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The Mess => Canadian Politics => Topic started by: Hatchet Man on March 04, 2004, 08:10:00

Title: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on March 04, 2004, 08:10:00
Read this in the Toronto Sun, it is a story from the Canadian Press, maybe it's time we start looking a little more closely at the background of people coming here.

 http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2004/03/04/369489.html

'We are al-Qaida family'


By CP


A Canadian family that has long denied ties to al-Qaida now admits that they are not only terrorists but believe it's noble for them to die for the cause. Abdurahman Khadr told CBC-TV's The National last night that his two brothers and father fought as al-Qaida terrorists and the family even lived at Osama bin Laden's camp.

"We are an al-Qaida family."

His mother and sister, interviewed in Pakistan, said they were proud of their family's connection to bin Laden.

Abdurahman Khadr, who was released from the U.S. jail and returned to Toronto last year, said he was "raised to become an al-Qaida, was raised to become a suicide bomber, was raised to become a bad person ... I decided on my own that I do not want to be that.

"I want to be a good, strong, civilized, peaceful Muslim."

Khadr said when the family was staying at the bin Laden camp, his father tried three times to persuade him to become a suicide bomber, telling him the sacrifice would make him the pride of the family.

In Pakistan, his mother said she'd be happy if her children died the same way as her husband -- a martyr.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Devlin on March 04, 2004, 08:24:00
Quote
Khadr said when the family was staying at the bin Laden camp, his father tried three times to persuade him to become a suicide bomber, telling him the sacrifice would make him the pride of the family.

In Pakistan, his mother said she‘d be happy if her children died the same way as her husband -- a martyr.
Ah yes welcome to Canada sir, have you heard about our social assistance programs and low income housing. Come right in we‘ll get you all setup to live with the infidels.

This really burns my *** especially when I get apporached by some of my troops (reserve) who are barely scrapping by and are looking for extra days work here and there.

The_Falcon is bang on when he says we should be looking more closely at people who come to our country. I‘m all for diversity in a country‘s population, but our immigration rules are just a little too slack for my liking.

My $0.02
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: absent_element on March 04, 2004, 08:37:00
Yea definitly a little too liberal with immigration.

I didn‘t actually see the National last night, but I did catch parts of it. Needless to say that I was quite disgusted. Didn‘t the women say they were happy about the attacks on 9.11? And appearently they were sad about the deaths of civilians but they paid taxes so therefore it was ok.

Some people really got their head up their ***.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jungle on March 04, 2004, 09:22:00
The first thing to do is arrest them all for being members of a terrorist org. If we don‘t have the balls to deal with them, forfeit their CDN citizenship and turn them over to the US authorities... They‘ll deal with them.
F&$K THEM !!!   :mad:    :mad:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Gunnar on March 04, 2004, 09:39:00
Well, from what I‘ve heard we have some of the best immigration laws in the world.  It‘s tough to come to Canada to become a landed immigrant or citizen.

Unfortunately, our immigration policy is entirely short-circuited by the refugee status claims, which bypass any of the checks and balances we have in place.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Marauder on March 04, 2004, 09:46:00
To **** with arresting these phucks. They‘ve all but admitted to rendering aid and comfort to the enemy in a time of war. If the Liberals had any balls these b@stards would have been sent to their 72 virgins on a cold Toronto night after a no knock entry courtesy of the Dwyer Hill ski team.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on March 04, 2004, 10:14:00
Marauder couldn‘t agree more, you had me laughing my @$$ off! Dywer Hill ski team! I like that. Maj Baker you aren‘t knocking us, everyone here is well aware that our Refugee system is joke and that we are an easy target.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hulk on March 04, 2004, 10:23:00
Marauder, to that post, I   :salute:   you!

J. Lightfoot
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on March 04, 2004, 10:29:00
Here is the transcript from The National that aired last night.

 http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/khadr/index.html

Al-Qaeda Family: The firefight at Waziristan
CBC News Online | March 3, 2004

Reporter: Terence McKenna
Producers: Nazim Baksh, Michelle Gagnon, Alex Shprintsen


Osama bin Laden  
After Sept. 11, 2001 Osama bin Laden and other senior figures in al-Qaeda left the city of Jalalabad, Afghanistan and fled south to the tribal areas that straddle the Pakistani-Afghan border.

For years these areas have been self-governing and self-policing, and the tribal leaders here were happy to give sanctuary to al-Qaeda members and their families in exchange for cash.

There have been sporadic military offensives to look for them ever since.

One such offensive by the Pakistani army took place on Oct. 2, 2003. Senior al-Qaeda figures were reported to be holed up in a house in the province of Waziristan on the Pakistani side of the border. The Pakistan army surrounded the house and demanded a surrender. An intense firefight broke out and two Pakistani soldiers were killed.

The battle raged on for hours.


 
Finally a Pakistani Cobra attack helicopter shelled the house.

After the attack, 18 prisoners were taken. Eight bodies were pulled from the rubble. The Pakistanis were disappointed they had not found Osama bin Laden. But they did find the body of another man long identified as a senior leader of al-Qaeda - a 57-year-old Canadian citizen named Ahmed Said Khadr who was born in Egypt.


Ahmed Said Khadr  
In late February 2004, in the Pakistani capital of Islamabad, Ahmed Said Khadr‘s wife, Maha, and 23-year old daughter, Zaynab, agreed to sit down for their first television interview since his death.

They have always claimed that Ahmed Said Khadr was not a terrorist. But now they say that he was proud to die as a shaheed, a martyr, a soldier of Islam.

"We believe that death comes when God had planned it, before He created the humanity, it‘s planned, so I just accept, [but] it hurt," Maha said.

"We believe dying by the hand of your enemy because you believe in... you‘re doing it in the way of Allah, that it‘s the best way to die," Zaynab told CBC. "My father had always wished that he would be killed... he would be killed for the sake of Allah. I remember when we were very young he would say, if you guys love me, pray for me that I get jihaded, which is killed."


Ahmed Said Khadr‘s wife, Maha, and 23-year old daughter, Zaynab  
At the Pakistani defence ministry in nearby Rawalpindi, Maj.-Gen. Shaukat Sultan has no doubt about the true identity of Ahmed Said Khadr.

"So he was certainly a terrorist... because... he did not surrender voluntarily on the offer that was made earlier before the operation went in," Sultan said.

"This man did not surrender. That was one. Number two, the firefight started and the firefight lasted almost for 12 hours. And those people who were killed they were certainly those who were fighting thoroughly with the army troops."

Ahmed Said Khadr‘s 14-year-old son, Karim, lies in the military hospital in Rawalpindi, shot in the spine in the same battle that killed his father. He is paralysed from the waist down.

Maha would be happy if her children died the same way. "You know we are promised that we go to heaven," she says.

Zaynab says, "I‘d love to die like that. I‘d love my daughter to die... even if [it is] simple, very simple, naïve," Maha says.

"Yeah it‘s heaven. It‘s heaven, you know," Zaynab says.

Ahmed Said Khadr‘s 22-year-old son, Abdullah, escaped the fighting that day because he was away from the house running an errand.


Abdullah Khadr  
He agreed to an interview only if we concealed his face, because he is still considered a wanted al-Qaeda fugitive in Pakistan. He says his father talked about becoming a martyr.

"Dying for Islam is... hopeful for every Muslim," Abdullah says. "Everybody loves to die for his religion," he says. "Every Muslim dreams of being a shaheed for Islam... like you die for your religion. Everybody dreams of this, even a Christian would like to die for their religion."

Two years ago, in Afghanistan, another of Ahmed Said Khadr‘s sons, Omar, now 17, was shot three times in a firefight with American troops.

Omar lost the sight of one eye. He is now in the infamous U.S. military prison at Guantanamo, Cuba, accused of killing an American soldier with a grenade.


Omar Khadr  
Maha is proud of Omar. "Of course. He defended himself," she says. "He just did not give any - you know, I thought they were very simple kids."

"If you were in that situation what would you have done? I must ask everybody that," Zaynab says.

"I hope you don‘t say, ‘I would bow down.‘ No, no, no," Maha says. "Wouldn‘t you like your Canadian son to be so brave to stand up and fight for his right?"

"He‘d been bombarded for hours. Three of his friends who were with him had been killed. He was the only sole survivor," Zaynab says. "What do you expect him to do, come up with his hands in the air? I mean it‘s a war. They‘re shooting at him. Why can‘t he shoot at you? If you killed three, why can‘t he kill one? Why is it, why does nobody say you killed three of his friends? Why does everybody say you killed an American soldier? Big deal."
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Gunnar on March 04, 2004, 11:47:00
Quote
"If you were in that situation what would you have done? I must ask everybody that," Zaynab says.

"I hope you don‘t say, ‘I would bow down.‘ No, no, no," Maha says. "Wouldn‘t you like your Canadian son to be so brave to stand up and fight for his right?"
So, the "right" to blow up women and children is somehow no different than the right to live a peaceful, free and unmolested life.  Only problem is, "your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins".  But that‘s a philosophical point they wouldn‘t be able to grasp yet.  

If my son were to stand up and fight for his "right" to be a terrorist thug, I‘d be glad to paint him with the laser sight myself.

Terrorism is nothing more than the political expression of a misbehaved child.  When a child doesn‘t get his own way, he throws a tantrum and screams and cries until he gets what he wants.  If he repeatedly doesn‘t get what he wants, but in fact gets more discipline, he eventually learns that tantrums don‘t work.  The problem with suicide bombers is that they aren‘t around to see the complete indifference to their tantrum--sure, we‘re annoyed, but all we do is crack down on the remaining people with even more discipline.  If throwing bomb-tantrums worked, Israel would have given up, and given the Palestinians what they wanted...instead, they‘re locking the Palestinians in their room (the wall) since they don‘t know how to behave amongst civilized nations.  And they‘ll stay there until Israel decides they‘re ready to come out, with no supper either!

War is different, because the purpose of a war is to reject occupation, infringement of your rights & etc. by attacking the apparatus by which you are being attacked.  It‘s purpose is to stop the enemy from attacking and/or exploiting you.  It isn‘t tit-for-tat retaliation or punishment of the innocent (read bullying) because you lost.  If you feel somebody is bullying you, you stand up to him, or call in a higher authority.  You don‘t wait until he‘s not looking and let all the air out of his tires or steal his bike.  It doesn‘t help, and it doesn‘t send any sort of message!

And while we‘re on the topic, we‘re not oppressing them or infringing their rights.  What has occurred is that our way of life is SUPERIOR to the one they espouse (we don‘t worship death, we try to live), and they are losing their unique cultural identity to money and capitalism.  Since they can‘t compete on this level (unless they adopt our principles, which they don‘t want to do), they blow stuff up.  Well guys, the pen and the dollar, are mightier that the sword.  So you are losing, and will continue to lose.  Don‘t you get tired of losing all the time?

These people worship Death, not Allah.  They want nothing more than to die.  It‘s easy to die for religion, it is much harder to live for one.  Or, to quote Mohammed, the "real jihad is on the inside".  Those of us who want to live will outlive these little people and their little tantrums, and their "brave" acts of murder against women and children.  And the terrorist so-called muslims will be little more than a footnote in history, remembered sadly by the People of the Book who actually follow their books, and the "surrendered" of Allah.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Infanteer on March 04, 2004, 11:56:00
I think a para course without a chute over the cave of their choice would be a good way to deal with the entire family.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: PikaChe on March 04, 2004, 12:06:00
Isn‘t this the schmucks that claimed that they were in A-stan as ‘aid workers‘?

Marauder, my man, you have way with words.  :D
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: pte anthony on March 04, 2004, 12:12:00
So what actions are to be taken about this confession the goverment better sprout a set of nuts and ****in prosecute these ****s. This **** makes me sick man **** those dirty *******s need their life revoked   :soldier:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on March 04, 2004, 12:20:00
Dunno, the link I provided in the second article brings your to a main page dealing with this family. If you go to the page on the right hand side the CBC has listed the links to all the articles they have on these nitwits.


Dwyer Hill Ski Team. Still laughing my butt off with that one.   :D
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: absent_element on March 05, 2004, 08:50:00
The second part of the interview was on the National last night. Did anybody catch that?


One of the things that boils me most about this situation is after stating how pleased they were about her husband/father fighting and dying in Afghanistan she went onto say that she hopes to return to Canada so her injured son can get the best possible health care.

OMFG....please tell me those people are not going to be allowed to return to this country...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on March 05, 2004, 09:00:00
WHAT!!!! GRRRR!!!!!  :mad:    :mg:    :fifty:    :akimbo:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on March 05, 2004, 09:09:00
There are more transcripts on the CBC site about this family, but this is the one from last night were the mother hopes to come back here.  Its at the end. Well you know what b****, f*** you! your proud you hubby died a matyr as an enemy of Canada and her allies, then you stay over on that side of the world and rot!!

Al-Qaeda Family: Coming home
CBC News Online | March 4, 2004


Abdurahman‘s grandmother  
Abdurahman called his grandmother in Toronto and told her that he desperately wanted to come back to Canada. He told her to announce in the Canadian media that the Canadian government was not helping him.

After the news about him broke in Canada, Abdurahman says he was brought to a CIA safe house in Sarajevo. He says the Americans agreed to let him go back to Canada, and he promised he would not tell anyone of the CIA relationship with him.

He says the CIA took away all the things they had bought him and dropped him off at the Canadian embassy.

When he arrived back in Canada he was met by his grandmother and her lawyer, Rocco Galati.


 
Days later he held a news conference and told lies about what happened after his release from Guantanamo. He stuck to the story he says was dictated to him by the CIA.

"You know, it is convenient but in the end it‘s only just about the truth. I‘m not saying this story for the people that are going to think it‘s convenient or for the people that think it‘s not convenient. I want everybody to know what happened."

Abdurahman had mentioned that he was twice subjected to polygraphs, lie detector tests by the CIA.


Lie detector test  
We asked him if he would submit to another series of polygraph tests to prove he was telling the truth now and he immediately accepted. The professional examiner asked him about working for American intelligence, being paid for it, being flown on a small jet to Bosnia for his mission there and other key parts of his story. On all major aspects of his story, he passed the polygraph test.

On February 1, 2004, thousands of Muslims gathered in Toronto for prayers to mark the end of the Hajj, the annual pilgrimage to Mecca. Abdurahman Khadr was among them. He volunteers at his local mosque and is looking for a job.


 
He hopes to be an accepted member of the Muslim community in Toronto, but is worried about the reaction to his story from other Muslims, especially from his own family. His mother and sister are still living in Pakistan and deny any family connection to al-Qaeda.

"They will dread me. My mother especially, she will dread me for doing this. She will totally dread me for doing this...She‘ll say ‘you left us. You sold out on your father. You sold out on your people. You know, you told a story, you know, you worked with the CIA.‘"


The vest  
Every day in Islamabad, Abdurahman‘s mother Maha carefully folds up a treasured family heirloom. It is the partially burned, blood-spattered military vest her husband was wearing when he was killed last October by the Pakistan military. She carries it with her everywhere as a kind of good luck charm, dreaming of the day that she and her children can join him in paradise, something she believes is guaranteed because her husband died the death of a shaheed, a martyr.


 
We did not tell Abdurahman‘s mother and sister the full details of his work for the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, but they figured he must have offered some co-operation in order to be released from Guantanamo.

"He is intelligent and it‘s okay," Maha says.

"As long as he didn‘t really help them," Zaynab says. "He just fooled them. I don‘t mind it. If he really did something, I‘d be ashamed of him, because Islamically, you‘re not allowed to co-operate with the enemy. It‘ll cost you your life."

Abdurahman Khadr says he would like to write a book about his personal journey from Osama bin Laden to the CIA. For now he‘s getting re-acquainted with life in Canada.


 
In Toronto, he likes to spend time on Gerrard Street, where he can carry on in Dhari, Pashtu, Urdu, and Arabic, as well as English.

He hopes that one day all the surviving members of his family can join him here to start a new life.

In Pakistan, the women of the Khadr family are living on handouts and the kindness of old friends of the family. Maha hopes to be able to return to Canada soon with her 14-year-old son Karim, so that he can get the best medical attention for his spinal cord injuries. She, too, hopes that one day her family can be back together, in one country, under one roof.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: clasper on March 05, 2004, 09:24:00
So Abdurahman Khadr was working for the CIA?  And when they no longer had any use for this double agent, no doubt they fed him milk and cookies, and let him walk out the front door.  Something in his story doesn‘t quite add up.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: absent_element on March 05, 2004, 09:27:00
Quote
Originally posted by The_Falcon:
[qb]  Well you know what b****, f*** you! your proud you hubby died a matyr as an enemy of Canada and her allies, then you stay over on that side of the world and rot!!

 [/qb]
My thoughts exactly. I guess it should give us an accurate idea about how Canada is viewed by terrorists and their supporters.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on March 05, 2004, 15:40:00
Welcome to the world of being politically correct, and as I have said before, this is simply a language of cowards.

Read on..... (if you thinks its bad in Toronto...)

Some Sydney suburbs are havens for extreme Islam with many supporting 11 Sep and Bali bombings. On 12 Sep 01, many danced in the streets partying. Other so called ‘men‘ are wanted in Lebanon fo terror bombings, but they freely walk the streets here. The govt will not deport beacuse thye have become citizens! Thats shocking but true. They have become above the law!

Many have been picked up by ASIO, and are being monitered by ASIO and other agencies right now.

There are almost 300,000 muslims in Sydney alone. That almost 100,000 more than our native Aboriginies in the whole country!

They have develped a power base here now, and many Australians wonde where there country will be in 25 yrs.

The terror threat from within our own borders is alive and well and REAL, thanks to our limp wristed government for letting them in here in droves without proper checks.

Now we have become quite hard on migrants from the middle east for obvious reasons, and we are condemmed in the media for doing so. In my opinion, and in another 18,000,000 Australians, we are not hard enough!

Cheers,

Wes
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on March 09, 2004, 11:32:00
Quote
Originally posted by Marauder:
[qb] To **** with arresting these phucks. They‘ve all but admitted to rendering aid and comfort to the enemy in a time of war. If the Liberals had any balls these b@stards would have been sent to their 72 virgins on a cold Toronto night after a no knock entry courtesy of the Dwyer Hill ski team. [/qb]
:D   That just made my morning.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Duotone81 on March 09, 2004, 13:15:00
Quote
Originally posted by absent_element:

One of the things that boils me most about this situation is after stating how pleased they were about her husband/father fighting and dying in Afghanistan she went onto say that she hopes to return to Canada so her injured son can get the best possible health care.  
That just proves they have no phookin idea what and who they are fighting. Someone said it best in another thread - War is part of there culture and always will be. It was ok to kill the Americans because they paid taxes?? WTF does that mean?   :eek:

Scum of the Earth. Words can‘t do justice in describing these "people".      :rage:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: portcullisguy on March 09, 2004, 14:04:00
As a front line border worker, I can tell you from personal experience the frustration we all feel at our collective inability to do anything to improve or influence immigration policy.

We, the workers, know the system is broken.  We cannot do anything to fix it, except do our jobs and hope things work out.

But alas, the situation is quite bad.

Often, because of the bureaucratic nightmare involved in a simple deportation, removal, or "permission to leave Canada" (huh?) document immigration CAN issue, it is often easier to simply suggest to a non-genuine visitor that they "withdraw" their entry to Canada, and leave voluntarily.

Of course, a week later, they come back and try their luck again.  Surprise!

This actually happened to me on a case I dealt with in December.

The details are unimportant, but a particular individual was sent to immigration by me, the front line customs officer, who was unwilling to decide to release this person freely into Canadian society.  Immigration did the best they could to poke holes in her story, and eventually, because there was no criminal history, and their documentation appeared in order, they were simply told to withdraw their entry, which the traveller did.

One week later, this same person showed up in Montreal.  This time, the person had been briefed properly by her handlers.  She had NO passport, and she immediately made a refugee claim.

Now, the "system" kicks in, and a person who was already asked to leave Canada once will now get a refugee hearing.  It is now believed the passport she had on her first trip was false, but since she didn‘t have it the second time, we don‘t have the evidence to prove it, and it wouldn‘t make a difference for her ref claim anyway.

By the way, it is an offence to use a forged passport to enter Canada... unless you are claiming refugee status!

There are a number of legitimate refugees that Canada receives each year, based on an allotment that the UNHCR decides for each industrialized naton.  They are screened, and are genuinely in need of protection from civil, political or religious strife somewhere in the world.  However, the vast majority who arrive at our borders -- EVERY DAY without fail -- are not genuine, and are simply jumping the queue, or taking advantage of our very weak system.

They cannot be screened properly at the port of entry, and we cannot detain them all.  Most of them are released with instructions to show up for their hearing, or face a warrant.  Big deal.  By the time the warrant is issued, they‘re long gone, living under another identity, or the warrant isn‘t in the computer system when/if they are stopped by police doing something they shouldn‘t be.

It is frustrating, and every border worker hates the situation.  But until those with decision-making power (ie, Cabinet) make significant changes, we are living with this obstacle to free and safe society.  Period.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: NMPeters on March 09, 2004, 14:05:00
"Word can‘t do justice in describing these "people". Well, in actual fact, words did. The media has just been used, big time, to promote the Al Quaeda organization. Because you know what? I‘ll lay money on it that there are some bleeding hearts sitting out there right now moaning and sniffling about the poor mother and child and how they should be allowed to come back to Canada. We are the "melting pot" after all. And there are some sitting out there poo pooing the CIA for the miserable treatment that they allowed to befall this poor soul. And some lawyer is going to volunteer their services to represent this family and get monetary retribution for what this country has put these poor people through. And this all happened because we allowed the media to interview this family and run with the story.

Methinks the Al Quaeda psy ops is working quite well.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Duotone81 on March 09, 2004, 14:46:00
What I meant to say was I couldn‘t think of any words that would properly portray them in their true context. Terrorists? That‘s a given. Homicidal maniacs? I‘m not qualified to make that assesment but they kill for no reason, IMO, so the line is very thin.

Helping out Al Qeada‘s cause? Who knows but I do see your point. The mother was spouting off crap about how Osama was a normal everyday guy. LMFOA! Anyone who claims justification for murder because people pay taxes and claims this behind a full body robe because she feels it‘s neccessary for women to not show their bodies deserves a knock upside the head. If anything I thought the doc showed just how truely disgusting these people are.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: venero on March 09, 2004, 14:57:00
It‘s time we start protecting this country from getting raped.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: mattoigta on April 08, 2004, 23:21:00
It just said on CBC that 2 members of the Khadr family - I believe the mother (who keeps "losing" canadian passports) and the son (who was injured in a gun fight with pakistani police men) - are on a plane to Canada. The flight is from Islamabad to Toronto, and is scheduled to land tomorrow afternoon.

  :gunner:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on April 09, 2004, 00:22:00
I would not want them as my neighbours! Canada is seen as a softy, as Australia used to be. we went hardline back in Aug 2001, and since then, we turn ‘em away. There has been few illegals coming in since then. All were mainly ME people who paid over 20,000 US dollars to get here by Indonesia.

Canada must adjust its immigration policy so that ‘trash‘ like this family are not allowed to enter.

Frankly I find it a national disgrace that this has been allowed to happen.

Regards,

Wes
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on April 09, 2004, 15:34:00
Quote
Originally posted by Pte. Scarlino:
[qb] It just said on CBC that 2 members of the Khadr family - I believe the mother (who keeps "losing" canadian passports) and the son (who was injured in a gun fight with pakistani police men) - are on a plane to Canada. The flight is from Islamabad to Toronto, and is scheduled to land tomorrow afternoon.
[/qb]
I hate the way this country is run. I hate the government. And I definetly HATE people like this who think nothing of it to spit at the country providing them care, and at the same put thier hand out for aid. F|_|CK THEM! It reasons like this that make disgusted to be a Canadian, and make me want to move across the border.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: 100235067 on April 09, 2004, 17:51:00
It is absoultly sickening to me that this country let this family back in. For anyone who saw the CBC documentry on these people knows what i am talking about. They are admitted islamic extrmeists. Buddys with Osama Bin Laden, they admit they are against the west and agree with terrorism. And Yeah they claim they lost Canadian Passports, sure...and by lost they mean gave them to terrorists.......just sick. This Government needs to go!

and thats all IMO
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on April 09, 2004, 18:06:00
I would love to see the Toronto police arrest them and their son and charge them for being terrorists.  

Or like someone said before, they should be given a no knock visit from the Dwyer Hill ski team.   :D
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on April 09, 2004, 18:08:00
Check out this article.

 http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=4fb9a358-4e1b-4587-9b16-6139825e57db

Khadr already in Toronto: "I‘m happy they‘re back and I‘m hoping my sister and other family will get back soon."

and

"We hope to get him into a hospital here", although he said the family has no idea yet how they‘ll pay for the boy‘s treatment.

He did say however that the family hoped to get financial aid through charities.

  :mad:    :mad:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Northern Touch on April 09, 2004, 18:17:00
Man, that is BS.  I was about to post the story in a new thread but you beat me to it.  I just saw it on the news, and I honestly felt like moving out of this country after watching it.  I wish there was something as citizens we could do about it.  Can anyone explain the reasoning to me why the Canadian government let them return?  I‘m beyond baffled.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on April 09, 2004, 19:10:00
Someone posted their comments about this story on a news site.  I think it was canada.com or cnews.  They said something along the lines of.

"I am going to be joining the Canadian forces, but when I see a story like this I ask myself why?  Why the **** should I risk my life to protect Canada from terrorism when the government gives them a free pass?"

That is so true.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on April 09, 2004, 19:13:00
Edit Double Post  ;)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Northern Touch on April 09, 2004, 20:03:00
Quote
Originally posted by scm77:
[qb] Someone posted their comments about this story on a news site.  I think it was canada.com or cnews.  They said something along the lines of.

"I am going to be joining the Canadian forces, but when I see a story like this I ask myself why?  Why the **** should I risk my life to protect Canada from terrorism when the government gives them a free pass?"

That is so true. [/qb]
When I told my mom about the news, she said almost the exact same thing to me.  All I could answer was "well, I hope the rest of the public in this country doesn‘t agree with it"  And I hope to god they dont.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on April 09, 2004, 20:10:00
Makes you wonder why we all bother...Why not just put up a sign "Terrorists welcome here"

  :gunner:    :mg:    :sniper:    :rocket:  .......  :skull:  That is the only thing we should be giving them!

Slim
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on April 09, 2004, 20:40:00
Welcome to our country, right this way please...

JTF2-->   :cam:      :rage:      :rage:   <--Mom and Son Khadr

That‘s how they SHOULD be handling this.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Northern Touch on April 09, 2004, 21:32:00
So does anyone know the reason WHY they were let back into the country?

I find it funny that on the news they even said the area of Scarborough which they were going to be living in, and you could see almost half the outside of the house too.  Glad I don‘t live in Scarborough.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: 100235067 on April 09, 2004, 21:57:00
Ottawa gave them emergency passports, (whatever that is)and I suppose they are technically Canadian Citizens and therefore have the right to enter into the country. The scum bag "leader" of the family pleaded with the G of C to help bring the brother back to get health care, for an injury from Pakistanian forces.....to bad they didnt finish the job, which i add he does not qualify for because he was out of the country too long.

Also, saw a quote form the mother eariler....she said "the only place for her sons are terrorist traning camps". what a sick F***

Yeah they did show alot of the house on TV.....I know that are pretty well, could probably find the house......    :mg:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Xfire on April 09, 2004, 22:06:00
our friends in Ottawa gave them a emergency pass...you guys know dang well there up to something
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Paul F on April 09, 2004, 22:08:00
So, as long as your a Canadian citizen, no matter what you do or say, the government will always support you. Isn‘t the government elected by the people and therefore supposed to represent the wishes and interests of Canada? I don‘t think it‘s in the interests of Canadians to allow these terrorist supporting leeches to live in freedom here in Canada when they are supporting a group of cowards trying to destabilize the West and destroy our way of life. But no doubt, they will get a nice care package, including low cost housing and welfare while they continue to spout off their garbage about their father/husband being a martyr and how they are all going to go to paradise after they die.

So the moral of the story: who gives two shits if you said about the 9/11 attacks "let them have it" or if you got your *** handed to you my forces allied with Canada like Khadr Jr. did.
 
Like Stockwell Day said: If they aren‘t come to tell us where bin Laden is, their citizenship should be revoked. Citizenship means sometimes to us as Canadians.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Xfire on April 09, 2004, 22:14:00
well at least someone has balls to say something lets see if he can do something
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bill Smy on April 09, 2004, 22:25:00
Work through this scenario:-

Young lad living in Canada decides to go to the United States and join the US Army. He wants to do this because he believes in the philosophy espoused by the US.

Gets in, takes training and is sent off to a "war" zone. Gets wounded. Comes back to Canada and wants the Canadian health care system to look after him.

What would the "Canadian" response be? Of course, most Canadians would say that he made certain choices, free choices. Tough, but it‘s obvious that the onus is on the US to look after the kid.

Now, why are we applying a separate set of rules for this terrorist? Who, if time and place had been different, could have easily been trying to kill Canadian soldiers?

We can whine all we want in this forum, but if you really want your voice heard, write your MP. I did.

Here‘s a link to get your MP‘s email address.

 http://www.parl.gc.ca/common/senmemb/house/members/CurrentMemberList.asp?Language=E&Parl=37&Ses=3&Sect=hoccur&Order=PersonOfficialLastName
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bill Smy on April 09, 2004, 23:35:00
Here is my letter to a select group of Cabinet members, the shadow cabinet, and local MPs:

I write to express my concerns with regard to the case of Karim Khadr who was wounded in Pakistan while fighting with al-Qaeda forces. Those concerns extend to his mother and brothers.
 
News reports state that the family "now admits that they are not only terrorists but believe it‘s noble for them to die for the cause" and had lived in bin Laden‘s camp.
 
The family has taken on a celebrity status -- this when for a difference in time and space, the soldiers that they were fighting could well have been Canadian. Sixty years ago this would have been deemed treason.
 
There seems to be a belief that now that they are back in Canada (as they have the right to do as citizens) there will be no consequences.
 
I have spoken to at least 25-30 friends on this matter and all believe each member should come under close scrutiny and if they have violated Canadian law they should be held accountable. Not one believed that Canadian citizens should be allowed to fight or support groups which Canada have declared terrorist, and then return without being subjected to the full extent of the law. I suspect that this is the belief of most Canadians.
 
Perhaps the authorities should be considering stripping away their citizenship and deporting them. After all, is that not what we are doing to other war criminals? Or is there a different standard?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on April 09, 2004, 23:40:00
Mate, they are not Canadians, but foreigners  living in Canada like a big tick, sucking what they can from their host.

Their loyality is NOT in Canada, but in the greasy ill-moraled giant shyte hole from whence they came!

One day, being politically correct will be a crime, capital punishment will be law, and we will all not be afraid to offend someone by saying the wrong thing!

I say send these paracites packing with one GIANT boot print on their arses!

I would not bat an eye if these people mysteriously disappeared and were never seen or heard of again.   :cool:  

Cheers,

Wes
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: absent_element on April 10, 2004, 07:08:00
No doubt this was a wrong choice by Canadian officials to let traitors like this family back into Canada. But, mayby were not seeing the whole picture. Perhaps there‘s a strategic reason behind it.

I think I‘m going to do as Bill Smy suggested write my elected representive and state my concerns to him.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Pieman on April 10, 2004, 07:32:00
Quote
 No doubt this was a wrong choice by Canadian officials to let traitors like this family back into Canada. But, mayby were not seeing the whole picture. Perhaps there‘s a strategic reason behind it.
I hope you are right, and the gov does have a strategic reason for this.

If anything, these people could have a wealth of information about AQ, and bin ladden himself. If that is is the case, it would be better to have them here so officials can interact with them, rather than rotting away in Packistan.

Taking a ‘Cooperate with us, or we will send you back.‘ attitude could prove useful.

If not, I feel this is a very stupid move by the government. I think there are very few people out there who like the idea of these people being let into this country and are angry about it. At the very least, I know  I don‘t like it one bit.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: absent_element on April 10, 2004, 07:36:00
‘Cooperate with us, or we will send you back.‘ attitude could prove useful.

Should be: cooperate with us or we will charge you with treason and throw you in jail.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Pieman on April 10, 2004, 07:51:00
That works too.....but then again, if they were charged, that would mean a big public trial which would be free publicity for AQ....and then God forbid they would get off!

No thanks! Send them back. On a boat with a big hole in the bottom.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on April 10, 2004, 14:22:00
I have just written my MP about this issue. Probably won‘t do a lick of good, the most that the government ever does is pay some shoddy lip service to the people in Canada at best but at least I spoke up.

Slim
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jungle on April 10, 2004, 16:30:00
Quote
No connection to al-Qaeda, says returning Khadr mother
Karim‘s mother, 47-year-old Maha Elsamnah, followed close behind, wearing a white headscarf. "I have no connection with al-Qaeda" was all she said as she made her way to the door.

Last month, in a TV interview from Pakistan, she praised her late husband as a martyr for Islam and said he chose the right path for her four sons. Taliban-controlled Afghanistan and its training camps instilled proper values, she said.  She insisted that the time the Khadrs spent in the compound with Mr. bin Laden was better than a life in Canada, where her boys could have become homosexuals or drug addicts.  

Asked yesterday how she felt to be home, Ms. Elsamnah simply said, "It‘s very nice."
 
Source:  Globe and mail article (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPPrint/LAC/20040410/KHADR10/TPNational/)
If life is so good in Pakistan, why come back here ? I hope they all join the dad soon...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Spr.Earl on April 10, 2004, 16:40:00
Strip them of their Citizenship and ship them back to Pakistan.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on April 10, 2004, 17:10:00
Jesus...And the government just let them back in after saying that they were virtual enemies of this country!?

Ship them right the **** back out the door!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on April 10, 2004, 17:21:00
Someone on TV said this.

Apparently Washington forget to tell Ottawa that there is a war on terrorism going on.  The United States is spending billions of dollars to keep terrorists out of their country while Canada is rushing them in on "emergency passports".
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on April 10, 2004, 18:19:00
I live in Scarborough, if per chance I see them crossing the street as I am driving around, who knows I might have sudden brake failure.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on April 10, 2004, 18:44:00
Just make sure its "justafyable." I wouldn‘t want to see anyone else loose their freedom or have their life ruined by these pieces of trash!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Xfire on April 10, 2004, 19:46:00
Quote
Originally posted by Jungle:
[qb]  
Quote
No connection to al-Qaeda, says returning Khadr mother
Karim‘s mother, 47-year-old Maha Elsamnah, followed close behind, wearing a white headscarf. "I have no connection with al-Qaeda" was all she said as she made her way to the door.

Last month, in a TV interview from Pakistan, she praised her late husband as a martyr for Islam and said he chose the right path for her four sons. Taliban-controlled Afghanistan and its training camps instilled proper values, she said.  She insisted that the time the Khadrs spent in the compound with Mr. bin Laden was better than a life in Canada, where her boys could have become homosexuals or drug addicts.  

Asked yesterday how she felt to be home, Ms. Elsamnah simply said, "It‘s very nice."
 
Source:  Globe and mail article (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPPrint/LAC/20040410/KHADR10/TPNational/)
If life is so good in Pakistan, why come back here ? I hope they all join the dad soon... [/qb]
2 things

1.tell others about plans (remeber a tape tellin us a plan was at 90% done)
2.use our ‘free‘ healthcare and taxpayers money
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on April 11, 2004, 01:53:00
These people have really pissed me off so I did a little searching and here are a few things I am posting here. The first is the Oath of Citizenship, see as how they weren‘t born here they had to take this oath to become citizens.

OATH OR AFFIRMATION OF CITIZENSHIP

I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.

The second is the crime of treason taken straight from the criminal code siting on my desk.
PART II
OFFENCES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER
 
 Treason and other Offences against the Queen‘s Authority and Person
 
High treason
 46. (1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada,

(a) kills or attempts to kill Her Majesty, or does her any bodily harm tending to death or destruction, maims or wounds her, or imprisons or restrains her;

(b) levies war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto; or

(c) ASSISTS AN ENEMY AT WAR WITH CANADA, OR ANY ARMED FORCES AGAINST WHOM CANADIAN FORCES ARE ENGAGED IN HOSTILITIES, WHETHER OR NOT A STATE OF WAR EXISTS BETWEEN CANADA AND THE COUNTRY WHOSE FORCES THEY ARE.
 
Treason
 (2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada,

(a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province;

(b) without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;

(c) conspires with any person to commit high treason or to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a);

(d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act; or

(e) conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) or forms an intention to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) and manifests that intention by an overt act.
 
Canadian citizen
 (3) Notwithstanding subsection (1) or (2), a Canadian citizen or a person who owes allegiance to Her Majesty in right of Canada,

(a) commits high treason if, while in or out of Canada, he does anything mentioned in subsection (1); or

(b) commits treason if, while in or out of Canada, he does anything mentioned in subsection (2).
 
Overt act
 (4) Where it is treason to conspire with any person, the act of conspiring is an overt act of treason.

R.S., c. C-34, s. 46; 1974-75-76, c. 105, s. 2.
 
Punishment for high treason
 47. (1) Every one who commits high treason is guilty of an indictable offence and shall be sentenced to imprisonment for life.
 
Punishment for treason
 (2) Every one who commits treason is guilty of an indictable offence and liable

(a) to be sentenced to imprisonment for life if he is guilty of an offence under paragraph 46(2)(a), (c) or (d);

(b) to be sentenced to imprisonment for life if he is guilty of an offence under paragraph 46(2)(b) or (e) committed while a state of war exists between Canada and another country; or

(c) to be sentenced to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years if he is guilty of an offence under paragraph 46(2)(b) or (e) committed while no state of war exists between Canada and another country.
 
Corroboration
 (3) No person shall be convicted of high treason or treason on the evidence of only one witness, unless the evidence of that witness is corroborated in a material particular by evidence that implicates the accused.
 
Minimum punishment
 (4) For the purposes of Part XXIII, the sentence of imprisonment for life prescribed by subsection (1) is a minimum punishment.

R.S., c. C-34, s. 47; 1974-75-76, c. 105, s. 2.
 
Limitation
 48. (1) No proceedings for an offence of treason as defined by paragraph 46(2)(a) shall be commenced more than three years after the time when the offence is alleged to have been committed.
 
Information for treasonable words
 (2) No proceedings shall be commenced under section 47 in respect of an overt act of treason expressed or declared by open and considered speech unless

(a) an information setting out the overt act and the words by which it was expressed or declared is laid under oath before a justice within six days after the time when the words are alleged to have been spoken; and

(b) a warrant for the arrest of the accused is issued within ten days after the time when the information is laid.

R.S., c. C-34, s. 48; 1974-75-76, c. 105, s. 29.

I highlighted (capitalized) the main clause I would use, but based on their statement on the CBC, they are guilty of treason in several other clauses.

Lastly I am posting a link to the Criminal Code Section regarding Terrorism.  Again based on their statements and media reports, they also appear to be guilty of several things in that section as well.    http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-46/40997.html  

This whole thing is just insane, sad, incomprehensible in this day and age.  Sometimes I truly wondering what we are doing here at all.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: absent_element on April 11, 2004, 07:51:00
Absolutely ******* disgusting. The fact that the gov just let them back in, gave them emergency passports to come back. What kind country are we living in?

I heard somewhere that the 21 year old Kadr was asked what they were going to do for money and he responded by saying something along the lines of "depending on charities" OMFG...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: bossi on April 11, 2004, 10:07:00
Canada must be the laughing stock of the world - in less than one week, 100 refugee claimants ... (and, how the heck do they get on an international flight without proper travel documents?  I thought it was the responsibility of the airline to screen them, or else they‘d be responsible for their return voyage ... ?  Legitimate immigrants must be fuming at this abuse.)
PLUG THIS LEAK!!!  (oh, wait - what was I thinking - no wonder our doors are wide open to anybody and everybody ... it‘s a "make work project" for Foreign Affairs ... right, Sameer?  And, let‘s not forget - the Federal Liberal Party needs all the votes it can buy ... so what if some of these refugee applicants with terrorist ties have Canadian blood on their hands ... as long as they vote Liberal, right?)


Refugee claimants like new terminal
By TOM GODFREY, TORONTO SUN
Sun, April 11, 2004

 
THE NEW $3.6-billion Pearson airport Terminal 1 is not only a hit with travellers, but refugee claimants love it as well. Nearly 100 claimants have sought refuge at the facility since it opened for business last Monday, airport officers said.

Some refugees even arrived during the terminal‘s inaugural flight.

Immigration and Customs agents said more than half of the claimants were detained in new airport detention cells because they had no travel documents.

Janina Lebon, of the Canada Employment and Immigration Union, said officers are concerned about those arriving without proper documentation.

"Officers want to know who these people are," Lebon said.

She said claimants can be detained because they‘re a danger to the public, might not appear for hearings, or lack identification.

Officers said the number of claimants has increased with the opening of the terminal. About a dozen claimants arrived nightly before.

John King, of the Customs and Excise Union, said the unidentified claimants led to his officers obtaining bullet proof vests, batons and pepper spray.

"We always deal with the unknown," King said. "We don‘t know who these people are and it is a concern."

Officers said most claimants are from Costa Rica, Mexico, India and Pakistan.

Immigration officials couldn‘t be reached for comment yesterday.

+++++++++++


Federal agents will grill Khadrs
CSIS HOPING FOR NEW INFO ON AL-QAIDA
By BILL RODGERS AND TOM GODFREY, SUN MEDIA
Sun, April 11, 2004
 
 
AS CANADIAN security agents begin to question the al-Qaida-linked Khadr family, U.S. police warn they‘re not welcome south of the border. "I can‘t imagine that their movements wouldn‘t be monitored" if they attempted to cross into the United States, an American government official told Sun Media yesterday on condition of anonymity.

Canadian Security Intelligence Service agents were to begin yesterday interviewing Maha Elsamnah, 47, and her son, Karim Khadr, 14, who arrived in Toronto Friday from Pakistan.

QUESTIONS ON BIN LADEN

Security agents are hoping to find out if the two had recent contact with al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden, or if other Canadians are involved in his terrorist network, police said.

CSIS spokesman Nicole Currier refused comment yesterday.

The family has publicly spoken about its links to bin Laden and its involvement with al-Qaida.

One son, Omar, 17, is in U.S. custody in Guantanamo Bay after being arrested in Afghanistan two years ago, accused of killing a U.S. soldier.

His older brother, Abdurahman Khadr, was released from the same prison camp last year after being held on suspicion of being a terrorist. He is living in Toronto.

Abdurahman has admitted to being interviewed on at least two occasions by CSIS after returning to Canada.

KILLED IN SHOOTOUT

The father, Ahmed Said Khadr, an Egyptian-born Canadian and allegedly a close confidante of bin Laden, was killed in a gunfight with Pakistani security forces last October. His son, Karim, who returned to Canada with his mother last week, was paralysed in the same shootout.

Foreign affairs continued its efforts to calm the public uproar over the return of the Khadrs. Spokesman Sameer Ahmed said there was no truth to a report that the Canadian government paid for the airfares of the returning family members. "The Khadrs used their own funds," Ahmed said, noting that Canadian diplomats arranged their flights home on one-time emergency passports.

++++++

‘Outrageous‘ Grit actions
By Bob MacDonald
Sun, April 11, 2004

 
FAMILY AND friends of the 24 Canadians killed in the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001 must be shocked to learn that members of an "al-Qaida family" have been allowed back into Canada. I‘m referring to the arrival Friday at Pearson airport of Maha Elsamnah and her 14-year-old son, Abdul Karim Khadr. They are the wife and son of Egyptian-born Ahmed Said Khadr, a top official in Osama bin laden‘s al-Qaida terrorist network.

Not only did the family -- including three other brothers -- live near the terrorist training camps of bin Laden in Afghanistan, but they were involved in fighting against anti-terrorist forces that included Canadians.

The father, Ahmed, was killed recently in Pakistan in fighting with security forces. Karim ended up shot and paralyzed in the same firefight.

GUANTANAMO BAY

Another son, Omar, 17, is being held by U.S. forces at Guantanamo Bay. He‘s charged with killing a U.S. soldier in Afghanistan during a battle against al-Qaida and supporting Taliban forces.

Another brother is still on the loose, believed to be an al-Qaida-Taliban commander in the Afghanistan- Pakistan region.

And a fourth brother, Abdurahman Khadr, was released from a U.S. jail and allowed to return to Toronto. When he was interviewed by CBC-TV last month, he commented: "We are an al-Qaida family."

His mother and a sister, interviewed in Pakistan, said they were proud of their family‘s connection to al-Qaida. The mother said she‘d be happy if her children died the same way as her husband -- an al-Qaida Muslim "martyr".

What‘s really shocking about this family‘s return is that the federal Liberal government -- both under Jean Chretien and now Paul Martin -- has been so helpful to them over the years.

Back in 1995, Ahmed Khadr was arrested in Pakistan for his role in a deadly embassy bombing. Later, on a visit to Pakistan, Prime Minister Chretien appealed to the Pakistan president to have him released. It was done.

Apparently, a so-called aid program headed by Ahmed Khadr received help from a Canadian federal government agency.

And what did Khadr do? Why, he ended up heading back to bin Laden -- along with the whole Khadr family.

And now, these years later, the Paul Martin-led Liberal regime has gone out of its way to help these recent Khadr family members return to Canada. Foreign Affairs Minister Bill Graham‘s office interceded and gave special visas to the mother and son to return to Canada.

No wonder Conservative foreign affairs critic Stockwell Day declared: "The whole thing is outrageous -- that she (Mrs. Khadr) would be afforded the full rights of Canadian citizenship when she and her family ... have been involved in the training fields and the killing fields of al-Qaida."

Which brings us to that terrible day of Sept. 11, 2001 when a group of Arab-Muslim terrorists connected to al-Qaida hijacked civilian airliners and slaughtered more than 3,000 men, women, and children, including two dozen who were Canadians.

They included the likes of Ken Basnicki, a 48-year-old father of two killed in the north tower of the World Trade Center. The last word from him was a cell phone call to his mother at 8:55 a.m. from the burning tower.

And there was David Barkway, a 34-year-old executive from Toronto who was visiting a client on the 105th floor of the north tower. Before dying, he sent an electronic message to colleagues in Toronto, saying he was in trouble.

‘A BIG HEART‘

There was Christine Egan, of Winnipeg, visiting her brother in the south tower. "She had such a big heart," recalled friend Sharon Judd.

The truth is that the paralyzed Abdul Karim Khadr needs special medical care. And just as soon as he meets the residency requirements -- some say three months -- he‘ll be eligible for OHIP support paid for by Ontario and Canadian taxpayers.

And some of those taxpayers will be the still-grieving families and friends of those ruthlessly murdered 24 Canadians. That is really outrageous. Thanks goes to Martin and his always vote-seeking Liberals.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Spr.Earl on April 11, 2004, 10:14:00
Britain and Canada have the most relaxed Laws and are the most generous countries in the World when it comes to Refugees.
Right now in the Britain,Blare is in trouble over a back door policy the Labour Government did.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on April 11, 2004, 16:55:00
ARRRGGHHH. Our government are idiots.  First the story of Refugee claimants. Since when has thier been fighting in Mexico or Costa Rica? WTF?!!! And like I posted earlier by their own statements and actions they are all guilty of Treason and High Treason.  One can only pray that the Liberals are turfed and we get a Conservative Government that has the cojones to interrogate these leeches and parasites and then try them and send them to prison for the rest of thier lives (unfortunately we no longer have the death penalty for Treason anymore, because they all deserve to hang from the end of a short rope). Doing this, and fixing our broken immigration system would show the world, we are not going to put up with this cr@p anymore.

I hope they all rot in he||, and the father who died a so called martyr, we I hope Robin Williams was right and their and their was a mistranlation. He won‘t see 72 virgins but rather 72 Virgians.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bill Smy on April 12, 2004, 22:09:00
Anyone know the web address for this petition so I can sign it?

====================
The Toronto Sun
Mon, April 12, 2004

Petition to turf Khadrs

CANADIANS OUTRAGED AL-QAIDA SUPPORTERS ALLOWED ENTRY

By KEVIN CONNOR, TORONTO SUN

AN ONLINE petition has been created calling for the Khadr family to be deported as an alleged security risk to Canada. Maha Elsamnah and her 14-year-old son Karim Khadr, who both have had ties to al-Qaida, were granted entry into Canada on Friday without passports.

"I, as a Canadian citizen, do not feel safe knowing that we have fundamentalists living in our own backyard. A family who hates everything this country stands for should not be welcome," said Donna Campbell, the 33-year-old Scarborough woman who started the petition yesterday.

"My goal is to have this family deported as I fear for the safety of myself, my family, and my fellow Canadians."

Elsamnah and Khadr are the wife and son of Ahmed Said Khadr, 57, who was killed in Pakistan last year during a raid against suspected terrorists.

They are a family long connected to al-Qaida, have lived in a compound with Osama bin Laden, and spent time in terrorist training camps that supported the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.

The petition to the federal government says the Khadr family should be immediately and permanently deported and that they should be barred from accessing Canadian benefits, such as the health care system.

Karim Khadr was wounded last fall in a gunfight with Pakistani security forces and needs medical attention. The teen was shot in the spine during the shootout that killed his father.

"The federal government, in allowing the Khadrs back into Canada, have insulted all Canadians and should be ashamed of themselves. This, and other Liberal farces will not be forgotten on election day," said Paul Jones, one of the dozens who have signed the petition.

The government has gone mad allowing them in the country, Mair Traversy said.

"There is no room on the soil that my husband fought for, over 60 years ago, for families that admit they have been trained by Osama," Traversy said.

"We won‘t forget this."
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bill Smy on April 12, 2004, 22:19:00
Wouldn‘t you know it, as soon as I post the previous request, a friend sends along the web address for the petition

 http://www.petitiononline.com/khadr/petition.html
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Xfire on April 12, 2004, 22:24:00
well atleast i hope our MP listens to this because alot of people are going to be pissed off if they dont do anything
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on April 12, 2004, 22:33:00
Justsigned the thing. Felt right!  :cdn:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jarnhamar on April 12, 2004, 22:37:00
I saw an argument on TV where some offical was defending the decision to let the bugger back into canada. Saying he was a canadian citizen and you can‘t just go and yank someones citizenship away. Kinda made sence to me. Let them him back in but throw him in jail, start the paper work to deport him.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on April 12, 2004, 22:55:00
After the first Gulf war we did the same thing. We welcomed people back into Canada that had gone and fought for the Iraqis.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Tommy on April 13, 2004, 01:43:00
I signed it too...


this sorta thing is really starting to tick me off...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on April 13, 2004, 02:10:00
That guy is an idiot, You can revoke Citizenship for people who were naturalized. Read this as well.


Family hearing threats: Get out or else


By Kevin Connor


 
 
MAHA ELSAMNAH is terrified by the numerous threats she has received from Canadians who don‘t want her in the country because of her links to Osama bin Laden, her mother said yesterday. Elsamnah and her 14-year-old son Karim Khadr -- who have had ties to al-Qaida -- returned to Toronto from Pakistan on Friday.

"My family is getting threats to leave the country. We haven‘t harmed anyone and we are being judged," Elsamnah‘s mother said from her Scarborough home. She asked not to be named because family members would "kill her."

"I have lived here for 30 years. I have no other country to go to. It‘s prejudice because we are Muslims."

CSIS INTERVIEW

Yesterday, Canadian Security Intelligence Service agents began interviewing Elsamnah and Khadr, hoping to find out if they had recent contact with bin Laden, or if other Canadians are involved in al-Qaida.

Elsamnah was filmed in a recent documentary where she supported the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks. "Our English isn‘t good. People take things the wrong way," her mother said.

Elsamnah‘s mother says the most important thing is to get medical attention for her grandson, who was paralyzed in a battle with Pakistani security forces that killed his father.

A petition has started asking Ottawa to refuse him medical treatment and to deport the family back to Pakistan.

"Who are these people to decide that. He is a sick boy and we will find a hospital," his grandmother said.


I like how they say it‘s prejudiced because they are muslim. No it is because they are terrorist and traitors
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Infanteer on April 13, 2004, 02:50:00
Face the ditch....
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on April 13, 2004, 06:45:00
I signed it, so those who have not, do it now.

Ta helll with being politically correct, stand up and be counted!

Do the right thing, and support your country.

Regards,

Wes
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: absent_element on April 13, 2004, 08:00:00
I signed it. I just hope it has the intended affect.

"I have lived here for 30 years. I have no other country to go to. It‘s prejudice because we are Muslims."

They (terrorists & supporters) always take the prejudice route, don‘t they?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on April 13, 2004, 11:21:00
Yup.  But you know what I am prejudiced. I am completely prejudiced against terrorists, traitors, and everybody else who threatens the peace and security of my country, my neighbourhood, and my way of life, regardless of skin colour or religion.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on April 13, 2004, 11:41:00
"I have no other country to go to. It‘s prejudice because we are Muslims."

No other country to go?  What about Pakistan?  I think what they ment to say was no other country to go where I can get free healthcare for my terrorist son.  :mad:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: absent_element on April 13, 2004, 13:00:00
I just hope the petition proves useful.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on April 13, 2004, 13:31:00
Well at the rate it is going and the publicity it is getting in the media, it should top 5000 by tomorrow
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: mattoigta on April 13, 2004, 13:56:00
Yeah i just read an article in the Toronto Star where it was mentioned a few times
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on April 12, 2004, 23:06:00
Found this online.  Immigration officials say it is unlikely to work, but I still encourage everyone here (that agrees) to sign it.  You should also read the comments.  Plenty about Paul Martin committing political suicide, and Stephen Harper being the next PM.   :D  

  http://www.petitiononline.com/khadr/petition-sign.html?

P.S. Not sure if this is the right forum.  If not please move it.  ;)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Xfire on April 12, 2004, 23:33:00
wow everytime i keep lookin at it it goes up by 10 lol
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: webster on April 12, 2004, 23:42:00
hahaha...i keep reloading and watching it as well!!
I really dont have a life...lol. I want in the army!!!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jason Bourne on April 13, 2004, 00:53:00
about time someone got something like that started... :)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jarnhamar on April 13, 2004, 00:54:00
I just heard on the news, a petition is going around the internet to keep them IN canada...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on April 13, 2004, 01:19:00
You kidding right...?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on April 13, 2004, 02:13:00
I just read the petition and signed (before I did the number who had signed was 666, spooky)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GirlFiredUp on April 13, 2004, 11:56:00
It is growing fast.. last count, 1387.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jarnhamar on April 13, 2004, 12:13:00
I hate to be negitive here guys but i really believe for each one of us who is insulted by this and wants the kid gone, 10 people will want to adopt him. It‘s sad but it‘s true. It‘s the mentality of a heck of a lot of people in canada. I just hope im wrong.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: kurokaze on April 13, 2004, 12:29:00
Maybe we can relocate them to Hans island.  They like being Canadian so much they can help protect our sovereignty!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GirlFiredUp on April 13, 2004, 12:29:00
I‘ll adopt him only if I can tie him to a tree in my yard and put the boots to him.   Hehe.  Just kidding.  I‘ll let Infanteer take care of him.  You wouldn‘t mind would ya?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jarnhamar on April 13, 2004, 13:17:00
"I‘ll adopt him only if I can tie him to a tree in my yard and put the boots to him. Hehe. Just kidding"

LOL
Awesome.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Napalm(Banned) on April 13, 2004, 13:32:00
If they openly announce that they wish to become martyrs like their deceased father, the Canadian government should, in their own welfare, help the family pursue their lifelong dreams and shoot them.
Just like the Israeli‘s helped sheik Yassin rendevous with his 72 virgins. Eutanasia through Hellfire missile is what I call it.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: CFN. Orange on April 13, 2004, 14:44:00
2177
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: CheersShag on April 13, 2004, 15:00:00
I like reading the comments.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Brad Sallows on April 13, 2004, 16:31:00
Since when does being a jackass merit losing citizenship and being deported?  People in all walks of life make all sorts of treasonous utterances and involve themselves in all sorts of disloyal activity.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on April 13, 2004, 17:16:00
People don‘t want them deported for "being a jackass".  They want them deported for being a terrorist.

2689
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Brad Sallows on April 13, 2004, 18:05:00
OK, I haven‘t been following the matter that closely.  What did they do to qualify as terrorists?  Bomb an aircraft flagged to another country?  Shoot a doctor who performs abortions?  Bomb an industrial plant?  Donate money to a political front for terrorists?  Kidnap a foreign diplomat?  Execute a member of any level of government?  Anything in particular that wouldn‘t merit treatment as criminals of this country since they are citizens of this country?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on April 13, 2004, 18:21:00
The one who already lives in Toronto, went to an alqaed training camp in a-stan.  I believe the 14 year old who is now paralized went to one as well.  The father who is dead was a close associate of Bin Laden.  They were all living with Bin Laden on 9/11.  The mother and daughter said things like "america got what what they deserved" (refrencing 9/11).  The mother said she encouraged her son to be a terrorist and a suicide bomber.

The 14 year old was paralized in a shootout with pakistani police/military, which also killed his father.  After hating western society they are now back in Canada so they can get free healthcare for their son.   :mad:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Duotone81 on April 13, 2004, 18:50:00
I know next to nothing about international law but couldn‘t the Americans get the paralyzed son extradicted to the US as a prisoner of war (or illegal/legal combatant or whatever the Americans call them)? Those people would prove to be useful in the hands of US authorities than back in Pakistan (or wherever they‘re from) one would think.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: nULL on April 13, 2004, 19:12:00
This may sound stupid, but couldn‘t it be a good thing to have them in the country? I mean, if you KNOW these people have connections to terrorist groups, isn‘t it better to keep an eye on them, know where they go, who they associate with (that could be important) etc? I mean, if deported, they are gone, and could just vanish. It‘s got to be safer to know that a bad guy is out there, than to NOT know, right?

Did that make any sense?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Brad Sallows on April 13, 2004, 19:17:00
From where I sit, then, it seems either they have performed deeds which were illegal under Canadian laws at the time, or they have not.  Either they may be tried, or not.  I don‘t see any grounds for deportation, yet.

Has any other country requested we extradite any of them?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on April 13, 2004, 19:25:00
It makes sense nULL, but the only thing is do you think our government is really going to able to keep tabs on them for very long.  We have close to 25,000-30,000 illegal immigrants in this country that have just up and disappeared.  And as we have seen, despite tough talk from CSIS the government is quite friendly to this family, and this is the second time it has helped them out.

And to Brad Swallows I would suggest you actually read the laws we have on the books for terrorism and treason.  They have violated them both.  And even though they are Canadian citizens, this country in the past (although they have to forced kicking and screaming to do it) has stripped the citizenship and given the boot to Nazi War criminals
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Brad Sallows on April 13, 2004, 20:07:00
As I wrote, if they‘ve violated laws they can (and should) be tried.

Did we give the boot to Nazi war criminals because they were Nazi war criminals, or because they violated one of the conditions for obtaining citizenship?

The crux of the issue: if a naturalized citizen obtained citizenship under completely legitimate circumstances, what (if any) are the grounds for treating him any differently than a citizen by birth?  I was born here.  If I were to commit a crime of terrorism, does the law provide for my deportation and to where would you presume to deport me?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Infanteer on April 15, 2004, 00:54:00
Quote
The crux of the issue: if a naturalized citizen obtained citizenship under completely legitimate circumstances, what (if any) are the grounds for treating him any differently than a citizen by birth? I was born here. If I were to commit a crime of terrorism, does the law provide for my deportation and to where would you presume to deport me?
I think all terrorists, foreign or domestic, should be deported to Berkeley, California.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Tyrnagog on April 15, 2004, 00:56:00
Don‘t you think that‘s a little TOO cruel and unusual, Infanteer?  I mean.. Berkeley?  shudder...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: dwild40 on April 15, 2004, 01:03:00
woo hoo I am a number 6808
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Tyrnagog on April 15, 2004, 01:06:00
good for you?!?!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: CheersShag on April 15, 2004, 01:18:00
Not arguing the validity of the idea behind the petition; but does anyone find it harder to take a internet petition as seriously as they do one on paper?

It just seems like the same kind of person who would come on here, flame everyone and claim to be a JTF elite sniper, could easily sign this petition as many times as they want without leaving any method (other than an E-Mail) of contacting them to confirm their existence etc.

Just wondering if anyone knows if theres anything to prevent someone from signing it over and over again.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: nbk on April 15, 2004, 02:31:00
I was all ready to support them living in Canada until I read a news article with this quote:  

 
Quote
Ms. Elsamnah told CBC television earlier this year that she would be proud to have her children become suicide bombers and said she sent her four sons to al-Qaeda camps because it was better than raising them in Canada.

"Would you like me to raise my child in Canada and by the time he‘s 12 or 13 to be on drugs or having some homosexual relation or this and that?" she said.  
Send her back to Pakistan and let the authorities over there deal with disrespectful scum like that. Or better yet I could wish she fled to Afghanistan so I could push Infanteer aside and blow her away myself.   :mad:   :mad:   :mg:  

Yeah I know I‘m not being PC, so I will probably get flamed to **** (or the mods can edit my post if they think I went over the line), but when people are only Canadians when its convenient, and the stupid government decides to reward them with free healthcare and probably give them a pile of cash and 5 free extra passports, its just too bloody much for me. It is treason no question. And dare I say the government is almost acting along the lines of treason by allowing these ingrates to live here. Even if you put their disrespect aside, they are sort of connected to what may be a terrorist group, and that is enough reason to kick them out, as they pose a threat to the country.

I can just picture it, Dalton hand delivers her first welfare cheque she grabs it, spits on him and tells him to piss off cause he is a dirty infidel.

I mean what is wrong with the government? Kick her the **** out of the country now. The really sad thing is there is no good alternative to vote for, so we just have to put up this stupidity....arrrrg...   :mad:    :mad:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: nbk on April 15, 2004, 03:05:00
And let me just clarify before a mod wants to ban me: I do not intend that as a real threat to her, but her remarks just do not sit well with me. And I speak out of my emotional dissatisfaction with the Canadian Governments actions over this issue.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Infanteer on April 15, 2004, 04:33:00
Now you know how I feel, nbk....
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Superman on April 15, 2004, 04:40:00
Quote
Originally posted by Che:
[qb] Not arguing the validity of the idea behind the petition; but does anyone find it harder to take a internet petition as seriously as they do one on paper?[/qb]
Hey... Well i think it is being taken seriously because this morning i was listening to the radio and with the story about that horrible family they mentioned that there is a internet petition going on to try and get the family removed.. They said it shows how much Canadians disapprove of this family living here..
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bill Smy on April 15, 2004, 13:58:00
Quote
I can just picture it, Dalton hand delivers her first welfare cheque she grabs it, spits on him and tells him to piss off cause he is a dirty infidel.
Naivete isn‘t grounds to gain refugee status

The Standard

Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 01:00

Editorial - It's doubful there's sympathy among veterans of the Canadian Forces and serving members of militia units such as Niagara's Lincoln and Welland Regiment for the refugee claim by Brandon Hughey.

The 18-year-old Texan, who is living in St. Catharines while seeking refugee status in Canada, deserted from the U.S. Army's 1st Cavalry on the same day his unit was being shipped out from Fort Hood, Texas, for the Middle East early last month.

Hughey says when he enlisted in the army in August 2002, he saw it as an opportunity to go to college, never thinking he would be going to war.

But this was less than a year after 9/11, and while war with Iraq might not have struck him as a possibility, there was enough turmoil around the globe that the chance of conflict involving U.S. troops was imminent, whether as combatants, peacemakers or peacekeepers.

Indeed, this is the case for most western military forces. Even part-time soldiers such as members of the Lincs and Winks have served and are serving alongside regular forces in peacekeeping missions in Bosnia and Afghanistan, where danger is always present â ” as humanitarian agency workers know well.

Perhaps it is the naivete of youth, but when someone enlists to be a soldier, the training is to ready him or her for combat, whether in an offensive, defensive or support role.

Hughey says he is confident his refugee claim will be successful and that he will set up permanent residence in Canada.

But one wonders on what grounds the Immigration and Refugee Board can grant him refugee status. As a deserter, he faces certain arrest and court martial if he is returned to the U.S., and a probable jail term. There is certainly no likelihood of the death penalty, although desertion in time of war is punishable by death in the U.S. â ” a punishment not meted out since the Second World War.

People might sympathize with a young man who perhaps was misled by the glamour and opportunities offered in recruiting brochures and spiels, but naivete is hardly cause for a refugee claim.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bill Smy on April 15, 2004, 14:06:00
NATIONAL POST

KHADRS WILL GET MEDICAL, SOCIAL BENEFITS, MCGUINTY SAYS PROVINCE‘S RESPONSIBILITY
April 14, 2004

TORONTO - Ontario will "assume its responsibility" by offering health and
social benefits to the Khadr family, the controversial clan with alleged links to al-Qaeda, Premier Dalton McGuinty said yesterday.
Mr. McGuinty said until the federal government says otherwise, Canadian citizens Maha Elsamnah, her 14-year-old son, Karim, and his brother
Abdurahman Khadr, 21, are entitled to receive health-care coverage or apply for social assistance benefits.

"We will assume our responsibility on behalf of the citizens of Ontario. If the federal government wishes to change the status of those
people, that‘s up to them."

Ms. Elsamnah and Karim returned to Canada from Pakistan last Friday, reportedly to receive medical attention. Karim was paralyzed in October
during a gun battle with Pakistani security officers near the Afghanistan border and had been in a Pakistani hospital.

His father, Ahmed, who U.S. intelligence officials say was an al-Qaeda financier and advisor to Osama bin Laden, was killed in the
same battle.

Conservative MPP Bob Runciman criticized Ontario‘s Liberal government yesterday for not lobbying federal officials to have the Khadrs expelled, calling them "Canada‘s first family of terrorism."

"They‘ve shown pretty clearly that that‘s the case. I don‘t think they merit continued Canadian citizenship. I think they forfeited
their right to Canadian citizenship and all of the benefits that go with it."

Mr. Runciman wants the federal government to amend the Citizenship Act so proven terrorists would have their citizenship revoked.

"They are Canadians of convenience, there‘s no question about it. Come back here to recuperate and then move on to nefarious
activities," he said.

The return of the paralyzed Karim has touched off a storm of controversy.

An Internet petition www.petitiononline.com/khadr/petition.html) (http://www.petitiononline.com/khadr/petition.html)) calls on the federal government to deny the family welfare and health benefits, and to deport them. The petition has received more than 3,000
hits since being set up over the weekend, the Web site says.

Health Ministry officials say new or returning residents of Ontario must live in the province for three months before becoming eligible for medical benefits. An official at the Ministry of Community and Social Services said
no such requirements exist in order to collect welfare.

Abdurahman Khadr returned to Canada last year after being released from U.S. detention at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

He made headlines around the world when he admitted to attending al-Qaeda training camps between 1992 and 2003.

Their 17-year-old brother, Omar Khadr, remains in U.S. custody in Guantanamo Bay. He was arrested in Afghanistan almost two years ago and is accused of killing a U.S. soldier.

Ms. Elsamnah told CBC television this year she would be proud to have her children become suicide bombers. She said she sent her four
sons to al-Qaeda training camps because it was better than raising them in Canada.

In the same CBC segment, Ms. Elsamnah‘s daughter, Zaynab, commented on the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks: "They deserve it. They‘ve been doing it for such a long time, why shouldn‘t they feel it once in a while?"
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on April 15, 2004, 14:07:00
Number 7788!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GirlFiredUp on April 15, 2004, 14:25:00
Quote
Originally posted by Bill Smy:
Hughey says he is confident his refugee claim will be successful and that he will set up permanent residence in Canada.
I‘m sure he is quite confident.  He must have heard about the Khadr family.  The guy bails out on his own country and runs straight into Canada and no doubt, we‘ll accept him with open arms, hand over a welfare check and a foot rub at the same time.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bill Smy on April 15, 2004, 18:07:00
I think the response is over 10,000. Here is Diane Ablonccczy‘s response--

Thank you very much for your recent correspondence regarding the return of members of the Khadr family to Canada.  This issue has upset many Canadians and my office has received several emails as a result.

"Canada has laws against expressing hatred or advocating violence against identifiable groups (Section 318 of the Criminal Code defines an identifiable group as, â Å“any section of the public distinguished by colour, race, religion, ethnic origin.â ?)  So it is entirely consistent with Canadian traditions and values to refuse to accept those who violate these prohibitions (especially those who do so openly and explicitly) into the Canadian family, and to exclude those same people who were accepted prior to their repugnant views becoming known.

The Citizenship Act should be changed to provide clear and objective guidelines for refusing/revoking citizenship in such circumstances, and provide an expeditious and efficient due process for enforcing those guidelines."
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bill Smy on April 17, 2004, 16:26:00
She‘s demanding her rights. We should demand her obligations
=================

KHADRS‘CITIZENSHIP FUELS PUBLIC OUTCRY

By COLIN FREEZE
From Saturday‘s Globe and Mail
 
Behind the brick walls of his grandparents‘ house in Scarborough, where a tattered Maple Leaf flutters on the front porch, Karim Khadr lies listlessly on a pink rug in the living room watching TV.

There are Palestinian flags and Arabic verses on the walls, Hollywood movies beside the VCR and five threatening messages on the answering machine.

"You‘re not wanted in this country," says one anonymous caller. "Get the **** out of this country, you *******s," says another. "I thought maybe by now you‘d get the **** out of here and take off back to Pakistan with your al-Qaeda friends," says a third.

Karim, who has just turned 15 and is mostly paralyzed from the waist down, has been back in Canada for one week. Lying on the floor in his Toronto Blue Jays sweatshirt, he seems perplexed.

"I‘m not a bad person. Why am I a bad person?" he said, his head a foot away from his mother‘s painted toenails. "Maybe we‘re even a little bit better than some of them."

Six months ago, he was in Waziristan, Pakistan, with his father, Ahmed Said Khadr, a long-time terrorism suspect nicknamed al-Kanadi, Arabic for "the Canadian."

The father, known to global intelligence agencies as a close associate of Osama bin Laden, was a hunted man, once suspected of financing a bombing that killed 17 people. He fled Afghanistan with Taliban and al-Qaeda leaders as the United States invaded in 2001.

Last October, Pakistani agents caught up with Mr. Khadr, who kept Karim around to help him because he‘d been hobbled by a land mine 10 years earlier. Now, Karim has crippling injuries of his own, and his 57-year-old father is dead.

The boy said he was walking to a stream about 500 metres from his mud hut with his 16-year-old friend, Khalid. Without warning, a bullet struck.

"I was just walking, and they shot me from behind," he said. "My back."

He waited out the ensuing battle lying on the ground, conscious but bleeding, and watched as two helicopter gunships attacked the hut, killing his father and seven other militants.

Later, in hospital, Karim was shown pictures of the corpses, and identified his father as one of the dead.

Thus ended one long chapter of the Khadr family history. Another has now begun with the return of Karim and his mother.

This week, the name Khadr was once again on everyone‘s lips, and once again straining the limits of Canadian tolerance.

Since Karim‘s mother, Maha Elsamnah, and one of her daughters defended al-Qaeda and attacked Canadian values on national TV last month, the outrage has climbed from the grassroots to the highest political levels.

Almost 10,000 irate Canadians have signed an on-line petition demanding the family be kicked out of the country. The outcry put the Prime Minister and Ontario Premier on the defensive as they explained the family‘s rights to citizenship and health care. A Liberal MP is demanding that Ms. Elsamnah be charged under the anti-terrorism act.

But an opposite reaction has greeted the storm of protest. Yesterday, at the Salaheddin mosque near the Khadr home, Karim‘s grandfather was among the hundreds who gathered for Friday prayers. Two men, recently released after being detained for murky reasons in the Middle East, were also there.

Ahmad Abou El-Maati is a 39-year-old truck driver who was jailed for two years in Syria and Egypt. Helmy Elsherief had worked with the Afghanistan charities in which Ahmed Said Khadr was involved, before Egyptian authorities held him for three weeks. Neither man wanted to discuss the detentions, which seemed to be based on Canadian intelligence tips.

In his sermon, Imam Aly Hindy told the faithful that the senior Mr. Khadr may or may not have been a terrorist, but that it‘s now for God to judge.

As for the rest of the immediate family, "these people have extreme views," he conceded. "But who said if you have extreme views you should be kicked out?"

The imam said Muslims pay taxes and probably require fewer social services than non-Muslims because they eschew activities such as drinking, promiscuity and homosexual relationships. Then he spoke of the mercy between spouses, between brothers, even between animals.

"Even the lion mother might be very merciful to her child," he told the congregation.

Karim‘s mother, who now carries her teenaged son room to room like a toddler, is unrepentant. "I‘m Canadian, and I‘m not begging for my rights; I‘m demanding my rights," Ms. Elsamnah said yesterday.

Kneeling beside her boy, she said she has applied for Ontario hospital insurance, but since there is a three-month residency requirement, she doesn‘t know how she‘ll pay for the treatment he needs right away.

"Feel his spine," she said. She pointed out the entry wound on his back, the exit wound on his abdomen and the long scar that runs down from his sternum.

His calf muscles are disappearing from lack of use. "I can move them a little bit," Karim said, as he made a tiny movement.

The teenager‘s internal injuries keep him from eating much; he has lost a lot of weight and is easy for his mother to lift. Painkillers don‘t seem to work as they once did. He is irritable and can‘t sleep.

It‘s spring outside, and while children play at the Catholic school nearby, Karim sits inside and watches movies. His mother doesn‘t always like his predilection for adventure films.

"Yesterday he was watching Kill Bill. I hated it ..... it‘s one person killing hundreds of people," said Ms. Elsamnah, complaining about the blood. "I liked Lord of the Kings," she added, mispronouncing the movie‘s title, "because it‘s fighting for justice. I love that."

Ms. Elsamnah said she sees the hobbits as valiant warriors locked in a struggle against an evil, imperialistic power. For her, that power resembles the United States.

A figure of immense controversy, Ms. Elsamnah said she is clear in her conscience, safe in her citizenship and faithful to her God. She defends the family‘s decision to move to Afghanistan years ago and insists she and her husband were always charity workers, that Afghan training camps were good places for her sons to learn discipline.

And though she was friends with the wives of Osama bin Laden and his deputy Ayman al-Zawahiri, she still insists she was never very close to al-Qaeda. "I disagree with some of what they do. ..... I hate bloodshed because I‘ve seen so much of it," she said. "I hope it‘s over soon â ” in Iraq, in Afghanistan and in Palestine."

She has denounced Canada‘s liberal social values, but the Palestinian woman insists she is proud of her 30 years as a Canadian citizen, except when her country blindly follows the United States. "You want to be a friend to a devil?" she asked.

Last week, she and Karim came to Canada after having fought to obtain special, single-use passports. Canadian High Commission officials were initially a little "nasty," but in the end were "very nice," she said. She hopes to see the rest of her children back in Canada soon.

Always a mother, she remembered her sons as young boys. Abdullah, now a 23-year-old fugitive in Pakistan, was the quiet one. Omar, the wounded 17-year-old in Guantanamo Bay who U.S. soldiers say killed one of their own during a raid in Afghanistan, was the disciplined one. Abdurahman, the 21-year-old who also spent a year in Cuba before going to work as a U.S. spy, was the rebellious one. She worries about him. "He‘s not bad, just different," she said.

And Karim? Six months ago, her youngest son could be a difficult boy who never did his chores and wanted to be the boss. Now, his demeanour has changed so much. Remembering the Pakistani helicopter gunships, his face darkens whenever he hears an airplane.

Maha Elsamanah sat down to a lunch of smoked salmon at her parents‘ house this week. She thought of her late husband: It was his favourite dish. She said he is a martyr for Islam and hopes that in the afterlife, they will be together again.

"It was not planned this way, but God willed it this way," she said of the turmoil her family has faced. "You can‘t blame me if we tried our best
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jarnhamar on April 17, 2004, 17:21:00
Thats awesome...

I consider my family  "Canadian".

I‘m in the military.
I have a cousin who was in the first gulf war
My uncle served in korea.
My grandfather world war 2.
My grand fathers father served in ww1.
I even have a relitive who served with the british empire (Empire loyalists i believe?) during the late 1700s.

Little bit of military service in my family. I don‘t think someone needs to serve time in the military to be considered canadian by any means. Lots of people contribute to this country.
My little brother has to wait months to get an MRI for his back. (Or he can go to quebec and pay out of his pocket to get it done).
This woman is demanding her rights? What gives her that right? Shes a "citizen"? My ***.
I don‘t see this family as having contributed anything.
But they are citizens!
Well as much as i hate to agree infront of my peers here, i agree. A citizen should be entitled to everything the next citizen is. I mean we have child rapists and murderers who have done far worse things than this little boy and they are sitting in comfy jails getting steaks on friday reading playboys and getting free condoms for their cell mates.

Maybe the real thing to consider  here is that its too eazy to be a citizen. Were giving away so much. Why?
We should make being a citizen something important, something to work for and not just bennifit from.  (Yes thats the same idea from star ship troopers but i think its an excellent idea)

Its US who are paying for the health care, lawyers and welfare checks of these bottom feeders. If they are so proud of being a citizen, make them do something for it.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on April 17, 2004, 18:13:00
The sheer arogance is really starting to piss me off.  The boy is claiming he was just walking across to a stream and the "without warning a bullet struck".  Right and then exactly after that, that is when the battle started.  It is just mind bogling that this was allowed to happen.  We can only hope that this scandal along with adscam, will finally stick to the Fiberals and a Conserative government will have the guts to strengthen our horrid immigration systems and charge these f|_|ckers with treason and terrorism.
Burn them all. I am close to finding out were they live.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Marauder on April 17, 2004, 19:46:00
Must... control... fist...of ... death...

