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Army.ca => Combat Elements => Topic started by: KablooeyintheWest on October 05, 2005, 12:44:56

Title: Designated Marksman
Post by: KablooeyintheWest on October 05, 2005, 12:44:56
Does the CF have such a thing as a designated marksma (not a sniper). How does one go about taking courses in marksmanship, if there are any, and can reservists qualify on this. Does anyone have any suggestions of how to get practice on the C7 rifle? (We only actually fire it like once or twice a year, which isn't much practice to get really good at a weapon)
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: George Wallace on October 05, 2005, 13:14:54
In a way there are 'Designated Marksmen', but nothing as glamorous as you think.  No 'special' courses.  Just being selected within a Section/Platoon/Unit as being the/one of the Best Shots and employed as such in any case that that unit sees fit.  In Riot Control, there are Designated Riflemen who will carry out Drills as Ordered should an incident escalate to the use of Deadly Force. 

On another note, you can qualify for your Marksmanship Badge during your PWT and have that qualification for a year, after which you have to qualify again.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: kkwd on October 07, 2005, 00:41:50
You might want to contact the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association or one of the provincial associations.  I don't have experience with any of these groups, but you may want to check them out. Maybe other army.ca members may have an opinion they can share concerning these organizations.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: KablooeyintheWest on October 08, 2005, 19:04:37
Hey, thanks a lot, i will check that out. By the way, does anyone have any information on these groups?
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: rogi on October 09, 2005, 01:44:18
you can also get on to DP2A infantry platoon support weapons course.  part of the course is learning to coach firers to group and zero the c-7, and zeroing the c6, c9.  i took the course and it helped me to become a better shooter.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: MikeH on October 09, 2005, 02:49:02
Go buy a 556mm(223 Remington)ieAR15 or some other weapon type and just go to your local civilian range and shoot alot. Practice makes perfect!!! :bullet:
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: paracowboy on October 09, 2005, 12:05:53
Go buy a 556mm(223 Remington)ieAR15 or some other weapon type and just go to your local civilian range and shoot alot. Practice makes perfect!!!
actually, troop, save yourself several hundred dollars and go buy a .22 LR rifle. The marksmanship principle remain the same, no matter the firearm employed. The rifle will be vastly less expensive. You will not draw the unwanted attention of others fearing you to be some sort nut with a 'scary army gun'. The ammo is hugely cheaper, allowing you to buy more, thus shoot more. There is even less recoil than with a 5.56 mm (.223 cal.), and less muzzle flash, and less "bang!" preventing the formation of bad habits - flinching, blinking, etc.

Get a .22 LR rifle. Shoot. Shoot some more.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: Old Ranger on October 09, 2005, 12:20:47
Shoot. Shoot some more.

You could also start out with a Pellet gun, for basement shooting. Good practice for breathing and posture(s).

Don't get me wrong, if you have access to a range or back woods......22LR.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: Britney Spears on October 09, 2005, 12:22:11
All the above posters are ROTL. The easiest way to become a designated marksman is to buy the biggest, blackest rifle scope you can find and swap it on to your rifle when your sect. commander isn't looking. An after market bipod wouldn't hurt, either, tie some scrim to your helmet and webbing, and don't forget the sunglasses too. When your picture shows up in the paper and on militaryphotos.net,  everyone on the planet will know EXACTLY who the designated marksman in your section is. 
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: Old Ranger on October 09, 2005, 12:25:33
All the above posters are ROTL. The easiest way to become a designated marksman is to buy the biggest, blackest rifle scope you can find and swap it on to your rifle when your sect. commander isn't looking. An after market bipod wouldn't hurt, either, tie some scrim to your helmet and webbing, and don't forget the sunglasses too. When your picture shows up in the paper and on militaryphotos.net,   everyone on the planet will know EXACTLY who the designated marksman in your section is.  

