (The presence of a US officer doesn't make it a US military event or "working" with the US).

It's the CDS... I highly doubt anyone is going to correct the CDS, and to be honest I really don't care if he's wearing US Jump Wings. If it makes him feel better about being the CDS, all the power to him, I think there's bigger fish to fry in this day and age.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: AmmoTech90 on January 22, 2017, 19:08:30
It's the CDS... I highly doubt anyone is going to correct the CDS, and to be honest I really don't care if he's wearing US Jump Wings. If it makes him feel better about being the CDS, all the power to him, I think there's bigger fish to fry in this day and age.

Someone should have pointed it out to him, perhaps the CFCWO or his EA/ADC?  Funny how a popular CDS gets a bye; if it wasn't JV there would be howls of protest methinks.  There's the whole lead by example thing.  But as pointed out in the budget thread the fastest way the CAF can spend money is more bling so I guess he is leading by example.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: PuckChaser on January 22, 2017, 20:23:33
It's the CDS... I highly doubt anyone is going to correct the CDS, and to be honest I really don't care if he's wearing US Jump Wings. If it makes him feel better about being the CDS, all the power to him, I think there's bigger fish to fry in this day and age.
We have rules for a reason, the entire CAF is built on rules. If we give the CDS a pass foe this what does that say when we hammer a MCpl for doing it? As for bigger fish to fry, it takes 0 effort and a 10 second conversation to sort out someone's dress.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: daftandbarmy on January 22, 2017, 20:37:41
Anyone notice the CDS wearing US and another country's (not sure which) jumps wings yesterday at the CF appreciation nhl game in Toronto yesterday?

We should all be wearing US jump wings. It's D + 2 already and they're going to need all the 'invaders' they can get in about a month :)
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 23, 2017, 09:21:45
It's the CDS... I highly doubt anyone is going to correct the CDS, and to be honest I really don't care if he's wearing US Jump Wings. If it makes him feel better about being the CDS, all the power to him, I think there's bigger fish to fry in this day and age.

Would you care if all of your subordinates who had US jump wings suddenly started wearing them?

Leadership is from the top down, no?  From http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/toc-04.page

4.02 - GENERAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF OFFICERS

(1) An officer shall:
a.become acquainted with, observe and enforce:
i.the National Defence Act,
ii.the Security of Information Act,
iii.QR&O, and
iv.all other regulations, rules, orders and instructions that pertain to the performance of the officer's duties;

That would include CF dress regulations.  It sets the "we are GOFO/Snr Officer/Jnr Officers/CWOs/MWOs/WOs/Sgts, we can bend the rules that we are actually supposed to enforce" precedent.  If its not a big deal for our most senior ranks to do it, it should be even LESS of a deal if our OCdts, 2Lts, Cpls and Pte's do it.

But the last few years have shown us its not about leadership sometimes, its about getting the new bling.  Example, the "new" Wings for RCAF personnel that are approved but not produced in mass and distributed yet, but our senior leaders and a select few are sporting the new bling so they have their LCF goin' on while the people at the op level wait.  The Wings themselves aren't much of a big deal (the less I am in DEU and more I am in a flight suit, the happier I am...), the message of "the troops DON'T come first" is a big deal (to me). 

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.huffpost.com%2Fgen%2F4887466%2Fthumbs%2Fo-MICHAEL-HOOD-570.jpg%3F16&hash=6ab347b57b37b49a2ddd2c632fc6bf38)
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on January 23, 2017, 10:33:38
But we always knew that our very senior leadership has bling envy.

I think it started with the RCN getting it's elliot's eye back. That meant that the admirals started wearing the wide band plus stripes on their sleeves of their DEU tunics. Now, they retained the shoulder boards with maple leaves but only for uniforms without sleeve stripes. So it was one or the other for the RCN (as had always been the case in past uniforms).

But all that gold on the sleeves of DEU tunics wouldn't do with the RCAF, who just had to re-establish bling superiority. So they came up with this clever plan (as can be seen in the picture above): With the re-introduction of blue/grey "Air Force" colours stripes, they adopted the "old" RCAF practice of broad band plus stripes on the DEU sleeves, but for added bling kept the wearing of shoulder boards with maple leaves at the same time.

The poor Army was left in a lurch! Imagine, the newly re-introduced "British" style pips and crowns meant that, other than the red general's gorgets, their bling was actually very subdued. That just wouldn't do: So just for general officers, they re-introduced the old gold broad band and shoulder maple leaves, but kept the gorgets.

At least, the Army didn't go bat crazy like the RCAF, except for the CDS who decided that somehow his maple leaves should be twice as big as every one else's and made of silver. 