I would encourage eveyone to write/contact their MP, and for my fellow Ontartio residents, contact your MPP and start writing (professional) nastygrams to Dalton (The Dolt) McGuinty. This bullshit is so past unsat as to be out in fantasy land. Something NEEDS to be done.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on April 20, 2004, 03:11:00
I‘m so disgusted with these "people".

I got a message back from my MPP saying he wants to talk to me in person so can I please give him my home address and phone number!...

Yah, that‘l happen. NOT!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bill Smy on April 21, 2004, 18:20:00
Wed, April 21, 2004

We‘re giving comfort to the enemy

By PETER WORTHINGTON -- For the Toronto Sun

 


WHAT TO do about the Khadr family?

Probably nothing.

The fact that they are all al-Qaida supporters cuts no ice with those who feel a person‘s (or family‘s) beliefs shouldn‘t affect their citizenship.

In theory this is fine. But it hardly works in practice.

Canada doesn‘t want nasty nutbar Ernst Zundel to keep his citizenship because he believes Hitler was a good guy and the Holocaust didn‘t happen.

Canada‘s immigration department wants a handful of aging Ukrainians stripped of their citizenship and deported because as teenagers they were forced to work for Nazi auxiliaries in World War II.

The Khadr family‘s involvement with al-Qaida is somewhat more than mere "beliefs," and has extended to participation, and working for them.

Al-Qaida is an enemy of Canada. While we, as a country, opted not to go to war against Saddam Hussein, we did join the war against al-Qaida in Afghanistan.

The issue of tolerating the Khadr family as citizens is more complex than tolerating dissenters. Al-Qaida killed Canadians who worked in the World Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001.

Still, the Khadr family has benefited more than most from their Canadian citizenship. The father, Ahmed Khadr, was rescued from a Pakistan jail, where he was confined for suspected terrorist activities, owing to the personal intervention of then prime minister Jean Chretien.

Ahmed was later killed when Pakistani troops attacked suspected terrorists. His son, also an al-Qaida fighter, was killed. Another Khadr kid, Karim, was slated to be a suicide bomber until he was shot and paralyzed. He‘s now in Canada getting medical treatment. The Children‘s Aid Society is reportedly checking to determine if it is a form of child abuse to encourage your kid to be a suicide bomber.

Another Khadr son, Omar, is being held in Guantanamo Bay, suspected of killing a U.S. medic while fighting with al-Qaida.

Son Abdurahman apparently agreed to be a spy inside al-

Qaida after he was caught by the Americans, thus earning the enmity of his mother and sister.

The mother, Maha Elsamnah, seems a piece of work, too, saying she‘s lived 30 years as a Canadian and was quoted in a Globe and Mail interview saying, "I‘m not begging for my rights; I‘m demanding my rights."

The reaction of many Canadians is "beg away, lady, we don‘t want you."

The arrogance and intransigence of the Khadrs is as awesome as it is infuriating.

Reaction in letters and radio talk shows indicates Canadians are more upset than somewhat.

On CBC radio‘s Cross-Canada Checkup last Sunday, predictable academics and civil libertarian worry-warts said revoking the Khadr family‘s citizenship would be a mistake and show Canada as an intolerant country.

This is nonsense, of course.

Accepting an immigrant as a citizen implies -- or should imply -- certain values and responsibilities.

We often bend to accommodate newcomers and lose sight of our existing culture. No question, immigrants have added much to our culture. Most become valuable citizens.

But those who bring a gun culture to our streets, or settle arguments with shootouts, or wage turf wars over drug distribution, are not the sort we should show much tolerance towards.

The same goes for those who actively support or indulge in terrorist activities. As for al-Qaida, it is a terrorist organization that directly or indirectly has resulted in Canadians being killed.

Simple belief in al-Qaida, or any cult, is far different from joining the enemy to destabilize the prevailing ethic. Or to advance a creed that seeks the destruction of others on religious grounds.

A case can be made that the Khadr family are unworthy of Canada and have earned the right to have their citizenship revoked.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: absent_element on April 22, 2004, 08:30:00
Hats off to Mr. Peter Worthington.

"On CBC radio‘s Cross-Canada Checkup last Sunday, predictable academics and civil libertarian worry-warts said revoking the Khadr family‘s citizenship would be a mistake and show Canada as an intolerant country."

That‘s a problem there Canada is too tolerant of country.
We have to start placing greater restrictions on who can come here and set up house.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on April 22, 2004, 09:31:00
A line as to be drawn somewhere, and an example must be sent. I hope that the government listens to the people (for once).

Cheers,

Wes
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Michael Dorosh on April 22, 2004, 11:33:00
Quote
Originally posted by Slim:
[qb] I‘m so disgusted with these "people".

I got a message back from my MPP saying he wants to talk to me in person so can I please give him my home address and phone number!...

Yah, that‘l happen. NOT! [/qb]
So you talk the talk but when you get the real opportunity to do something, you turn yellow.  Nice.  Guess I know how much your posts are worth.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Rider Pride on April 22, 2004, 11:48:00
My feelings are no different then the rest of you, but...

If she is a citizen of this country then she is entitled to those benifit within the law. I feel that while the family is here, and up until the day the gov‘t pulls thier citizenship (if they can) then the young lad should get the same medical care the rest of us enjoy (or hate either way). We do have much worse people in this country, people who I would rather get rid of before the Khadr family.

As misguided in our minds thier beliefs are...you do have to respect them for thier convictions.

And one burning question I do have is...

Is Mrs Khadr a leafs fan?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: absent_element on April 22, 2004, 13:01:00
I know your probably just joking. But, I have absolutely ZERO respect for those people (terrorists and/or their supporters) they‘re all the same to me.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jarnhamar on April 22, 2004, 13:07:00
"So you talk the talk but when you get the real opportunity to do something, you turn yellow. Nice. Guess I know how much your posts are worth."

Reference the petition going around. If a soldier signed it, used their real name and stated they were a soldier could that hypothecially come back to bite them in the ***?  I assume that would be under soldiers not being allowed to sign petitions?
 

Canada is like the the little kid on the block who will do or say anything to get everyone to like him unfortinuatly.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: nbk on April 22, 2004, 16:09:00
I‘m suprised you got a response from your MP, old Dalton has never responded to anything I wrote him. I hate him.

And also Armymedic, I heard Mrs Khadr is a Sens fan, and that is the real reason everyone wants her out.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Northern Touch on April 23, 2004, 10:42:00
Actually, I believe that Khadr petition has been taking down, since I cna‘t access it anymore.  While searching for it on the website, I came across this one.

 http://www.petitiononline.com/pkm/petition.html

To:  Prime Minister Paul Martin

The recent alarming increase in the number of acts of racism and hate across Canada causes us a great deal of concern. There is currently an online petition to strip of their Canadian citizenship and deport members of the Khadr family. We feel that this petition is racist and hateful. We find the nation-wide media attention that this petition has garnered to be both dissappointing and disturbing. We therefore respectfully request that you use your awesome power as Prime Minister to undertake the following solutions to the problem:

1) Immediately strip of their citizenship and deport the creator(s) of the online petition to deport the Khadr family.

2) Promptly strip of their citizenship and deport every Canadian who signed the above mentioned petition.

3) As quickly as possible strip of their citizenship and deport federal MP Stockwell Day, Ontario MPP Bob Runciman, and any other politician or public figure that supports denying Canadian citizens their rights.

4) Enact legislation which makes acts of racism and hate punishable by deportation.

We appreciate your timely attention to these urgent and serious matters.

Sincerely,

The Undersigned


---------------------------------------------------

Maybe we can start another petition to deport those who want to deport those who want to deport the Khadrs.  Round and round we go.

I‘ve written my MP and I never got a reply.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jarnhamar on April 23, 2004, 12:12:00
Welldone to whoever wrote that.
Looks to me 75% of the people who signed it were for kicking the family out and are upset the initial poll was taken down. That and it‘s turning into a he said she said match. "i disagree with what poster number 40 said. Well i think poster number 67 is a terrorist bla bla bla"

idiots.

This fromthe petition
67. j. Dyer Brown....I‘ll get you....I have guns.....know where you live....really!....uh...will also post your address.....really..... Sharing a cell with Paul Bernardo not really
66. Peter Peter 65 is phony balogny, and chews his own balogny. Alberta U.S.
65. Peter #59 Peter #62 is a phony baloney
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on April 24, 2004, 01:59:00
Quote
Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
So you talk the talk but when you get the real opportunity to do something, you turn yellow.  Nice.  Guess I know how much your posts are worth. [/QB]
Sorry for not responding to this Mike. I missed your post and another member was kind enough to point it out to me.

Perhaps I should have explained myself more fully.

I wrote to my MPP explaining why I objected to that family remaining in Canada after saying and doing what they have.

My MPP‘s office (not the man himself) have repeatedly  sent me e-mails asking for my Name, address, phone number and a brief personal history.

They had the ability to respond to me through my e-mail, but declined to do so. (it is an anonymous one)

I do NOT want my MPP to have all kinds of personal information about me as they have been known to abuse that information in the past. ( I know in the past you have requested proof of statements like that. I have a specific event in mind and will do my best to dig it up for you.)

My employment requires that I remain low key. I repeatedly requested that the MPP respond by e-mail (which would have been fine.) He didn‘t want to do that.If his office had a defense for the governments actions I would have been happy to read any letter he sent and respond in kind...Why, I wonder, was that not acceptable to him?!

Finally, Mike, You and I have exchanged posts in the past and I have always respected your opinion and readily admitted when I made a mistake.

I don‘t think that the above post was appropriate and am surprised that it was you who made it.

Please feel free to PM me if you wish to discuss this further. I would be quite happy to answer any question (within reason) that you may have.

Slim
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bill Smy on April 24, 2004, 04:50:00
This family just does not get it!   :mad:  

Abdurahman Khadr‘s Canadian passport refused
CTV.ca News Staff

Abdurahman Khadr, the son of an alleged associate and financier of Osama bin Laden, has been refused a Canadian passport.

Khadr, 21, was informed earlier this week that his request had been denied 11 days after completing his application.

He said he wants Canada to be his permanent home but wants to the freedom to travel.

While no details were given for why his request was turned down, the National Post is reporting his link to al Qaeda was a factor.

Khadr‘s mother Elsamnah, and sister Zaynab, have been placed on a passport control list for repeatedly losing their passports and requesting replacements.

Khadr has admitted attending a training camp in Afghanistan. He was detained by the United States, and returned to Toronto in December after a year-long stay at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

He claimed U.S. authorities took all of his travel documents and dropped him off in Afghanistan to fend for himself.

Months later however, he said he lied and was actually working as an undercover agent for the CIA.

The rights of the Khadr family have been a hot topic in Canada since the return of Abdurahman‘s mother and 14-year-old brother Karim this month from Pakistan.

Karim was wounded and left paralyzed after a gunfight in October, and is now in Toronto seeking medical treatment.

Elsamnah admitted her family‘s links to al Qaeda and bin Laden during a CBC television documentary, but has since denied their involvement.

An online petition to have the Khadr family stripped of their Canadian citizenship has attracted more than 10,000 signatures.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on April 24, 2004, 07:08:00
Wounded and left paralised! And guess who‘s gonna foot the years of bills for his medical treatment, wheel chairs, etc for his duration.? The taxpayers of Canada, along with the welfare cheques too.

They are just parasites, like the great Australian paralising tick, who sucks from its host (farm animals and domestic pets)until they die. In this case they suck the life out of the Canadian welfare system as much as they can.

I say, lead by example and show not only Canadians, but the world that Canada is not a softy on terrorist trash like this.

Its a national disgrace.

BTW Slim, the ‘finance nazi‘ had a go at me too, and behaved rather inappropiate.

Its suprising, as some of his posts were quite well in the past, but lately he has been very unnecessarily critical towards some.

Not even a small ‘sorry‘(not that that would have mattered, but there are such things as ‘basic‘ manners), but carries on in arrogance as if he owns the place. so, I would not take any critisism from him seriously, and take what he says to a mininum.

Regards,

Wes
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Rick_Donald on April 30, 2004, 13:47:00
Most so called Canadians have adopted an attitude that as long as they don‘t have to live next door to the Khadr‘s and the rest of their infidel hating ilk they don‘t care and only want to get back to their big screen TV‘s, drive to the mall in one of their SUV‘s and buy another useless overpriced toy. When the Al Queda start blowing up Canadian institutions than maybe these techno drunken limp wristed lefties will wake up.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: absent_element on May 01, 2004, 10:07:00
hmm...from what I‘ve seen and heard a helluva lot of Canadians are outraged over this.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Rick_Donald on May 01, 2004, 10:35:00
Well we‘ll see if that is reflected in the next election, won‘t we.
What I mean is that if Canadians are outraged over this than they‘ll have to do more than ***** about it over the water cooler.
This is only one more unethical act carried out by this and the former government yet these criminals in Ottawa are still walking around calling the shots.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Paul F on May 01, 2004, 10:47:00
The Pakistani forces should have just finished off the little ******* when they had the chance in Waziristan. Now we are paying for it bigtime with all his medical bills, while his mother and brother drain the very social programs they denounce and continue spewing their hatred for the USA. But now with the mother wanting to meet her husband in the afterlife, why don‘t we just speed up the process for the whole family?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: mattoigta on May 20, 2004, 23:11:00
So, I finally got a response back from my MP regarding the Khadr issue, here it is:

Julian Reed, M.P. Halton
May 12,2004

Dear Mr. Scarlino:
Thank you for your recent communication regarding the Khadr issue.
First of all, I must remind you that the Khadr family are Canadian citizens and as such must face Canadian justice. If in fact they are terrorists or espousing terrorism, that will be exposed through ourjustice system. We would not be able to lay charges if they were away in another country.
We have to get a message out to those people who would do us harm that being a Canadian citizen is not a ‘citizenship of convenience‘.
Currently as I understand it, there are two investigations underway and you must allow some time for the facts to emerge. Canada is a very special place. We respect the rule of law and the presumption of innocence. We definitely do not support Al Queda or anything resembling it. In fact Canada as we speak is at war with terrorism so please allow the justice system to play itself out
I realize this issue is very emotional and it‘s easy to ‘knee jerk‘ but as a Member of Parliament, I must take a firm but balanced view. Justice will prevail.
Sincerely,
Julian Reed, M.P. Halton
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on May 21, 2004, 03:59:00
Pollyspeak, which means nothing. A whole letter which just babbles on. Another gutless polly.

Cheers,

Wes

PS No matter where you are all pollys are liars, they kiss babys,and promise you the world til they are elected.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Northern Touch on May 21, 2004, 10:39:00
Quote
Originally posted by Scarlino:
[qb]
We have to get a message out to those people who would do us harm that being a Canadian citizen is not a ‘citizenship of convenience‘.
 [/qb]
I still don‘t get it.  A family with KNOWN terrorist ties can get a citizenship, but a WWII Veteran, who fought for Canada can‘t get one to return to his home country to visit.  (sorry can‘t find the story now, it was posted on this site ,or another one).
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on May 22, 2004, 14:18:00
Quote
Originally posted by Scarlino:
[qb]
Currently as I understand it, there are two investigations underway and you must allow some time for the facts to emerge.[/qb]
I‘m guessing nothing will come from those investigations.  :threat:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: absent_element on May 22, 2004, 18:19:00
Quote
Originally posted by Northern Touch:
[qb]
I still don‘t get it.  A family with KNOWN terrorist ties can get a citizenship, but a WWII Veteran, who fought for Canada can‘t get one to return to his home country to visit.  (sorry can‘t find the story now, it was posted on this site ,or another one). [/qb][/QUOTE]

Weird about that eh?   :confused:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Figure11 on May 24, 2004, 11:46:00
Pathetic. Political Correctness gone haywire.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: George Wallace on May 24, 2004, 12:11:00
Quote
Originally posted by Scarlino:
[qb]

... Canada is a very special place...

 Sincerely,
Julian Reed, M.P. Halton [/qb]
Gee!  Now I feel like one of "Jerry‘s Kids".   :(  

GW
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: kiltedtradesman on May 25, 2004, 21:03:00
As an MP, he has to take a "firm but balanced view".  I agree with that.  If you want the Khadr family out, and out for good, then you must be patient and let the justice system do it‘s job.  If we don‘t have faith in justice, then we will have nothing left to protect our way of life.

However, the Hon. Julian Reed now has 34 days to give you the answer you want, or you can vote his *** out of there.


      :mg:          Al Queda
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on March 19, 2004, 21:36:00
http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=1076769c-4151-4ea7-a402-53ce7e49f6e2

Khadr pleads for Ottawa to aid brother in Pakistan despite terrorist ties
 
COLIN PERKEL
Canadian Press

Friday, March 19, 2004
 
Abdurahman Khadr Toronto Friday. Canadian Press/Aaron Harris
 
ADVERTISEMENT
 
 
 
TORONTO -- A Canadian whose family has strong ties to the al-Qaida terrorist network pleaded with the federal government Friday to help his paralysed 14-year-old brother return to Canada from Pakistan.

Abdurahman Khadr, 21, described his brother Karim, who was badly injured in a clash with security forces that killed their father, as an innocent victim.

"As a child, forget what his father or his mother thinks," Khadr said at a news conference.

"As just a child, a Canadian child, I think he needs help."

Karim has been in a hospital in Pakistan since the shootout last October.

Khadr, who lives in Toronto, also pleaded with the Canadian government to ensure his mother and sister, who have expressed sympathy for al-Qaida, are able to return from Pakistan.

He said he worries they are under the spell of Muslim extremists and need to be away from them.

The Canadian government has denied them passports because they have repeatedly lost previous ones.

"My mother and my sister, they haven‘t done anything and I‘m trying to save them before they do something," he said, noting they may try to travel illegally.

"That‘s why I want them to come back to Canada - to be away from that influence of al-Qaida."

Khadr‘s 17-year-old brother Omar is still under American detention in Guantanamo Bay.

He said Oman should be tried here in Canada.

"What I‘m saying is, give them a chance to come back to Canada," Khadr said.

Last year, Khadr raised eyebrows with a story that he was arrested by U.S. forces in Afghanistan, imprisoned in Guantanamo Bay on suspicions of being a terrorist and then dumped without documents in Afghanistan.

He later said he had lied, and in fact had been working undercover with the CIA that whole time.

In a recent television documentary, members of his family admitted to being involved with and sympathetic to al-Qaida.

Khadr, however, said he firmly rejected the hatred generated by Muslim extremists.


-


Some facts:

Abdullah Khadr: Age 23. Whereabouts unknown but believed to be somewhere in Afghanistan.

Omar Khadr: Age 17. Held almost two years by the Americans in Guantanamo Bay.

Karim Khadr: Age 14. In hospital in Rawalpindi, Pakistan. Paralysed from the waist down in shootout with security forces last October.

Abdurahman Khadr: Age 21. Lives in Toronto. Returned to Canada last fall.

Zaynab Khadr (sister) and Maha Elsamna (mother): Living in Islamabad. Have previously refused assistance to return to Canada.
--------------------------------------------------

C‘mon right in folks.  Terrorist ties shmerrorist ties.

  :mad:     :mad:     :mad:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Xfire on March 19, 2004, 22:26:00
i say dont let him in for security reasons and i think our governmet should hand over mr.Khadr to the US so they can deal with him because knowing Canada there not going to do anything about it.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: smoky on March 19, 2004, 22:32:00
are we forgetting something  the kids 14 years old??   and paralysed let him in and teach him another way of life just a thought
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on March 20, 2004, 00:36:00
Smoky ever heard of providing "aid and comfort to the enemy in a time of war" you know thats treasonous right? He was shooting at Americans (our allies remember, and the could have just as easily been Canadians they were shooting at.) I say the soldier who shot him needs to work on his aim. It‘s supposed to be a double tap in the centre of mass to ensure the person is dead.  This is ridiculous, and is another reason why Canada should stop allowing it‘s citizens from having dual nationalities.  You pick one or the other, and if you choose to have Canadian citizenship, you are a CANADIAN all the time. Not when it is best for you, or so you can have access to the benefits the rest of us enjoy. Let em all rot.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jarnhamar on March 20, 2004, 11:28:00
I don‘t think we should let him in, especially considering his actions BUT i think your wrong when it comes to providing aid to the enemy. Once someone is a casualty or surrenders they are no longer a combatent and have to be provided for. Given water food sleep and protection from harm.

Anyone can help out a wounded friend it takes a man to help out a wounded enemy. Thats where professionalisim comes in.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Redeye on March 20, 2004, 15:45:00
My wonder is what facilities are available to legally strip the Khadr family - or at least those known to have been involved in activities contrary to the national interest of Canada - of their Canadian citizenship, thus removing any concern for their welfare from Canadians.

I‘m going to disagree with you, Falcon, about dual citizenship.  Even states which don‘t allow dual citizenship technically cannot force someone to give up another citizenship, and if they could, what would it really matter?  The vast majority of persons holding two or more citizenships in this country do so out of convenience to maintain ties to family abroad, not to further illegitimate aims like the Khadrs seem to.

You say that this is "another reason" to ban dual citizenship.  What other reasons are there?  I can‘t think of any, and I‘d be more than a little offended if the Canadian government tried to tell me I had to renounce my British citizenship and give up my passport just to maintain Canadian citizenship.  I‘m a citizen of both countries with great pride, and bear true allegiance to both.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Corro on March 21, 2004, 10:15:00
The people who shouldn‘t be allowed back in the country are this kids‘ mother, sister and older brother (the one the Pakistanis, CJTF, etc. are all looking for). Mom and sis, who cheerfully told CBC how much they hated the West, nonetheless want to bring the kid back to Canada to get access to our medical system. Big brother is seriously connected to al-Qaeda and the Taliban and can hope for nothing more than a one-way trip to Guantanamo Bay.
Since the mother and sister reportedly "lost" their Canadian passports (which presumably means "sold" or "donated to al-Qaeda") they should be refused new ones.
Or maybe Jean Chretien will intervene on their behalf ... again.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on March 22, 2004, 11:09:00
I just finished reading "The Hunt For Bin Laden: Task Force Dagger" By Robin Moore.  

Near the end it has approx. two pages about daddy Khadr.  He was on Task Force Dagger‘s top 10 target list, because of his close relationship to Osama.  This is the guy Crouton got out of a pakistani prison because he was a Canadian.   :confused:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: tmbluesbflat on March 23, 2004, 04:36:00
Canada has an obligation under law to give aid and etc to holders of Canadian citizenship. Only after under going a trial and been found guilty of serious crime, can any thing  be done. We have murderers amongst us that at 13 or 14 were declared juveniles etc. and sentenced to a few months in a holiday camp, until we take our rights and freedoms seriously we have no case to argue.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on March 23, 2004, 12:41:00
But you can‘t abuse that, by being a terrorist in a foreign country, and then wanting to get back to canada when you are injured in a gunfight.  These people should all be stripped of their citizenship.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Rider Pride on February 09, 2005, 16:18:47
My thoughts are below...

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1107973642723_89/?hub=Canada

Khadr teen tortured in Guantanamo Bay: lawyer
Canadian Press

TORONTO â ” Lawyers for a Canadian teenager held by American authorities in Guantanamo Bay say Ottawa has been complicit in his alleged abuse by failing to speak out against his treatment.

They also said Canadian diplomatic efforts to bring Omar Khadr home from the U.S. prison camp in Cuba have failed miserably.

The Toronto-born 18-year-old, whose late father was a close associate of al Qaida terrorist leader Osama bin Laden, was arrested by American military forces in Afghanistan almost three years ago after he allegedly killed a U.S. soldier.

"Omar is abandoned in a legal black hole beyond the rule of law by a lawless U.S. administration,'' Dennis Edney, Khadr's Canadian lawyer, told a news conference Wednesday.

"And the Canadian government participates in that violation by allowing its officials and its agents to participate in interrogating Omar.''

Edney said federal documents show officials from Foreign Affairs, RCMP and Canadian security agents have all been to the prison to question Khadr.

The lawyers allege that information is being shared with American agents.

"The tragedy and the sadness of this is that, at first, Omar Khadr thought they had come to take him home, only to be told, `We're not here to help you, we only want information','' Edney said.

Dan McTeague, the parliamentary secretary to Foreign Affairs Minister Pierre Pettigrew, said Ottawa "had been vocal about this issue'' and was doing everything it could to ensure Khadr was properly treated.

McTeague acknowledged that Canada had failed to win consular access to Khadr.

"I realize that the Americans are treating the consular issue with all nations in a very, very steadfast way,'' McTeague said from Ottawa.

"But I believe that that doesn't detract from our demand that we be given an opportunity to see him and to ensure that his treatment is consistent with international conventions.''

Believed to be the youngest of 550 "enemy combatants'' held at Guantanamo Bay, Khadr is accused of planting mines aimed at U.S. convoys. The U.S. military also accuses him of killing an American army medic with a grenade. U.S. forces shot and badly wounded him.

No charges have yet been filed against him.

While the U.S. military says it does not condone mistreatment of detainees, Khadr's American lawyer said he uncovered a litany of abuses during four days of talks with Khadr in November.

He said Khadr was shackled in several painful positions for lengthy periods and threats of rape were made against him.

Khadr was also used as a "human mop'' after he had urinated on the floor during one interrogation session, the lawyer said.

"One of Canada's children has been tortured by the United States
,'' said Muneer Ahmad, a lawyer at American University in Washington, D.C.

"The physical and mental abuse that Omar Khadr has received is horrific, it's immoral and it's illegal.''

The lawyers want Canada to insist that the U.S. allow consular officials and his Canadian lawyers to visit Khadr and that Ottawa be outspoken in demanding assurances he will not be executed.

They also called on the federal government to press the United Nations to conduct an independent inquiry into the allegations of torture at Guantanamo Bay documented by, among others, the International Red Cross.

The U.S. Justice Department is investigating several allegations of abuse at the prison.

"Canadian diplomatic efforts to date have been a spectacular failure,'' said Edney.

"We ask Canada not to hide behind its so-called `silent diplomacy' but be outspoken in his defence and insist that the U.S. comply with its international obligations.''

In a statement, Khadr's mother Maha Elsamnah Khadr called on Canadians to put pressure on Ottawa to do more for her son.

"As a mother, I beg every Canadian mother and father to help me get justice for my son and bring him home,'' Elsamnah Khadr said.

"The Canadian government has done nothing to help my son, so I'm asking all Canadian mothers and fathers to push Canada to speak for him.''

Khadr is one of four Canadian sons of Ahmed Khadr, who died in a shootout with Pakistani forces in Pakistan in 2003 in which the youngest brother Karim, then 14, was shot and paralysed. Karim returned to Canada last year after his family went public with his plight.

Another brother, Abdurahman, was released from Guantanamo Bay after he worked for U.S. intelligence and also lives in Canada.

 :skull: :skull: :skull:

Bloody WHAAA!!! He should be glad they didn't do another double tap to the back of his head when they found his broken wounded body on the field....

Quote
Khadr is accused of planting mines aimed at U.S. convoys. The U.S. military also accuses him of killing an American army medic with a grenade. U.S. forces shot and badly wounded him.

....as opposed to the coup de grace he would surely give to any of the soldiers of the great infidel found wounded before him.


Quote
One of Canada's children has been tortured by the United States


If he's one of Canada's children, why is he overseas learning the ways of those who wish to destroy the ways of life in the western Christian Democratic countries. (just because your born here doesn't automatically mean you are Canadian)

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: JasonH on February 09, 2005, 16:38:01
Fully agree!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: big bad john (John Hill) on February 09, 2005, 16:52:03
If you blatantly tortures the enemy, you definitely achieve two things: 1) You lower yourself.
2) You open the door to the enemy doing the same to your troops.

This is not a good thing when an Army breaks its own laws.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Glorified Ape on February 09, 2005, 16:55:42
If you blatantly tortures the enemy, you definitely achieve two things: 1) You lower yourself.
2) You open the door to the enemy doing the same to your troops.

This is not a good thing when an Army breaks its own laws.

Hear hear.

Hard to condemn the savagery of others when one's busy engaging in it... or espousing it.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Gumby on February 09, 2005, 16:58:54
Lets see how his family cries when we show them what "tortures" are being done to coalition troops and other allies in captivity.   Eg: They CUT people's friggin HEAD'S off!!!!

I don't really agree with what has been done to him, but I've never been in that position.   I totally disagree with this whole bleeding hearts, everybody feel sorry for the little victim thing.   He went to a terrorist country to do .. whatever.  He knew what he was getting into.  He was captured in COMBAT fighting against the coalition.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Horse_Soldier on February 09, 2005, 17:04:21
Lets see how his family cries when we show them what "tortures" are being done to coalition troops and other allies in captivity.   Eg: They CUT people's friggin HEAD'S off!!!!

I don't really agree with what has been done to him, but I've never been in that position.   I totally disagree with this whole bleeding hearts, everybody feel sorry for the little victim thing.   He went to a terrorist country to do .. whatever.   He knew what he was getting into.   He was captured in COMBAT fighting against the coalition.
There is a distinction between being captured in combat and detained according to the Geneva Convention - and torture.   "Bleeding hearts" aside, treating enemy prisoners in a degrading manner degrades the claims we hold to being "better" than the Islamist barbarians who mistreat and murder ours.   The fact that we should not shed a tear for his being detained as an enemy combatant is a separate issue - and no, he does not deserve any sympathy nor does he deserve any effort to release him from Guantanamo - but torture goes over the line.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: big bad john (John Hill) on February 09, 2005, 17:12:16
Lets see how his family cries when we show them what "tortures" are being done to coalition troops and other allies in captivity.   Eg: They CUT people's friggin HEAD'S off!!!!

I don't really agree with what has been done to him, but I've never been in that position.   I totally disagree with this whole bleeding hearts, everybody feel sorry for the little victim thing.   He went to a terrorist country to do .. whatever.   He knew what he was getting into.   He was captured in COMBAT fighting against the coalition.

Point 1) Beheading is the normal method of execution in a lot of Middle Eastern countries.   They feel the way you do about hanging.   They feel that it is barbaric.

2)   So what you're saying here is that his being captured in combat against the Coalition gives the US the right to torture him?

It has been said that one mans Terr is another mans Freedomfighter.   We have condemned our enemies use of torture over the years.   So now we sink to it.   It dirties our reputations.   I am not defending the Terrs or saying torture doesn't happen on all sides in a conflict.   But trying to i]Normalize[/i] it is wrong.   There is no excuse for saying what is wrong is right.   It is the start of eroding of everyones rights I fear.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: big bad john (John Hill) on February 09, 2005, 17:13:25
There is a distinction between being captured in combat and detained according to the Geneva Convention - and torture.   "Bleeding hearts" aside, treating enemy prisoners in a degrading manner degrades the claims we hold to being "better" than the Islamist barbarians who mistreat and murder ours.   The fact that we should not shed a tear for his being detained as an enemy combatant is a separate issue - and no, he does not deserve any sympathy nor does he deserve any effort to release him from Guantanamo - but torture goes over the line.

You say much more clearly than I sir.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Britney Spears on February 09, 2005, 17:22:41
While none of us can offer much beyond speculation as to whether this fellow is actually guilty or not, the ham fisted way with which the Gitmo prisoners are being handled is only opening the door for further attacks against the US administration. None of this would have happened if charges had been laid openly against the detainees in a public court. Instead, the prisoners are denied even the privilege of knowing what the charges against them are. There is not even a pretense to justice under a closed military tribunal. For example, the  five Britons released last year (http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/story/0,13743,1166826,00.html) had spent 3 years in Gitmo before been simply released. No charges were laid, no evidence presented, nada. The 5 had simply been arrested and locked up for 3 fsuking years without even know what they were being accused of. Presumably they are not terrorists, since the British authorities simply sent all of them home after a brief questioning upon their repatriation to the UK. If this is the way the administration wants to operate, then it better be prepared for a lot of criticism.  We gave the Nazis a trial, for gods  sake, why don't these guys deserve the same?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: RangerBoy on February 09, 2005, 17:33:23
The behaviour of interrogators towards "detainees" in Gitmo, if reported accurately, is first and foremost STUPID.
Torture of any kind rarely yields any kind of useful int. The victim simply tells the torturer whatever he/she thinks they want to hear: whatever it takes to stop the torture.
I wish I could say this kind of idiocy surprises me, but given some of the plain dumb things the current administration has done in Iraq and elsewhere, sadly it doesn't...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Fishbone Jones on February 09, 2005, 17:34:24
None of us know the exact reasons, or the proof that put them there. They were captured during Ops. To speculate on "poor, misguided youth" or why people were released with no charges, is just that, speculation.

As to Khadr, we have only his pack of jackal lawyers and his word as proof of his abuse. Gimme a break. We've seen this kind of one sided fawning before. He was captured in combat, wounded while carrying out terrorist activities. Tough. Only my 00.02.

As to beheading, agreed, it is the normal way over there. However, it's usually accomplished with one swift sword stroke. Not a thirty second saw fest with an old butcher knife.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Marauder on February 09, 2005, 17:38:02
Quote
"Bleeding hearts" aside, treating enemy prisoners in a degrading manner degrades the claims we hold to being "better" than the Islamist barbarians who mistreat and murder ours.

Hate to burst your bubble, but I think we're past the notion of who's better or who's soft side is softer. We're in play to win mode, folks. The Islamists aren't out to prove a point ala the USSR saying communism (more to the point Marxism and later Stalinism) works to the exlusion of other ideologies. The enemy we are now fighting is just out to kill and subjagate anyone not already in the House of Submission. They may kill each other over doctrinal and minor theological differences, but with the white guy in the Dar al Harb, it's only SUBMIT or DIE!!! WAKE. THE. frig. UP! This is the Marines fighting kamikaze nilhists on Iwo Jima and Guadalcanal, not the Allies taking it to the Hun face to face, man to man, across Europe. You can't be the "better man" when your whole unit/country/civilisation is dead and gone!

As for the little terrorist shitstain disgracing my citizenship and yours, frig 'EM. If you're gonna play the big boy's game, you better be willing to play by the big boys's rules. I don't imagine First Sergeant Speer would get Cuban sunshine, three squares, and the right to read his chosen religous tome had he survived the grenade attack and been taken prisoner by junior's pals.

No sympathy, no retreat.

Quote
As to beheading, agreed, it is the normal way over there. However, it's usually accomplished with one swift sword stroke. Not a thirty second saw fest with an old butcher knife.
Excellent point, RecceGuy. Funny though how some don't like to make the distinction.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Gumby on February 09, 2005, 17:43:52
I didn't say I agree with it, in fact I believe I said I don't agree with them torturing him.  Obviously "what do I know" comes into effect on this one, but I don't feel sorry for him.  I don't agree with hanging people, cutting their heads off.  I do feel that it is ludicrous that the U.S. Government would hold these people for so long with out even charging them.  I agree with his case (that they should charge him or let him go) , but I don't feel sorry for him.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Infanteer on February 09, 2005, 17:49:42
Both sides are making interesting comments.  John is quite right to point out that we do ourselves no favours by reducing ourselves to wiping urine all over other people (if the allegations are true - as many like to point out, guilt must be proved).

Just a point though.  Blanket statements that state that a Gitmo prisoner is automatically innocent and is being "wronged" by being sent there are as foolish as blanket statements which assume that the US effort there is 100% successful.  These fellows aren't exactly being plucked off of the middle of the street, I am going to assume they were put there for good reason.  I remember reading somewhere that guys released from Gitmo were being found on the wrong side of Artillery strikes in Afghanistan.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: big bad john (John Hill) on February 09, 2005, 17:52:20
Perfectly true!  I personally suspect most of them are guilty as sin.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Rider Pride on February 09, 2005, 17:58:40
And we are assuming that young Khadr is telling the truth...

wheres the proof, or is this just another well orchastrated scam by his family and sympathetic lawyers?

Or are we being led to believe because at prison "A" islamic captives are being abused then they must be doing the same at Prison "B"?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Gumby on February 09, 2005, 18:01:15
And we are assuming that young Khadr is telling the truth...

wheres the proof, or is this just another well orchastrated scam by his family and sympathetic lawyers?

Or are we being led to believe because at prison "A" islamic captives are being abused then they must be doing the same at Prison "B"?

Right on, and this is exactly why the U.S. should press their charges and get on with the trial. 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Britney Spears on February 09, 2005, 18:09:26
Quote
I am going to assume they were put there for good reason.

And here in western nations we have a benchmark for good reason, its called a fair trial in a court of law.

What defence could the US administration have, when it refuses to lay charges or provide evidence that any of the detainees should even be there? If he had indeed commited those "crimes" (whatever the definition of his actions could be) then why not charge him as such and put him on trial? Omar Khadr's detention itself was illegal and a violation of human rights by any western legal tradition.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: NewCenturion on February 09, 2005, 18:14:09
People like the Khadr family use their Canadian Citizenship like I use my Costco Card..gets you into the store for all the goodies. Should we feel sorry for these individuals or that their rights are violated? I think not. What about the rights of the 3000 people in the World Trade Centre. I could care less if the guy is put in a couple of stress postions so he'll talk. People like Khadr love using our rule of law and western values of human rights against us. The ultimate insult is that they will deny these rights to others. And before you philosophers out there respond with the "If we use torture we'll be no better than them argument" just remember in their eyes we are the infidel, the great Satan and Khadr's ilk are out to kill as many of us as they can before they zoom off to paradise.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Fraz on February 09, 2005, 18:16:59
Indeed, this Khadr family seems to pop up every few months in the media, whether it was regarding the father who was killed while fighting Pakastani forces, the youngest son whom received special treatment due to his wounds suffered in combat with U.S Forces in Afghanistan.   If anyone recalls the 'special relationship' the family via the father had with Mr Bin Laden himself, or the multiple Canadian Passports that were issued to family members that went missing.... So many that in fact they have been refused new ones in recent applications.   Now the family and their lawyers want to create a media circus to discredit Cdn and U.S officials...
    I for one do not condone torture and if it comes out that any of these allegations are true, well then the appropriate steps, (ie: courts martials and jail time should follow) but, I do NOT feel sympathy for this vile excuse for a human being who tore up his Canadian citizenship the moment he left for Afghanistan and participated in attacks against the coalition (of which Canada is a part) In my mind we should be more focussed on extradition hearings against the whole bloody family in lieu of continually supporting people who's concern only rests with milking our gov't for all they can get.
 As for the situation in Gitmo, as a whole we all know that it has been a can of worms from the start. To arrest, and detain persons without charge or trial is unlawful, however, as we also all know they are not prisoners of war, but detainees who are not protected by the Geneva Convention.   If a solution is to be found why not try them in the International Criminal Court? (oops forgot... the judge's panel is predominantly anti-semitic and sympathize with numerous terrorist groups: Hamas to name one) yet the world needs to find an effective and viable solution to deal with the extremists other than just letting them rot in Cuba.   
   All in all, I'm glad that lil Khadr is in a cell in Gitmo, as opposed to planting a mine or setting an IED in an alleyway that i might happen to walk through over there...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Gumby on February 09, 2005, 18:20:09
    In my mind we should be more focussed on extradition hearings against the whole bloody family in lieu of continually supporting people who's concern only rests with milking our gov't for all they can get.
 

HEAR HEAR!!!  I agree with everything else you said too, you just said it better than I did.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Fishbone Jones on February 09, 2005, 18:24:22
I can only guess that they have some sort of "checks and balances" in place. As to what they should and shouldn't do, when I become King, I'll write them a letter. Right now, it's well and above my head. They have their reasons, I'm sure, and right now they're good enough for me. I'll be the first to agree that innocent people, since time began, have been wrongfully damned. However, in the vast majority of criminal endevours, if you get caught, you were doing something you shouldn't have. For people that like to fly planes into buildings, blow up innocent shoppers, try to upset and destroy my way of life, I have no pity or sorrow. And right now I'm willing to let the US's judgement stand on how they treat the terrorist prisoners. Not POW's or common criminals, but terrorists. If somneone is at the wrong place at the wrong time, without a good excuse, sorry about their luck. His brother is home, you'd think he could've helped his brother out. Just how I feel.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: George Wallace on February 09, 2005, 18:26:31
Like Fraz and so many others, feel no sympathy for this family.   They don't have a leg to stand on legaly as far as I am concerned.   Cries of "Innocent until proven guilty" seem to be one sided in this case.   They are crying foul about their treatment and want "Compensation".   What of the innocence of the other side?   If they demand "burden of proof" that they are involved with Terrorist Organizations, then they should also produce "burden of proof" supporting their own claims.

Personally, I'd rather see their family, complete, out of our country; along with several other Terrorist and War Lord's families.   We have them here from Somolia, Syria, Indonnesia, and God knows how many other countries, living freely amongst us, raising funds for their organizations.   Time to clean house.

GW
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Brad Sallows on February 09, 2005, 18:29:25
A lawful combatant taken PoW may be detained without any sort of trial (indeed, one would not be expected) until cessation of hostilities.  From where comes this curious idea that unlawful combatants have a lesser liability to detention without trial?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: big bad john (John Hill) on February 09, 2005, 18:31:35
The problems stem from the fact that they are denied the rights of POWs, such as visits from a Protecting Power.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on February 09, 2005, 18:31:57
As far as I am concerned even once released they are most likely to carry on where they left off.

Its just too bad they did not meet their fate on the battlefield, or now simply just conveniently disappear without a trace.

The whole lot of them are rotten.


My 2 cents,

Cheers,

Wes
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Fishbone Jones on February 09, 2005, 18:42:26
I fail to see how the terms, rights, trials, visits by Protecting Powers and POW's should be used in connection with terrorists. They're lucky to be alive. Strange there's no corresponding detention facility for the other side. Oh wait, coalition prisoners, aid workers and journalists, just get killed in front of cameras with no lawyer or trial, then the headless bodies are dumped into the rivers or tossed on the side of a road. Guess no facilities are needed afterall.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Infanteer on February 09, 2005, 18:45:20
Two debates on the same thread here:   Detainment without Trial of Individuals and Torture of said Individuals (while being detained without trial).   Lets try not to get the wires crossed.

And here in western nations we have a benchmark for good reason, its called a fair trial in a court of law.

Is it possible to charge a terrorist fighter with crimes that are only really applicable in the jurisdictional boundaries of the United States?  Obviously, this doesn't fit and extradition treaties and international agreements with Afghanistan and Syria aren't going to work either.

As well, this statement is going on the assumption that what they are committing is a specific criminal act as opposed to carrying out general and continued hostilities against an opposing force.   As Brad Sallows pointed out, PW's are not entitled to a trial.   Seeing that these characters do not fit the status of an enemy PW nor a domestic criminal makes the situation a murky one at best, which can be termed a "4th Generation War" if you buy the theory, and lines get blurred when one doesn't fit into the preconceived designations.

That being said, getting back to the main topic of the thread, I think as Professionals and as citizens of a Western Liberal democratic country, we shouldn't be so quick to jeer at the notion of torture (if the allegations of the Kahdr chap is true - his ties lead me to believe otherwise).   Interrogation is a relevent capability and needs to be maintained, but torture clearly is something that we as a society cannot condone.   We've had it outlawed for at least a couple centuries now - why it should be acceptable now is beyond me.   As I said, the situation with these detainees is murky and doesn't fit our preconceived notions of "criminal" and "PW", but if we are resorting to torture one has to question if our approach to the murkiness is the right one to take.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: big bad john (John Hill) on February 09, 2005, 18:45:38
So do we have to sink to their level?   I guess then US law is only for US citizens   and then only at the US governments discrestion?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Ghost(Banned) on February 09, 2005, 18:51:43
See what happens when you don't listen

We told you to behave but no you had to go become a terrorist and its time to face the music *******.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Fishbone Jones on February 09, 2005, 18:57:12
They are at this point alive, and I suppose somewhat well. Yes they are detained and if they go to trial it should be a military one with no civvies involved in the actual proceedings. But we're not snatching them off the street and cutting off their heads on TV. I think we're already above their level and staying there. I guess the decent thing to do would be to let them out, give them tickets to wherever they wanted to go and ask them to please not kill anymore civilians or squaddies. I hope someday they are properly tried, in the meantime, they can't hurt anyone. Including my family.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: big bad john (John Hill) on February 09, 2005, 19:01:29
The moral thing would be to treat them according to law or....pass a new law which would properly take into account how war is waged now.

Please don't misunderstand me, I have no sympathy for these Cretans.  They deserve what they are getting and more.  But we must follow the rule of law.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: NewCenturion on February 09, 2005, 19:07:56
They are at this point alive, and I suppose somewhat well. Yes they are detained and if they go to trial it should be a military one with no civvies involved in the actual proceedings. But we're not snatching them off the street and cutting off their heads on TV. I think we're already above their level and staying there. I guess the decent thing to do would be to let them out, give them tickets to wherever they wanted to go and ask them to please not kill anymore civilians or squaddies. I hope someday they are properly tried, in the meantime, they can't hurt anyone. Including my family.

Right on
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: big bad john (John Hill) on February 09, 2005, 23:29:53
I saw this quote on the home page of this site and it succinctly says what I am not eloquent enough to say.

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
- Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from Birmingham Jail, April 16, 1963


Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: NewCenturion on February 10, 2005, 00:01:37
I saw this quote on the home page of this site and it succinctly says what I am not eloquent enough to say.

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
- Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from Birmingham Jail, April 16, 1963




"Laws are inoperative in war"
- Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 B.C.): Pro Milone.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Gunnerlove on February 10, 2005, 00:13:09
It is my personal opinion that the US is trying to figure out what to do with all of the detainees. If they were to put all of them on public trial they might end up looking like fools due to a widespread lack of evidence. Or they can hang onto them and not take the risk. Welcome to a very public game of hot potato.

Torture makes very little sense especially now as no one is going to provide any good Intel years after they were taken out of any loop they may have been in.

If we surrender our morality to our fears what will remain?

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Glorified Ape on February 10, 2005, 00:39:22
So do we have to sink to their level?   I guess then US law is only for US citizens   and then only at the US governments discrestion?

Indeed. I don't like Khadr or his family and I'm sure I wouldn't be too fond of 99% of the prisoners at Gitmo but arbitrary detention without trial, charge, or evidence only demonstrates that self-righteous sermons on freedom, liberty, and justice are as hollow as they are ridiculous.

See what happens when you don't listen

We told you to behave but no you had to go become a terrorist and its time to face the music *******.

You're tough-talking a guy that can't hear you?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Sheep Dog AT on February 10, 2005, 00:41:50
There a lot of "assumptions" and "guesses" going on in this thread.   I have also heard that like in the days of slavery, opposing Muslims would sell out their neighbor for the cash reward in the early days of the war to 1) get the cash and 2) get rid of a problem which therefore results in some people going for an all expense paid trip to Cuba.   The detainees are being treated remarkably well for not even being POW and thats a fact.   Physical torture yields sketchy results at best as those having the screws but to them will tell you anything you want just to stop and that is also a fact.   Hell put me under a Chinese water torture long enough and I might start siding with Infanteer.   That said there are techniques that are being used that do provide positive results such as sensory deprivation, minimal diet, sleep deprivation etc.   There must also be a decision made on all dominate Christian society's as to what is the end goal of Islamic fundamentalists.   Is it total religious domination or merely the expulsion of heathens from their scared land.   If they plan on total domination then there is no place for negotiation and they all must be put to the sword wherever they are, whatever age, whatever sex and let history be the judge.   That isn't our way though and we pride ourselves on taking the moral high ground. We must decide whether we want to win and what it will take.   I believe that our culture has made us weak in that regard and we don't have the stomach to get the job done.   So we fight to a draw at best.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: NewCenturion on February 10, 2005, 00:49:07
CFL just what I was thinking but afraid to post
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Sheep Dog AT on February 10, 2005, 00:51:19
A jumper with 22 years experience.   You can't expect to make an omlette without breaking a few eggs.   I have no doubtly upset the beehive but the thing is, is that most of us have not experienced hardship the likes of the "greatest generation" our parents and grandparents.   Therefore they have no idea of what the world is like past Scarbough.   Hell I've only been to Bosnia and what I came with from that tour was that we are seriously blessed to live where we do.   We have it VERY easy.   No one in this country has a clue as to the real hardships out there.   We are facing a potential cultural cleansing and not many people seem to care as long as Will and Grace is on next week.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Island Ryhno on February 10, 2005, 00:52:10
Sigh...Jamie Murphy never had the luxury of being put in a stress position. He was on a patrol, protecting a way of life in CANADA where the Khadr's are harboured. Jamie was thinking of going home to Candace, Norman, Alice, Johnny, Rosemary and Norma, plus his friends and my friends. I believe some of you may see how wrong our helping the Khadr's is when you read the names of Jamies girlfriend, father, mother, brother and two sisters. The Khadr family has admitted   on NATIONAL tv to being tied to a terrorist group directly responsible for the most horrible crimes against humanity since the nazis. The Khadr kid can burn there, we should deport the lawyers fighting for them as well. Terrorists do not give trials, they do not give captured soldiers the right to see a lawyer. They only one agenda; Kill. The do not give anyone the opportunity to plead for help. The way our government protects the Khadr family is a disgrace to all the people who have died at the hands of a terrorist. I wonder if I was a canadian aid worker who was captured by terrorist forces would the canadian media and government be so quick to come to my aid? Would I get the chance to tell the world how poorly I was treated. The whole Kadr clan should be deported as a minimum. We are being raped by this family at every chance, it's time for them to pay the piper, send his brother down to help alleviate the lonliness.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Thucydides on February 10, 2005, 01:10:59
I fully understand why the issue brings out such strong emotions, but in one way we are being suckered by this guy's lawyer. The "torture" being described is about as intimidating as we get if we are captured in an E&E exercise: isolation, the stress position, sitting in the "cage" listening to atonal music...It is a play for sympathy and to try to get some soft headed judge to spring him.

Unfortunatly, there have already been a few cases of detainees who were sprung, only to be killed in combat with US SF teams in Afghanistan a few months later. The Laws of Armed Conflict are generally in agreement that captives can be detained until the end of hostilities; since these clowns have chosen to unleash a 30 years war on us, it stands to reason they will be held in captivity for the rest of their natural lives. If "Gitmo" is getting a bit crowded, perhaps we could offer Baffin Island as an alternative?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: big bad john (John Hill) on February 10, 2005, 01:12:01
Sigh...Jamie Murphy never had the luxury of being put in a stress position. He was on a patrol, protecting a way of life in CANADA where the Khadr's are harboured. Jamie was thinking of going home to Candace, Norman, Alice, Johnny, Rosemary and Norma, plus his friends and my friends. I believe some of you may see how wrong our helping the Khadr's is when you read the names of Jamies girlfriend, father, mother, brother and two sisters. The Khadr family has admitted   on NATIONAL tv to being tied to a terrorist group directly responsible for the most horrible crimes against humanity since the nazis. The Khadr kid can burn there, we should deport the lawyers fighting for them as well. Terrorists do not give trials, they do not give captured soldiers the right to see a lawyer. They only one agenda; Kill. The do not give anyone the opportunity to plead for help. The way our government protects the Khadr family is a disgrace to all the people who have died at the hands of a terrorist. I wonder if I was a canadian aid worker who was captured by terrorist forces would the canadian media and government be so quick to come to my aid? Would I get the chance to tell the world how poorly I was treated. The whole Kadr clan should be deported as a minimum. We are being raped by this family at every chance, it's time for them to pay the piper, send his brother down to help alleviate the lonliness.

I seem to remember the SS using that aargumenton "Terror Fliers".   They then sent 80 or so Commonwealth Aircrew to Belsen.   It took the Luftwaffe some months to free them.   Not all made it out.   I know what it is like when you see the people who hurt your ccomradesbragging and walking free.

We should change the laws and prosecute them, not deport the problem.   My problem is that we set rules for ourselves and then ignore these rules (read laws).   How can we expect others to respect our laws then?   Do they only apply when it is cconvenient   
"Officer my lad is really not bad.   It was his first time drinking and driving.   He didn't mean to kill those people.   So we'll just give him a pass".

If we are going to incarcerate these people, then let us set up a legal frame work to do so.   Otherwise we have no come backs on how other nations and organizations treat our troops when they become POWs.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Glorified Ape on February 10, 2005, 01:15:29
the most horrible crimes against humanity since the nazis

I'd say Rwanda, Sudan, Bosnia, Stalin, Mao, the Khmer Rouge (to name a few) were a bit worse than 9/11.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: NewCenturion on February 10, 2005, 01:16:56
A jumper with 22 years experience.   You can't expect to make an omlette without breaking a few eggs.   I have no doubtly upset the beehive but the thing is, is that most of us have not experienced hardship the likes of the "greatest generation" our parents and grandparents.   Therefore they have no idea of what the world is like past Scarbough.   heck I've only been to Bosnia and what I came with from that tour was that we are seriously blessed to live where we do.   We have it VERY easy.   No one in this country has a clue as to the real hardships out there.   We are facing a potential cultural cleansing and not many people seem to care as long as Will and Grace is on next week.

Yeah I'm getting soft in my old age, too many hardlandings. But seriously your right, the vast majority of Canadians have absolutely know idea what the world is like outside the big " CBC, Charter of Rights, I'm ok your ok, we're better than the Americans." bubble we live in. If you want a real good idea what the Arab nations think of the West check out the Middle East Media Research Institute web site at http://www.memri.org/index.html
 J.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: big bad john (John Hill) on February 10, 2005, 01:19:59
Might I suggest we take this topic down a notch or two emotionally.   It is a very emotional issue.   That is not a bad thing.   But I see no one here defending the prisoners.   We just seem to have different ideas on how to proceed.

I would suggest that the Forum Moderators keep a close watch on this topic.   That everyone, myself included take a deep breath before posting anything.   

I would also like to apologize if I have offended anyone.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Sheep Dog AT on February 10, 2005, 01:48:05
Hey I'm cool as a cucumber.  8)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: CFN. Orange on February 10, 2005, 01:54:52
i think the part that gets me the most peeved about this is
"One of Canada's children."


I hate the fact that Canadians can be linked in any ways shape or form to this type of terrorism. Call me what you will but i still have the image of the good, and wholesome Canada.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Britney Spears on February 10, 2005, 02:09:41
Quote
But I see no one here defending the prisoners

I am. 5 Brits were wisked away and locked up for 3 years, without access to legal counsel, a chance to face their accusers, or even to know what crimes they were being detained for.Even the Administration, by simply releasing them without any kind of follow-up, is tacitly admitting that they were completely innocent. I'm the only one who has a problem with that?

Gentlemen, I give you this (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6631668/), and I quote:

Quote
Could a â Å“little old lady in Switzerlandâ ? who sent a check to an orphanage in Afghanistan be taken into custody if unbeknownst to her some of her donation was passed to al-Qaida terrorists? asked U.S. District Judge Joyce Hens Green.

â Å“She could,â ? replied Deputy Associate Attorney General Brian Boyle. â Å“Someone's intention is clearly not a factor that would disable detention.â ? It would be up to a newly established military review panel to decide whether to believe her and release her.

This sure does't make ME feel any safer.

Yes, I read Infanteer's post about getting our wires crossed, but I don't see what basis any argument for torture has when there is no way of even proving the guilt of any of the prisoners.

We do live by principles in this country, and you all presumably signed up to defend those principles, not just to shoot ragheads.





Now, having said that, it doesn't seem to me that the allegations of "torture" have much basis in fact. I quote from this source (http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041203/REPOSITORY/412030359/1013/NEWS03)


Quote
Leon asked if U.S. courts could review detentions based on evidence from torture conducted by U.S. personnel.

Boyle said torture was against U.S. policy and any allegations of it would be "forwarded through command channels for military discipline."

He added, "I don't think anything remotely like torture has occurred at Guantanamo," but noted that some U.S. soldiers there had been disciplined for misconduct, including a female interrogator who removed her blouse during questioning.

The International Committee of the Red Cross said Tuesday it has given the Bush administration a confidential report critical of U.S. treatment of Guantanamo detainees. The New York Timesreported the Red Cross described the psychological and physical coercion used at Guantanamo as "tantamount to torture."


 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on February 10, 2005, 02:12:22
Might I suggest we take this topic down a notch or two emotionally.   It is a very emotional issue.   That is not a bad thing.   


AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Boy that felt good! :D

I, personally, am against torturing anyone...However, if this "torture" is just method of harsh interrogation (and I have had worse done to me before they stopped doing that training) then I believe that it is justified. There is a time/date stamp on how much info can be gotten from a detainee after capture and the lower the rank, the shorter the time (generally about 24 hours). A sense of shock and bewilderment must be maintained in order to keep the detainee off mental balance and make the job of interrogation that much easier.

During my Int interrogation training I have witnessed, first had, the methods of U,S, intelligence officers as they conducted interrogations during an ex...they are very good and proficient at what they do...Believe me you don't need the north American equivalent Chinese water torture to make people break down...

Slim
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Britney Spears on February 10, 2005, 02:18:55
I might add that I think there is a reasonable compromise between a full fledged western style trial with all the trimmings, which is evidently inappropriate for this situation, and just locking people up and throwing away the key. Perhaps a modified military tribune, or a supervised trial in the state where they were captured( Afghanistan presumably). But IANAL, so I won't go into too much more detail.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: DFW2T on February 10, 2005, 02:44:57
Yes I know the saying goes, "Much Ado About Nothing" and unlike that Shakespearean play the Iraqi prisoner abuse is no comedy but it does involve politics of a sort.   It IS something.   For good and ill it will remain an issue.   On the one hand right thinking Americans will abhor the stupidity of the actions while on the other hand political glee will take control and fashion this minor event into some modern day My Lai massacre.

I heard some Arabs are asking for an apology. I humbly offer mine here.

I am sorry that the last seven times the Americans took up arms and sacrificed the blood of our youth it was in the defense of Muslims (Bosnia, Kosovo, Gulf War 1 ? Kuwait, etc.)

I am sorry that no such call for an apology upon the extremists came after 9/11.

I am sorry that all of the murderers on 9/11 were Arabs.

I am sorry that Arabs have to live in squalor under savage dictatorships.

I am sorry that their leaders squander their wealth.

I am sorry that their governments breed hate for the US in their 'religious' schools.

I am sorry that Yasir Arafat was kicked out of every Arab country and high jacked the Palestinian "cause."

I am sorry that no other Arab country will take in or offer more than a token amount of financial help to those same Palestinians.

I am sorry that the USA has to step in and be the biggest financial supporters of poverty stricken Arabs while the insanely wealthy Arabs blame the USA.

I am sorry that our own left wing elite and our media can't understand any of this.

I am sorry the United Nations scammed the poor people of Iraq out of the "food for oilâ ? money so they could get rich while the common folk suffered.

I am sorry that some Arab governments pay the families of homicide bombers upon their death.

I am sorry that those same bombers are seeking 72 virgins ? They can't seem to find one here on Earth.

I am sorry that the homicide bombers think babies are a legitimate target.

I am sorry that our troops died to free more Arabs.

I am sorry they stopped the gang rape rooms and the filling of mass graves with dissidents.

I am sorry they show so much restraint when their brothers in arms are killed.

I am sorry that Muslim extremists have killed more Arabs than any other group.

I am sorry that foreign trained terrorists are trying to seize control of Iraq and return it to a terrorist state.

I am sorry we don't drop a few dozen Daisy Cutters on Fallujah.

I am sorry every time terrorists hide they find a convenient "Holy Site."

I am sorry they didn't apologize for driving a jet into the World Trade Center that collapsed and severely damaged St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church - one of OUR Holy Sites.

I am sorry they didn't apologize for flight 93 and 175, the USS Cole, the embassy bombings,etc.

I am sorry Michael Moore is American; he could feed a medium sized village in Africa.

I am sorry the French are ? French.

America will get past this latest absurdity. We will punish those responsible because that's what we do.   We hang out our dirty laundry for all the world to see.   We move on.   That's why we are hated so much.   We don't hide this stuff like all those Arab countries that are now demanding an apology.

Deep down inside when most Americans saw this reported in the news we were like... so what?   We lost hundreds and made fun at a few prisoners.   Sure it was wrong?   Sure, it dramatically hurts our cause, but until captured we were trying to kill these same prisoners.   Now we're supposed to wring our hands because a few were humiliated?   Come on.   Our compassion is tempered with the vivid memories of our own people killed, mutilated and burnt amongst a joyous crowd of celebrating Fallujans.

If you want an apology from this North American your gonna have a long wait. You have a better chance of finding those 72 virgins.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Brad Sallows on February 10, 2005, 04:00:46
>I am. 5 Brits were wisked away and locked up for 3 years, without access to legal counsel, a chance to face their accusers, or even to know what crimes they were being detained for.Even the Administration, by simply releasing them without any kind of follow-up, is tacitly admitting that they were completely innocent. I'm the only one who has a problem with that?

It depends on the circumstances under which they were detained.  Any lawful combatant taken prisoner may be detained as PoW for the duration of hostilities.  There is no trial and there should be no trial unless a PoW violates the laws of war or of his own armed forces; hence, there are no accusers to be faced and no right of access to legal counsel.  A PoW is simply detained.  A PoW should be repatriated as soon as practical after hostilities cease; a PoW may be paroled sooner at the discretion of the detaining power and if the prisoner accepts parole; a paroled PoW subsequently taken under arms against the paroling power may be treated as an unlawful combatant.

At a minimum, it stands to reason that any combatant - lawful or not - may be detained for the duration of hostilities at the discretion of the detaining power.  If the combatant is simply detained, there are no trials and no visits by lawyers are required.  Anyone who wishes to participate in some sort of open-ended crusade against the US may theoretically be detained for the duration of his natural life.  Until the holy warriors are victorious over the US, or whatever amounts to the highest political command authority of the holy warriors meets the terms of surrender dictated by the US, all of the holy warriors taken prisoner may remain in detention.

I don't know under what circumstances the 5 Brits were taken prisoner.  But, if they were taken in arms, they could still be in detention today if it pleased the US to retain them.  I haven't heard that Al Qaeda or any similar organization has offered terms of surrender, or that the US has accepted any such terms.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: NewCenturion on February 10, 2005, 11:07:03
DFW2T great post, I agree. I'm assuming from your post your an American, if so, my hat's off to you and your countrymen, thank God for the USA. J
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: DFW2T on February 10, 2005, 11:22:11
Jumper,
   Actually I'm an ex CDN soldier working for an American company doing PSD work here in Iraq.  But thanks...wish there were more Canadians here!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: P Kaye on February 10, 2005, 11:43:25
I'm not sure how the process works for enemy combatants capture during combat... but what I have read in the media leads me to believe that they are held by the military.
I might suggest that it is a bad idea to allow POWs to be held by soldiers who are in any way linked to the combat.  Understandably, soldiers who have a role in fighting will be in a combat mindset, and will be emotionally embroilled in feelings of anger towards the enemy.  This, I suspect, could be the source of some of the alleged abuses that we have seen reported.  Combat soldiers develop a hatred for their enemy, and when they have an enemy held captive, it may be very difficult to resist the temptation to commit abuses.
Perhaps a policy should be put in place where POWs are IMMEDIATELY transferred to the supervision of specialists who are not directly involved in combat.  Perhaps these should be civilian lawyers and political scientists, with a small dedicated armed squad for security.  The combat soldiers could be kept completely away from the POWs.
Perhaps this would be difficult to acheive, logistically.  And of course there is always going to be a delay between the time the combat soldiers apprehend the POW and the time when they could actually be transferred out.
Does anybody know for certain how the process actually works in practice?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Horse_Soldier on February 10, 2005, 11:55:17
I'm not sure how the process works for enemy combatants capture during combat... but what I have read in the media leads me to believe that they are held by the military.
I might suggest that it is a bad idea to allow POWs to be held by soldiers who are in any way linked to the combat.   Understandably, soldiers who have a role in fighting will be in a combat mindset, and will be emotionally embroilled in feelings of anger towards the enemy.   This, I suspect, could be the source of some of the alleged abuses that we have seen reported.   Combat soldiers develop a hatred for their enemy, and when they have an enemy held captive, it may be very difficult to resist the temptation to commit abuses.
Perhaps a policy should be put in place where POWs are IMMEDIATELY transferred to the supervision of specialists who are not directly involved in combat.   Perhaps these should be civilian lawyers and political scientists, with a small dedicated armed squad for security.   The combat soldiers could be kept completely away from the POWs.
Perhaps this would be difficult to acheive, logistically.   And of course there is always going to be a delay between the time the combat soldiers apprehend the POW and the time when they could actually be transferred out.
Does anybody know for certain how the process actually works in practice?
I'll point out one thing that immediately strikes me with respect to your argument - the Abu Gharaib (and alledged Guantanamo) abuses were not committed by combat soldiers but by rear-area types, and in the case of what is alleged in Guantanamo, includes civilians.     To say that combat soldiers develop a hatred for the enemy also rings very false.   I've had many members of my family fight in WW2 (on both sides) and the one thing I never, ever heard from them was hatred for the enemy.   I would posit that hatred is the last thing you want a combat soldier to feel because it will cause him to commit stupid mistakes.   Combat soldiers are not ravening lunatics whose only aim is to kill - at least not in our (western) armies.   Once the fight is out of the enemy, the social inhibitions against violence that were suppressed under fire, come back.   POW abuse by front line troops has historically been rare enough to make it an exception - and many of those exceptions were committed by ideologically (political or religious) conditioned troops where the normal inhibitions to committing violence on unarmed people have been suppressed (the SS are an example).

I also fail to see where civilian lawyers and political scientists would be involved in guarding prisoners - the thing one is supposed to do with POWs is hold them until the end of hostilities so they can no longer fight.   For that all you need is a secure compound and enough rifles/machine guns on the perimeter to deter escape attempts.

POWs captured by front-line troops are handed over to whomever has the POW pick-up role ASAP and their first stop is the formation POW cage run by MPs.   From there, they are transported to POW camps by whatever means are available.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: muskrat89 on February 10, 2005, 11:55:52
Quote
Perhaps these should be civilian lawyers and political scientists, with a small dedicated armed squad for security.

Please tell me that was "tongue in cheek"
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: P Kaye on February 10, 2005, 12:06:00
>> Please tell me that was "tongue in cheek"

Well, I didn't think that aspect through very carefully.... all I was getting at is you might want to have some kind of experts on-hand at POW prisons for interrogation purposes... to help decide what kind of information the enemy combatants might have that could be valuable, and to assess whether the information being provided is accurate.

>> Combat soldiers are not ravening lunatics whose only aim is to kill - at least not in our (western) armies

Indeed, I agree and wholeheartedly hope this is always the case.  This point is somewhat related to a (very heated) argument I had very recently on a thread about the Marine Generals comment about killing being "fun".  I was arguing that soldiers should attempt to maintain the mindset that killing is just the job they have to do... and avoid taking pleasure in it out of hatred for the enemy.  Others were arguing against me that there is nothing wrong with a soldier enjoying his job (even killing), and that it might make a soldier more effective in combat.  I can see the point they are making, but I wholeheartedly disagree with it.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Britney Spears on February 10, 2005, 12:25:05
I don't know under what circumstances the 5 Brits were taken prisoner.  But, if they were taken in arms, they could still be in detention today if it pleased the US to retain them.  I haven't heard that Al Qaeda or any similar organization has offered terms of surrender, or that the US has accepted any such terms.

While I am not an expert on the Geneva convention, it must be quite obvious that these rules cannot readily be applied in this instance. Those rules were made for uniformed soldiers captured under the circumstances of conventional warfare. If you are captured with a mauser in your hand and wearing a Nazi uniform, then there is no doubt that you are an enemy combatant and should be detained. Obviously, Al Qaida or the Talliban are not going to surrender or negotiate a prisoner exchange, so what recourse do those who are mistakenly detained have? Do you want to tell those 5 Brits (who never had any connection with either)  that they are detained indefinetly until OBL surrenders or calls to negotiate their release? I agree with the administration in that they are not formal prisoners of war.

Now, I suspect many of the detainees had no reason to be there, but if the administration had been more transparent with their methods, and formally laid out evidence and charges against the detainees, this whole shebang would have been more palletable to the public. Ultimately, some of the detainees would have to be aquitted for lack of evidence, and hey, we made a mistake, here's a T-shirt, no serious harm done. If they continue to insist on Gestapo methods, people like me are going to get a little nervous.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Wizard of OZ on February 10, 2005, 12:33:56
DFW2T

That was an excellent post but to bring it in line with the topic you should have appologized for the fact that their son was captured after throwing a grenade that killed Sgt 1st class Christopher J. Speer.

We appologize that you were sent rasied in the world of radical Islam and that you had to attend Bin Ladens terror training camps in Afganistan.

We are sorry that after the death of Christopher J. Speer you were saved by another army medic who saved your *** after you took three rounds.

We are sorry that your family has no remorse for your killing of a US army Medic but now want the Canadian Public on their side to get your release.

We are sorry you had to live in Canada, you could alway go back to living with Osama bin Laden if you don't like the rights and freemdoms your family has here.

i' am sorry but but i find it hard to believe these people want my sympathy.   Check the national post "Canada Liable for any Abuse" for where the appoligies of my post come from.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: DFW2T on February 10, 2005, 12:52:10
DFW2T

That was an excellent post but to bring it in line with the topic you should have appologized for the fact that their son was captured after throwing a grenade that killed Sgt 1st class Christopher J. Speer.

We appologize that you were sent rasied in the world of radical Islam and that you had to attend Bin Ladens terror training camps in Afganistan.

We are sorry that after the death of Christopher J. Speer you were saved by another army medic who saved your *** after you took three rounds.

We are sorry that your family has no remorse for your killing of a US army Medic but now want the Canadian Public on their side to get your release.

We are sorry you had to live in Canada, you could alway go back to living with Osama bin Laden if you don't like the rights and freemdoms your family has here.

i' am sorry but but i find it hard to believe these people want my sympathy.   Check the national post "Canada Liable for any Abuse" for where the appoligies of my post come from.


   Wizard,
     Touche' ....Good points...... Thanks!

DFW2T
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: RN PRN on February 10, 2005, 13:03:34
One apology you forgot was

We are sorry that your son was wounded while attacking American troops and is now paralyzed. We are also sorry that you decided to move back to Canada so that you could access the health care system because the one in your homeland was discriminatory, archaic an corrupt.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Thucydides on February 10, 2005, 13:13:44
While I am not an expert on the Geneva convention, it must be quite obvious that these rules cannot readily be applied in this instance. Those rules were made for uniformed soldiers captured under the circumstances of conventional warfare. If you are captured with a mauser in your hand and wearing a Nazi uniform, then there is no doubt that you are an enemy combatant and should be detained. Obviously, Al Qaida or the Talliban are not going to surrender or negotiate a prisoner exchange, so what recourse do those who are mistakenly detained have? Do you want to tell those 5 Brits (who never had any connection with either)   that they are detained indefinetly until OBL surrenders or calls to negotiate their release? I agree with the administration in that they are not formal prisoners of war.

Now, I suspect many of the detainees had no reason to be there, but if the administration had been more transparent with their methods, and formally laid out evidence and charges against the detainees, this whole shebang would have been more palletable to the public. Ultimately, some of the detainees would have to be aquitted for lack of evidence, and hey, we made a mistake, here's a T-shirt, no serious harm done. If they continue to insist on Gestapo methods, people like me are going to get a little nervous.

This is why the situation is so ambiguous; Jihadis and their decendents are not and will not conform to the definitions developed to write the Laws of War. Historical analogies are a bit frightening. The Jihadis resemble the religious or ideological SS troops who do wantonly kill prisoners.

Perhaps one of the reasons there is little transparency in the process is suspects are being picked up through the use of intelligence means, and if these means were reveled in a court room or simply by providing the defense with material evidence, then important assets would be lost or neutralized. The other reason is soldiers are not police, and if my section was to flush out some Jihadis and capture them, we would not have the training, time or inclination to gather forensic evidence other than the most obvious things like abandoned firearms. (even then, we are not wearing gloves or carrying evidence bags). I am sure new forms will be developed to deal with these situations, just as the police are discovering ways to fight Internet crime.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: George Wallace on February 10, 2005, 13:35:15
Although this was sent to me as a joke, it does hold some relevance in a discussion such as this and our dealings with the Liberal Left:

Quote
The White House 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, D.C. 20016
 
Dear Concerned Citizen:
 
Thank you for your recent letter roundly criticizing our treatment of the Taliban and Al Qaeda detainees currently being held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.   Our administration takes these matters seriously, and your opinion was heard loud and clear here in Washington. You'll be pleased to learn that thanks to the concerns of citizens like you, we are creating a new division of the Terrorist Retraining Program, to be called the "Liberals Accept Responsibility for Killers" program, or LARK for short.

In accordance with the guidelines of this new program, we have decided to place one   terrorist under your personal care.Your personal detainee has been selected and scheduled for transportation under heavily armed guard to your residence next Monday.

Ali Mohammed Ahmed bin Mahmud (you can just call him Ahmed) is to be cared for pursuant to the standards you personally demanded in your letter of admonishment.   It will likely be necessary for you to hire some assistant caretakers.   We will conduct weekly inspections to ensure that your standards of care for Ahmed are commensurate with those you so strongly recommended in your letter.

Although Ahmed is sociopathic and extremely violent, we hope that your sensitivity to what you described as his "attitudinal problem" will help him overcome these character flaws.   Perhaps you are correct in describing these problems as mere cultural differences. He will bite you, given the chance.   We understand that you plan to offer counseling and home schooling.   Your adopted terrorist is extremely proficient in hand-to-hand combat and can extinguish human life with such simple items as a pencil or nail clippers.   We suggest you do not ask him to demonstrate these skills at your next yoga group.

He is also expert at making a wide variety of explosive devices from common household products, so you may wish to keep those items locked up, unless (in your opinion) this might offend him.   Ahmed will not wish to interact with your wife or daughters (except sexually) since he views females as a subhuman form of property.   This is a particularly sensitive subject for him, and he has been known to show violent tendencies around women who fail to comply with the dress code that he will undoubtedly recommend as appropriate attire.   I'm sure your wife and daughters will come to enjoy the anonymity offered by the bhurka over time.   Just remind them that it is all part of "respecting his culture and his religious beliefs" - wasn't that how you put it?
 
Thanks again for your letter.   We truly appreciate it when folks like you, who know so much, keep us informed of   the proper way to do our job.   You take good care of Ahmed - and remember...we'll be watching.   Good luck!
 
Cordially...Your Buddy,
Don Rumsfeld

GW
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Britney Spears on February 10, 2005, 16:14:25
Perhaps one of the reasons there is little transparency in the process is suspects are being picked up through the use of intelligence means, and if these means were reveled in a court room or simply by providing the defense with material evidence, then important assets would be lost or neutralized. The other reason is soldiers are not police, and if my section was to flush out some Jihadis and capture them, we would not have the training, time or inclination to gather forensic evidence other than the most obvious things like abandoned firearms. (even then, we are not wearing gloves or carrying evidence bags). I am sure new forms will be developed to deal with these situations, just as the police are discovering ways to fight Internet crime.

Absolutely, and that is why a civilian court would be inadequate for most of the situations. I am all for a more lenient standard when it comes to evidence and what not.

e.g. In your example, If you as the officer commanding, together with 2 troops on the scene, were willing to testify against the detainee, and the details of his arrest were made public( in sofar as OPSEC would allow , naturally), I think it would be a good enough case to satisfy public curiosity. It could even be done in writing, although I suspect the hardships of a week in Cuba won't put too much strain on your busy schedule.

I don't think such proceedings will neccesarily stand up in a civilian courtroom, but a guesture of good faith is better than nothing.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Wizard of OZ on February 10, 2005, 16:33:40
One apology you forgot was

We are sorry that your son was wounded while attacking American troops and is now paralyzed. We are also sorry that you decided to move back to Canada so that you could access the health care system because the one in your homeland was discriminatory, archaic an corrupt.

Yes excellent add on.

I think we are forgetting that these people are at a military instilation not a federal prision and therefore in my opinion should only be afforded the rights of POWs.  Not that of American citizens.  If (when) a Canadian citizen were to be caught in Iran do think he would be tried according to Canadian Law or Iranian law? 

Just cause the combatants don't dress like they are in the army is no reason to treat them any different then other POWs who do.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jarnhamar on February 10, 2005, 16:52:56
I think the whole prison abuse topic is a bit of a dead horse but i'm quite certian more went on than a little sleep deprivation or panties worn on prisoners heads. 

I would argue that prisoners died while in custody but someone would easily fire back prisoners die in our prisons all the time.

I'm sure the abuse in the prison wasn't some death camp type set up but lets not wave our hands and pass it off as some of the boys just getting a little out of hand.

Honestly,  can have a single thread here about the geneeva convention or  prisoners of war or abuse or the airborne regiment without someone mentioning somalia?  That word is the frankinstein of dead horses.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Wizard of OZ on February 10, 2005, 16:58:14
Agree with alot of what you said ghost.

But  I think Somlia may be the litmist test of abuse scandels and that is why it is always mentioned.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: P Kaye on February 10, 2005, 17:00:24
Agreed Ghost.