Fell of my chair, thanks...
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: KablooeyintheWest on October 14, 2005, 02:02:26
Ba ha ha ha. :P So would anyone else have any recommendations as to firearms I should invest in? Also, in the winnipeg region, what are some good ranges? does anyone know what i have to do to purchase a weapon, and registration and laws surrounding it, especcially and ar15. I personally don't find the bite of the c7 bad at all, nor its noise. I think i'd probablly prefer to train on a weapon as similiar weight and calibrewise.
RfnPhil
ps, what in the world does rotl mean??? ???
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: kkwd on October 14, 2005, 04:41:51
The AR-15 is designated as a restricted weapon. You can find all the info on such weapons on the following link to the Canadian Firearms Centre.

http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/info_for-renseignement/factsheets/restricted_e.asp (http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/info_for-renseignement/factsheets/restricted_e.asp)

It will mention PAL on this page, you need one of those. To get a PAL you need some safety training. Then you need to think of a purpose you want the AR-15, target shooting in your case. You must provide proof that you have access to an approved range or shooting club. Then the CFO may approve your request and let you acquire the rifle. After you have it in your mitts you need a Authorization to Transport (ATT). This is a permit to take the rifle to a range. It used to be called a Permit to Carry, I guess that title is no longer acceptable. The ATT is only good for 1 location at a time and even has a section to tell the route you take to the range from your home. Another consideration is storage. You will need a good steel gun safe. A filing cabinet with a lock or one of those wooden racks won't do. I should mention verifiers, they will enter the chain of command as well, but don't worry about that, it is minor stuff.

There may be some stuff i have missed, feel free to check the firearms centre site, they have loads of info there.

PS ROTL - Right Out To Lunch
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: sdimock on October 14, 2005, 13:46:41
So would anyone else have any recommendations as to firearms I should invest in?

Since you asked, 22 LR and shoot lots, spend your hard earned money on rounds not an AR15.

Myself and probably millions of other youngsters grew up shooting a Cooey .22 and I'm sure you could get one without breaking the bank.

The priciples of marksmanship are the same whether its a pistol or a sniper rifle.

I personally don't find the bite of the c7 bad at all, nor its noise. I think i'd probablly prefer to train on a weapon as similiar weight and calibrewise.

I don't know the specifics off the top of my head but a Cooey is similar in size to the C7.

Staying small calibre is a good idea, you could probably get an old 303 cheap as well but after 50 rounds your shoulder will try to convince you to stop.

You can shoot a 22 all day (if you have the rounds) and it won't hurt you, (you do need to keep aware of the barrel temperature).

As an aside the 22 isn't loud and if it's not a semi-automatic doesn't spit casings out as you fire, but I recommend ear plugs and safety glasses, protecting your eyes and ears is always a good call.

Chimo
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: Old Ranger on October 14, 2005, 21:46:02
You can shoot a 22 all day (if you have the rounds) and it won't hurt you, (you do need to keep aware of the barrel temperature).

Not just the Barrel temp.  Semi-auto Cooey sears can't handle too much and tend to turn full auto.......No not cool, very Dangerous!
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: KablooeyintheWest on October 14, 2005, 23:16:55
Crazy
BTW, thanks for that web address. How often do reg force guys get to do live fire ex's?
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: paracowboy on October 15, 2005, 00:14:06
How often do reg force guys get to do live fire ex's?
not nearly often enough. I have seen years where we have fired live twice. Once, being the test. "Odd, private Bloggins hasn't improved his scores at all since last year."
Gee, ya think?
Not that it makes me bitter, or anything.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: MikeH on October 15, 2005, 02:30:04
I have a cooey .22 cal its so old it has no serial number. :o.As for saying about buying  AR15/ 223 it would be nice to shoot same caliber as the C7.I dont i shoot a 270 win and a .22cal  maybe 1 day.The only thing i dislike about .22 cal is the range its very limited its easier to shoot close than far.(So you can hit a tin can at 50 m can you hit it at 200.) :bullet:
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: MdB on October 15, 2005, 03:14:15
not nearly often enough. I have seen years where we have fired live twice. Once, being the test. "Odd, private Bloggins hasn't improved his scores at all since last year."
Gee, ya think?
Not that it makes me bitter, or anything.

