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Milnet.ca => Communications & Electronics => Topic started by: FieldRat on January 12, 2005, 09:11:47

Title: SIGINT
Post by: FieldRat on January 12, 2005, 09:11:47


Have seen some reference to this trade (SIGINT) in the CANFORGEN.  Wondering if anyone has some information regarding this trade?  interested for reason's of possible remuster and want as much info as possible.

Thanks for any info you might have.

FR
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: chaos75 on January 12, 2005, 11:34:18
SIGINT is not a trade, it is a form of information collection that can be turned into intelligence.   Applicable trades are Intelligence, Sigs, and Comms Research.   For more info on what they do, check out the recruiting page. :cdn:
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: Ex-fusilier on January 18, 2005, 18:39:31
SIGINT is not a trade, Comm Rsch (291) is the only trade that deals with SIGINT.  It is our niche, int ops do not deal with SIGINT except for reading our reports.  Fieldrat, what CANFORGEN are you referring to?  I have never, nor do I expect to, see a CANFORGEN regarding SIGINT.  Maybe you're confused with HUMINT, I have seen CANFORGENs relating to the HUMINT crse.  SIGINT tends to be highly classified....
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: aesop081 on January 18, 2005, 18:47:21
.... SIGINT tends to be highly classified....

...and if its like ELINT in my trade.....when continuing this thread , remember OPSEC !!
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: Hoplite on January 18, 2005, 19:39:09
This is the NSA's defintion of SIGINT:

Signals Intelligence is technical and intelligence information derived from the exploitation of foreign electronic emissions which is comprised either individually or in combination of communications intelligence (COMINT), electronic intelligence (ELINT), and foreign instrumentation signals intelligence (FISINT).

291er is right.  Comm Rsch is a trade to consider if SIGINT is something that you are interested in. 
 
Fieldrat, feel free to message me if you have any questions about Comm Rsch (291).  I will tell you what I can.

Cheers



Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: Ex-fusilier on January 18, 2005, 21:18:00
Same goes for me field, feel free to gimme a shout.
WRT OPSEC, aesop, I was'nt planning to go into the particulars of SIGINT, I was simply stating that it tends to be classified, that's why I would be surprised to see a CANFORGEN on it.  I just checked the CANFORGEN's for the past two years, there is none regarding SIGINT, I think our friend has it confused with HUMINT.
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: aesop081 on January 18, 2005, 21:19:56
Same goes for me field, feel free to gimme a shout.
WRT OPSEC, aesop, I was'nt planning to go into the particulars of SIGINT, I was simply stating that it tends to be classified, that's why I would be surprised to see a CANFORGEN on it.   I just checked the CANFORGEN's for the past two years, there is none regarding SIGINT, I think our friend has it confused with HUMINT.

Yeah, i think HUMIT was what he was thinking of.  I didn't think for a second that OPSEC would be violtaed but just saying what i said sometimes eliminates questions that we just can't answer.

Cheers
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: Ex-fusilier on January 18, 2005, 22:08:10
seen...this is true, this is true, too many questions = no fun
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: FieldRat on January 21, 2005, 17:14:26
Thanks for the info guys,

The mention of (SIGINT) I was talking about in the CANFORGEN though was just the name in the HUMINT posting.

Cheers,

FR
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: Radop on January 30, 2005, 20:01:49
Same goes for me field, feel free to gimme a shout.
WRT OPSEC, aesop, I was'nt planning to go into the particulars of SIGINT, I was simply stating that it tends to be classified, that's why I would be surprised to see a CANFORGEN on it.   I just checked the CANFORGEN's for the past two years, there is none regarding SIGINT, I think our friend has it confused with HUMINT.
Yes but if you want a real signals trade contact me.  Just kidding 291er.  I don't know what I would do without you guys not jamming, spoofing or generally screwing us over. lol guys
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: Ex-fusilier on January 30, 2005, 20:47:12
what's that?  Sorry Radop can't hear you over all that money I'm making with my spec pay :P
sorry for the burn, its really the only thing we can hold over you, and you're right, we're not a true signals trade per se, more closely affiliated with Int.  In the States most of our trade equivalents are in the Int community I believe.
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: HFXCrow on January 31, 2005, 22:32:43
"Comm Rsch (291) is the only trade that deals with SIGINT"

you must be new at this game 291er!!!! (wait)

I just checked your profile and I was right, 5 years in, no medals, no operational experience. Just a trip to the Coffee Shop at 101 and maybe a bus trip back to Uplands.

Do some research first, learn about different agencies working within the NCR and the Coasts.Call your own school and find out what courses they running and some of the different trades that attending these specialty courses. You will be amazed!!!

Lets call it some professional development training.