The list of "apologies", while perhaps midly entertaining, is only really serving as an amusing way to vent.  Nothing constructive is coming out of that...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Wizard of OZ on February 10, 2005, 17:06:31
And what you plan on solving the worlds problems on public form?

it is an opinion post based on the article i mentioned.  Used to stimulate conversation be it good or bad.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: P Kaye on February 10, 2005, 17:15:42
>>it is an opinion post based on the article i mentioned.   Used to stimulate conversation be it good or bad.
 
Fair enough.   Clearly we can't "solve all the world's problems" here, but if we can provide good, informed, insightful debate and try to minimize ranting and venting, the credibility of this forum will continue to grow.

I would love to think that Generals, and perhaps even the Minister of National Defense will visit this site and read the columns... if they did I would hope that they would find the posts to be generally intelligent and insightful, and give them things to think about.
 
 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: NewCenturion on February 10, 2005, 17:37:25

 
Fair enough.   Clearly we can't "solve all the world's problems" here, but if we can provide good, informed, insightful debate and try to minimize ranting and venting, the credibility of this forum will continue to grow.

I would love to think that Generals, and perhaps even the Minister of National Defense will visit this site and read the columns... if they did I would hope that they would find the posts to be generally intelligent and insightful, and give them things to think about.
 
 


I have found the posts intelligent and insightful, having said that, this is a pretty emotional topic for most patriots. And dammit sometimes you just gotta vent. J

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jarnhamar on February 10, 2005, 18:22:16
If your air smelt like fresh pine trees and poutine and good beer i think you would transfer to my trade S_Baker   ;)



Agreed, i'm not too sure the circumstances.   When something like this happens there always seems to be two extreames. In the prison case it often seemed to be

a. the monster american soldiers were pulling the teeth out of these poor innocent until proven guilty prisoners and tourturing them for sick entertainment and,
b. there was no wrong doing here, just some troops getting out of hand. it happens all the time it's no big deal.

More often than not the truth is in the middle. (Which I would say for practically every topic discussed here. Saying its fun to kill people, somalia, what we should do to deserters, how to win the war in iraq, when is it okay to swear)

Quote
As a military professional and an Army Officer I hate to second guess someones decision while they were in harms way.   It is important to analyze ones decisions but unless you were there it is difficult to criticize.
Agreed though I think that just because my feet wern't on the ground that I can't form my own opinion from what i see and hear in the media from reporters, military spoksmen and the soldiers that were there.   I think the key is to analyze and not criticize.   Passing judgement according to the first article/news flash you see is no good.

I'm a little biased (or maybe touchy/emotional?) when it comes to the somalia topic.     
Aside from kids going on about how we need the airborne regiment back(Yet they have no idea what a paratrooper does) , i personally find that many people bring up somalia as a sort of "Ya well you guys aren't so perfect either!".  
It's a mistake that people (who often seem to be near oblivious to the facts, yourself excluded) always always bring up thinking it's like check mate in a game of chess.
It bugs me the same way when people constantly put down the professionalisim dedication and sacrifice of the american soldiers by refering to the prison abuse issue or case of the soldier shooting the 'guy playing dead' again as a sort of "check mate" when it's clearly not. To me it's almost as silly as holding germanies actions in WW2 against their soldiers in the present.


Quote
would love to think that Generals, and perhaps even the Minister of National Defense will visit this site and read the columns...

Of course they do. They are the ones that make up the goofy names and ask stupid questions just to get us going     ;D

EDIT: re-reading my post S_Baker, it might seem like I am directing my comments towards you. I appologize if thats how I sounded as it was not my intent.   I should have been more specific. I think there's a huge difference betweensoldiers and civilians  educated on the subject discussing the issue professionally and someone who just brings it up as an attack.   I think you made a great comparison of lack of leadership found in both incidents.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: RN PRN on February 10, 2005, 20:15:11


Just cause the combatants don't dress like they are in the army is no reason to treat them any different then other POWs who do.



Actually that is the exact case. Under the Geneva convention a member is only afforded the protection of the conventions if he/ she is recognisable from the general population by a garb or identifier. As these people were not in a uniform of any sort they are not protected by it. It would be the same way for a member of the SF or a spy who is caught behind enemy lines in Civi Dress. They are ukered.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Rick_Donald on February 10, 2005, 22:29:50
Maybe it's just me, but I'm finding that everytime these Islamic Jihad sympathizers open their mouths its a pack of lies intended to penetrate the thin skulls of liberal's and weaken the western world's (the Great Satan) resolve to end this unholy war the only way possible. Only by bringing democracy to these oppressed nations and freeing the minds and bodies of these people will we ever experience peace.
That goes for all nations that use tyranny, oppression and fear to rule, China, North Korea, Iran, and Sudan. The States is on the right path but need more support from the international community. If the UN really cared about world peace and human rights than the US wouldn't be going this alone.
As for the Khadr's they should all be sent back to the cesspool they spawned from and stop trying to con the Canadian people with their lies. They've admitted to committing the crime so do the time.



Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Thucydides on February 10, 2005, 22:34:26
Actually that is the exact case. Under the Geneva convention a member is only afforded the protection of the conventions if he/ she is recognisable from the general population by a garb or identifier. As these people were not in a uniform of any sort they are not protected by it. It would be the same way for a member of the SF or a spy who is caught behind enemy lines in Civi Dress. They are ukered.

If you really want to get technical, people who fight disguised as civillians, fight from churches, mosques, hospitals, schools; target innocent civillians or use them as shields fall under a different category:

Criminal.

Historically, the way these people have been dealt with from ancient times to today is they are dragged into the middle of the street and shot (or stabbed if you go back far enough). The fact Uncle Sam sees fit to house these people in any sort of accomodations, feed and cloth them, give them access to US Army Imans, play a selection of C&W music for them to hear 24/7, and generally be prepared to do so for the remainder of their natural lives seems to indicate the Americans are way ahead of the curve, with the occasional throwbacks showing up in the guard house to spoil things.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Britney Spears on February 10, 2005, 23:20:07
Quote
play a selection of C&W music for them to hear 24/7,

And you say there's no torture?!


In all seriousness, some of the detainees were not captured during fighting, disguised as civillians or otherwise. Many were, in fact, simply snatched off the street in Pakistan or various African countries.  (Source here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/story/0,13743,1387829,00.html) and here (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6865216/).)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Sheep Dog AT on February 10, 2005, 23:37:26
I don't think democracy can be put in place by anyone else other then the people that live there regardless of how long it takes.  Otherwise the legitimacy will be in question.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Wizard of OZ on February 10, 2005, 23:53:28
Maybe it's just me, but I'm finding that everytime these Islamic Jihad sympathizers open their mouths its a pack of lies intended to penetrate the thin skulls of liberal's and weaken the western world's (the Great Satan) resolve to end this unholy war the only way possible. Only by bringing democracy to these oppressed nations and freeing the minds and bodies of these people will we ever experience peace.
That goes for all nations that use tyranny, oppression and fear to rule, China, North Korea, Iran, and Sudan. The States is on the right path but need more support from the international community. If the UN really cared about world peace and human rights than the US wouldn't be going this alone.
As for the Khadr's they should all be sent back to the cesspool they spawned from and stop trying to con the Canadian people with their lies. They've admitted to committing the crime so do the time.


I could not have said it better myself.  

They use our own societies rules against us while adhere to none.  When you show up to fight and the bell goes i think some of the gloves have to come off or it will never be a fair fight.  This is not to say that we should not abide by the rules of our won society but maybe when fighting those that don't we should play by their rules. 

a_majoor i think we finally agree on something, they should be treated as criminals and punished under their laws.

RN PRN  yea they may be ukered but if we treated every one in that manner than we would either have a lot more enemies or a lot fewer.  I think when we go to war we treat every combatant as a forgien solider it is what makes Civilized nations another step ahead of some back ward state.  But i see your point.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: RN PRN on February 11, 2005, 00:04:26
A_Majoor,

I stand corrected. I do not believe they would give any of our troops any quarter irregardless if the area, Afghan or Iraq.
As for the Khdar family, there is the door. We do not have the same beliefs as you, nor do we tolerate the kind of biggotism that you are so flagrantly displaying.

BYE! or Flush and swirl!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Wizard of OZ on February 11, 2005, 00:23:38
As for the Khdar family, there is the door. We do not have the same beliefs as you, nor do we tolerate the kind of biggotism that you are so flagrantly displaying.

BYE! or Flush and swirl!


wait wait

don't forget to write so we know how your family is doing at the terror camps in Iran
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: big bad john (John Hill) on February 12, 2005, 07:31:53
From todays Guardian:
Revealed: Britain's role in Guantanamo abduction
Freed detainee tells of horrors in US terror camp

David Rose
Sunday February 6, 2005
The Observer

British intelligence officials played a crucial part in the secret abduction of UK citizen Martin Mubanga to Guantanamo Bay. There, he reveals today in an exclusive interview, he endured 33 months of ill-treatment and often abusive interrogation.
Documents seen by The Observer disclose that even the Pentagon's own lawyers now accept that the intelligence that consigned him to Guantanamo may have been deeply flawed. Mubanga, who was released without charge after his return to Britain on 25 January, now plans to sue the British government.

In his interview today, the first by any of the four Britons who returned from Guantanamo last month, Mubanga, 32, describes a horrifying catalogue of abuse:

 · In one interrogation session, he was forced to urinate in the corner of the interview room while chained hand and foot.

 · He was treated to a regime known as 'BI [basic item] loss'. This meant his thin mattress, trousers, shirts, towel, blankets, and flipflops were all taken away, leaving him naked except for boxer shorts in an empty metal box.

 · Last autumn, while Pentagon lawyers were writing memos suggesting that Mubanga may not have had any involvement in terrorism at all and may not have been given a fair hearing, the Guantanamo authorities subjected him to the harshest treatment in his 33 months in Guantanamo, with three brutal assaults by the 'Instant Reaction Force' riot squad for trivial violations of the camp rules.
  · Mubanga's worst moment came last March, when the first five British detainees were sent home. He had at first been told he would be joining them, but was instead confined in a block with prisoners he could not communicate with, and told he would be held there for many more years.

The disclosure that British intelligence was instrumental in consigning Mubanga to Guantanamo raises serious questions about the consistency of British policy towards the controversial US camp. In public, ministers, led by Lord Goldsmith, the Attorney-General, negotiated for months with the Pentagon for the release of British detainees.

Mubanga's solicitor, Louise Christian, said yesterday that she planned to take legal action against the government. His arrest, detention and transfer had clearly breached British, Zambian and international law, she said. 'We are hoping to issue proceedings for the misfeasance of officials who colluded with the Americans in effectively kidnapping him and taking him to Guantanamo.'

Mubanga, a former motorcycle courier, says he went to Afghanistan at the end of 2001 to study Islam. He was never, he insists, a sympathiser with al-Qaeda, and he condemned the 9/11 attacks. 'I do not approve of the killing of innocent men, women and children,' he said.

He says he fled to Pakistan after the beginning of the war against the Taliban, but says that someone stole his passport. A dual British-Zambian national, he phoned his family from Karachi and asked them to post him his Zambian passport. He says he used this in February 2002 to go to Zambia, where he was joined by his sister and stayed with other relatives.

However, on 2 March the Sunday Times claimed Mubanga had been arrested in Afghanistan, fighting with the Taliban - presumably this referred to the man who stole or was handed his passport. Soon afterwards, he was seized by Zambian security men.

He was held in a series of guarded motels, where he was interrogated for days by a female American official and a Briton who called himself Martin and said he worked for MI6. 'Martin' produced Mubanga's British passport, together with a list of Jewish organisations in New York and a military training manual that he claimed Mubanga had handwritten. They had been found with the passport in a cave in Afghanistan, he said. Mubanga pointed out that his handwriting was nothing like that in the manual, and said he had never seen the documents before, or been to any caves.

A few days later, Mubanga was loaded on to a plane by men in balaclavas and flown to Guantanamo. For more than two years, the claims made by the MI6 man - that he had been on a mission to reconnoitre targets in New York and had travelled to Zambia on false documents - were the main grounds for his detention.

Last October, this was confirmed by a Guantanamo Combatant Status Review Tribunal, a panel of military officers. Later, however, this decision was reviewed by a US military lawyer, who found it deeply flawed. His report shows that Mubanga had asked to call members of his family in his defence, saying they prove that he had not travelled to Zambia on false documents for a terrorist mission, but to visit relatives on his own passport.

Last night a Foreign Office spokesman said he could not comment on the activities of British intelligence or security agencies. He said Mubanga's 'transfer to Guantanamo Bay is a matter for the Zambian and American authorities'.

Mod edit: took out the avertising stuff,
Bruce


Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Infanteer on February 12, 2005, 13:28:31
First off, I peeing in a room corner and having no bed doesn't seem like the abject torture that seems to be indicated.

Second, he claims he went to Afghanistan to study Islam?  That would be like me going to Sudan to study basketweaving or something.  Sounds fishy to me, and this guy was probably stuck there for good reason.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: CheersShag on February 12, 2005, 14:55:01
It's not entirely far fetchedthat he might go to Afghanistan to study Islam.
For many, going to Saudi Arabia is very pricey.
Afghanistan would have been an inexpensive way to study at an Arabian madrassa....economy class If you will.

But As you said Inf. those are hardly "A catalogue of Abuses"
I suppose to someone who isn't of that breed might find them somewhat horrific, and the whole Kafka-esque nature of his detention might give him a very genuine basis for his claim.

(was that good use of the term kafka-esque?)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: big bad john (John Hill) on February 12, 2005, 22:08:22
Excellent Che!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Island Ryhno on February 13, 2005, 00:16:25
These are different situations big bad john, perhaps someone does owe this guy an apology. The Khadr kid was killing american soldiers, caught with the blood of a soldier on him. When a wide net is cast, sometimes innocents get caught in that net. The unfortunate part about terrorism is that the net has to be so wide as to entrap a whole religious belief. Unfortunate incident on the brits case IF it is true. Khadr is getting better than he deserves.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: big bad john (John Hill) on February 13, 2005, 00:31:55
I am not defending any of them.  I just threw it out there for discusion.  Stir the pot and get the old grey matter working so to speak.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: big bad john (John Hill) on February 13, 2005, 08:30:28
07:30   13 February 2005

Freed Australia Terror Suspect Says He Was Tortured

SYDNEY (Reuters) - Australian former Guantanamo Bay detainee Mamdouh Habib said on Sunday he was beaten and subjected to electric shock torture in Pakistan and Egypt and degraded by U.S. forces in Cuba during his almost three years in detention.
Speaking for the first time since his release in January from Guantanamo Bay, Habib told Australia's 60 Minutes television program he was beaten by U.S. and Pakistani forces and tortured with electric shocks after his 2001 detention in Pakistan.

"They take me in a jail and they have a concrete wall and wire inside and they lift me up. They put electric shock on it and make me run," Habib said.
Habib was held on suspicion he helped Osama bin Laden (news - web sites)'s militant al Qaeda network after being arrested crossing from Pakistan into Afghanistan (news - web sites) three weeks after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States.
But the United States failed to find enough evidence to charge Habib and he arrived back in Sydney on January 28.
Habib said an unnamed Australian government official had witnessed him being tortured in a Pakistani military airport and again in Egypt. "He seen me tortured in the airport," an emotional Habib said in the television interview.

Australia says it has no evidence Habib was tortured or abused during his detention.
Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer said on Sunday that Habib's passport had been canceled as the country's secret service, the Australian Secret Intelligence Organization (ASIO), had security concerns about him.

"ASIO have great concerns about him. They have great concerns about his alleged involvement with al-Qaeda," Downer said.

Habib said that during a three week detention in Pakistan, 15 Americans and four Pakistanis beat him and stripped him naked, and photographed and videotaped him.

He said while naked a dog was brought up behind him and he was told that the dog had been trained to have sex with people.
"The dog was behind me all the time, but it doesn't do anything to me --just scare me," Habib said.
Photographs of U.S. soldiers abusing prisoners in Abu Ghraib jail in Iraq (news - web sites) shocked the world when published in 2004.

Eight U.S. soldiers were implicated in the prisoner abuse, several have been court marshaled and one ringleader sentenced to 10 years jail.
Habib said he was flown from Pakistan to Egypt, where he was tortured daily during his six month detention there before being moved to Guantanamo Bay. He said he was again subjected to electric shock, and also drugs, while in Egyptian detention.

Habib said he falsely confessed under torture in Egypt to being involved with al Qaeda and prior knowledge of the September 11 attacks on New York and Washington.

"I said yes. Nothing was true. I make them happy. I want to save myself," he said. Habib said he had never been to an al Qaeda training camp as alleged by U.S. authorities. Habib said he was in Pakistan in 2001 looking for a school and college for his children and for business opportunities because he wanted to leave Australia as he was being harassed by the country's secret service.

Habib refused to say why he was in Afghanistan or who funded his trip.
Habib said when he was transferred to Guantanamo Bay, where he was held for more than two years, he was subjected to inhumane and degrading treatment by U.S. authorities.
"They use everything possible to make me crazy," Habib said.
"They put me in isolation all the time. I never see the sun. I never have shower like a human being. I never treated like a human being," he said.
"No one should be treated in the way they are treated in Cuba. The Americans, how they are treating people, they are terrorists. They have no humanity." The United States has said it believes Guantanamo detainees are treated humanely.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Fishbone Jones on February 13, 2005, 15:58:06
On the other side of the coin....


Australian terror suspect allegedly had multiple meetings with Osama
 
Date: 10 February 2005 1531 hrs (SST)
 
URL: http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific/view/131813/1/.html
 
SYDNEY : A detained Australian terrorist suspect had multiple meetings with Al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden before returning home as a "sleeper" agent for the radical Islamic group, prosecutors alleged.

Lawyers for the suspect, Jack Thomas, went before a Melbourne court to make their third bail for application for their client, who was arrested in November and has since been held in a maximum security prison.

Prosecutors told the court that Thomas, a 31-year-old convert to Islam, met Osama on more than one occasion while training at an Al-Qaeda camp in Pakistan.

They alleged that Thomas continued to associate with people linked to Al-Qaeda after the group carried out the September 11, 2001, attacks on the United States.

He was allegedly approached by one Al-Qaeda member on behalf of bin Laden to return home to Australia and act as a "sleeper" for the organisation, the court heard.

Thomas, who at one point officially changed his name to Jihad - struggle or Holy War in Arabic - is charged with three offences including receiving money from, and providing support for Al-Qaeda when he was living in Pakistan in 2002 and 2003.

Magistrate Ian Gray said he would consider Thomas' bail application and announce his decision at a later time.

Thomas last applied for bail in December on the grounds that an Australian Federal Police interview that led to the charges against him breached the rules of evidence because it was conducted when Thomas was in custody in Pakistan with no access to a lawyer.

That application and an earlier one were both rejected.

His lawyer, Rob Stary, said before the hearing that Thomas was increasingly distressed by the conditions of his detention in the maximum security Barwon Prison, where he is in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day and has no contact with other inmates.

"He is terribly distressed and I think his mental state is completely fragile," he said.

His mother, Patsy Thomas, said her son's imprisonment was emotionally draining for the whole family.

"Not to be able to touch him and cuddle your child and to not be able to touch and cuddle his children is heartbreaking - we feel it," she told ABC radio earlier Thursday.

"One hour a month Jack is allowed to have contact with his two little girls," she said.

"The rest of the time he only sees them on the other side of the glass with us (for) one hour a week." - AFP


 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: big bad john (John Hill) on February 14, 2005, 08:48:36
todays Ottawa Citizen:

Canada's JTF2 captives vanish at Guantanamo
U.S. stymies request for information about fate of Afghans caught in raids
 
a journalist
The Ottawa Citizen


February 14, 2005


1 | 2 | 3 | NEXT >>
 
CREDIT: Andres Leighton, The Associated Press
Detainees are shown in their cells facing Mecca during evening prayers in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, in this 2002 photo. Canada has an obligation under the law of armed conflict to track the detainees its troops captured even after they are handed over to another country. However, U.S. officials have repeatedly refused to provide details on Guantanamo prisoners.
 
 

 

 
Individuals captured in Afghanistan by Canadian special forces were transported to the controversial U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay, but American officials have been reluctant to provide the government with information on what has happened to the captives.

Members of the Ottawa-based Joint Task Force 2 commando unit took at least three prisoners in January 2002 and another four during a raid several months later. But attempts by Canadian officers to find out what happened to the people appear to have been stymied by the U.S.

Canadian officials were told that once the captives were transferred to the American detention centre at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, the U.S. would then decide whether to release them or to continue holding them. At least three of the captives taken in the January 2002 JTF2 raid ended up in Guantanamo Bay, according to records obtained by the Citizen under the Access to Information law. It is not known whether they are still being held there.

American officials also declined to provide further details to the Canadian Forces about what happened to four individuals JTF2 turned over to the U.S after the May 2002 raid.

The U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay has been steeped in controversy since its establishment shortly after the Afghanistan war began. At the time Canadian government officials said they were confident any prisoners turned over to the U.S. would be treated properly by American authorities.

But since then there has been a steady stream of accusations of torture and sexual harassment of the prisoners, all denied by the Pentagon. The latest allegations involve Canadian teenager Omar Khadr, captured by American forces and accused of killing a U.S. soldier in Afghanistan.

FBI agents working at Guantanamo Bay have also raised concerns that support some of the prisoners' allegations about abuse.

Those concerns, made public in December, were contained in e-mails obtained by the American Civil Liberties Union as part of a lawsuit against the U.S. government. Recently a U.S. translator assigned to Guantanamo Bay also emerged with similar stories of abuse.

Asked over a two-day period last week for information on what became of the Canadians' prisoners, Defence Department officials said they did not readily have such details. Numbers of prisoners taken by Canadian troops in Afghanistan were also not readily available, Canadian Forces officials said.

In August 2003, a Canadian military intelligence officer reminded colleagues that Canada had an obligation under the law of armed conflict, as well as a national obligation, to track the detainees its troops captured even after they were handed over to another country.

However, right from the moment JTF2 turned over prisoners to the Americans in January 2002, Canadian military officials ran into problems finding out what happened to the captives. On Jan. 29, 2002, then-Commodore Jean-Yves Forcier wrote Canadian officers tried to check on the status and well-being of the prisoners. "U.S. authorities have maintained the position that they will not necessarily provide a status update concerning the detainees in question," he wrote.

Commodore J.P. Thiffault informed Vice-Admiral Greg Madison's office on Feb. 8, 2002 the Americans "could not advise on the future prospect of the detainees because a determination had yet to be finalized and will not be finalized until transferred to GTMO." GTMO refers to Guantanamo Bay.

Prisoners who were transferred by the U.S. to Guantanamo Bay were hooded, chained and sedated, prompting human rights groups to allege such methods were against the Geneva Convention.

In April 2002, then-defence minister Art Eggleton reassured the International Red Cross Canada remained concerned about the care and treatment of those captured and transferred into the U.S. system.

But when Canadian officials tried to find out what happened to the four people turned over by JTF2 to the Americans after a May 2002 raid on the village of Band Taimore, they were told the U.S would not provide further details. When Mr. Eggleton's successor, John McCallum, tried to find out that September what happened to prisoners, he was also unsuccessful. He was told by his senior military officials that "details on the captured individuals are sketchy at this time."

That joint U.S.-Canadian raid is still controversial because a 70-year-old man and a three-year-girl were killed in the operation. Canadian Forces officials stress JTF2 had left the compound before the killings took place. Canadian military reports indicate the elderly Afghan man was in U.S. custody and died after being struck in the head by a U.S. soldier's rifle butt. The girl's body was discovered after the raid at the bottom of the village well. It is believed she fell down the well in the confusion of the night-time special forces strike.

The Canadian reports note while any prisoners were in Canadian custody they were handled properly.

The Pentagon has stated it will not apply the Geneva Convention to prisoners turned over to their forces, but will treat such individuals humanely.

Canadian military police did make one trip to the U.S. "enemy prisoner of war" facility located at Kandahar airfield. According to police that facility was also visited by the International Red Cross. While the facility was austere, the police determined detainees were being properly treated at the time.

But human rights agencies note a number of Afghans have died while in U.S. custody in Afghanistan. Two of those have been classified by U.S. military pathologists as homicides. The third is still under investigation.

Canadian Forces officers were also sensitive concerning the language used to describe its prisoners in official reports. In a report from the Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Ray Henault, the term "persons are captured" was changed to "persons have been taken under custody" before the documents were sent on to the defence minister.

More than 500 people from 40 nations are being detained at Guantanamo Bay. It is unknown how many were captured by Canadian troops. A number have been at the prison for more than three years with no charges laid against them. They have also been denied legal representation. Another 208 prisoners have been released. Of those 62 were transferred to the custody of their home countries.

Last week lawyers for Canadian citizen Omar Khadr alleged at Guantanamo Bay he was drugged, threatened with sexual attack and repeatedly chained in stressful positions.

Mr. Khadr, now 18, has been in Guantanamo for the past 2 1/2 years. His family once lived with Osama bin Laden.

His lawyers allege the federal government failed to protect the Canadian citizen from torture. But Dan McTeague, parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, has said the Canadian government was given assurances by the U.S. Mr. Khadr is being treated in a humane way and the government takes the Americans at their word.

According to the FBI e-mails released in December by the American Civil Liberties Union, the Guantanamo prisoners were chained to the floor for 24 hours at a time. No food or water was provided and prisoners were allowed to defecate on themselves.

FBI officers also complained guards used snarling dogs to intimidate prisoners, a tactic the Pentagon had previously denied was being used.

© The Ottawa Citizen 2005
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Thucydides on February 14, 2005, 09:31:39
I think a summary is in order here.

1. The people being detained are not soldiers or combattents in any sense of the word according to the Geneva convention or the laws of war. Even under the Laws of War, it is acceptable to incarcerate them until the end of hostilities.

2. The allegations of torture are just that; allegations.

3. The prime source of these allegations are lawyers representing these people, or released prisoners who want to launch multi million dollar lawsuits.

4. The descriptions of most of these alleged torture sessions in the hands of American authorities sounds about as intimidating as a day in Cornwallis (for those of us who remember that far back). We routinely accept much harder conditions when doing arctic warfare training or living in the improvised "bases" on tour (although it is voluntary on our part), so austere living isn't a grounds for complaint in my book.

5. There are questions as to the means used to identify suspects for capture and incarceration. I will only suggest people identified by sensitive intelligence should be housed separately from people captured in combat operations.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: 2023 on February 14, 2005, 09:40:19
I sure hope there is no naive people on this site!!!! (sarcasm)

The LOAC and the Geneva Convention are guidelines for soldier conduct. Now that being said............if anyone here thinks that these are followed to a T, they are gravely mistaken.  Only a few cases are ever exposed and those are dealt with. It is human nature to want to exact revenge and each person reacts differently to stressful situations. 

The ROE's have evolved to become more Robust and give the soldier the opportunity to shoot first, take questions later...................finally!!!!!!!!!!!!! As long as someone can justify there actions, there is no reason to worry anymore.

WOW, I don't know where I am going with this............

44 Out!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on February 14, 2005, 15:48:23
I know that I won't make friends or points with this statement but...Lets try to keep in perspective that what the Iraqi prisoners have suffered in Cuba is NOTHING compared to what the AQ has done to its prisoners!

If we listen to the AQ prisoners whining then we're only helping them (AQ) in the long run!

Slim :cdn: :salute:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Rick_Donald on February 14, 2005, 15:54:25
I think that what you are trying to say is "Kill em all, Let God sort em out."
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on February 16, 2005, 19:35:24
I think that what you are trying to say is "Kill em all, Let God sort em out."

No...Not that either...But I do think that an awful lot of the complaints are BS.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: big bad john (John Hill) on February 22, 2005, 07:12:25
Grilling Canadian teen at Guantanamo Bay necessary: CSIS
 
Colin Perkel
Canadian Press


February 21, 2005

 
TORONTO (CP) -- Canada's spy agency argues it needs to be able to interrogate a Canadian teenager held as an enemy combatant by American authorities at Guantanamo Bay as part of its fight against terrorism, documents show.

The Canadian Security Intelligence Service also says the interrogations are not intended to help in any prosecution of Omar Khadr, whose family was intimately connected to al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden.

Khadr is accused of killing an American soldier with a grenade in Afghanistan in July 2002, when he was 15, and could face the death penalty.

His lawyers want the Federal Court to order an end to the interrogations and instead force Ottawa to provide him ``real and substantive'' consular help in Cuba.

"Any efforts to limit or fetter the service's investigative powers ... will hamper the service's ability to advise the Canadian government,'' William Hooper, an assistant of director of operations with CSIS, said in an affidavit obtained by The Canadian Press.

"(It would be) injurious to the public interest from a national-security perspective.''

Other heavily censored documents show Canada has made several low-key approaches to Washington about Khadr.

But while U.S. authorities rebuffed Ottawa's single request for consular access, they have allowed Canadian intelligence agents, including those from Foreign Affairs, to question him on several occasions.

In an interview Monday, Khadr's lawyer said the newly released information confirms Canada has not done enough to help.

"There have been some polite requests, it's all been under wraps (but) there have never been any public demands,'' Nate Whitling said from Edmonton.

"There's certainly never been any attempt to enforce Canada's and our client's rights.''

Khadr's Canadian lawyers, who have not had access to him, have criticized Ottawa's ``silent diplomacy'' as ineffective.

Internal Foreign Affairs briefing notes show federal sensitivity to that kind of criticism.

"The plight of detainees being held by U.S. forces, particularly in Guantanamo Bay, continues to generate considerable interest by the public, media, non-governmental organizations and parliamentarians,'' says one e-mail by a senior Foreign Affairs official to Canada's U.S. embassy in Washington in June 2003.

Among the stated objectives of a visit by senior Foreign Affairs officials to Washington in December 2003 was to "reassure Canadians that our government is protecting the rights of Canadians abroad,'' said a departmental briefing note.

Ottawa's key concern appeared to be whether Khadr, now 18, would be executed if convicted, although he has yet to be charged or stand trial.

In a letter dated Oct. 6, 2003 to his American counterpart, then-foreign affairs minister Bill Graham said Canada's concerns were ``particularly acute'' given Khadr's age.

In his partially blacked-out response, then-secretary of state Colin Powell simply stated that "all enemy combatants detained at Guantanamo Bay are treated humanely.''

Ottawa said recently it accepted those assurances.

However, Khadr's lawyers allege the teenager has been tortured at the U.S. prison in Cuba.

Among other things, they say he has been shackled in painful positions for long periods and threatened with rape.

Khadr's lawyers are trying to force Ottawa to release all relevant documents.

The federal government argues doing so "would be injurious to international relations, national defence or national security.''

Ottawa even threatened the lawyers with "contempt of proceedings'' for releasing unclassified material.

© Canadian Press 2005
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: George Wallace on February 22, 2005, 10:09:46
I see the Khadr lawyers are trying to "rape" us.  They are trying to have a "Canadian" of dubious loyalties brought back to Canada.  They are probably trying to apply Canada's Young Offenders laws to an alledged murder in a foreign land.  I don't think there is any precedence in a Canadian convicted of a murder in a foreign land ever falling under Canadian Law,rather than that of the nation in which they were convicted.  Canadians who have committed murder in the US have been sent to Death Row and executed.  Why would we expect anything different for Khadr?  He did not commit murder in Canada.  He is being held for the murder of a US Army medic, in a conflict with US Troops, in which he apparently was a willing combatant.

GW
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Freddy G on February 27, 2005, 13:29:13
Heres a though, being on the subject of torture and all. While it is against the laws we abide by to torture or mistreat any prisoners, is torture justifiable on occasions? Would it be acceptable if, say, the CIA had the man who knew all the plans for 9/11 and they tortured him (say, sleep/food/comfort deprivation or mental/minor physical pain) in order to save the lives of the thousands that died that day? Or if they had the man who knew about Bali, or a rash of suicide bombings etc etc.

Is torture justifiable in certain cases? Do we need a system that says sometimes you have to kill/hurt one to save a thousand?

This is just my personal view but I think that the old saying "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few," is totally right. So, yeah, torture and such are "acceptable" if it's going to save tons of people.

The problem comes when you think "what if the intelligence people are wrong, and the guy doesn't know anything?" Do you torture an innocent man to try and save other innocent people?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: NewCenturion on March 02, 2005, 00:13:25
Avenging social activists protecting the rights of the down trodden, or greasy lawyers trying to make a name for themselves? You pick

Lawsuit lays blame for torture at the top
Christian Science Monitor, USA
Mar. 2, 2005
Faye Bowers, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
www.csmonitor.com
"¢ More news articles on USA

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ReligionNewsBlog.com "¢ Item 10422 "¢ Posted: 2005-03-02 03:24:46
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In unusual move, human rights groups sue Rumsfeld and others for abuse of prisoners.

WASHINGTON - Human rights organizations are attempting to take accountability for the US military's alleged use of torture to a place government officials have so far failed to go - the top of the chain of command.

In a case that raises significant moral as well as legal questions about the Bush administration's conduct of the war on terror, a coalition of human rights groups, aided by former military officials, is suing to pin blame for the interrogation abuses in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere at the highest level of government.

Tuesday, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and Human Rights First filed a lawsuit in a federal court in Illinois on behalf of eight men who they say were subjected to torture and abuse by US forces under the command of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.


"Secretary Rumsfeld bears direct and ultimate responsibility for this descent into horror by personally authorizing unlawful interrogation techniques and by abdicating his legal duty to stop torture," says Lucas Guttentag, lead counsel in the lawsuit and director of the ACLU's Immigrants' Rights Project. "He gives lip service to being responsible but has not been held accountable for his actions. This lawsuit puts the blame where it belongs, on the secretary of Defense."

The suit charges Mr. Rumsfeld with violations of the US Constitution and international law prohibiting torture and cruel, inhuman, or degrading punishment. The lawsuit also seeks compensatory damages on behalf of the eight individuals allegedly tortured and abused by US military forces.

Although a civil case, it is building on a legal doctrine of holding top officials accountable for treatment of detainees in times of war, according to Scott Horton, chairman for the committee on international law at the New York City Bar Association. The legal rationale is rooted in the Nuremberg trials of 1946, he says, in which top officials were held responsible for establishing an "environment" permissive of abuse.

It's not clear, of course, if the charges will stick or even how the cases will proceed. Military historians can't recall a similar suit being filed. The closest, they say, occurred on the Philippine island of Samar at the turn of the 20th century. Still, those court martials did not go above the level of a brigadier general.

At press time Tuesday, neither Rumsfeld nor the Pentagon had responded to the charges levied in the lawsuit.

"This is obviously the opening gun in what is likely to be a very hard-fought case on both sides," says Eugene Fidell, a military law expert in Washington. "The authors have done an enormous amount of homework and have mined the reports generated over the last year as well as the information the ACLU and others obtained under the FOIA [Freedom of Information Act]."


The implications

The potential implications of this lawsuit are broad. If the prosecutions proceed, for instance, CIA officials could be charged for their role in the alleged torture of several Al Qaeda detainees they've had in its custody in undisclosed locations overseas.

The results of an internal investigation are expected soon. Moreover, the White House's general counsel wrote the memo believed to have created the atmosphere for the abuses. Will he be charged?

The human rights organizations vowed Tuesday to continue to push until they get to the bottom of the abuse scandal they say has tarnished the US at home and abroad. In the past few months, the ACLU has filed a number of FOIA requests that have resulted in the release of volumes of documents relating to torture, including a batch of FBI memos complaining about significant military abuses taking place at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.


Examining America's human rights record

Information gleaned from these documents form the basis of the charges in these cases, human rights lawyers said Tuesday.

In addition to Rumsfeld, ACLU officials said suits were also filed against Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, who at the time of the Abu Ghraib abuses was in charge of US military operations in Iraq. They also took legal action against Gen. Janis Karpinsky, in charge of the military police at Abu Ghraib, and Col. Thomas Pappas, in charge of the military intelligence interrogators. And they say they are continuing to investigate other s in the chain of command.

Two Pentagon-ordered reports have so far been completed - the Schlesinger and Taguba reports. Both found responsibility for the environment in which the abuses occurred, although not culpability, lay with higher-level officers. Another Pentagon investigation, instigated by the ACLU's release of the FBI memos criticizing military interrogation tactics at Guantanamo, was due out this week.

But on Monday, the Pentagon replaced a one-star general with a three-star general to head up that probe, and it is now not known when it will be completed. The one-star general, because of his lower rank, would not have been permitted to investigate the higher-ranked two-star general in charge of Guantanamo, Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, who is named in several of the FBI memos.


Moving up the ladder.

Up to this point, only lower-level enlisted men and women have been charged. The most notorious, Spc. Charles Graner, was convicted on several accounts of abuse and sentenced to a 10-year prison term by a court-martial in mid-January. Pvt. Lynndie England and Spc. Sabrina Harman still face charges, while six others have entered guilty pleas.

This past November, US human rights lawyers filed a similar case against Rumsfeld and former CIA director George Tenet in Germany, because its laws allow war crimes prosecutions across national boundaries. But on Feb. 10, the German court ruled the case would not go forward.

"I would suspect the suit is an attempt to improve accountability," says a former Army general who still works for the Pentagon. "And it's to send a message to all involved in such operations that they can be held accountable individually and institutionally for actions on their watch."

 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Brad Sallows on March 02, 2005, 03:48:57
Interesting.  I wonder if the activists have considered what it means if the suits go forward and the defendants win.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Torlyn on March 02, 2005, 04:02:13
Interesting.  I wonder if the activists have considered what it means if the suits go forward and the defendants win.

Perhaps we'd all feel better if the likes of Rumsfeld and his Pentagon cronies were locked up for human rights abuses, and Khadr would be able to return to Canada a free man.  That'd sure make my heart sing...  I wonder how any of these lawyers would feel had the medic been their son or daughter...  Where's the justice for the medic?

T
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on March 02, 2005, 04:46:17
OOooohhh the big, bad U.S. A.

Why does no one ever complain about the head-chopping (with a dull knife even) A.Q.?!

Don't you think that they may have committed an abuse or two?!

Or is it not cool to protest against their behaviour?!

Slim
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Infanteer on March 02, 2005, 05:05:24
Why does no one ever complain about the head-chopping (with a dull knife even) A.Q.?!

Because we are evaluating our own actions by our own Western standards, not our enemy's actions by our standards or our actions by our enemy's standards.

I guess the question is whether the standards are relevent anymore?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on March 02, 2005, 05:18:34
Because we are evaluating our own actions by our own Western standards, not our enemy's actions by our standards or our actions by our enemy's standards.

I think that that needs to change.

My $.02 is that the U.S. has shown remarkable restraint in dealing with Iraq. The insurgents (the press can't even call them rebels for f#ck sake) are waging a low-intensity war agains the new Iraqi regeim and the U.S. forces that are backstopping it.

-No uniforms
-No visible rank structure
-No respect or proper treatment of PW's
-No tolerance for anything different.

Unlike Vietnam I believe that the insurgents will ultimately loose this conflict. They'd loose it faster and with aloot less costto the U.S. if the U.S. did "take the gloves off" and became more agressive.

However, all the little monkey's who think that if we just act nice and say please the insurgency will subside, while hamstringing the U.S. military and intelligence apparatus even more. then, when something bad does happen, they scream and ***** that there was some great collosal failure on the part of the military or homeland security.

I don't know what's worse...Those people for talking **** in the first place, the press for picking it up and running with it or the average citizen for swallowing it hook line and sinker...

 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Glorified Ape on March 02, 2005, 13:08:13
Because we are evaluating our own actions by our own Western standards, not our enemy's actions by our standards or our actions by our enemy's standards.

I guess the question is whether the standards are relevent anymore?

Good point - when we start using the lowest common denominator as our standard of conduct, we've truly reached the bottom.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Wizard of OZ on March 02, 2005, 13:16:49
I have to agree with ya slim.

You have to wonder how much of a fight the others would put up if they were treated the way they are treating the Americans.   They know that if they are captured they may face some interagation but not torture or be-heading like americans face.   I think if the war was fought using their rules instead of Western ones (even if they are laxed at times) not so many people would sign up to play the game.   

But if we become like them how do you justify it.   How do you justify lowering yourself to that level just this one time?   

Curious for arguments sake how do you?

I don't know the answer, i like to hear your thoughts.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Thucydides on March 02, 2005, 13:39:30
Answer: we don't, not now and not ever

Ordinary Iraqis are the prime target for the barbaric treatment the Jihadis dish out, just as ordinary Afghanis were subject to the Taliban or ordinary Iranians have to deal with the religious "police". People can be held in check by fear for only so long, what the coalition forces offer by their civilized conduct is hope. While the Jihadis and their fellow travellers are "turned on" by the idea of using a gun to empower themselves at the expense of others (the infamous "Root Cause" of terrorism and crime), more and more we see the ordinary people cooperating with the authorities to root them out of their neighbourhoods.

On a larger scale, this is the same sort of action that led to the Orange revolution in the Ukraine and the current mass demonstrations in Lebanon to push out the Syrians.

If we were to sink to the levels of barbarism the Jihadis exhibit, the Iraqis would withdraw from the coalition in fear and disgust, and perhaps the fear of local terrorists would win out over the fear of the foreign armies. This is not a profitable way to do business.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Blue Max on March 02, 2005, 14:03:53
Well said a_majoor.  

Remember Wiz, that the criminal acts that some US service members are being accused of, and fewer already convicted of, are overshadowed by the techniques that most other countries in the middle east use to this day, without the light of camera's to shine on their actions.

Its only the 1st world countries that are worried and judged openly on the actions taken by their respective govt.

A worthy high standard to strive for, but not always attained. Notice I did not use the torture word.

B M.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Wizard of OZ on March 02, 2005, 16:18:28
Over shadowed or underscored? 

I think that the western press plays up the American misstreatment of prisioners a lot more then it does the Insuergent beheadings or their torture of the local population.

All i am asking is why do we hold our selves to this higher standard, when our enemy in this case does not play by the same set of rules.

If you can justify playing by the enemies rules how do you?  Would this weaken the insurgents knowing that they would be treated the same way that they are treating others?

Most of the attacks have been against the local population not against Americans although i am sure they are trying.  If you win the hearts of the people (as most would believe) the Americans are doing.  Could you not strike just as harshly against the insurgents without attacking the local population?

Remember this is spark thought not me saying we should start beheading people on national TV.  Eye for an eye type deal.  But how many cheeks do you have to turn.  Could part of this not be seen as weakness by the insurgents on the part of the Americans.

My personal opinion not one i will add here is quite different.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Sheep Dog AT on March 02, 2005, 16:30:13
"My personal opinion not one i will add here is quite different."

Where is the fun/constructive debate in that?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Wizard of OZ on March 02, 2005, 16:53:57
true but i will let my qustions stimiulate the grey matter for now and then when the time is right.  BOOM
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Wizard of OZ on March 02, 2005, 16:58:43
i don't know what is happening here but my computer is posting things twice.  Kinda like that double your airmiles thing, think of how fast i could get my 5th leaf.

 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on March 03, 2005, 01:46:56
If the U.S. had sunk to their lever they wouldn't have lost a single person...Just bombed the country out of existance and threatened to do the same to anyone who disagrres with them...But they didn't!

I'm not saying to sink to the same level as the trash that they're fighting...I AM advocating that they become realistic and not be hamstrung by special-interest groups that have no idea what's going on in the country, the war or the minds of their AQ "buddies"

Common sense!

Quote
Good point - when we start using the lowest common denominator as our standard of conduct, we've truly reached the bottom.

Ape...You're thinking like a cop when you're supposed to be thinking like a soldier. If that bothers you then I'd suggest a career change...

Slim
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Wizard of OZ on March 03, 2005, 17:49:27
I never thought you said "sink to the level of trash they are fighting" (if that last was directed at me)

In fact I do agree with most of what you have said and along with ape.  I to feel that if we lower our selves to that standard then all we have accomplished since the dawn of our nations goes out in the wash.

But you would have to wonder if they would be less hesitant to attack if they knew that if they were captured nasty things would happen.

The concept of total war is long gone as
1) munitions are to expensive
2) colateral damage makes the front page every time
3) dropping 5 million in bombs and doing 500 bucks in damage (broken mud huts) does not go well for the budget.    :P
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Kurhaus on March 03, 2005, 18:29:28
Is anyone familiar with the Citizenship act?   But it seems to me that if this kid was involved in an attack on US troops in Afghanistan (who BTW are working with Canadian troops in some AOR's) that this kid has "technically" taken up arms against his country.   I don't see how bailing him out of "Gitmo" is the Cdn governments problem and his lawyers should know that.   But torture crosses the line.   

Now in regards to torture, after reviewing several posts on this forum it seems that many of you have forgotten the reason why the US went into Iraq in the first place.   One reason was threat of Weapons of Mass Destruction but another reason was to "Free the Iraqi people from Sadams brutal rule" (i.e. torture, mass murder, etc)   

So to condone the use of torture as an "approved tactic" in the war on Iraqi insurgents would make the US no better then Sadams regime and go a long way to creating the next generation of terrorists.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: George Wallace on March 03, 2005, 18:32:22
Hope you weren't in court making that statement... ;D

Khadr was captured in Afghanistan.  Don't want him getting off on a technicality.....
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: 48Highlander on March 03, 2005, 18:43:19
I never thought you said "sink to the level of trash they are fighting" (if that last was directed at me)

In fact I do agree with most of what you have said and along with ape.   I to feel that if we lower our selves to that standard then all we have accomplished since the dawn of our nations goes out in the wash.

But you would have to wonder if they would be less hesitant to attack if they knew that if they were captured nasty things would happen.

The concept of total war is long gone as
1) munitions are to expensive
2) colateral damage makes the front page every time
3) dropping 5 million in bombs and doing 500 bucks in damage (broken mud huts) does not go well for the budget.      :P

The problem with using torture and "nasty things" is that for some reason they always seem to provide an admission of guilt, along with more names of "suspects" who need to be tortured so we can determine their guilt.  You give a skilled torturer an hour or two and he'll get you any admission you want from any random person you pick.  That pretty much defeats the idea behind our judicial system.  We've already got soldiers and cops trying to be Judge, Jurry, and Executioner, do we really need to encourage more such conduct by sanctioning the torture of prisoners who haven't even been found guilty of anything?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Wizard of OZ on March 04, 2005, 11:51:08
Ohh agreed with the that fact.

But sometimes fear is a greater weapon then fact.  Why do you think they bag the heads of those captured.  Not always for security.  Has a nasty effect on ones mental process, (like maybe a double tap).

Anyway i do agree that torture is out.  it would totally defeat the purpose of the US being there and us supporting them but to some degree in Iraq i think an eye for an eye has to come into the thoughts of those on the ground. 

Slim

None taken, if my skin was that thin i would not have survived 5 posts on this form.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on March 07, 2005, 00:25:27


Slim

None taken, if my skin was that thin i would not have survived 5 posts on this form.

 ;D :salute:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Rick_Donald on March 09, 2005, 12:11:35
Lawyer's = Liar's
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Glorified Ape on March 09, 2005, 17:02:22
Ape...You're thinking like a cop when you're supposed to be thinking like a soldier. If that bothers you then I'd suggest a career change...

Slim

Why? Would you suggest I obey an illegal order or issue such orders to my men? Because that's what I would be doing if I participated in or ordered the practices we're discussing here. I'd say we need fewer people in the forces willing to do that kind of tripe, not more.

I have no problem with employing the dirtiest tactics possible within the boundaries set for me by the CF but little "exceptions" tend to snowball into general practice if they're not nipped in the bud.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Infanteer on March 09, 2005, 17:13:23
What are we discussing, Torture?

If its torture, Western nations have frowned on it for centuries.   Neither the Police or the Military of a Liberal Democracy should resort to torture - its simply against our principles as Canadian citizens and we'd be doing our Country no service if we did.   There is a reasonable difference between swift and sure justice and unnecessary and cruel punishment.

That being said, I'm willing to bet that Khadr wasn't tortured, he was only interrogated and perhaps, considering who he is, handled roughly.   He's using a typical "4th Generation Warfare" tactic of using our weakness against us - he is playing on Western fears by trying to promote the belief that we're "putting people on the rack and ripping their finger nails out" in order to undermine our resolve.   Piss on him (and his unprincipled lawyers), I say.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Wizard of OZ on March 09, 2005, 17:26:40
He's using a typical "4th Generation Warfare" tactic of using our weakness against us - he is playing on Western fears by trying to promote the belief that we're "putting people on the rack and ripping their finger nails out" in order to undermine our resolve.  Piss on him (and his unprincipled lawyers), I say.

That i can totally agree with.  I hope this case goes no where but i bet he wins the lottery. 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Torlyn on March 09, 2005, 17:48:36
Why? Would you suggest I obey an illegal order or issue such orders to my men? Because that's what I would be doing if I participated in or ordered the practices we're discussing here. I'd say we need fewer people in the forces willing to do that kind of tripe, not more.

I have no problem with employing the dirtiest tactics possible within the boundaries set for me by the CF but little "exceptions" tend to snowball into general practice if they're not nipped in the bud.

Well said...

T
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Xfire on March 09, 2005, 18:21:04
yea, when hes free hes a terriost when hes in jail hes a Canadian citizen askin for a free ticket out...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on March 10, 2005, 00:05:50
That being said, I'm willing to bet that Khadr wasn't tortured, he was only interrogated and perhaps, considering who he is, handled roughly.   He's using a typical "4th Generation Warfare" tactic of using our weakness against us - he is playing on Western fears by trying to promote the belief that we're "putting people on the rack and ripping their finger nails out" in order to undermine our resolve.   Piss on him (and his unprincipled lawyers), I say.

Well said and straight to the mark!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Frankex on March 15, 2005, 13:27:06


If he's one of Canada's children, why is he overseas learning the ways of those who wish to destroy the ways of life in the western Christian Democratic countries. (just because your born here doesn't automatically mean you are Canadian)




wow i completely agree with you.

 
yea, when hes free hes a terriost when hes in jail hes a Canadian citizen askin for a free ticket out...

and wow i completely agree with you to. unfortunately that happens allot
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Brando304 on March 15, 2005, 17:39:35
Them being tortured is bad, but not as bad as them cuttin captured soldier's heads off!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Fishbone Jones on March 15, 2005, 21:35:25
I think he'll probably die of old age before this thread does  ::)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Pax on March 15, 2005, 22:40:01
Fully agree!
Fully agree! Too! To the media the way they showed this story is bais and the U.S. gov't has many good reasons to do arrest Khadr that the media can't know because it's top serect that type of thing.
Frankly I don't think Khadr was tortured and I don't think the U.S. tortures people.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on June 14, 2005, 16:45:46
Mounties uncover 'Al Qaeda' cache
Plans, tapes diaries seized at Pearson
Zaynab Khadr denies they belong to her

MICHELLE SHEPHARD
STAFF REPORTER

OTTAWAâ ”The RCMP and Canadian military believe they've discovered a vital cache of information on Al Qaeda that includes the whereabouts of wanted members and details of attacks on coalition forces in Afghanistan.

The information is allegedly contained in a laptop, dozens of DVDs, audiocassettes and the pages of diaries, seized by the RCMP officers who met Zaynab Khadr at Pearson airport with a search warrant as she arrived back in Canada in February, court documents state.

Khadr is the eldest daughter of a family that has admitted close ties to Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and whose patriarch was once believed to be the highest-ranking Canadian member of Al Qaeda. Her younger brother, Omar, is currently Canada's only known detainee in the American camp in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

With the three-month time limit allotted to the federal police force to hold the items having now expired, the RCMP must go to a Toronto court this Friday to persuade a judge to allow them to continue doing a forensic evaluation of the seized materials. But Khadr's lawyer Dennis Edney says the Mounties are on nothing more than a "fishing expedition," and will argue that Khadr is entitled to her possessions.

Khadr, 25, said in an interview yesterday that anything found on the laptop, except personal pictures and a few "cartoons" that she downloaded, are not hers. She says she bought her laptop second-hand about seven months before coming to Canada. The audiocassettes, described in court documents as providing "significant information regarding `after-battle action reports' of Al Qaeda and Taliban insurgents" involved in attacking coalition forces in Afghanistan, were found among her father's possessions after he was killed in 2003, Khadr said.

"I think it's my right to bring what I want since I'm not breaking any laws, so I decided to bring them," she said. "Although I don't know what's on them, I still thought I'd bring them."

Khadr has not been charged in Canada or Pakistan, where she lived with her young daughter and sister before returning to Scarborough to be with her mother and brothers.

The court documents state there are "still a number of steps" to be taken in the investigation, that cannot be disclosed, but that her written records are being studied by the RCMP's behavioural sciences unit for a "psychological analysis" and to determine if she is a "threat to society."

Among her possessions, the RCMP allege, are downloaded clips of bin Laden's voice and songs â ” one titled "I am a Terrorist" â ” which contain excerpts from speeches calling for the killing of Americans. There is also allegedly a video clip of a 2003 attack on a compound used by Westerners in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia and cassettes about insurgent attacks in Afghanistan. Canada has troops stationed in Afghanistan.

"(T)hey provide insights into the tactics, techniques and procedures by these insurgent groups," the documents allege. "They (also) provide time and place information regarding activities of key Al Qaeda and Taliban personalities who are presently at large and operating against coalition troops."

The seven-page affidavit by RCMP Sgt. Konrad Shourie, filed last month in the Ontario Court of Justice, provides rarely revealed details about the terrorism investigation.

The Khadr family has created its share of controversy. Khadr's father, Egyptian-born and Canadian citizen Ahmed Said Khadr, generated enough public pressure in 1996 to convince prime minister Jean Chrétien to intervene when he was facing charges in Pakistan in connection with the bombing of the Egyptian embassy in Islamabad. He died in a battle in Pakistan in October 2003. After the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks he was put on a list of suspected Al Qaeda terrorists. His family's connections to bin Laden were confirmed three years later with a documentary where his son, Abdurahman, admitted to growing up in an "Al Qaeda family."
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_PrintFriendly&c=Article&cid=1118700615668
---------------------------
 :rage:

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: KevinB on June 14, 2005, 16:58:25
Send her to Gitmo...


 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Island Ryhno on June 14, 2005, 17:01:17
Goddamn Khadr's, when in the name of blue hell do we get off the PC f*cking pot and deport these b*stards, grrrr. It's not mine, some terrorist guy just happened to leave Al Qaeda tactics et al on the laptop I purchased.   ::) Jimmy Hoffa dissapeared but these f*ckers are still here, give me a break.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: beach_bum on June 14, 2005, 17:07:42
"Someone else put that stuff on my laptop!  I didn't even know it was there!"
"I didn't know what was on the tapes...I just decided to haul them around the world for fun!"

C'mon, give me a break!   ::)  Pack them off!   :rage:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Trinity on June 14, 2005, 17:48:44
Gee...

in a time where airport security is tight and anything Al Qaeda
will be red flagged, she decided to just brings stuff into Canada
of this nature and didn't think anything of it?!  Right...

Jail
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Moose on June 14, 2005, 18:05:12
She lives in Scarborough too eh, if only I can find out where.  >:D I would like to personally see what those tapes and such contain.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on June 14, 2005, 23:11:58
She lives in Scarborough too eh, if only I can find out where.   >:D I would like to personally see what those tapes and such contain.

Eglinton and Midland area.   When they came back to Canada, they showed the house and mentioned the last name of the grandmother who owns the house, and well a quick search on canada411.ca, presto I found the address and yes it was the place the showed on tv.  Unfortunately it has been some time since i searched, so I no longer remember the name or exact address, just the general area.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: CH1 on June 15, 2005, 01:01:54
Now Now, be nice or you will be branded a racist.  Remember they have more rights under the charter, than we do.  Heaven forbid if we violate these "rites". (spelling changed to change meaning of word)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on June 15, 2005, 01:52:25
I hope to God that the judge who is reviewing the warrant is not some pc clown with strong ties to the Liberal party...Cause if he is you know what's going to happen!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: P-Free(Banned) on June 15, 2005, 02:15:04
Sounds like the Khadr family is still in the game despite their father being killed, their brother being jailed in Gitmo, another brother being killed in Afghanistan and a third one being paralyzed there fighting the Americans.

Is there anything they can do that will get them deported?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on June 15, 2005, 02:24:22
Is there anything they can do that will get them deported?

Vote Conservative...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: KevinB on June 15, 2005, 02:28:23
Vote Conservative...

I was thinking TAP-RACK-BANG  ;D
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: PeterLT on June 15, 2005, 02:31:26
Well well.....I suppose it's true. Canada is a terrorist haven. It's time folks shook their heads and slapped the person in the mirror. Unfortunately, the Canadian national sport is not hockey; it's apathy. So until there is a 911 style attack in Canada (hopefully in a Liberal riding) we will have to suffer the likes of the Khadrs.

Peter
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Moose on June 15, 2005, 11:03:24
Eglinton and Midland area.   When they came back to Canada, they showed the house and mentioned the last name of the grandmother who owns the house, and well a quick search on canada411.ca, presto I found the address and yes it was the place the showed on tv.  Unfortunately it has been some time since i searched, so I no longer remember the name or exact address, just the general area.


She lives in that area eh, if only i had a way to... Just kidding, it would have been an interesting listen (after getting it translated of course).
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Blackhorse7 on June 15, 2005, 11:18:06
We (Canada) have got got start integrating our border security better with the US.  I know, free country and all, but the steps that have been taken since 9/11 by this country are embarrasing.  What ever happened to those photo ID's for landed immigrants?  I haven't come across one yet.  And CSIS is a shell of what it should be in the sense of intelligence gathering capability...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Kunu on June 15, 2005, 11:25:16
Quote
Khadr, 25, said in an interview yesterday that anything found on the laptop, except personal pictures and a few "cartoons" that she downloaded, are not hers. She says she bought her laptop second-hand about seven months before coming to Canada. The audiocassettes, described in court documents as providing "significant information regarding `after-battle action reports' of Al Qaeda and Taliban insurgents" involved in attacking coalition forces in Afghanistan, were found among her father's possessions after he was killed in 2003, Khadr said.

"I think it's my right to bring what I want since I'm not breaking any laws, so I decided to bring them," she said. "Although I don't know what's on them, I still thought I'd bring them."

So similarly, if someone was toting around a laptop with child porn on it...

I just hope the appropriate people in the government/legal system realize how much of a bad precedent letting this one go will be, and finally say enough is enough with this "Al-Qaeda family". 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on June 15, 2005, 13:52:04
Here's a follow up article

Khadr laptop has terrorist files
Mountie: Daughter of Ahmed: Family lawyer says al-Qaeda 'action reports' available online
 
Joseph Brean
National Post

June 15, 2005

The RCMP discovered al-Qaeda and Taliban "action reports" and information about fugitive terrorists in materials seized at Toronto's airport from Zaynab Khadr as she returned from Pakistan in February, an RCMP officer alleges in a sworn affidavit.

A search of her computer also unearthed files of Arabic songs that include Osama bin Laden's voice and video clips of terrorists in action or making speeches, all of which are "cause for concern and require further investigation," according to the officer, Sergeant Konrad Shourie.

But the Mounties cannot yet return Ms. Khadr's laptop computer, the audiotapes or even her Arabic diary before the legal deadline, which passed last month, because they need more time to copy the information and analyze it.

A forensic analysis of the computer's data, for instance, will take "several more months," the affidavit says, and a psychological analysis of Ms. Khadr based on her diary could take even longer.

Ms. Khadr and her brother Abdullah are under RCMP investigation for participating in the activities of al-Qaeda, the terrorist organization of which their deceased father, Ahmed, was reputedly a high-ranking financier. They have not been charged.

Their younger brother, Omar, is detained at Guantanamo Bay after allegedly killing a U.S. medic in a firefight in Afghanistan. Abdurahman Khadr, another brother who claims to have attended al-Qaeda training camps, has publicly renounced the jihadist sympathies of his family.

Sgt. Shourie is to make his request for a deadline extension at a hearing in Toronto this Friday, at which he is to be cross-examined by Dennis Edney, a lawyer for the Khadr family.

Mr. Edney says the material should be returned promptly. "They are looking for information that can lead to terrorist charges against Zaynab Khadr, and my belief is that they have no basis for doing so," he said.

"If you've scanned the laptop and scanned the hard drive, and you've had it for three months, what more do you need? And what does it take for you to press charges?" Mr Edney said. "How long does it take to know if someone's a terrorist?"

Sgt. Shourie's affidavit also details a lengthy telephone correspondence between the RCMP and a different lawyer for Ms. Khadr, in which the police seemingly offered to return the materials in April, but could not co-ordinate a time and place.

In her luggage, Ms. Khadr also carried DVDs that were allegedly pirated, six audio tapes of patriotic songs and poems, and two Arabic books about bin Laden, the affidavit says.

The "after battle action reports" by al-Qaeda and Taliban fighters are allegedly contained on 16 cassette tapes seized from Ms. Khadr. According to Sgt. Shourie, the tapes have "significant interest and value" to the Department of National Defence, because they provide insight into the tactics of insurgent groups and they might show the whereabouts of fugitive members of al-Qaeda or the Taliban.

Mr. Edney said he has not heard these tapes, and that Sgt. Shourie's descriptions are too vague to say for sure what they contain.

"Are we talking about something that's off a newsreel? Are we talking about an al-Qaeda group discussion? It doesn't say that. I would have thought that if you had something more direct you would say that," he said.

The Toshiba laptop computer, under analysis in London, Ont., contains songs with such translated titles as I am a Terrorist and Strike and Kill the Infidels and also video clips from the Chechnyan conflict zone and the 2003 bombing of a British/American civilian compound in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, the affidavit says.

Mr. Edney said these items are poorly described, and that it is not known who made the videos -- whether a news agency, a private citizen or a participant in the attack.

"From my review of some of the stuff they're talking about, it's material one can get on the Internet or on TV," Mr. Edney said.

Sgt. Shourie's affidavit acknowledges that many of these clips can be freely downloaded from the Internet but says they are still "cause for concern."

Mr. Edney would not confirm Ms. Khadr's claim, reported this week by the Toronto Star, that she purchased the laptop second hand almost a year ago in Pakistan. Ms. Khadr could not be reached yesterday.
© National Post 2005
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: 2 Cdo on June 15, 2005, 14:34:47
Welcome to Kanada, a socialists dream and a terrorists paradise! :rage:

I'm positive our wonderful liberal government will do the right thing and suspend the RCMP officers who have obviously violated this fine upstanding citizens rights! :blotto:

I am rapidly losing faith in our country and the insanity that passes for decent government!  :-[
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: dutchie on June 15, 2005, 14:59:19
Are these 'people' Canadians? No? Why have they left the airport? Why are they not back in their dirthole homeland? If this family is not a threat to national security, then what is? Has the 'PC Disease' infected our society so thoroughly that it now trumps common sense? Why aren't people protesting this instead of Wal-Marts in South Van?

Like anything else, it will take an act of terrorism against Canadians to wake people up. You know, like someone putting a bomb on a plane and killing hundreds of Canadians in the name of......wait, that's already happened.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: 48Highlander on June 15, 2005, 15:04:31
Ya know, I hate to play devils advocate in a case like this, but you gotta admit that the mounties aren't handling this very well.   I mean, three months of looking at these materials, and they still can't find something to charge her with?   How the hell is that possible?   They've had more than enough time to dig up information from which they can lay charges.   Once they've sharged her, the materials become evidence, and can be held at least untill the end of the trial.   Seing as how it'd probably take a year for her case to go to court, that would give them more than enough time to dig up anything they may have missed.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Sheep Dog AT on June 15, 2005, 15:08:21
Maybe they could charge her for having copywritten material (DVD's).
lol
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on June 15, 2005, 16:10:12
Quote,
I mean, three months of looking at these materials, and they still can't find something to charge her with?  How the heck is that possible? 

...its called investigating and 3 months is a drop in the bucket.
Think about it, do we really want a quick charge that her lawyer somehow gets thrown out and then have to listen to her on a soapbox?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on June 16, 2005, 08:48:34
I am of the opinion that there is some backroom dealing WRT this issue at the political level (although heaven knows what the angle is though)

It hardly matters as if the Mounties are being hamstrung by the govt wqe can all scream till we're blue in the face and it won't do a lick of good.

After all the Lieberals have survived an event that would have toppled most govts...They must be feeling pretty invincible right about now...

"Welcome to Canada. The amount of tax-free subsidy you get depends on you terms of service in the terrorist organization of your choice"

Oh God I'm so fed up with these people!

Slim
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on June 18, 2005, 16:38:47
RCMP can hold items of Khadr family member, judge rules

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/06/18/khadr-zaynab050618.html
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: George Wallace on June 18, 2005, 17:22:35
We have the technology!

If her Lawyer does succeed in the requests to get her possessions back, do it.  Copy her tapes and then wipe the originals, giving her back her original tapes with nothing on them and then take the copies to analyse.  Give her back her laptop that she failed to claim as a purchase on a trip outside of the country and charge her tax on it.  Clean her harddrive for her for free, after copying it and then analyse the copies at your liesure.  Photocopy her diaries and give her back her original.  Simple....copy all her tapes, CDs, DVDs and Hard Drives.....preform a free cleaning of them and give her back her originals.....She gets back her original items in their original state - clean;  ;D  what more could her legal eagle want?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Kunu on June 19, 2005, 23:57:59
Quote
If her Lawyer does succeed in the requests to get her possessions back, do it.  Copy her tapes and then wipe the originals, giving her back her original tapes with nothing on them and then take the copies to analyse.  Give her back her laptop that she failed to claim as a purchase on a trip outside of the country and charge her tax on it.  Clean her harddrive for her for free, after copying it and then analyse the copies at your liesure.  Photocopy her diaries and give her back her original.  Simple....copy all her tapes, CDs, DVDs and Hard Drives.....preform a free cleaning of them and give her back her originals.....She gets back her original items in their original state - clean;    what more could her legal eagle want?

And of course, Ms. Khadr should not mind this service at all, as she definately could not have any use for material she was completely unaware of, right?  ;D
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on June 20, 2005, 00:14:05
I hear you man, I hear you.

The US of A is starting to look like a REALLY good place to move too. I wonder if the USMC is hiring.

Have you seen this thread?  Specifically this post?
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,28732.msg228457.html#msg228457

Sounds good to me 8)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: CH1 on June 25, 2005, 13:14:10
This is funny! I have another reason to get out of bed tomorow.  Funny how in another thread the thought of terrorists in Canada is being heralded as ridiculous.  But then Ms. Khadr is a voter  not a terrorist.  Makes you wonder if they can bring their game plan on a computer, into the country, what else is here.  Makes me wonder as to how many Sleepers there is in Canada & what is their target list like?

Cheers.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on June 25, 2005, 17:29:04
 Makes me wonder as to how many Sleepers there is in Canada & what is their target list like?

Cheers.

Remember the street parties in Scarborough during 911? I'd say there's a good whack of them here...Probably fill a shopping mall there are so many...Then you could lock the doors and blow it up!

they are our enemy too!

Slim
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: TCBF on June 25, 2005, 18:17:08
I think we can learn from other cultures - the Japanese, for example.  I think we could employ Ms Khadr as a 'comfort woman' at CFS Alert.

As for the laptop, in Ontario, the gun dealer being arrested with his wife had all of his home files and electronic data siezed by the OPP.  He can now get it back, but it is not in it's original format, and he must buy the appropriate program from the OPP!

But, only white, middle aged, firearms enthusiasts get treated like that.  The Khadrs will get treated like gold.

Tom
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Polish Possy on June 25, 2005, 19:48:15
with all these "sleepers" does that make Canada a lesser target of terrorism or would it make it an easier target ?, And isn't the only terrorist attacks that we have had come from  Québec It is a double eedgedsword we could kick Ms.Khadr but would that create an anger towards us (Canada) Oh well I think that they will let her go but there will be a close eye on her and the people from her laptop maybe try to Identify the people in her personal pictures and watch them too ?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: TCBF on June 25, 2005, 20:00:36
Depends.  Most successful program is to watch suspects, but kill terrorists.

Tom
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Cdn Blackshirt on June 30, 2005, 11:01:43
Depends.   Most successful program is to watch suspects, but kill terrorists.

Tom

That's fine.....let's watch them while they're in Pakistan or Egypt or elsewhere.....not in Scarborough.

I'm all for a tolerant society that allows various points of view, but as soon as you not only invite, but then protect the rights of a Fifth Column within your country whose primary cultural objective is to destroy your society, you have to draw a frigging line in the sand. 

This is political correctness at it's most absurd.

With governments seemingly hamstrung, I think it is inevitable at some point in time you're going to see an "Operation Swordfish"-like entity that starts taking matters into their own hands.



Matthew.    :salute:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: TCBF on June 30, 2005, 11:36:09
Time for a REAL "Neighbourhood Watch?

 ;D

Tom
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Blackhorse7 on June 30, 2005, 12:28:56
There are a lot of American companies in Canada that would be easy targets for a terrorist cell to hit in lieu of having to try and crack American security.  They still sting American interests with virtually no trouble... food for thought.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: 48Highlander on June 30, 2005, 21:20:03
There are a lot of American companies in Canada that would be easy targets for a terrorist cell to hit in lieu of having to try and crack American security.   They still sting American interests with virtually no trouble... food for thought.

Except that terrorism is about creating terror.  Hitting a Canadian company might have a slight economic impact on the US, however, the majority of US citizens would be uneffected, and such an attack would only create more support for the "war on terror".  There's plenty of apologists out there claiming that the US "deserved" to be attacked.  What happens if the terrorists hit a country that not even these letie whackos could say has harmed them?  It wouldn't make any sense for them to target us if their goals is to harm the US.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: WR on June 30, 2005, 21:48:20
It is a fact that the government will not admit, Canada second to the USA, has more terrorist factions than any other Western country. Due to our geography (close to the US) and our large immigrant population, Canada is an attractive home base for zealots. The terrorist operator or support cells can exist in relative anonymity in our large cities. It is, at times, impossible to discern who is a sympathizer or who the â Å“real dealâ ? is. The only way to defeat terrorism here in Canada is an competent intelligence agency and laws like the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act to hinder and make much to difficult to reside in Canada.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on June 30, 2005, 22:13:02
Now Now, be nice or you will be branded a racist.   Remember they have more rights under the charter, than we do.   Heaven forbid if we violate these "rites". (spelling changed to change meaning of word)

A thought on the 'sleepers' lying in wait in Canada...

Call me old fashioned, old school or whatever, but its people like this who should just simply dissappear off the face of the earth. As for the govt, they should just say they have left the country to an undisclosed location (Davey Jones' Locker). I would not even blink if they were 'incinerated' in a single vehicle car accident. Ya gotta exercise cancers like this , not cave into it's every whim.

They should get no publicity at all. They would never be missed. A leopard can't change its spots, and the loyality this scum has for terrorism and its goals will never change.

But wait, the whinging left, and the govt will probably give them a new house, welfare, and a new computer to boot, maybe throw in a car too, what the hell. How about an appology with an invite for other terr family members to immigrate to Canada, and spread their hatred for us.

I hate this PC world. One day there will be a 180 degree turnaround with it all, but thats not going to happen in my lifetime.

This truly disgusts me.

Wes
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: WR on June 30, 2005, 22:54:29
This is response to Blackhorse7's post on 15 June. It is not a widely known fact, but the US Homeland Security and Canadian Border Agencies have access to each others databases. Watch for targets can be placed in each systems where subjects will be intercepted by either country. There is Canadian Law Enforcement Officers who work in their offices as they do in ours.

The Permanent Residents Cards are out there, unless you live in a border city, I doubt it would be a piece of ID the landed immigrant would carry day to day.

For those of you who think that 3 months is to long or why don't we kick them out or jail them etc. Why do that? Why not have constant surveillance on them. Find out who they call, who they talk to, who they socialize with and start files on them. I doubt the Khadr's can fart without it making it into a surveillance log somewhere.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Polish Possy on July 01, 2005, 21:25:17
A thought on the 'sleepers' lying in wait in Canada...

Call me old fashioned, old school or whatever, but its people like this who should just simply dissappear off the face of the earth. As for the govt, they should just say they have left the country to an undisclosed location (Davey Jones' Locker). I would not even blink if they were 'incinerated' in a single vehicle car accident. Ya gotta exercise cancers like this , not cave into it's every whim.

They should get no publicity at all. They would never be missed. A leopard can't change its spots, and the loyality this scum has for terrorism and its goals will never change.

But wait, the whinging left, and the govt will probably give them a new house, welfare, and a new computer to boot, maybe throw in a car too, what the heck. How about an appology with an invite for other terr family members to immigrate to Canada, and spread their hatred for us.

I hate this PC world. One day there will be a 180 degree turnaround with it all, but thats not going to happen in my lifetime.

This truly disgusts me.

Wes

wow I couldn't have said it better my self ..... I wouldn't mind if some of these terrorist cells happen to disappear off the face of the earth ...... Heres an Idea track down the cells then send them a card saying they won like a free trip to the white house but load them up in a bus and make a accident happen ....if you follow


Now don't be calling me a racist .... I enjoy other nations and other cultures ... but when those nations and cultures start blowing things up in my country I am not to happy about that....... Dam double  sided sword  :-\
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Blackhorse7 on July 02, 2005, 08:59:59
JJaques,

I'm a current Police Officer, and I didn't even know that.  Good info.

That being said however, I'll run a scenario for you all.  True story, I might add.  I arrested a guy a couple of weeks ago.  He provided an alias that had a warrant.  When told this, he gave his "true" identity, and further warrants were found.  He said he had dual citizenship, but I had doubts.  It was the weekend, and I am not kidding, it took me three hours on the phone with Immigration, Canandian Citizenship Registry, and the Douglas Border Crossing to get anything on the guy.  And at the end of all that, nobody still could tell me if the guy had Canadian Citizenship or not.  Immigration would not extend a warrant to hold him, and the judge let him go. 

So, if you arrest a bad guy on the weekend, hope he's Canadian.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Sheep Dog AT on July 02, 2005, 17:40:08
oh I'd be dropping an anonymous tip to the papers on that one.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: TCBF on July 03, 2005, 04:45:12
"So, if you arrest a bad guy on the weekend, hope he's Canadian.'

It does not matter what nationality he is.  If it happened in Canada, you can arrest him.  Were these 'Non Return Warrants'?  Meaning they won't pay to fly him back?  Obviosly, the guy didn't have a hooker in his trunk or anything..

Tom
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Sheep Dog AT on July 03, 2005, 05:30:38
After more thought, if this guy has warrants for anything alias or otherwise couldn't you hold him over the weekend?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Blackhorse7 on July 03, 2005, 08:51:22
Sorry, I should have clarified...

The warrants were all local unendorsed warrants, which for those not in the know means that I have to present the joker in front of a Justice of the Peace, and either seek further detention, or release.  We sought to hold him, but he can only be held over until such time as he can appear before a Judge.  That was Monday, and the Judge released him.  The immigration thing was entirely separate.  But you would think that in this day and age, particularly after 9 11 ( :salute:), that I should be able to call up a 24hr centre, give my badge number, and ask "Is this fool a Canadian?" and get a reply right on the spot.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Sheep Dog AT on July 03, 2005, 18:24:41
Thanks for the clarification.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Cdn Blackshirt on July 03, 2005, 20:36:25
Sorry, I should have clarified...

The warrants were all local unendorsed warrants, which for those not in the know means that I have to present the joker in front of a Justice of the Peace, and either seek further detention, or release.   We sought to hold him, but he can only be held over until such time as he can appear before a Judge.   That was Monday, and the Judge released him.   The immigration thing was entirely separate.   But you would think that in this day and age, particularly after 9 11 ( :salute:), that I should be able to call up a 24hr centre, give my badge number, and ask "Is this fool a Canadian?" and get a reply right on the spot.

That's insane....

I'll second the "anonymous tip to newspaper/TV show" suggestion....



Matthew.   :salute:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Blackhorse7 on July 04, 2005, 00:02:29
I would do it, but I turned about as red as this screen, and ranted for two days straight about how sh**ty our security is since 9 11.  They would know it was me right away.  That day still burns in my mind.  I damn near quit and joined up in the CF again.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: WR on July 04, 2005, 18:57:44
Cdn Blackshirt I can sympathize with your plight. Unfortunately Immigration is saddled with several rules and regulations dealing with privacy. In my neck of the woods there is good cooperation with Immigration-Customs-Police. That is something that would not happen here (I hope), but again when dealing with the Federal government bureaucracy...you never know. What I have done is foster some friendships/contacts with all concerned, so if I need confirmation or help with something I am working on most times it is a call away. What I can suggest is collect all the info and forward it to your local IBET team or Inland Immigration, but make sure it is Mon-Fri so you can be sure to get in contact with them....oh ya and not after 3pm they will be long gone!!!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Dare on July 17, 2005, 17:20:30
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45279

Quote
Hollywood to fete
'son of al-Qaida'
Canadian jihadist tied to bin Laden
cashes in with movie deal
Posted: July 15, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com


Abdurahman Khadr (courtesy: CBC)
A Hollywood film in the works will depict a Canadian formerly detained at Guantanamo as a reformed young man who now rejects terrorism and his family's ties to al-Qaida.

But there's evidence 21-year-old Abdurahman Khadr's true story doesn't fit the feel-good script proposed by Paramount Pictures, according to Andrew Walden, writing in FrontPage magazine.

Khadr is the son of Ahmed Saeed Khadr, a Canadian citizen whom the U.S. has accused of having direct ties to Osama bin Laden. He also is the brother of Omar Khadr, who, as WorldNetDaily first reported exclusively, is accused of killing a U.S. Special Forces medic.