Hmm, not bitter, but it's kinda depressing. How should infantry be professional with that few live training? How could they be confident in weapon handling? Hmm, now the brass and Gov't say that this is a very professional army. Some times, I think to myself, let's pretend, eh.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: sdimock on October 15, 2005, 14:43:43
Not just the Barrel temp.   Semi-auto Cooey sears can't handle too much and tend to turn full auto.......No not cool, very Dangerous!

We had the one with bolt action so never hear of this problem, thanks for the info.

Hi MikeH,

The range is shorter but my experience has been that if you can consistantly hit a pop can at 50 M with the open site Cooey, getting a tight grouping with the C7 shouldn't be a problem.

Chimo
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: paracowboy on October 15, 2005, 17:39:51
The range is shorter but my experience has been that if you can consistantly hit a pop can at 50 M with the open site Cooey, getting a tight grouping with the C7 shouldn't be a problem.
precisely. You're working on developing the principles, as both of us have stated in our posts. You can hit with open sights at 50 meters, you can hit with optics at 1000.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: KevinB on October 16, 2005, 13:39:38
para - any shooting over 300m needs a knowledge of reading wind

 I agree with cheap training (Pellet ot .22LR) but there is a limit to what you cant do -- Dry fire training is an EXCELLENT method as well - many high end competitive shooter state that 90% of your training shoud be dry (I'm not sure I agree with that) and they point to there is not bad rounds (misses or poor shots) in dry firing.

Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: paracowboy on October 16, 2005, 13:54:23
para - any shooting over 300m needs a knowledge of reading wind
as well as an understanding of the balistics of the particular round you're employing, and a host of other factors. I was exaggerating to make a point in a humerous way. Evidently, I failed.

Quote
I agree with cheap training (Pellet ot .22LR) but there is a limit to what you cant do -- Dry fire training is an EXCELLENT method as well - many high end competitive shooter state that 90% of your training shoud be dry (I'm not sure I agree with that) and they point to there is not bad rounds (misses or poor shots) in dry firing.
as well, if you have the capability to re-load, you can make under-powered cartridges with wax bullets to shoot indoors. There are products on the market employing lasers that allow you to shoot in your home. There is a hand-grip device that allows you to practice trigger squeeze, release, and follow-through. Also, you can stick a pencil in the barrel of your weapon and aim at the wall (from an inch away). Everytime you "shoot," the pencil hits the wall. If you're steady,and following the marksmanship principle, the lead should hit in the same place, creating a single dot. Then, there's the old "coin balanced on the barrel" trick.

But, I still maintain that .22 LR is the single best calibre for practicing shooting.

Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: KevinB on October 16, 2005, 16:46:33
IF your on a budget.  ;)

 For my own value - Dont think anything can replace real rounds down range  DCRA Service Rifle and TR shooting will give the shooter a world of experience - for .mil shooters consider the F Class category of TR  300-900m events.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: paracowboy on October 16, 2005, 18:32:24
IF your on a budget.  
even for hard-core shooters such as yourself. Go from grown-up guns to .22 LR once in a while, and you will pick up bad habits you're developing. You may surprise yourself.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: KevinB on October 16, 2005, 22:27:34
True
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: Fishbone Jones on October 16, 2005, 23:14:58
I had an incident with a black powder gun that left me with a massive flinch. Two weeks and a thousand or so rounds of .22 cured it. Besides .22's are just plain fun, especially with and unlimited supply of crows and whistledogs around.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: KablooeyintheWest on October 18, 2005, 17:09:18
 
For my own value - Dont think anything can replace real rounds down range   DCRA Service Rifle and TR shooting will give the shooter a world of experience - for .mil shooters consider the F Class category of TR   300-900m events.
Anyone mind deciphering: DCRA? TR? .mil? f class category?
Are they shooting teams that one can join?
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: KevinB on October 18, 2005, 17:40:32
DCRA - Dominion of Canada Rifle Association - they host service rifle, TR (Target Rifle : iron sight off the elbows bolt gun matches from 300m - 900m) F Class a derivative of TR using optics and bipod/rests.