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 23, 2017, 10:46:42
I guess I'm weird.  I'd prefer to have a decent flashlight I didn't have to buy myself, or flying gloves that don't fall apart when I use them for...flying.  Nice driving gloves, but changing setting on a belly load and they're toast after the first 10 buoys usually.  I received some helpful new DEU slip-ons this year though!   :blotto:
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Journeyman on January 23, 2017, 10:59:54
But we always knew that our very senior leadership has bling envy.
Oh, there's still a ways to go...    :o
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstorage.thewhig.com%2Fv1%2Fdynamic_resize%2Fsws_path%2Fsuns-prod-images%2F-119406_ORIGINAL.jpg%3Fquality%3D80%26amp%3Bsize%3D650x%26amp%3Bstmp%3D1336595038331&hash=c9f865c027191e846278c62f3f66bfa5)


Quote
... except for the CDS who decided that somehow his maple leaves should be twice as big as every one else's and made of silver. 
          ???

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ctvnews.ca%2Fpolopoly_fs%2F1.2475365.1437184360%21%2FhttpImage%2Fimage.jpg_gen%2Fderivatives%2Flandscape_620%2Fimage.jpg&hash=ff82893be72907ef6c84c25bf5dd28a5)

Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 23, 2017, 11:24:19
(https://i.cbc.ca/1.3773262.1474497213!/cpImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_620/peacekeeping-canada-20160921.jpg)

(https://coloneltedcampbell.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/cds-on-ctv-01-apr-16.png?w=640)
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: LogOLife on January 23, 2017, 11:25:52
Maple leaves and new insignia at the same time? And all those jump wings....?

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FXKTusen.jpg&hash=30002471f1c411bf044641bb0ab2d093)

Edit: I just dug into the regs for ranks and apparently that changed last year (don't know how I missed it), but I guess that is how General ranks are now...

Also - looks like the third set of wings are German.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 23, 2017, 11:43:32
Edit: I just dug into the regs for ranks and apparently that changed last year (don't know how I missed it), but I guess that is how General ranks are now...

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1045579

and the Forage Cap *stuff*...

http://www.army-armee.forces.gc.ca/en/news-publications/national-news-details-no-menu.page?doc=maple-leaf-is-back-in-new-army-dress/iv9j06gw

Forage caps – with their distinctive stiff brims – were replaced by the beret in the CA decades ago. CWO Guimond said their re-introduction is a nod to CA heritage that will also bring the CA more in line with many of its allies.

“The forage cap suggests authority, seniority,” he said. “It means a lot. And when we look at many other countries, the general officers are wearing their forage caps with their element uniforms.”
-------------------------------------------------
I guess the Army Sgt-Maj doesn't remember getting issued his forage cap on Thursday of Week 1 in Cornwallis like I did.  I had no idea I had authority and seniority vested in me that day in Supply!

Fact is, the all 3 elements are guilty of the bling-BS the past few years; Army, Navy AND Air Force.  Caps, curls and Aircrew Wings are high priority issues in the CAF today.   :nod:

Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Journeyman on January 23, 2017, 11:44:46
[CDS pics]
Seen.  Obviously, I've been looking at old pictures.

Thanks
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: LogOLife on January 23, 2017, 11:48:54
I'm still confused by the wings as this is what is stated in the Dress Regs:

FOREIGN FLYING AND SPECIALIST SKILL BADGES
12. Personnel who have been presented foreign Flying and Specialist Skill badges
from allied countries as a result of qualifications obtained on a course prescribed
by the CAF, shall wear the applicable CAF badge in accordance with wear
instructions above.

13. Where an equivalent CAF badge has not been designed or approved for wear,
the foreign badge presented for the prescribed qualification shall be worn like a
CAF badge in accordance with wear instructions above. If wearing both a CAF
badge and a foreign badge, the CAF badge shall take precedence.

14. The following prescribed foreign qualification badges are authorized for wear on
the CAF uniform:

a. United States Army Ranger Badge (a cloth sleeve badge);
b. United States Army Special Forces Badge (a cloth sleeve badge);
c. United States Sapper Badge (a cloth sleeve badge);
d. United States Army Ranger Badge (metal pocket badge);
e. United States Army Special Forces Badge (metal pocket badge);
f. United States Air Assault Badge (a metal pocket badge);
g. Colombian Lancero Badge (a metal pocket badge); and
h. Brazilian Jungle Warfare Badge (a metal pocket badge).