Another brother is Abdullah Khadr, who, according to a Taliban spokesman, was the suicide bomber who killed Canadian Forces Corporal Jamie Murphy in Kabul Jan. 27.

Omar Khadr was released from the prison for terrorism suspects at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, because the U.S. had no charges and believed he no longer was an intelligence asset.

Abdurahman Khadr returned to Canada in October after he was captured in Afghanistan and escaped the CIA, with whom he had made a deal to provide information undercover. That included a stint as a prisoner at Guantanamo and a mission to Bosnia, where he abandoned the CIA by entering the Canadian embassy in Bosnia.

After returning home, Abdurahman admitted he had been trained at an "al-Qaida-related camp" for three months in 1998, but played down his family's suspected ties to bin Laden.

"There's lots of organizations in Afghanistan that are connected to al-Qaida, but are different," Khadr said in Toronto last December, according to Reuters. "It's not training to kill Americans, it's just training to go and fight against the Northern Alliance."

The movie deal, according to Daily Variety, employs Oscar-nominated screenwriter Keir Pearson to write the script.

Abdurahman could earn as much as $500,000 from the project, scheduled to debut next year. According to Variety, the film apparently will follow the storyline that makes Khadr "look best."

Vincent Newman, president of Vincent Newman Entertainment, which owns the rights, calls it a "classic black sheep story -- a story about the rebel of the family."

The producer is considering actor Johnny Depp as the lead, Variety says.

Incompatible with the facts?

But Walden says that while the "tale of a young rebel who never reconciled himself to his family's extremist ways may set the hearts of Hollywood producers aflutter ... it would be difficult to tell a story more incompatible with the facts of Khadr's life."

Walden points out that when the Taliban captured Kabul in 1996, the family moved from Canada to Afghanistan, where they could be closer to bin-Laden.

Abdurahman and his older brother Abdullah attended an al-Qaida training camp at Khalden, Afghanistan, where they received a grounding in terrorist ideology and weapons training.

The Khadr family was so close to bin Laden that eight months before the 9-11 attacks, the Khadrs attended the wedding of bin Laden's son, Mohammed.

In 1999, bin Laden attended the wedding of Abdurahman's sister Zaynab, who spoke openly of the family's connection to bin Laden in a February 2004 interview.

Describing bin-Laden as a family man who loves children, Zaynab stressed that "it was very important for him to sit with his kids every day at least for two hours in the morning after their morning prayer. They sit and read a book at least. It didn't have to be something religious. He loved poetry very much."

Abdurahman's brother, Abdullah, said of bin-Laden in a CBC News in March: "He never jokes, very quiet person, very polite," adding he can "be a saint, something like a saint. I see him as a very peaceful man."

Walden says Abdurahman appeared in "full confessional mode" in a CBC documentary on the Khadr family this spring, saying: "I admit it that we are an al-Qaida family. We had connections to al-Qaida." He also stressed that he disobeyed his father's directives to become a suicide bomber.

"I am a person that was raised to become an al-Qaida, was raised to become a suicide bomber, was raised to become a bad person, and I decided on my own that I do not want to be that," he has said.

But Walden finds many inconsistencies. After his 2002 capture in Afghanistan, Abdurahman was turned over to U.S. forces where in an interrogation he boasted close connections to the top echelons of al-Qaida leadership.

The CIA then offered a bonus of $5,000 for his cooperation and an additional monthly stipend of $3,000 for showing American investigators the locations of some al-Qaida members' former Kabul safe houses.

"Abdurahman agreed. The story of a chastened militant working with the U.S. in atonement for his past sins was born," says Walden. "But the story does not withstand serious scrutiny."

When Abdurahman's CIA handlers sent him to Bosnia a few months later, he became free of U.S. confinement for the first time and decided to get out, despite being showered with money.

Through the help of his grandmother and a lawyer, herself an al-Qaida sympathizer, Abdurahman made his way back to Toronto after walking away from the CIA and entering the Canadian embassy in Bosnia.

"Since then, Abdurahman has focused his energies on undermining U.S. efforts in the war on terror," Walden says.

Beyond complaining about the "unjust" treatment of his "al-Qaida family," he has taken to railing against the "harsh" conditions at Guantanamo Bay and claims that detainees are mostly harmless: "80 percent of people that went to Afghanistan. ... They've had enough. If you put them back in their countries they won't do anything."

Zaynab insists that her brother never had any intention of cooperating with the CIA:

"As long as he didn't really help them. If he did, I'd be really ashamed of him," she said. "If he just fooled them, I don't mind it. If he really did something, I'd be ashamed of him."

Abdurahman's mother Maha agrees: "He used his intelligence and it's okay," she said.

Abdurahman, for his part, has cast doubt on his made-for-T.V. conversion, Walden says.

"I'm my father's son," he explained in the CBC interview.

His father was killed in October 2003 in a gun battle with the Pakistani military.

In a recent interview, Abdurahman addressed his father's death. "To my father and to my mother, this is the ultimate in being an Islamic family because to them, dying all of us in the war against America, you know, is just being the top family because we all died in a way, you know, in fighting against American you know. Can you ask for more than that?"

The father was arrested in 1995 in connection with a bomb at the Egyptian embassy in Islamabad - a suicide attack that killed 17. According to the Ottawa Citizen, a Canadian Security Intelligence Service report says Khadr is "alleged to have moved ... money through" Human Concern International, a Canadian relief agency, "from Afghanistan to Pakistan to pay for the operation."

The Khadr family's relationship with the Canadian government was an embarrassment to former Prime Minister Jean Chretien, who once intervened on behalf of the father.

Chretien pressed then-Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto during a trade mission to give Khadr due process in Canada.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Infanteer on July 17, 2005, 17:41:33
What's the title of the Film, Team America: World Police II?

Durka Durka.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: archer on July 17, 2005, 17:47:02
What's the title of the Film, Team America: World Police II?

Durka Durka.

With Marionette dolls? I can hardly wait! This whole issue makes me pound on the keyboard, really hard, as I'm typing.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: KevinB on July 17, 2005, 17:56:25
Anyone going to Toronto on leave - I'll lend you an AR10  ;)
 
 Short Film - TEAM CANADA INTERNAL POLICE  :threat:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Baloo on July 17, 2005, 18:22:52
TEASER

*Opening Scene - Four Taliban / Al Qaeda fighters are nestled in the rocks overlooking a valley in Afghanistan. Below, are five Humvee's travelling down a dusty path. Abdurahman Khadr (Sean Penn), Abdullah Khadr (Samuel L. Jackson), Omar Khadr (Susan Serandon) and Ahmed Saeed Khadr (Christopher Walken) watch as the Humvee's stop as a herd of goats are shepherded past them. The American commander of the convoy (Sean Bean) gets out of the lead vehicle and shouts at the shepherd "to get a move on, Abdul". The Afghan nods tiredly and shuffles forward. Then, he whips off his garments, to reveal two AKs, and begins firing wildly at the Humvee column. The four in the mountains open up. The fighting is intense. Americans go down. The shepherd is killed by a flying goat head, when his flock is obliderated by an M203. Sean Bean is hit in the stomach, and with bullets bouncing all around, comments to the medic, that the blood in his mouth "tastes like strawberries". Suddenly, a Chinook helicopter is seen flying overhead, with Gen. Tommy Franks (Keanu Reeves), cigar in mouth, shooting the insurgents in the mountain with the chain-gun from the gunnery position. Col. Douglas Seemstrom (Sylvester Stallone), a grizzled war hero, just wanting to get his tour over with, leads a glamorous bayonet charge up the mountain, with the sly Spanish PFC. Juan Gonzalez (Johnny Depp) saying such random phrases as "AIE YI YI" and "No me guesta...thees sheeit ees eentense, mayen" during the fight. Omar is killed, by a well placed 5.56 round to the forehead. In his dying words, he tells Abdullah to "Avenge me...my son...", which not only confuses Abdullah, but makes him angry. He stands up, and with one arm, fires an RPG, which hits Seemstrom in his face, ending his life, right after he had the chance to say, "I feel secure enough in my own survival, that Gonzalez, I will be the godfather to your child". A heart wrenching moment. Ahmed and Abdullah retreat to the mountains, leaving the wounded Abdurahman behind. His father told him he would be right back...he was just going to pick up some freedom fries. Abdurahman engages Tommy Franks in vicious hand to hand combat, all the while Franks keeps the cigar in his mouth. Franks wins, and captures Abdurahman. His is put in the back of the Chinook, where Franks tells the pilot to "book 'im, Danno". They fly off into the sunset...which really means he is going to Gitmo.

*Fast Clip - James Bond style torture scenes in Gitmo (ala, the North Korean interrogation), all the while "Eye of the Tiger" plays in the background. Inside the prison, he meets tough, reformed terrorist Saeed Bin Hassam (Martin Short), the wise-cracking man who, beneath his facade of hatred for the Yanqui peeg-dogs, has a heart of gold. Abdurahman sees the error of his ways.*

*Dramatic Climax - Abdurahman tells his father and brother, "he is out". Cue the camera quickly closing to the fathers eyes, and the furrowing of the unibrow. Abdullah (Jackson), sproting a new afro, says simply "You one dead mutha fucka". Hilarity ensues.*

*Cut to random explosions, screams, and shots of Abdurahman fleeing from technicals in the desert flats of the Mojave. "Kill Bill" style swordplay between Abdurahman and Abdullah. Various explosions. Ahmed overlooking his son in the hospital, fiftenn dead security guards outside the room. Abdurahman is in a coma. Ahmed reaches for the plug...A HAND GRABS HIS WRIST. "When Abdullah said he killed me last...he lied." DUH DUH DUH!*

Also Starring:

Jean Reno - the evil French connection. May find himself wearing a beret at some point.

Angelina Jolie - the woman he loved.

Al Pacino - the wise cracking, overly hated, golf playing Jean Chretien. Why him? The mouth thing...you know...

COMING, 2006...

"The Camel Rider Always Rings Twice"
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Kunu on July 17, 2005, 19:23:56
Anyone going to Toronto on leave - I'll lend you an AR10   ;)
 
 Short Film - TEAM CANADA INTERNAL POLICE   :threat:

Ya, and also give me a heads up if ya need a pad to crash at.   ;)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Infanteer on July 17, 2005, 19:38:19
Baloo, did you just make that crap up?!?  That's fricken hilarious.... :D
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: MikeM on July 17, 2005, 19:52:15
Kilo Mike, can we use your place as a firebase? :D
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Baloo on July 17, 2005, 19:54:08
Well Infanteer, it was a rather quiet Sunday afternoon...with a little bit too much time on my hands.  ;)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Kunu on July 18, 2005, 02:08:22
Kilo Mike, can we use your place as a firebase? :D

Hmm...we're aren't using the backyard for too much these days...   ;D

Anyhow, I just hate it when grossly skewed movies become society's default source of knowledge for things (eg. Starship Troopers, Disney flicks, etc.).  I'm sure I'm only the only one who's got a bad feeling about this.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: the 48th regulator on July 18, 2005, 02:35:37
eff me baloo,

freaking priceless...

Who gets to play the wee hadji kid that finds himself on the outside of the gate at gitmo, with a tear in his eye waiting for when his brothers get released...all the while the song "fields of athenrye" is played by U2 in the background....

Clucking movie deal...and I can't even get an invite to the opening to the museum...harrumph...

dileas

tess

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: B.McTeer on July 18, 2005, 02:51:10
ballo hots off to you you made my medical leave that much more entertaining lol. I think i fell of my chair almost to the point of tears (not to good for the hernia eh lol) oh man that is priceless you should sell that lol. ROFLMFAO
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on October 29, 2005, 21:51:13
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/WarOnTerrorism/2005/10/28/1281752-ap.html
 
Utah soldier and widow win default judgment in lawsuit against Khadr estate
   
SALT LAKE CITY (AP) - A Utah soldier wounded in Afghanistan and the widow of a soldier mortally wounded in the same battle have won a default judgment against the estate of a Toronto man whose son allegedly was involved in the battle.

The $10-million US lawsuit alleged Ahmad Sa'id Khadr was an al-Qaida financier who failed to control his then-15-year-old son, Omar, and prevent him intentionally harming others. The Khadr estate assets were frozen by the U.S. and Canadian governments and the United Nations.
U.S. army Sgt. 1st Class Layne Morris of South Jordan, Utah, lost his right eye in the July 27, 2002, battle. Three other soldiers were wounded and Sgt. 1st Class Christopher James Speer, 28, died 10 days later from his injuries.

Morris said Khadr hid inside a compound waiting for U.S. troops to come inside and tossed a grenade.
U.S. District Judge Paul Cassell in Salt Lake City told the plaintiffs Tuesday to submit evidence within 20 days that establishes the amount of damages they expect.

"This is my way of continuing the war against terrorism," said Morris, housing director for West Valley City.
"And hopefully there will be money for Christopher Speer's widow and their two young children."
Morris's lawyer, Donald Winder, said he will seek money from the funds that were frozen.

Omar Khadr is being held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, over protests of the Canadian government that he is a juvenile.
Morris's lawsuit said the boy's father, collected money from an Islamic front charity to run an al-Qaida training camp in Afghanistan. He was believed killed in a gunbattle in Pakistan.

His widow returned to Canada to seek treatment for their youngest son, Karim Khadr, for wounds suffered in the same firefight that killed his father.
In April, Cassell issued an order allowing Morris to publicize the legal action in Toronto, where the Khadr family lives, after their lawyer refused to accept a copy of the lawsuit.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on October 29, 2005, 21:58:10
REGARDING THE ABOVE ARTICLE.

Gee, that's too bad.

That family is the proven enemy of my country.

End.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on October 29, 2005, 22:03:49
For some irony, put Khadr in the search feature and check the " did you mean to search for?" question.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Wolfe on October 30, 2005, 02:07:41
For some irony, put Khadr in the search feature and check the " did you mean to search for?" question.

Hahahah ,this is what i do with those fu***rs :gunner:.......... >:(

Sorry, i just read this thread and it made me angry to know what our government is allowing like "people", if i can really call them by that word, to live in our great country Canada.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on October 30, 2005, 21:56:15
Looks good on them, maybe the US authorities would like to take them and prosecute them for conspiring to kill US soldiers or something to that effect.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: North Star on November 04, 2005, 20:39:40
Sigh...

Good Old Iron Mike Harris wouldn't have allowed that family to claim OHIP for the kid...even if it did mean getting sued.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on November 07, 2005, 22:08:19


U.S. military charges Omar Khadr with murder

CTV.ca News Staff

The U.S. military has laid formal charges -- including one of murder -- against Omar Ahmed Khadr, a Canadian citizen imprisoned at the U.S. Guantanamo Bay, Cuba facility for suspected terrorists.

Some of those charges could possibly leave him facing the death penalty, one of Khadr's Canadian lawyers told CTV.ca on Monday.

"Potentially he is," said Nathan Whitling of Edmonton. "The U.S. has not taken the death penalty off the table. The Canadian government has formally requested that they do so many times, and they still haven't done so."

In some cases, the U.S. has done so, "so it's of concern they haven't done so yet," he said.

Khadr, 19, is "charged with conspiracy to commit offenses triable by military commission; murder by an unprivileged belligerent; attempted murder by an unprivileged belligerent; and aiding the enemy," said a U.S. Defense Dept. news release on Monday.

An "unprivileged belligerent" is someone who isn't a member of a regular army, Whitling said.

The department said Khadr has the presumption of innocence, has the right not to testify without inference of guilty and must be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

While the U.S. government will provide counsel, Khadr has the right to civilian counsel, but at his expense.

However, Whitling said there are major procedural issues with these military commissions.

Some of those issues will be decided in a U.S. Supreme Court case involving Salim Ahmed Hamdan, a former driver for al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden. Hamdan is being held in Guantanamo Bay. The U.S.'s highest court agreed Monday to hear the case.

Here are some of Whitling's concerns:

    * The use of secret evidence and the ability of the commission to hear such evidence in the absence of both the defendant and his counsel
    * The fact Omar Khadr committed his alleged crimes when he was only 15
    * The application of torture at Guantanamo Bay and the fact that any such evidence gathered would be admissible.
    * Khadr was denied counsel while being interrogated
    * His capacity to respond because his physical and mental health have deteriorated
    * The lengthy delay between the alleged offence and the date charges were laid.
    * Limited ability to marshall evidence and call witnesses

On CTV's Newsnet, Amnesty International's Jumana Musa said her organization would like to see the commissions scrapped.

Arrested in Afghanistan

Khadr, 19, was born in Toronto. His family moved to Peshawar, Pakistan when he was four.

He was arrested in Afghanistan in 2002 by the U.S. military. They declared him an enemy combatant and shipped him to Guantanamo Bay.

At the time of his arrest, Khadr was 15. He is accused of throwing a hand grenade at U.S. soldiers.

One soldier died in the alleged attack and three others were wounded, with one soldier losing an eye.

Late last month, a Utah judge issued a default judgment against the estate of Ahmad Sa'id Khadr, Omar's father.

The lawsuit alleged the elder Khadr, a Canadian citizen, was an al Qaeda financier who failed to control his son.

Ahmad Khadr died in a 2003 gun battle with authorities in Pakistan province of Waziristan, which is next to the border with Afghanistan. His youngest son Karim was left paralyzed after being struck with a bullet.

Karim's mother brought her son back to Canada for treatment in the fall of 2004.

Ahmad's eldest son Abdullah is on the run, while Abdurahman Khadr is on the outs with his family after admitting to being a mole at Guantanamo Bay.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051107/omar_khadr_051107/20051107?hub=TopStories
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: PPCLI WO on November 08, 2005, 22:57:57
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/11/08/omarkhadr051108.html

Ottawa accused of not helping Canadian held at Guantanamo charged with murder

Last Updated Tue, 08 Nov 2005 20:24:49 EST
CBC News

Omar Khadr's mother and members of his legal team say the 19-year-old Canadian is facing a "sham" trial at the hands of the U.S. military and that the Canadian government isn't helping.
 
 
"The Americans are gods now," said Maha Elsamnah, Khadr's mother. "They make the law. Nobody can tell them anything."

Elsamnah says Ottawa is doing nothing for her son who is accused of murder, attempted murder and aiding the enemy.

Khadr was the only survivor of a strike on a suspected al-Qaeda compound in Afghanistan three years ago. He is charged with killing U.S. Sgt. Christopher Speer on July 7, 2002 when he allegedly threw a grenade at him during the raid.

The charges call Khadr an "unprivileged belligerent," meaning someone not authorized under international law to fight a war. If convicted he may face execution.

Omar is the son of the late Ahmed Khadr, an Egyptian-born Canadian who was close to Osama bin Laden. Ahmed Khadr died in a shootout with the Pakistani military in 2003.

The military intends to try Khadr in a brand new Guantanamo Bay tribunal room, where he'll be judged by a military commission, not a court.

The decision means that although Khadr is presumed innocent unless proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, he is not entitled to be present at all times during his trial or to know the evidence against him.

Muneer Ahmad, co-counsel for Omar Khadr, says the process is unfair. "We are talking about a sham process, which could result in the death penalty against someone who was 15 at the time of the conduct he is alleged to have committed."

Sunil Ram, a professor at the West Virginia Military University, says he believes the young Khadr is a "terrorist." But, says Ram, Khadr's fate hangs on the personal bias of the officers chosen for the panel. "If they tend to be right-wing and endorse Bush's war on terror, you could end up with a kangaroo court."

Dan McTeague, the parliamentary secretary to the minister of foreign affairs, is rejecting claims that Canada is doing nothing to help Khadr.

McTeague says the government has asked the U.S. for assurance that Khadr won't face the death penalty if he is convicted and that he be allowed access to the lawyer of his choice.

'It's going to be a very long process but, at a minimum, we want to make sure the rule of law is respected," said McTeague.

Nathan Whitling, who is also part of Khadr's legal team, said in Edmonton on Tuesday that there are more questions about this case than answers.

"You know what do we do about the fact that he's been held in these deplorable conditions for three years. And what do we do about the fact that its been in clear violation of international law, and his own human rights."

Whitling says Khadr has been severely mistreated and tortured since his capture and that his Canadian legal team hasn't been allowed to see their client.


Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Rider Pride on November 08, 2005, 23:19:25
"The Americans are gods now," said Maha Elsamnah, Khadr's mother. "They make the law. Nobody can tell them anything."

Elsamnah says Ottawa is doing nothing for her son who is accused of murder, attempted murder and aiding the enemy.

Khadr was the only survivor of a strike on a suspected al-Qaeda compound in Afghanistan three years ago. He is charged with killing U.S. Sgt. Christopher Speer on July 7, 2002 when he allegedly threw a grenade at him during the raid.

Gee, let me see how I feel about this....

1. He fights along side Al Queda and the Taliban regime whom are our "enemy".
2. He killed a medic,
3. Another US Army medic, Khadr was earlier trying to kill as well, saves his life, so he can imprisoned.
4. Now, and again, his family has done nothing but whine that Canada isn't supporting thier efforts to have thier son released, dispite the fact thier family supports our enemy both fiscally and morally.

hmm...

I hope he doesn't bounce too high at the end of his rope. :rage:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Cloud Cover on November 08, 2005, 23:43:00
cbc radio "the current" has been building up to this for the past week or so. I think they [the cbc] will likely take the position that the little baestard was a lawful combatant and his trial and probable execution a violation of international law.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: bobthebui|der on November 08, 2005, 23:45:22
I hope he doesn't bounce too high at the end of his rope. :rage:

Agreed!!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: George Wallace on November 08, 2005, 23:55:34
cbc radio "the current" has been building up to this for the past week or so. I think they [the cbc] will likely take the position that the little baestard was a lawful combatant and his trial and probable execution a violation of international law.

Seems to me that the Death Penalty is still used in both Afghanistan and parts of the US of A.   The 'alleged' crime was committed in Afghanistan against Americans.   He is being tried by an American Judicial System.   'Canada' does not enter into the equation at all (other than his claim to Citizenship.).   He is being treated as any other foreigner would, if committing a crime in the US or in this case against a US citizen.  

There are numerous cases of Canadians on Death Row in the US. for crimes they have committed there.   Why should Canadians plea for this retches case?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Cloud Cover on November 09, 2005, 00:16:14
Well George, the cbc radio "the current" is not particularly open to the truth in the GWOT. They see it as an unwarranted and over zealous racial and religious attack by the US on poor innocent islamic types. blah blah blah you know the story.

The other day they had a part of an interview with the Sampson guy from Saudi and it occurred to me at that time that this was the guy they are going to use for a comparison model. ... "Look at the outrage over what almost happened to the white Christian guy in a foreign jail facing the death penalty... why no such effort for the heroic innocent little Islamic freedom fighter in a US jail. " 



Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: KevinB on November 09, 2005, 01:12:07
We should shoot him for treason -- if he claims Canadian citizenship and opposed the Coalition forces in OEF - he is a traitor plain and simple -- they should also shoot the a$$hat that had the death penalty removed from the QR&O's...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Infanteer on November 09, 2005, 01:18:17
We should make him our next Governor-General....
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: aesop081 on November 09, 2005, 01:21:44
We should make him our next Governor-General....

Please don't give the liberals any ideas .... ::)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on November 09, 2005, 01:33:40
Why should the Cdn tax payer have to cop the bill? As far as I am concerened, the Govt has nothing to do with an individual's terrorist behaviour, and pay for his actions conducting such activities. If he wants assistance, let him or his family pay for it.

He is on his own, and now its time to pay the piper! Let the US make an example of this murdering POS coward!

Too bad he just didn't cop a few ball rds the day he was 'captured', and this all would not be happening.

Truly disgusted (again),

Wes
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on November 09, 2005, 05:49:50
Can you believethis latest statment from the family. I mean I guess you have to ay something...

Quote
Americans act like 'gods'

Nobody can tell them anything,' says mom of Canadian prisoner

The mother of a Toronto teen charged with murder and held at Guantanamo Bay accused Americans of acting like gods yesterday and slammed Ottawa for doing nothing to help her son.

Maha Elsamnah lashed out at both Washington and Ottawa over the detention and treatment of Omar Khadr, 19, who faces the death penalty if convicted by a special U.S. military tribunal.

"The Americans are gods now," Elsamnah said in an interview from her east-end Toronto home.

"The Americans can do anything. They make the law. Nobody can tell them anything. Nobody can disagree with them."

Khadr was just 15 when he allegedly threw a hand grenade that killed an American soldier and wounded another during a shootout with Taliban fighters in Afghanistan in July 2002.
He arrived in Guantanamo Bay as a 16-year-old, the youngest enemy combatant detained there.

"The Canadians have not been trying anything," Elsamnah said. "Ottawa is allied to the Americans, so what do you expect?"

One of Khadr's Canadian lawyers, Dennis Edney, accused the federal government of abandoning the teenager and hiding behind a veil of "silent diplomacy."

The Khadrs, who are Canadian citizens, have had an uneasy relationship with Ottawa since it emerged that the family patriarch, Ahmed Said, was an associate of Osama bin Laden. He was killed in a battle with U.S.-led coalition forces in Pakistan in October 2003.

Another brother, Karim, was paralyzed during the incident in which his father was killed and returned to Canada in April 2004.

The family's oldest brother, Abdullah, is believed to have been detained in Pakistan more than a year ago.
___________________________________________________________________________________

These POS's are an emeny of my country and I personally wish the US would take the lot of them!

Slim
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: RecDiver on November 09, 2005, 09:32:03

Moments like this, I envy the creative and 'freehanded' approaches of certain M/E country formed sometime last century. I am assuming if this family had harmed one of their own they would be have been bagged overnight on to a flight and shipped to A-gan or somewhere. Then they could file all their protest they want from oceans apart.

Where are these creative lawyers when you need them? Why can't they find some long forgotton sliver of a law somewhere in the books to cancel their membership to Canadian Club ?

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Guardian on November 09, 2005, 10:45:20
Traitor.

The guy is no different than those who supported the Nazis.

Let him face the consequences of his actions.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on November 09, 2005, 10:53:44
At least the Americans are putting the b*astard on trial, which is what I had hoped.  These people are disgusting, they were all proud when sonny boy killed the americans, but know want Ottawa to intervine and make sure the kid isn't executed for doing exactly that?  They need to get it through their heads Ottawa and 99% of Canadians do not support them, there cause, or there kid rotting away in gitmo. 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: jmackenzie_15 on November 09, 2005, 11:07:06
At least the Americans are putting the b*astard on trial, which is what I had hoped.   These people are disgusting, they were all proud when sonny boy killed the americans, but know want Ottawa to intervine and make sure the kid isn't executed for doing exactly that?   They need to get it through their heads Ottawa and 99% of Canadians do not support them, there cause, or there kid rotting away in gitmo.  

I  had no idea what was going on with this guy untill I saw the news story on him last night. At first I assumed he was imprisoned just because of his family ties, which obviously would be suspicious... then I wonder what the heck he's doing in afghanistan in the first place...

so it turns out he throws grenades at the americans, kills one and seriously injures another one, his family jumps into pakistan to try and get help for him, it doesnt work out, so then they "whip out and start waving around the canadian passports". Thats just garbage. And the lawyers are actually trying to make a case for this dirtbag? Oh the government wont help you? Poor baby. Maybe you should not attack and kill our allies.

They should take their case back to pakistan because yeah, we sure as hell have no sympathy here.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: redleafjumper on November 09, 2005, 11:50:54
When did the death penalty get removed from QR & O's?  I've been out for a while and I'm not on the distribution list for such things anymore; I'd be most interested in what the amendment is.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: garb811 on November 09, 2005, 12:14:44
The Death Penalty was removed from the NDA in 1998 via 1998 c.35 (Bill C-25) (http://www.canlii.org/ca/as/1998/c35/part8327.html).  Maximum sentance is now imprisonment for life.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on November 09, 2005, 12:31:19
Well, we can't hang the bugger, but hopefully the Americans will
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: NewCenturion on November 09, 2005, 13:53:28
Apparently the Canadian Gov't has assurances from the the US that they won't hang the poor boy if he's found guilty. I think life in Leavenworth as somebody's ***** would be more appropriate for this little darling. :'(
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: KevinB on November 09, 2005, 13:55:53
IIRC they can still shoot him via firing squad...  ;)

May be a neat legal way out - Canada declares victory they wont hang him -- and justice is still served...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Blue Max on November 09, 2005, 14:00:54
Too bad he just didn't cop a few ball rds the day he was 'captured', and this all would not be happening.

Truly disgusted (again),
Wes

Apparently he was badly wounded in that action and would have bled to death on the spot if not for the life saving efforts of the second medic of that US unit (the unit usually only had one medic, except that he was badly wounded in the same action). And for their efforts the Americans are being condemned by the family as torturers. >:D
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: KevinB on November 09, 2005, 14:28:49
Acutally ODA's have two medics, a junior and senior medic on the team.

 He fragged the teams sr medic, and ironically was saved by the junior.  You really gotta respect the US for that, me I would have broke out a dip of chew and offered it around to the rest of the team until sh*tpump bled out.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: acclenticularis on November 09, 2005, 14:46:53
The Khadr family confuses me.  I was led to believe, based on the words spoken by the li'l bugger's mother and sister, that it is their wish that they all die and indeed die for their 'righteous cause'.  Then why do they care if he is strung up?  As long as it was for their cause.  Am I missing something here ... is there not a logic breakdown?  Also, because this family has openly said that they would all like to die for their cause (except one son, of course ... not the li'l bugger, his brother) and to do so would be the greatest honour, what are they doing demanding certain rights from a government that is considered an enemy by the terrorist group to which they are affiliated and sympathetic?  Canadian citizenship is not something that should be flashed when convenient for ones' own gain.  There are rights to being a Canadian, however, there are responsibilities too ... none of which include holding the country as an enemy.  'Oh please, help us we are Canadian citizens, and by the way, I hope to die while murdering as many Canadian infidels as possible, now, where do I go to exert political pressure to get my terrorist son back to Canada to continue the good fight'.  Does this seem as ridiculous to others as it does to me?  I believe in fundamental rights of all, however, there has to be accountability and responsibility for ones' actions.  Anyone that considers my infant son to be an enemy of theirs, is an enemy of mine and anyone who lives in Canada and believes that non-muslims are infidels to be eliminated, is also an enemy of mine.  May the li'l bugger rot in whatever awaits him after his hopefully judicial death.  Religion is a mystery to me, however, for his sake, I hope there is some kind of hell!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on November 09, 2005, 16:02:13
Whats confusing about the Khadrs?  They want all the rights and priveledges of being Canadian citizens while at the same time they bite the hand that feeds them so to speak.  Sure it may not seem locigal to us but then again most of us on this site at some point in time have sworn aligience to Canada, the crown, and the laws that govern us, something these little phucks kinda mumbled during their citizenship oath.  Hang em, gas em, shoot em, poison em, electrocute em, just make sure he is dead (after his day in court first, that whole due process thingy), then mail back the ashes with an included "gift" curtesy of Uncle Sam and the SF unit involved in the firefight (I am sure the ODA's 18C Sgt(s) would be glad to help make this "gift").
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Octavianus on November 09, 2005, 16:38:40
It is truly a shame that liberal democratic societies welcome these people with open arms. In my opinion they show no respect or regard for the traditions and value systems of their new countries. As well as a lack of willingness to learn , appreciate, and adapt to the customs and values of their new land. They believe there is a right to carry on as they did back home. Supposedly they immigrate to a new land of freedom and opportunity because their homeland did not provide this for them. Interestingly, upon arrival they are granted their rights and freedoms ( as well as citizenship soon afterwards) yet have done nothing (aside from paying taxes) to really deserve these privileges. It appears they simply want to turn _______ (insert any liberal democratic society) into their former homeland. It sickens me to witness these people take advantage of our rights and freedoms and apply them for their own selfish ends (which mostly have nothing to do with the majority of Canadians or Canada) The actions of the Khadr family, as well as the deplorable actions taken by the family members of the suspected terrorists in Australia (when they severely beat a reporter who was simply exercising his right of freedom of the press) are extreme examples of this lack of regard for the values of liberal democratic societies across the globe. That beating conjured up images of those mass demonstrations you see on the news in ______(insert any middle eastern country). The soft and welcoming brand of multiculturalism, where everyone belongs, and no one has to adapt, is only helping to ruin Canada and everything she identifies with  and stands for. On a personal note - when my grandparents thankfully chose to come here after WWII they had to adapt to their new land, and they worked their as*es off. They had to learn the language, they adopted the holidays and customs of their new land. Why? Because it made them proud to do anything that would make them more Canadian.  They didn't whine a b*tch about the lack of social services, or not being able to write a drivers licence test in the language of their choice ( I think there are dozens of languages to choose from in Ontario - may be wrong) etc, etc. They wanted my parents (who came here at a very young age) to become real  Canadians, and they have.  Although my brother and I are the only members of my immediate family,(excluding cousins and such)  who were actually born in Canada, we couldn't give two  sh*ts about the our "motherland", and neither do my parents, we are all fiercely proud Canadians. And that's because my parents put that pressure on us to be Canadian - not Italian. The same thing was done to them. And this lack of pressure on new Canadians now a days to conform to the customs, values, and traditions that shaped this great nation (primarily English / French) is a contributing factor in the confusion that surrounds the new Canadian identity no one can really identify.

I just felt like ranting a bit...maybe a little off topic ....I think I'll stop now :cdn:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on November 09, 2005, 20:13:36
Pentagon won't seek execution of Khadr: report

CTV.ca News Staff

A 19-year-old Canadian detained at Guantanamo Bay and facing trial by a U.S. military court for several charges, including murder, will not be executed if he's convicted, according to a report.

The Pentagon will not seek the death penalty against Omar Khadr, the Toronto-born suspect who is facing charges stemming from the death of a U.S. army medic during a 2002 grenade attack in Afghanistan, The Globe and Mail reports.

"The case will not be referred as a capital case," a U.S. Defence Department spokesman said Tuesday.

"They have assured me that the death penalty will not be a consideration in his case."

The announcement was welcomed in Ottawa.

"We have sought these kinds of assurances for some time now from the United States, that they would not seek the death penalty because of Mr. Khadr's age," Dan McTeague, the Canadian parliamentary secretary for Foreign Affairs told the newspaper.

"He was just 15 at the time of the alleged offence. But in addition, Canada opposes the death penalty in all instances as being inconsistent with Canadian values."

McTeague said Ottawa will continue to press the Americans to allow Khadr to have access to Canadian lawyers and to have civilian lawyers representing him when the military tribunal is convened.

Khadr was born in Toronto. His family moved to Peshawar, Pakistan when he was four.

Khadr is charged with hurling a hand grenade that killed an American soldier and wounded three others during a firefight with Taliban fighters in Afghanistan in July 2002, when he was 15.

Khadr arrived in Guantanamo Bay as a 16-year-old, the youngest enemy combatant detained there, and has been held at the base on Cuba amid accusations from supporters that he has been tortured.

Some legal observers have said they believe the Pentagon decided against seeking the death penalty, mainly because of the Supreme Court ruling in March that barred executions of criminals under 18 as cruel and unusual punishment.

In Toronto on Tuesday, Khadr's mother Maha Elsamnah, lashed out at both Washington and Ottawa over the detention and treatment of her son.

"The Americans are gods now. The Americans can do anything. They make the law. Nobody can tell them anything. Nobody can disagree with them."

"The Canadians have not been trying anything," Ms. Elsamnah told The Canadian Press. "Ottawa is allied to the Americans, so what do you expect?"

The Khadrs, all of whom are Canadian citizens, have had an uneasy relationship with Canada since it emerged that Omar's father, Ahmed Sa'id Khadr, was a close associate of Osama bin Laden.

The family patriarch was killed in a gun battle with U.S.-led coalition forces in Pakistan in October 2003. His youngest son Karim, was paralyzed during the same incident.

Karim's mother brought her son back to Canada for treatment in the fall of 2004.

Another son, Abdurahman, is on the outs with his family after admitting to being a mole at Guantanamo Bay.

The family's oldest brother, Abdullah, is believed to have been detained in Pakistan more than a year ago.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051109/khadr_deathpenalty_051109/20051109?hub=Canada

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Slim on November 10, 2005, 02:42:26
Great msg that's being sent out to the world about Canada...

"Come to Canada where you can go to war with us, then live in the country who's soldiers you tried to kill!"
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Octavianus on November 10, 2005, 11:33:10
http://www.torontosun.ca/News/Columnists/Worthington_Peter/2005/11/10/1300192.html

God bless Peter Worthington.

      
He's no soldier - or Canadian

By PETER WORTHINGTON

   
         

There's something weird about murder and attempted murder charges being laid against Omar Khadr, now in his fourth year as a prisoner at Guantanamo Bay.

He was in Afghanistan, which was being invaded, and he was fighting the invaders, who killed everyone but him. Allegations are that he killed a U.S. medical corpsman and wounded another with a grenade. Surely that's "war," not murder?

That said, shed no tears for Omar Khadr -- described in our media as a "Toronto teenager." Although he was born here to a notorious al-Qaida family, Omar is hardly a typical "Canadian."

His loyalty, training and beliefs belong elsewhere. His Egyptian father chose Canada as a base from which to operate. Predictable hearts are now bleeding for this guy, the lone survivor of a raid on an al-Qaida position during the war against the Taliban.

Concerns that Omar, now 19, would face execution if convicted were never realistic. Despite a military tribunal not being a real court, Americans do not sentence 15-year-olds to death who throw grenades in war. Indeed the Pentagon confirmed yesterday that Khadr would not be executed.

Even if they convicted him of murder (a ridiculous charge since he was fighting back), the Americans were unlikely to embarrass the Canadian government, which opposes executions.

Omar's New York lawyer, Muneer Ahmad, calls him a "child" and says the U.S. government "has robbed Omar of his youth."

What rubbish.

Omar's "youth" was robbed by al-Qaida, for whom he fought. It was robbed by his father, who took him and his siblings to al-Qaida terror camps in Afghanistan. His mother, too, has made it clear theirs is an al-Qaida family.

One son, Adurahman, when caught by the Americans, rebelled against his al-Qaida-Taliban indoctrination and is now free in Toronto.

A younger brother was crippled by a bullet -- again, thanks to the fanatic father, Ahmed Said, who died in a gun battle with Pakistani security forces in 2003.

In 1996, then prime minister Jean Chretien persuaded Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf to release Daddy Khadr, who was in prison for the bombing of the Egyptian embassy in Islamabad.

This is not the Walton family. Omar has claimed torture and abuse in Gitmo and gone on hunger strikes. Depending on one's definition of torture, nothing Omar has endured can compare with what his own side inflicted on disbelievers. Rather than torture, Omar and others have endured humiliation and degradation. So what? He still has his fingernails.

Complaints that the 500 confined at Gitmo don't fall under the Geneva Convention are baseless. These guys weren't fighting by civilized rules of war; they honoured no code of behaviour or practice.

Military tribunals are a far cry from regular courts and due process, which takes years in the U.S. The Americans understandably want to avoid such an endless charade. Canada has largely avoided getting involved in Omar's case, or commenting.

Ottawa can't be faulted for this, though Omar's defenders feel Ottawa should be protesting on behalf of a "citizen."

Some citizen! Canada ignored Bill Sampson's torture and death sentence on framed charges in a Saudi prison and ignored Maher Arar in a Syrian prison. So why expect Ottawa to react on Omar's behalf -- other than a chance to snipe at America.

Apart from Adurahman, the Khadr family seems unworthy of Canada. The sympathy Omar deserves is that his own family so poisoned his mind that he may well be unsalvageable.

The best that can be said for him is that he was a fighter for a misguided cause ... and lost.

Let's have no more whining and let him accept his fate like the soldier he thought he was.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: long haired civvy(well, not that long) on November 10, 2005, 17:22:43
I think what we need in Canada is some form of legislation(similiar to the proposed UK anti terror bill) that would  allow authorities to expel(or better yet revoke the citizenship of) naturalized Canadian citizens who support or make statements of support for terrorist organizations. The British bill is aimed squarely at lowlife like the Khadrs, who while enjoying all the advantages of Canadian citizenship, work dilligently abroad spreading the plague of Islamic fundamentalism.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GO!!! on November 10, 2005, 18:18:41
I have an innovative solution.

Ask for Khadrs release from Guantanamo.

Offer the Syrians a "by" for their treatment of Maher Arar, and their guarantee that prisoners are poorly treated.

Then release Khadr - to the Syrians!  >:D  >:D  >:D

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Rider Pride on November 10, 2005, 19:37:57
And to be somewhat equal, an oposing view from the Toronto Star:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_PrintFriendly&c=Article&cid=1131576446129

Editorial: Khadr's terror trial
Nov. 10, 2005. 01:00 AM


The only Canadian terror suspect at Guantanamo Bay has just been charged with murder, attempted murder, conspiracy and aiding the enemy in Afghanistan.

If convicted, Omar Khadr, 19, may face years in prison.

While U.S. military prosecutors have wisely chosen not to press for the death penalty, Prime Minister Paul Martin has yet to see that in writing. Even when he does, Canadians will have reason to worry that Khadr may not receive a fair trial.

"Khadr is a Canadian citizen who is entitled to due process, the right to his choice of American or Canadian counsel, and consular visits," Dan McTeague, parliamentary secretary for foreign affairs, told the Star this week. But winning even those modest concessions from U.S. President George Bush's tribunals is proving to be an uphill struggle.

Martin may be relieved that he won't have to publicly press Bush to spare Khadr's life, but Ottawa must monitor this case closely, and raise a fuss at the United Nations or in Geneva if Khadr receives less than a fair trial by international standards.

A Canadian citizen, Khadr is the son of Ahmed Khadr, allegedly a former "close associate" of Osama bin Laden. The Khadrs cheered the 9/11 attacks.

U.S. prosecutors contend Omar received Al Qaeda training in Afghanistan in 2002, spied on U.S. troops, planted mines and killed U.S. Army Sgt. Christopher Speer with a grenade during a firefight in which Khadr was shot. All this makes him sound like a seasoned terrorist.

In fact, Khadr was 15 at the time, a classic "child soldier." He was subject to his late father's indoctrination and authority. He says he was "dropped off" at the Al Qaeda camp shortly before U.S. troops surrounded it and the firefight began.

Few Canadians have much time for the Khadr clan. Not when our troops are in Afghanistan, battling terror and delivering aid. But Canadians do care about justice. And what Khadr is likely to get may fall short.

Khadr will not face his accusers in a credible court of law. The controversial U.S. military commissions at Guantanamo are anything but impartial.

Military officers function as judges and jurors. Evidence can be withheld from the accused. Information from unlawful coercion is admissible. There is no right of appeal or independent judicial review.

Indeed these military courts have sparked such controversy that the U.S. Supreme Court has just agreed to hear a challenge to their constitutionality.

The Supreme Court already has shot down the administration's claim that Guantanamo is beyond the reach of U.S. law.

Khadr should have been brought before a competent court in Afghanistan, where his alleged crimes were committed. Or before a U.S. criminal court, or an international tribunal. He could even have been tried here.

He could also have been set free, on humanitarian grounds. He has already spent years in detention.

Instead, Washington has chosen to put a child combatant before a partisan military tribunal to face years in prison for acts committed on his father's orders, and under fire.

It is not the way Canadians do justice. There are better ways to serve freedom, and thwart terror.

 :skull:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: 3rd Horseman on November 10, 2005, 23:56:51
When will someone in Ottawa start stripping passports?

  It reminds me of that US citizen they caught at the first suurender in Afganistan of the TB. Forget his name but he was brought back to the US and tried and put in jail. Why not just strip him of his passport when he was in that **** hole jail in Afganistan and set him adrift countryless and in the hands of theb northern alliance who probably would have carved him a new as*hole.

Kahdrs along with countless others on our country that dont play our game need to have the old passport and citizinship yanked and they need to be set adrift as world refugees.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on November 11, 2005, 11:10:19

It is not the way Canadians do justice. There are better ways to serve freedom, and thwart terror.


It may not be the way Canadians do justice up here in Canada (The most morally superior high forehead nation in the world), but that is a good thing, considering the way we molly-coddle criminals in our "legal system" (We do not have "justice" system, despite what the bleeding hearts say).  Except maybe for this star reporter, the scumbags family and the usual left-wing suspects, Canadians as a whole are not going to cry in there beer/timmies over this waste of life.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Acorn on November 13, 2005, 04:39:58
There is currently nothing in Canadian law that allows for the stripping of citizenship. Passports can, and have, be denied.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: armyintheafterlife on November 16, 2005, 23:40:29
It is truly a shame that liberal democratic societies welcome these people with open arms. In my opinion they show no respect or regard for the traditions and value systems of their new countries. As well as a lack of willingness to learn , appreciate, and adapt to the customs and values of their new land. They believe there is a right to carry on as they did back home. Supposedly they immigrate to a new land of freedom and opportunity because their homeland did not provide this for them. Interestingly, upon arrival they are granted their rights and freedoms ( as well as citizenship soon afterwards) yet have done nothing (aside from paying taxes) to really deserve these privileges. It appears they simply want to turn _______ (insert any liberal democratic society) into their former homeland. It sickens me to witness these people take advantage of our rights and freedoms and apply them for their own selfish ends (which mostly have nothing to do with the majority of Canadians or Canada) The actions of the Khadr family, as well as the deplorable actions taken by the family members of the suspected terrorists in Australia (when they severely beat a reporter who was simply exercising his right of freedom of the press) are extreme examples of this lack of regard for the values of liberal democratic societies across the globe. That beating conjured up images of those mass demonstrations you see on the news in ______(insert any middle eastern country). The soft and welcoming brand of multiculturalism, where everyone belongs, and no one has to adapt, is only helping to ruin Canada and everything she identifies with   and stands for. On a personal note - when my grandparents thankfully chose to come here after WWII they had to adapt to their new land, and they worked their as*es off. They had to learn the language, they adopted the holidays and customs of their new land. Why? Because it made them proud to do anything that would make them more Canadian.   They didn't whine a b*tch about the lack of social services, or not being able to write a drivers licence test in the language of their choice ( I think there are dozens of languages to choose from in Ontario - may be wrong) etc, etc. They wanted my parents (who came here at a very young age) to become real   Canadians, and they have.   Although my brother and I are the only members of my immediate family,(excluding cousins and such)   who were actually born in Canada, we couldn't give two   sh*ts about the our "motherland", and neither do my parents, we are all fiercely proud Canadians. And that's because my parents put that pressure on us to be Canadian - not Italian. The same thing was done to them. And this lack of pressure on new Canadians now a days to conform to the customs, values, and traditions that shaped this great nation (primarily English / French) is a contributing factor in the confusion that surrounds the new Canadian identity no one can really identify.

I just felt like ranting a bit...maybe a little off topic ....I think I'll stop now :cdn:



You know, this story isn't about immigrants, as much as the Canadian media keeps trolling, its about a young man getting all cranked up and set on hopeless journey by the morons that were supposed to be guiding him to maturity.  Instead of 'go read your math book' it was let's all go have a jehad.  Now these same folks want Canadians to feel sorry for their deviant son and will manipulate the media any way they can to get at the politicians, who will react consistent with how many votes they think they may lose or get.  Doesn't matter where he launched from, point is, his critical error was shooting at American soldiers.  For that he was kept locked up, likely questioned and will now be tried and punished for his crimes.  The rules for this sort of thing worldwide are simple: when you're in a country other than your own you are subject to the rules of that country and by extension, when you're in a country at war with America (or Canada for that matter) and you shoot at American troops, expect them to return effective fire.  If they get hold of you, expect to be treated like the POW you are.  Canada has no right or obligation to protect this person from the death penalty.  Last time I checked we were militarily allied with the U.S. and ought to hold up our end of that log.  If this isn't the case then we ought to stop signing international agreements that say we are.  End of story.     
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: FormerHorseGuard on November 17, 2005, 00:35:56
I read somewhere that Canada has a law on the books that  makes it illegal to fight in a war that you are fighting againist Canadians or allies. I do not fully understand it. Read about in the Ottawa Sun in a story  about a Canadian that went to Nam, as part of the USMC . it was illegal for Canadians to go as it was not a declared war by Canada, and fighting for US was not legal either but the Canadian Government looked the other way  as they  did they  took in non Canadians during WW 2 when they wanted to join up north.

But if there is such a law on the books after they are done with the POS in the States, they need to send him home to face Canadian Law and see what  happens.

My personally feelings on this matter are very  uncaring

1) they fought in an declared war, did not wear a uniform, did not belong to a legal army, killed women and children and other innocents, fired upon Medics.

2) They oppressed their own people for sake of power

3) some of them are involved in the drug trade

4) He personally  insulted his country and his family expects Canada to bail him out of Cuba ( give me a break )

5) he wants to protest his lack of freedom and lack of rights.

where is the freedom for the medic he shot
where is the conventions of war for the people he killed, or tried to kiil or helped to capture.
where was he when his country  needed him to help defend it and support it
He did the crime let him do the time.

If he thinks he needs to be saved and given back his freedom, send him back to where he was captured and let the Afgan people decide what  sort of punishment he deserves. Let him rot in one of the fine 5 star jails they have over there. I am sure they  will give him a shower , 3 meals a day, time to pray, recreational area, and free medical care as needed.

if i had my way  i would drop the POS into the Ottawa River and see if he can walk on water with blocks of concrete around his neck. drown the ******* and forget about him, he does not deserve the help of Canada, and does not require court hearing, he was there armed, shooting at US forces. let him rot and die. I am sick of the people coming to Canada and brining the crap over here with them and then taking Canadian money , sending it back home to support terror, sort illegal businesses. then they want Canada to bail them out, screw them and the camel they  rode in on.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Britney Spears on November 17, 2005, 00:42:17
A slight nitpick: The Taliban, being fanatical Muslims, adhered very strictly to the Koranic prohibition on the use of mind altering substances, that is, alchohol and any form of narcotic. The opium trade was essentially stamped out in Taliban controlled areas. The principle areas of opium cultivation were those controlled by the Northern Alliance, for whom it was essentially the only form of financing they had access to, prior to 9/11.

So, no, he probably wasn't involved in the drug trade.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hollywog on November 17, 2005, 16:31:08
Seems to me that the Death Penalty is still used in both Afghanistan and parts of the US of A.   The 'alleged' crime was committed in Afghanistan against Americans.   He is being tried by an American Judicial System.   'Canada' does not enter into the equation at all (other than his claim to Citizenship.).   He is being treated as any other foreigner would, if committing a crime in the US or in this case against a US citizen.  

There are numerous cases of Canadians on Death Row in the US. for crimes they have committed there.   Why should Canadians plea for this retches case?

Didn't Chretien do that when one of the Khadirs was held by Pakistan?


Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: George Wallace on November 17, 2005, 16:39:58
Didn't Chretien do that when one of the Khadirs was held by Pakistan?
Yes.   And what thanks did he give?   He went back and was killed in a Firefight with the Pakistani Army.  Hope I got that right?  That family has had such a convoluted History in the Region, it is hard to keep track.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Xfire on November 17, 2005, 16:42:30
maybe he should read up on his Charter of rights and freedoms..they dont apply when you do something bad outside of Canada
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: silentbutdeadly on November 17, 2005, 20:59:00
So i guess when the americans hang this Killer, the family , living here in Canada, will blame us for his murder. Funny isn't it! :threat:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: ArmyVern on November 17, 2005, 21:37:43
So i guess when the americans hang this Killer, the family , living here in Canada, will blame us for his murder. Funny isn't it! :threat:

Well they already announced that they would not seek the death penalty. Too bad....perhaps I can start a lobby group entitled "let Vern have him for 10 minutes!!" Actually, give me 15 so that I can make sure it really hurts!!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Infanteer on December 03, 2005, 17:07:10
In an attempt to learn more about the Khadr family, I watched this frontline episode focusing on the "blacksheep" of the family, Abduraman.  It was well worth watching (as with other Frontline episodes)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/khadr/view/

Osama bin Laden is a volleyball fan - I wonder if he gets many games in at his cave?  The Khadr women sure seem like a bunch of unrepentent bags; my opinion on them still stands.

Interesting to see that Bosnia is recognized as a major pipeline for Al-Qaeda activity - it certainly shores up some of my observations from being there.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: 3rd Horseman on December 08, 2005, 10:17:46
Bosnia had a very big Muji element in theatre during the war, they as I see now years later were AlQuida. They were brutal fighters and stayed close to the secretive Black Swan units who were well supplied by the CIA and Saudis. During early 95 the BIH government wanted to get them under control and was having problems with them and there hidden agenda in the new BiH government post war 95. During the mid summer 95 the BiH made an attempt to oust them from Bosnia sensing the war was ending soon. They requested the UN assist them, that didnt go very far.lp of the UN. They would have no part of it other than negotiations to ask them to leave. It fell upon the special assets in theatre to get ride of them and this activity was very productive. By the end of the fall most Mujis were gone, maybe now they have gotten a better toe hold. I can only imagine what effect all the money funneled into new mosques and madras's would have on that poor state as they rebuild there country after the war.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Scotty on December 18, 2005, 02:53:44
Abdullah Khadr arrested; faces extradition

CTV.ca News Staff

The eldest son of the notorious Khadr family has been arrested in Toronto.

Members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) took Abdullah Khadr, 23, into custody at approximately 7 p.m. Saturday. He was brought to Toronto's Metro West Detention facility.

His mother was also taken into custody after she became upset at the arrest. However, she isn't facing any charges.

"The RCMP was simply acting on the basis of a provisional warrant issued by the Department of Justice," spokesperson Cpl. Michele Paradis told CTV.ca.

A provisional warrant is issued based on accusations from another government. In Khadr's case, those accusations come from the U.S. government.

The RCMP declined to provide details of the arrest, except to say that it happened at a Toronto residence.

"I can't get into specifics," Paradis said. "We'd never give out that information."

According to a Saturday globeandmail.com report, Khadr faces extradition to the United States for allegedly planning to kill U.S. soldiers abroad.

The website of The Globe and Mail quoted Khadr's lawyer, Dennis Edney.

"The cops said they were acting on a provisional warrant from the United States," Edney said. "I can't say he sounded worried. I think he is in a state of shock."

Khadr returned to Canada from Pakistan in early December. He had been held, and he claims interrogated, in a Pakistani prison for 14 months.

When Abdullah returned to Canada, he denied having any ties to the al Qaeda Islamist terror organization. However, Khadr also said he feared the possibility that the United States would continue to seek custody of him.

According to Edney, the U.S. wants to charge Khadr with "possession and use of a destructive device in furtherance of a crime of violence that is conspiracy to murder a U.S. national outside of the U.S."

The Khadr family

Khadr is the eldest son of Ahmed Said Khadr. The Egyptian-born Canadian was killed during a gun battle with Pakistani forces in 2003. He was accused of being a fundraiser for al Qaeda.

Each of the four Khadr siblings have separately been jailed and accused of having links to international terrorism.

Abdul Khadr, 15, lives in Scarborough after being paralyzed in the gun battle with Pakistani security forces that left his father dead.

Omar Khadr, 19, is being held in the American detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. He has been charged with murder for the death of a U.S. medic in Afghanistan during a 2002 gun battle.

Abdurahman Khadr, 22, was captured in Afghanistan by the Northern Alliance and says he briefly worked for the CIA as an informant in Guantanamo Bay. He returned to Canada in December 2003 and is currently fighting a court case with the government to obtain a passport.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051217/abdullah_khadr_051217/20051217?hub=TopStories
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: career_radio-checker on December 18, 2005, 04:36:47
1 down 2 to go... or is it 3 ???   I can't believe they let them back in to the country after what the mother and daughter said on the CBC. And then to get off the plane in Canada and say "I have no ties to Al-Quaida" grrrrrrrrrr :evil:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on December 18, 2005, 18:42:58
Well it turns out some members of the board were right, we allowed them to return so we (law enforcement and Intelligence communities) could keep a better eye on them.  I hope who ever authorized the warrant doesn't get any flack, and that they get a promotion or someting.  AS for the rest of the family,  they (LE) better scoop them up right quick, before they disappear, before the US and Canadian Governments get a chance to disappear them.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jarnhamar on December 18, 2005, 19:42:31
Quote
The eldest son of the notorious Khadr family has been arrested in Toronto.

I can't believe that!  Someone from the Khadr family?

What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? 

 I'm going to start a fund for this poor poor soul of this misunderstood family.  Anyone interested in donating money PM me.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Rider Pride on December 19, 2005, 10:13:13
speaking of money, where does this "poor immigrant"(my words) family get the money to travel back and forth overseas?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Shadowhawk on December 19, 2005, 12:45:34
The Canadian Taxpayers. :threat:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on December 19, 2005, 23:26:18
speaking of money, where does this "poor immigrant"(my words) family get the money to travel back and forth overseas?


Well they live in area of Scarborough that has a very high Muslim population (Midland Ave and Eglinton Ave E. area), and my best guess woud be that they get a large amount of money from other local muslims who may sympathize with them and/or thier cause.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jarnhamar on December 20, 2005, 15:43:28
Anyone think this Khadr fellow should marry Karla Homolka?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on December 20, 2005, 17:59:47
Anyone think this Khadr fellow should marry Karla Homolka?

Umm why?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: 48Highlander on December 20, 2005, 18:50:21
Screw that, I think he should marry Lorena Bobbit...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Sheep Dog AT on February 20, 2006, 01:35:32
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/02/19/khard-utah060219.html
U.S. judge finds Khadr estate liable for attack
Last Updated Sun, 19 Feb 2006 13:47:12 EST
CBC News
A U.S. court has made a huge judgment against the estate of Ahmed Khadr, the patriarch of a Canadian family connected to al-Qaeda.


INDEPTH: Khadr: al-Qaeda Family

Khadr is believed to be dead, killed in a 2003 fight with Pakistani soldiers on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border.

Omar Khadr, one son of Ahmed, was involved in a fight in 2002 in Afghanistan that killed one U.S. soldier and wounded another.

The wounded soldier, Sgt. Layne Morris, and the widow of medic Christopher Speer, sued Ahmed under the U.S. Patriot Act. They said the father encouraged his sons, including the underage Omar, to kill Americans.

The judge hearing the case said it may be the first of its kind because it makes attackers liable for their actions, even outside the U.S.

He awarded $102.6 million US to Morris and Speer's widow on Friday in an uncontested case, although it's not clear how or even if they can collect any part of the money.

It is believed the U.S. and Canadian governments have seized Ahmed Khadr's assets.

The U.S. has accused at least two of Khadr's sons of attacks or planning attacks on American solders.

Omar, 15 at the time of the battle and now 19, is being tried in Guantanamo Bay. He was captured in the attack that wounded Morris and killed Speer. His next court appearance is set for March 27.


FROM JAN. 13, 2006: Khadr likely to get new legal team

His brother, Abdullah, spent a year in a Pakistani jail before being released in 2005. He came to Toronto. The U.S. government is trying to extradite him.


FROM FEB. 15, 2006: U.S. requests Khadr extradition

U.S. officials allege he bought weapons for militants and accuse him of plotting to kill American soldiers.


Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: RN PRN on March 16, 2006, 13:51:40
Here is the latest and greatest on this saga;

Could it be that we are actualy going to send him south? I hope so.

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060316/abdullah_khadr_court_060316

Abdullah Khadr to face extradition hearing
CTV.ca News Staff

Canadian Abdullah Khadr will face an extradition hearing that could force him to return to the U.S. to face terrorism charges.

A ruling today in Ontario's Superior Court gave the U.S. leave to seek extradition.

The process is set to start on March 30, when prosecutors meet to discuss a date for the extradition hearing.

Khadr, 24, has been in jail since December, when he was arrested on a U.S. warrant.

In February, the U.S. formally requested extradition of Khadr, who was indicted in Boston on charges he supplied al Qaeda with weapons and plotted to kill American soldiers in Afghanistan.

The indictment said Khadr bought the weapons at the request of his father, Egyptian-born Canadian Ahmed Said Khadr, an accused al Qaeda financier killed by Pakistani forces in 2003.

Khadr admits attending an al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan when he was 13, but denies being a terrorist.

Each of the five Khadr siblings, all of whom are Canadian citizens, has at one time or another been separately accused or investigated for alleged links to terrorism.

Omar Khadr, 19, is the only Canadian held at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp. He has been there since he was 16.

He is charged with aiding al Qaeda and murdering a U.S. medic in Afghanistan in July 2002.

He faces a special military tribunal system for alleged terrorists that has been widely attacked as unfair.

The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, an international human rights group, has taken up his case with the aim of getting his military trial suspended.

With files from The Canadian Press

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on March 23, 2006, 07:14:32
Stop, please your breakin' my heart..... :rofl:   

Terror suspect Khadr at 'urgent risk'
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2006/03/22/1500550-cp.html
By BETH GORHAM
 
WASHINGTON (CP) - An international human rights watchdog is demanding that U.S. officials intervene to protect Canadian teenager Omar Khadr from torture at Guantanamo Bay.

The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, affiliated with the Organization of American States, said Wednesday that Khadr faces an "urgent risk of irreparable harm."
The commission's finding, after a one-day hearing last week, said American authorities must ensure Khadr, 19, isn't subjected to abuse, prolonged isolation or interrogation tactics that fail to comply with international standards of humane treatment.

The group demanded an impartial investigation into Khadr's torture allegations and prosecution of anyone found guilty. Officials must also ensure that no statements obtained through cruel or degrading treatment be accepted in legal proceedings against the teen, the commission said.
The watchdog gave the U.S. government 15 days to respond to its requests. So far, officials have refused to comply with five other urgent directives related to Guantanamo issued by the commission since March 2002.

U.S. officials have always denied detainees are tortured. Yet a Pentagon spokesman said Wednesday the department is considering whether to issue new instructions to military commissions that specifically prohibit evidence extracted by those means.
"This has been one area where there has been some concern raised and so the department is taking a look at it and may issue a special instruction on it," said Bryan Whitman.

Sheku Sheikholeslami, part of an American University legal clinic that made the case to protect Khadr, said supporters are pleased with the commission's findings.
"It sends a very important message that the conditions of his detention will irreparably harm Omar," she said.
"This should be a wakeup call for the U.S. and especially for Canada," which has not taken a position on global calls to close Guantanamo.

Khadr is charged with murdering a U.S. army medic in Afghanistan in 2002 when he was 15 years old and faces a second military tribunal hearing next month at the U.S. naval base in southeastern Cuba.
Sheikholeslami argued at a closed-door March 13 hearing that Khadr's trial should be suspended. But the commission wants a full briefing on the tribunal process before ruling.
The U.S. Supreme Court is hearing arguments this month on whether the system for so-called enemy combatants captured in the war on terrorism is constitutional since they've been denied the right to challenge their detention.

Khadr's lawyers told the OAS commission that U.S. authorities aren't following global standards for juvenile justice, saying his trial sets a dangerous precedent as the first for war crimes allegedly committed by a juvenile.
The teen, they said, has been threatened with rape, placed in a room with barking dogs while wearing a plastic bag over his head and forced to sit while shackled in stress positions for extended periods.

U.S. government lawyers argued the commission has no jurisdiction over Guantanamo.
They also failed to provide any specifics about Khadr's case, citing privacy concerns, the commission said.
Only 10 of some 500 Guantanamo prisoners, including Khadr, have actually been charged and have made appearances at tribunals.

The Khadr family has provoked intense debate in Canada. Each of the five Khadr siblings, all of whom are Canadian citizens, has at one time or another been separately accused or investigated for alleged links to terrorism.

 
 
 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: sober_ruski on March 28, 2006, 22:46:15
Quote
Khadr faces an "urgent risk of irreparable harm."

The USMC medic faced urgent risk of irreparable harm. Those 2 pakistany soldiers faced urgent risk of irreparable harm. 3000 odd people in the planes, WTC, and pentagon faced urgent risk of irreparable harm.
A pillow with a .22 would be the only irreparable harm this piece of fecal matter has to face.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Danjanou on March 29, 2006, 15:04:15
Well they live in area of Scarborough that has a very high Muslim population (Midland Ave and Eglinton Ave E. area), and my best guess woud be that they get a large amount of money from other local muslims who may sympathize with them and/or thier cause.

And I would bet you guess wrong skippy.  8)

Shadowhawk is right these lovely people get the money to travel back and forth to the homeland for "visits" from the Canadian Taxpayer usually in misappropriated welfare payments and other aspects of the social safety net (GST rebates, NCBS etc) that they despise. Of course any attempt to point out this serious violation of Canadian Law (Section 380(1) of the Criminal Code of Canada, Section 19 of The Family Benefits Act, Section 79 of the Ontario Works Act, Section 59 of the Ontario Disabilities Support Program Act) would brand the person or persons who did so as inhumane, politically incorrect and perhaps racist, and maybe in violation of the Khadrs rights as enshrined in the Charter. ::)

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Octavianus on March 29, 2006, 15:26:35
I always thought that human rights did not apply to animals? ;D Where do many of these groups receive their funding anyways?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hatchet Man on March 29, 2006, 17:34:46
Quote from: Hatchet Man
Well they live in area of Scarborough that has a very high Muslim population (Midland Ave and Eglinton Ave E. area), and my best guess woud be that they get a large amount of money from other local muslims who may sympathize with them and/or thier cause.

And I would bet you guess wrong skippy.  8)

Shadowhawk is right these lovely people get the money to travel back and forth to the homeland for "visits" from the Canadian Taxpayer usually in misappropriated welfare payments and other aspects of the social safety net (GST rebates, NCBS etc) that they despise. Of course any attempt to point out this serious violation of Canadian Law (Section 380(1) of the Criminal Code of Canada, Section 19 of The Family Benefits Act, Section 79 of the Ontario Works Act, Section 59 of the Ontario Disabilities Support Program Act) would brand the person or persons who did so as inhumane, politically incorrect and perhaps racist, and maybe in violation of the Khadrs rights as enshrined in the Charter. ::)


I wasn't saying they don't screw over taxpayers and abuse the system, but lets not fool ourselves into believing that they are not receiving funds from the local muslim community (at least the ones who support Al-Queada-Taliban and/or think this family is some how being persecuted).  The tamil tigers have been soliciting/harrassing members of that particular community(Which is mainly centred in Scarborough) for funds, for years.  Considering how closed and tight knit both groups are (tamils, muslims within Scarborough/Toronto), it is highly that this kind of activity is going on right now  in the local muslim community.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Octavianus on June 09, 2006, 14:58:39
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&pubid=968163964505&cid=1149850847392&col=968705899037&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News


Court backs Khadr's right to passport
Jun. 9, 2006. 01:13 PM
CANADIAN PRESS

The Federal Court says Ottawa can’t deny the son of an Egyptian-born terrorist a Canadian passport because of national security concerns.

The court has ruled that the federal government was wrong to deny Abdurahman Khadr’s application two years ago.

That’s because new anti-terror provisions didn’t legally exist when the self-proclaimed black sheep of the family made his application in 2004.

Lawyers argued the case in December.

Khadr returned to Canada two years after being arrested as a presumed member of Al Qaeda in November 2001.

He was later transferred to Guantanamo Bay and deported to Afghanistan.

His brothers Abdullah and Omar have been charged with terrorist activities.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Cdn Blackshirt on June 09, 2006, 15:03:33
I think we should give them all passports, invite them to vacation anywhere they like, then under the 2004 rule changes revoke those passports.

In short, "Get lost.  Don't let the door hit you in the ***!"


Matthew.   >:(
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: 17thRecceSgt on June 09, 2006, 19:01:47
I just came across this gem...

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/06/09/khadr.html

The federal government will review its options now that the Federal Court has ruled that the son of a suspected Egyptian extremist has the right to a Canadian passport.

The Conservatives don't want a passport issued to Abdurahman Khadr, despite the ruling, a government spokesman said Friday.

Stephen Harper's government wants to review the decision, said Jason Kenney, the parliamentary secretary to the prime minister.

The Tories support the previous Liberal government's decision to deny Khadr a passport, Kenney said.

The court ruled Friday that Ottawa can't refuse Khadr's application based on national security concerns.

New anti-terrorism provisions didn't legally exist when Khadr made his application in 2004.

Khadr returned to Canada two years after being arrested as a presumed member of al-Qaeda in November 2001.

He was later transferred to Guantanamo Bay and deported to Afghanistan, but later freed after agreeing to co-operate with U.S. authorities and returned to Canada.

In January 2005, Bill Graham, the foreign affairs minister, used his "royal prerogative" to keep former Guantanamo Bay detainee Abdurahman Khadr from leaving the country.

The minister used the rare power of intervention to deny Khadr a passport.

Al-Qaeda family

In an interview with CBC Television, Khadr described how his father fought alongside Osama bin Laden in the Afghan war against the Soviets in the 1980s.

However, the 23-year-old Abdurahman Khadr has said he does not share his father's sympathies.

Khadr appealed the decision to deny him a passport. At the time, his lawyer, Clayton Ruby, called the federal action a fundamental breach of his rights under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

National security is not currently a specified reason for refusing to issue a passport.

The custom of royal or Crown prerogative is invoked mostly in ceremonial affairs, such as when the Governor General uses it to dissolve Parliament at the request of the prime minister.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Thucydides on June 10, 2006, 01:31:20
And I would bet you guess wrong skippy.  8)

Shadowhawk is right these lovely people get the money to travel back and forth to the homeland for "visits" from the Canadian Taxpayer usually in misappropriated welfare payments and other aspects of the social safety net (GST rebates, NCBS etc) that they despise. Of course any attempt to point out this serious violation of Canadian Law (Section 380(1) of the Criminal Code of Canada, Section 19 of The Family Benefits Act, Section 79 of the Ontario Works Act, Section 59 of the Ontario Disabilities Support Program Act) would brand the person or persons who did so as inhumane, politically incorrect and perhaps racist, and maybe in violation of the Khadrs rights as enshrined in the Charter. ::)

I remember there was a similar case where Mohamed Farah Adid (of Blackhawk Down fame) supposedly had some of his family in Canada, on welfare allegedly involved in a similar welfare scam. My search stringology is weak tonight, I can't seem to find details.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: WR on June 10, 2006, 03:10:20
One of his wives and their kids were living in the London, Ont area....not sure what happened to them....probably still on welfare. ::)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Danjanou on June 10, 2006, 14:10:18
Another wife, and kid or kiddies was in Rexdale (NW Toronto) which has a fairly large Somali community and on assistance too, can't recall if she/they were scamming though.

On the other hand didn't one of his sons join the USMC and serve honourably.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on June 11, 2006, 06:53:24
ya, if I remember right, some Somalies were using multiple identities and sending all the cash back to Shyteland.

Now thats what I call taking advantage of Canada and Canadians at large! Its quite disgusting, isn't it!

As for Adid's family, I think adventually they did leave (if I remember correctly, but I might be wrong), but knowing the federal government, they probably begged them to return.

Cold beers,

Wes
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Danjanou on June 11, 2006, 10:55:04
Not just Somalis Wes. We busted a bunch of Tamil refugees being extorted by the Tigers to file false second refugee claims then collect welfare under these names and hand the cheques over. Can’t really blame them, they were the ones being extorted by the same scum that they came to Canada to get away from.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on June 11, 2006, 17:05:29
Not just Somalis Wes. We busted a bunch of Tamil refugees being extorted by the Tigers to file false second refugee claims then collect welfare under these names and hand the cheques over. Can’t really blame them, they were the ones being extorted by the same scum that they came to Canada to get away from.

Its a pretty sad state of affairs when you accept people because of their situation in their own country and they do this for their apprecation.

Cheeers,

Wes
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Octavianus on June 13, 2006, 11:03:39
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1150149010011&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

Khadrs show up for suspects
Jun. 13, 2006. 06:59 AM
MICHELLE SHEPHARD AND HAROLD LEVY
STAFF REPORTERS

The alleged members of a Toronto-based terrorist group are receiving support from other Canadians who say their names have been smeared by terrorism allegations, including members of the Khadr family and the uncle of a detained Syrian.

Sitting in the front row at a court appearance for the accused yesterday was 17-year-old Karim Khadr, who was paralyzed when he was shot during a 2003 battle with Pakistani forces that killed his father, reputed Al Qaeda financier Ahmed Said Khadr.

Also watching was Khadr's mother, Maha Elsamnah, who has been living in Toronto since she returned from Pakistan with Karim two years ago. The Khadr family knows at least one of the suspects, Fahim Ahmad, who is accused of being one of the alleged leaders of what police call a homegrown terrorism cell plotting to attack southern Ontario targets.

The 12 adults and five youths under the age of 18 were arrested June 2 in raids across the city.

Lawyers for the men complained yesterday that the accused were enduring "cruel and unusual punishment" while detained. The allegations came as Justice of the Peace Keith Currie imposed a blanket publication ban on the legal proceedings.

No Khadr family members have been convicted of terrorism offences but two are now in custody: Abdullah, 25, in Toronto, fighting deportation to the U.S., where he has been indicted on terrorism charges, and 19-year-old Omar, who is Canada's only detainee in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Omar Khadr is being held on murder and attempted murder charges stemming from a 2002 battle in Afghanistan in which a U.S. soldier was killed.

A few rows back in the packed courtroom sat Ahmed Shehab, who had his Toronto photocopy shop raided by the RCMP a week after the 9/11 attacks, and his nephew Nabil Al Marabh, detained on terrorism allegations in the U.S.

The terrorism accusations against Al Marabh were later dropped, and he was deported on an immigration violation to Syria, where his uncle says he's now detained.

Shehab said yesterday he recognized some of the accused, but came to court to show his support and send the message that the suspects are innocent until the court rules.

The 17 accused were brought before the justice of the peace yesterday to set dates for their upcoming bail hearings. The five youths, who cannot be identified due to Canadian laws protecting suspects under 18, appeared first, shackled and handcuffed together.

The accused adults were brought into the court in groups of three and four. Some, like 21-year-old Asad Ansari, kept their heads bowed and looked only at the floor.

Others such as Ahmad looked constantly over their shoulders, smiling at friends and family members who filled one side of the courtroom.

A majority of defence lawyers opposed the ban, arguing the case had already been tried in public and their clients wanted the government to have to defend its claims in open court.

Lawyer David Kolinsky, who represents Zakaria Amara, another alleged leader of the group and the 21-year-old who sources say will be accused of allegedly arranging the purchase of ammonium nitrate to manufacture a bomb, told reporters outside the courthouse that a guard attacked his client at the maximum security facility in Milton, where he is being held.

"(He) was pinned down on the ground. He had the guard's finger drilled into his cheek and the guard also flicked him quite hard in the eye," Kolinsky said.

When claims of mistreatment and threats by guards at Maplehurst Detention Centre were discussed in court, accused Yasin Abdi Mohamed raised his handcuffed arms in the air and shouted "torture."

Mohamed and 22-year-old Ali Dirie pleaded guilty last October to weapons offences after their rented car was pulled over two months earlier at Fort Erie's Peace Bridge and they were found smuggling weapons and ammunition into Canada from the U.S. They had been serving two-year sentences in Kingston but are now charged with allegedly acquiring those weapons for terrorist activities.

Other lawyers yesterday complained of the conditions their clients are facing in segregation, including claims that the lights in their cells are left on 24 hours a day, they're forced to keep their eyes on the floor and are being woken up every 30 minutes.

Lawyers said that amounted to "cruel and unusual punishment," and breached their clients' Charter rights.

Lawyer Rocco Galati, who represents 21-year-old Ahmad Mustafa Ghany, added that when suspects are escorted "they must walk at a 90-degree angle with their legs upright and their torso across at a 90-degree angle with handcuffs stretched out."

"And they are being escorted by three armed tactical members of the security forces," he said.

Galati also accused the authorities of unfairly leaking selected information to the media "to ensure the denial of a fair bail hearing and the denial of a fair trial."

"After (the Crown has) had 10 days with the media, feeding the media whatever they want to feed the media, denying us disclosure of any evidence and doing what they need to do to conduct the trial in this parking lot of the courthouse, they now have the audacity to request a blanket publication ban of all proceedings," Galati told reporters outside of court.



Quote
The alleged members of a Toronto-based terrorist group are receiving support from other Canadians who say their names have been smeared by terrorism allegations, including members of the Khadr family and the uncle of a detained Syrian.

You mean "other Canadians who are terrorists too!"


Quote
When claims of mistreatment and threats by guards at Maplehurst Detention Centre were discussed in court, accused Yasin Abdi Mohamed raised his handcuffed arms in the air and shouted "torture."

 :rofl:        ya....laughing this hard is torture...I can't stop....too funny



They all know how to play the PR game so well....must be a chapter on it in the Al -qaeda training manual.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Sheep Dog AT on June 13, 2006, 12:20:40
Isn't that like the leader of the Hell's Angels sitting on a trial for one of his Leiutenants (sp).
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on June 29, 2006, 10:09:53
Hateful chatter behind the veil  
Key suspects' wives held radical views, Web postings reveal
OMAR EL AKKAD AND GREG MCARTHUR
POSTED AT 3:34 AM EDT ON 29/06/06
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060629.wxblog29/BNStory/National/?cid=al_gam_nletter_newsUp (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060629.wxblog29/BNStory/National/?cid=al_gam_nletter_newsUp)

Wives of four of the central figures arrested last month were among the most active on the website, sharing, among other things, their passion for holy war, disgust at virtually every aspect of non-Muslim society and a hatred of Canada.