 The way that TR and F Class work is a great way for a shooter to get into long rnage shooting - as 1) there are older experienced shooters there to give tips etc. on shooting at distance, wind, mirage etc. 2) the indicated targets allow the shooter to log their rounds and learn from the experience (any one can launch rounds down range - but there is zero value unless you learn from it)

 Service Rifle is the 12 standard matches
200m (App, Snap, Rap, Rundown 200-100m)
300m (App, Snap, Rap, Rundown 300-200m)
500m (App, Snap, Rap, Rundown 500-400-300-200-100)

App: Application Shoot - Prone 10rds for score slow fire each round indicated + 2 sighters)
Snap: Snap Shoot - different postion dependant upon Range (Kneeling,Sitting or Prone) 1rd per exposure at the 200&500m and 2rds at the 300m + 2 sighters indicated prior to begining scored part of match
Rap: Rapid 10rds (2x 5rds mags in 30sec) +2 sighters
Rundown: self explanatory for the 200 and 300m events - as you run down to the next 100m berm and shoot the match (10rds - no sighters)
 500m Rundown - 2rds prone at 500m, run to 400m 2rds Sitting run to 300m 2rds prone, run to 200m 2rds kneeling, run to 100m 2rds standing.
 All rundowns are timed.

www.dcra.ca for more info.

Get out and shoot!
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: KablooeyintheWest on October 19, 2005, 01:44:00
Awesome!
Thanks for that
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: BushmasterBob on February 22, 2007, 16:56:42
I noticed a few people saying to buying a AR15.  From what I read, the original poster doesn't have his PAL yet.  Is the AR15 not a prohibited firearm? which he will not be able to purchase.  Is there some sort of leniency for acquiring this firearm for being enlisted in the military?  Thanks
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: Ex-Dragoon on February 22, 2007, 17:16:28
I noticed a few people saying to buying a AR15.  From what I read, the original poster doesn't have his PAL yet.  Is the AR15 not a prohibited firearm? which he will not be able to purchase.  Is there some sort of leniency for acquiring this firearm for being enlisted in the military?  Thanks

No you have to pay your money and take the course like everyone else....
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: BushmasterBob on February 22, 2007, 17:41:58
I have my PAL already for non-restricted.  I thought that you cannot get a PAL for prohibited firearms anymore?
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: Future Unknown on February 22, 2007, 17:47:18
AR-15 is restircted
you need a R-Pal to purchase.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: BushmasterBob on February 22, 2007, 17:52:29
I take it there are different versions of the AR15.  In another thread I was reading, it must have a 5 rnd mag, semi-auto, is there any length restrictions or anything elso for them to be a restricted firearm vs prohibited?  Thanks
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: Future Unknown on February 22, 2007, 18:32:35
no ar-15 is prohibited. The Fully automatic variant of the AR-15 is Prohitied, but all AR-15's are Semi auto.
KevinB is our Resident Gunnut.
I would suggest going over to Canadiangunnutz.com for your gun related questions.
All semi-auto weapons must have pinned mags to ensure it can only hold 5 rounds.
theres no length restrictions other than it needs a barrel over 4 inches long. and it can only be fired on a restricted range, there expensive usually for a decent new one.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: PPCLI Guy on February 22, 2007, 20:04:05
In a way there are 'Designated Marksmen', but nothing as glamorous as you think.  No 'special' courses.  Just being selected within a Section/Platoon/Unit as being the/one of the Best Shots and employed as such in any case that that unit sees fit.  In Riot Control, there are Designated Riflemen who will carry out Drills as Ordered should an incident escalate to the use of Deadly Force. 

On another note, you can qualify for your Marksmanship Badge during your PWT and have that qualification for a year, after which you have to qualify again.

Sorry to continue the resurrection of a long dead thread, but changes are coming shortly.