15. Personnel who have been presented equivalent badges of allied countries as a
result of qualifications obtained on a course prescribed by the CAF, and those
who have been presented honorary qualification badges while attached to, or
serving with the armed forces of an allied country, may wear the appropriate
metal or cloth badge, on the right breast of the service dress and mess dress
jacket only while on duty in the specific allied country, when subsequently
working with the armed forces of the country or when attending a formal function
sponsored by the country concerned
.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 23, 2017, 11:57:39
Seen.  Obviously, I've been looking at old pictures.

Thanks

IMO, even the 'new' rank the CDS has on now isn't really that different from that of previous CDS's...

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-org-structure/former-cds.page
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: NFLD Sapper on January 23, 2017, 12:00:36
I guess I'm weird.  I'd prefer to have a decent flashlight I didn't have to buy myself, or flying gloves that don't fall apart when I use them for...flying.  Nice driving gloves, but changing setting on a belly load and they're toast after the first 10 buoys usually.  I received some helpful new DEU slip-ons this year though!   :blotto:

Is it too much to ask to get kit that doesn't fall apart especially in an office setting i.e. the new temperate combat sneakers boots...
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 23, 2017, 12:04:43
Is it too much to ask to get kit that doesn't fall apart especially in an office setting i.e. the new temperate combat sneakers boots...

Yes?   >:D
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Dimsum on January 23, 2017, 12:10:38
I'm still confused by the wings as this is what is stated in the Dress Regs:

FOREIGN FLYING AND SPECIALIST SKILL BADGES
15. Personnel who have been presented equivalent badges of allied countries as a
result of qualifications obtained on a course prescribed by the CAF, and those
who have been presented honorary qualification badges while attached to, or
serving with the armed forces of an allied country, may wear the appropriate
metal or cloth badge, on the right breast of the service dress and mess dress
jacket only while on duty in the specific allied country, when subsequently
working with the armed forces of the country or when attending a formal function
sponsored by the country concerned
.


Basically, if that picture was taken in Germany, he would be authorized to wear German jump wings. 
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: LogOLife on January 23, 2017, 12:31:25
Basically, if that picture was taken in Germany, he would be authorized to wear German jump wings.

Right. It was taken last week at the NATO Chiefs meeting in Brussels. There are pictures of CDS wearing same insignia this weekend in Toronto too.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Eaglelord17 on January 23, 2017, 12:44:14
http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1045579

and the Forage Cap *stuff*...

http://www.army-armee.forces.gc.ca/en/news-publications/national-news-details-no-menu.page?doc=maple-leaf-is-back-in-new-army-dress/iv9j06gw

Forage caps – with their distinctive stiff brims – were replaced by the beret in the CA decades ago. CWO Guimond said their re-introduction is a nod to CA heritage that will also bring the CA more in line with many of its allies.

“The forage cap suggests authority, seniority,” he said. “It means a lot. And when we look at many other countries, the general officers are wearing their forage caps with their element uniforms.”
-------------------------------------------------
I guess the Army Sgt-Maj doesn't remember getting issued his forage cap on Thursday of Week 1 in Cornwallis like I did.  I had no idea I had authority and seniority vested in me that day in Supply!

The forage cap suggesting authority is one of the few points I actually agree with. I was on parade a year ago as the Navy guy in a Army unit with the forage cap. The civilians organizing the parade would come up to me to ask what was going on instead of going to the officers as they thought I was in charge. The point being that is how civilians in particular view it, and it is one of the few visible changes civilians will notice (as change in ranks and such tend to get ignored as they don't know what the difference in ranks were to begin with).
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Rifleman62 on January 23, 2017, 13:01:41
With all the bling and a forge cap don't stand near the entrance of a ritzy hotel.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 23, 2017, 13:16:08
The forage cap suggesting authority is one of the few points I actually agree with. I was on parade a year ago as the Navy guy in a Army unit with the forage cap. The civilians organizing the parade would come up to me to ask what was going on instead of going to the officers as they thought I was in charge. The point being that is how civilians in particular view it, and it is one of the few visible changes civilians will notice (as change in ranks and such tend to get ignored as they don't know what the difference in ranks were to begin with).

I don't think we should be deciding dress regulations off the perceptions of civilians though.  But, hey, as long as I can keep my head wallet for parades and stuff, I'm cool with the whole forage cap deal.   :nod:
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Eaglelord17 on January 23, 2017, 14:23:54
I don't think we should be deciding dress regulations off the perceptions of civilians though.  But, hey, as long as I can keep my head wallet for parades and stuff, I'm cool with the whole forage cap deal.   :nod:

Not saying we should either, but to them it does suggest authority, which makes sense as you look at most militaries most (pretty much all?) use forage caps for there higher ranks. Personally I just want the kit required to do what I need to do, which currently we lack. It almost makes you wish they could ban dress uniforms until we have the actual equipment required to do our jobs, i.e. blow things up, kill people, and the stuff needed to support the equipment and people doing those two actions.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: daftandbarmy on January 23, 2017, 14:38:48
Not saying we should either, but to them it does suggest authority, which makes sense as you look at most militaries most (pretty much all?) use forage caps for there higher ranks. Personally I just want the kit required to do what I need to do, which currently we lack. It almost makes you wish they could ban dress uniforms until we have the actual equipment required to do our jobs, i.e. blow things up, kill people, and the stuff needed to support the equipment and people doing those two actions.