Typical........
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: aesop081 on January 31, 2005, 23:01:27
"Comm Rsch (291) is the only trade that deals with SIGINT"

you must be new at this game 291er!!!! (wait)

I just checked your profile and I was right, 5 years in, no medals, no operational experience. Just a trip to the Coffee Shop at 101 and maybe a bus trip back to Uplands.

Do some research first, learn about different agencies working within the NCR and the Coasts.Call your own school and find out what courses they running and some of the different trades that attending these specialty courses. You will be amazed!!!

Lets call it some professional development training.

Typical........

Maybe you could elighten the rest of us......
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: Ex-fusilier on January 31, 2005, 23:12:30
I will rephase that.....291 is the main trade that deals with SIGINT.....other trades may deal with it, but it is our bread and butter.  Definitely other trades deal with it, it is a form of intelligence.....
As for your attack on me and my career experience, completely unwarranted.  I did not say that I was the SIGINT know-it-all, just trying to share what I do know.  Who are you to say that I have no operational experience when in fact, your profile says nothing at all WRT to any of your experience??  As far as the different agencies working within the NCR and coasts....that was'nt the topic of this discussion...if you had bothered to read the rest of it, you would know that.....I know very well what the other agencies are and what they do.  I worked in an environment for the past year in which I provided just that sort of information with the higher echelon and decision makers at DND, including the CDS.....I don't need to do any research of the sort
Here's some professional development for you, think before you speak and work on your people skills
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: HFXCrow on January 31, 2005, 23:28:50
Thanks for the career advice!
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: aesop081 on January 31, 2005, 23:30:40
Gents...keep it civil......
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: Ex-Dragoon on January 31, 2005, 23:42:29
"Comm Rsch (291) is the only trade that deals with SIGINT"

you must be new at this game 291er!!!! (wait)

I just checked your profile and I was right, 5 years in, no medals, no operational experience. Just a trip to the Coffee Shop at 101 and maybe a bus trip back to Uplands.

Do some research first, learn about different agencies working within the NCR and the Coasts.Call your own school and find out what courses they running and some of the different trades that attending these specialty courses. You will be amazed!!!

Lets call it some professional development training.

Typical........

Nice to be able to hide behind a blank profile isn't it. I can see you will be lasting here.
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: aesop081 on January 31, 2005, 23:49:08
Thats never happened on this site before !!!
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: brin11 on February 01, 2005, 11:23:38
NCRCrow,

Personal attacks will not be tolerated on these boards.  You could have gotten your point across without making it personal like you did.  Watch your step.
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: HFXCrow on February 01, 2005, 18:35:24
brin11, 291er:
Wilco,will practice better EMCON! Apologies to 291er and the Forum.

Crow Out
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: Ex-fusilier on February 01, 2005, 22:52:48
rgr that crow.....no worries mate....water off a ducks back.....cheers
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: Radop on February 03, 2005, 23:25:08
what's that?   Sorry Radop can't hear you over all that money I'm making with my spec pay :P
sorry for the burn, its really the only thing we can hold over you, and you're right, we're not a true signals trade per se, more closely affiliated with Int.   In the States most of our trade equivalents are in the Int community I believe.
I wouldn't say that your not part of the sigs trade and int is now looking to become part of the sigs branch.  I think that we all have a job to do and can do it together.  Did you ever know Gus Dubois?  I worked for him in Rwanda.  When I talked about radios, he laughed and would say things like did we jam that on you ... ooops.  He was fun to be with and I have a few friends that are 291ers.
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: Ex-fusilier on February 04, 2005, 00:55:07
agree with you on that much.....we're all one big happy family....gus is out now I think....I have a few sig op friends as well, we all suffer together in B Sqn at CFSCE now hehehe
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: Radop on February 04, 2005, 17:47:16
agree with you on that much.....we're all one big happy family....gus is out now I think....I have a few sig op friends as well, we all suffer together in B Sqn at CFSCE now hehehe

Yeah Gus is out now.  Raberta Bilingsley (sp) was in Rwanda and Afghanistan with me as well.  She told me he retired about 2 yrs ago.  At least in your trade, klingon is a recognized language, just ask Cpl Campbell.
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: Bender842 on January 29, 2006, 23:42:03
signals intelligence (SIGINT): 1. A category of intelligence comprising, either individually or in combination, all communications intelligence, electronics intelligence, and foreign instrumentation signals intelligence, however transmitted. [JP 1-02] 2. Intelligence derived from communications, electronics, and foreign instrumentation signals. [JP 1-02]

SIGINT
SIGINT is actually a broad discipline under which multiple sub-disciplines fall. There are three major sub-disciplines that fall under SIGINT which are COMmunications INTelligence (COMINT), ELectronic INTelligence (ELINT), and Foreign Instrumentation Signals INTelligence (FISINT). It should be noted that COMINT is commonly referred to as SIGINT, which can cause confusion when talking about the broader intelligence disciplines.