The Sniper Course will be split into two parts:  Designated Marksman and Sniper.  Basically, we are going to split the stalk PO away and save it for the Sniper course.  DMs will take the DM course (old sniper less the stalk) and then after being qualified Recce etc, they will be allowed to attend the Sniper course.  This should a) imnprove the pass rate of the Sniper course, and b) provide a pool of DMs.  Concurrent to this is an inititive to purchase AR15s for the DMs.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: Samsquanch on February 23, 2007, 15:46:52
I looked at buying an AR-15.... and for the price and the fact it is restricted, wasn't the choice for me. Instead I took the money got myself a ruger lr22(love it) , and a SKS 7.62(so much fun) , and a mosberg 12 gauge three different fun guns for much less than one AR-15. None of which are restricted. Just an idea? I know the AR-15 looks and feels sexy but.......necessary....up to you. Bushmaster has a few different types if you are still interested.

Chinese SKS was 149$ and aftermarket parts galore....
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: KevinB on February 23, 2007, 16:08:08
PPCLI Guy -- I think your meaning AR10T for the DM's (the 7.62mm Big Brother to the AR15/C7).
  Good to hear about the splitting of the basic course.

Samsquanch - neither of those choices you pointed to are accurate.  The idea was provide a system (AR15) with the same (well similar - not auto) characterisitics for the member to train with.

As mentioned the AR15 family is restricted by name -- thus no calibre, barrel length or over all length issues apply to it.





Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: Urban on February 23, 2007, 16:40:58
All semi-auto weapons must have pinned mags to ensure it can only hold 5 rounds.

You can have as many .22 cal bullets in a magazine as you want; I even looked it up again in my old PAL book. I think that it also extends to any rim-fire bullet. Unless of course the law has changed on me.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: Future Unknown on February 23, 2007, 18:53:02
yeah thats correct, but we aren't speaking about .22, the user wants a ar to train like he fights, and YES before someone kindly points it out I am aware that there are .22 conversion kits of the AR.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: PPCLI Guy on February 23, 2007, 23:08:27
PPCLI Guy -- I think your meaning AR10T for the DM's (the 7.62mm Big Brother to the AR15/C7).
  Good to hear about the splitting of the basic course.

Right you are - I ain't a gun guy, and was pretty sure I was getting it wrong...
Title: DMR and CF Approach to the DM
Post by: Shamrok on January 11, 2012, 15:25:50
Maybe I'm a little behind the times here but I just found an article on the CF possibly adopting the Designated Marksman role to fill the gap between the standard Infanteer and the speciality of a Sniper role. If this was to happen what would see as being adopted as a Designated Marksman Rifle?

Personally I would want something along the lines of the Brit's new L129A1. Just my 2 Cents.
Title: Re: DMR and CF Approach to the DM
Post by: aesop081 on January 11, 2012, 15:32:59

Personally I would want something along the lines of the Brit's new L129A1. Just my 2 Cents.

You are basing this on what ? What is your reasoning for this choice ?
Title: Re: DMR and CF Approach to the DM
Post by: Shamrok on January 11, 2012, 15:42:07
You are basing this on what ? What is your reasoning for this choice ?
A friend of mine swears by his LMT LM308 which is the base platform for the rifle. There are only a couple of differences between the Civilian and Military versions and they are mostly cosmetic. He has put about 5000 rounds through his and has never had single stoppage and has taken it out and beaten the S$#@ out of it and still has not had a problem internally. From his personal experience as well as the positive reviews from mainstream firearms based media has led to reasoning for this choice.
Title: Re: DMR and CF Approach to the DM
Post by: Lerch on January 11, 2012, 18:02:28
I thought the CF had an AR10 variant for the DM role.
Title: Re: DMR and CF Approach to the DM
Post by: PuckChaser on January 11, 2012, 18:35:16
I thought the CF had an AR10 variant for the DM role.

Sniper teams had them when I deployed in 2007, I didn't think it was issued down to the individual sections though.
Title: Re: DMR and CF Approach to the DM
Post by: CanadianTire on January 12, 2012, 10:39:54
A good friend of mine was one of two DMs in his platoon on 3-09. If I recall correctly, he was taught the C3 in the off chance it was issued, but once in theatre I believe both he and the other DM were given C7s (I don't think they were even heavy-barrelled) with Harris bipods and Leupold scopes.