I trust that by 'kill people' you mean 'the enemy'?

One never knows these days, especially if one is flying a Sea King or something like that :)
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: LunchMeat on January 23, 2017, 14:58:10
Would you care if all of your subordinates who had US jump wings suddenly started wearing them?

Leadership is from the top down, no?  From http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/toc-04.page

4.02 - GENERAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF OFFICERS

(1) An officer shall:
a.become acquainted with, observe and enforce:
i.the National Defence Act,
ii.the Security of Information Act,
iii.QR&O, and
iv.all other regulations, rules, orders and instructions that pertain to the performance of the officer's duties;

That would include CF dress regulations.  It sets the "we are GOFO/Snr Officer/Jnr Officers/CWOs/MWOs/WOs/Sgts, we can bend the rules that we are actually supposed to enforce" precedent.  If its not a big deal for our most senior ranks to do it, it should be even LESS of a deal if our OCdts, 2Lts, Cpls and Pte's do it.

But the last few years have shown us its not about leadership sometimes, its about getting the new bling.  Example, the "new" Wings for RCAF personnel that are approved but not produced in mass and distributed yet, but our senior leaders and a select few are sporting the new bling so they have their LCF goin' on while the people at the op level wait.  The Wings themselves aren't much of a big deal (the less I am in DEU and more I am in a flight suit, the happier I am...), the message of "the troops DON'T come first" is a big deal (to me). 

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.huffpost.com%2Fgen%2F4887466%2Fthumbs%2Fo-MICHAEL-HOOD-570.jpg%3F16&hash=6ab347b57b37b49a2ddd2c632fc6bf38)

I'm well aware of the regulations, I just think that at this stage of Vance's career he's more a politician than anything else and only has a few years left in service I'm sure.

With the dismal state the CAF is in, I don't think this is the big ticket issue we should be focused on. I know for a lot of you old school mbrs it'll be hard to see that point of view.

Also, it's not like the CAF is out any money by having JV prance around in US Jump Wings, so while I get the budget discussion, it's irrelevant.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: AmmoTech90 on January 23, 2017, 15:09:20
I'm well aware of the regulations, I just think that at this stage of Vance's career he's more a politician than anything else and only has a few years left in service I'm sure.

So Mr. MP, how much time left before CRA does a CAF member have to have before the regulations no longer apply to them?

And that attitude is why MPs should look after traffic route marking and POWs.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: LunchMeat on January 23, 2017, 15:11:02
So Mr. MP, how much time left before CRA does a CAF member have to have before the regulations no longer apply to them?

And that attitude is why MPs should look after traffic route marking and POWs.

Apples to Oranges, you're comparing a 25¢ pin on a suit jacket to CSD Offences.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: PuckChaser on January 23, 2017, 15:15:57
Apples to Oranges, you're comparing a 25¢ pin on a suit jacket to CSD Offences.
But by wearing that pin, the member could be committing an offense. You can't just piss off rules because that person might pull pin or is too high of a rank.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: LunchMeat on January 23, 2017, 15:35:50
Edit: Disregard, I'm having a rough day and this wasn't necessary.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: daftandbarmy on January 24, 2017, 00:44:33
But by wearing that pin, the member could be committing an offense. You can't just piss off rules because that person might pull pin or is too high of a rank.

OK, I have to come clean now.

I never, ever wore the 1812 pin. Wasn't even issued it but I know that's no excuse.

Wait, there's someone hammering on my door....  ???
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: Dimsum on January 24, 2017, 01:09:22
OK, I have to come clean now.

I never, ever wore the 1812 pin. Wasn't even issued it but I know that's no excuse.

Wait, there's someone hammering on my door....  ???

Me neither.  It must have been lost in transit for 3+ years in the Pacific.  Someone in Australia probably has it now.
Title: Re: Wearing Of Foreign Wings On CF's
Post by: my72jeep on January 24, 2017, 10:52:32
Me neither.  It must have been lost in transit for 3+ years in the Pacific.  Someone in Australia probably has it now.
War of 1812 pin hell l'm still waiting for my year of the veteran pin to be issued.