Personally, I think we should help these people realize their objectives....bye bye !!!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Shadowhawk on June 29, 2006, 19:22:09
This is just too much. Something must be done. I'm so pissed right now  >:(

I will have to think about what I want to say about this before I rant about this one.  :rage:



Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: George Wallace on June 29, 2006, 19:51:50
This is just too much. Something must be done. I'm so pissed right now  >:(

I will have to think about what I want to say about this before I rant about this one.  :rage:

Wait 'till you see the news later tonight on the Canadian Government's proposal to bring 19-year-old Omar Khadr to Canada from Guantanamo Bay.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: George Wallace on June 30, 2006, 18:52:01
UPDATE

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=f3b16de6-f361-491e-8d39-62e8830a0719&k=66282

 
Bring Khadr to Canada: Lawyer
U.S. Supreme Court quashes Guantanamo military tribunals
 
Sheldon Alberts
The Ottawa Citizen


Friday, June 30, 2006

WASHINGTON - The lawyer for a Canadian teen held at Guantanamo Bay by the U.S. military is urging the Canadian government to have him extradited home to be tried now that the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled American military tribunals are illegal.

Omar Khadr, 19, has been detained at Guantanamo since his arrest in October 2002 for allegedly killing a U.S. soldier and wounding another during a firefight in Afghanistan.

Now that a military tribunal will not be allowed to decide his fate, lawyers for Mr. Khadr are hoping that he will finally be sent home.

"It leaves the U.S. government in a bit of a bind as to what to do with him," Dennis Edney, one of Mr. Khadr's Canadian lawyers, said in an interview from Edmonton. "It turns everything on its head."

The United States Supreme Court yesterday struck down the system of war crimes tribunals established by President George W. Bush to try "enemy combatants," ruling the military commissions violated U.S. law and the Geneva Conventions.

In a 5-3 decision, the high court found Mr. Bush had overstepped his authority as president by creating the commissions and said he failed to provide detainees with basic legal protections.

The decision throws the U.S. government's case against Mr. Khadr into legal limbo.

"The government of Canada really ought to be demanding him back," said Muneer Ahmad, a civilian attorney who has represented Mr. Khadr at two pre-trial hearings this year at Guantanamo.

"The United States' own Supreme Court has thrown the whole thing out. ... It is time for Canada to say enough is enough, we can't permit our citizen to languish in this system any longer."

Because Mr. Khadr was charged under a military tribunal system now deemed invalid, "I don't think the charges will survive," Mr. Ahmad said.

The Supreme Court decision dealt specifically with conspiracy charges against Salim Hamdan, a 36-year-old Guantanamo detainee who had served as a driver to Osama bin Laden.

In a 73-page opinion written by Justice John Paul Stevens, the court agreed with the argument that the tribunals were not authorized by any act of Congress or common law in the U.S.

The high court also found the tribunals violated U.S. law because they allowed for the inclusion of evidence obtained under coercion and because defendants were not allowed to see or hear certain evidence against them.

The military commissions failed to meet "the barest" rights accorded under the U.S. Uniform Code of Military Justice, including the right for a defendant to be present at a hearing against him.

"The rules specified for Hamdan's trial are illegal," wrote Judge Stevens, 86, widely considered the court's most liberal justice.

The high court's decision does not require Mr. Bush to close Guantanamo, nor does it forbid the U.S. from holding indefinitely those prisoners classified as enemy combatants.

Of the 450 detainees still held at Guantanamo, only 10 had been charged with offences under the tribunal system.

Reacting to the decision, Mr. Bush raised the possibility of opening negotiations with Congress on a system of military tribunals that would conform to the Supreme Court's ruling.

"The American people need to know that this ruling, as I understand it, won't cause killers to be put out on the street. ... I'm not going to jeopardize the safety of the American people."

The Supreme Court ruling comes two weeks after three detainees at Guantanamo committed suicide, the first deaths at the prison since it opened in late 2001. Dozens of detainees have also staged periodic hunger strikes to protest their detentions, tactics the base commander at Guantanamo said were part of the terrorists' "jihad" against the United States.

"I want to find a way forward," said Mr. Bush, who recently said his preference would be to close Guantanamo altogether.

"I would like for there to be a way to return people from Guantanamo to their home countries, but some people need to be tried in our courts."

© The Ottawa Citizen 2006
 
Copyright © 2006 CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest MediaWorks Publications, Inc.. All rights reserved.
 
 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GO!!! on July 01, 2006, 11:34:45
Simple fix:

We cannot release these detainees until the GWOT has been decided, because they will only rejoin the fight against us. As such, we will only detain these individuals until the terrorist attacks against western civilisation stop.

German and Italian troops and officers were detained in Canada and the US during WWII and released after the cessation of hostilities, I fail to see why this precedent cannot be followed.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on July 03, 2006, 22:09:12
It's a little dated, but maybe something similiar should happen here....
 
Benefits stopped to 'al-Qa'eda' families
By George Jones, Political Editor
(Filed: 04/07/2006)

The Treasury took action yesterday to stop the households of people suspected of links to al-Qa'eda and the Taliban from receiving state benefits and tax credits
 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/07/04/nterr204.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/07/04/ixuknews.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/07/04/nterr204.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/07/04/ixuknews.html)
 
 
 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Target Up on July 03, 2006, 22:16:49
Yaknow, they used to call 5th to 12th century the "Dark Ages".  They did have this wonderful little tradition called "exile" or "banishment" in some circles..... Last call arseholes, you don't have to go home, but you can't stay here...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on July 03, 2006, 22:22:06
Far northern Quebec, Ontario, etc...I'm sure the Inuit won't mind them scrambling about in their territory...we'll even give them a bow & arrows and some snare wire. Should do just fine.  >:D
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Target Up on July 03, 2006, 22:25:14
I'd rather see them under a condition that if they came within a decent bowshot of Canadian soil, it's jail for life, no trial, no appeals, but that's just me.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on July 03, 2006, 22:28:13
and just about anybody else....except Jack & buddies 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: snowy on July 04, 2006, 21:14:51
these people come to our land, eat our bread, and spit on our soil. the conclusion to sentence the Al-Qaida family would be depribe them of all canadian privileges and send them back from were they came from. :)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Thucydides on July 05, 2006, 14:03:58
The only problem with Snowy's solution is what to do with the ones born and raised here in Canada? Not just the Khadr children, but people like the 17 recently arrested for plotting to use three tons of Ammonium Nitrate to level CBC HQ, the Parliament buildings etc.

Sad to say, but there will probably have to be a "Gitmo North" facility created one of these days to house Canadian violent offenders who are willing to deprive all Canadians of their rights and freedoms, and who will probably remain dangerous offenders for the remainder of their natural lives.
 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: karl28 on July 05, 2006, 14:10:58
I think if any one is caught betraying there country like the 17 who where caught in Toronto regardless of who they are  they should be executed after a swift trail that will send a message that where not going ot tolerate that kind of behavior in Canada.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: North Star on July 07, 2006, 20:50:27
Yeah, but we're big softies.

My solution: Room 101 (Anybody get the reference?)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Roy Harding on July 07, 2006, 21:18:04
...

My solution: Room 101 (Anybody get the reference?)

Reference:  1984, by George Orwell.  Room 101 contained "the worst thing in the world", which, as a recall, for our heroic protaganist was rats. 

I imagine for the Khadrs, it would be pigs.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GO!!! on July 08, 2006, 02:30:22
I imagine for the Khadrs, it would be pigs.

The worst thing in the world for the Khadrs?

It would have to be locked in room 101 with these strutting idiots.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/SPORT/08/12/us.flagwaving/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2004/SPORT/08/12/us.flagwaving/index.html)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Octavianus on July 21, 2006, 11:10:42

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&pubid=968163964505&cid=1153433434529&col=968705899037&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News


Khadr turns his back on American legal help
Detainee wants to meet with Canadian lawyers Letters blamed
on Toronto teen's state of mind
Jul. 21, 2006. 01:00 AM
MICHELLE SHEPHARD
STAFF REPORTER

Guantanamo Bay detainee Omar Khadr has written letters to his Canadian lawyers and mother, telling them he no longer wants help from the Washington attorneys who have advocated for his release, or the military lawyers who were appointed to defend him.

The 19-year-old former Toronto resident also requested that all court applications filed on his behalf be withdrawn and asked to meet with the two Edmonton-based lawyers who have been fighting for his rights in Canada, but who have not yet talked with him.

The letters were written earlier this month and brought to Canada by an official with the Department of Foreign Affairs who visited the teenager at the U.S. naval base in Cuba.

His writing is filled with spelling and grammatical errors and without punctuation.

"i hope you are not mad on me and am not and will not and dont thank because im not writing you often its because the situation down here thes days but will write when it gets better and please dear mom don't be mad," he writes in the July 13 letter to his mother Maha Elsamnah, who lives in Toronto.

"i have fired all my American lawyer i think i'm better with out them and Allah is our defender and helper."

Edmonton-based lawyer Dennis Edney said yesterday that he would try to get to the navy base to visit Khadr, but that his transportation is dependent on the co-operation of the Canadian and U.S. governments and so far has been denied.

"He has been treated badly by the same U.S. authorities in Guantanamo Bay who have provided him with their own military lawyers to represent him," Edney said. "In those circumstances it must be difficult for him to trust anyone."

The letters came as a shock to Lt. Col. Colby Vokey who was appointed to defend Khadr and has just returned to the U.S. after travelling to Afghanistan, Toronto and Ottawa to meet with those who know the teenager. But Vokey said yesterday he wasn't surprised that Khadr would be suspicious of any Americans and said he thinks the teen's detainment, now back in solitary confinement, is taking a toll.

Khadr was one of 10 detainees at Guantanamo charged with war crimes for allegedly throwing a grenade that killed a U.S. soldier during a July 2002 battle in Afghanistan. The top U.S. court ruled last month that the military tribunals violate American and international law but the U.S. administration has said it will work with Congress to develop a new process.

Calls to close Guantanamo got louder recently with the suicides of three of the 460 detainees.

"There have been the suicides, then the Supreme Court decision and he's held all alone. This is one confused kid down there," Vokey said.

Vokey intended to meet with Khadr this week but said he was told at the last minute that there wasn't a seat on the military flight he was scheduled to take.

This is not the first time Khadr has said he wants to fire his lawyers. Last year, before Vokey was appointed, he wrote a similar letter saying he no longer wanted to meet with his non-military American lawyers Muneer Ahmad and Rick Wilson, who are also representing him at Guantanamo and in a civil case challenging the legality of his detention.

The lawyers later met him and said Khadr changed his mind and blamed his letter on the helplessness and desperation he felt at the time.

Ahmad and Wilson have been concerned about Khadr's mental state for months and have been lobbying to get independent doctors to the base so he can be assessed. The Pentagon has refused the request, saying there are medical professionals at the camp who can treat him.



Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Skaha on July 21, 2006, 13:08:19
Remember it was Jean Cretin who PERSONALLY intervened to get this family new passports after they "lost" theirs while training in Afghanistan with  Osama et al  . . .. . translation they sold them to counterfeiters.

Next time somebody praises Chretien's PM reign, remind them that a sitting CanadianPrime Minister personally responded to a terrorist's con job and got a whole family of terrorists new international travel documents.

Chretien . .   french for *******
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Octavianus on August 11, 2006, 12:25:00
http://www.torontosun.ca/News/TorontoAndGTA/2006/08/11/1744314-sun.html
      

Fri, August 11, 2006
'Everyone's against us'
Khadr matriarch says Muslims being targeted by media, cops

By NATALIE PONA, TORONTO SUN



 Fatmah Elsamnah hadn't heard about the plot revealed yesterday to allegedly blow up U.S.-bound planes.

And she didn't know about this summer's arrest of alleged terrorists in the GTA, she said.

The matriarch of the Khadr family, who has two grandsons in custody on terrorism charges, said she doesn't watch the news anymore, troubled by what she contends are Muslims being targeted by the police and the press.

"They're always against us because we are Muslim. Everyone's against us now," Elsamnah said yesterday, from her Scarborough home.

"We have a big problem. We live in agony," said Elsamnah, 66, whose family knows Osama bin Laden. "(The media) write against us like we are your enemy. Why?"

The allegations against her own family prove officials can be wrong, she said.

"Many people are in jail now. Why?" she said, of the recent arrests. "They are innocent. They did not do anything, at least in Canada."

Elsamnah's grandson, Abdullah Khadr, 24, was arrested here in mid-December at the request of the U.S.

His brother, Omar, 19, has been in a Guantanamo Bay jail since 2002 when he allegedly threw a grenade that killed and wounded American soldiers in Afghanistan.

They are the sons of Ahmed Said Khadr, killed in a firefight with Pakistani forces in 2003.

No one believes the accusations against her family are false, she said, adding her experience is just the new way of life for Muslims.

"We sit and wait for God's help. We are helpless. Nobody wants to know the truth," she said. "I run away to Canada for a free country. Now I am in jail in my house. I go outside and my neighbour looks at me like I am a criminal."




Where is the smiley face with a violin. So sad, too bad
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on August 11, 2006, 12:37:16
Quote
I go outside and my neighbour looks at me like I am a criminal."

She is
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Kalatzi on August 11, 2006, 12:52:19
"They are innocent. They did not do anything, at least in Canada."

At least in Canada? Rationalization like that is mind boggling ...

I dont recall if it was the 70''s or 80's when some Armenien??? I hope I got the origin right, Group Capped a security guard at the Turkish embassy.

One of their lawyers said that Canadians were racsist for objecting too immigrants dragging their quarrels over with them.

I guess that makes me a racsist

Oh well
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Xfire on August 11, 2006, 12:54:51
Quote
They are innocent. They did not do anything, at least in Canada
Isn't Terriosm aginst International law? and when we do catch you and deport them, everyone b*tches and says there going to be Tortured.

Quote
Nobody wants to know the truth

WE know the thruth, but you CAN'T handle the truth.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Sheep Dog AT on August 11, 2006, 13:00:08
Maybe she should go to a place where they will be liked.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on August 11, 2006, 13:00:41
Maybe she should go to a place where they will be liked.
Afghanistan  :)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GO!!! on August 11, 2006, 18:33:55
Afghanistan  :)

No no, we can't send them there!

One of her grandchildren was paralysed in a firefight with US troops. Since he needs medical care and appliances, we will keep him here and pay for it, so he doe'snt have to suffer.

Only patriotic Canadians go to Afghanistan.  ::)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on August 12, 2006, 03:23:43
Reference:  1984, by George Orwell.  Room 101 contained "the worst thing in the world", which, as a recall, for our heroic protaganist was rats. 

I imagine for the Khadrs, it would be pigs.


+1 for ya mate.

Cheers,

Wes
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: big bad john (John Hill) on September 02, 2006, 22:22:56
http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Worthington_Peter/2006/09/01/pf-1791710.html

Give this Khadr a break
By PETER WORTHINGTON

If you ask me, Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay got it wrong when he refused a passport to Abdurahman Khadr for security reasons.

What he should have done is okay 23-year-old Abdurahman his passport -- and start moves to revoke the Canadian citizenship of the rest of the Khadr family, which appears to have more allegiance to al-Qaida than to Canada.

When Federal Court Justice Michael Phelan ruled last June that Abdurahman should not be denied a passport, it surely obligated MacKay to issue him one.

For those with short memories, Abdurahman has said he rejects the al-Qaida creed and is at odds with the rest of his family.

True, he has freely admitted that when he was a kid, his family lived in Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida compound in Afghanistan, and he was in training to be a suicide bomber or fighter.

When captured in 2001 by the Americans and sent to Guantanamo Bay, it turned out there was not only no evidence against him, but he apparently co-operated and was released.

He says he's against terrorism, and that he helped U.S. security in Cuba and Bosnia -- a claim the Americans don't challenge.

The rest of the Khadr family are another matter -- notorious for exploiting Canada and supporting our enemies.

The patriarch of the family, Egyptian-born Ahmed Said Khadr, was in custody in Pakistan in 1995 and charged with trying to blow up the Egyptian embassy. He was released as a goodwill gesture at the personal request of then-PM Jean Chretien, but killed in 2003 when Pakistani troops attacked an al-Qaida position.

It was then learned that the elder Ahmed Said Khadr was an al-Qaida financier, had moved his family to live in bin Laden's compound and enrolled his sons in al-Qaida training.

The youngest son, Karim, was partially paralyzed by a gunshot in the same battle in which his father was killed.

Another son, Omar, was the only survivor in a fight with Marines and is now in Guantanamo, charged with murdering a medic with a grenade and wounding another who treated him (the wounded medic's family is suing him).

Another son, Abdullah, is in Canada, fighting extradition to the U.S. for allegedly supplying al-Qaida with weapons.

Abdurahman's mother and sister returned to Canada to get medical treatment for Karim and when interviewed, proclaimed faith in al-Qaida and reviled Canada -- the mother even declaring pride if her son became a suicide bomber.

Only Abdurahman has categorically rejected his family's ethic, and proven by his actions that he wants a normal life.

One wonders why CSIS and the government have it in for him. Why shouldn't he have a passport? If other countries don't want him as a visitor, they can refuse him a visa.

I'd argue Abdurahman has earned an opportunity to prove himself a worthy citizen. Unless there's something we don't know, MacKay should return and renew his passport.

More serious are terror suspects who are not citizens and face deportation who want -- and in some cases get -- the freedom of our streets. If we won't deport illegals who claim they'll be mistreated if they're sent home, surely Canada will become a haven for undesirables.

Small wonder some view Canada as an incubator for terrorists. If we catch them, or even suspect them, we don't get rid of them.

At least Abdurahman Khadr has shown by his actions that he is not a terrorist. So give the guy a break.

 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on April 05, 2007, 10:37:55
Ottawa's silence on Omar Khadr
 TheStar.com - opinion - Ottawa's silence on Omar Khadr
April 04, 2007
Article Link (http://www.thestar.com/opinion/article/199122)

"Guantanamo should be closed ... there is a taint about it."

That was U.S. Defence Secretary Robert Gates, speaking to American lawmakers just a few days ago about the infamous military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where 385 alleged terrorists are being held. He is right. The "military commission" trials being held at "Gitmo" are a travesty of justice that sully America's image and discredit its war on terror.

The American Civil Liberties Union calls the military trials "a mockery, no better than a kangaroo court." And the Democrat-led Congress is considering a bill to reverse a law passed last year by Congress when it was led by the Republicans that stripped away the right that detainees had to contest their incarceration in regular U.S. courts.

Yet even as Americans themselves recoil at the abusive system Washington created to deal with "enemy combatants," Prime Minister Stephen Harper's government remains publicly indifferent to the fate of the only Canadian detainee, Omar Khadr, at that very system's hands.

Now 20 years old, Khadr has been held since he was 15. He may soon face a renewed murder charge before a military commission for killing Sgt. Christopher Speer during a firefight between Al Qaeda and U.S. troops in Afghanistan in 2002. Because the U.S. Supreme Court last year found the previous military process to be unlawful, the charges were quashed. Now, under a rejigged process, they may be reinstated. Khadr faces a maximum sentence of life in prison with no parole.

The trial this week of Australian David Hicks, another detainee held for five years, showed just how shabby the Guantanamo process is. Hicks pleaded guilty to supporting terror and drew nine months, to be served back home. In exchange, prosecutors extracted a statement from Hicks that he had not been subjected to "illegal" treatment, had him waive his right to sue for damages and imposed a one-year gag order not to talk about his detention. Why were military prosecutors so eager to restrain Hicks in so many ways? To insulate themselves from claims of abuse?

Khadr can expect nothing like a Canadian standard of justice if he is put before a military commission. True, he belongs to a notorious family that supported Al Qaeda. But, like every accused, he should have due process.
More on link
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Weinie on April 05, 2007, 13:37:33
   From later on in the article:

     
Quote
Canada's Youth Criminal Justice Act sets a maximum six years in custody for first degree, planned and deliberate murder, and four years for second degree. By our standards, Khadr has done ample time even if he were found guilty. Releasing him into Canadian custody, with a bond to keep the peace, should not shock the American public conscience.
 

      That fact that deliberate planned murder by a youth in canada only nets max 6 years should shock Canadian public conscience.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on April 24, 2007, 18:22:07
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/War_Terror/2007/03/08/3715883-cp.html
U.S. to charge Khadr with murder

WASHINGTON (CP) - The Pentagon has formally approved charges against Canadian terror suspect Omar Khadr.
The move means Khadr, the only Canadian held at the U.S. prison camp in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, will face arraignment within a month and the start of his tribunal within four months. Khadr, 20, is accused of murdering a U.S. medic in Afghanistan in 2002.

He also faces charges of attempted murder, conspiracy, spying and providing material support for terrorism.
Khadr has been in U.S. custody since he was 15, and his lawyers have repeatedly urged Canada to step in to ensure his rights aren't violated.

The original charges were thrown out last year when the U.S. Supreme Court said the legal process for so-called enemy combatants was illegal, but Congress has since passed new rules for Guantanamo prisoners.
 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on April 24, 2007, 19:10:53
The one big thing that concerns me is that, some time, some day, this fella will be released from jail and be allowed to return to Canada (he is a Citzen after all!).

5 years of cooling his jets in Guantanamo and saaay a 10 to 20 yrs conviction.  Talk about a fella that'll have an attitude.  What are you & I going to do with someone like that?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on April 24, 2007, 19:15:02
Whats one more with the thousands and thousands we have roaming around now after doing 20 years in jail?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: uncle-midget-Oddball on April 24, 2007, 20:11:59
Whats one more with the thousands and thousands we have roaming around now after doing 20 years in jail?
The ones roaming the streets now that have committed a murder did so as a "regular" crime. 

Khadr committed this crime believing that Allah god supported him. He was fighting a Jihad, and everyone here knows that a Jihad will not end with being arrested and imprisoned.


PS: I hate to call the murders happening here a "regular" crime, but it was the best fitting word for comparing to Khadr's.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Fishbone Jones on April 24, 2007, 20:56:05
The one big thing that concerns me is that, some time, some day, this fella will be released from jail and be allowed to return to Canada (he is a Citzen after all!).

5 years of cooling his jets in Guantanamo and saaay a 10 to 20 yrs conviction.  Talk about a fella that'll have an attitude.  What are you & I going to do with someone like that?

...........but he won't be going to jail in Canada, where 'life' means 10 years (maybe). I doubt we'll see him free in 20 years. There's all the other serious charges pending also. If they say 'life' down there, they usually mean it.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on April 24, 2007, 21:05:33
can I get that in writing - please?

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on April 24, 2007, 21:32:20
I think Foreign Affairs should petition the US to ensure NO discrimination.....he should serve his time in the general population.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Fishbone Jones on April 24, 2007, 22:20:48
can I get that in writing - please?

I'm not hedging my bets yet. They have an election coming.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: proudnurse on April 26, 2007, 02:44:43
Kitchener-Waterloo Record, Wed; Apr 25, 2007

Article Link http://www.therecord.com/news/world/w042458A.html


Reproduced under the fairdealings provisions of the copyright act.

Pentagon lays new charges against Khadr in bid to get military tribunal going
BETH GORHAM

WASHINGTON (CP) - The U.S. Defence Department laid new terrorism charges Tuesday against Canadian Omar Khadr, paving the way for a long-delayed military tribunal at Guantanamo Bay.

Khadr, 20, who has been in U.S. military custody since he was 15 years old, is accused of murdering an American medic in Afghanistan in 2002. He also faces charges of attempted murder, conspiracy, spying and providing material support for terrorism.

The Pentagon said Khadr will be arraigned within a month at the American prison camp in Cuba and jury selection will begin within four months.

A trial schedule will be set after that.

Khadr may become only the second detainee to face a tribunal. Australian David Hicks reached a plea deal with U.S. authorities last month.

Lawyers for Khadr were livid Tuesday, saying the new charges aren't valid war crimes and he doesn't stand a chance of a fair trial despite changes to the system made by Congress last year after the U.S. Supreme Court declared it illegal.

"This is a system designed to produce convictions," said Khadr's civilian lawyer, Muneer Ahmad, a law professor at George Washington University.

Khadr's tribunal will be a "show trial" he said, and an attempt to prove the military commissions work after the Hicks deal short-circuited Guantanamo's first tribunal.

"The Ringling Brothers (of big-top circus fame) would be proud," said Ahmad.

"Hicks was a disaster for them. Everyone knows there was no law involved in that. It exposed the system as the same crazy ad hoc one thrown out by the Supreme Court the first time, he said.

"This is a hell of way to try to rehabilitate yourself."

Khadr's lawyers have repeatedly urged Canada to step in like Australia did to ensure Hicks could serve his prison term at home after he pleaded guilty.

But Khadr's chief military lawyer, Colby Vokey, who condemned the entire process as a "kangaroo court," said he has no sense that Canada is more willing now to negotiate a political solution.

Unlike most western countries, Canada hasn't publicly stated a position on the commissions or the prison camp. Britain, for instance, has refused to allow its citizens to be tried there.

Khadr, who attended some pre-trial hearings in January 2006 before the tribunals were declared illegal, hasn't seen his lawyers for several months.

In his first phone call to his family in Toronto in nearly five years, Khadr said last month he plans to boycott his trial and has no hopes of justice.

Vokey says he sympathizes entirely and has repeatedly asked that he be assigned some Canadian lawyers as well.

Khadr, who says he's been tortured and held in isolation for long periods, is charged with throwing the grenade that killed U.S. army Sgt. Christopher Speer in Afghanistan on July 27, 2002.

The Pentagon charge sheet also alleges Khadr converted landmines into improvised explosive devices and planted them to kill U.S. or coalition forces.

The conspiracy support of terrorism and spying violations allege Khadr received training from al-Qaida in 2002 and conducted survelliance against the U.S. military.

Rights groups have rallied behind the Canadian, blasting the U.S. for trying someone who was a child at the time of the alleged war crimes.

© The Canadian Press, 2007
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: proudnurse on April 26, 2007, 03:15:35
I thought I would place my thoughts and feelings in respect to this, in a reply below as to keep the post for the article, easier to read. The article is stating, that Khadr has not had a chance to call home for 5 years. What about the Medic that was murdered that will not ever be able to call home again? I remember reading this article at work tonight, and in the past as I have followed it a little bit as it has come up. My question to myself, when I read articles such as this, is why is there such a need to run to the "rescue" of individuals that commit acts of Terror? And it makes me just as disappointed to hear of any "Rights" group that would stand behind anyone that commits these acts of violence, as stated at the end of the article. Shame on them.

~Rebecca
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: luckystrike on April 26, 2007, 14:43:35
Here's a link to an interesting article regarding the laws governing the military trials of terror suspects and perpetrators.
http://www.aclu.org/natsec/emergpowers/14373leg20011129.html

This is an excerpt from the article linked above which I believe may shed some light on your question of "why people support the terrorists?"

The breadth of the President's order raises serious constitutional concerns. It permits the United States criminal justice system to be swept aside merely on the President's finding that he has "reason to believe" that a non-citizen may be involved in terrorism. It makes no difference whether those charged are captured abroad on the field of battle or at home by federal or state police. It makes no difference whether the individual is a visitor or a long-term legal resident. Finally while the order applies in terms only to non-citizens, the precedents on which the President relies make no such distinction, permitting the order to be extended to cover United States citizens at the stroke of a pen.

The basic, fundamental rights guaranteed in United States courts and in ordinary courts-martial will not necessarily be afforded the defendants. The order purports to prevent review by any civilian court - including the Supreme Court of the United States - to ensure that even those rights ostensibly granted in the military proceeding are not violated. The rules and regulations that govern the tribunals are still being formulated. But, at the Pentagon's discretion, trials can be conducted in secret, and evidence can be introduced without the defendant being able to confront it. Only two thirds of the military officers on the tribunal's jury need find a defendant guilty, and the order provides for no meaningful appeal, even in cases involving the death penalty. Other basic rights remain unprotected. These rights seek to ensure that the government gets it right, punishing the guilty and permitting the innocent to be cleared.

In lieu of these comments you should see how these provisions could seem threatening to any citizens rights and freedoms.  Obviously these sanctions on the regular justice system were not imposed to detain your average citizen at the slightest whim of the president's fancy, but rather for the purpose of detaining legitimate terror suspects.

The real issue behind support of these suspects is that anyone who's bickering about these cases is obviously left of centre (at least...most likely far to the left).  That's why you have statements coming from them like "He was only a child when he threw the grenade :crybaby:".  Oh well...so what, give him another 5 years then.  Anyone that thinks that living in Afghanistan he would have shifted to a more lenient stance on Western policy is out of their mind...it would have been the complete opposite.  That's why we're fighting there for God sake!!

These people are terrified of anything that may infringes upon their rights and freedoms (even if it's intent is to bolster national security)...They are the types of people who like to organize protests and parades in support of whatever the hot button issue is at the time, be it the rain forest, gay rights, abortion or the rights of potential terror suspects.  They're afraid that they'll have their rights to protest/clamour about their little pet projects smashed to pieces by "Big Brother".  The bottom line here really is that these people don't live in a little place I like to call REALITY...and I stop right there before I fly off the handle and go on an angry rant. :salute:
hope this gives you some insight

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: dapaterson on June 03, 2007, 19:39:24
From today's New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/03/us/03gitmo.html?hp=&pagewanted=all

Quote

A Legal Debate in Guantánamo on Boy Fighters

By WILLIAM GLABERSON
Published: June 3, 2007

The facts of Omar Ahmed Khadr’s case are grim. The shrapnel from the grenade he is accused of throwing ripped through the skull of Sgt. First Class Christopher J. Speer, who was 28 when he died.

To American military prosecutors, Mr. Khadr is a committed Al Qaeda operative, spy and killer who must be held accountable for killing Sergeant Speer in 2002 and for other bloody acts he committed in Afghanistan.

But there is one fact that may not fit easily into the government’s portrait of Mr. Khadr: He was 15 at the time.

His age is at the center of a legal battle that is to begin tomorrow with an arraignment by a military judge at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, of Mr. Khadr, whom a range of legal experts describe as the first child fighter in decades to face war-crimes charges. It is a battle with implications as large as the growing ranks of child fighters around the world.

Defense lawyers argue that military prosecutors are violating international law by filing charges that date from events that occurred when Mr. Khadr was 15 or younger. Legal concepts that are still evolving, the lawyers say, require that countries treat child fighters as victims of warfare, rather than war criminals.

The military prosecutors say such notions may be “well-meaning and worthy,” but are irrelevant to the American military commissions at Guantánamo. Mr. Khadr is one of only three Guantánamo detainees to face charges under the law establishing the commissions, passed by Congress last year.

...

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Roy Harding on June 04, 2007, 13:12:20
Quote
The charges against Omar Khadr, the only Canadian being held in the U.S. military's Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba, have been dropped.

Khadr, 20, had been facing charges of murder and terrorism, and was scheduled to be tried before a U.S. military commission in Cuba. He was to be arraigned on Monday.

More on link - here:  http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/06/04/khadr-charges.html
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Technoviking on June 04, 2007, 13:15:14
Does this mean he's free to return to Canada?  Gee, I sure hope so  ::)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: E.R. Campbell on June 04, 2007, 13:21:09
Does this mean he's free to return to Canada?  Gee, I sure hope so  ::)

They captured him in Afghanistan.  I believe they should return him to the point of capture ... maybe the locals want him.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Technoviking on June 04, 2007, 13:24:07
They captured him in Afghanistan.  I believe they should return him to the point of capture ... maybe the locals want him.
That's a good point. 
"Sorry, we have nothing against you.  Please watch your head as you enter the aircraft."
"You're taking me to Toronto, right?"
"Um, no sir.  We're taking you back to where we found you."
"Afghanistan?  But, I'm Canadian!"
"That's ok, there are plenty of Canadians in Afghanistan.  I'm sure they'll take good care of you, sir."
*gulp*

 >:D
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: milnews.ca on June 04, 2007, 13:24:57
According to this American State Dep't official (http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=0a1a248e-0750-4a4d-a394-9b24e60538ec&k=44114), Khadr could remain a guest for some time....

Quote
Canadian Omar Khadr faces the possibility of indefinite imprisonment at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, even if he is acquitted of murder and terrorism charges at his war crimes trial later this year, a senior U.S. State Department official said (29 May 07) ....  John Bellinger, the legal adviser to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, said the U.S. military could keep Khadr behind bars if he is found not guilty because it has already determined he is an 'unlawful enemy combatant' not subject to the same rights as a prisoner of war.  Although there is a "certain expectation that someone might be released" if found not guilty, the U.S. claims it would have the right under international law to keep Khadr detained until the end of the ongoing war with al-Qaida - a military conflict that could continue for decades.  "As a matter of law, we believe we may continue to hold someone even if they are acquitted," Bellinger told a group of Canadian reporters.  The detainees at Guantanamo "continue to be held because they are combatants and they would return to acts of combat," he said, "and we think, as a matter of international law, one can hold them until the end of that conflict."

(CanWest News Service, 30 May 07)

A bit more detail, courtesy of Associated Press (http://www.recorder.ca/cp/National/070604/n060436A.html), shared with the usual disclaimers...

Quote
A military judge has dismissed charges against Canadian detainee Omar Khadr, saying the matter is outside the jurisdiction of the military tribunal system.

The ruling Monday by army Col. Peter Brownback came just minutes into Khadr's arraignment, in which he faced charges he committed murder in violation of the law of war, attempted murder in violation of the law of war, conspiracy, providing material support for terrorism and spying.

Khadr had been classified as an "enemy combatant" by a military panel years earlier at Guantanamo Bay, but because he was not classified as an "alien unlawful enemy combatant," Brownback said he had no choice but to throw the case out.

The Military Commissions Act, signed by President George W. Bush last year after the U.S. Supreme Court threw out the previous war-crimes trial system, says specifically that only those classified as "unlawful" enemy combatants can face war trials here.

Khadr has been in U.S. custody since he was captured in Afghanistan in 2002.

The 20-year-old was charged with murdering U.S. medic Sgt. Christopher Speer.

But activists such as Human Rights Watch argued Khadr, too, is a victim who was dragged to meet al-Qaida leaders at age 10 and sent into the battlefield at 15.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Journeyman on June 04, 2007, 13:28:27
While I'll await more details on why the change of heart by the prosecution.....I am willing to bet he'll be suing the Canadian government on some pretext or other.  ::)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: KevinB on June 04, 2007, 13:33:33
This guy needs to die.

Period - Full Stop

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Technoviking on June 04, 2007, 13:43:30
Is the Globe and Mail "editorialising" in its headline to this story?

U.S. case against Khadr collapses

(source:  http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070604.wkhadr0604_1/BNStory/International/home)
GUANTANAMO BAY, Cuba — Charges against Omar Khadr were dismissed Monday by a military judge who ruled that his tribunal had no jurisdiction to try the alleged terrorist because the government had failed to designate him an "unlawful enemy combatant.''
"Charges are dismissed with prejudice," Colonel Peter Brownback ruled.
Congress created the military tribunals only to try so-called "unlawful" enemy combatants. The military panel that ruled on Mr. Khadr's status in 2004 designated him as an "enemy combatant."
Whether Monday's legal bombshell really means that Mr. Khadr faces no charges and might perhaps even be released or whether the government will find a way to file new charges against him remains unclear.
Mr. Khadr showed no emotion when the ruling was announced. He was quickly marched out of the courtroom with two guards holding his arms.
Wearing drab prison garb and black flip-flops during the two brief sessions, Mr. Khadr refused to stand as his hearing began — signalling his disdain for the U.S. military tribunal that was intended to try him on murder and terrorist charges.Mr. Khadr, now 20 and with a full beard and unruly hair, said nothing during the two sessions.
The ramifications for Mr. Khadr and hundreds of other detainees at prisons at this U.S. naval station in Cuba remain unclear.
Court was adjourned."

I don't think that the case "collapsed" against "Mr." Khadr.  Rather, there are questions about jurisdiction.  That's all.  My question: would a more appropriate headline had been "US drops charges against Khadr"






Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: milnews.ca on June 04, 2007, 13:48:27
Good point, Capt S:
CanWest/National Post - Judge dismisses charges against Canadian Guantanamo detainee
BBC - Guantanamo Canadian case dropped
CBC - Charges dropped against Khadr in Guantanamo
Reuters - Guantanamo judge drops Canadian's charges

If MSM is to be believed (in this case, the Globe & Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070604.wkhadr0604_1/BNStory/International/home)), it sounds like a classification error of sorts.....

Quote
Charges against Omar Khadr were dismissed Monday by a military judge who ruled that his tribunal had no jurisdiction to try the alleged terrorist because the government had failed to designate him an "unlawful enemy combatant.''  "Charges are dismissed with prejudice," Colonel Peter Brownback ruled.  Congress created the military tribunals only to try so-called "unlawful" enemy combatants. The military panel that ruled on Mr. Khadr's status in 2004 designated him as an "enemy combatant."

Funny - his indictment (here (http://milnewstbay.pbwiki.com/f/Khadrreferral.pdf) in .pdf) filed in April of this year pretty clearly identifies him as an "alien unlawful enemy combatant".  Have to be patient, I guess, and wait for the primary paperwork to come in...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: CanadaPhil on June 04, 2007, 13:49:30
Unflipping believable.

Something to do with the prosecutors messing up the distinction between LEGAL and ILLEGAL combatants.

This does NOT mean that he will be released and will apparently remain in custody indefinately.

I say fine, deem them as LEGAL combatants!! Since the war on TERROR will not be over anytime soon, and since the Taliban have vowed to "retake" Afghanistan, then the US would be well within there rights to keep them until their "LEGAL" enemy, SURRENDERS!. Until then, they can remain "POWS" and work on their Cuban suntans.



Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on June 04, 2007, 14:00:06
That's a good point. 
"Sorry, we have nothing against you.  Please watch your head as you enter the aircraft."
"You're taking me to Toronto, right?"
"Um, no sir.  We're taking you back to where we found you."
"Afghanistan?  But, I'm Canadian!"
"That's ok, there are plenty of Canadians in Afghanistan.  I'm sure they'll take good care of you, sir."
*gulp*

 >:D

This sounds about right, or turn him over to the ANA....his crimes were committed in Afghanistan...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on June 04, 2007, 14:03:54
well.... if he wasn't an unlawful combatant, then he is a lawful combatant.
Given that the war isn't over, guess that means that he is a POW.

March him back to his cell,
lock cell,
throw away the key,
B/F his docket to the day that war in Afghanistan is declared over.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: tomahawk6 on June 04, 2007, 14:08:33
Looks like the Army has a video showing Khadr planting a roadside bomb. Frankly they should let the kid go and if he returns to the sandbox he can become a martyr.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: KevinB on June 04, 2007, 14:27:24
There where comments elsewhere that he is getting new charges.

Canada had best make a case for treason if the US does not drop the hammer on him.
 Time like this I real an disgusted the Death penalty was removed from the NDA

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: milnews.ca on June 04, 2007, 14:45:04
Canada had best make a case for treason if the US does not drop the hammer on him.

I'm not a lawyer, but sounds like a reasonable fit....
http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/c-46/sec46.html

    PART II: OFFENCES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER
               Treason and other Offences against the Queen’s Authority and Person

High treason   

46. (1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada,

(a) kills or attempts to kill Her Majesty, or does her any bodily harm tending to death or destruction, maims or wounds her, or imprisons or restrains her;

(b) levies war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto; or

(c) assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.

Treason   

(2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada,

(a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province;

(b) without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;

(c) conspires with any person to commit high treason or to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a);

(d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act; or

(e) conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) or forms an intention to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) and manifests that intention by an overt act.

Canadian citizen

(3) Notwithstanding subsection (1) or (2), a Canadian citizen or a person who owes allegiance to Her Majesty in right of Canada,

(a) commits high treason if, while in or out of Canada, he does anything mentioned in subsection (1); or

(b) commits treason if, while in or out of Canada, he does anything mentioned in subsection (2).

Overt act
   

(4) Where it is treason to conspire with any person, the act of conspiring is an overt act of treason.

R.S., c. C-34, s. 46; 1974-75-76, c. 105, s. 2.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: D Squared on June 04, 2007, 14:47:19
~jaw drops~
I couldn't believe it.
I wonder if the fact that he wasn't wearing his ROOTS sweatshirt today means his lawyers have advised him to hold the Canadian  card for now.  There used to be a thing called deportation?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Technoviking on June 04, 2007, 14:54:05
High treason   

46. (1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada,

(c) assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.

Canadian citizen

(3) Notwithstanding subsection (1) or (2), a Canadian citizen or a person who owes allegiance to Her Majesty in right of Canada,

(a) commits high treason if, while in or out of Canada, he does anything mentioned in subsection (1); or

This is what I see as relevant and applicable to Mr. Khadr, potentially.  He could, in my opinion, be tried for high treason if it holds true that he "assisted an enemy at war with Canada", given the NATO invokation of article 5 of the treaty that the act of 9/11 was an act against all member nations.  The fact that there is no "declared" state of war is moot.  Now, the only problem is this (potentially).  IF it could be proved that he "assisted an enemy at war with Canada", what of the fact that AQ has no "state"? 
Perhaps such a charge against Mr. Khadr could be precedent setting in that the restriction to hostilities between nations, declared or not, may be seen as "moot" given the modern day reality of combatants without state.  That or they would have to say that he represented the (defunct) government of Afghanistan (eg: Taliban) at the time of the act.
(No, I am not a lawyer)
EDIT:
If convicted of high treason:
47. (1) Every one who commits high treason is guilty of an indictable offence and shall be sentenced to imprisonment for life.
....
For the purposes of Part XXIII, the sentence of imprisonment for life prescribed by subsection (1) is a minimum punishment.

(source:  http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/c-46/sec47.html)


Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Big Foot on June 04, 2007, 15:02:58
Unbelievable, absolutely unbelievable. I really hope this guy has charges awaiting him when, and if, he arrives back in Canada. He absolutely deserves to be charged with treason. He killed an American soldier, a NATO ally, in a country where we are at war. If he doesn't get charged with treason, or at very least, murder and attempted murder, there is something seriously wrong. With this being said, I am not usually a proponent of the death penalty but provided he is actually guilty of what he is accused of, I say he deserves nothing better than a trip to the gallows. It disgusts me to think that this individual is "entitled" to carry the same passport as the rest of us.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: D Squared on June 04, 2007, 15:08:16
Well said Big Foot  :cdn:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Big Foot on June 04, 2007, 15:13:20
Furthermore, the attitude of his family disgust me. the quote from his sister:
Quote
"We always had hope and we pray and we're going to continue doing that," she told CTV Newsnet.
gives the impression that his family feels he has done nothing wrong, despite mudering an American soldier and fighting for a terrorist organisation in a nation where we are currently at war. How this family is still in Canada, God only knows...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Technoviking on June 04, 2007, 15:16:23
Instead of just focussing on this POS, consider Christopher Speer, the Sergeant First Class whom Khadr is accused of killing.


"He was remembered as a capable and confident soldier with an unflappable sense of humor. When the chips were down, friends said, he could pick up his co-workers with a smile and a laugh"
......
And the only reason he is still breathing today:
"Colonel Morris Davis, Khadr's prosecutor, in statements to the press, said that Khadr owed his life to American medics who stepped over the dead body of their colleague to treat Khadr's wounds. Speer died from his wounds on Aug 6 2002 at the age of 28."
(both above from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_J._Speer)


Here is a condolence page for SFC Speer:  http://www.groups.sfahq.com/3rd/speer_kia.htm

"Six days before he received the wounds that killed him, Sgt. 1st Class Christopher J. Speer walked into a minefield to rescue two wounded Afghan children, according to fellow soldiers.
He applied a tourniquet to one child and bandaged the other, they said. Then he stopped a passing military truck to take the wounded children to a U.S. Army field hospital.
Speer saved those children, his colleagues said."
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: BYT Driver on June 04, 2007, 15:24:04
Khadr WILLINGLY went to Afghanistan, WILLINGLY recieved training on how to blow things up, WILLINGLY threw and explosive at an American convoy.  Was treated by US Forces after killing an American.  Spent 5 years in Qit'mo...umm, can his *** back to Afghanistan and see how he does up against us this time.    :rage:
I hope they do NOT deport his butt up here.    :sniper:
My 0.02   
 :cdn:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Big Foot on June 04, 2007, 15:25:43
I'd almost agree with sending him back to Afghanistan, let him see just how plush Gitmo is when compared to the Kandahar Hilton...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: cplcaldwell on June 04, 2007, 15:49:34
From today's Toronto Star (http://www.thestar.com/News/article/221310), SHared under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act, RSC

My italics added



Quote
Khadr charges dismissed


Jun 04, 2007 01:31 PM
MICHELLE SHEPHARD
Staff Reporter

GUANTANAMO BAY, Cuba – Military charges against Canadian Omar Khadr have been dismissed in a stunning decision that leaves the 20-year-old’s future uncertain and delivers yet another setback in the U.S. government’s attempt to hold trials here.

Judge Army Col Peter Brownback ruled that the military commissions did not have the jurisdiction to hear Khadr’s case following a brief hearing today.  

Khadr had been charged earlier this year with murder in violation of the law of war, attempted murder, conspiracy, spying and providing material support for terrorism.

Brownback stated that all charges were “dismissed without prejudice,” in a surprise ruling during what was supposed to be the former Toronto resident’s arraignment.

This is the second time charges against Khadr have been thrown out. He was first charged with war crimes in 2005 but the U.S. Supreme Court ruled last June that the commissions were illegal and required the endorsement of Congress.

In October, U.S. President George W. Bush signed into law a revised Military Commissions Act, this time with the blessing of Congress.

But Brownback ruled that the commissions were established to try “unlawful enemy combatants,” while Khadr, and all 380 detainees still imprisoned here, underwent administrative hearings where they were determined to be “enemy combatants."

“The commission system has once again demonstrated it’s a failure,” said Guantanamo’s Chief Defense counsel Col. Dwight Sullivan.

“The significance of this ruling today is enormous.”

But what it means for Khadr, and whether he could again be charged, remains unclear.

Today was the first time Khadr has been seen by reporters since his hearing last April. Wearing an olive-coloured prison uniform and black sandals, Khadr did not show any reaction when the charges were dismissed.

Looking much older than last year and now with curly hair and a full beard, Khadr spent almost the entire proceedings watching the screen in front of him that televised the hearing to spectators in the courtroom and other closed circuit monitors on the base.

He spoke briefly with his Canadian attorney Dennis Edney but did not speak publicly.

The Pentagon alleges that Khadr was shot and captured on July 27, 2002 after throwing a grenade that killed Delta Force soldier and medic Chris Speer. Khadr was 15 at the time and the sole survivor inside a suspected Al Qaeda compound that was bombarded with air and ground assaults by U.S. coalition forces.

The prosecution also claims he underwent terrorist training and planted improvised explosive devices to target coalition forces in Afghanistan and said they would show at his trial a video that allegedly depicts Khadr converting landmines into IEDs.

Khadr was taken to Baghram after his capture and received medical treatment until he was transferred to Guantanamo in October 2002, after his 16th birthday.

Australian detainee David Hicks is the only other detainee to have previously faced the new military commission and due to his speedy guilty plea – and a diplomatic arrangement between his government and the U.S. that allowed him to serve a 9-month sentence in Australia – the case is not regarded as a true test of the new law.

Hicks left Guantanamo last month and will likely be released before New Year’s.


Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: BYT Driver on June 04, 2007, 16:47:20
Wow, hard to beleive there are three threads about this POS.  Send him back to Afghanistan and see how he likes it there. 
Sorry, no sympathy here, it's in the dictionary between...you know the rest.
Would like to add this...HE, bag 7, FFE!!!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Yrys on June 04, 2007, 17:34:03
U.S. case against Khadr collapses

(source:  http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070604.wkhadr0604_1/BNStory/International/home)

articles on the same subject

Guantanamo Canadian case dropped

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6720315.stm

 Charges against Guantanamo detainee dismissed

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/06/04/guantananmo.detainee.ap/index.html
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: scas on June 04, 2007, 18:26:48
I am sorry if I offend anyone here, but if he's sent back to Canada, Charge him with High Treason as he is a canadian, then put him in a jail with no windows, and make his roomate Paul bernardo, or some crazy canibal..
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Yrys on June 04, 2007, 18:27:57
or some crazy canibal..

Those are in hospitals.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: seamus on June 04, 2007, 18:41:39
 The latest on Khadr's trial is that it was a technicality.This does not ensure release, as well as prosecutors can just rename under which heading he is being held and retry him. Hopefully the prosecution just resubmits the paper work. Some of the blogs out there concerning this case,(in which I have a fascination), talk about how he is only 15, a minor and how his father,(who moved him there). Had an influence over his thinking process(brainwashed). Hey as far as I am concerned if you are going to pick up the AK-47, you have to pay the price. And the brainwashed garbage, hey my father wanted me to become a doctor. Which I only obtained on some nights in my youth, when I was drunk and trying to pickup. In short he deserves what he gets,(hopefully a long stretch).
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: cplcaldwell on June 04, 2007, 22:21:06
Quite right seamus, take a look at Tom Clark's (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/HTMLTemplate?tf=/ctv/mar/video/new_player.html&cf=ctv/mar/ctv.cfg&hub=TopStories&video_link_high=mms://ctvbroadcast.ctv.ca/video/2007/06/04/ctvvideologger2_500kbps_2007_06_04_1180987670.wmv&video_link_low=mms://ctvbroadcast.ctv.ca/video/2007/06/04/ctvvideologger2_218kbps_2007_06_04_1180985816.wmv&clip_start=00:02:38.49&clip_end=00:02:01.65&clip_caption=CTV Newsnet: Tom Clark explains the legal loophole&clip_id=ctvnews.20070604.00197000-00197837-clip1&subhub=video&no_ads=&sortdate=20070604&slug=khadr_hearing_070604&archive=CTVNews) report from CTV Newsnet, this is not a get out of jail card, just a confirmation that he remains in a limbo.



Note that first link is optimized for high speed, if you have trouble with it try, this link (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070604/khadr_hearing_070604/20070604?hub=TopStories) and choose CTV Newsnet: Tom Clark explains the legal loophole 2:01 , from the menu on the right.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on July 03, 2007, 09:29:38
Judge affirms ruling to dismiss Gitmo charges  
Article Link (http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/07/02/gitmo.charges/index.html)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A military judge on Friday rejected the Pentagon's request to reinstate previously dismissed charges against a prisoner accused of killing a U.S. soldier in Afghanistan in 2001, officials said.

 Judge Army Col. Peter Brownback dropped the charges against Canadian detainee Omar Khadr last month on the grounds Brownback's court lacked the jurisdiction to try him.

Khadr was 15 when he was arrested.

The inability to prosecute centered on Khadr not being labeled an "unlawful" enemy combatant.

Last month, Brownback said new congressional rules on trying detainees specify that a detainee must be designated an "unlawful enemy combatant."

Pentagon officials would not release Brownback's most recent decision, but said he ruled the prosecution had presented no new evidence or arguments to change his mind.

The prosecution has five days to appeal to the Court of Military Commissions Review in Washington
More on link
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Journeyman on July 03, 2007, 09:52:25
OK, my initial thought was to rant about what possible difficulty he could have with Khadr being designated an "unlawful enemy combatant."

- was he actually "lawful," ie - wearing the military uniform of a legal state IAW Geneva Accords?
- was he not an "enemy," ie - was he actually cheering for the anti-AQ coalition forces?
- was he not a "combatant," ie - chucking a grenade that kills a medic during a firefight somehow isn't combat?

...leading me to tar military legal types with the same stereotype brushes as scumbags like OJ's Johnnie Cochran et al.

I can only believe that the judge made his decision so that a higher form of tribunal must hear the case, pre-empting a conviction loss at the hands of those aforementioned loophole lawyers who would eventually appeal the original court's jurisdiction.


Forgive me, however, if my cynicism precludes me holding out much hope against Khadr walking (and the Toronto family cult subsequently suing us taxpayers on some trumped-up grounds)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: dapaterson on July 03, 2007, 11:25:53
Journeyman:

The judge in question did not have jurisdiction to determine whether anyone is an "unlawful enemy combatant" - but for his court to have jurisdiction over someone, they must have already been declared as such.  The prosecution in this case did not provide evidence that Khadr had been declared as such, so the judge stated he had no jurisdiction.

On appeal, the prosecution introduced no new evidence, so the judge did not alter his original decision.


In brief: the prosecution screwed up.  Which is hard to do when you are writing the rules, but somehow they managed to do it...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Journeyman on July 03, 2007, 11:44:20
The judge in question did not have jurisdiction to determine whether anyone is an "unlawful enemy combatant" -
Yes, I read that...perhaps amazingly, I even understood the words.

My point was how could Khadr be determined to be anything BUT an "unlawful enemy combatant."

I apologize for not being a lawyer, but the obvious appeared.......obvious. In the end, this is nothing but another kick at Christopher Speer's widow and family.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on July 07, 2007, 09:58:34
Pentagon Appeals Gitmo Detainee's Case
By PETE YOST The Associated Press Friday, July 6, 2007; 7:11 PM
Article Link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/06/AR2007070601644.html)

WASHINGTON -- The Pentagon said Friday it had appealed a decision by a military judge to dismiss the case of a Guantanamo Bay detainee accused of murdering an American soldier in Afghanistan.

It is the first time that the appeals process has been used since it was created by Congress in late 2006 to handle cases involving Guantanamo detainees.

Omar Ahmed Khadr, a Canadian citizen, is one of two detainees whose military trials fell apart because they were not identified as "unlawful" enemy combatants.

The other is Yemeni detainee Salim Ahmed Hamdan, a former driver for Osama bin Laden.

Prosecutors filed an appeal in Khadr's case with the Court of Military Commission Review on July 4, said Navy Lt. Cmdr. Chito Peppler, a Pentagon spokesman.

Peppler said both sides will be given an opportunity to file written briefs.

Khadr and Hamdan are the only ones currently in the roughly 375-prisoner population at Guantanamo who have been charged with crimes under a reconstituted military trial system. The judge who threw out the charges against Hamdan has not yet ruled on prosecutors' motion to reconsider. Hamdan is accused of conspiracy and providing support for terrorism
More on link
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: E.R. Campbell on July 07, 2007, 11:12:34
I'm about 99.9% sure that I'm missing something but, it looks to me as though the judge said: "Hey, fellows! Congress said I can only preside over a trial of illegal combatants.  You fellows (battalions of government lawyers and clerks) have not declared this kid to be one of those so I cannot conduct a trial.  Go back to yourt offices, get your paperwork in order - you've got supercomputers, guys; how fricking hard can it be to amend a stack of documents? - then come back with the forms filled in neatly and correctly and we'll have ourselves a trial."

It also looks to me like the prosecutors stamped their little feet, held their little breath and then said: "We don't wanna!  We don't hafta!  We're the good guys an' god said it's OK to p!ss on the paperwork."

OK.  Tell me what I've missed.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on July 07, 2007, 11:14:02
nothing....I think that is as close as it comes to the truth..
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: milnews.ca on September 19, 2007, 16:37:07
The latest from Canada's Liberal leader -- MSM coverage at European Commission media site (http://tinyurl.com/2ofymu) (an amazing resource, esp. for int'l news, accessible free online) and Google News search "Dion + Khadr" (http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=Dion%2BKhadr&ie=UTF-8&scoring=n)....

Harper Must Defend Rights of All Canadians Citizens: Dion
Liberal Party of Canada news release (http://www.liberal.ca/story_13145_e.aspx), 19 Sept 07

TORONTO - Prime Minister Stephen Harper must demand the United States government remove Omar Khadr from the Guantanamo Bay detention facility to ensure his rights as a Canadian citizen are protected, Liberal Opposition Leader Stéphane Dion said today.

"Canada is alone among Western nations in not having secured the release from Guantanamo of one of its nationals. Prime Minister Harper must finally ensure Mr. Khadr receives the same consular support that any other Canadian - detainee or not - would receive," said Mr. Dion.

Mr. Dion made his comments following a meeting with the lawyers who have been appointed for Mr. Khadr in the American military commission process. Despite widespread condemnation of the detention centre, Omar Khadr remains the only Western citizen still detained at Guantanamo, the controversial American military prison in Cuba where people suspected of being al-Qaeda and Taliban operatives are held.

Mr. Khadr has been held in Guantanamo Bay since November 2002. In recent months, it has become increasingly clear that serious questions exist about the legality of the process under which he is to be tried. Despite this mounting evidence, the Conservative government has remained virtually silent.

"It is time for Canada to intervene, as so many other countries have done, to ensure that the charges against its citizen are dealt with, that he is tried in a legitimate court and that he receives due process," said Mr. Dion.

Mr. Dion repeated his call made prior to the Security and Prosperity Partnership Summit in Montebello, Quebec, in August, that if the US is unwilling to provide these assurances, the Conservative government should demand Mr. Khadr's repatriation to Canada where he can be dealt with by our justice system, as has been the case with detainees from Australia, the United Kingdom and France.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: COBRA-6 on September 19, 2007, 16:54:35
attempting to deflect attention away from his failure in the Quebec by-elections and as leader of the Liberal party in general...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: KevinB on September 19, 2007, 16:58:49
Well I guess we could give the Americans Dion and try Kadhr up here -- but I think the Americans would not fall for it...

 Seriously Kadhr murdered an American SF Medic, and Dion cares about him?  WTF!
I for one am upset the Americans have not executed him which is what he truly deserves, if we still had the death penatly in Canada I'd be all for droping him in Canada.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on September 19, 2007, 16:59:36
attempting to deflect attention away from his failure in the Quebec by-elections and as leader of the Liberal party in general...

That, and all he'll get here in Canada is handing out Jelly Beans in Sunnydale, because he's so deprived..........now where is that sarcasm icon?

At least in  the states, life is life....and the other inmates will look forward to him arriving  :)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Fishbone Jones on September 19, 2007, 18:09:11
Wasn't he in Gitmo when the lieberals were in power. I don't remember them yelling, or trying, about bringing him home.

Lie, Liebel, Liberal
The evolution of corrupt government.

At any rate, he deserves to rot there. We already have the rest of his parasite family feeding at the trough of the public taxpayer, with no return to the nation.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Cdn Blackshirt on September 19, 2007, 18:25:21
What I'd love to see is him come back to Canada, face a military trial for treason, and then we shoot him.

I'm sick and tired of all this PC nonsense.  It's time to send a real clear message....



Matthew. 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on September 19, 2007, 23:35:28
While I am not thrilled at the prospect of seeing him returned to Canada for trial OR detention, I do pelieve that, if the US intends to try him, they should get the proverbial thumb out and get on with it.

From my perspective, it makes no sense for it to have taken so long to bring him to trial.... No?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on September 20, 2007, 00:21:05
Maybe they just threw away the key, ha!

If he rots in Cuba for 5 more years, does not bother me a bit, after all  he is behind bars, and is not in our country.

As far as I am concerned the only rights he has are  .22 short, long, or long rifle.


Wes
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hunteroffortune on September 20, 2007, 00:49:01
How can this help Dion? Or should I say what groups helped get Dion elected? Two MP's brought an ethnic contingent over to Dion during the leadership race, now, you have to ask yourself, what does Dion owe them? Why has he changed the Liberal position on the Afghan mission? Why did he block the bill that would have kept security certificates? Who or what group is behind Dion?

Bad move by Dion just after his parties lost in Outremont, so why did Dion not only meet with the lawyers, but hold a press conference?

Beats me, maybe someone else has the answer.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hunteroffortune on September 20, 2007, 01:25:15
While I am not thrilled at the prospect of seeing him returned to Canada for trial OR detention, I do pelieve that, if the US intends to try him, they should get the proverbial thumb out and get on with it.

From my perspective, it makes no sense for it to have taken so long to bring him to trial.... No?

NO! In WWII how many POW's were granted a trial? Were they not just held until the war ended, then released? He is a traitor to Canada, why would we want him back? It's bad enough that we have his whole family here, when they have publically told us that they hate our culture, our country, and especially they just hate us. They are terrorists, plain and simple. For Dion to get involved, just after going down in flames in the by elections, is shear stupidity.

Dion is listening to some radical groups that got him elected, he never should have made this an issue. It stinks.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on September 20, 2007, 08:59:34
NO! In WWII how many POW's were granted a trial? Were they not just held until the war ended, then released? He is a traitor to Canada, why would we want him back? It's bad enough that we have his whole family here, when they have publically told us that they hate our culture, our country, and especially they just hate us. They are terrorists, plain and simple. For Dion to get involved, just after going down in flames in the by elections, is shear stupidity.

Dion is listening to some radical groups that got him elected, he never should have made this an issue. It stinks.

Hunter... Khadr is not classified as a POW nor is he granted the usual rights of a POW.  The US has stated that he is in Guantanamo to stand trial & has made a big show of starting up a couple of times... only for it to peter out & have him led back to his cell.

The US has laid or alleged that as a civilian, he killed or was responsible for the death of a US Soldier.

They should make up their minds, conduct the trial if that is their intention, arrive at a decision and, if appropriate, mete out a sentence.
Then, let the appeals (if any) begin.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: KevinB on September 20, 2007, 09:15:34
The US has laid or alleged that as a civilian, he killed or was responsible for the death of a US Soldier.
I dont think anyone disputes that is a fact that he threw a grenade that kiled a 18D and inured another of the ODA.

  They have eyewitness (the team that captured him) and his family is rather proud of it.

The fact the gov't let him (and his family) keep their citizenship when they overtly treasonous make me ill.  I wish someone would hurry up and reunite the family with the dad  :threat:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: BulletMagnet on September 20, 2007, 09:25:47
I personally am torn on this issue. I see nothing wrong with leaving him in his cell to rot until such time as the US finds the time to give him his day in court then find him guilty and hand out punishment. However as a person who in my mind defends what Canada stands for I find it almost wrong that he at this point has not been given his day in court as is his right.

Though after killing an 18D and committing treason to what rights if any is he truly entailed?

I agree with I6 though why is his family allowed to stay in this country, the fact that they do makes me sick as well!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on September 20, 2007, 09:34:42
I agree the US should get off the pot and convict him....period

As to Canada's involvement, we have none, other than periphery.....he was a Canadian citizen who traveled to another country(s), engaged in armed conflict, was captured,.......next!!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: BulletMagnet on September 20, 2007, 09:37:08
Sadly Gap by rights he should be entitled to Consular service as a Canadian Citizen. However seeing as by act he has committed treason should that right be suspended?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: NL_engineer on September 20, 2007, 10:06:06
As long as he is locked up in Gitmo, we don't have to flip the bill; at least that would be understood by the accountants in government  ;D
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on September 20, 2007, 10:16:30
I think it is idiotic for this to persist / continue.
American, Australian & Brit illigal combatants have been repatriated, tried & dealt with.
I have no objection to having him serve 100 years for his deeds, once he has been found guilty. 
The US is welcome to keep him - just wish they'd get on with it and turn the page.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Exarecr on September 20, 2007, 11:23:55
  Is not his brother zooming around on a nifty powered wheel chair after sustaining battle injuries against American Forces in Afghanistan. Anyway, this little murdering yahoo deserves to spend 25 years awaiting trial. Not costing us a penny plus we get the added bonus of seeing Dion put his rather large foot in his mouth everytime he stands up for Khadr, the poster boy for everything wrong with our immigration system.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 20, 2007, 13:02:59
I think it is idiotic for this to persist / continue.
American, Australian & Brit illigal combatants have been repatriated, tried & dealt with.
I have no objection to having him serve 100 years for his deeds, once he has been found guilty. 
The US is welcome to keep him - just wish they'd get on with it and turn the page.

I agree.

The US administration appears to have buggered up the enemy combatant thing beyond belief. Their own courts have said that they need to revise their rules but the administration seems hell bent on violating its own laws. Hubris might be the right word, perhaps arrogance, maybe just plain, old stupidity.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on September 20, 2007, 13:07:32
Was it not Chretien that got old man Kadar out of custody, and now Dion, another Liberal, is standing up for his son....this political party needs to decide just where they fit into the scheme of things.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 20, 2007, 13:15:21
Was it not Chretien that got old man Kadar out of custody, and now Dion, another Liberal, is standing up for his son....this political party needs to decide just where they fit into the scheme of things.

Yes. Jean Chrétien was trolling for ethnic votes – it was bad policy but good politics. In Canada politics almost always trumps policy, no matter which parties are involved.

Khadr, unfortunately, is a Canadian citizen who is being detained, possibly against US law, by the US government. He, being a citizen, has a right to some levels of support or protection from his own government. If we do not fight for the rights of the worst of our fellow citizens then we devalue the rights of the rest, including the best.

Two wrongs do not make a right. Chrétien was wrong when he intervened on behalf of Khadr père, he was wrong when he failed to intervene on behalf of Khadr fils; ditto Paul Martin and Stephen Harper.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on September 20, 2007, 13:50:13
+1 Ed
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: KevinB on September 21, 2007, 10:48:41
Khadr was engaged as an illegal combatant pursuant to the Rules of Land Warfare.

   He engage in those activties against a military force which we where part of, against one of our allies, and killed an American serviceman.
Rather than bemoan the rights that Khadr invalidated the minute he comitted treason - maybe we should look to the family of the dead SF Medic.

If I could get into Gitmo - I'd save you a lot of trouble and I'd put my 1911 against his head and shoot him dead.
   No fuss no muss and not a damn bit of concern about it either.





Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on September 21, 2007, 10:58:27
Now his lawyer is getting involved in it

American military lawyer rips Canadian hypocrisy on Omar Khadr
 Article Link (http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5gb--Jf-yOVV66oWG6m-I0_H6_nFw)

OTTAWA - Canada has been an international leader on the plight of child soldiers but is now showing "reckless indifference" to one of its own, the American military lawyer for Omar Khadr said Thursday.

In a speech to law students at the University of Ottawa, Lt.-Cmdr. William Kuebler eviscerated the U.S. military commissions set up to try prisoners of the Afghan conflict. "Omar Khadr is facing a show trial in front of a kangaroo court," said Kuebler, dressed in his blue U.S. officer's uniform

But he spared Canadian governments past and present none of his outrage for refusing any effort to bring Khadr, a Canadian citizen, back to Canada for trial.

Kuebler was appointed by the U.S. military to represent Khadr, a 15-year-old when he was accused of killing an American special forces officer in Afghanistan in 2002. He faces a range of charges, including murder and aiding the enemy, for allegedly throwing a grenade during a firefight.

Khadr, who turned 21 this week, is believed to be the last detainee from a Western nation still being held in Guantanamo, the U.S. prisoner camp on Cuba's southern peninsula.

Countries including Australia, Denmark, France, Germany and Spain have secured the release of their citizens, while Britain has even won the freedom of non-citizen permanent residents.

Khadr's age makes his case doubly perplexing, said Kuebler.

"Every civilized legal system in the world recognizes the distinction between adults and children for purposes of criminal prosecution and punishment," he said. "Not the military commissions. One size fits all."

Evidence before a U.S. civil court suggested Khadr was as young as 10 when his father, known al Qaida operative Ahmad Khadr, recruited and indoctrinated him to the cause, said Kuebler.
More on link
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: MCG on September 21, 2007, 11:48:58
Though after killing an 18D and committing treason to what rights if any is he truly entailed?
Maybe to be charged in a Canadian court with treason?  Even do it in his absence.  If he is found guilty we can wash our hands of him (I'm sure the Americans would be happy to keep him for the duration of any detention he might get from a Canadian court).
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Boxkicker on September 21, 2007, 16:49:56

The fact the gov't let him (and his family) keep their citizenship when they overtly treasonous make me ill.  I wish someone would hurry up and reunite the family with the dad  :threat:

  To bad the media wont look at him and ask that if why these things were all good for a Liberal government. Why are they not good for a conservative government.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on September 25, 2007, 14:34:48
Appeals Court Rules Military Judge Has Jurisdiction Authority in Gitmo Case
By Sgt. Sara Wood, USA American Forces Press Service WASHINGTON, Sept. 25, 2007
 Article Link (http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=47569)

A military appeals court ruled yesterday that a military trial judge has the authority to determine jurisdiction in a military commission, a ruling that paves the way for proceedings to continue against suspected terrorists at U.S. Naval Station Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
The Court of Military Commission Review made the ruling in response to an appeal filed by the prosecution in the case of Canadian detainee Omar Khadr, who was charged in April with murder, support to terrorism and conspiracy under the Military Commissions Act of 2006. On June 4, the military trial judge in Khadr’s case dismissed the charges against Khadr, ruling that the trial court did not have jurisdiction to hear the case.

This ruling was based on the fact that Khadr was officially classified as an “enemy combatant” in an administrative hearing at Guantanamo, and the Military Commissions Act requires detainees to be classified as “alien unlawful enemy combatants” before they can be tried by a commission. At the time, the judge also ruled that it wasn’t the military commission’s role to determine jurisdiction in these cases, even if the prosecution could present evidence showing the accused was an unlawful enemy combatant.

On June 8, the government filed a motion for reconsideration, which the trial judge denied on June 29. So, on July 4, the prosecution filed an appeal with the Court of Military Commission Review challenging the judge’s dismissal of the case.

Air Force Brig. Gen. Thomas W. Hartmann, the legal advisor to the Office of Military Commissions Convening Authority, said yesterday’s ruling gives the military judge authority to ascertain whether jurisdiction exists to try Khadr.

“Both the prosecution and defense have been vigorously preparing for this day, whatever the outcome,” Hartmann said. “We have a ruling from the (Court of Military Commissions Review) that tells us how the military judge can determine jurisdiction. Now it is time to move forward.”

Hartmann said he expects the prosecution to quickly begin forwarding cases to the convening authority for review. The convening authority will determine whether there is probable cause to send these cases to trial.
More on link
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Blackadder1916 on September 25, 2007, 18:09:22
Appeal court gives Pentagon green light to try Khadr (http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=d55cf692-3a96-4d69-8ace-08257cc738d3)
Canadian's lawyer attacks legal 'gymnastics' after ruling allows terrorism case to proceed
 
Sheldon Alberts The Ottawa Citizen Tuesday, September 25, 2007

WASHINGTON - A U.S. military appeals court dealt Canadian Omar Khadr a major legal setback yesterday, overturning a decision to throw out murder and terrorism charges against the alleged al-Qaeda operative.

The decision by the U.S. Court of Military Commission Review means the Pentagon once again has the green light to put the 21-year-old on trial before a war crimes tribunal at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

"We welcome the court's decision and will proceed in the most expeditious manner to get military commission cases to trial," Pentagon spokesman Jeffrey Gordon said last night.

"The timeline is up to the judge. He decides when we will be back in the courtroom."

The case was thrown into legal limbo last June when army Col. Peter Brownback ruled the Bush administration's war crimes tribunals lacked jurisdiction to try Mr. Khadr because the U.S. government had made no determination whether the Canadian was an "unlawful enemy combatant." The ruling left open the possibility that Mr. Khadr was legally engaged in battle with American troops.

He is accused of killing an army medic in a battle between U.S. troops and al-Qaeda fighters in Afghanistan in the summer of 2002 when he was 15.

In its ruling against Mr. Khadr yesterday, the military appeals court agreed there was a significant distinction between a detainee's status as a lawful or unlawful enemy combatant.

But it found that Col. Brownback erred by refusing to hear evidence that Pentagon lawyers said would prove Mr. Khadr was  an unlawful combatant at the time of his capture.


Dennis Edney, one of two Canadian lawyers representing Mr. Khadr before the tribunals, said the decision confirmed his view that the Pentagon has stacked the legal deck against his client.

"It astounds me that this (U.S.) administration goes to such gymnastics to avoid giving this young man due process in an ordinary court of law with proper rules of evidence," Mr. Edney said last night.

He said he is worried the Pentagon will now rush Mr. Khadr to trial without giving his defence team proper time to prepare an appeal.

Mr. Khadr's lawyers have questioned the legitimacy of the appeals court. The three-person court was only assembled after the charges against Mr. Khadr were thrown out in June.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on November 19, 2007, 15:30:30
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/277808

CBS showing of Khadr tape 'outrageous': Lawyer 
Nov 19, 2007 01:13 PM
THE CANADIAN PRESS

The lawyer of detained Canadian terror suspect Omar Khadr says it's outrageous that CBS News has broadcast a tape of his client allegedly building explosives.
Dennis Edney says that a U.S. judge previously ruled that the video couldn't be used as evidence in court.

Edney believes the American government leaked the tape to 60 Minutes in a bid to sidestep that decision.
The news program aired the tape last night.

U.S. authorities allege that Toronto-born Khadr killed an American medic in July 2002 after he threw a grenade in eastern Afghanistan.
The 21-year-old, who was charged with murder two years ago, is being held at the American naval base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Big Foot on November 19, 2007, 15:43:51
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/16/60minutes/main3516048.shtml

Link to the 60 Minutes article, including video, about Omar Khadr.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: KevinB on November 19, 2007, 15:47:50
I've got something for him...

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv193%2FEvilKev%2FAmmunition%2FIraq554.jpg&hash=bc837d28ce4e65caecaa11225094c51f)

Going about 2750fps...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: riggermade on November 19, 2007, 15:51:45
Personally I wished that Canada would revoke citizenship for the whole family as they obviousely see no problem with supporting terroism and hanging would be too quick for Omar in my opinion.

If a family openly supports these terror organizations then get rid of them
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Greymatters on November 19, 2007, 17:21:55
If only it was that easy!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Yrys on March 05, 2008, 00:11:52
Khadr lawyers accuse Cheney office of video leak (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080304/cheney_tape_080304/20080304?hub=World)

Quote
Defence lawyers for Canadian terror suspect Omar Khadr are investigating whether a video released to the media may have been leaked by the office
 of U.S. Vice-President Dick Cheney. The video, broadcast last November on 60 Minutes, appears to show Khadr building a roadside bomb in Afghanistan.

Lt.-Cmdr. William Kuebler said his recent court filing cites Col. Morris Davis, the former chief proscutor of the military commission that will be trying Khadr in
Guantanamo Bay, as stating that he believes the video came from Cheney's office. That opinion was based on conversations Davis had with 60 Minutes producers,
Kuebler said. The producers of the show have refused to officially reveal how the video was obtained.

"Based on his claim or his belief, we're going to conduct an inquiry into whether or not that's true," Kuebler told CTV's Canada AM. "There's really nobody closer
to the process over the last couple of years to the process than Col. Davis. He thinks it's possible or likely this tape came from the vice-president's office, so that's
 very significant." If the defence can prove that the video was in fact leaked by someone in Cheney's office, it would represent a "clear violation of the protective
orders that are in place," he said. "They prohibit me from discussing just about anything included in the government's case against my client, so if the government
isn't abiding by its own rules, I think that's a clear violation of those orders," Kuebler said.

Davis resigned from his post as chief prosecutor last October, claiming political interference was keeping him from doing his job properly.

Omar Khadr faces a trial on charges that include murder, related to a 2002 firefight in Afghanistan that left a U.S. soldier dead.

Kuebler said the military prosecutors "desperately" wanted to play the video before the media last November when the case was before the court in Guantanamo Bay.
 "They didn't get the chance to do it, and low and behold it ends up on 60 Minutes a couple of weeks later," he said, adding that prosecutors have considered the video
the "smoking gun" in their case against Khadr. However, Kuebler dismissed the importance of the leaked footage. "I think the tape, at worst, if in fact it is what the
government says it is, shows that Omar Khadr was exploited and used as a child soldier by much older people in Afghanistan, which is what we've always said," Kuebler said.

Khadr's trial is expected to begin later this year. He could face a possible life sentence if convicted.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: BernDawg on March 20, 2008, 12:52:27
Something new in the MSM.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/v5/content/pdf/RedactedKhadrAffidavit_22Feb2008.pdf   :'(

I really like how he states that he just wants to return to his country.  Send the little piece of crap back to Iraq then!  And another thing that pisses me off is the papers continually showing the photo of him when he was 15 not the current image of the bearded hard-line Muslim.  Whether he threw the grenade or not he was there and he was engaged in armed conflict against an ally of ours. Let him rot.  I red the entire PDF and if he's telling the truth (LOL) he got what he deserves.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: axeman on March 20, 2008, 13:19:38
You know it'sweird that when they behead some one with a machete its glorious and in the name of god . When they strapa a semtex vest on and kill themselves a few soldiers  and some innicont by standers its for the greater good . But when they get captured and have to physically pay for the crime . ie getting shot while being captured after killing some one  it becomes al contrary to the goodness that i belive in .. well i belive in capital punishment and now this is fair punishment for me onecaught bloddy handed and with an entire family trying to kill soldiers well kick em out of the country . So you want to fight ,wear your uniform proudly  and dont try to claim your a civilian when  you get caught .
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on March 20, 2008, 13:27:02
Was reading in the MsM this morning - interesting personal diary of the Capt that led the assault on the compound where Khadr was captured.... within the press & MsM, the US Military will have tremendous difficulty prosecuting this case.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hamish Seggie on March 20, 2008, 13:32:14
We are dealing with a different mindset here.
In the eyes of committed terrorists, there are NO innocent bystanders. In the eyes of Al-Qaeda, we are ALL legtitimate targets, including our children. The will stop at nothing to wipe us out, adn if theat means killing babies they will.
Of course they will play on our sensibilities when captured, crying human rights, poor treatment and crying for my favorite organization, Amnesty International. AI has never met a terrorist they didn't like.

Send this little so and so back.....and his family too.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: TCBF on March 22, 2008, 01:34:20
- This is what happens when you don't treat EVERYONE as a POW.  POWs get to go home when the war is over - not before.  So, when will the war end?  Good question, but they can wait until it is.  But imagine the lack of hassle if the USA was not cycling suspects through Gitmo then back to Iraq then back to Gitmo after they are caught - again. 