SIGINT became far more central to military (and to some extent diplomatic) intelligence generally with the mechanization of armies, development of blitzkrieg tactics, use of submarine and commerce raiders warfare, and the development of practicable radio communications. For example, failure to properly protect its communications fatally compromised the Russian Army in its advance early in WWI and led to their disastrous defeat by the Germans under Ludendorff and Hindenburg at the Battle of Tannenberg. Similarly, the interception and decryption of the Zimmerman telegram was an important factor in the US decision to enter the War.

On the negative side, the inability of British commanders to take seriously traffic analysis information from intercepts was instrumental in the failure to achieve more than they did at the Battle of Jutland, thus losing what might have been a major opportunity.

The use of SIGINT had important implications during WWII as well. Early on, Admiralty dismissal of SIGINT information (also traffic analysis in this instance) contributed to the loss of HMS Glorious in 1940. The Allied ability to intercept and decrypt the German Enigma "E Traffic" and Japanese Purple (Magic) traffic proved to be a great military advantage. The combined effort of intercepts and cryptanalysis for the whole of the British forces in WWII came under the code name (Ultra) controlled from Station X (Bletchley Park). Perhaps most dramatically, intercepts of Japanese naval communications yielded information that gave Admiral Nimitz the upper hand in the ambush that resulted in the Japanese Navy's defeat at the Battle of Midway, six months after the Pearl Harbor disaster.

As sensitive information is often encrypted, SIGINT often involves the use of cryptanalysis. However, traffic analysis--the study of who is signalling who and in what quantity--can often produce valuable information, even when the messages themselves cannot be decrypted.

Intelligence derived from any of the SIGINT disciplines are very sensitive due to the ability to determine the source of the information. By determining the source of the intelligence information, the enemy can deny access or even send deceptive information to confuse and otherwise reduce the trustworthiness of the information.

The UKUSA Community is an alliance of English-speaking nations led by the United States and United Kingdom for the purpose of gathering intelligence via signals intelligence.

The UKUSA constituent agencies are:

Australia - Defence Signals Directorate (DSD)
Canada - Communications Security Establishment (CSE)
New Zealand - Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB)
United Kingdom - Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ)
United States - National Security Agency (NSA)
One role of the UKUSA Community is to service the ECHELON system. (now dont take the echelon concept too seriously)


http://www.tscm.com/cseukusa.html (great reading about the ukusa community)

If you have any questions regarding sigint and how canada is involved and it's different departments entities and such, just ask, I did some extensive research and studies in that deparment, also I did my QL3 as a comm rsch (bailed out a few weeks before grad) with ex-fusiller.




Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: Bender842 on January 29, 2006, 23:48:24
oh crap almost forgot here's a very comprehensive link about the sigint, ukusa and such, it gives you a broad idea of that world.

also the NSA currently has 80 000 employees around the world and is considered as one of the best source of intelligence and also as on the most inefective one, depends on who you ask. Some will only rely on HUMINT.

Good book on the matter: http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/1400060346/qid=1138592869/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1_1/702-3838364-1202413

Chatter: Dispatches from the Secret World of Global Eavesdropping
by Patrick Radden Keefe (Author)
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: Ex-fusilier on January 31, 2006, 18:16:03
Some good open source on SIGINT.  That's about as far as we can go with that though!  We're not called secret squirrels for no reason
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: Bender842 on January 31, 2006, 20:07:49
blahh it's easy to figure out most of the stuff and capability, and well also real expectation. cause even if theoricly any radio wave or communication can be picked up, you still have to localize the one you want, scrap all the unwanted bullshit, then translate whatever you picked up, figure out if they speak in some sort of weird dialect and them what is the lingo or expression they use to designate particular concepts.

So all in all given the amount of communication going these days the usefulness of the sigint community is very debatable.
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: Ex-fusilier on January 31, 2006, 21:09:50
I have to disagree on that point old friend.  I will say that it's a fact that the SIGINT community is a vital part of the Intelligence community.  It's usefulness is very debated by the public, and mainly by people who don't have access to their product/information.   
As far as the productivity or usefulness of SIGINT, I'm not going to get into that for two reasons: 1) I'm hardly qualifed to do such, and 2) It's not really something that anyone that has anything to do with it is willing to talk about....for obvious reasons.

There are a lot of good books out there on this stuff, but remember, authors want to sell books!  The truth is often a lot less exciting or sensational.
Title: Re: SIGINT
Post by: George Wallace on January 31, 2006, 21:31:52
As we are all speculative in this topic, and facts can not be published, I am locking this thread before we cross the OPSEC Line.