The US, at that pointed had re-introduced the M14 (in a highly modified form) and faced such shortages they even began buying back from civies.
Title: Re: DMR and CF Approach to the DM
Post by: Illegio on January 14, 2012, 21:48:41
Back in 1-08, the company-level sharpshooter had an AR-10, and the platoon sharpshooters had the C7CT.

There's a thread kicking around from a while ago talking about just such a topic. The sniper community is still waiting for their gas gun, and even money says that whatever that rifle turns out to be, the same rifle will be adopted for the DM role back in the companies, probably with a different optic.

So as for what rifle, it will be a semi-auto 7.62mm. Beyond that, who really cares so long as it does the job.
Title: Re: DMR and CF Approach to the DM
Post by: MikeL on January 15, 2012, 09:15:51
The US, at that pointed had re-introduced the M14 (in a highly modified form) and faced such shortages they even began buying back from civies.

The M14/EBR I believe was brought into service in the last couple years, but the M14(non EBR) was brought in as a DMR years ago during the early phases of OIF/OEF.  As well other DM Rifles have been in use in both the US Army and USMC.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Marine_Corps_Squad_Advanced_Marksman_Rifle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Squad_Designated_Marksman_Rifle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps_Designated_Marksman_Rifle
http://www.military.com/news/article/2008/new-lease-on-life-for-the-beloved-m14.html
Title: Re: DMR and CF Approach to the DM
Post by: CanadianTire on January 15, 2012, 23:19:39
Thanks for the clarification. I just remember seeing a lot more of the EBR style ones in the second half of the tour.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: NinerSix on May 24, 2016, 11:13:06
After looking at a few threads about this topic, I pick this one to bump.

There was, I am told, a program to generate some Sharp Shooters (SS).

What, if anything, is happening with this initiative?
Title: Re: Designated Marksman?
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on May 24, 2016, 11:33:31
Military Police, Eh! Boy, I would not want to go to trial based on your case notes if that's you level of factual precision.  [:D

"There was, ..."   When! A year ago, five years ago, ten years ago ??

"... I am told ..."   By whom, Your Chain of command, your bunkmate, a guy you watched over in the drunk tank ???

"... generate some Sharp Shooters ..."  What, pray tell is a Sharp Shooter? A sniper, a mid-way between ordinary soldier shooting quals and a sniper, a qualification level in shooting (you get a badge?) or just a program to teach shooting at a higher level ???

A few particulars to your post may generate better (any) answer.
 
Title: Designated Marksman
Post by: Underway on December 30, 2017, 16:59:10
Has there been any thought or analysis given in Canada regarding a Designated Marksman or "Sharpshooter" being added to the section or platoon organization?  There are a number of countries that use designated marksmen and find it useful to have a heavier rifle integrated into each section.  Is this something we should look at or is our recent experience pointing us at in a direction that this isn't really required.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman
Post by: LightFighter on December 30, 2017, 17:03:26
Probably not until the next war we get into.

I’m sure there’s papers/articles/AARs from Afghanistan regarding them, but they aren’t something we currently have in the battalions.  We are getting back a couple roles/skill sets into the battalions(Cbt Sp not Rifle Coy) though.  Maybe the next thing we will see is DMs brought back, although filling those positions in each platoon will be a challenge(manning wise).
Title: Re: Designated Marksman
Post by: devil39 on December 30, 2017, 18:40:48
We had DM in my rifle coy in '02, and even got C3 issued.   Recce Pl and the Sniper Union were quite upset, as usual :)  Apparently bolt action rifles and scopes were thought to be too complicated for a Rifle Coy.  Pretty sure the recommendation made it into the Lessons Learned documents.  Don't think it has ever made it to doctrinal change though, but makes great sense for overwatch and offset from fire base...etc.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman
Post by: Underway on December 30, 2017, 19:51:05
We had DM in my rifle coy in '02, and even got C3 issued.   Recce Pl and the Sniper Union were quite upset, as usual :)  Apparently bolt action rifles and scopes were thought to be too complicated for a Rifle Coy.  Pretty sure the recommendation made it into the Lessons Learned documents.  Don't think it has ever made it to doctrinal change though, but makes great sense for overwatch and offset from fire base...etc.