- Combat is messy, but coincidences are often remarkable.  A Brit para once wrote that the British, upon discovery that some of their Argentine POWs were actually Hispanic American mercenaries, alledgedly separated the Americans from the other POWs then  (my phrasing follows) discovered that the mercenaries had all been killed in action (my phrasing ends). 

- Thus preventing a regretable international incident.  The Brits display a certain maturity in these matters that some other nations do not.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: X-mo-1979 on March 22, 2008, 02:15:54
I think we need open dialog with the hardline Muslims in this country.Maybe give them their own province.


Having children opened my eyes to many things.And when are we as Canadians going to do something about it?When were the minority?Good luck then.Islamic religious schools in Scarborough...

We will leave a Country to our children that WE HAVE MADE.


Also on the little Khadr kid.Everytime I hear about the poor little 15 yr old on the news they show the poor little guy's school picture smiling.How about showing the picture of him hooking land mines up as IED's?Or the video still with him and his cute little AK.

Canadians will walk around Parliament to protect these peoples rights,yet when their put into OUR communities no one protests?Why do we let people like this feel at home?Maybe we should start airing be-headings on CTV evening news.As most Canadians have their head so far up their *** they have never sat and watched a man choke out his last few breaths.His only crime being driving a humanitarian truck in an Islamic country full of terrorist.

Maybe next time some one is petitioning on Parliament we can bring up some mothers of the soldiers killed by Khadr.

This subject vexes me very much.Almost as much as the average"I don't care till it's too late"Canadians.

And now that my neck vein is pumping I have to laugh.....

the spell check tries to change Khadr to Jihad.....coincidence>?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: sgf on March 22, 2008, 08:50:11
I think we need open dialog with the hardline Muslims in this country.Maybe give them their own province.


Having children opened my eyes to many things.And when are we as Canadians going to do something about it?When were the minority?Good luck then.Islamic religious schools in Scarborough...

We will leave a Country to our children that WE HAVE MADE.


Also on the little Khadr kid.Everytime I hear about the poor little 15 yr old on the news they show the poor little guy's school picture smiling.How about showing the picture of him hooking land mines up as IED's?Or the video still with him and his cute little AK.

Canadians will walk around Parliament to protect these peoples rights,yet when their put into OUR communities no one protests?Why do we let people like this feel at home?Maybe we should start airing be-headings on CTV evening news.As most Canadians have their head so far up their *** they have never sat and watched a man choke out his last few breaths.His only crime being driving a humanitarian truck in an Islamic country full of terrorist.

Maybe next time some one is petitioning on Parliament we can bring up some mothers of the soldiers killed by Khadr.

This subject vexes me very much.Almost as much as the average"I don't care till it's too late"Canadians.

And now that my neck vein is pumping I have to laugh.....

the spell check tries to change Khadr to Jihad.....coincidence>?

Wow.. people like these?? what particular people are you talking about? Thats a bit of a generalization isnt it? Other religions have their particular churches, so why not Muslims?

Up to last night, the War Measures Act has not been invoked, so I hardly think Canada needs saving from any group
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: X-mo-1979 on March 22, 2008, 09:54:24
Wow.. people like these?? what particular people are you talking about? Thats a bit of a generalization isnt it? Other religions have their particular churches, so why not Muslims?

Up to last night, the War Measures Act has not been invoked, so I hardly think Canada needs saving from any group

 hardline Muslims in this country.

It's in the first sentence.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: sgf on March 22, 2008, 11:43:04
hardline Muslims in this country.

It's in the first sentence.

what hardline Muslims and how do you tell the diffrence between a hardline and a regular Muslim Canadian in
Canada? Have their been any reports about their activities against this country, say in the last two years?

Interesting article that has a lot to say about Omar Khadr, especially the part about evidence against Omar

Quote
Lately, it has dawned on Canadians that the United States may well have lied about its evidence against Mr. Khadr. Far from having proof that only he could have thrown the grenade that killed their soldier, the U.S. appears to have hidden the truth: that the teenage Canadian was in the company of an adult al-Qaeda fighter and was himself unarmed, on his knees and facing away from battle when a U.S. soldier shot him twice — in the back.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080320.wcoessay0322/BNStory/specialComment/home?cid=al_gam_mostview (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080320.wcoessay0322/BNStory/specialComment/home?cid=al_gam_mostview)

another part of the article

Quote
The irony has never really penetrated Canadians' consciousness. Canada, the country of the liberal Youth Criminal Justice Act, is the only Western nation to give the United States carte blanche with one of its nationals at Guantanamo. Britain, Australia, Sweden and Germany fought to repatriate their nationals — adults, all of them. And Canada let a juvenile languish.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: the 48th regulator on March 22, 2008, 11:48:08
what hardline Muslims and how do you tell the diffrence between a hardline and a regular Muslim Canadian in
Canada? Have their been any reports about their activities against this country, say in the last two years?

Since this thread is thread is about the Khadr crowd, would that be the type he is talking about?  Ones that live in a free country like Canada, and support monsters like Binladen.

Does it have to be explained any simpler than that?

dileas

tess
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: X-mo-1979 on March 22, 2008, 11:49:21
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=de3f8e90-982a-47af-8e5e-a1366fd5d6cc

Hows that for you?2006 good enough?Or is that too passe for you?

What is the difference between hardline Muslims and normal praticing Muslims?

Oh stuff like going to Afghanistan to fight,working here in Canada and sending money to terrorist groups disguised as humanitarian fund's.Running training camps for terrorist north of Toronto.Bringing in extremest Imam's to speak to your congregation from Saudi Arabia and England....

Do you need more examples or can you surf the net and watch the media yourself>?

http://www.csis-scrs.gc.ca/en/priorities/terrorism.asp
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: MCG on March 22, 2008, 11:55:25
sgf,
Slippery slope is not a logical argument, so you might want another angle if that is your intent.  You know that people in this thread are referring specifically to individuals who it has been determined are most likely actively supporting terrorist (or anti-coalition) activities.  These individual still deserve their due process (which some have advocated against), so maybe you want to set your aim there.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: NL_engineer on March 22, 2008, 12:09:55
what hardline Muslims and how do you tell the diffrence between a hardline and a regular Muslim Canadian in
Canada? Have their been any reports about their activities against this country, say in the last two years?

The arrests outside Toronto in Sept 06, thats the first one that comes to mind

I think we need open dialog with the hardline Muslims in this country.Maybe give them their own province.


Having children opened my eyes to many things.And when are we as Canadians going to do something about it?When were the minority?Good luck then.Islamic religious schools in Scarborough...

We will leave a Country to our children that WE HAVE MADE.


Also on the little Khadr kid.Everytime I hear about the poor little 15 yr old on the news they show the poor little guy's school picture smiling.How about showing the picture of him hooking land mines up as IED's?Or the video still with him and his cute little AK.

Canadians will walk around Parliament to protect these peoples rights,yet when their put into OUR communities no one protests?Why do we let people like this feel at home?Maybe we should start airing be-headings on CTV evening news.As most Canadians have their head so far up their *** they have never sat and watched a man choke out his last few breaths.His only crime being driving a humanitarian truck in an Islamic country full of terrorist.

Maybe next time some one is petitioning on Parliament we can bring up some mothers of the soldiers killed by Khadr.

This subject vexes me very much.Almost as much as the average"I don't care till it's too late"Canadians.

And now that my neck vein is pumping I have to laugh.....

the spell check tries to change Khadr to Jihad.....coincidence>?


1+

One of the reasons we should take the US approch (An American first, or get the F*** out).  You don't see to many people using the US as a country of convenience

Well my personal views are that they should be treated as they treat others (ie. like the people they capture beheaded, and left to rot in a ditch).  But thats just my personal views, that I am entitled to as a Canadian Citizen  :salute: :cdn:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: sgf on March 22, 2008, 17:38:14
I read the quote about the arrests, but what about convictions? How long are the sentences these people have received?

 I also beg to differ about the States being used as a country of convenience, seems they have their own issues with illegal immigrants who are cross the Mexican border at will.

 I dont doubt that there are many muslims that raise money and sent home, just like.. hmm lets see.. maybe irish immigrants who raised money for the IRA but I didnt hear a large outcry over that.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: the 48th regulator on March 22, 2008, 17:40:34
I dont doubt that there are many muslims that raise money and sent home, just like.. hmm lets see.. maybe irish immigrants who raised money for the IRA but I didnt hear a large outcry over that.

I don't think the site was up and running at the time of the Irish Troubles, however I stand to be corrected....

Terrorists are terrorists, regardless what t-shirt they wear sgf.

Try as you might, you can't pidgeon hole anywone for being anti-muslim,

Fair effort though.

dileas

tess
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: ArmyVern on March 22, 2008, 17:59:18
I dont doubt that there are many muslims that raise money and sent home, just like.. hmm lets see.. maybe irish immigrants who raised money for the IRA but I didnt hear a large outcry over that.

One can find whatever they wish on the internet. Even old newspaper articles (where, during the IRA heyday -- the outcry occured) from the 70s/80s/90s decrying the funding of the IRA by immigrants & business fronts in North America. You just need to search for them, instead of pretending that "outcry" didn't exists simply because the "outcry" didn't occur during the internet era.

STOP YOUR TROLLING NOW.

Last warning.

ArmyVern
The Milnet.ca Staff
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: X-mo-1979 on March 24, 2008, 19:51:12
I don't doubt that there are many Muslims that raise money and sent home, just like.. hmm lets see.. maybe Irish immigrants who raised money for the IRA but I didn't hear a large outcry over that.

No?Maybe type "IRA Canada" into Google.Here is a good comparison actually.

Khadr family:
-mother quoted saying "We are an Al Qaeda family."

-Father arrest by Pakistani authorities in 1995 for siphoning off HCI funds to pay for an Al Qaeda terrorist operation

-Wife Maha Elsamnah took her then 14-year-old son Omar from Canada to Pakistan in 2001 and enrolled him for Al Qaeda training.

-Daughter Zaynab, 23, was engaged to one terrorist and married, with Osama bin Laden himself present at the nuptials, a Qaeda member in 1999. Zaynab endorses the 9/11 atrocities and hopes her infant daughter will die fighting Americans.
-
Son Abdullah, 22, is a Qaeda fugitive constantly on the move to elude capture. Canadian intelligence states he ran a Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan during the Taliban period, something Abdullah denies.

-Son Omar, 17, stands accused of hurling a grenade in July 2002, killing an American medic in Afghanistan. Omar lost sight in one eye in the fighting and is now a U.S. detainee in Guantánamo.

-Son Abdul Karim, 14, half-paralyzed by wounds sustained in the October 2003 shoot-out that left his father dead, is presently prisoner in a Pakistani hospital.

SO what does Canada do?
-On April 9, 2004, (brother)Khadr and his mother returned to Canada, flying from Islamabad, Pakistan, to Toronto.

Yet if you look here:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/05/26/ira-pei.html

Former IRA member turned back at the border
Last Updated: Friday, May 26, 2006 | 11:38 PM ET
CBC News
A former member of the Irish Republican Army was sent back to Ireland this week while en route to Fort Augustus, P.E.I., for Irish heritage celebrations.
Pat Treanor, the mayor of County Monaghan in Ireland, had been to Canada twice in the past year. But when he flew into St. John's on Wednesday, border security officials asked him whether he had a record.
He told them he was convicted once — for being a member of the IRA. He was refused admittance to Canada and sent back home.
"I'm disappointed and I would like to be part of the celebrations on Prince Edward Island," he told CBC News in an interview from his hometown.
But he expects he'll get this travel problem straightened out. "I do believe it was just some kind of a ****-up at the airport, seeing that I got in twice before. I will be meeting with the Canadian ambassador and I'm fairly confident we'll resolve whatever difficulties there are there."
The IRA officially ended its armed struggle against British rule in July 2005.
Treanor said he was a member for a few years in the 1970s, but that he's never committed any crime. He remains a member of Sinn Fein, the IRA's political wing.
The Canada Border Services Agency won't talk about the case. But spokeswoman Jennifer Morrison said people can be turned away for a number of reasons, such as having a criminal record or belonging to a terrorist group.
Treanor was travelling with three other members of the Monaghan county council, who were able to continue on to Fort Augustus.

So SGF yes Canada also takes a hard (I say HARDER)stance on other terrorist.The Khadr mother who said "We are an Al Qaeda family" gets to live here....yet an ex IRA terrorist is turned away.So yet another hole in your poorly argued,poorly researched, and trolling point of view.


P.S Can you please start using spell check,as it takes longer for other members to correct your work than their own when quoting you.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: MCG on March 24, 2008, 21:11:14
I dont doubt that there are many muslims that raise money and sent home, just like.. hmm lets see.. maybe irish immigrants who raised money for the IRA but I didnt hear a large outcry over that.
Ignoring the accuracy or inaccuracy of your statement, this is a wholly irrelevant argument.  The Canadian response to IRA funding in Canada neither validates nor invalidates arguments about what we should be doing today in response to terrorist supporters in Canada.  Appeal to hypocrisy is not a logical argument.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Target Up on March 24, 2008, 21:16:09
I dunno, I've never made any secret here of my feelings on that topic.  try this:

Re: Flap over UK Plan to Train Local Militia
« Reply #4 on: 05-02-2008, 14:12:28 »
   Reply with quoteQuote
Just going to hit the nest with a stick here.  The "Global War On Terrorism" is a misnomer.  If it were indeed a global effort, the Brits would have had a free hand to invade the Republic of Ireland and hunt down the IRA.  "We will root out terrorists and destroy them wherever they are, well, at least the brown ones that don't get funding from half the population of Boston and New York, anyway."


Nomex skiddies on, fire away.


I dont doubt that there are many muslims that raise money and sent home, just like.. hmm lets see.. maybe irish immigrants who raised money for the IRA but I didnt hear a large outcry over that.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: sgf on March 25, 2008, 18:28:40
There was an interview with Sean Fine today in the Globe and Mail, which had a lot of interesting questions and answers going back and forth..

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080320.wlivekhadr0325/BNStory/specialComment/home (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080320.wlivekhadr0325/BNStory/specialComment/home)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: X-mo-1979 on March 25, 2008, 19:43:07
That article is along your view point for sure.
However what I don't understand with his view is he keeps repeating the poor kid is 15 years old and don't deserve the punishment.

Yet as he is held by Americans and committed the act/acts on American troops,should he not be treated as any other 15 year old American?

Here's an example of a 14 yr old who killed his teacher.What did that land him?28 years adult prison.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/LAW/07/27/brazill.sentencing/

So Khadr commits terrorism,kill's soldier and works at targeting coalition troops....and guys like this and yourself SGF want to bring them home?

We have young guys joining the Reserves at 16...so does this mean their not responsible for their actions?

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: sgf on March 25, 2008, 20:15:47
It hasnt been proven that he has killed anyone yet. I havent said that he should return to Canada so dont attempt to put words in my mouth. I am not sure what exactly should happen to him but I am waiting until after the trial and see what is that outcome. I am just putting forth another idea to the case, thats all.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Technoviking on March 26, 2008, 09:29:41
It hasnt been proven that he has killed anyone yet.
Agreed.  He was, however, there, in a combat zone, with persons fighting against our allies.  IMHO, if/when he returns to Canada, he should face treason charges.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: George Wallace on March 26, 2008, 09:35:29
Is it only me, or is anyone else upset that the media have down played this over the past year or two.  It wasn't just a soldier that was killed; it was a Medic going to the aid of another wounded soldier.  To me that carries a lot more weight than "a soldier".
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: MCG on March 26, 2008, 18:06:31
Agreed.  He was, however, there, in a combat zone, with persons fighting against our allies.  IMHO, if/when he returns to Canada, he should face treason charges.
I agree whole heartedly.  You don't go join the other side in a war against your home nation & its allies, and if you do then expect the consequences.

It wasn't just a soldier that was killed; it was a Medic going to the aid of another wounded soldier.  To me that carries a lot more weight than "a soldier".
Was he wearing the red cross?  It makes a difference legally if the medic was visibly identifiable in his role or not.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: TCBF on March 26, 2008, 19:21:36
I agree whole heartedly.  You don't go join the other side in a war against your home nation & its allies, and if you do then expect the consequences.
Was he wearing the red cross?  It makes a difference legally if the medic was visibly identifiable in his role or not.

1. What if he is a dual national?  What is the situation then if both your nations are fighting each other and you pick one? This ain't just about Khadr now, how many millions of Canadian 'duals' would fight for old country against Canada like the "Kamloops Kid" did in WW2? The answer may be disturbing.

2.  If you throw a grenade at the rough direction of the enemy and one of the enemy hit was a medic, was that a crime?  Nope.  You are not targetting a medic, you are targetting the enemy.  The medic happens to be one of them.  Do I NOT call arty on a group of 100 enemy in the woods because I figure in one hundred enemy there is probably at least one medic? My answer follows:

"G21 this is 42A, Fire Mission, over."
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Yrys on March 26, 2008, 19:25:10
1. What if he is a dual national?  What is the situation then if both your nations are fighting each other and you pick one? This ain't just about Khadr now, how many millions of Canadian 'duals' would fight for old country against Canada like the "Kamloops Kid" did in WW2? The answer may be disturbing.

In the Kadr case, as far as I know, he wasn't fighting for a country, but for the insurgents. But I'm no SME ...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: NL_engineer on March 26, 2008, 20:04:07
1. What if he is a dual national?  What is the situation then if both your nations are fighting each other and you pick one? This ain't just about Khadr now, how many millions of Canadian 'duals' would fight for old country against Canada like the "Kamloops Kid" did in WW2? The answer may be disturbing.

Thats why we should have something like this

Quote
Solemnly, freely, and without mental reservation, I hereby renounce under oath all allegiance to any foreign state. My fidelity and allegiance from this day forward is to the United States of America. I pledge to support, honor, and be loyal to the United States, its Constitution, and its laws. Where and if lawfully required, I further commit myself to defend the Constitution and laws of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, either by military, noncombatant, or civilian service. This I do solemnly swear, so help me God.

It may help get rid of those that use there Canadian Citizenship as a insurance policy.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hamish Seggie on March 26, 2008, 20:44:40
I've just returned from the funeral for Sgt. Jason Boyes in Shilo. By all accounts, from his peers and superiors, he was a fine soldier, husband, father and son. May he rest in peace.
When I read on this forum that certain individuals who use this means as a platform for their anti military, anti war "peace at all costs" views, it makes me very angry, and sad that fellow Canadians do not, or refuse to understand the mindset of the enemy we MUST fight.
Then, I remember we are fighting for our freedom of expression, religion, association and all the other freedoms we take for granted. I may not agree with your point of view, but I'll vigourously defend that right to freedom of expression. Do not expect me to be kind or understanding when I disagree. I think most soldiers will agree with me
As for Omar Khadr? The due process of law must prevail.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: X-mo-1979 on March 26, 2008, 22:21:13
All I know it makes me sick to know a poor Canadian family has these people for neighbours.

Why do an Al Qaida family DESERVE to live in our country?Isn't that like have lice,getting rid of them and saving one to place on your head....because you only want to get rid of the ones that bit you?Well guess what Canada that louse will bite.Guaranteed.

I am a huge fan of human rights,I'm also a huge fan of looking at terrorist scum through barbed wire and cement.
Maybe it's time to turn up heat on these people INCLUDING their family's.Maybe we have to start taking mommy Khadr into a dark room and finding out what she knows.Let's face,my wife can tell the difference between a T-54 and a T-62,she knows the gist of what is going on at my work place.So does Mrs Khadr within the terrorist ring.

Ship her off as well.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Technoviking on March 26, 2008, 22:32:24
I vehemently disagree with sending the entire family off.  Remember that blood is thicker than water, and yes, they may have said things or whatever, but the sins of the father do not pass on to the entire family. 
Your wife may be able to tell the difference between a T-54 and a T-62, but mine doesn't.  And she's been an army wife for going on 12 years now.  Heck, she doesn't even know the rank structure, and she doesn't really care.  Nor should she.
Unless Mrs. Khadr does something illegal, let her be.  Live and let live.
As Old Soldeuer said:
Quote
The due process of law must prevail.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: X-mo-1979 on March 26, 2008, 22:49:13
I vehemently disagree with sending the entire family off.  Remember that blood is thicker than water, and yes, they may have said things or whatever, but the sins of the father do not pass on to the entire family. 
Your wife may be able to tell the difference between a T-54 and a T-62, but mine doesn't.  And she's been an army wife for going on 12 years now.  Heck, she doesn't even know the rank structure, and she doesn't really care.  Nor should she.
Unless Mrs. Khadr does something illegal, let her be.  Live and let live.
As Old Soldeuer said:

I do see your point of view.
However ;D
If your wife was living with you in the field,on ex Royal Fist(ing) with you...I'm sure she would have an excellent understanding of what was going on,who was in charge,future op's etc.
Let's face it if every day you came back to camp sat around a fire and chatted about killing infidels with the family,what the main goals were,who wanted to get what done....
Not to mention the wife rumour mill's,sitting around base camp all day washing clothes tending to the children I'm sure they were talking about stuff that they had heard their wonderful spouses talk about.

In a family where every child,and her husband was/is a terrorist,add in no television,and a sand hut it slowly goes back to old days in North America.What else do you have to talk about?Britney spears drug addiction or breakdown has proably not reached them yet.

It's kinda hard to leave work at work when your house is a IED factory in a terrorist camp.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Trinity on March 26, 2008, 22:56:42
Is having knowledge of the crime before it happens akin to conspiracy to those who are going to commit it?

She would have extensive knowledge of her husbands activities.  Now of course with no proof she's
technically able to live happily anywhere she pleases. 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: sober_ruski on March 28, 2008, 04:41:25
I vehemently disagree with sending the entire family off.  Remember that blood is thicker than water, and yes, they may have said things or whatever, but the sins of the father do not pass on to the entire family. 
Your wife may be able to tell the difference between a T-54 and a T-62, but mine doesn't.  And she's been an army wife for going on 12 years now.  Heck, she doesn't even know the rank structure, and she doesn't really care.  Nor should she.
Unless Mrs. Khadr does something illegal, let her be.  Live and let live.
As Old Soldeuer said:


http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/khadr/timeline.html

Their entire family is all sorts of ****ed up.

What makes me angry, is that after one of them killing a Canadian soldier with in a suicide bombing, they bring another little crap rat for treatment after a "firefight". I wonder who it was "firefighting" against. wink wink nudge nudge

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on March 28, 2008, 20:19:37
What makes me angry, is that after one of them killing a Canadian soldier with in a suicide bombing, they bring another little crap rat for treatment after a "firefight". I wonder who it was "firefighting" against. wink wink nudge nudge
Huh?

Which Khadr killed a Canadian soldier?
I must have been away & asleep when this happened - when did it happen?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: the 48th regulator on March 29, 2008, 08:16:46
Huh?

Which Khadr killed a Canadian soldier?
I must have been away & asleep when this happened - when did it happen?

It was llater debunked.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2004/02/04/taliban040204.html

dileas

tess
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: MCG on March 29, 2008, 10:30:58
1. What if he is a dual national?  What is the situation then if both your nations are fighting each other and you pick one? 
That'd be fine should you renounce your citizenship to the other country.  If you don't want to give up either citizenship, then you'd better find a way to sit out the fighting. 

2.  If you throw a grenade at the rough direction of the enemy and one of the enemy hit was a medic, was that a crime?  Nope. 
This is basically my point.  A lot of people are hanging thier position on an emotional argument that a medic was killed.  That really does not matter unless you get down to the point of showing that he knew the target was a medic & that the medic was specifically the target.  I'd tend to suspect that the medic was not even marked as such & so would impact on the legal dynamic of the situation. 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: X-mo-1979 on March 29, 2008, 14:12:07
This is basically my point.  A lot of people are hanging thier position on an emotional argument that a medic was killed.  That really does not matter unless you get down to the point of showing that he knew the target was a medic & that the medic was specifically the target.  I'd tend to suspect that the medic was not even marked as such & so would impact on the legal dynamic of the situation. 

I don't think too many people are.
The fact is a US soldier was killed by an action of insurgents in this building.Was it Omar?Hard to say really.Either way with the video stills of the alleged Omar making IED's out of anti tank mines,his ranting with the koran in hand with his AK behind him and then being in a building where this all occurred....I'm saying guilty.

Maybe the reason some people are using the medic angle is to make it look like he killed a defenseless person,who was only there to help people.
Either way he was involved in the killing of these two fine men.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: the 48th regulator on March 29, 2008, 16:02:57
Hey X-Mo,

Cheers, I had not even heard about the videos and such, so I went looking;

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=3518748n

dileas

tess
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: X-mo-1979 on March 29, 2008, 16:34:49
N/P
Glad to get the information out there,not many people have heard of it.I'm slightly obsessed about this trial.

Here's another awesome video of SFC Layne Morris, who was there during the firefight.
Please give this video a look,and please wait till the CBC "the setup" is done.It has a interview with SFC Morris who was there during and after the firefight.

And then people say he isn't guilty?Give this a go.

http://www.cbc.ca/mrl3/30569/thehour/videos/20051109-Khadr_soldier.wmv
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: NL_engineer on March 29, 2008, 16:42:10
Hey X-Mo,

Cheers, I had not even heard about the videos and such, so I went looking;

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=3518748n

dileas

tess


Well, I think he should be allowed to go after the war is over  ;D  that was we get our kick at the can, I think these will fit well:

1. Treason as defined here (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-46/bo-ga:l_II-gb:s_46//en#anchorbo-ga:l_II-gb:s_46)
2. Terrorism as defined here (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-46/bo-ga:l_II_1//en#anchorbo-ga:l_II_1)
3. Murder in commission of offences as defined here (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-46/bo-ga:l_VIII-gb:s_229//en#anchorbo-ga:l_VIII-gb:s_229)
4. Murder during terrorist activity as defined here (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-46/bo-ga:l_VIII-gb:s_229//en#anchorbo-ga:l_VIII-gb:s_229)
5. Using explosives in association with criminal organization as defined here (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-46/bo-ga:l_VIII-gb:s_229//en#anchorbo-ga:l_VIII-gb:s_229)


Well thats all I can think of at the moment.


Maybe we can trial him in the US and lock him up in the US to reduce costs associated with him in a Canadian jail  ;D


Is it just me, or was that 14 year old talking about sex  ::)  I think someone needs to give him a smack up side the head and tell him to wait till his 18  ;D
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: MCG on May 08, 2008, 09:51:04
Quote
Canadian child soldier faces Nuremberg-type charges
Updated Wed. May. 7 2008 9:04 PM ET
CTV.ca News Staff

Canadian Omar Khadr is about to become the first child soldier to be tried for war crimes since the Nuremberg trials against the Nazis.

A military judge in the United States has given the go-ahead to a military commission to prosecute the child soldier for war crimes. He has been languishing in a jail cell in the internationally-condemned U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, since he was 15-years-old.

As U.S. military prosecutors get set to prosecute the Canadian, his case was kicked around like a political football in Ottawa.

Domestic and international observers -- including Canadian and European human rights activists and legal organizations -- have been pressing Prime Minister Stephen Harper to repatriate Khadr for years.

Liberal Leader Stephane Dion on Wednesday demanded to know why the government has not called for the Canadian citizen's return like other Western nations have with their citizens.

"It's the freedom of a Canadian citizen that's at stake," Dion said during question period in the House of Commons.

"Why is the prime minister refusing to demand the return of a Canadian citizen?"

Harper's response to questions about the child soldier's fate was similar to answers he has been given about his government's handling of election tactics, environmental policies, and bureaucratic issues -- he said the previous government was no different. Harper said the Liberals did not do anything to help Khadr when they were in power.

"The only thing that has changed is that in 2006 Canadians changed governments," Harper said.

Harper said Khadr, who was taken by his father to war-torn Afghanistan as a child, faces serious charges.

Deputy Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff brought up the case of Abousfian Abdelrazik, a Canadian on a no-fly list because of alleged ties to terrorists who is stuck in Sudan. His family has said he is not a terrorist and wants Canada to help bring him home. Internal government documents suggest that even some foreign affairs officials say "it's unethical" to leave the Canadian in a legal limbo.

Ignatieff suggested that the Conservatives are picking and choosing which Canadians they want to help overseas.

Last week, Brenda Martin, who was convicted in connection with a fraud scheme in Mexico, was brought home to Canada on a private jet. She was allowed to serve her time in a Canadian prison after several top-level officials in Ottawa -- including the prime minister -- spoke with their Mexican counterparts.

Khadr, now 21, is the only remaining Western prisoner at Guantanamo Bay. Canada, unlike other Western nations who had citizens detained there, has not pushed to have Khadr returned home.

Khadr was captured in 2002 following a firefight with U.S. Special Forces. He was brought to the country by his father, who had ties to al Qaeda and was killed in Pakistan in 2003. The Pentagon maintains Khadr threw a grenade during the fight, killing a U.S. soldier.

"No part of this story is true," his lawyer U.S. navy Lt.-Cmdr. William Kuebler told a parliamentary committee in Ottawa last month.

He was a "frightened, wounded 15-year-old boy" during his capture, Kuebler said.

He said Khadr was then shot twice in the back by a U.S. soldier and would have been summarily executed on the spot had another soldier not intervened. Kuebler has also said that the U.S. has doctored evidence against the Canadian.

He noted he does not think that the Canadian government should punish Khadr for the sins of his father.

Kuebler said international protocol establishes that soldiers under 18 cannot be considered voluntary participants in armed conflict. He said the protocol has established that child soldiers should receive "rehabilitative rather than punitive sentences."

Khadr is expected to appear again in a military court Thursday. His lawyers are trying to obtain documentary evidence about the case from the prosecution.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080507/omar_khadr_080507/20080507?hub=World
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: karl28 on May 08, 2008, 10:42:43
the 48th regulator 
 
     Thanks for posting that link  I found it very informative .  I to think he is guilty just from what the videos shown in that link you provided . The only thing I can't understand  is why in the world would we allow his family to live in Canada .    As far as I am concerned once a Terrorist always a Terrorist  .
       Leave it to Stephen Dion to cheer for a wrong cause just so he can gather some votes .  One more reason why he should never be aloud to be a Prime minister .
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Technoviking on May 08, 2008, 13:56:36
So, "they" have been lobbying PM Harper "for years" on this one, eh?  As in "two" years?  I seem to recall him becoming PM in 2006.  This is 2008, so....

What was the "previous" government doing about Khadr's release prior to 2006?  Just curious....
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: BernDawg on May 08, 2008, 15:56:51
Dollars to doughnuts that all Brenda Martin did was cash her pay cheque to be "guilty" of money laundering in Mexico.  The cases are not similar at all.  Were she found guilty of murder in Mexico she would not be sent home.  Not to mention that there was no action to re-pat her until she was tried and sentenced.  So if that is the standard we have a bit of a wait ahead of us yet.  I recall reading that the British subjects sent home from Gitmo were done so to serve out their sentences, no?
Every time I read about that little crap (kahdr) I get ill thinking about how his family has buggered our country and continues to do so.  :rage:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on May 08, 2008, 18:52:07
As for Omar Khadr? The due process of law must prevail.

A .22 short in the back of the head, in a ditch on a quiet country road. No publicity, no media announcment, no hoop-la, just a muffled shot in the night.

Justice would be swift.

This whole family is a disgrace, and as far as I am concerend should just 'conveniently' disappear.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Larry Strong on May 08, 2008, 22:38:11


Quote
Khadr was captured in 2002 following a firefight with U.S. Special Forces. He was brought to the country by his father, who had ties to al Qaeda and was killed in Pakistan in 2003. The Pentagon maintains Khadr threw a grenade during the fight, killing a U.S. soldier.


"No part of this story is true," his lawyer U.S. navy Lt.-Cmdr. William Kuebler told a parliamentary committee in Ottawa last month.


He was a "frightened, wounded 15-year-old boy" during his capture, Kuebler said.

He said Khadr was then shot twice in the back by a U.S. soldier and would have been summarily executed on the spot had another soldier not intervened.


Really to bad that was never carried thru.

 http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080507/omar_khadr_080507?s_name=&no_ads=
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: ArmyVern on May 09, 2008, 07:12:04

Really to bad that was never carried thru.

 http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080507/omar_khadr_080507?s_name=&no_ads=


Moderator Warnings   after a few complaints coming in:

I realize that this topic is pretty emotional and everything ... but committing a war crime or sanctionning the commission of such? That is what that action would be.

Let's remember on this site exactly why we are "Lawful Combattants" shall we? The public and the media ARE seeing the words that you "say" here -- and sometimes the impression being left isn't all that nice.

Same with your's Wes -- murder is still murder.

ArmyVern
The Milnet.ca Staff
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on May 10, 2008, 04:09:27
Complaining???

Good gawd.

Did you call them a whaaaaabulance, or offer them some cheese with their whine, or some tissues for their ussues  ;D ?

What we said was simply tongue in cheek from the ongoing frustration from this group of losers. None of us are serious. Those who can't read what we are saying have a hidden agenda. Thats as plain as the broken nose on my face.

Come on Sarge, sum up....

I hope the left wing liberal limpwristed snivel libertarian granola eating alph-alpha loving tie dye wearing metrosexual nose pierced flower wearing dope smoking head in the sand save the whales freakazoids who pander such crap feel happy by sufficating those of us who have opinions are happy now.

Enough of the PCness.

Anyone who thinks this Khadr family are not a disgrace (and should no longer grace our country's land) are un-Canadian as far as I am concerned.

Would those who complained have been happier if I said, its time for a group hug, so lets give them a new house, car, and a payout of 100 million bucks for offending them? 

I would not be the first person to suggest on here that they take a dirt nap, nor will I be the last. We are expressing our anger and outrage.

Being realistic, many of us are beyond frustrated by those who support open terrorism, then rape and pillage the wealth from the fruit of our great nation by sucking the welfare system, and using the laws we passed to protect ourselves against us. This family are undeserving, and should be deported via frogmarch on the next dirty empty oil tanker off the Halifax pier as far as I am concerned. Of course at night without media hype  ;)

If they lived where I grew up, they would have been burnt out and long since moved on.

Please consider this a complaint against the whinging complainers  ;)

Cold beers,

Wes

EDIT - Yes I am into the whisky tonight :blotto:

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: ArmyVern on May 10, 2008, 11:42:15
Complaining???

Good gawd.

Did you call them a whaaaaabulance, or offer them some cheese with their whine, or some tissues for their ussues  ;D ?

What we said was simply tongue in cheek from the ongoing frustration from this group of losers. None of us are serious. Those who can't read what we are saying have a hidden agenda. Thats as plain as the broken nose on my face.

Come on Sarge, sum up....

I hope the left wing liberal limpwristed snivel libertarian granola eating alph-alpha loving tie dye wearing metrosexual nose pierced flower wearing dope smoking head in the sand save the whales freakazoids who pander such crap feel happy by sufficating those of us who have opinions are happy now.

Enough of the PCness.

Anyone who thinks this Khadr family are not a disgrace (and should no longer grace our country's land) are un-Canadian as far as I am concerned.

Would those who complained have been happier if I said, its time for a group hug, so lets give them a new house, car, and a payout of 100 million bucks for offending them? 

I would not be the first person to suggest on here that they take a dirt nap, nor will I be the last. We are expressing our anger and outrage.

Being realistic, many of us are beyond frustrated by those who support open terrorism, then rape and pillage the wealth from the fruit of our great nation by sucking the welfare system, and using the laws we passed to protect ourselves against us. This family are undeserving, and should be deported via frogmarch on the next dirty empty oil tanker off the Halifax pier as far as I am concerned. Of course at night without media hype  ;)

If they lived where I grew up, they would have been burnt out and long since moved on.

Please consider this a complaint against the whinging complainers  ;)

Cold beers,

Wes

EDIT - Yes I am into the whisky tonight :blotto:

Drinking tonight or not -- Fair Warning --

Enough already.

ArmyVern
The Milnet.ca Staff
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Chief Engineer on May 13, 2008, 22:43:21
By John Ward, The Canadian Press
ADVERTISEMENT

OTTAWA - Canada and the United States have sunk to the moral equivalent of terrorists in their handling of a young Canadian held at Guantanamo Bay, says Liberal senator and ex-general Romeo Dallaire.

Dallaire says the two countries have flouted human rights and international conventions in dealing with Omar Khadr and are no better than those who don't believe in rights at all.

He told a House of Commons committee Tuesday that Khadr is a victim - a child soldier who should be rehabilitated and reintegrated into society and not tried before what he called an illegal court.

Canada should be bending over backward to bring him home, said Dallaire, formerly Canada's special UN ambassador for children.

Khadr was 15 when he was captured after a fire fight in Afghanistan and has been held in the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, for six years. American authorities now are attempting to try him before a special tribunal.

Dallaire, whose troubling experiences during the 1994 Rwanda genocide helped make him an outspoken advocate of human rights, said the Khadr case points out a moral equivalence among Canada, the United States and al-Qaida.

The United States is ignoring its own laws in prosecuting Khadr and Canada is betraying itself by not fighting for Khadr's return home, he said.

He said the Americans were acting out of panic after 9/11 and Canada was playing politics and that left them no better than the terrorists.

"The minute you start playing with human rights, with conventions, with civil liberties, in order to say that you're doing it to protect yourself and you are going against those rights and conventions, you are no better than the guy who doesn't believe in them at all," he said.

"We are slipping down the slope of going down that same route."

Tory MP Jason Kenney asked if Dallaire really believes that. He pointed to a number of al-Qaida outrages, including an incident in which the terror group reportedly outfitted mentally challenged young girls with explosive belts and sent them to their deaths in a Baghdad animal market.

"Is it your testimony that al-Qaida strapping up a 14-year-old girl with Down syndrome and sending her into a pet market to be remotely detonated is the moral equivalent to Canada's not making extraordinary political efforts for a transfer of Omar Khadr to this country?" he asked.

Dallaire was adamant.

"If you want a black and white, and I'm only too prepared to give it to you, absolutely," he replied. "You're either with the law or not with the law. You're either guilty or you're not."

He added, though, that Kenney was using "extreme scenarios."

Kenney was dismissive: "I submit that the only thing extreme here is what you're saying."

Liberal Leader Stephane Dion said he disagreed with Dallaire's choice of words, and hinted the senator could be disciplined.

"This is a matter to deal with the (party) whip, and we'll deal with that," Dion told reporters.

"I would express that in my own way. I would say that Canada should do like the other countries and ask the government of the United States to bring this Canadian home to be prosecuted in Canada."

"The inaction of the government is unacceptable." 


Wow, I lost a lot of respect for Dallaire for making comments like that, but its not surprising coming from a Liberal.
__________________
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: MCG on May 13, 2008, 23:00:54
Quote
U.S. paid bounty for Khadr arrest in Pakistan
COLIN FREEZE
From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
May 12, 2008 at 9:32 PM EDT

A U.S. intelligence agency paid a bounty of $500,000 (U.S.) to Pakistani military officials who arrested a Canadian citizen wanted for links to al-Qaeda, according to a new Federal Court ruling.

Mr. Justice Richard Mosley ordered an Oct. 19, 2004, RCMP memo released yesterday after lawyers for The Globe and Mail fought for its disclosure. The newspaper obtained the document more than a year ago, but chose not to publish it after Crown lawyers warned that the release of the information could illegally reveal a state secret.

U.S. officials - likely from the Central Intelligence Agency - had regarded the bounty as sensitive information passed along to Canada in confidence, prompting officials to fight to keep it secret.

Marked "Top Secret," the internal Mountie memo was addressed to former RCMP commissioner Giuliano Zaccardelli. Its subject matter was the arrest in Pakistan of Abdullah Khadr, now 28 and jailed in Toronto, the oldest living male member of Canada's infamous Khadr clan.

"He is deemed to be a national security threat and has a $USD 500,000 outstanding bounty for his capture," the memo reads. "He is deemed to be a great intelligence asset due to his close relationship with Osama bin Laden and other [al-Qaeda] members."

The suspect is the older brother of Omar Khadr, who was arrested at 15 in Afghanistan and sent to the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay.

Like his siblings, Abdullah Khadr was raised in Afghanistan by a fundamentalist father, a naturalized Canadian, who befriended Mr. bin Laden while fighting the Soviets.

The family fled to Pakistan in late 2001, where the local army killed the Khadr family patriarch in 2003 and arrested Abdullah Khadr a year later. He was questioned by a host of U.S., Canadian, and Pakistani agents while in custody for nearly a year. During that time, he is alleged to have made several admissions about running guns and rocket launchers to al-Qaeda fighters in Afghanistan.

Mr. Khadr was released in 2005, and Canadian officials facilitated his repatriation, but he was arrested within days of landing in Toronto. More than two years later, he continues to fight extradition to Boston on a U.S. indictment alleging material support for terrorism. While the Mounties say they considered Mr. Khadr a "primary target" of their own investigation, they never laid any charges in Canada.

So far, Mr. Khadr's allegations that he was tortured in Pakistan, and his battles for disclosure of documents in Canada, have stymied all attempts to extradite him. Officials allege he admitted running guns across the Pakistan-Afghanistan border - "I only buy and sell weapons for al-Qaeda," he told authorities, according to a transcript - and also said he used a GPS device to map out co-ordinates for Pakistani jihadists plotting to assassinate Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf.

It was amid the Canadian disclosure battle that federal officials inadvertently released to Mr. Khadr's lawyers the top secret Mountie memo as part of the case's voluminous court filings.

Citing secrecy provisions in the Canada Evidence Act, Crown officials tried to pull it back within hours of its release last spring, and, after learning The Globe and Mail had obtained a copy in the interim, warned that publication could lead to prosecution.

That set the stage for a court battle that ended yesterday with Judge Mosley supporting the news media's right to publish the document. "It is a reasonable inference from the public evidence filed in this application that the bounty was offered and paid by the U.S. government," his 47-page decision reads.

Judge Mosley then went one step further, confirming that the payment was made, even though the memo said only that the bounty was offered.

"The evidence heard in camera supports the conclusion that the bounty was offered and paid by the U.S.," Judge Mosley said in his ruling.

The Federal Court found that the information was supplied to Canada in confidence, and that the attorney-general had acted in good faith by striving to keep it secret. Even so, Judge Mosley ruled that the memo is crucial to Mr. Khadr's defence and the public has a right to know about it.

"The fact that a foreign state paid a bounty for the apprehension of a Canadian citizen abroad and that Canadian officials were aware of it at an early stage is also a matter in which the public would have a legitimate interest," the decision reads.

Government lawyers had argued that a "third-party rule" in intelligence circles keeps vital information flowing among states. Global counterterrorism agencies swap secrets on the understanding that sensitive foreign-generated information should not be publicly produced domestically. To jeopardize the third-party rule is often seen as tantamount to risking the entire flow of information.

Peter Jacobsen, the lawyer who acted for The Globe and Mail, called the ruling a victory for transparency. "It was a crack in the system that allowed The Globe to know this information even existed," he said. "... One wonders how much other information is out there being unjustifiably kept from the public in the name of risk to national security or international relations."

Mr. Khadr's lawyer, Nathan Whitling, said the memo is crucial. "The secret payment of this bounty is another illustration of the U.S.'s notorious practice of 'outsourcing torture,' " he said in an e-mail.

"Rather than getting its own hands dirty, the U.S. simply paid the Musharraf regime $500,000 to arrest Mr. Khadr, knowing full well what Pakistan would do to him."

When asked which U.S. intelligence agency paid the bounty, another one of Mr. Khadr's lawyers said it was obvious. "The CIA," said Dennis Edney. Asked if he had any doubt about that, he said, "none at all."

Mr. Edney added that records show that the CIA questioned Mr. Khadr for 17 days at the beginning of his detention in Pakistan. Defence lawyers intend to argue that the CIA grilling sessions informed, influenced and tainted all subsequent interrogations, nullifying any admissions Mr. Khadr may have made.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080512.wkhadr0512/BNStory/International/?cid=al_gam_nletter_newsUp
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: ArmyVern on May 13, 2008, 23:26:26
Hmmm,

My take -- they paid a bounty for a terrorist who was admittedly running guns on behalf of Al-Qaida in Pakistan/Afghanistan who happens to be a Canadian citizen (and being that WE are also in Afghanistan and Al-Qaida is our enemy -- seems quite like the definition of "traitor" to me). What seems to be the big deal?

His Canadian citizenship should somehow protect him from being sought out for his actions?? Spare me. Only in the purple sky world ...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on May 13, 2008, 23:37:35
Maybe its time that Romeo offers him and his family a group hug, and a we're sorry poster.

I don't think dear sweet Romeo is going to generate much of a fan club shy of the LWDGs and other nutcases. He is not in touch with reality and the overall Canadain public (or so I think), and if he thinks he is scoring political points for his party, well I think he is not.

His comments to me, well personally, and to be serious for one word, are simply 'disgusting'.

Perhaps he should walk accross the floor to Taliban Jack and their ilk?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on May 14, 2008, 10:21:07
While I might dissagree with Gen Dallaire, I do not think it is reasonnable for the US Government to perpetuate Khadr's detention without due process / trial.
If the US is not prepared to proceed with the due process, then quite possibly, Canada should step up and put him thru the court process...

Isn't that what the US , AUSTRALIA AND BRITAIN did with their own Citzens?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Technoviking on May 14, 2008, 10:24:53
While I might dissagree with Gen Dallaire, I do not think it is reasonnable for the US Government to perpetuate Khadr's detention without due process / trial.
If the US is not prepared to proceed with the due process, then quite possibly, Canada should step up and put him thru the court process...

Isn't that what the US , AUSTRALIA AND BRITAIN did with their own Citzens?
Yes.  Put them through court processes.  Yes.  Totally reasonable.

::)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: NL_engineer on May 14, 2008, 12:00:35
Well we should bring him back to Canada, and charge him with what I posted a few months ago, but only if it is harsher then he gets from the US; or even better fly a judge down to Cuba so we can charge him under Canadian Law at the same time.  That way he gets a faster "Go directly to Jail"  ;D


1. Treason as defined here (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-46/bo-ga:l_II-gb:s_46//en#anchorbo-ga:l_II-gb:s_46)
2. Terrorism as defined here (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-46/bo-ga:l_II_1//en#anchorbo-ga:l_II_1)
3. Murder in commission of offences as defined here (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-46/bo-ga:l_VIII-gb:s_229//en#anchorbo-ga:l_VIII-gb:s_229)
4. Murder during terrorist activity as defined here (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-46/bo-ga:l_VIII-gb:s_229//en#anchorbo-ga:l_VIII-gb:s_229)
5. Using explosives in association with criminal organization as defined here (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-46/bo-ga:l_VIII-gb:s_229//en#anchorbo-ga:l_VIII-gb:s_229)


Well thats all I can think of at the moment.


Maybe we can trial him in the US and lock him up in the US to reduce costs associated with him in a Canadian jail  ;D
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on May 14, 2008, 13:45:18
Considering all the false starts that have happened WRT this Khadr trial, it makes the US military judicial process appear so incompetent (or possibly corrupt - WRT information withheld fromn defense).  Let's do it - regardless of the endstate and move on.

As things stand, neither the Cdn or US Govts appear well in the court of public opinion.  Time to close this chapter
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: KevinB on May 14, 2008, 15:38:36
   ::)    Sorry GEO on this I think you following down similar lines as that crackpot Dallaire
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on May 14, 2008, 16:32:01
Hey Kev,

Don't think so...
The US gov't has dictated that their military will put Mr Khadr on trial.....
let them do so with all due haste - as they have indicated they will.

What is it about their DUE PROCESS that is stalling the trial?
They had the will and the means to coduct war crime trials in Nuremburg.... let's get er done.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on May 14, 2008, 19:01:45
The Canadian tax payer should not be burdened one cent with this guy.

He commited a crime against the USA, and killed a US soldier in a foreign country while at war, and as far as I am concerned, let the Yanks foot the bill and throw away the key after the trial.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on May 14, 2008, 19:05:44
Not a problem Wes..... would just like the Yanks to get it over with.
Get it out of the press - if that's at all possible... I'm tired of hearing about it & going thru with the trial is the only way I can see this being concluded.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: 2 Cdo on May 15, 2008, 10:20:47
   ::)    Sorry GEO on this I think you following down similar lines as that crackpot Dallaire

Careful with that crackpot comment, some people on this site seem to worship at the altar of Romeo. >:D I personally think it was an apt description of him.

My take on the Khadr clan is simple, 1. Send them all packing 2. Revoke their citizenship 3. Ignore the idiot in Gitmo.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hamish Seggie on May 15, 2008, 10:31:35
I do find it amazing that we want to thorw the book at teenage car thieves, but we treat this terrorist family with kid gloves.
I wouldn't shed too many tears over this individual. In fact, none at all.
As for Senator Dalliare, while I agree with some of his views, I can't agree with him on this.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on May 15, 2008, 13:34:01
OS... Note that I do not dissagree with your last statement BUT, if the US has indicated that they will bring him to trial and see justice done.... then, let's get the show on the road and serve justice as prescribed....

The long drawn out story is just creating the impression that the US is trying to hide something ( what? )
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hamish Seggie on May 15, 2008, 15:08:40
I agree with you on that one geo. Lets' get in done.
Have you ever listened to Black Op Radio?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on May 15, 2008, 19:41:58
Black op radio... nope, don't need no stinking radio to see conspiracies.... they're everywhere >:D

Let's get it done
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Thucydides on May 18, 2008, 11:19:48
More evidence surfaces:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080515.wkhadrzaynab15/BNStory/National/home

Quote
Computer held by Khadr's sister contains al-Qaeda files, RCMP say

COLIN FREEZE

From Thursday's Globe and Mail

May 15, 2008 at 4:48 AM EDT

The RCMP say they have uncovered a treasure trove of al-Qaeda files from a computer once held by Abdullah Khadr's sister, including "some sort of military operational plan to infiltrate Burma," according to court files seen by The Globe and Mail.

In February, 2005, Zaynab Khadr left Pakistan to return to Canada, where she has never been arrested or charged with a crime. Still, the Mounties claim she left behind "two large metal containers" in Pakistan that they searched once they were shipped to Canada on June 15, 2005.

Court documents filed in one of her brother's cases show the Mounties say they found a hard drive that includes "material dealing with bomb making, ricin, techniques of assassination, chemicals, poisons, silencers, etc; incoming and outgoing e-mails of Zaynab Khadr."

The once-secret RCMP memo of August, 2005, then goes on to describe other seized files, including "some sort of military operational plan to infiltrate Burma and establish an al-Qaeda base, curriculum for religious studies at al-Faruq training camp, techniques to invade prisons, contract for immoral acts; administrative letters from [Osama bin Laden], ETC."

Asked about the alleged findings yesterday, a lawyer for the Khadr family said: "We don't have any knowledge about the provenance of this material." Nathan Whitling added in his e-mail: "We note that no prosecution has resulted from any of this."

The computer seizure in question is distinct from a previously reported seizure of Ms. Khadr's laptop that occurred as she arrived at Pearson International Airport in Toronto.

A court-filed transcript shows her brother, in a subsequent RCMP interview, upheld that much of the extremist propaganda on the laptop did not belong to Zaynab. "That's my father's hard drive," Abdullah Khadr told the Mounties. He later added that he had personally directed his sister to upload certain jihadist material.

The date of the RCMP container searches - June 15, 2005 - is significant. That was the day Canadian officials had hoped to put Abdullah Khadr on board a British Airways flight back to Canada, before his Pakistani jailers suddenly reneged for unexplained reasons.

Asked whether there was a relationship between the searches and the scuttled flight, Mr. Whitling said: "We do not believe that any of the material seized has anything to do with his case or the cancellation of his flight."

The fruits of the computer seizures are documented on a Aug. 23, 2005, fax the Mounties sent to the FBI, who were growing increasingly interested in prosecuting a Khadr. A censored version of the memo is now publicly available as part of the continuing Abdullah Khadr extradition case.

Records show the Mounties were very curious to know about the family's relationship with a reputed al-Qaeda bomb-maker - since killed - known as Abu Khabbab Al-Masri, whom the RCMP suggest actually wrote many of the seized files. "He knew my father but they were not on good terms," Abdullah Khadr told the Mounties.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: MCG on May 23, 2008, 17:36:39
Quote
Supreme Court ruling a partial win for Omar Khadr

Updated Fri. May. 23 2008 1:04 PM ET
CTV.ca News Staff

Omar Khadr won a limited victory in the Supreme Court of Canada Friday, but his lawyer had hoped for more.

In a 9-0 ruling, the SCC said that Khadr has a constitutional right to material related to interviews conducted by Canadian officials in 2003 at Guantanamo Bay.

But the ruling allows the government to object to releasing some documents for national security reasons. The SCC ruling also said that Khadr does not have the right to access some of the documents that Ottawa holds regarding the case.

Khadr's Canadian lawyer, Nathan Whitling, told Canada AM that the ruling contained both "good and bad news."

Whitling said that he won't get many of the documents he wanted.

A Federal Court judge will review the materials and decide which ones to disclose.

The SCC decision was based on a "U.S. Supreme Court decision in 2004 that said that the Guantanamo Bay process violates international law," CTV's Rosemary Thompson told Canada AM Friday.

The ruling could have far-flung implications as legal experts say it could decide whether, diplomats, intelligence officials and military officials are bound to uphold the Charter of Rights in overseas dealings.

"The process in place at Guantanamo Bay at the time Canadian officials interviewed K(hadr) and passed on the fruits of the interviews to U.S. officials has been found by the U.S. Supreme Court ... to violate U.S. domestic law and international human rights obligations to which Canada subscribes,'' the ruling said.

Khadr, now 21, is the only remaining Western prisoner at Guantanamo Bay. The Canadian government, unlike other Western nations who had citizens detained there, has not pushed to have Khadr returned home.

Khadr was captured in 2002 following a firefight with U.S. Special Forces. He was taken to Afghanistan by his father, who had ties to al Qaeda and was killed in Pakistan in 2003. The Pentagon maintains Khadr threw a grenade during the fight, killing a U.S. soldier.

Foreign Affairs and CSIS officials questioned Khadr at Guantanamo in 2003, and shared their findings with the U.S.

With files from The Canadian Press
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080523/khadr_SCC_080523/20080523?hub=TopStories
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: MCG on June 03, 2008, 02:31:53
Quote
Khadr 'salvageable:' U.S. guard
Steven Edwards ,  Canwest News Service
Published: 2330ish, 02 Jun 08

NEW YORK - Omar Khadr's American guards at Guantanamo Bay describe the Canadian terror suspect as "salvageable," "non-radicalized" and a "good kid," according to internal reports written by Canadian government officials who've visited him at the U.S. naval base in Cuba.

One also signals Khadr, 21, has begun to distance himself from his family, which many Canadians consider synonymous with terrorism because of their expressions of support for - and past involvement with - al-Qaida.

"Omar barely broached the subject of his family, beyond sharing with me a few memories, such as learning to ride a bike with his uncle in Ottawa," writes Suneeta Millington, a legal officer with the Department of Foreign Affairs, who met with Khadr in Guantanamo on March 12 and 14.

"I conveyed to him that he was now allowed another phone call home, and could let the guards know when he wanted to schedule it, but he didn't seem overly keen to do so."

The reports - a second one by Foreign Affairs deputy director Karim Amegan is based on his visits with Khadr on April 8, 9 and 11 - offer the first glimpse of the person the Toronto-born youth is today.

They emerge less than a week after the controversial war crimes commission that will try Khadr was thrown into disarray with the abrupt replacement of the case judge, army Col. Peter Brownback.

"These reports are about as close as you can get to a direct recommendation by Canadian officials for Prime Minister Stephen Harper call on the U.S. authorities to return Omar to Canada," said U.S. navy Lt.-Cmdr. Bill Kuebler, Khadr's assigned military lawyer.

"We know the Canadian government is concerned about which way Omar might turn if he returns, but here we have not only Canadian officials saying he's changed as he's matured, but the U.S. guards who see him every day."

Seized at age 15 by U.S. forces after a 2002 firefight in Afghanistan, Khadr is accused of five war crimes, including murder in a grenade attack that left a U.S. serviceman fatally wounded.

He spent much of his childhood in Afghanistan, where his Islamic fundamentalist father, a naturalized Canadian, helped build al-Qaida by serving as financier to its leader, Osama bin Laden.

Amegan's report says Khadr now believes he is a victim of his upbringing and seeks to redirect his life.

"He said that he is in Guantanamo because of his family and that he wants another chance," Amegan writes. "He said that he wants to train for a job that will allow him to play a useful role in society by helping others - he said 'the neediest'."

The U.S. doesn't allow media interviews with detainees but Canadian officials are granted so-called "welfare" visits with Khadr, the only western national among the remaining 270 terror suspects after other western governments negotiated to return their citizens.

The first known access Canadian officials had to Khadr in Guantanamo was in 2003, but the latest reports indicate he's much calmer than he was then, when he still faced regular interrogations - some of which his lawyers say involved coercion, possibly torture.

"Throughout my meetings with him, Mr. Khadr was friendly and in good humour . . .," Amegan writes. "Mr. Khadr spontaneously made the following comments: he finds court proceedings boring. He appreciates the opportunity welfare visits offer him to interact with people from Canada. He said that he trusts the Canadian officials who have visited him and sends his regards to them. He wonders however why Canada is so quiet on his case and commented that, while Canada was the best country in the world to live in, it was not as strong as the U.K. to defend its citizens abroad, although both countries have the same Queen."

The same U.S. military escort helped co-ordinate the meetings for both Amegan and Millington, and Amegan states he repeated what he had said to his Canadian colleague about Khadr being "good" and "salvageable."

"This opinion was also expressed by other U.S. officers encountered during my stay," said Amegan. "(The escort) said that extended detention in Guantanamo would, however, run the risk of turning him into a radical."

For now, Millington suggests, Khadr has not retained - or is perhaps letting go of - some of the fundamentalism that surrounded him as he grew up.

"Omar was praying when I first arrived for our initial visit, but did not seem bothered by missing a number of prayers over the course of our two visits, nor did he seem upset by the fact that I had not been able to find an English Qur'an in time to bring down with me," she writes.

Of the three camps run by the U.S. military's Joint Task Force, Khadr is held in the "medium security" Camp 4, where detainees can mix outdoors with one another on their respective small blocks for up to 20 hours a day, and have access to an exercise yard for two hours a day.

According to Millington, Khadr is "well liked both within the camp" and by the guards.

"JTF staff seem to look out for him by stopping by to chat on occasion, convincing him to meet with his lawyers and encouraging him to 'keep his nose clean'," she writes.

She also goes into more detail about what Khadr told her of his ambitions.

"He is particularly fixated with wanting to travel and see the world, connect to people from a variety of different cultures and . . . simply live a 'normal life' and be a normal person."

Millington says Khadr has focused on a number of specific goals, including becoming an Emergency Medical Technician, launching a charity to help "the neediest" in Africa, or "perhaps work" for the International Red Cross.

Khadr's father, killed in a 2003 raid by Pakistani forces, launched a charity that American prosecutors said channelled money to terrorist training camps in Afghanistan.

Millington says of the younger Khadr: "He broached the topic of public scrutiny of any organization in which he is involved, and for this reason indicated he would like to conduct all work openly and transparently, under the auspices of the United Nations."

Amegan says Khadr was receiving no formal education, and despite JTF's plans to offer the "compliant" detainees of Camp 4 literacy classes in English, Pashto and Arabic, there were "currently no teachers."

"There is a TV room where movies, nature programs and highlights of international soccer games are shown," he writes. "There is also a library . . . from which Mr. Khadr borrows novels."

He indicated Khadr, who speaks English, Arabic, Pashto and Farsi, would "like to improve his writing skills" and has a dictionary "that he tries to learn things from."

"He expressed interest in learning French and asked for a book on French for beginners," Amegan writes. "He had been provided with workbooks in mathematics during a previous visit but he said that it was too difficult for him without help."

Canwest News Service 2008
 
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=fe197c74-2c6a-427b-a1bb-e58e3314628a
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on July 10, 2008, 09:41:35
Ottawa won't seek return of Khadr, Harper says
CAMPBELL CLARK Globe and Mail Update July 10, 2008 at 3:54 AM EDT
Article Link (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080710.wwharper-khadr0710/BNStory/National/?cid=al_gam_nletter_newsUp)

TOKYO — Prime Minister Stephen Harper says he will not seek to bring alleged Canadian terrorist Omar Khadr home from Guatanamo Bay prison despite the unsealing of documents that reveal Canadian officials knew that he was deprived of sleep and forced to change cells every three hours to “make him more amenable and willing to talk.”

Mr. Harper's government has long insisted that it sought and received assurances from the U.S. that Mr. Khadr was being treated humanely, but the documents dating from 2003 and 2004 – when Mr. Khadr was 17 years old – indicate Canadian officials knew of his conditions and mistreatment.

On Thursday, Mr. Harper said Mr. Khadr is accused of serious crimes, and there's no real alternative to the special military hearings he faces – and he has no intention of asking for him to be sent to Canada.

“The answer is no,” Mr. Harper said. “The former government and our government, with the advice of the Department of Justice, considered all the questions there, and the situation remains the same.”

He argued that the special U.S. military trial that Mr. Khadr faces – in which he does not have the same standard of legal representation and rights he would in an ordinary criminal trial – is the only way he could be brought to answer the charges against him.

“Mr. Khadr is accused of very serious things. There is a legal process in the United States. He can make his arguments in that process,” Mr. Harper said on a visit to Tokyo after the three-day summit of G8 leaders in northern Japan.

“But frankly, we do not have a real alternative to that process now to get to the truth about those accusations, and we believe that this process should continue. So we are looking at that process with great interest. And we continue to seek assurances of the good treatment of Mr. Khadr.”

Mr. Khadr was 15 when he was captured after a firefight in Afghanistan in 2002. He faces multiple terrorism-related charges, the most serious dealing with the killing of a U.S. soldier. If convicted, he faces a maximum sentence of life in prison.
More on link
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: RecDiver on July 14, 2008, 18:25:02

I just sadly read that they are going to release the 7hr interrogation video which his family hopes to use for public outrage/rally to bring this killer terrorist home.

Home is where I live with my family and I do not want this terrorist here! He belongs where he is now to rot. The real outrage and public outcry should be now against these manipulative media reports with the possiblility of his return to Canadian soil.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on July 14, 2008, 19:22:40
I just sadly read that they are going to release the 7hr interrogation video which his family hopes to use for public outrage/rally to bring this killer terrorist home.

Home is where I live with my family and I do not want this terrorist here! He belongs where he is now to rot. The real outrage and public outcry should be now against these manipulative media reports with the possiblility of his return to Canadian soil.
If they want to use the video in his trial... not a problem - for local viewing.... only|
Why would they release the video to the public though ??? doesn't make any sense
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: CountDC on July 15, 2008, 10:23:34
If they want to use the video in his trial... not a problem - for local viewing.... only|
Why would they release the video to the public though ??? doesn't make any sense

I am sure they won't release the entire video.  They will go through it looking for anything "bad" that they can piece together to make it look like the poor little lad is being treated extremely bad and that he only gave his answers under extreme distress and threat of life. Personally I am beginning to think the idea of take no prisoners is sounding better and better everyday.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: North Star on July 15, 2008, 10:26:31
Lol...his family actually expects to get him back?

I suspect one of the reasons why the gov't is not asking for him back right now is so that he can be convicted of something. Then, we can negotiate his return like they did with that Martin woman and force him to undergo psychiatric treatment. If we asked the American to release him to us now, we couldn't really hold him on anything and he'd simply end up back in the Islamist community, having his mind warped even more.

I saw bits of the video today...screwed up kid, but not too out of wack with a messed up metal-head or gansta from downtown TO. If Canadians want someone to blame for that, don't blame the guard at Gitmo who seem to have been sympathetic to him - blame his mother.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: tomahawk6 on July 15, 2008, 10:36:08
A sobbing Omar Khadar being asked questions by Canadian officials.Sorry but I dont have much sympathy for al qaeda killers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7507216.stm

A videotape of a detainee being questioned at the US prison camp in Guantanamo Bay has been released for the first time.

It shows 16-year-old Omar Khadr being asked by Canadian officials in 2003 about events leading up to his capture by US forces, Canadian media have said.

The Canadian citizen is accused of throwing a grenade that killed a US soldier in Afghanistan in 2002.

He is seen in a distressed state and complaining about the medical care.

The footage was made public by Mr Khadr's lawyers following a Supreme Court ruling in May that the Canadian authorities had to hand over key evidence against him to allow a full defence of the charges he is facing.

'Help me'

Mr Khadr, the only Westerner still held at the jail, was 15 when he was captured by US forces during a gun battle at a suspected al-Qaeda camp in Afghanistan.

During the 10-minute video of his questioning in Guantanamo a year later, he can be seen crying, his face buried in his hands, and pulling at his hair. He can be heard repeatedly chanting: "Help me."

At one point he lifts his orange shirt to show the foreign ministry official and agents from the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) wounds on his back and stomach which he says he sustained in Afghanistan.

"I'm not a doctor, but I think you're getting good medical care," one of the officials responds.

Mr Khadr says: "No I'm not. You're not here... I lost my eyes. I lost my feet. Everything!" in reference to how his vision and physical health were affected.

"No, you still have your eyes and your feet are still at the end of your legs, you know," a man says.

Sobbing uncontrollably, Mr Khadr tells the officials several times: "You don't care about me."

In an accompanying classified document describing the interrogation, Mr Khadr also says he was tortured while being held at the US military detention centre at Bagram air base in Afghanistan.

One of Mr Khadr's lawyers, Dennis Edney, said they hoped the video would cause an outcry in Canada and pressure Prime Minister Stephen Harper to demand the US not prosecute their client.

"I hope Canadians will be outraged to see the callous and disgraceful treatment of a Canadian youth," Mr Edney told the Toronto Star.

"Canadians should demand to know why they've been lied to."

Mr Harper reiterated last week that he would not interfere in Mr Khadr's military tribunal, due to begin at Guantanamo on 8 October.

Mr Khadr, now 21, faces multiple terrorism-related charges, the most serious of which is murder. He faces up to life in prison if convicted.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: tomahawk6 on July 15, 2008, 10:39:25
Al Khadar being treated in the field by US medics.

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbp1.blogger.com%2F_L6pDyjqqsvY%2FSFhFsNnbD3I%2FAAAAAAAAObY%2FOdHBaKT34LU%2Fs200%2Fkhadr.jpg&hash=7df79b6934c6e93012644d636f913242)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: RecDiver on July 15, 2008, 10:41:21
- blame his mother.

and his father!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: dukkadukka on July 15, 2008, 10:43:07

One of Mr Khadr's lawyers, Dennis Edney, said they hoped the video would cause an outcry in Canada and pressure Prime Minister Stephen Harper to demand the US not prosecute their client.

"I hope Canadians will be outraged to see the callous and disgraceful treatment of a Canadian youth," Mr Edney told the Toronto Star.

"Canadians should demand to know why they've been lied to."




WHHAAT

Personally I thought they were being pretty nice to him.  It wasn't disgraceful (based on the video).
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: milnews.ca on July 15, 2008, 11:07:31
Anyone willing to share a link to said video?  Thanks in advance...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on July 15, 2008, 11:11:31
I am perfectly comfortable with him rotting in a US jail.....we owe him nothing
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: kincanucks on July 15, 2008, 11:24:24
Anyone willing to share a link to said video?  Thanks in advance...

http://www.nationalpost.com/
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: kincanucks on July 15, 2008, 11:25:36
All I can say is that it sucks to be him.  Ain't karma a *****.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: tomahawk6 on July 15, 2008, 11:30:27
The video is also at the BBC web site.Follow the link.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: North Star on July 15, 2008, 11:31:34
I honestly feel a bit sorry for him...his father led him into a bad situation, brainwashed him, and then unleashed him on trained killers who, fortunately for the boy, saved his life.

That being said, he needs to be held in custody. He can't be released without some form of rehabilitation, so he needs to be convicted of something. Then, the best he can hope for is that Canada asks for him to be transferred as a prisoner into our penal system, where he can be given the treatment he needs.

The blame rests solely on the shoulders of his mother and father. If anything, I'd arrest his mother for child abuse, and maybe treason.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: milnews.ca on July 15, 2008, 11:50:58
Thanks, all, for video links - here's one more, from the defence counsel:
http://98.130.220.175/

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: ExRCDcpl on July 15, 2008, 12:47:50
This is stuff that really boils my blood.  The kid was fighting Americans, and I'm pretty confident would have fought us too had we been there.  The west are "infidels" and they will kill any of us just as happily as an American.  Now that he's been caught he expects Canada to do something for him?  Piss on that.

I can guarantee you this though.  With the time he's spent in gitmo letting feelings and hate fester.  IF he is for whatever reason released, you can be damn sure he's heading right back to the fight again.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 15, 2008, 12:59:49
Whoa lets not jump to conclusions until all the facts are out....

Just kidding

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Shec on July 15, 2008, 13:42:02
Having yet to see the vid my twisted little mind is imagining a whirl of visuals:

(1)  A CSIS agent, dressed in jackboots and a black tunic, saying " Ve haf vays of,  shall we zay, persvading you.",

(2) Marathon Man's Sir Laurence Olivier holding a dental drill and asking Dustin Hoffman "Is it safe?",

(3) PM Taliban Jack awarding  poor, misunderstood, and angelic little Omar $10 Million and an Order of Canada.




Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 15, 2008, 13:57:29
Al Khadar being treated in the field by US medics.

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbp1.blogger.com%2F_L6pDyjqqsvY%2FSFhFsNnbD3I%2FAAAAAAAAObY%2FOdHBaKT34LU%2Fs200%2Fkhadr.jpg&hash=7df79b6934c6e93012644d636f913242)

Gross.

I wonder if they used quick clot.
*I* Would have used quick clot.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: N. McKay on July 15, 2008, 13:58:16
So.... anyone else have any interest in due process here, or am I the only one?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on July 15, 2008, 14:16:58
So.... anyone else have any interest in due process here, or am I the only one?

I agree....let him have his day in a court of the country of whom he shot and killed a member of their military....his aggression was against them, let them try him...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Rider Pride on July 15, 2008, 14:18:44
So.... anyone else have any interest in due process here, or am I the only one?
Nope, you're pretty much the only one.

He fought, intentionally or otherwise, on the side of a terrorist organization. He did so in a country that was not Canada.

All his lawyers are trying to do is to pull heart strings to get a change in political mindset here. They are not interested in Justice either.

As far as I am concerned, he can sit in Gitmo for 15-20 years....then IF he is lucky, Canada will then bring him home and put him in to Kingston pen for TREASON for the rest of his life as well.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: N. McKay on July 15, 2008, 14:23:51
I agree....let him have his day in a court of the country of whom he shot and killed a member of their military....his aggression was against them, let them try him...

Suits me.  My concern is not that he might face the US justice system, but rather that he's been in prison for six years without yet having done so.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: North Star on July 15, 2008, 14:33:24
Well, he's getting his court time now...

You have to remember, the precendents in this case are different. He's not exactly a POW, nor is he a simple criminal. It's taken all this time for the United States Supreme Court and the other components of the judiciary to figure it out (although I totally disagree with their extension of habeas corpus to aliens).

Most of these guys should be thankful the US didn't just decide to shut Gitmo down, inform the respective governments of the inmates, and present them to all sort of sketchy law enforcement/intelligence agencies. They are getting a fair shake, if not a slow one.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: abo on July 15, 2008, 16:11:18

Most of these guys should be thankful the US didn't just decide to shut Gitmo down, inform the respective governments of the inmates, and present them to all sort of sketchy law enforcement/intelligence agencies. They are getting a fair shake, if not a slow one.

Ya or worse yet, have been left in Afghanistan to be tried by the new Afghani judicial system. But like you said theres no precedent. Hes almost like a stateless individual.

However I do think a 6 year wait for a secret military tribunal is somewhat ridiculous. 6 years in limbo aside. If theres no transparency in the process then accountability is moot. We wouldn't stand for it, if it was in Canada, why should our ideals be different just because its another part of the world. Hes still a human being after all.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Technoviking on July 15, 2008, 16:58:02
Ya or worse yet, have been left in Afghanistan to be tried by the new Afghani judicial system. But like you said theres no precedent. Hes almost like a stateless individual.

However I do think a 6 year wait for a secret military tribunal is somewhat ridiculous. 6 years in limbo aside. If theres no transparency in the process then accountability is moot. We wouldn't stand for it, if it was in Canada, why should our ideals be different just because its another part of the world. Hes still a human being after all.

The young man is accused of war crimes.  The only thing he has in common with Canada is his citizenship.  Why should being a Canadian be a "carte blanche" for those who would commit crimes abroad?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: RangerBoy on July 15, 2008, 18:00:35
Appropos of nothing, time served awaiting trial (in Canada and the US) usually counts double towards eventual sentence, if any. Meaning young Mr. Khadr has effectively served a 12-year sentence, and counting. Which is over the average sentence for manslaughter (8 years) and the minimum parole eligibility period for 2nd-degree murder (10 years).
Another reason for the U.S. to stop dragging its feet and try the guy fergawdsake! The longer they take, the less time he eventually serves, always assuming the 2-for-1 rule applies in his case.
The worst thing about this case is that now it lets his charming mother and sisters tear their hair and plead for public sympathy ... these are the same gals who went on national TV a couple of years ago talking about how proud they'd be if their sons or brothers became suicide bombers. Maybe we should turn it over to Children's Aid.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on July 15, 2008, 18:15:56
You are forgetting that "life" in the US, is not 25 years, but life....period
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on July 15, 2008, 18:30:13
Greetings valued members and guests!

This 'video' was all over the Australian media this morning.

Along with Harper's views too  ;D


Regards,


OWDU
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: riggermade on July 15, 2008, 18:33:12
So.... anyone else have any interest in due process here, or am I the only one?

Did the guy he killed get his day?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on July 15, 2008, 18:44:47
Hello to all warm and fuzzy members and guests.

In my opinion, this person has deliberatly taken the life of an American citizen, and is being held and will be tried by Americans. Its an American legal process, none of our business.

Let them brunt the bills, and not our taxpayers. He can rot in their gaols, not Canadian ones.

Being Canadian, and a Canadian terrorist for that matter, does not give one special conditions.

Meanwhile this video is getting plenty of play in Australia today. As I said in on another thread, and so are Harper's views into it.

Happy days,

OWDU

 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on July 15, 2008, 18:53:19
Hello to all warm and fuzzy members and guests.

In my opinion, this person has deliberatly taken the life of an American citizen, and is being held and will be tried by Americans. Its an American legal process, none of our business.

lLt them brunt the bills, and not our taxpayers. He can rot in their gaols, not Canadian ones.

Being Canadian, and a Canadian terrorist for that matter, does not give one special conditions.

Meanwhile this video is getting plenty of play in Australia today. As I said in on another thread, and so are Harper's views into it.

Happy days,

OWDU

What's the Australian take on it....are they all teared up over the poor lad and ready to rip Harper a new one, or the opposite?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Matty Lowe on July 15, 2008, 19:27:21
First of all Khadr wasn't a child soldier; international law only recognizes those under the age of 15 as child soldiers. Khadr was 15-year-old when he was captured. I hope the traitor is sentenced to SuperMax and lives to be at least 90 years of age.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on July 15, 2008, 19:29:00
What's the Australian take on it....are they all teared up over the poor lad and ready to rip Harper a new one, or the opposite?

Don't know. Will advise  ;D
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: greyman_11 on July 15, 2008, 19:53:19
I hope they lock him up for good. I for one will never shed a tear for him.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: jollyjacktar on July 15, 2008, 20:24:14
Neil McKay, just checked my pocket.  Sorry, but I am all out of sympathy for him.  He has sown, so now it is time to reap the whirlwind.  He can rot for all I care.  To agree with his quote on the CBC site, "You don't care about me".  Too right, I don't!!!!! plus I won't apologise for my attitude either and that goes for the rest of his clan to boot.  And I would still feel the same if he was my Son, perhaps doubly so.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: N. McKay on July 15, 2008, 21:18:52
Did the guy he killed get his day?

In most western democracies when you're thought to have killed someone you're put on trial, and if convicted you're send to jail for what may turn out to be the rest of your life.  But being locked up for six years without a trial isn't on.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: FoverF on July 15, 2008, 21:50:38
15 YEARS OLD!! I can't emphasize that enough.

This boy's father put a gun into his hands at 15 years of age and sent him off to fight, and people are acting like the kid is Rudolph f***ing Hess. No one on this board would allow this kid to play contact hockey without a visor, and yet he's been held indefinitely without trial, has been subject to some form(s) of torture, and looks to be spending probably the rest of his life in a hole, whether or not he even gets his secret military tribunal. For something he did in grade 9.

That is nothing short of a disgrace.

I don't support or encourage what he did, and I'm not recommending that my 13 year old brother fly off to Afghanistan and shoot at western soldiers. I'm not vouching for this guy's character, and I'm not saying that he can rejoin society as a contributing member. I also don't expect many on this board to have deep sympathy for him, given that he was actively trying to kill people in your line of work.

But I'll be damned before I advocate putting a 15 year old BOY in solitary confinement until he DIES. Especially when his 'war crime' is being in a firefight with occupying military forces without wearing a uniform. Ernst Kaltenbrunner was a war criminal. Radovan Karadzic is a war criminal. Khadr was a brainwashed junior high kid. If we ever catch Karadzic, how many nights do you think he'll have to sleep in the open on a cement pad in a chicken wire enclosure? 