It seems like it would provide more punch to the section from a heavier round as well as provide accurate fire from the 250-700m range.  It's pretty clear that a designated marksman isn't a sniper what with regards to role and how they function in a section.

Why a bolt action instead of something that was closer to say an M14.  Or any semi auto rifle with a clip, 7.62mm.  Perhaps because it was what was in the inventory?  Bolt action just doesn't seem that useful for close in fighting.

Title: Re: Designated Marksman
Post by: devil39 on December 30, 2017, 20:28:58
It seems like it would provide more punch to the section from a heavier round as well as provide accurate fire from the 250-700m range.  It's pretty clear that a designated marksman isn't a sniper what with regards to role and how they function in a section.

Why a bolt action instead of something that was closer to say an M14.  Or any semi auto rifle with a clip, 7.62mm.  Perhaps because it was what was in the inventory?  Bolt action just doesn't seem that useful for close in fighting.

It was an inventory thing.   We had brought some with us from Winnipeg I seem to recall.  M25 or US Marine DMR would be preferable.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman
Post by: LightFighter on December 30, 2017, 20:37:25
We had the C7CT(?) for Designated Marksman in Afghanistan, not sure which year they came out though or how many were/are in the system.  I don’t recall if there were AR10s for the Marksman to use, or if they were only for the Snipers.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman
Post by: mariomike on December 30, 2017, 21:14:47
Has there been any thought or analysis given in Canada regarding a Designated Marksman or "Sharpshooter" being added to the section or platoon organization? 

What, pray tell is a Sharp Shooter? A sniper, a mid-way between ordinary soldier shooting quals and a sniper, a qualification level in shooting (you get a badge?) or just a program to teach shooting at a higher level ???

See also,

Designated Marksman
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&q=site:army.ca+%22designated+marksman%22&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjpgpmQibPYAhUIzIMKHe5eD38QBQgmKAA&biw=1280&bih=603

Title: Re: Designated Marksman
Post by: daftandbarmy on December 30, 2017, 23:22:24
Has there been any thought or analysis given in Canada regarding a Designated Marksman or "Sharpshooter" being added to the section or platoon organization?  There are a number of countries that use designated marksmen and find it useful to have a heavier rifle integrated into each section.  Is this something we should look at or is our recent experience pointing us at in a direction that this isn't really required.

If you want an operational role for the reserves, this would be it IMHO vs mortar/ pioneer etc etc.

We all have  access to ranges and rifles and, with the right support, the correct field craft and other technical training.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman
Post by: TacticalSnoopy on December 30, 2017, 23:51:52
We had the C7CT(?) for Designated Marksman in Afghanistan, not sure which year they came out though or how many were/are in the system.  I don’t recall if there were AR10s for the Marksman to use, or if they were only for the Snipers.

Interesting. I was a Sniper Det Comd when I left the Infantry and the AR10Ts were just coming into the system. In fact, my det commander course was one of the first to use them. I loved that rifle. We were told that they were going to be used in a DM role though I never really heard much about their employment after I left. I've often wondered what role they ended up being employed in.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman
Post by: Brihard on December 31, 2017, 13:34:16
To me a platoon level DM capability seems like a no brainer, and well worth trading in a rifleman. They could be tossed into a section easily enough if need be, but more likely would stay with platoon weapons det. Put a decent 7.62x51 AR platform with a good scope into the platoon, you’ll have a great asset for observation and precision fire where it’s called for. And a weapon that anyone in the platoon could pick up and comfortably use in a pinch.

I can see this being real value added in pretty much any type of dismounted combat operation... picking off leadership or support weapons in the defense, similar in offensive ops from a platoon firebase... Get into operations short of full out conventional war where valid targets may be among civilians in a rapidly developing gong show (riot outside a camp or base gone wrong), stuff like that... And a good optic is always an asset to the platoon.
Title: Re: Designated Marksman
Post by: Colin P on January 06, 2018, 13:19:18
A certain westcoast reserve Infantry unit already has the right individual to teach such thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXJFpVW2mDM&t=520s