If Alberta was overrun by an invading army of Islamic fundamentalists, intent on imposing the laws of their religion, and my father put a gun in my hands at 15 and told me to fight back, I probably would have done it in a heartbeat. Even if I wasn't living in Alberta at the time. You can all tear a strip up one side of me and down the other, but if I was in this kid's shoes, I probably would have done the exact same thing.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: MedKAWD on July 15, 2008, 22:20:02
Ok, heres my controversial two cents.

I think that the international laws on underage offenders are a bit silly, and here is why.  It makes sense to have these laws in Countries where childhood is structured and mostly all kids develop the same way.  Which is to say you are born, grow up go to school, graduate, and then go to post-secondary, work, or maybe even the military.  Like Canada for instance, these laws make sense.

In other parts of the world, kids are born, grow up and then learn how to kill people.  They learn how to shoot guns, fight battles, and throw grenades at an early age.  I mean I understand what these laws try to do but age is nothing more than a physical measurement.  Childhood takes on a much different meaning in other parts of the world.  Not too mention how short it can be in some places.  If this young man had the skills, knowledge, and desire to kill an American Soldier, I believe he should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.  His Dad should go away too in my opinion, but the fact that his father took him over there does not change the fact that he made the conscious decision to take a life.

I also believe that the only reason this story is under the microscope is because he is Canadian National.  And people look at this like "wow we don't treat Canadians this way."  Strange how a piece of paper with your birthplace on it can cause so much controversy.  I am more than anything curious to know how this young man was raised.  Who he was taught to respect, what countries ideals he learned to follow, etc etc.  That would give a better picture on his moral state when he committed the act itself.  So many unanswered questions...

Cheers, Kyle.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Kaleigh72 on July 15, 2008, 22:37:33
[/i] Especially when his 'war crime' is being in a firefight with occupying military forces without wearing a uniform.

I'm sorry but when did we become a country with an occupying military presence??? Oh that's right were not!  He was not in Canada protecting himself, he went over there with his father to fight the infidels.  All he would have needed to say was help I don't want to do this, and someone would have given him aid.  But he did not behave like a Canadian would or should behave. Now that it is convenient to be Canadian he is trying (as well as his lawyers) to play that card.  Was he raised in Canada? Did he not have access to the Canadian school system? He should have known on some level of what he was doing was wrong. If he had not been injured and caught do you think he would be claiming what a proud Canadian he is? I certainly don't.

Kaleigh
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on July 15, 2008, 22:54:08


That is nothing short of a disgrace.



Dear Mr Fover,

I don't think so, but why don't you tell that to the family of the soldier killed.

How anyone can have pity for a terrorist who thrives on our own blood, I will never understand.

Its really none of our business how the US deals with murdering terrorists who they have caught killing their soldiers.

Even the Canadian PM approves with this terrorist in question.

In their culture they also put 15 yr old boys in charge of battalions of grown men. They do not have the same values and morales as us, but I guess you have to live it to comprehend that.

Too bad they did not finish him on the battlefield, but thats hindsight, and thats always 20/20.

Thankyou for your time to post your view.

Happy days,

OWDU
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: TheHead on July 15, 2008, 22:59:31
If this kid did throw the grenade that killed that American Medic he needs to be tried and punished.   He's only been accused though so I'm not going to pass judgment till he is tried.    It's going to be a bad day if this kid is found to not have killed that Man.   Combat is an amazing experience and it does weird things to mind and memory. 

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: stegner on July 15, 2008, 23:23:35
Guess what no one on this site was there when this event happened so we really don't know what the heck happened.  We are speculating at best.   However,  I think most members would agree that were they to screw up in the course of the military careers that they would be entitled to due process.           
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Haggis on July 15, 2008, 23:30:10
Imagine, for a minute, that this kid had been freed into Canada in 2004 or so.  Now imagine, for a minute, that he'd linked up with the accused terroists in Toronto prior to 2006 and passed on his AQ acquired combat/teerorist/counterintelligence skills and knowledge.

Now imagine him throwing grenades in the House of Commons, with mom and sis in the visitors gallery cheering him on.

He's just fine right where he is.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: stegner on July 15, 2008, 23:39:40
Wow Haggis that's lots of speculation.   It ignores the fact the Toronto Cell was under constant CSIS, police and even DND surveillance and that the state would have not been monitoring Khadr after his release.  The Toronto Cell did not need a 15 year old teaching them-they had there own trainers, including a former CF reservists (who was also a double agents).  I can tell you have not been to Parliament recently as you seem completely unaware of the security there.  He should be punished for crimes if he is found guilty not for nonsensical theories.     
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on July 15, 2008, 23:58:21
Guess what no one on this site was there when this event happened so we really don't know what the heck happened.  We are speculating at best.   However,  I think most members would agree that were they to screw up in the course of the military careers that they would be entitled to due process.           

Dear Sir,

So you would rather have our tax dollars spent on this terrorist, who would soon kill you as much as me.

He killed a US soldier, was captured by the US, and is in US custody. Its really none of our business.

Its an American situation, in which is being treated like all others, who are detained in Cuba. he is getting no special treatment.

Thanking you for your opinion,

Happy days,

OWDU
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Haggis on July 15, 2008, 23:59:34
Wow Haggis that's lots of speculation.

Yep, sure is, isn't it?  No worse than the Globe and Mail, though.

It ignores the fact the Toronto Cell was under constant CSIS, police and even DND surveillance and that the state would have not been monitoring Khadr after his release. 

DND surveillance... really???  I never saw that memo.

The Toronto Cell did not need a 15 year old teaching them-they had there own trainers, including a former CF reservists (who was also a double agents). 

Apparently they needed all the help they could get. They got caught.

I can tell you have not been to Parliament recently as you seem completely unaware of the security there.
 

Yes, I have.  In fact I run on and past Parliament Hill quite often during PT.  Now I ask you:  is that security not in response to this plot?

He should be punished for crimes if he is found guilty not for nonsensical theories. 

"Nonsensical" is quite an adjective to ascribe to my theories which are, in fact, no wilder than some of those postulated by the MSM regarding Bush's GWOT and our "ineffective" role in it.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: tomahawk6 on July 16, 2008, 00:41:43
In WW2 and conflicts since then if you were a POW were you released after a set number of years ? Nope. Prisoners werent released until the war ended. Being a POW has no limitation on how long you are held. While these terrorists arent POW's they are being treated as such.Those that have been released have gone back to rejoin the fight. These are dangerous people who wont quit until they are dead. This is something people dont understand. The left wants people to think that a bunch of farmers were shipped off to Gitmo. Frankly if it werent important to get information from these guys I would favor a take no prisoners approach to the war on terror.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Kilo_302 on July 16, 2008, 01:05:43
He was 13 when he entered a terrorist training camp, 15 when he was wounded and allegedly killed a US soldier. He was 16 when the video was shot. Holding him in solitary at Gitmo makes no sense, and is illegal by any international definition.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on July 16, 2008, 01:12:39
So?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: abo on July 16, 2008, 03:49:43
In WW2 and conflicts since then if you were a POW were you released after a set number of years ? Nope. Prisoners werent released until the war ended. Being a POW has no limitation on how long you are held. While these terrorists arent POW's they are being treated as such.Those that have been released have gone back to rejoin the fight. These are dangerous people who wont quit until they are dead. This is something people dont understand. The left wants people to think that a bunch of farmers were shipped off to Gitmo. Frankly if it werent important to get information from these guys I would favor a take no prisoners approach to the war on terror.

Uh.. a POW is only required to provide date of birth, rank and serial number in accord with the Geneva conventions. These guys aren't getting POW treatment, if they were it wouldn't be an issue, Omar would have been put in a camp with his peers and he'd be stuck there until someone negotiated for his release or the war came to an end.

Western nations have traditionally treated POWS very well since it opens the door for reciprocal treatment of our own troops. Not to mention the ethics of it. But when we label people terrorist and then throw them in places like Gitmo, were giving up the moral high ground.

In fairness organizations like Al-Qaeda are the ones who started it, they do the exact same thing they're just more degenerate about it. They label us infidels then chop off our heads.

But its in our best interests to treat these guys like POWS or guerrillas, then at least we can demand the same treatment for our own boys, god forbid they ever end up in such a circumstance.  :-\
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: FoverF on July 16, 2008, 05:35:56
Now, I have to agree with Wesley that this IS essentially an "American" problem. I'm not really interested that this kid is a Canadian citizen, or Pakistani, or Syrian, or Martian. It was an American that got killed, they caught the alleged killer, he's in their custody, it essentially IS an American matter. But that doesn't mean I have to like what they're doing, and I'm still entitled to object to it in the most thorough terms.

I know sometimes boys have to become men in an awful hurry. But you can't say on one hand that he's a Canadian citizen who enjoyed all the benfits of our enlightened society, and is therefore a traitor, then on the other hand say he's fully responsible for his actions because he's a rough and ready mountain kid from Pakistan, responsible as a man at age 15. The answer as always lies somewhere in between, but somewhere in between is no grounds for sentancing a junior high kid to life in prison.

My main problems with this case are these:
1) I don't think he's a war criminal. -there are real war criminals out there, and this kid isn't one of them. This is just BS to justify his extra-judicial punishment. 
2) I don't think he was a terrorist. - a terrorist uses violence and/or the threat of violence against civilian targets, with the intention of drawing public attention towards their political objectives. Khadr attacked armed military pers who were deployed on combat ops. He may have associated with terrorists in some capacity, but that's for a fair and legitimate trial to sort out.
3) He is being treated worse than either a war criminal, or a terrorist.- both of these groups recieve timely trials. They are also kept in facilities that operate within the law, rather than facilities who only exist for the purposes of subverting the law.
4) He was a minor at the time of the offence. - seriously people, this kid was pulled out of middle school and sent to war.
5) He is being denied basic human rights, not to mention his rights as a Canadian. - people here say he is a traitor, who has renounced his Canadian citizenship, and all rights associated. I say them's aweful big words about someone who has never been allowed to set foot in a courtroom, and who has never been tried or found guilty of anything.
6) He will never get a fair trial. - ever. I don't like that. Even if he is a total dick, and deserves everything he's got and will get. He should still get a trial. It's called the rule of law. It's a good thing.

Omar Khadr spent half his life growing up with a family that is completely insane. Then his family sent him to die for Allah. Then he got shot, and he's spent the last six years in a chicken wire cage being beaten, sleep deprived, and interrogated. In my ideal hippy-loving world where everyone eats rainbows and shits butterflies, this unbelievably damaged individual would at least get a fair shake at a trial before we lock him in a cell for the rest of his natural life.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on July 16, 2008, 06:15:42
In my ideal hippy-loving world where everyone eats rainbows and shits butterflies.....


Dear Sir,

Thankyou for your humble patience in responding to my post.

Your quote pretty much sums it up, doesn't it.

I don't know where you get your defintion of terrorism from, but in the real world, terrorists don't descriminate between civilian and military targets. Anything is game. Anything to create instability, mayhem, and panic. In regards to how you define terrorism, then what did I get caught up in Iraq in?

I don't think his family was insane, thats just his family's beliefs, and there is millions to take his place worldwide, yes many other 'paper' Canadians at home who would fill his shoes to slit my throat, all in the blink of a fat lady's eye.

Please stay bound in, and wrapped up in cotton wool, in your hippie world with those rose coloured glasses on, you'll be safe there.

Peace, live long and prosper ole chum.

OWDU
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: meni0n on July 16, 2008, 07:36:17
FoverF,

Canadian rights stop right at the border of Canada. Once you leave Canada, you are at the mercy of the judicial system of the country you are in. Unless you have actual proof he was in a chicken cage being beaten or sleep deprived everyday of his stay in Guantanamo, then it's just rumour and hearsay. At 15, I knew the right from wrong and sure as hell knew the consequences if I killed someone. Going over to a country not of your origin, not wearing any uniform and killing someone, let alone a soldier will have serious consequences. He is lucky the Afghans didn't want to try him and send him to an Afghan prison, as he commited crimes in their country. He would have been wishing he was where he is now. He is breathing, eating and treated well. What human rights are being violated here? Considering his is accused of murder.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Thucydides on July 16, 2008, 09:08:20
Uh.. a POW is only required to provide date of birth, rank and serial number in accord with the Geneva conventions. These guys aren't getting POW treatment, if they were it wouldn't be an issue, Omar would have been put in a camp with his peers and he'd be stuck there until someone negotiated for his release or the war came to an end.

Western nations have traditionally treated POWS very well since it opens the door for reciprocal treatment of our own troops. Not to mention the ethics of it. But when we label people terrorist and then throw them in places like Gitmo, were giving up the moral high ground.

In fairness organizations like Al-Qaeda are the ones who started it, they do the exact same thing they're just more degenerate about it. They label us infidels then chop off our heads.

But its in our best interests to treat these guys like POWS or guerrillas, then at least we can demand the same treatment for our own boys, god forbid they ever end up in such a circumstance.  :-\

I suggest people who think this way do a bit of research.

POW's are tightly defined by the Geneva convention (any version), and the prisoners in Gitmo do not fit the definition of POW in any way shape or form. (Go on, Google it; I'll wait).

As for "demanding the same treatment for our boys", you only have to look at the fate of anyone; local, civilian, foreign contractor, foreign diplomat or military; who comes under the control of the Jihadis to realize how far from reality that sort of demand is. A swift death is about the best they can hope for, the more likely fate is to star in a snuff video for Al Jezzera or one of the thousands of Jihadi websites that pollute the Internet. We were "treated" to some Taliban propaganda videos while at KAF, so I saw what "they" consider to be "proper" treatment of people in their power.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: N. McKay on July 16, 2008, 09:20:53
Canadian rights stop right at the border of Canada. Once you leave Canada, you are at the mercy of the judicial system of the country you are in.

That's true.  However, the United States judicial system has, up to now, operated along lines similar to ours in that an accused person is tried in court without an unreasonable delay, and not simply thrown in jail.

Quote
What human rights are being violated here? Considering his is accused of murder.

The right to due process of the law -- a fair and speedy trial.  Accused murderers have that right in every civilized country on the planet, including the United States.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: 2 Cdo on July 16, 2008, 09:22:51
I am sure they won't release the entire video.  They will go through it looking for anything "bad" that they can piece together to make it look like the poor little lad is being treated extremely bad and that he only gave his answers under extreme distress and threat of life. Personally I am beginning to think the idea of take no prisoners is sounding better and better everyday.

5 to 10 minutes out of a 8 hour tape showing him whining and crying. ::) Boo f*cking hoo. Also seen Dallaire on the news this morning with his usual rhetoric and nonsense. I find it hard to believe that useless oxygen thief was ever a leader of soldiers.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: 2 Cdo on July 16, 2008, 09:27:32
Everyone who wants Khadr released always mentions that he was a Canadian citizen. Nobody ever mentions that the family has dual citizenship in some Arabic country (I honestly can't remember which one) and frequently travelled on the other passport. Maybe we should release him back to the other country whose passport was used to travel to terrorist training camps.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: meni0n on July 16, 2008, 09:34:34
That's true.  However, the United States judicial system has, up to now, operated along lines similar to ours in that an accused person is tried in court without an unreasonable delay, and not simply thrown in jail.

The right to due process of the law -- a fair and speedy trial.  Accused murderers have that right in every civilized country on the planet, including the United States.

He has not been jailed yet, he is awaiting trial. There has been thousands of people at the detention facility, which takes time to process. Legal proceedings have been dragged out but they started a while ago. His lawyers could have filed to dismiss charges on the grounds you mentioned so that point is moot. Would you prefer he would have stayed and be tried in the original country where he commited the crime or do you believe he's better off where he is right now?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: E.R. Campbell on July 16, 2008, 09:48:49
First: while I share the general lack of sympathy for young Khadr and his family, both FoverF  and Neil McKay  raise important and valid points about basic civil/human rights and what I see as a worrisome lack of respect for those rights in the USA, right now.

Our rights only matter to the extent that we are willing to defend them for the most wretched and despised in our society. If Khadr's rights can be violated, for whatever reason, then ours are worthless.

With regard to consular access: here (http://travel.state.gov/law/consular/consular_737.html#summary) are the US rules - it appears that the US is disobeying its own rules.

Second: Mods - could this thread (which has little to do with Military Current Affairs & News, be merged with the Khadr thread in the Canadian Politics section (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,2861.615.html#lastPost), please?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on July 16, 2008, 09:49:30
Everyone who wants Khadr released always mentions that he was a Canadian citizen. Nobody ever mentions that the family has dual citizenship in some Arabic country (I honestly can't remember which one) and frequently travelled on the other passport. Maybe we should release him back to the other country whose passport was used to travel to terrorist training camps.

During the Khadr family interview a couple of years ago it was mentioned that they have serially have had to have their passports replaced 5 times because they were "lost"....and we don't even track who comes into the country.....
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: 2 Cdo on July 16, 2008, 10:03:16
During the Khadr family interview a couple of years ago it was mentioned that they have serially have had to have their passports replaced 5 times because they were "lost"....and we don't even track who comes into the country.....

I'm of the opinion that losing your passport once should involve an extremely lengthy interview with either the RCMP or CSIS. "Losing" it again should be dealt with by no further issue of a passport. Finding the "lost" passport in the possession of some undesirable trying to enter the country should result in jail time for both parties. Lastly, the Khadr family complete should be sent to some ******* anywhere outside of Canada never to set foot in our country ever again!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: tomahawk6 on July 16, 2008, 10:11:12
First: while I share the general lack of sympathy for young Khadr and his family, both FoverF  and Neil McKay  raise important and valid points about basic civil/human rights and what I see as a worrisome lack of respect for those rights in the USA, right now.

Our rights only matter to the extent that we are willing to defend them for the most wretched and despised in our society. If Khadr's rights can be violated, for whatever reason, then ours are worthless.

With regard to consular access: here (http://travel.state.gov/law/consular/consular_737.html#summary) are the US rules - it appears that the US is disobeying its own rules.

Second: Mods - could this thread (which has little to do with Military Current Affairs & News, be merged with the Khadr thread in the Canadian Politics section (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,2861.615.html#lastPost), please?

According to the video he had consular access. What rights are being violated ? He gets three meals a day. He is in jail after all after attacking US troops he was shot and seriously wounded,this makes him an enemy combatant. Same as Johnny Lindh who as a US citizen got a 20 year sentence. All prisoners at Gitmo get the same basic rights.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: CountDC on July 16, 2008, 10:44:18
15 YEARS OLD!! I can't emphasize that enough.

This boy's father put a gun into his hands at 15 years of age and sent him off to fight, and people are acting like the kid is Rudolph f***ing Hess. No one on this board would allow this kid to play contact hockey without a visor, and yet he's been held indefinitely without trial, has been subject to some form(s) of torture, and looks to be spending probably the rest of his life in a hole, whether or not he even gets his secret military tribunal. For something he did in grade 9.

That is nothing short of a disgrace.

I don't support or encourage what he did, and I'm not recommending that my 13 year old brother fly off to Afghanistan and shoot at western soldiers. I'm not vouching for this guy's character, and I'm not saying that he can rejoin society as a contributing member. I also don't expect many on this board to have deep sympathy for him, given that he was actively trying to kill people in your line of work.

But I'll be damned before I advocate putting a 15 year old BOY in solitary confinement until he DIES. Especially when his 'war crime' is being in a firefight with occupying military forces without wearing a uniform. Ernst Kaltenbrunner was a war criminal. Radovan Karadzic is a war criminal. Khadr was a brainwashed junior high kid. If we ever catch Karadzic, how many nights do you think he'll have to sleep in the open on a cement pad in a chicken wire enclosure? 

If Alberta was overrun by an invading army of Islamic fundamentalists, intent on imposing the laws of their religion, and my father put a gun in my hands at 15 and told me to fight back, I probably would have done it in a heartbeat. Even if I wasn't living in Alberta at the time. You can all tear a strip up one side of me and down the other, but if I was in this kid's shoes, I probably would have done the exact same thing.

 Stop trying to place our values and believes on this.  In his world he was not a boy - he was a man and a soldier out to prove to his father, family, friends, etc that he was one. He made the choice as a man to go to this other country he considered more important than Canada and fight. He was wearing the uniform of the force he joined - the everyday clothes that allow them to run and blend in with the locals. He made his choice as a man now he should live with it - not Canada. I am tired of people going outside Canada, making choices that get them into trouble and then crying for the Government to bail them out. This is a matter for the US and Afghan government to resolve not Canada.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: CountDC on July 16, 2008, 10:51:54
Uh.. a POW is only required to provide date of birth, rank and serial number in accord with the Geneva conventions. These guys aren't getting POW treatment, if they were it wouldn't be an issue, Omar would have been put in a camp with his peers and he'd be stuck there until someone negotiated for his release or the war came to an end.

Western nations have traditionally treated POWS very well since it opens the door for reciprocal treatment of our own troops. Not to mention the ethics of it. But when we label people terrorist and then throw them in places like Gitmo, were giving up the moral high ground.

In fairness organizations like Al-Qaeda are the ones who started it, they do the exact same thing they're just more degenerate about it. They label us infidels then chop off our heads.

But its in our best interests to treat these guys like POWS or guerrillas, then at least we can demand the same treatment for our own boys, god forbid they ever end up in such a circumstance.  :-\

Where is the WE in this - last I saw this was an AMERICAN thing not CANADIAN. We as Canadians do treat our POW's good - a lot better than they treat us. 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: E.R. Campbell on July 16, 2008, 11:08:04
According to the video he had consular access. What rights are being violated ? He gets three meals a day. He is in jail after all after attacking US troops he was shot and seriously wounded,this makes him an enemy combatant. Same as Johnny Lindh who as a US citizen got a 20 year sentence. All prisoners at Gitmo get the same basic rights.

Not as I understand it - based upon what I have read/heard over the past couple of days. And I would be very happy to be corrected.

It appears (and those appearances may be Canadian officials covering their asses) consular access was denied. The DFAIT consular official who visited Khadr (the fellow who is heard on tape) was allowed in because he was listed as an intelligence officer. I hope that's wrong but, on the surface, it looks like the US denied consular access - contrary to its own rules.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: E.R. Campbell on July 16, 2008, 11:13:02
By the way, the correct course of action for Canada is:

1. Await the outcome of the current legal process; and

2. Assuming Khadr is found guilty and sentenced to prison, repatriate him to a Canadian prison IAW the existing Canada/US agreement; or

3. If he is acquitted, allow him to return to Canada - he is, after all, a Canadian citizen; or

4. If he is convicted on some charges, sentenced, and then charged again with variations of the charges on which he was not convicted: demand his return to Canada to serve out his existing sentences.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: meni0n on July 16, 2008, 11:33:16
Why should he serve his time here when he is convicted over there? Let him serve it there.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: N. McKay on July 16, 2008, 11:39:50
He has not been jailed yet,

He has been placed in some form of secure custody, whether we call it a jail, a prison, a camp, or a facility.  I don't think the name matters much for the purpose of this discussion.

Quote
he is awaiting trial.  There has been thousands of people at the detention facility, which takes time to process.   Legal proceedings have been dragged out but they started a while ago.

Six years, we're talking about.  There is an obligation on the part of the US justice system to move with a certain amount of despatch, whatever number of people there are to process.

Quote
Would you prefer he would have stayed and be tried in the original country where he commited the crime or do you believe he's better off where he is right now?

That's a very poor argument.  However much better off he is now, he's still being treated in a way that is inconsistent with the norms of a western justice system.  The fact that some countries have terrible justice systems (or none at all) does not justify a developed country ignoring any of its own long-standing principles.

What rights are being violated ? He gets three meals a day. He is in jail after all after attacking US troops he was shot and seriously wounded,this makes him an enemy combatant. Same as Johnny Lindh who as a US citizen got a 20 year sentence. All prisoners at Gitmo get the same basic rights.

What's different is that he's had no sentence because he hasn't been tried, for anything.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Niteshade on July 16, 2008, 11:46:04
I have to disagree.

Quote
1. Await the outcome of the current legal process; and
Agreed.

Quote
2. Assuming Khadr is found guilty and sentenced to prison, repatriate him to a Canadian prison IAW the existing Canada/US agreement; or
If he is guilty, he should spend time in a US prison or more appropriately in an Afghani prison as that is where is "crimes" where committed. I do not support Canada shacking this kid up when he did not break the law on our soil. Why should taxpayers have to pay for his incarceration?

Quote
3. If he is acquitted, allow him to return to Canada - he is, after all, a Canadian citizen; or
Certainly. The charter of rights and freedom's permits a person with Canadian Citizenship to be allowed to come and go from our borders.

Quote
4. If he is convicted on some charges, sentenced, and then charged again with variations of the charges on which he was not convicted: demand his return to Canada to serve out his existing sentences.

I disagree - he needs to sort out any and all legal problems he has with other countries prior to coming here. Canada is not a safe haven for terrorists while they await foreign charges.

As a final note, I am not a fan of this kid or his family being allowed to stay here despite their ties to terrorist support.

Nites
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: rn_sapper on July 16, 2008, 11:46:46
If found guilty, keep him at GITMO or send him to a US prison. I am sure the criminal element and strangly very patriotic inmates at a federal pen would love to say hi to him >:D.

As far as I am concerned, he is Persona non Grata. His passport should be revoked.

Now, what if he is found not-guilty..... well then deport him back to Afganistan. I am sure the "legal" system would be happy to take care of him for us.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Rodahn on July 16, 2008, 11:52:39
Just a couple of questions for all of the posters here,

1. How many of you witnessed the accused of throwing said grenade, that he is accused of?

2. Do you know for a fact that he was not coerced or under duress when the incident happened?

To the best of my knowledge nobody here can answer either yea, or nay to either. Everything else is simply speculation on our part.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Sine Pari on July 16, 2008, 11:58:06
How convenient that Omar Khadr wants protection from the same system he set out to fight.

Lest we forget, SFC Christopher J. Speer, September 9, 1973 - August 7, 2002
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: RecDiver on July 16, 2008, 12:07:22
In all honesty I do not care if anyone saw him throw it or not or that he was coerced or tricked or whatever. He was caught in a terrorist war zone. Period. He was not picked up in downtown Toronto. He was in a place where he should not have been and he now has to live its consequences.

Btw, we seem to be losing the sight of the fact that this whole Kadr family is playing the country like a violin. They live on our medical and humanitarian funds (with the compliments of my hard earned tax dollars) and keep on cursing us Canadians.

Any party who can pass a special law to revoke the Citizenships of these groups of folks will have my forver support.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: meni0n on July 16, 2008, 12:14:39
Neil, he is being tried right now. His lawyers have been filing motions for dismissal and appeals for more than a year now. Just because you don't see a trial doesn't mean there isn't a legal battle going on. Secondly, if due process have been violated then his lawyers can file appropriate legal documents for that. He is still in detention, he gets to eat well and gets medical attention, contrary as to what he whines about.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bograt on July 16, 2008, 12:18:47
Yesterday, I politely interupted a conversation between two ladies standing in line at the Walmart. They were talking about the awful situation this individual was enduring. I said, "Excuse my interuption ladies, I would like to kindly remind you that Mr. Khadr would have cut your head off six years ago for being an infidel."

  
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Matty Lowe on July 16, 2008, 12:39:28
It's a shame we will never see him cry as he walks up to the hangman's scaffold.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 16, 2008, 12:44:32
What happens if, say, a Canadian commits a crime in the UAE for some strange reason. Do they get sent back to Canada or do they serve time in their prison?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Shec on July 16, 2008, 12:54:15
As if to summarize the majority opinion over the 46 pages on this thread poor misguided little Omar himself said:

"You don't care about me "

I compliment you on your succinct and lucid assessment young man.


Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: visitor on July 16, 2008, 14:09:11
I viewed Khadr in the  videotape and instantly wondered "where have I seen that behavior before?" and then it came to me.  There are some populations of middle east and south Asian  families who have moved to No. America that  coddle their kids and have virtually no expectations  of them.  As  children (and especially the boys),  when a teacher asks them to do anything that is remotely challenging, like doing a puzzle, or buttoning their own coat, they often do the EXACT same thing Khadr is doing:  complaining their hand hurts, or you don't like them,  or something.  He even uses the EXACT same facial expressions.  Then the parents whisk them away, cuddlng them and  reinforcing their whines  and learned helplessness.   North American and European kids are not generally treated like that. (These are gross generalizations, mind you.)  When they grow up, they continue to have this "poor me" mentality whenever they  do not get what they want. It is really a shame that this cultural context is not a part of how most Canadians are thinking about this videotape. Khadr's behavior says more to me about how he responds to expectations, than to what the questioner is saying. A prosecuting lawyer would do well to get some video tape of  young kids  acting  like him when they are asked to do their homework or something and the comparison in court would be very powerful.
 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Kilo_302 on July 16, 2008, 14:17:08
You are comparing incarceration and sleep deprivation as well as other stress techniques with a  child not being able to complete a puzzle or buttoning a coat. Either your frame of reference is extremely skewed (ie you found it so hard as a child to button a coat that you repeatedly chanted "kill me" when left alone), or you simply have zero empathy and think you could breeze through 5 years + at Gitmo, whatever the crime.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hamish Seggie on July 16, 2008, 14:21:39
Mr. Khadr should be treated as a child soldier, as he was only 16 at the time.
I watched with some amusement this morning at Senator Dallaire berating the PM for the lack of action the government has taken on behalf of Omar Khadr. Were the Liberals not in power at some time in the last five years?
As for young Omar, let's bring the poor young lad home. Then pack him and his terrorist family up and deport them, ASP.

My son is about the same age as Mr. Khadr, and he's over there doing what needs to be done.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Blindspot on July 16, 2008, 15:08:56
You are comparing incarceration and sleep deprivation as well as other stress techniques with a  child not being able to complete a puzzle or buttoning a coat. Either your frame of reference is extremely skewed (ie you found it so hard as a child to button a coat that you repeatedly chanted "kill me" when left alone), or you simply have zero empathy and think you could breeze through 5 years + at Gitmo, whatever the crime.


Sleep deprivation, stress techniques... Sounds like exam week. Or worse, first-time parents. Where's the blood? Where's the scars? Bruises? Gimme a break.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: NL_engineer on July 16, 2008, 15:12:00
It's a shame we will never see him cry as he walks up to the hangman's scaffold.

Well I think he should be trilled in Texas.  Express line for him, and no more of the Canadian media saying what a poor boy.




IMO our justice system would just let him go  ::)  They don't want to look bad in the court of public opinion  ::)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: 2 Cdo on July 16, 2008, 15:14:41
Sleep deprivation, stress techniques... Sounds like exam week. Or worse, first-time parents. Where's the blood? Where's the scars? Bruises? Gimme a break.

Using his baseline as a reference I am going to sue the Canadian government and the Canadian Forces for "torturing" me during my basic training, every exercise I was on and every tour I was on. ::)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hamish Seggie on July 16, 2008, 15:19:32
Sleep deprivation? Stress techniques? Sounds like TQ 6B Infantry......and a few other things too.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: FoverF on July 16, 2008, 15:26:54
Yeah, basic, six years in Gitmo, same diff...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Kilo_302 on July 16, 2008, 15:40:57
It boggles the mind to think that some would actually compare being a prisoner at Guantanamo for 6 years with a basic training course lasting what, all of 3-4 months? The prisoners at Gitmo have no idea if or when they will be released. They are subject to sleep deprivation and water boarding, and are kept in isolation for much of the time. No comparison.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: visitor on July 16, 2008, 16:04:32
It is impossible to address all factors in a small post. I  was not addressing the issue of Khadr as a child soldier or anything else he might have experienced that impacts on his case.  I was merely observing that the behavior and demeanor of Khadr  IN THE VIDEO is  identical to what  some children of his culture,  exhibit when under more innocuous forms of stress. Parents will then cuddle the child and take him away from the "mean" teacher who is trying to "torture" him by forcing him to do a puzzle. My point was,  using his behavior in the video as "proof" that he  has been tortured, is not reliable evidence, when many, many young boys of his culture behave the same way for far less  demanding expectations. We need better evidence  and to interpret his behavior within a cultural context.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 16, 2008, 16:04:53
Pile on oldsoldier for making a joke!

Me first!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Niteshade on July 16, 2008, 16:17:01
Who cares about this punk kid.

6 years ago, just prior to his arrest, This kid would shoot/maim/kill any of us. His family are a large group of taliban supporters. He has been raised to think this is acceptable behavior, and as such followed in their footsteps. Even though he was 15 years old he was old enough to know killing is wrong.

Also, this "woe is me" garbage is a joke. He just doesn't like the hand he has been given as a result of his actions. I bet you he was expecting to be a martyr before imprisonment.

Sleep deprivation is mild in comparison to the trauma/pain he caused others.

Nites
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hamish Seggie on July 16, 2008, 16:22:23
I wonder if some of you turned your sense of humour in. Can we not make jokes? Or is that not politically correct?

Tell you how I really feel.

Its too bad that a few more Taliban weren't killed at the time Khadr was taken......get my drift?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 16, 2008, 16:29:56
I wonder if some of you turned your sense of humour in. Can we not make jokes? Or is that not politically correct?

Tell you how I really feel.

Its too bad that a few more Taliban weren't killed at the time Khadr was taken......get my drift?

I caught it and that's all that matters OldSolduer :)

I don't think many people disagree that what this crap head did was wrong.(Well some of you had some wacked out theories but you admit you live in a rainbow and butterfly filled world)

 His dip crap parents put him in a bad place and he has them to thank for where he is now.  Most of the arguments seem to be over legal mumbo jumbo. Whats a war criminal, whats a POW, whats a combatant.
Looks to me like his lawyers are trying to use his Canadian citizenship as a get out of jail free card. That's not on.  He attacked and killed our allies. He's bad. He should be punished, We all agree to that right?
Give him to the host nation to punish. Good luck son.
If his family has ties to terrorists deport them.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: North Star on July 16, 2008, 16:36:02
I though the best part was his complaint that his eyes and feet didn't work when clearly they did.

To me, he exhibits the same kinds of behaviours that a teen exhibits when hauled in front of an authority figure for a serious issue (ei - a young offender during an interview with a detective). I don't think it really shows any evidence of "torture". He is certainly messed up and has issues with his parents - the urinating on photographs shows that (as for his being used as a mop for urine and that as "torture", I think making him clean up his own mess is quite justified).

Ultimately, I wouldn't mind if the government asked for him to be repatriated. But as a citizen, I want iron-clad guarantees:

1) He be detained on arrival;
2) He not be permitted contact with his family;
3) He be forced to undergo psychiatric treatment (de-programming) for the years of Al-Q stuff he was subjected to; and
4) Upon release, he be subjected to monitoring for a reasonable period.

Problem is, if he's repatriated before he is found guilty of anything, we can't do any of that. I'm not even sure if fighting for an enemy of Canada (and even if there is such a definition in this age) is a criminal offense that a minor can be charged with and detained for. That's why he has to stay at Guantanamo and face a military tribunal: he needs to be found guilty of something before we can take him back under "positive control" and get him the treatment he needs to mitigate the risk to the public.

The solution to this issue in the future is to make it a criminal offense to fight for an enemy of an ally of Canada. I think Treason isn't used because of narrow legal interpretations that have been applied since the Second World War. Other legislation may need to be enacted to allow the state to detain child-soldiers on arrival back in Canada to determine their risk-level to the public. Given the state can detain alledged terrorists for ridiculously long periods of time without trial, it's not asking for much.

This issue has come up again and again. Scumbags from the Balkans shot at us, and then returned to the comfort of Mississauga and Edmonton without reprecussion. It's about time we did something about it. Khadr should be used as a rallying point for people concerned about how multiculturalism appears to be trumping loyalty to Canada, and the springboard for further thought on how to deal with these complex issues.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Shec on July 16, 2008, 16:46:57

The solution to this issue in the future is to make it a criminal offense to fight for an enemy of an ally of Canada. I think Treason isn't used because of narrow legal interpretations that have been applied since the Second World War. Other legislation may need to be enacted to allow the state to detain child-soldiers on arrival back in Canada to determine their risk-level to the public. Given the state can detain alledged terrorists for ridiculously long periods of time without trial, it's not asking for much.

This issue has come up again and again. Scumbags from the Balkans shot at us, and then returned to the comfort of Mississauga and Edmonton without reprecussion. It's about time we did something about it. Khadr should be used as a rallying point for people concerned about how multiculturalism appears to be trumping loyalty to Canada, and the springboard for further thought on how to deal with these complex issues.

No  need to re-invent the wheel. Simply amend to toughen up and throw the Foreign Enlistment Act at 'em:

"Offence to enlist with a foreign state at war with a friendly state

3. Any person who, being a Canadian national, within or outside Canada, voluntarily accepts or agrees to accept any commission or engagement in the armed forces of any foreign state at war with any friendly foreign state or, whether a Canadian national or not, within Canada, induces any other person to accept or agree to accept any commission or engagement in any such armed forces is guilty of an offence.

R.S., c. F-29, s. 3."

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/F-28/index.html
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: North Star on July 16, 2008, 16:51:55
Lol..my bad Shec...I used an old Criminal Code and didn't even think to look elsewhere!

Yes, an amendment allowing a psychiatric evaluation of involuntary child-soldiers would be well worth adding.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Teeps74 on July 16, 2008, 16:56:13
It boggles the mind to think that some would actually compare being a prisoner at Guantanamo for 6 years with a basic training course lasting what, all of 3-4 months? The prisoners at Gitmo have no idea if or when they will be released. They are subject to sleep deprivation and water boarding, and are kept in isolation for much of the time. No comparison.

Two points.

First, TQ 6B is not, I say again, not a basioc course. It's full name of the time was TQ (QL) SIX BRAVO INFANTRY PLATOON SECOND IN COMMAND COURSE.

Second. Anyone who has actually taken this course would probably make the same tongue in cheek comment. Sleep depravation, stress positions, "death marches". Hey, got the t-shirt, been there done that.

The course is now known as DP3B INF PL2IC CRSE.

Now, I am no fan of the Khadr's. I think they are a family of Canadians of convience, and traitors. They should be tried, jailed and then deported.

Having said that, we live in a society of laws, rights, and justice. This is what makes our society, the better society then the one they envision for us.

Following this, the kid is innocent until proven guilty. Even if he is guilty, he is a product of his up-bringing from his cursed family, and frankly, it should be his surviving parent (and any other surviving parental guardians/influencers) that should be doing the time for him, while he is deported. His father is rotting in hell, and I wish a pox on the surviving adults who still support the terrorist ideology of their father and al'Qaeda.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: North Star on July 16, 2008, 16:57:38
Oh yes, after having read bits of the Act I'd torque up the punishment for the offence to at least 15 years. As it currently stands 1 and 2 years (what the hell is "hard-labour" anyway?) seems really lame.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Larry Strong on July 16, 2008, 17:49:26
A little more on the interviews in today "Red Deer Advocate". Reproduced in accordance with the fair dealing provisions of the Copyright Act


http://www.albertalocalnews.com/reddeeradvocate/news/national/Omar_Khadr_shifty_sullen_self-pitying_on_CSIS_interrogation_tape.html

Quote
Omar Khadr shifty, sullen, self-pitying on CSIS interrogation tape
By The Canadian Press - July 15, 2008   
 
 
by The Canadian Press
EDMONTON — Sitting in his prison-orange shirt under the harsh lights of a Guantanamo Bay bunker, sullen and self-pitying Omar Khadr is by turns the shifty grinning truant teenager and the forlorn victim of a borderless war on terror.

“You didn’t just fall off the turnip truck,” his Canadian interrogator tells him as Khadr sits on a couch, drinking a Coke.

“Right now, Omar, it doesn’t get any worse.”

Tapes of the February 2003 interrogation of the Toronto-born Khadr by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service were released Tuesday following a court order to aid his defence on a charge he murdered U.S soldier Christopher Speer during a firefight in remote Afghanistan in 2002.

The tapes, grainy with poor sound quality, deliver a rare glimpse into the interrogation tactics by Canada’s spy agency.

The camera is hidden behind an air vent, leaving the frame slashed by horizontal slats. His interrogator’s face, for security reasons, is covered by a superimposed black ball, leaving the impression Khadr is being hectored by the petroglyphic stickman off a crosswalk sign.

“Finally,” Khadr smiles on the first day when he learns he is talking to fellow Canucks.

“I’ve been requesting the Canadian government the whole time.”

It had been a long, harsh road to Guantanamo and the CSIS interview.

Government documents, recently unsealed by the courts, reveal that for weeks prior to interrogations, his jailers at the U.S. base in Cuba would soften him up by moving him from cell to cell every three hours on a “frequent flyer” program to deprive him of sleep, making him punchy and more susceptible to questions.

Khadr, now 21, was 15 in July 2002 when he was captured in a firefight with U.S. forces rooting out terrorist strongholds in an Afghanistan village near the Pakistani border.

Sgt. Speer, a 28-year-old medic and father of two from Albuquerque, N.M., was hit by a grenade blast and grievously wounded. Less than two weeks later at a hospital in Germany, they pulled the plug. Khadr was shot twice through the torso in the exchange, shrapnel also grievously damaging his left eye.

He was soon airlifted to Guantanamo Bay and six months later was interviewed while, all around him, the drumbeats of America’s renewed war on terror were beating louder and louder.

Just days earlier, then-U.S. secretary of state Colin Powell made his case to the United Nations why it was time to go after Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction. Around the world, protesters demanded a halt to the pending invasion.

On the Al Jazeera network, al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden called for Muslims to continue the fight against America.

It was al-Qaida and bin Laden whom CSIS investigators wanted to know more about from Khadr. His father, Ahmed Said Khadr, was then a vocal supporter and financier for al-Qaida and later died fighting Pakistani forces in the fall of 2003.

No, says Khadr, eating potato chips, picking off crumbs from his shirt and licking his lips, Dad didn’t fund terrorist training camps.

“So everybody’s perceptions of what your father was doing is all kind of a big mistake, is it?” asks the interrogator.

Yes, he nods.

Did Omar go to training camps?

Yes.

For what.

“Self defence.”

Chip. Smack. Finger lick.

“I’m very happy to see you,” smiles Khadr as Day 1 wraps up.

The next day the bonhomie falls off a cliff.

On the tape, Khadr remains behind the desk but now is sullen, morose, unco-operative, crying.

“You don’t care about me!” he blurts out, his face down, covered by his hand.

“Nobody cares about me.”

He pulls his orange shirt over his head and points to his left shoulder.

“I can’t move my arms.

“I requested medical help a long time ago. They wouldn’t do anything about it.”

The interrogator is unfazed.

“I’m not a doctor but I think you’re getting good medical care.”

“I lost my eyes, I lost my feet, everything!” he shouts back.

“No, you still have your eyes and your feet are still at the end of your legs, y’know.”

They leave him alone to compose himself. Instead he sits in the room, head in his hands, fingers clawing at his hair and forehead, sobbing and crying for his mother in Arabic.

By Day 3 he has shifted to a couch, but the mood is improving.

The interrogator softly, forcefully, pushes forward on the father.

“You know what your father wants. Your father wants to continue this struggle. But he’s doing this at the expense of his entire family.”

“He’s not doing anything bad,” says Khadr.

“Well, we think he is.”

On the last day, Khadr is relaxed, back on the couch, eating a reheated burger, sipping a Coke, his arms stretched out on the top of the couch.

He fences with the interrogator, shrugging and smiling as they discuss what he may know about terrorist operations.

Yes, he says, he lied to the Americans and, yes, he has lied to the interrogator. But he had to.

“I said that because I’m scared.”

Of what.

“Of torture.”

He didn’t kill Speer, he says, but instead was sitting down when he was ambushed by three soldiers: “They just came over and shot me,”

“How did that American end up getting so dead then?”

“There was a fight on.”

From there it was over.

“This is our last kick at the cat,” says the interrogator.

Help us out or we’re outta here.

“You just want to hear whatever you want to hear,” says Khadr.

How is he doing in Guantanamo? Getting along? Making friends?

No, says Khadr, head hung again.

“There’s nobody to help me here.”

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Niteshade on July 16, 2008, 17:59:29
Quote
“There’s nobody to help me here.”

Good.

Nites
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on July 16, 2008, 18:44:01
I see CBC Radio is really playing up the "Bring Khadr Home" theme....to the point I just turned it off....
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Brutus on July 16, 2008, 18:46:41
Hi folks, new member here with a few very basic yet important questions re: Khadr.

1- What is the basis for the criminal charge of murder? What I am driving at is this: is it the fact that he was not a member of the recognized military of Afghanistan at the time the crucial bit here?

2- My understanding is that he is being held in Gitmo under a general guise of being a terrorist, but specifically for the criminal charge of murder, and held as an unlawful combatant. Is that the general assumption?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: NL_engineer on July 16, 2008, 19:18:18
Well I finally got the chance to watch the videos.  They seem to be the most doctored crock of S*** that I have ever seen.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: MedKAWD on July 16, 2008, 19:38:07
Well I finally got the chance to watch the videos.  They seem to be the most doctored crock of S*** that I have ever seen.

Agreed, even though the video was a real tear jerker ::) ... it does not change my opinion that he deserves what he got and what he will get in the future.  I mean what is this video trying to prove?  That young people cry during Federal interrogation?  Well, yea so would I :-\.  It's not like its a video of him being water boarded, so what's the motive behind releasing them?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: N. McKay on July 16, 2008, 22:31:04
so what's the motive behind releasing them?

It was ordered by the Supreme Court, wasn't it?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 16, 2008, 23:13:10
Can't we deem him a traitor or something and take away his citizenship?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: aesop081 on July 16, 2008, 23:19:07
Can't we deem him a traitor or something and take away his citizenship?

No. If we do that he will apply for refugee status and get back in here.

 ;D
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on July 16, 2008, 23:42:11
Can't we deem him a traitor or something and take away his citizenship?

Hi FD, greetings from the tropics. I hope your day is going well, and you are enjoying the northern summer.
 
I agree with you, but he is in US hands, and may never see life above the 49th again. Lets just hope that once justice comes, he is gaoled in the US for the rest of his life.

I don't buy the pity the 'child soldier crying for mommy' attitude for a heart beat of a flea. He's guilty. He was the only one alive in some rubble, where a grenade was thrown, killing a US soldier, unless dead people have reflexes that is. He knew what he was doing, it was no accident. It was a deliberate act towards Coalition Forces. The only downside to it all is he lived, and the press got hold of it, now we are all paying for it.  60 yrs ago, that pile of rubble would have been met by a flame thrower, with the result of crispy critters and good riddance.

I don't think one can strip citizenship from another, like stripping a resident of his visa if he commits a crime, and ends up being deported. They do that here all the time.

Our citizens should and MUST realise that once they leave our borders, they are at the mercy of the country they are in. Look what happens when one returns to their country of origin and is drafted into their army.

An example - we in Australia have had Australian citizens executed for drug crimes in Singapore and other countries, such as Viet Nam. Nothing could be done, and as much as I can have empathy for their parents, they new the risks, and so should this terrorist in custody now. Other Australian citizens currently s rot in foreign gaols in 3rd world countries for more drug crime, and other offences. Our government's hands are tied, but there is an exchange programme in the works with Indonesia.

Now, personally, I beleive that all new migrants, upon citizenship should be on an at least 10 yr good behaviour bond, and within that time, if one is charged with a significant crime, (less petty things and vehicle infractions), they and their families would be deported to whence they came. I think thats a fair go, and commands that newly appointed citizens be responsible and accountable for their actions.

This may curb some, but not all from straying, but if you are a radical extremist, one paper law is going to keep you from committing a terrorist act.


Happy days from a sunny and pleasnat winter's day,


OWDU
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: retiredgrunt45 on July 17, 2008, 01:25:30
I've said from the start that these "extremists" must be held to another standard, they don't recognize any other authority, legal or otherwise but in their misguided Jihad beliefs. This in itself places them in a category all to itself. So I believe that we should also have a special place for these international criminals and terrorists just like Guantanamo Bay, which separates them from domestic legal systems and treats them exactly the way they should be treated. "Like animals" "Chattel". Because when they willingly decided to and participated in the brutal killings, executions, be headings and the merciless killing of babies, children, women and of the mentally ill or handicapped. "Did I leave anyone out?" They then became lower than "animals" and this is exactly how they should be treated. "Scum, puke, vomit or feces. They should have no rights, no day in court, no bail or no quarter for a phone call. These animals need to be sent a message and that message is, if you so choose to become one of these cowardly lowly terrorists, you will then be captured and sent to a place just like  Guantanamo Bay, were you will enjoy all the trappings of a person who for all intensive purposes, does not exist anymore. And how can someone who does not exist, have any rights?

To sum up Khadr should stay exactly were he belongs for the rest of his natural life, Guantanamo Bay. Myself, I would find an island somewhere remote, place them all on it and then nuke it.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Blindspot on July 17, 2008, 08:40:19
I'm just imagining if Khadr was a white kid brought up by neo-nazis or Klan. I wonder how much sympathy he'd be getting right about now.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hamish Seggie on July 17, 2008, 09:34:13
Lets bring poor Omar back, the poor young terrorist!! What's a poor terrorist to do, those mean CSIS and American agents!!
Bring the rotten little p@ick back, try him and deport him and his terrorist family!!

How hard is that to understand? And we actually have people saying he had a right to be in Afghanistan with terrorists!!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: E.R. Campbell on July 17, 2008, 10:21:57
I'm just imagining if Khadr was a white kid brought up by neo-nazis or Klan. I wonder how much sympathy he'd be getting right about now.

It should must not matter that Mr. Khadr is white or brown or green. He is a Canadian. He is, therefore, entitled to all the rights available to any other Canadian, including the support of the Government of Canada when he is in trouble abroad.  Our rights and freedoms exist, for all of us, only to the degree that we are willing to defend them for the most wretched and despised amongst us. If we deny Mr. Khadr any right then we are saying that we expect that right to be denied to us all – and to our brothers and sisters, too. Neither the government nor thinking Canadians can ‘cherry pick’ rights, nor can we ‘cherry pick’ the people who are entitled to have their rights protected.

With specific regard to Mr. Khadr, as I understand the situation – any my understanding may well be faulty, he, like any Canadian is entitled, by law, to consular access and the Government of Canada must do its best to ensure that Mr. Khadr is treated ‘properly’ and in accordance with the laws of the country with which he is involved. The Government of Canada is obliged to ensure that he is not treated unfairly – according to the laws of the country concerned – just because he is a Canadian.

In the case of the USA, the law is less than clear to Americans. The US courts are littered with challenges to ‘Gitmo’ and the military tribunals, and, and, and ... the rulings, to date, have been inconsistent which means that some US judges appear to have concluded that some US officials have failed, in some part, to “support and defend the Constitution of the United States” as those officials have sworn an oath to do. Thus, the six years in question are understandable – the US law is in flux. Khadr is not being treated differently from any other detainees just because he is a Canadian. 

As to the ‘child soldier’ issue: there are no binding agreements regarding what a child soldier is but the UN says (http://www.unicef.org/emerg/index_childsoldiers.html) ” 18 [is] the minimum age for direct participation in hostilities, for recruitment into armed groups, and for compulsory recruitment by governments. States may accept volunteers from the age of 16 but must deposit a binding declaration at the time of ratification or accession, setting out their minimum voluntary recruitment age and outlining certain safeguards for such recruitment.” The US says (http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/fs/2005/50941.htm) that it ”ratified the UN Optional Protocol on the Use of Children in Armed Conflict that makes the minimum compulsory recruitment age 18” so it appears that Khadr ought to be considered a child soldier – probably would be considered a child soldier if he was being held in a US jail, anywhere inside the USA, proper, awaiting trial in front of almost any US court. But, once again, if Mr. Khadr is being mistreated it is not because he is a Canadian – his US lawyers will, eventually, have access to the US Constitution to deal with that issue.

Regarding the tapes: Khadr’s lawyers admit that they are trying to influence public opinion in order to challenge the current policy regarding Khadr’s detention; they want him brought back to Canada before he can be required to answer any US charges. It is, I guess about the best legal strategy available to them. They are being actively supported by a huge share of the Canadian commentariat who, regardless of how they see young Mr. Khadr and his clan, view George W Bush as public enemy number one and Stephen Harper as his evil apprentice.

It is neither the right nor duty of the Government of Canada to challenge US law. It is the duty of the Government of Canada to ensure that all of Mr. Khard’s legal rights are provided and protected.


Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on July 17, 2008, 11:06:26
Quote
It is neither the right nor duty of the Government of Canada to challenge US law. It is the duty of the Government of Canada to ensure that all of Mr. Khard’s legal rights are provided and protected.


And essentially, they have been.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 17, 2008, 13:14:52
Hi FD, greetings from the tropics. I hope your day is going well, and you are enjoying the northern summer.

OWDU
Thanks  OWDU. Good post. I agree. Also our cheerful disposition even when speaking about such a little turd is an example to us all  ;)

E.R. Campbell,
I thought the US was one of the only two countries in the UN who hasn't signed the child soldier act?
While they generally do not send soldiers overseas unless they are 18, they still wanted to retain the capability to send younger soldiers if the need arose?

This was brought up during a briefing where the speaker was pointing out child soldiers are just as deadly, sometimes if not more as their adult counter part. The first US soldier killed in Afghanistan was by 'child soldier'.
Was he mistaken about the US not signing the child soldier act?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: E.R. Campbell on July 17, 2008, 13:34:29
...
E.R. Campbell,
I thought the US was one of the only two countries in the UN who hasn't signed the child soldier act?
While they generally do not send soldiers overseas unless they are 18, they still wanted to retain the capability to send younger soldiers if the need arose?

This was brought up during a briefing where the speaker was pointing out child soldiers are just as deadly, sometimes if not more as their adult counter part. The first US soldier killed in Afghanistan was by 'child soldier'.
Was he mistaken about the US not signing the child soldier act?

Dunno! Thus all my weasel-wording and appears etc. But the link I provided indicates that the US did sign, at least, the optional protocol in the UNICEF link.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Thucydides on July 17, 2008, 17:42:06
WRT child soldiers, the way I understand it the signatories are obliged to refrain from recruiting, training or deploying children for their own armed forces (although I could be wrong).

As well, the wording of the document is very similar to the way "soldiers" are defined by the Geneva convention. Omar Khadar (like his AQ counterparts anyplace on Earth) does not fall under or conform to the definition of "soldier" as spelled out in the Geneva conventions or implied in other documents such as the UN one quoted earlier. Omar Khadar is an illegal combatent by definition, and the big question in law is how to deal with this category of person. How he came to be involved as an ilegal combatent against the Alliance may be questioned (was he brainwashed by the AQ, for example? Was his behaviour in Afghanistan voluntary or coerced?), and these questions should probably be explored by a court or tribunal.

I have very little sympathy for the family, however. They have chosen to publicly speak and act against Canada and Canadian law while at the same time demanding all the protections and privilages of citizens. If they don't like Canada, they are quite free to leave. Perhaps some Islamic paradise where Mrs Khadar is forced to remain housebound and silent under threat of severe beatings or death at the hands of male relatives would be more to her taste? (The irony of that "desired" end state by female Islamic radicals who blog on the Internet or speak in public in defense of their incarcerated menfolk is just overwhelming).
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: axeman on July 17, 2008, 20:11:51
Boo Frickety Hoo. Let the  sap burn. I dont see any tears being shed for Daniel Pearl and many others that have been taken by his comarades, when they beheaded and mutilated them . If the bleeding hearts wanna lose sleep over someone like him who knew what he was doing when he was captured in a warzone with proven links to terrorists.. / freedom fighters. You wanna Fight ,you know some one lives and some one dies . I'll pay the 2 bucks for a round  and clean the  rifle after putting one into him. All this blaming someone else makes me sick at what point does one become responsible for his own actions...  screw him , he knew what he was doing ... if he doesnt get the death penalty  let him rot in jail.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jarnhamar on July 18, 2008, 00:36:41
Dunno! Thus all my weasel-wording and appears etc. But the link I provided indicates that the US did sign, at least, the optional protocol in the UNICEF link.

I never read the link, I'll take a look.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: tomahawk6 on July 18, 2008, 02:05:32
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbp1.blogger.com%2F_L6pDyjqqsvY%2FSFhFsNnbD3I%2FAAAAAAAAObY%2FOdHBaKT34LU%2Fs200%2Fkhadr.jpg&hash=7df79b6934c6e93012644d636f913242)

I am surprised that people who have seen this image would doubt Khadar's guilt. If he had been in school in Canada he wouldnt be in Gitmo today. If Khadar was innocent how come he was shot during a firefight with US troops ? The kid is not innocent and must pay the piper. How long should he be sentenced for ? Twenty years is a good round number. These taliban/aq killers are so brainwashed or so committed to the cause that once they are released they will be back in the fight. We have seen this with previous Gitmo residents and even with the Kandahar jail break. I hate to say it but these fanatics need to be killed not captured. Locking them up doesnt work. Sounds like our civilian prison system.  :(



Edited to fix link
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Inky on July 18, 2008, 04:52:51
[imghttp://bp1.blogger.com/_L6pDyjqqsvY/SFhFsNnbD3I/AAAAAAAAObY/OdHBaKT34LU/s200/khadr.jpg][/img]
 I hate to say it but these fanatics need to be killed not captured. Locking them up doesn't work. Sounds like our civilian prison system.  :(

Not sure I agree with you on this one. While calling these men regular criminals would be an understatement, there is no doubt that they are our prisoners and our responsibility.
We keep them because our values make it so, we're better than them and we prove it by feeding and providing the ones who fought us with a fair trial. What do they do? They behead and torture and commit all manners of atrocities. We're better than them and our treatment of prisoners prove it.

Besides, seeing the state in which khadr was during his interrogation(providing he wasn't faking) made it seem like he was pretty unhappy already.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on July 18, 2008, 05:50:47
Not sure I agree with you on this one. While calling these men regular criminals would be an understatement, there is no doubt that they are our prisoners and our responsibility.
We keep them because our values make it so, we're better than them and we prove it by feeding and providing the ones who fought us with a fair trial. What do they do? They behead and torture and commit all manners of atrocities. We're better than them and our treatment of prisoners prove it.

Besides, seeing the state in which khadr was during his interrogation(providing he wasn't faking) made it seem like he was pretty unhappy already.

Hi TIin,

Greetings and gooddiddly day,

You can't train cancer cells to be good, finatics are cancer, and must be destroyed. I have seen what they can do up close, smelled it, and tasted the fear.

Gitmo is not our responsibility, nor this the captured terrorist in question. Its all a matter of another country, the USA.

I am not saying destroy them once captured, thats murder, but they must be kept behind bars for life, any others on the battlefiled which are killed, well, so be it. There is a difference between killing and murder.

A leopard doesn't change its spots, never.

I do hope you are having a most pleasant evening, oops its morning in Canada now, just coming up 1900 here on a Friday nacht.

Happy days,

OWDU

His point is very valid.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: MCG on July 18, 2008, 10:18:19
If he had been in school in Canada he wouldnt be in Gitmo today.
There is no law prohibiting school aged children from leaving Canada, and there is no law prohibiting school aged children from being in Afghanistan.  The issue is not that Khadr was not "in school in Canada."  The issue is not even that he was in Afghanistan.  The issue is specifically his goals and activities while in Afghanistan.

If Khadar was innocent how come he was shot during a firefight with US troops ?
Innocent people have been shot during firefights involving insurgents & ISAF/OEF forces.  It is unfortunate, but it happens and is probably unavoidable.  While your picture is a wonderful emotional tool, it does not prove anything one way or another.

Gitmo is not our responsibility, nor this the captured terrorist in question. Its all a matter of another country, the USA.
As Edward has pointed out, this is not true.  The Canadian Government has certain responsibilities for all of its citizens and (like it or not) Khadr is a Canadian citizen.

At the same time, I've not seen much (if anything) to prove "terrorist" applies to Khadr.  Yes, he did fight as an insurgent but (despite the fact that insurgent forces may employ terrorism) not all insurgents have involvement in terrorism.  In this case "terrorist" is just an emotionally charged word intended to win an argument without the need for facts to get in the way.

It seems that many will scream quite loudly when the left substantiates its positon on emotion as opposed to fact.  Yet, here many of the same faces seem ready to toss asside our values based largely on emotional arguments.

I hate to say it but these fanatics need to be killed not captured.
Absolutely not, and you know better.  We do not win by abandoning our values & becoming the worst of what our enemy is.

I am not saying destroy them once captured, thats murder, but they must be kept behind bars for life, any others on the battlefiled which are killed, well, so be it. There is a difference between killing and murder.
This does sound more reasonable to me.  The insurgent exists in some grey area between combatant and criminal (note: terrorists are not in this grey area as they are all the way into the criminal).  Once identifed as an insurgent by a competent tribunal, pers should be subject to longer incarcerations (with the potential for indefinate) and more restrictive release mechanisms.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: 2 Cdo on July 18, 2008, 10:40:49
If the US had just called them POW's from the start, then they would have been able to hold them, without trial, until the War on Terror was over. Be that 5 years or 50 years!
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: tomahawk6 on July 18, 2008, 11:39:56
Quote
If he had been in school in Canada he wouldnt be in Gitmo today.
There is no law prohibiting school aged children from leaving Canada, and there is no law prohibiting school aged children from being in Afghanistan.  The issue is not that Khadr was not "in school in Canada."  The issue is not even that he was in Afghanistan.  The issue is specifically his goals and activities while in Afghanistan.

I guess you missed my point. Normal kid stays in Canada goes to school,the mall and maybe has a part time job.Instead he is a jihadist at what 15 years of age ? Takes up arms against an ally of Canada. Thats not normal nor can it be condoned - at least by me.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: KevinB on July 18, 2008, 13:10:28
I guess you missed my point. Normal kid stays in Canada goes to school,the mall and maybe has a part time job.Instead he is a jihadist at what 15 years of age ? Takes up arms against an ally of Canada. Thats not normal nor can it be condoned - at least by me.

It would also be against Canada as Canada had comitted to the Afgan mission as part of the 9/11 responce package.

Kadr is thus a traitor - I would hang him from the Peace Tower on Parliament Hill, and that would be Canadian nationalism in action.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Old Sweat on July 18, 2008, 13:18:07
I also think we had troops in Afghanistan at the time, so it was perhaps only by chance that he missed engaging our guys.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: stegner on July 18, 2008, 13:29:15
Let's see after the Second World War did Canadian servicemen and women go around rounding up Hitlerjugend to be hanged from the Peace Tower?  (Now that's ironic; even more so then no fighting in the war room a la Dr. Strangelove).  Or did we try to rehabilitate them?  Did we doom them to death or criminality because they were influenced by very bad adults?  Or did we invoke an element of humanity that distinguishes us from our foes and transform that generation to one of the most successful German generations ever.   Despite the most macho assertions we can't kill all the extremists-we don't have enough bullets.    Again, no one here knows what exactly what occurred and the degree of guilt of young Khadr.   Could he have killed the medic?  Sure.  Could the medic been killed by someone else and even friendly fire as some claim?  Possibly.   Let's not condemn him without knowing all the evidence as that sounds like something like our foes would do.   Can we intervene in this situation?  Sure. Britain and other NATO allies have extricated their citizens from Gitmo and dispensed their justice.   Should we?   Not up for me to decide.  But, if the U.S wants to claim itself as the beacon of freedom to the world they should realize that this should reflected in their political system and not merely serve as empty platitudes.   Keep in mind that Khadr's lawyer is an American and a military officer-not just some hippie civilian.   
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Old Sweat on July 18, 2008, 14:02:35
We (the Western Allies) did go after major war criminals. A Canadian court martial sentenced Kurt Meyer to death for the murder of Canadian prisoners by troops under his command early in Normandy when he was commanding 25 SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment. After the war the British tried and executed the CO of 2nd Battalion 26 SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment and one of his officers for the murder of other Canadian prisoners. I also believe that at least one Japanese guard was tried and convicted for mistreatment of Canadian prisoners of war. The main reasons we didn't go after more members of the Hitler Youth Division had nothing to do with humanity; the ones that escaped prosecution either had been killed, were unidentified or evaded successfully. In other words, we couldn't apprehend them.

I want to stress that fighting hard and/or being a brutish thug are not war crimes. In my opinion most of the members of 12 SS Panzer Division were not war criminals. There were, however, a significant minority including officers and NCOs that were. 

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: stegner on July 18, 2008, 14:13:34
Old Sweat you are off the mark.

From wikipedia:

The Hitler Youth was disbanded by Allied authorities as part of the Denazification process. Some HJ members were suspected of war crimes but - as they were children - no serious efforts were made to prosecute these claims. While the HJ was never declared a criminal organization, its adult leadership was considered tainted for corrupting the minds of young Germans. Many adult leaders of the HJ were put on trial by Allied authorities, and Baldur von Schirach sentenced to twenty years in prison. He was however convicted of crimes against Humanity for his actions as Gauleiter of Vienna, not his leadership of the HJ.


Despite this, several notable figures have been "exposed" by the media as former HJ Youth members. These include Stuttgart mayor Manfred Rommel (son of the famous general Erwin Rommel); former foreign minister of Germany Hans-Dietrich Genscher; philosopher Jurgen Habermas; and the late Prince Consort of the Netherlands Claus von Amsberg.

In April 2005 the media reported that Pope Benedict XVI had, as 14-year old Joseph Ratzinger, been a HJ member. The German government's response was that compulsory membership of the HJ had little bearing on the pope's religious convictions or on his ability to lead the Roman Catholic Church.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Old Sweat on July 18, 2008, 14:22:37
I am not off the mark. I am specifically talking about the actions of 12 SS Panzer Division in combat in Normandy, and not about members of the youth group and their leaders in civilian life.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: stegner on July 18, 2008, 14:25:09
Quote
The main reasons we didn't go after more members of the Hitler Youth Division had nothing to do with humanity; the ones that escaped prosecution either had been killed, were unidentified or evaded successfully. In other words, we couldn't apprehend them.

On this you are off the mark.  Consider this:

Quote
The Hitler Youth was disbanded by Allied authorities as part of the Denazification process. Some HJ members were suspected of war crimes but - as they were children - no serious efforts were made to prosecute these claims. While the HJ was never declared a criminal organization, its adult leadership was considered tainted for corrupting the minds of young Germans. Many adult leaders of the HJ were put on trial by Allied authorities, and Baldur von Schirach sentenced to twenty years in prison. He was however convicted of crimes against Humanity for his actions as Gauleiter of Vienna, not his leadership of the HJ.


Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: NL_engineer on July 18, 2008, 14:35:43
Stegner, all tho child soldiers, they were part of the German Military, thus in turn LEGAL COMBATANTS.  Mr. Khadr on the other hand was part of a group of insurgents, thus he is an  ILLEGAL COMBATANT.  There is a big difference between the two.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Old Sweat on July 18, 2008, 14:47:39
You obviously don't or won't understand the difference between a Waffen SS Division in battle and a civilian youth organization. Please stop dragging the latter into the argument. If you wish to do some reading into the division's atrocities in Normandy a good source is Conduct Unbecoming: The Story of the Murder of Canadian Prisoners of War in Normandy by Howard Margolian.

Back to the aim of this thread and sorry for the hijack. I suggest that Khadr's defence team may, repeat may, think that its case is weak. This could account for its attempts to politicize the case and to get him returned to Canada. A trial in Canada, either as a young offender or an adult, would likely either result in an acquittal or a conviction with a number of questionable points of law that could lead to a successful appeal. It could also be just delaying tactics in the hope that policy will change, the camp will be shut down, an amnesty will be declared or any other numbers of possibilities.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: E.R. Campbell on July 18, 2008, 14:48:17
On this you are off the mark.  Consider this:

Sorry, but it is you who is off base.

The HJ like every other NAZI organization was disbanded in 1945. The people who had been members of those organizations were a whole other problem. Many did not wait around for allied troops - they ran away, hoping they could blend in, back home, and avoid whatever consequences their individual actions might have allowed or required.

For example: some of the young men in 12.SS-Panzer-Division Hitlerjugend might well have committed war crimes - when they were 18 years old - and some might well have escaped punishment simply by running away and hiding out at mommy's house.

Since you referenced a Wikipedia article, you might want to consider this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_SS_Panzer_Division_Hitlerjugend).
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Danjanou on July 18, 2008, 14:54:02
Ok is anybody else finding it amusing that someone is engaging OS on actions in Normandy and using wikipedia as his source? ::)

careful OS he may start misciting certain books on the battle to prove his point.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: E.R. Campbell on July 18, 2008, 14:58:22
... I suggest that Khadr's defence team may, repeat may, think that its case is weak. This could account for its attempts to politicize the case and to get him returned to Canada. A trial in Canada, either as a young offender or an adult, would likely either result in an acquittal or a conviction with a number of questionable points of law that could lead to a successful appeal. It could also be just delaying tactics in the hope that policy will change, the camp will be shut down, an amnesty will be declared or any other numbers of possibilities.

Indeed; that is exactly what his Canadian lawyers have said. They expect him to be allowed full due process (a fair trial) under whatever processes pass muster in the USA (still not quite clear), and they expect him to be convicted on at least some of the charges. Their goal is to avoid that result by pressuring the Canadian government to seek his repatriation before he can be convicted of anything. Their action, in Canada, is 100% political because there is no legal case for Kadhr to answer here.

As I have said before: the Government of Canada is acting correctly - Kadhr is in trouble in a foreign country; the Government of Canada is duty bound to monitor his situation with the aim of ensuring that his Canadian citizenship does not interfere with due process in the foreign country. In other words, so long as Kadhr is not treated differently, at law, from other detainees just because he is a Canadian then his 'rights,' as a Canadian, have been protected by Canada. After he is convicted, if he is convicted, then, presumably, he can apply for repatriation to serve his prison term in Canada - as can other Canadians gaoled in the USA.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: stegner on July 18, 2008, 15:06:08

The HJ left no records for the Allies to find?  When the Abwehr, SS, Gestapo and every other Nazi organization including the concentration camps did. Highly unlikely!   My point is that the Allies did not try the children of the HJ precisely because they were children not because they could not find them.  Absurd!  Many of these folks were drafted, drafting requires paper work-lots of it.  The Germans left lots and lots of paperwork on the HJ and lots else.   If the Allies wanted to track them down they could have. 

The HJ was a civilian organization?  Certainly not-they were paramilitary.  Not too many civilian organizations send folks or children into battle with guns.  Look at any book on the Battle of Berlin-they will mention the activities of youths pressed in to service.     

I never talked about Normandy. In fact, I never mentioned the 12 SS Division until now.   
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Old Sweat on July 18, 2008, 15:42:01
Nice try, but the Battle of Berlin was a case of defence of the homeland. Once again you are obsfucating the issue. The members of the Hitler Youth were children and there was nothing to be gained in prosecuting them after the war. There was a reason for going after those who had committed war crimes, which as I said, included members of the 12 SS Panzer Division. They were sought because of their alleged actions, not because of their membership in an organization.

I suspect many of their elders with less than clean hands were relieved to find that the Allied governing nations (in the three western zones at least) were willing to let minor Nazis not implicated in war crimes off the hook in the name of rebuilding Germany.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: stegner on July 18, 2008, 15:57:43
But the obfuscation is coming from the linking of Khadr with war crimes committed by the HJ.  I was trying to demonstrate that what Khadr did was by no means a war crime, but comparable to what HJ were doing at the Battle of Berlin-not the war crimes committed by the 12 SS Panzer Division.  After all, the Taliban was once the sovereign government of Afghanistan, even after 9/11.  Could his actions not be seen as a defense on a homeland from a Taliban perspective?   This being said, would Khadr be comparable to a minor Nazi, such as a German youth under 18 who joined the HJ voluntarily or was brainwashed into doing so?  If so, why the difference in treatment?   That was my point.  Sorry that we have taken such a roundabout way to get here.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hamish Seggie on July 18, 2008, 16:03:28
I think OldSweat has made his point. The German HJ fought in uniform, and were recognized as combatants. Mr. Khadr fought as an insurgent, non uniformed.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on July 18, 2008, 16:05:08
stegner if you want to divert to talking about the SS etc., start another thread, that is not the issue here
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Old Sweat on July 18, 2008, 16:08:03
If you want to link Khadr to the defence of Berlin, remember that neither he nor the Hitler Youth were members of an accepted military organization, and therefore were subject to the interpretation of their status by the winners. (Personally I think he should have been treated as a prisoner of war, but my feeling have no bearing on what will happen to him.)

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: MarkOttawa on July 18, 2008, 18:23:14
Two posts at Daimnation! (usual copyright disclaimer for newspaper quotes):

Problems with prosecuting Omar Khadr
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/011551.html

The Khadr options
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/011557.html

And the foreign service officer involved at Guantanamo is noticed by the press (the foreign first, oddly):

Omar Khadr, the child soldier of Guantanamo, interrogated in his cell
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article4339958.ece

Quote
...An official report made public yesterday [July 15] said that Jim Gould, a Canadian Foreign Ministry official who questioned Mr Khadr in 2004, considered him a “thoroughly screwed-up young man”. The diplomat also criticised the United States, saying: “All those persons who have been in positions of authority over him have abused him and his trust, for their own purposes. In this group can be included his parents and his grandparents, his associates in Afghanistan and fellow detainees in Camp Delta and the US military...

Ex-diplomat denies Khadr charges
'He was happy as a little clam . . . having fun'
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Canada/1068128.html

Quote
A former Canadian diplomat whose cloak of obscurity has been ripped away by new insights into the treatment of Omar Khadr said Thursday he feels somewhat demonized for his fact-finding visits to the controversial Guantanamo Bay prisoner.

In an interview from Ottawa, Jim Gould was adamant neither he nor anyone else at the Department of Foreign Affairs requested, endorsed or acquiesced to American abuse of the teen.

"We certainly never would have asked them to do anything to him," Gould said. "That’s appalling. I wouldn’t be able to live with myself if I thought that was the case."

Gould is one of the very few Canadians who have seen the Toronto-born Khadr since his capture by U.S. forces after a four-hour firefight in Afghanistan six years ago when he was just 15.

Now 21, Khadr is accused of throwing a hand grenade that killed an American medic, and is to be tried before a U.S. military commission in October.

"I’ve had sympathy with the kid since I first went down," Gould said.

"I was very aware of the fact that in Canada he probably would be a young offender, marginally responsible for what he was doing."

Gould visited Khadr twice at Guantanamo Bay — once in February of 2003 and again in April 2004.

It was the only way to glean first-hand information about the teenager’s mental and physical condition and had no intelligence purpose, he said.

"We (the department) thought we were on the side of the angels. We wanted to look at the kid, find out what he’s like, what we should do for him."

On the first visit, Gould was present at Khadr’s interrogation over four days by an agent for Canada’s spy service who can only be identified as Greg.

Video of the interrogation, released under court order on Tuesday, sparked some ugly accusations against the Canadian officials.

For example, Gould can be seen at one point adjusting the air conditioner in Khadr’s cell.

"This is now being described as torture because we were changing the temperatures — making it freezing cold or burning hot," he said.

"Well, we were uncomfortable or the kid was uncomfortable. That was what that was."

Newly released information also shows the Americans put Khadr on the widely criticized "frequent flyer plan" — waking the prisoner every three hours and moving him to a different cell — to prepare him for interrogation.

Gould noted that only occurred more than a year after the videotaped interrogation and said he only found out about the treatment just before going in to see Khadr for the second visit that lasted a few hours in 2004.

In any event, he said, the tactic was "stupid" and ineffective.

"He was not sleepy, he was not drowsy; he was happy as a little clam; he was having fun with me; he was playing with me," said Gould, 63, who retired shortly after his second visit.

Disclosure: I know Mr Gould, a very bright and caustically honest man--with great knowledge relevant to the Islamism problem plus good Arabic.

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Technoviking on July 18, 2008, 19:04:21
OK, I have to differentiate between the Hitler Youth ("Hitlerjugend") and the 12th SS Panzer-division "Hitlerjugend". 
The former was an organisation in Germany during the period known as the third empire ("das dritte Reich").
The latter was an SS tank division whose soldiers ("Other ranks") were largely volunteers who had (naturally) come from the Hitler Youth Organisation.  Its NCOs and Officers, however, were battle-hardened veterans of the East Front.
Quote
The origins of the 12. SS-Panzer-Division Hitlerjugend can be traced back to late 1942 and early 1943. In all probability, the idea to create a "Hitlerjugend" division was first tabled by SS-Gruppenführer Gottlob Berger for Hitler's consideration sometime in January of 1943. His vision called for the drafting of all HJ members who were born in 1926 and assigning them to a "Hitlerjugend" combat formation. Hitler liked the proposal and ordered Berger to commence organizing the division. The official order was issued on the 10th of February, 1943. Berger, probably thinking that, because the "HJ division" was "his" idea, nominated himself to be the first divisional commander of "Hitlerjugend". Much to everyone's amusement, Himmler politely declined Berger's candidacy a week later. Himmler gave that duty to SS-Oberführer Fritz Witt instead; a former HJ member.

In April of 1943, Hitler signed off on a number of additional decrees relating to the formation of the "Hitlerjugend" Panzergrenadier-Division; though it need be noted that Joseph Goebbels has serious reservations about the whole undertaking. One of Hitler's provisions called for the German Reichsarbeitsdienst (RAD) to release a number of HJ members for immediate transfer to the new embryonic HJ Panzer Grenadier Division. A number of pre-requisites however had to be met before a final transfer to the HJ division was officially approved:

a minimum height of 170cm/5ft.7in. was required for HJ Division infantrymen;

a minimum height of 168cm/5ft.6in. was required for HJ Division armor, FLAK, etc., troops; and,

all recruits would undergo an initial six week, pre-basic WEL training camp.

On May 1st, 1943, the first group of 8.000 HJ volunteers reported to the WEL camps. Of note is that of the 8.000 HJ boys, 6.000 were sent to the WEL camps and 2.000 were directed to attend advanced or special military training camps. Because the planning officials were not able to adhere to their desired six week training classes (and probably because they were under great pressures to expedite the training and subsequent combat availability of the new HJ division), they shortened the training time by two weeks. On July 1st, 1943, the graduating class of 8.000 HJ trainees were released for service in the HJ division. That same day, a second group of 8.000 HJ boys was ready to enter the above training regimen. By the 1st of September, 1943, 16.000 trained HJ recruits were listed on the rosters of the newly formed "Hitlerjugend" division.


Source:  http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1963

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Blindspot on July 18, 2008, 23:50:35
If you want to link Khadr to the defence of Berlin, remember that neither he nor the Hitler Youth were members of an accepted military organization, and therefore were subject to the interpretation of their status by the winners. (Personally I think he should have been treated as a prisoner of war, but my feeling have no bearing on what will happen to him.)

It's funny when the left thinks it's absurd to compare the war on terrorism with fighting Nazis in WWII.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: 54/102 CEF on July 19, 2008, 12:08:25
Just read a book by Marc Sageman titled Leaderless Jihad http://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/14390.html

This guy is among the top of the pile looking at who the Jihadi`s are - states that the front end of the movement in contact with friendly troops are rarely aware of the issues on either side. Goes into quite a lot of detail on this.

Now with regard to Omar Khadr - my point - despite what he may have done - he equates to a piece of equipment in that he may not be able to think through why he was captured, now or when he was captured.

Hence they probably have a useless inmate - can`t use him, must warehouse him. The CSIS video shows either an Ultra Operative of the other side - or a stooge - and so was probably useless to either side of the question.

The PM's sentiments of he did stuff and must go through the process....... are meaningless, closer to a civil case?, where the law? is blind. If there is a law it should be applied to him and then rehab - if possible. No way you say? We brought the FLQ Terror Fools to a Judge.

Bringing him back probably easy - but then we get into the home base issues - let my kid out of Jail! You'd have a non-stop circus on the go in Toronto with the Black Clad Designer Glasses Home base team and the Douchebags who line up with them vs the government.

Catch 22 for all if ever there was one. A competant enemy he was not, dangerous yes, but like a land mine that has to be dis-armed.

Now what to do?

Some searching on the law.gc.ca website shows (and its not exhaustive) - I ain't in the legal game so I have no opinion
See the Security of Information Act ( R.S., 1985, c. O-5 ) at link below

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/ShowTdm/cs/O-5//20080719/en?command=home&caller=SI&search_type=all&shorttitle=Security%20of%20Information%20Act%20&day=19&month=7&year=2008&search_domain=cs&showall=L&statuteyear=all&lengthannual=50&length=50

extract

Security of Information Act ( R.S., 1985, c. O-5 )

OFFENCES
Prejudice to the safety or interest of the State

3. (1) For the purposes of this Act, a purpose is prejudicial to the safety or interests of the State if a person

(a) commits, in Canada, an offence against the laws of Canada or a province that is punishable by a maximum term of imprisonment of two years or more in order to advance a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause or to benefit a foreign entity or terrorist group;

(b) commits, inside or outside Canada, a terrorist activity;

.........

(e) endangers, outside Canada, any person by reason of that person’s relationship with Canada or a province or the fact that the person is doing business with or on behalf of the Government of Canada or of a province;

(f) damages property outside Canada because a person or entity with an interest in the property or occupying the property has a relationship with Canada or a province or is doing business with or on behalf of the Government of Canada or of a province;

(m) contrary to a treaty to which Canada is a party, develops or uses anything that is intended or has the capability to cause death or serious bodily injury to a significant number of people by means of

(iv) an explosion; or

(n) does or omits to do anything that is directed towards or in preparation of the undertaking of an activity mentioned in any of paragraphs (a) to (m).

Harm to Canadian interests

(2) For the purposes of this Act, harm is caused to Canadian interests if a foreign entity or terrorist group does anything referred to in any of paragraphs (1)(a) to (n).
R.S., 1985, c. O-5, s. 3; 2001, c. 41, s. 27.

See table of contents and OFFENCES - note areas where it  relates to outside of Canada

Now - the question - was he competetant? - could he think through the consequences of his actions or was he a pawn?

My conclusion - bring him back - pay scads of $ to high sounding leeches in the legal system - and see what happens.

Its a bit of a harder question than "let him rot."
 


Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: North Star on July 19, 2008, 14:35:45
My question is, why risk bringing him back for a trial when the Americans will do it for us?

If he's found guilty, then we get him back as part of a prisoner repatriation. If they let him go, we use the Statute you just posted to give it another go (a different offence than murder, in another sovereign's jurisdiction).

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: 54/102 CEF on July 19, 2008, 15:04:10
My question is, why risk bringing him back for a trial when the Americans will do it for us?

If he's found guilty, then we get him back as part of a prisoner repatriation. If they let him go, we use the Statute you just posted to give it another go (a different offence than murder, in another sovereign's jurisdiction).


The idea of an American precedent to try them seems to be iffy - if it wasn`t `the other foreign nationals that have been repatriated may still be there... I understand Khadr is the last in the line of losers still held. Curious that there`s a coalition to fight but not a coalition to clean up the puzzle pieces.

I see the following

If a National law is on the books, and a citizen of the Nation breaks it - then the government is bound - like any Soldier or officer to do what they signed up to do - and cannot shirk its duties because its inconveniant - note this started with the Liberals

In my opinion the govt has to take control of him, examine him, and try him to prove he was fully aware of what he was doing - if he's found to be not accountable by reason of incapacity to understand what he was involved in - then it gets very hazy...... maybe they don't want to do this because their analysis suggests he'd get off.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: 54/102 CEF on July 21, 2008, 06:47:15
Earlier I wrote


If a National law is on the books, and a citizen of the Nation breaks it - then the government is bound - like any Soldier or officer to do what they signed up to do - and cannot shirk its duties because its inconveniant - note this started with the Liberals

Now we have the Right Hon Ex PM Martin diving into the swamp

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080720.wmartin21/BNStory/National/home

There is absolutely nothing like being Ready to do your duty after you`re no longer able to if you were ever willing to
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: sboatright on July 21, 2008, 23:58:35
Paul Martin apparently has a soft spot for terrorists:

1990 - looks for support from International Sikh Youth Federation (identified as terrorist group by CSIS)
2000 - attends $1,000 plate fundrasier for Tamil Tigers
2008 - rallies for Omar Khadr


There's a disturbing pattern here.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Fishbone Jones on July 22, 2008, 09:36:09
Earlier I wrote

Now we have the Right Hon Ex PM Martin diving into the swamp

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080720.wmartin21/BNStory/National/home

There is absolutely nothing like being Ready to do your duty after you`re no longer able to if you were ever willing to

Yup. Just another hot button issue that the libs can try and make political hay out of. This has nothing to do with Khadr, and everything about the libs standing opposite of Harper and trying to show themselves as still having influence in politics. Waffling gits with no backbone or honour. But Paul Martin? That's like the last time Joe Clark tried to reenter the fray. Totally ineffective and inconsequential. Washed up has beens with no cred. Guess they figure it's better to have an expendable patsy, in case it blows up in their face.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: milnews.ca on July 23, 2008, 14:02:02
Here's what CSIS is saying (http://www.csis.gc.ca/nwsrm/nwsrlss/prss20080721-eng.asp) about the interviews in the recently-released tapes.....

Quote
Canadian Security Intelligence Service - 2003 Interviews with Omar Khadr - Media Coverage
Ottawa, July 21st, 2008

Information relating to interviews of Omar Khadr by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service CSIS and the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (DFAIT) were recently released to Mr. Khadr’s legal counsel, following rulings by the Supreme Court of Canada in May 2008, and by the Federal Court of Canada in June 2008.

Following the public release of this information by Mr. Khadr’s lawyers, there has been much national and international media coverage pertaining to these interviews. Much of this coverage has focussed on video footage of Service interviews conducted with Mr. Khadr in February 2003.

Mr. Khadr was questioned by CSIS in 2003 about individuals - including those linked to the Al Qaeda organization - who may pose a threat to the security of Canada and its interests.
CSIS interviewed Mr. Khadr to collect threat-related information and intelligence and did not discuss consular issues with him, as this is not CSIS's role.

During the recent media coverage of this issue, some factual errors have been reported by certain media outlets. Specifically, select media outlets have claimed that Mr. Khadr had been mistreated by U.S. authorities - including via sleep deprivation - prior to those 2003 interviews with CSIS. This is simply not accurate. In fact, it should be clear that CSIS had no information to substantiate claims that Mr. Khadr was being mistreated by U.S. authorities in conjunction with the CSIS interviews in 2003.

Furthermore, the allegations which subsequently surfaced regarding sleep deprivation were in relation to a 2004 interview in Guantanamo Bay with Mr. Khadr, an interview in which CSIS was not a participant.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Sheep Dog AT on July 23, 2008, 14:20:17
Now what are the chances the mainstream media outlets will pick this up and publish it?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: CountDC on July 23, 2008, 14:30:48
Now what are the chances the mainstream media outlets will pick this up and publish it?


about as good as me becoming PM in the next 5 minutes.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: milnews.ca on July 23, 2008, 14:35:37
Maybe less....
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: stegner on July 23, 2008, 18:10:02
How would CSIS know what is going on at Gitmo though?  They don't.  How can one say it is not factual just because you don't happen to have facts about this?  Just because you can't or unable to confirm something didn't happen doesn't mean it didn't.    I am not saying CSIS is wrong or right, but it just seems odd that they would say what they are saying? 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on July 23, 2008, 18:41:16
  They don't. 
..and you know this how?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: E.R. Campbell on July 23, 2008, 18:47:23
CSIS is not claiming anything. Khadr's lawyers and supporters in the media are making all the claims and suggesting that CSIS supports them.

CSIS said: "CSIS had no information to substantiate claims that Mr. Khadr was being mistreated by U.S. authorities in conjunction with the CSIS interviews in 2003." In other words every time one of Khadr's cheering section says Khadr was "sleep deprived according to CSIS documents" they are stretching the truth waaaaay past the breaking point.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: stegner on July 23, 2008, 18:49:09
Quote
In other words every time one of Khadr's cheering section says Khadr was "sleep deprived according to CSIS documents" they are stretching the truth waaaaay past the breaking point.


Ahh I can agree with that.  It was just the part of the statement were CSIS said there were factual mistakes. 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: MarkOttawa on July 23, 2008, 20:02:41
stegner: Can you enlighten us on the epistemological implications?

Quote
How can one say it is not factual just because you don't happen to have facts about this?  Just because you can't or unable to confirm something didn't happen doesn't mean it didn't.


Bishop Berkeley springs to mind (though an atheist myself):.
http://faithphilosophy.blogspot.com/2007/01/bishop-berkeley-if-tree-falls-in-forest.html

Do check the link, please.

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: aesop081 on July 23, 2008, 20:05:03
  It was just the part of the statement were CSIS said there were factual mistakes. 

which there were.......
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: stegner on July 23, 2008, 20:25:25
The epistemological implications are such.  There are only a few ways in which CSIS can get info on Gitmo.  1) From the U.S 2) Conducting its own investigations 3) Open sources 4) Other nations.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: MarkOttawa on July 23, 2008, 20:30:54
stegner: Four avenues, diligently pursued, might lead to certain conclusions.

Mark
Ottawa
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: stegner on July 23, 2008, 20:58:44
Quote
stegner: Four avenues, diligently pursued, might lead to certain conclusions.

Mark
Ottawa

Certainly 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: daftandbarmy on August 29, 2008, 17:33:55
Somebody needs to send this guy in Kamloops a medal...

Kamloops This Week

Actually, the entire Khadr clan should be in Guantanamo

By Christopher Foulds - Kamloops This Week

Published: July 19, 2008 12:00 PM
So, Omar Khadr sobs a few sobs, utters a few woes-are-me and we are supposed to demand that Prime Minister Stephen Harper rescue the poor child from Guantanamo Bay?
 
Based on the wailing from the anti-American left in Canada, don’t be surprised to see the terrorist appointed to the Order of Canada.
Maybe then Dr. Henry Morgentaler will return his award in protest, thereby completing the ludicrous circle.
 
Omar Khadr is not a child soldier.
 
He was 15 and decided to follow his father and the rest of Canada’s first family of the jihad to Afghanistan to try to kill soldiers who represent the values of a society that allowed his family to denigrate all that we value, while sucking back taxpayer dollars of those they despise.
 
He is charged with killing U.S. Army Sgt. 1st Class Christopher Speer by lobbing a grenade during a battle.
Khadr denies doing this, of course, but the fact he was on the terrorist side of a battle against Canada and her allies should be more than enough to strip him of his citizenship.
We routinely criticize the Canadian judiciary for its leniency in sentencing teens who commit the most atrocious acts on our streets, cognizant that a 15-, 16- and 17-year-old know full well right from wrong.
Yet Khadr is referred to by many as an innocent child soldier who is the victim in this saga.
 
Wrong.
 
A child soldier is a nine-year-old in Sierra Leone, pumped full of heroin and handed a machete with which to wreak havoc.
Khadr was a 15-year-old who made the decision to become a terrorist and wage war against Canada and the rest of the West.
His sister, Zaynbar Khadr, watched the video of her brother — footage that is five years old and carefully edited by his legal team to extract maximum sympathy from those who refuse to see the truth.
 
She told Global News: “I don’t know what to expect from the Canadian government any more. I don’t expect them to be very nice.”
No, we don’t expect them to be very nice.
 
Any real Canadian would expect the Canadian government to be anything but nice to a murderous clan that has proven in action and in words that it detests the very country in which its members are, unfortunately, considered citizens.
 
However, by allowing the Khadrs to remain in Canada, by allowing public money to be funnelled to this hateful fa mily in the form of welfare payments and by allowing our public health-care system to spend precious dollars caring for Abdulkareem Khadr (Omar’s older brother by three years, who was paralyzed in a 2003 firefight with Pakistani forces. The clan’s father, Ahmed, was killed in the battle), the reality is Canada is being nice to a group of people that is Canadian in ink only.
How a family that declares its admiration for Osama bin Laden (who reportedly attended Zaynab’s wedding), spent as much time bouncing around terrorist training camps in Afghanistan and Pakistan as it did on Canadian soil and conveniently “lost’ plenty of passports can be considered Canadian is a mystery only gullible sympathizers can unravel.
 
Much has been said about the need for Canada to pressure the U.S. to follow rules set down by the Geneva Conventions.
A proposition: When a Canadian citizen travels around the world to join terrorists in a bid to kill soldiers of his own country and its allies, rules such as the Geneva Conventions do not apply.
 
Omar’s mom, Maha Elsamnah — yes, the woman who admitted to celebrating when the World Trade Center towers were attacked, the woman who waxed eloquent about how wonderful it would be to watch her offspring die as martyrs to the cause — watched her son as he wept in the video.
 
“My son is calling for me and I’m sitting here,” she told CBC.
In a perfect world, Omar would be calling for her and the rest of the treasonous Khadr clan as they sat together in a cell in Guantanamo Bay.

editor@kamloopsthisweek.com
http://www.bclocalnews.com/opinion/25637714.html
 
 


 
 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Target Up on August 29, 2008, 22:27:39
HRC must be salivating over this one.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: 54/102 CEF on August 30, 2008, 12:10:57
I think they (HRC = Human Rights Commission) may not want to be involved

What is discriminatory is here http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/H-6/bo-ga:s_1::bo-ga:s_2?page=2

Earlier in this thread I put up some links about what constitutes Terrorist Acts

That boy dug himself a big hole.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Nerf herder on August 30, 2008, 12:15:48
I gave up on the system as soon as I heard the wailing for Khadr's release.

IMHO....The entire family, with Maha Elsamnah in the lead, should be stripped of their citizenship and deported back to where ever they came from.

Regards
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: George Wallace on August 30, 2008, 12:23:48
I gave up on the system as soon as I heard the wailing for Khadr's release.

IMHO....The entire family, with Maha Elsamnah in the lead, should be stripped of their citizenship and deported back to where ever they came from.

Regards

In fact only one of many problems we have with our current Refugee/Immigration/Visa Systems.  We also have the Somali Warlord's family in Toronto.  How many of these 'people' have been able to find loopholes or just slide through the cracks in our Security?  They are a minority who give the vast majority of Legal Immigrants and bona fide Refugees a bad name.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Nerf herder on August 30, 2008, 12:36:48
In fact only one of many problems we have with our current Refugee/Immigration/Visa Systems.  We also have the Somali Warlord's family in Toronto.  How many of these 'people' have been able to find loopholes or just slide through the cracks in our Security?  They are a minority who give the vast majority of Legal Immigrants and bona fide Refugees a bad name.

Then there are the Triads and their connections a few years back getting visas and passports. The "thug from Shawinigan" and his ilk pretty much covered it over.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20040327/wfive_immigration_040327/20040327/
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 02, 2008, 10:43:02
And this "thug" stated that our PM was wrong in that he did not attend the Olympics in Bejing. Yeah right.....

NOW get this, CHINA!! of all nations now doesn't want sausage casings made by Maple Leaf Foods. And this is the nation that sells us poisoned pet food, lead in the toys our little kids play with, and crap in the toothpaste. :rage:

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on September 10, 2008, 20:03:48
Jonathan Kay on the Khadr family's warm-and-fuzzy web site: It's all about "giving, sharing and helping"
Posted: September 10, 2008, 3:42 PM by Jonathan Kay
 Article Link (http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/09/10/jonathan-kay-on-the-khadr-family-s-warm-and-fuzzy-web-site-it-s-all-about-quot-giving-sharing-and-helping-quot.aspx)

As noted first on  DustMyBroom (http://dustmybroom.com/content/view/5440/1/): The Khadr family has set up a web site to "tell our story." Surprise, surprise: It's a total whitewash of the family's role in promoting terrorism and radical Islam. Here, for instance, is what the site has to say about uber-terrorist patriarch Ahmed Khadr: "In 1985, after spending two summers volunteering in refugee camps, [Ahmed] resolved to move his family to the Afghanistan-Pakistan border and try to help the country rebuild after its devastating invasion by the Soviet Union. This decision changed our lives forever, and made us who we are today. And so our life of giving, sharing and helping began ... For all the fear and hatred, for all the rumors and lies spread about us, we remain what we have always been; a Canadian family proud to have used our contacts and resources to build a series of orphanages, schools and hospitals across war-torn Afghanistan."
More on link
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Blindspot on September 10, 2008, 21:52:50
"In 1985, after spending two summers volunteering in refugee camps, [Ahmed] resolved to move his family to the Afghanistan-Pakistan border and try to help the country rebuild after its devastating invasion by the Soviet Union. This decision changed our lives forever, and made us who we are today. And so our life of giving, sharing and helping began ... For all the fear and hatred, for all the rumors and lies spread about us, we remain what we have always been; a Canadian family proud to have used our contacts and resources to build a series of orphanages, schools and hospitals across war-torn Afghanistan."

I think someone messed up. Here's my translation:

"In 1985, after spending two summers volunteering in terrorist camps, [Ahmed] resolved to move his chattel to the Afghanistan-Pakistan border and try to plunge the country further into darkness after its devastating invasion by the godless Soviet infidels. This decision changed our lives forever, and made us who we are today. And so our life of throwing grenades, firing Kalishnakovs and aiming RPGs began ... For all the justifiable fear and hatred, for all the intelligence and documented truth spread about us, we remain what we have always been; a Canadian passport-holding family proud to have used our contacts and resources to bilk off the Canadian system, populate a series of orphanages, madrasas and hospitals across war-torn Afghanistan."
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: milnews.ca on September 26, 2008, 23:36:11
Link to La Presse article (in French) follows Toronto Star article, shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29 (http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33409), of the Copyright Act.

Khadr must face trial: Harper
PM dismisses report he was open to returning Guantanamo inmate to Canada
Joanna Smith, Toronto Star, 26 Sept 08
Article link (http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/506822)

Prime Minister Stephen Harper denied a report suggesting he would be open to bringing home Omar Khadr from Guantanamo Bay.

The Montreal newspaper La Presse reported today that shortly before the election was called, Governor General Michaëlle Jean asked Harper whether he would repatriate Khadr, a Canadian who has spent the past six years in prison accused of murdering an American soldier in Afghanistan in 2002.

According to La Presse, Harper told Jean he was not completely against an eventual repatriation but he said his caucus and party base would never accept such a thing.

"This story is false," Harper told reporters in Calgary today. "My position on Mr. Khadr is clear. He is charged with very serious crimes and we believe that he should face trial on those charges."

It is the same line he has delivered for months: that Canada must allow the American justice system to follow its course.

The newspaper said the discussion took place after the public release of an interrogation video in which a then 16-year-old Khadr cried and showed his wounds to a seemingly nonchalant CSIS official during a meeting inside the Guantanamo prison where Khadr has been for the past six years.

A spokesperson for Jean could neither confirm nor deny any meeting took place.

"They are confidential and you understand it is between the Prime Minister and the Governor General," Marthe Bloin said Friday. "I don't attend and I cannot even have the idea of trying to find out if it's true or not."

La Presse reported Jean and her husband, Jean-Daniel Lafond, consulted with experts in constitutional matters and international law and came to the conclusion that Canada should repatriate Khadr to respect his charter rights and also international conventions on child soldiers.

With files from Les Whittington



Vincent Marissal, "Michaëlle Jean a réclamé le rapatriement d'Omar Khadr," (http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualites/quebec-canada/politique-canadienne/200809/25/01-23689-michaelle-jean-a-reclame-le-rapatriement-domarkhadr.php) La Presse, 26 Sept 08
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: milnews.ca on September 27, 2008, 22:42:11
And an editorial from today's Globe & Mail, shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29 (http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33409), of the Copyright Act.

The right to warn, but not to leak

If true, reports that Governor-General Michaëlle Jean pressed Prime Minister Stephen Harper to repatriate Omar Khadr, who is accused of being a terrorist, to Canada from Guantanamo Bay would not constitute an abuse of her office. As the British constitutional thinker Walter Bagehot famously wrote, "The sovereign has, under a constitutional monarchy such as ours, three rights - the right to be consulted, the right to encourage, the right to warn."

Ms. Jean has neither the great experience nor the moral authority of the Queen; she is, however, the representative of our head of state, she meets large numbers of Canadians and she does have the benefit of independence and detachment.

If anything, it is unfortunate that a strain exists across Sussex Drive. The Prime Minister would benefit from regular meetings with the Governor-General, which were once a custom in this country.

The scandal here is not that Ms. Jean may have privately advocated Mr. Khadr's return, but that such an exchange would have been leaked, seemingly to cause political embarrassment to Mr. Harper in Quebec during a federal election campaign.

Mr. Harper on Friday said the La Presse story was wrong, but focused on the report's suggestion that he was not entirely against an eventual repatriation, but had told Ms. Jean his caucus and party base would never accept such a thing. "This story is false. My position on Mr. Khadr is clear. He's charged with very serious crimes and we believe that he should face trial on those charges," Mr. Harper said. But he was cagey on the question of whether Ms. Jean had intervened over the Khadr case: "Obviously I would not get into any discussion that would attribute political opinions to the Governor-General." It is proper that the Prime Minister would take such a position. The question is whether his discretion has been reciprocated.

La Presse reported that Ms. Jean's intervention came after she and her husband, Jean-Daniel Lafond, had consulted with experts in constitutional and international law, concluding that the government must repatriate Mr. Khadr to comply with Canada's Charter of Rights and international conventions on child soldiers. It is not the kind of information likely to have come from one of Mr. Harper's spin doctors. It happens to come a few days after Mr. Lafond, speaking in the context of the Conservative government's cuts to art funding, told The Globe "it's very safe for a politician to destroy culture."

If it is in fact shown that the Khadr leak originated at Rideau Hall, then questions would need to be asked about Ms. Jean's impartiality, and hence her ability to exercise her constitutional responsibilities.


Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 28, 2008, 08:06:58
This is, potentially, a very serious Constitutional problem.

That there are any leaks, on almost any subject, from Rideau Hall is a problem in and of itself – but usually a very minor one and easily put right.

But the demi-official ‘conversations’ between the sovereign (or her representative) and her prime minister are, always and without fail, absolutely private. No one, beyond those two individuals, has any right or reason to be privy to their discussions. The fact that everyone who reads the papers in Canada know ‘knows’ that Her Excellency the Right Honourable Michaëlle Jean “may have privately advocated Mr. Khadr's return” is a big problem .

It is not wrong that Mme. Jean is concerned about Mr. Khadr’s constitutional rights; it is not wrong that she ‘advocated’ a position, a proposal to the PM; it is Constitutionally unacceptable that her counsel was made public. That problem, if it involved her, her family or her staff, may cost Mme. Jean her job – as soon as a new government is installed.

Fortunately an excellent potential replacement (http://www.cda-cdai.ca/CDAI/de%20CHASTELAIN.htm) lives just down the street and has always been willing to serve when called.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 28, 2008, 13:01:06
My son was repatriated through Trenton. This little b@stard can rot in hell, along with his terrorist family.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Target Up on September 28, 2008, 13:35:39
 :salute:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on September 28, 2008, 13:38:03
When Cretian/Martin (can't remember which one...Martin I think) picked the GG, they knew the controversy and the baggage she came with. They were content with it as long it was going to be them in power, but they had to have known at one point or another, if Harper got in, they were going to lock horns over her and her husband's orientation.....totally 180 degrees...

I'm glad it leaked out.....it tells us it time to put else someone in
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on September 28, 2008, 13:49:19
GAP,
To date, the GG has done a commendable job and neither she nor her husband have done anything to deserve the derision you are dishing out.

If anything, it'd be someone with a personal agenda - looking to "out" her - that intentionally leaked the info to the media.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 28, 2008, 15:42:01
I met the Governor General in Trenton. She is one of the nicest people I've ever met. SHE CARES!!
The former GG was there as well. SHE CARES TOO.

As for the Khadrs...I think you know how I feel about them.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 28, 2008, 19:10:24
I don’t think anyone doubt’s Mme. Jean’s fine qualities as a person.

The issue- an important issue – is: who leaked the details of the conversation?

Who was there? Mme. Jean, of course, Mr. Harper, of course. Some staffers, too? Hers? His? Who, if anyone, did she tell what she planned to or did tell the PM? Who did Harper tell?

The list is not long. Someone needs to own up to either an error in judgment or a crass bit of political vandalism. If it was only the former then a slap on the wrist will suffice; if it was the latter then someone in Rideau Hall of on the PM’s team must go.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Old Sweat on September 28, 2008, 19:27:42
It could also be black information, that is a malicious story planted as a leak with a compliant journalist by a third party with an agenda. Perhaps not likely, but not outside the realm of possibility. Still, in the absence of any good intelligence, I would look for the culprit closer to home.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on September 28, 2008, 19:40:16
GAP,
To date, the GG has done a commendable job and neither she nor her husband have done anything to deserve the derision you are dishing out.

If anything, it'd be someone with a personal agenda - looking to "out" her - that intentionally leaked the info to the media.

I thought so too, and she just disappeared off my horizon....everything to date seemed standard fare for a GG....better than Clarkson by a long shot, and more effective for ceremonial position...
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 28, 2008, 19:57:55
I thought so too, and she just disappeared off my horizon....everything to date seemed standard fare for a GG....better than Clarkson by a long shot, and more effective for ceremonial position...


Hmmm. I thought Mme. Clarkson did an excellent job, despite a few cheap shots and a disgraceful lack of support from several politicians.

My only objection to Mme. Jean was that the appointment, not the woman, was so ‘copycat.’

One can imagine Paul Martin saying: “Well, gee, Adrianne has done a great job. We need someone just like her: attractive, classy, well spoken in both languages, great communicator and so on.” One of the staff replies: “Hey! How about Michaëlle Jean, she’s attractive and classy, too, and a great communicator in both languages and she’s even more of a visible minority and even more feminine and a mother to boot!”

I was on one major ceremonial event with Mme. Clarkson; in my view she was superb at that part of the job – better than anyone since Vanier.

I heard that her exactly right response to the casualties in Kandahar (18 Apr 02) (leaving Buckingham Palace to meet the bodies in Germany and bring ‘her’ soldiers home) was entirely her idea, her instinctive reaction; the right reaction.

I know that she wrote her own moving address at the consecration of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier – she finished it, in both English and French, polishing a couple of phrases, in the limo, on her way to the ceremony and gave one hand written (French) copy to her ADC to give to the interpreters so that they would get it 'right' in French, as she intended.
 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: George Wallace on September 28, 2008, 20:49:56
I don’t think anyone doubt’s Mme. Jean’s fine qualities as a person.

The issue- an important issue – is: who leaked the details of the conversation?

Who was there? Mme. Jean, of course, Mr. Harper, of course. Some staffers, too? Hers? His? Who, if anyone, did she tell what she planned to or did tell the PM? Who did Harper tell?

The list is not long. Someone needs to own up to either an error in judgment or a crass bit of political vandalism. If it was only the former then a slap on the wrist will suffice; if it was the latter then someone in Rideau Hall of on the PM’s team must go.

This is where the walls have ears, and staff on all levels, need to be properly briefed on Security.  If there are staff, at any level, who are not trust worthy and discrete, then rumours will leak out.  It could be like a game of Clue, where the Butler did it, or perhaps a indiscrete Caterer's employee.  There are many people travelling in political circles at the lowest levels, who have no problems with not keeping what they heard in confidence, even if what they heard was only a partial conversation, or a conversation taken out of context. 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on September 28, 2008, 21:41:06
She was probably everything you say she was ER....but  from here she struck me as eliteist.

The controversy over her budget didn't enhance her view in the public's eye. Just never took to her, but in all honesty it was not based on anything concret and I am affected by gossip as anyone....
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: the 48th regulator on September 28, 2008, 21:48:50
My son was repatriated through Trenton. This little b@stard can rot in hell, along with his terrorist family.

Brother,

You hit the nail on the head.

Let him rot, and never ever set foot on our land.  Not him.  Not his body.  Not his ashes. Not even a memory that he was ever a Canadian.

May the powers that be come to their senses.

dileas

tess


Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on September 28, 2008, 22:35:04
Brother,

You hit the nail on the head.

Let him rot, and never ever set foot on our land.  Not him.  Not his body.  Not his ashes. Not even a memory that he was ever a Canadian.

May the powers that be come to their senses.

dileas

tess




Well said Tess, and in total concurrance.

Regards,

Wes
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 28, 2008, 22:49:38
OWDU and Tess thank you very much!! This little SOB needs to go back to Afghanistan or wherever the f&ck he came from.

Let him take his chances there.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: GAP on September 28, 2008, 22:59:05
Well if we just keep on going the way we are, the US will try him and serve time in their prison systems....I don't think life will be very comfortable for him there, at best......at worst.....he's fresh meat for awhile.

ps: he'd better hope it's a civilian prison system he gets put into, if it's military, I suspect everything wished on him will come true....
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Thucydides on September 29, 2008, 00:56:41
Fortunately an excellent potential replacement (http://www.cda-cdai.ca/CDAI/de%20CHASTELAIN.htm) lives just down the street and has always been willing to serve when called.

Say, don't you live just up the road as well?  ;)

Well if we just keep on going the way we are, the US will try him and serve time in their prison systems....I don't think life will be very comfortable for him there, at best......at worst.....he's fresh meat for awhile.

ps: he'd better hope it's a civilian prison system he gets put into, if it's military, I suspect everything wished on him will come true....

Actually, I would expect he will have his person and rights much more rigorously protected at Fort Levensworth than in any civilian prison. I also expect the American MP's and soldiers in Kansas will uphold his rights until 2029 or so.....
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Yrys on October 16, 2008, 14:58:23
There is a french television show on Omar Khadr, at Radio-Canada, tonight at 20h, Eastern Time :

Le cauchemar d'Omar Khadr (http://www.radio-canada.ca/emissions/enquete/2008-2009/Reportage.asp?idDoc=66148)

(the nightmare of Omar Khadr)
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on October 16, 2008, 16:42:57
... in many ways, it is a hell of his own making.

Dream on my friend
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 16, 2008, 18:27:05
Rant time for a CSM!!
This little piece of crap doesn't belong anywhere near good Canadians. Let Jack and his bunch molly coddle and baby sit this little viper. With donations from the supporters of this murdering little b@stard.  :rage:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: axeman on October 16, 2008, 19:47:08
I am not a christian  but I just wish I could have the name of this person ~ I may want to shake her hand! I respect the faith's of other peoples! I respect other peoples rights to disagree ~ but I do not respect anyone who hides anywhere behind a cowardly mask! Behind anonymity ... you may not like what this says and that is okay ... that is what members of many families died fighting to preserve! Your right to agree or to disagree!


This was written by a Canadian woman, but oh how it also applies to the
U.S., U.K. and Australia


THIS ONE PACKS A FIRM PUNCH

Here is a woman who should run for Prime Minister!

Written by a housewife in New Brunswick , to her local newspaper. This
is one ticked off lady.

'Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was it or was it not
started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on September 11, 2001
and have continually threatened to do so since?

Were people from all over the world, not brutally murdered that day,
in downtown Manhattan , across the Potomac from the nation's capitol and in
a field in Pennsylvania ?

Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible,
burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?

And I'm supposed to care that a few Taliban were claiming to be
tortured by a justice system of the nation they come from and are fighting
against in a brutal insurgency.

I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents
for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.

I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start
caring about the Holy Bible, the mere belief of which is a crime punishable
by beheading in Afghanistan .

I'll care when these thugs tell the world they are sorry for hacking
off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed
throat.

I'll care when the cowardly so-called 'insurgents' in Afghanistan come
out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by
hiding in mosques.

I'll care when the mindless zealots who blows themselves up in search
of nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide
bombs.

I'll care when the Canadian media stops pretending that their freedom
of speech on stories is more important than the lives of the soldiers on
the ground or their families waiting at home to hear about them when
something happens.

In the meantime, when I hear a story about a CANADIAN soldier roughing
up an Insurgent terrorist to obtain information, know this:

I don't care.

When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not
to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank:

I don't care.

When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat,
and fed 'special' food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is complaining
that his holy book is being 'mishandled,' you can absolutely believe in
your heart of hearts:

I don't care.

And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled 'Koran'
and other times 'Quran.' Well, Jimmy Crack Corn you guessed it,

I don't care!!

If you agree with this viewpoint, pass this on to all your E-mail
friends. Sooner or later, it'll get to the people responsible for this
ridiculous behaviour!

If you don't agree, then by all means hit the delete button. Should
you choose the latter, then please don't complain when more atrocities
committed by radical Muslims happen here in our great Country!
And may I add:

'Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a
difference in the world. But, the Soldiers don't have that problem.'

I have another quote that I would like to add, AND.......I hope you
forward all this.

One last thought for the day:

Only five defining forces have ever offered to die for you:

1. Jesus Christ

2. The Canadian Soldier.

3. The British Soldier.

4. The US Soldier, and

5. The Australian Soldier

One died for your soul, the other 4 for your freedom.


YOU MIGHT WANT TO PASS THIS ON, AS MANY SEEM TO FORGET ALL OF THEM.

AMEN!

And just in case you weren’t all aware, sometimes putting a face to a name makes it real.  These are just the Canadian soldiers that gave their lives for other’s freedom…

 
 First name
 Last name
 Rank
 Unit
 Province
 Date of incident
 

 Prescott
 Shipway
 Sergeant
 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Saskatchewan
 September 7, 2008
 

 Andrew
 Grenon
 Corporal
 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Ontario
 September 3, 2008
 

 Chad
 Horn
 Private
 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Alberta
 September 3, 2008
 

 Mike
 Seggie
 Corporal
 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Manitoba
 September 3, 2008
 

 Shawn
 Eades
 Sergeant
 1 Combat Engineer Regiment
 Ontario
 August 20, 2008
 

 Stephan
 Stock
 Sapper
 1 Combat Engineer Regiment
 British Columbia
 August 20, 2008
 

 Dustin
 Wasden
 Corporal
 1 Combat Engineer Regiment
 Saskatchewan
 August 20, 2008
 

 Erin
 Doyle
 Master Corporal
 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 British Columbia
 August 11, 2008
 

 Josh
 Roberts
 Master Corporal
 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry
 Saskatchewan
 August 9, 2008
 

 James
 Arnal
 Corporal
 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry
 Manitoba
 July 18, 2008
 

 Colin
 Wilmot
 Private
 1 Field Ambulance
 Alberta
 July 6, 2008
 

 Brendan
 Downey
 Corporal
 Military Police Detachment
 Saskatchewan
 July 4, 2008
 

 Jonathan
 Snyder
 Captain
 1st Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 British Columbia
 June 7, 2008
 

 Richard
 Leary
 Captain
 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Ontario
 June 3, 2008
 

 Michael
 Starker
 Corporal
 15th Field Ambulance
 Alberta
 May 6, 2008
 

 Terry
 Street
 Private
 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Quebec
 April 4, 2008
 

 Jason
 Boyes
 Sergeant
 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Manitoba
 March 16, 2008
 

 Jérémie
 Ouellet
 Bombardier
 1st Royal Canadian Horse Artillery
 Quebec
 March 11, 2008
 

 Michael
 Hayakaze
 Trooper
 Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians)
 Alberta
 March 2, 2008
 

 Étienne
 Gonthier
 Corporal
 5e Régiment du génie de combat
 Quebec
 January 23, 2008
 

 Richard
 Renaud
 Trooper
 12e Régiment blindé du Canada
 Quebec
 January 15, 2008
 

 Eric
 Labbé
 Corporal
 2nd Battalion, Royal 22e Régiment
 Quebec
 January 6, 2008
 

 Hani
 Massouh
 Warrant officer
 2nd Battalion, Royal 22e Régiment
 Quebec
 January 6, 2008
 

 Jonathan
 Dion
 Gunner
 5e Régiment d'artillerie légère du Canada
 Quebec
 December 30, 2007
 

 Nicolas
 Beauchamp
 Corporal
 5th Field Ambulance, 5 Area Support Group
 Quebec
 November 17, 2007
 

 Michel
 Lévesque
 Private
 3rd Battalion, Royal 22e Régiment
 Quebec
 November 17, 2007
 

 Nathan
 Hornburg
 Corporal
 The King's Own Calgary Regiment
 Alberta
 September 24, 2007
 

 Raymond
 Ruckpaul
 Major
 Armoured Corps, The Royal Canadian Dragoons
 Ontario
 August 29, 2007
 

 Christian
 Duchesne
 Master corporal
 5th Field Ambulance, 5 Area Support Group
 Quebec
 August 22, 2007
 

 Mario
 Mercier
 Master Warrant officer
 2nd Battalion, Royal 22e Régiment
 Quebec
 August 22, 2007
 

 Simon
 Longtin
 Private
 3rd Battalion, Royal 22e Régiment
 Quebec
 August 19, 2007
 

 Jordan
 Anderson
 Corporal
 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Nunavut
 July 4, 2007
 

 Cole
 Bartsch
 Corporal
 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Alberta
 July 4, 2007
 

 Colin
 Bason
 Master corporal
 The Royal Westminster Regiment
 British Columbia
 July 4, 2007
 

 Matthew
 Dawe
 Captain
 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Ontario
 July 4, 2007
 

 Jefferson
 Francis
 Captain
 1st Royal Canadian Horse Artillery
 New Brunswick
 July 4, 2007
 

 Lane
 Watkins
 Private
 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Manitoba
 July 4, 2007
 

 Stephen
 Bouzane
 Corporal
 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Newfoundland and Labrador
 June 20, 2007
 

 Christos
 Karigiannis
 Sergeant
 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Quebec
 June 20, 2007
 

 Joel
 Wiebe
 Private
 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Alberta
 June 20, 2007
 

 Darryl
 Caswell
 Trooper
 Royal Canadian Dragoons
 Ontario
 June 11, 2007
 

 Darrell
 Priede
 Master corporal
 Army News Team, 3 Area Support Group
 Ontario
 May 30, 2007
 

 Matthew
 McCully
 Corporal
 2nd Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group Headquarters and Signal Squadron
 Ontario
 May 25, 2007
 

 Anthony
 Klumpenhouwer
 Master corporal
 Canadian Special Operations Forces Command
 Ontario
 April 18, 2007
 

 Patrick
 Pentland
 Trooper
 Royal Canadian Dragoons
 New Brunswick
 April 11, 2007
 

 Allan
 Stewart
 Master corporal
 Royal Canadian Dragoons
 New Brunswick
 April 11, 2007
 

 David
 Greenslade
 Private
 2nd Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment
 New Brunswick
 April 8, 2007
 

 Kevin
 Kennedy
 Private
 2nd Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment
 Newfoundland and Labrador
 April 8, 2007
 

 Donald
 Lucas
 Sergeant
 2nd Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment
 Newfoundland and Labrador
 April 8, 2007
 

 Brent
 Poland
 Corporal
 2nd Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment
 Ontario
 April 8, 2007
 

 Christopher
 Stannix
 Corporal
 Princess Louise Fusiliers
 Nova Scotia
 April 8, 2007
 

 Aaron
 Williams
 Corporal
 2nd Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment
 New Brunswick
 April 8, 2007
 

 Kevin
 Megeney
 Corporal
 1st Battalion, The Nova Scotia Highlanders (North)
 Nova Scotia
 March 6, 2007
 

 Robert
 Girouard
 Chief Warrant officer
 1st Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment
 New Brunswick
 November 27, 2006
 

 Albert
 Storm
 Corporal
 1st Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment
 Ontario
 November 27, 2006
 

 Darcy
 Tedford
 Sergeant
 1st Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment
 Alberta
 October 14, 2006
 

 Blake
 Williamson
 Private
 1st Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment
 Ontario
 October 14, 2006
 

 Mark
 Wilson
 Trooper
 Royal Canadian Dragoons
 Ontario
 October 7, 2006
 

 Craig
 Gillam
 Sergeant
 Royal Canadian Dragoons
 Newfoundland and Labrador
 October 3, 2006
 

 Robert
 Mitchell
 Corporal
 Royal Canadian Dragoons
 Ontario
 October 3, 2006
 

 Josh
 Klukie
 Private
 1st Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment
 Ontario
 September 29, 2006
 

 Glen
 Arnold
 Corporal
 2nd Field Ambulance
 Ontario
 September 18, 2006
 

 David
 Byers
 Private
 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Ontario
 September 18, 2006
 

 Shane
 Keating
 Corporal
 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Saskatchewan
 September 18, 2006
 

 Keith
 Morley
 Corporal
 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Manitoba
 September 18, 2006
 

 Mark
 Graham
 Private
 1st Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment
 Ontario
 September 4, 2006
 

 William
 Cushley
 Private
 1st Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment
 Ontario
 September 3, 2006
 

 Frank
 Mellish
 Warrant officer
 1st Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment
 Nova Scotia
 September 3, 2006
 

 Richard
 Nolan
 Warrant officer
 1st Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment
 Newfoundland and Labrador
 September 3, 2006
 

 Shane
 Stachnik
 Sergeant
 2nd Combat Engineer Regiment
 Alberta
 September 3, 2006
 

 David
 Braun
 Corporal
 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Saskatchewan
 August 22, 2006
 

 Andrew
 Eykelenboom
 Corporal
 1st Field Ambulance
 British Columbia
 August 11, 2006
 

 Jeffrey
 Walsh
 Master corporal
 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Saskatchewan
 August 9, 2006
 

 Raymond
 Arndt
 Master corporal
 The Loyal Edmonton Regiment
 Alberta
 August 5, 2006
 

 Kevin
 Dallaire
 Private
 1st Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Alberta
 August 3, 2006
 

 Vaughan
 Ingram
 Sergeant
 1st Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Newfoundland and Labrador
 August 3, 2006
 

 Bryce
 Keller
 Corporal
 1st Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Saskatchewan
 August 3, 2006
 

 Christopher
 Reid
 Corporal
 1st Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Nova Scotia
 August 3, 2006
 

 Francisco
 Gomez
 Corporal
 1st Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Alberta
 July 22, 2006
 

 Jason
 Warren
 Corporal
 The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada
 Quebec
 July 22, 2006
 

 Anthony
 Boneca
 Corporal
 Lake Superior Scottish Regiment
 Ontario
 July 9, 2006
 

 Nichola
 Goddard
 Captain
 1st Royal Canadian Horse Artillery
 Alberta
 May 17, 2006
 

 Matthew
 Dinning
 Corporal
 2nd Military Police Platoon
 Ontario
 April 22, 2006
 

 Myles
 Mansell
 Bombardier
 5th (British Columbia) Field Artillery Regiment
 British Columbia
 April 22, 2006
 

 Randy
 Payne
 Corporal
 CFB/ASU Wainwright Military Police Platoon
 Ontario
 April 22, 2006
 

 William
 Turner
 Lieutenant
 Land Force Western Area Headquarters
 Ontario
 April 22, 2006
 

 Robert
 Costall
 Private
 1st Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Ontario
 March 29, 2006
 

 Paul
 Davis
 Corporal
 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Nova Scotia
 March 2, 2006
 

 Timothy
 Wilson
 Master corporal
 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Alberta
 March 2, 2006
 

 Glyn
 Berry
 Diplomat
 Department of Foreign Affairs, Canada
 Wales
 January 15, 2006
 

 Braun
 Woodfield
 Private
 2nd Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment
 Nova Scotia
 November 24, 2005
 

 Jamie
 Murphy
 Corporal
 1st Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment
 Newfoundland and Labrador
 January 27, 2004
 

 Robbie
 Beerenfenger
 Corporal
 3rd Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment
 Ontario
 October 2, 2003
 

 Robert
 Short
 Sergeant
 3rd Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment
 New Brunswick
 October 2, 2003
 

 Ainsworth
 Dyer
 Corporal
 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Quebec
 April 18, 2002
 

 Richard
 Green
 Private
 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Nova Scotia
 April 18, 2002
 

 Marc
 Léger
 Sergeant
 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Ontario
 April 18, 2002
 

 Nathan
 Smith
 Private
 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
 Nova Scotia
 April 18, 2002
 
 
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 16, 2008, 20:17:03
Thank you very much from the bottom of my broken heart. Mike Seggie is my son and was KIA in Afghanistan. Your words are comforting to me. :salute:
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: milnews.ca on November 23, 2008, 09:55:53
Latest numbers, from Angus Reid (http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/32251/canadians_ponder_repatriation_of_omar_khadr) - full results attached as .pdf below.

Canadians Ponder Repatriation of Omar Khadr
Angus Reid Global Monitor : Polls & Research, 23 Nov 08
News release link (http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/32251/canadians_ponder_repatriation_of_omar_khadr)

Adults in Canada remain divided over the fate of Omar Khadr, according to a poll by Angus Reid Strategies released by the Toronto Star. 42 per cent of respondents would demand Khadr’s repatriation to face due process under Canadian Law, while 37 per cent would leave Khadr to face trial by military commission in Guantanamo Bay.

In the event U.S. president-elect Barack Obama shuts down the Guantanamo Bay detention facility, 48 per cent of respondents would repatriate Khadr, while 41 per cent would transfer him to the United States to face federal prosecution there.

Omar Khadr—a Canadian born in Toronto and the son of al-Qaeda fighter Ahmed Said Khadr—was detained by the United States military in Afghanistan in July 2002, after allegedly throwing a grenade that killed a special forces medic. Omar Khadr was 15 at the time. He was transferred to the Guantanamo Bay detention facility in October 2002.

In June 2007, U.S. military judge Peter Brownback dismissed the charges of murder and terrorism against Omar Khadr, claiming he was authorized to try "unlawful enemy combatants" exclusively. An earlier review had deemed Omar Khadr was an "enemy combatant." However, the case against Omar Khadr was reopened in September 2007, when the new Court of Military Commission Review ruled that Brownback’s decision was in error.

In April, William Kuebler—Khadr’s military lawyer—argued during a pre-trial hearing that the deadly grenade may have been thrown by an American soldier. In July, a report revealed that Canadian officials were aware of the harsh treatment that Khadr was subjected to in Guantanamo. According to the document, the U.S. military "deprived" Khadr of sleep for weeks in order to make him "more amenable and willing to talk."

On Nov. 20, Canadian foreign affairs minister Lawrence Cannon appeared to rule out any change in policy, saying, "He is being held and it’s our government’s intention to follow and respect the process that’s in place and, of course, to respect American sovereignty on this issue."

Khadr’s military trial is expected to start on Jan. 26, 2009.

Polling Data
As you may know, Canadian citizen Omar Khadr has spent more than six years in the Guantanamo Bay detention facility, charged with throwing a grenade that killed a U.S. soldier in a July 2002 firefight in Afghanistan. Khadr, the son of al-Qaeda fighter Ahmed Said Khadr, was 15 when the alleged incident took place. Which of these policy options would you prefer in this case?
Nov. 2008
Jul. 2008
Apr. 2008

Demanding Khadr’s repatriation to face due process under Canadian Law
42%
37%
43%

Leaving Khadr to face trial by military commission in Guantanamo Bay
37%
38%
38%

Not sure
20%
26%
19%


As you may know, United States president-elect Barack Obama has criticized the existence of the Guantanamo Bay detention facility, and there is speculation that he may order its closure. If the Guantanamo Bay facility is indeed shut down, which of these policy options would you prefer in the case of Omar Khadr?

Repatriating Khadr to face due process under Canadian law
48%

Transferring Khadr to the United States to face federal prosecution there
41%

Not sure
11%

Source: Angus Reid Strategies / Toronto Star
Methodology: Online interviews with 1,002 Canadian adults, conducted on Nov. 14 to Nov. 15, 2008. Margin of error is 3.1 per cent.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: ARMY_101 on November 23, 2008, 12:22:02
I remain convinced that Khadr should be facing prosecution through the United States court system.  This is someone who supposedly killed a U.S. soldier in a U.S.-occupied area, so they can be the ones to hold his trial and find whether or not he is guilty.  Bringing him back to Canada is only going to allow people to run to Canada and claim sanctuary from prosecution.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Snafu-Bar on November 23, 2008, 12:38:38

Considering that Khadr was taken into custody in Afghanistan by the US military, he IS thier property to do with as they see fit. Either they will put him through the system and seek to get a sentence on him or they will hand him over to Canadian authorities to deal with. Either way he WILL be put through the system in some capacity or other.
 
 If he kept in the states and is found guilty of the soldiers death then you can bet your bottom the US will seek to having him put in one of thier finest institutions for the rest of his existence or one step further and seek the death penalty for his actions.

 If he comes "home" to Canada and is put through the system anything can happen, my guess would be the bleeding hearts club will seek to get him a diamond encrusted soother, pat him on the back and turn him loose with a nice big multi-million dollar we're sorry cheque.  ::)

 Cheers.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: ARMY_101 on November 23, 2008, 13:00:46
[I don't care Editorial from Canadian Woman]

It seems to be on a slippery slope of equivocating all middle eastern people into terrorist groups.  If innocent people have been unfairly detained and abused, it is quite uncaring and unfair to say that you don't care because of the alleged connection between terrorism and these people.

Don't get me wrong, if they have done something wrong then get the information from them and ensure they pay for what they did.  But if they were just an innocent person who had nothing to do with any crime, turning a blind eye and saying "I don't care" will only allow for worse occurrences to take place without anyone questioning why.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on November 23, 2008, 14:00:29
IMHO, if the US gevernment intends to prosecute the fella..... DO IT!
Six years - it has dragged on waaaay too long & the longer it takes, the more of a farce it becomes.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: KevinB on November 23, 2008, 15:37:45
IMHO, if the US gevernment intends to prosecute the fella..... DO IT!
Six years - it has dragged on waaaay too long & the longer it takes, the more of a farce it becomes.


well honestly they can drag it out for 6 more and I would not shed a tear.

 frig him and the whole family.

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on November 23, 2008, 18:06:22
That's the good thing about living in a democracy, everyone is allowed to have his say & should feel free to express it...

if for nothing else, the US Government, with it's position that everyone should be entitled to a speedy trial - should get their act together and put the fella on trial.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Yrys on January 14, 2009, 22:40:36
Khadr charges will be dropped after inauguration: lawyers (http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/story.html?id=1169736)

NEWYORK -- Charges against Omar Khadr will be dropped "without prejudice" shortly
after Barack Obama's inauguration Jan. 20 as president, the Canada-born terror
suspect's U.S. military lawyers predicted Monday.

The technical arrangement will effectively suspend the Jan. 26 start date for his trial
before a military commission at the U.S. naval base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Mr. Obama's advisers say one of the new president's first duties in office will be to
order the closing of the Guantanamo detention camps. Under the Bush administration,
up to 80 detainees were to eventually face trial, including Khalid Shaikh Mohammed (KSM),
who has said he was responsible for planning the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks "from A to Z."

Mr. Khadr, 22, is accused of killing a U.S. soldier in a firefight when he was 15, and his
trial is the only one currently scheduled to begin. "We can't imagine that the new president
will move to close the camps without also addressing the military commissions," said
Rebecca Synder, one of Mr. Khadr's Pentagon-appointed lawyers. "Otherwise, it may seem
that he may end up giving KSM a fairer trial than Omar Mr. Khadr, a former child soldier."

Effective suspension of the charges will result in increased pressure on Prime Minister
Stephen Harper to find a formula to return Toronto-born Mr. Khadr to Canada, according
to navy Lt.-Cmdr. Bill Kuebler, Mr. Khadr's lead Pentagon-appointed lawyer.

"I still think it is appropriate that he returns under certain supervisory conditions, but I also
believe that it is possible the window for achieving that is now closing," he said. "We don't
know exactly what Mr. Obama will do regarding this case. But there is a chance right now
to ensure an arrangement is in place that gets Omar the things he needs for rehabilitation."

Harper said Monday he would wait to see what the Mr. Obama administration does with
Mr. Khadr before deciding whether Canada's position should be changed. "We have a very
different situation with Mr. Mr. Khadr. He is accused of a very serious thing and there is a
legal process," he said.

With Mr. Obama weighing an imminent decision to order the closure of the U.S. military
prison at Guantanamo Bay, leading human-rights agencies on Monday appealed for him
to halt the looming trial. At a news conference in Washington, Senator Romeo Dallaire
and several leading Guantanamo critics warned Mr. Obama will betray his campaign
promises if he allows the 22-year-old Canadian to stand trial on Jan. 26.

In a letter to Mr. Obama, the group argued Mr. Khadr is a child soldier who should not
face military justice at Guantanamo. "Really, what we're asking for here is not even for
president-elect Mr. Obama to make a judgment about Omar Mr. Khadr's innocence or
guilt -- or about his case -- but for his administration to call a moratorium, to freeze the
proceedings," said Marsha Levick, the legal director of the Juvenile Law Center,
a Washington-based advocacy group.

If the trial opens as planned, "it would be an enormous disappointment for those of us
who have watched the campaign and trusted president-elect Mr. Obama's remarks
with respect to his own views on the military proceedings," Ms. Levick said.

The future of the Guantanamo military prison looms as one of the biggest facing
Mr. Obama in the days following his inauguration. The Associated Press reported Monday
the incoming president is expected to issue an executive order within his first week in
office ordering the prison closed, and to determine how best to relocate its 250 remaining
detainees.

But that may leave unresolved the pressing question of Mr. Khadr's trial in a military
commission process Mr. Obama himself has declared a "dangerously flawed legal" system.
"If the proceedings against Omar Mr. Khadr go on, and go forward Jan. 26, (Mr. Khadr)
will in fact be the first child tried in the United States for war crimes in our history," said
Ms. Levick.

A military commission judge last summer dismissed arguments by defence lawyers,
who cited the UN optional protocol on children in armed conflict as prohibiting Mr. Khadr
from facing a war-crimes tribunal. The U.S. signed the protocol in 2000.

Brooke Anderson, Mr. Obama's national security spokeswoman, declined to comment on
Mr. Khadr's case Monday.

Sen. Dallaire, a former Canadian military general who has led efforts in Parliament to r
epatriate Mr. Khadr, said his staff has been in touch with Mr. Obama's transition team
about the case. With Harper's government refusing to intervene, Sen. Dallaire said he's
still hopeful Mr. Obama will order Mr. Khadr released into Canadian custody.

"I have gotten nowhere with the Canadian government. Although we have attempted
to convince the prime minister that standing aloof from this process is inappropriate ...
he refused to open up a conversation with the Americans in regards to Mr. Khadr,"
Sen. Dallaire said. "If the Canadians don't want to ask for him ... then maybe the
solution is [for Mr. Obama] to offer him to the Canadians."

The spokeswoman for Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon said Monday that
Canada's position on Mr. Khadr has not changed. "We will be following with interest
any developments under the incoming administration of president-elect Mr. Obama,"
said Cannon's spokeswoman, Catherine Loubier.

Liberal foreign affairs critic Bryon Wilfert repeated the Opposition's call for Harper to
ask for Mr. Khadr to be repatriated, just as western countries, such as Australia and
Britain, have done with their nationals in Guantanamo. And he reiterated that Mr. Khadr
should "face justice" from Canadian courts for the crimes he's accused of, and not simply
be set free. "He should come home -- period. Whether Guantanamo is closed or not is
a secondary issue," Wilfert told Canwest News Service.

"Closing Guantanamo isn't going to be done overnight, in any event. Mr. Obama's team
is going to have to look very closely at it." Mr. Khadr's legal allies include five leading
international human-rights organizations -- Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch,
the American Civil Liberties Union, Human Rights First and the Coalition to Stop the Use
of Child Soldiers -- that made separate written appeals to Mr. Obama on Monday.

"We urge that, upon taking office, you act quickly to suspend the military commissions,
drop the military commission charges against Mr. Khadr, and either repatriate him for
rehabilitation in Canada or transfer him to federal court and prosecute him in accordance
with international juvenile justice and fair trial standards," the groups said in their letter.

Also speaking on Mr. Khadr's behalf was Ishmael Beah, a former child soldier in Sierra
Leone who last year rose to international prominence with the publication of a bestselling
memoir about his wartime experiences.

Mr. Khadr's conviction for war crimes would signal a double standard in the way American
policy treats child soldiers, Beah said. "Are we sending a message out there that says if
a child that engages in war and is forced in war in any other country than the United States,
then we are able to forgive them?" Beah asked. "But if a child is used in war in ways that it
takes the life of a U.S. citizen, then we are not able to look at them as a child? That is not
the kind of legal precedent we want to set."

During his presidential campaign, Mr. Obama was a fierce critic of both the Guantanamo
prison and the military commission system established by the Bush administration to try
enemy combatants detained after the 9/11 terror attacks. But only last weekend, Mr. Obama
said his pledge to close the prison likely would prove more difficult than he expected, and that
it would be "a challenge" to shut it down during his first 100 days in office.

"It is more difficult than I think a lot of people realize," he told ABC News. Mr. Obama said
he was struggling with "how to balance creating a process that adheres to rule of law, habeas
corpus, basic principles of Anglo-American legal system, but doing it in a way that doesn't result
in releasing people who are intent on blowing us up."

With files from Mike Blanchfield, Canwest News Service
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on January 15, 2009, 09:24:40
What kind of sentence does a criminal get for murder / manslaughter in the states ?

If the sentence is anything like 12 - 15 years...
do the conviction ASAP, sentencing usually doubles the value of the time served prior to conviction....

And return him to Afghanistan where they caught him in the 1st place.....
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Hamish Seggie on January 15, 2009, 09:31:07
My solution:

The Government of Canada should take responsibilty for this poor young misguided person. Bring him back to Canada.

THEN: Deport him and his terrorist family to their country of origin.

I think you all know why I feel this way.

Sorry for the rant.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: George Wallace on January 15, 2009, 13:09:30
What kind of sentence does a criminal get for murder / manslaughter in the states ?

If the sentence is anything like 12 - 15 years...
do the conviction ASAP, sentencing usually doubles the value of the time served prior to conviction....

And return him to Afghanistan where they caught him in the 1st place.....
>:D

Sounds like a "Catch and Release" policy that would be more effective than bringing him to Canada.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: TCBF on January 21, 2009, 03:50:44
well honestly they can drag it out for 6 more and I would not shed a tear.
 frig him and the whole family.

- At least the kid had the balls to put his *** on the line for what he believed in.  I'll take him anyday over the Limosine-Fedayeen who bad-mouth Canada while selling drugs in Toronto but wouldn't dare go toe-to-toe with NATO in the sandbox.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Thucydides on January 21, 2009, 16:09:30
Interesting tie in to another case:

http://ezralevant.com/2009/01/charles-adler-show-today.html

Quote
Charles Adler Show today
By Ezra Levant on January 20, 2009 12:43 PM | Permalink | Comments (12) | Trackback

I'll be on Charles Adler's national radio show today at 4 p.m. ET, 2 p.m. MT, to talk about Omar Khadr's statement that Maher Arar was indeed at a terrorist training camp in Afghanistan.
I've just re-read Kevin Steel's story in the Western Standard. It's amazing reading. Here are some excerpts:

The commission, headed by Justice Dennis O'Connor, ran for two-and-a-half years and cost taxpayers $23 million. Yet in all that time and for all that money, no medical evidence was presented that demonstrated Arar had been physically tortured. No doctor testified. A psychiatrist did testify about the psychological effects of torture, but on physical torture, none.

Arar was never cross-examined on his allegations because he did not testify at the commission that bears his name.

...While he was imprisoned, Arar, who was closely monitored by the Syrians, made only one negative statement to the Canadian consular officials who visited him. On Aug. 14, 2003, he gave them the dimensions of his cell. "Being kept in a three-by-six-by-seven-foot cell obviously constitutes psychological torture, which is worse, and that was Maher's whole point; it's not about the beatings, it's, 'I can't survive living in this cell another day,'" says Pither. (David Milgaard spent 22 years in a Canadian jail after being wrongfully convicted of murder. He received $10 million for his wasted years, slightly less than Arar got for his ten months.)

...And though the Arar commission went out of its way to stress that Arar is innocent, it also underplayed facts that demonstrated why Canadian police were suspicious of him back in 2001--his frenetic cross-border travel, for instance, and his residence in Framingham, Mass., are barely mentioned in the 1,200-page final report or in the 12,000-plus pages of testimony.




…in his Nov. 4, 2004, statement to the press, Arar told of being whipped with a two-inch-thick electrical cable. "They hit me with it everywhere on my body. They mostly aimed for my palms, but sometimes missed and hit my wrists; they were sore and red for three weeks," Arar states. Arar alleges his interrogators also hit him on his hips and lower back. "They used the cable on the second and third day, and after that mostly beat me with their hands, hitting me in the stomach and on the back of my neck, and slapping me on the face. Where they hit me with the cables, my skin turned blue for two or three weeks, but there was no bleeding," Arar stated. According to his own timeline, these horrors occurred between Oct. 11 and Oct. 16, 2002.

Yet the entire time he was in the Syrian prison, the Canadian officials who visited with Arar saw no signs of physical abuse. As for his condition when he got out, one Canadian eyewitness-- speaking to the Western Standard on condition of anonymity--who saw Arar in Syria only moments after his release from jail, put it this way: "If you call not being able to shower for 10 months torture, then I guess he was tortured. But from what I saw, he didn't look like he had been tortured."

Arar received a total of nine consular visits during his 10-month ordeal. The first of these was only one week after the alleged beatings stopped, so that would have been well before Arar, in his own words, says his injuries healed. On Oct. 23, 2002, Leo Martel, an experienced consular official, met with Arar. The diplomat described the visit in a note to his superiors written immediately afterward. The Syrians were present at all times and obligated everyone to speak in Arabic. He reported that Arar walked normally; the two men shook hands and Martel described the handshake as "normal" and stated that Arar did not withdraw his hand. The meeting lasted a half-hour. Martel wrote that Arar "looked like a frightened person," yet appeared otherwise healthy, but added, "Of course, it is difficult to assess." He saw no bruising. The commission report states, "Mr. Martel saw no apparent signs of sore or red wrists or palms, and no blue skin around Mr. Arar's face or neck."

Martel would visit Arar eight more times, sometimes alone, sometimes in the company of others. All his consular reports were made public at the Arar commission. No signs of physical abuse were ever observed. Even after Arar was released, he did not speak of beatings. On the plane returning to Canada, when Martel asked Arar about physical torture, all he would say was, "They have other means.

John Thompson, president of the Mackenzie Institute and an expert on terrorism, has met people who have been tortured in exactly the same way that Arar alleges. To him, Arar's account sounds fabricated. "If you're being whipped, there are permanent marks. A cable like that would leave scars, it would split the skin. Also, if you were being beaten around the hands with it, it would break your fingers. That's what these things do," he says. Ten years ago, he met an Iraqi who had been beaten with a two-inch electrical cable. "He lifted up his shirt and showed me the welter of scars on his back, and then pulled his arm out of his sleeve and there were marks on the upper arm. Whipping leaves some horrific scars."

…Unfortunately, torture allegations are quite common. Even the 18 accused terrorists who were arrested in Ontario last summer on charges of plotting to blow up the CBC and CN Tower and behead the prime minister claimed they were tortured at the Maplehurst Detention Centre. Such accusations have become standard fare; when training its recruits, al Qaeda teaches them to make a claim of torture as soon as they are put before a magistrate, or the media. And refugees have been making claims of torture all over the world for eons. In order to sort the real charges from the exaggerations or lies, in 1999, the United Nations created the Manual on the Effective Investigation and Documentation of Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, otherwise known as the Istanbul Protocol. Its 84 pages are full of detailed instructions. Nowhere, in the whole of the Arar story--in mountains of press clips, in Arar's lawsuits, in the O'Connor commission itself--is the Istanbul Protocol mentioned. Specifically, there is no reference to it in the Toope Report, and that might seem strange because, as the commission's press release made everyone aware, Toope has experience with the UN. Toope, now president of the University of British Columbia, did not return a request for an interview.

… Arar and his wife, Monia Mazigh, an economics professor and one-time candidate for the NDP, have said on several occasions that he has never been to Afghanistan and never had any desire to go there. Like the torture claims, this statement has gone unchallenged. At one point, while Arar was incarcerated and after the confession, Canada's Foreign Affairs department contacted the Arar family in order to obtain any documentation establishing Maher's whereabouts that year. They produced none. And it's not like the RCMP or CSIS were incapable of finding information; early in the RCMP investigation they turned up a gun permit Arar obtained in 1992. In fact, there was never any evidence presented at the Arar commission as to his whereabouts in that year. Instead, there were lengthy discussions downplaying any significance attached to being in Afghanistan at that time. In his final report, O'Connor skirts the whole issue and instead presents a chapter titled "Background Information on the Afghanistan Camps," in which the reader is treated to a little history primer, the conclusion of which can be summarized as: just because someone might have been at a terrorist camp in Afghanistan in 1993, doesn't necessarily mean they were a terrorist.


I really have just one question left: will Canadian taxpayers be getting our $10.5 million back?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on January 21, 2009, 18:40:19
Interesting tie in to another case:
http://ezralevant.com/2009/01/charles-adler-show-today.html
Might sound interesting Except..... they have such a dubious pedigree that they might just as well be a faerie tail
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: NL_engineer on January 22, 2009, 18:42:53
Quote
just because someone might have been at a terrorist camp in Afghanistan in 1993, doesn't necessarily mean they were a terrorist.

What kind of dumb a** wrote this?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on January 22, 2009, 18:59:46
What kind of dumb a** wrote this?

If it waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck, has feathers, and swims on the surface of water, allbeit happliy at that, its a duck, but not in the eyes of the author of that quote.

Very frustrating.

Cheers,

Wes

Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: proudnurse on January 23, 2009, 05:01:42
And somewhere out there, a Medic's family deserves justice for thier son

Edited to ad an article I've found

Kitchener Waterloo Record Thurs; Jan 22, 2009 Reproduced in accordance with fairdealings.
article link: http://news.therecord.com/article/475370

Obama halts Khadr trial
Brennan Linsley, The Associated Press

GUANTANAMO BAY, CUBA

A tiny crack appeared in Ottawa's long-standing reluctance to bring Omar Khadr home yesterday after a military judge called a 120-day halt to the Guantanamo Bay prisoner's war-crimes trial at the behest of U.S. President Barack Obama.

And, a senior Obama aide tells The Associated Press that Obama plans to sign an executive order today to close the Guantanamo Bay detention centre within a year and halt military trials of terror suspects held there.

Obama, his presidency just hours old, ordered prosecutors to request the hiatus late Tuesday in order to allow for time to review the case of Khadr and 244 other detainees held at this infamous prison, according to prosecution documents.

That move prompted signals from Defence Minister Peter MacKay that the federal Conservative government would take Obama's cue and re-examine its oft-repeated position that due process in the U.S. should be allowed to run its course.

"Everyone involved in these cases will be reassessing their positions,'' MacKay said in Ottawa.

That appeared to bring out Kory Teneycke, a spokesperson for Prime Minister Stephen Harper, who reiterated the government's more familiar message: Khadr faces serious charges and the U.S. process must run its course.

"We are just not going to get into hypotheticals around different scenarios,'' Teneycke said.

"We'll simply wait and see what comes forward from the United States around this issue. We'll address other questions if and when they arise.''

Khadr's defence, which had earlier pushed hard for the charges to be stayed, did not oppose yesterday's motion.

"The practical effect of this ruling is to pronounce this military process dead,'' Lt.-Cmdr. Bill Kuebler, Khadr's lawyer, said minutes after the judge, Col. Patrick Parrish, granted the continuance in a single-sentence ruling.

Reached in Toronto, Khadr's older sister expressed mixed feelings at the news.

"I'm glad my brother is not going to trial, but I really would have preferred he was coming home, and he's not,'' Zaynab Khadr said in an interview. "He has been there for six years. Delaying justice is not justice at all.''

Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff called on Prime Minister Stephen Harper's Conservative government to take the necessary steps to bring Khadr back to Canada.

"I don't pronounce on his innocence or guilt, I just think enough is enough,'' Ignatieff said in Montreal. "I want to make it clear -- I don't have an ounce of anti-Americanism in my blood. I have great respect for the constitutional and legal traditions of the United States of America, but I think Guantanamo has been a disgrace to those traditions.''

In addition to Khadr's trial, Obama's order also resulted in a temporary halt to the proceedings for the five accused co-conspirators in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Family members of 9/11 victims, gathered in Guantanamo to watch the proceedings, were outraged.

"Mr. Obama has offered up the lives of almost 3,000 Americans on the . . . altar of political correctness,'' said an angry Don Arias, whose brother Adam died in the 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center.

The options now open to Obama, who during his election campaign promised to shut down Guantanamo Bay and who has since signalled doing so would be among his first priorities, include attempting to try the detainees in a U.S. federal or military court.

He could also establish a special terrorist court, although most observers consider that unlikely, in part because Democrats in Congress oppose such a move.

Detainees not considered dangerous could be sent back home.

The Toronto-born Khadr, 22, is charged under an internationally condemned military commissions process with killing an American soldier in violation of the rules of war.

It is alleged he tossed the hand grenade that killed Sgt. Chris Speer following a four-hour firefight near Khost, Afghanistan, in July 2002, when he was just 15.

Khadr is the lone westerner still held at Guantanamo, but Harper has steadfastly refused to get involved, saying the proceedings here had to run their course.

Harper can no longer "hide behind'' that argument, Kuebler said.

The defence had wanted all charges stayed against Khadr and the other detainees, but Kuebler said he'll settle for the suspension, which lasts until May 20, 2009, provided it leads to serious discussions about getting Khadr home.

"He is anxious, he is nervous, he doesn't quite know what is going to happen -- none of us does,'' Kuebler said of his client.

Guantanamo Executive Order

(Draft, dated January XX, 2009)

Draft says: "In view of the significant concerns raised by these detentions, both within the United States and internationally, prompt and appropriate disposition of the individuals currently detained at Guantanamo and closure of the facility would further the national security and foreign policy interests of the United States and the interests of justice.''

Applies to: 245 men at Guantanamo.

What could happen next: 60 to 120 Guantanamo prisoners may be considered low-threat detainees and transferred to other countries, either for rehabilitation or release. Other detainees could be imprisoned in their home countries. The 120-day suspension could be extended indefinitely if the review concludes that current military trial system should end. If that happens, the cases likely will be heard by federal courts under long-standing military or civilian criminal law.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: geo on January 23, 2009, 12:00:25
Proudnurse,

The medic’s family deserves justice for their son… certainly

I agree that the family should.  However, let’s put things into proper perspective.  The medic was with troops who were conducting an assault onto an enemy defensive position.  He knowingly did go into harms way with his comrades & was just as likely to have gotten shot dead or blown up by an IED while moving forward.  It is not as if the medics were in a separate group from the US soldiers who fought that day – they were shoulder to shoulder with the bayonets throughout a four (4) hour firefight & anyone shooting at the soldiers would be shooting at the medic.

If this had been a conventional war with two uniformed armies facing off & one medic had gotten killed by accident (or intent) during a battle – the enemy soldier would have been disarmed & detained…. eventually to be released – returned to his homeland.

Has the US proceeded with the arrest, detention, trial and imprisonment of all other combatants who have fought them between 2001 and 2009?  The US has released hundreds of these detainees over the last nine (9) years.  Many of them very dangerous combatants who have returned to the field – killing others while possibly getting themselves killed…

So why have they stubbornly hung onto 15 year old Omar Khadr for 6-7 years?

- Because he was born a national of a Western Country?
- Because he is the son of an AQ leader?
- Because he was an “illegal combatant” – a foreign national found alongside AQ & TB illegal combatants?
- Because he was a child soldier?
- Because he killed a Medic with a grenade tossed over a wall – a device used against a group of soldiers?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Jungle on January 23, 2009, 15:19:02
So why have they stubbornly hung onto 15 year old Omar Khadr for 6-7 years?

- Because he was born a national of a Western Country?
- Because he is the son of an AQ leader?
- Because he was an “illegal combatant” – a foreign national found alongside AQ & TB illegal combatants?
- Because he was a child soldier?
- Because he killed a Medic with a grenade tossed over a wall – a device used against a group of soldiers?
All of the above; while I respect the democratic processes and the new POTUS's decision, I feel very little sympathy for the young Khadr and hope he will never be returned to a Canadian neighborhood.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: PanaEng on January 23, 2009, 17:49:34
All of the above; while I respect the democratic processes and the new POTUS's decision, I feel very little sympathy for the young Khadr and hope he will never be returned to a Canadian neighborhood.
Although I feel the same way about his whole family, at least in Canada we will be able to keep tabs on him and not join Al-queda like most of the other freed detainees sent back to Saudi, Yemen, Pak, etc.

cheers,
Frank
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: KevinB on January 24, 2009, 09:44:57
He gave up any claim to Canadian citizenship and protection of the Cdn gov when he joined Al-Queda and killed a American soldier.

  The only reason he should go to Canada is to be hung for treason. 

Some of these people are cancer, and there is nothing that can be done but kill them.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Fishbone Jones on January 24, 2009, 10:43:09
Although I feel the same way about his whole family, at least in Canada we will be able to keep tabs on him and not join Al-queda  like most of the other freed detainees sent back to Saudi, Yemen, Pak, etc.

cheers,
Frank

You're kidding, right Frank?
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: PanaEng on January 24, 2009, 11:07:29
You're kidding, right Frank?
Actually, not this time. There have been many reports of recently released detainees joining back with Al-queda in different places - maybe they are being tracked, I don't know. If released back in Canada, CSIS or the RCMP could keep an eye on him and the people he contacts. We don't have many assets overseas that could do that.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Fishbone Jones on January 24, 2009, 11:14:50
Oh, I have no doubt they are rejoining their former comrades. I was more sceptical of us being able to keep an eye on Khadr. Unless he's granted 'high priority target' status, we don't have the resources to watch him once he walks out his front door. We can't even keep track of identified illegals in this country.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on January 24, 2009, 11:17:06
Yup, he will rejoin only this time he will be collecting welfare while he's doing it....
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: Fishbone Jones on January 24, 2009, 11:44:44
Yup, he will rejoin only this time he will be collecting welfare while he's doing it....
....and likely a medical pension to boot.
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: PanaEng on January 24, 2009, 12:42:06
- At least the kid had the balls to put his *** on the line for what he believed in.  I'll take him anyday over the Limosine-Fedayeen who bad-mouth Canada while selling drugs in Toronto but wouldn't dare go toe-to-toe with NATO in the sandbox.
I wouldn't even give him that much credit. He was there because his dad and family were there. He was brainwashed into believing all that crap they believe in - that's all he knew an didn't have a choice but to be there. There comes a time when a person should "know better" and make the right decisions but without the right moral/value base how could anyone make the right decision? Their indoctrination makes them refuse any other ideas than those of their religious leaders - but that does not excuse them.

cheers,
Frank
Title: Re: The Khadr Thread
Post by: George Wallace on January 25, 2009, 10:48:17
Actually, not this time. There have been many reports of recently released detainees joining back with Al-queda in different places - maybe they are being tracked, I don't know. If released back in Canada, CSIS or the RCMP could keep an eye on him and the people he contacts. We don't have many assets overseas that could do that.