Army.ca Forums

Milnet.ca => Joint Forces => CANSOFCOM => Topic started by: little jim on October 26, 2005, 08:10:44

Title: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: little jim on October 26, 2005, 08:10:44
FYI

CANFORGEN 163/05 DCDS 146 211540Z OCT 05
CANSOFCOM SENIOR APPOINTMENTS
UNCLASSIFIED



ON BEHALF OF THE COMMANDER CANADIAN SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCES COMMAND (CANSOFCOM), I AM PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE THE FOLLOWING KEY APPOINTMENTS FOR CANSOFCOM UNITS(READ IN FOUR COLUMNS: UNIT, POSITION, NAME, EFFECTIVE DATE)

CO DESIGNATE APPOINTMENT:

JOINT ACTION TASK FORCE(JATF), CO, LCOL insert name, IMMEDIATELY

CWO APPOINTMENTS:


CANSOFCOM CWO, CWO  insert name, , EFF 1 JAN 07


JATF, RSM DESIGNATE, MWO  insert name, , IMMEDIATELY


CANSOFCOM IS THE RECENTLY ANNOUNCED COMMAND WHICH WILL BRING TOGETHER EXISTING SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCES UNDER A UNIFIED COMMAND AS WELL AS DEVELOP FUTURE SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCES. ONE OF THESE FUTURE FORCES IS THE JOINT ACTION TASK FORCE. THIS HIGHLY TRAINED AND MOBILE BATTALION SIZED FORCE WILL SUPPORT SPECIAL OPERATIONS ACTIVITIES BOTH DOMESTICALLY AND ABROAD


DCDS CONGRATULATES THE APPOINTED MEMBRS
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Old Sweat on October 26, 2005, 15:13:28
Note that the CANSOFCOM CWO is appointed effective 1 Jan 07. Could this be an error? Watch and shoot.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Mark C on October 26, 2005, 15:44:16
The creation of CANSOFCOM and the subordinate JATF are definitely moving ahead at a rapid rate, as indicated by the announcement of Comd and RSM appointments for both organizations.   CANSOFCOM is to be functional by Feb 06, as is the case with CEFCOM, etc.   The officer and Sr NCO leadership of JATF will stand-up in APS 06, with the bulk of the unit postings occurring between APS 06 and 07.   

The creation of JATF is not a "smoke and mirrors" excercise.   The new unit is a high-priority capability that will definitely be formed sooner rather than later.   Unfortunately, in the short term this will undoubtedly occur at the expense of manpower within the existing Cbt A units - specifically the nine infantry battalions.   The experienced soldiers for the JATF (which will have an establishment larger than any existing battalion) have to come from somewhere.   Starting with the several hundred officers and Sr NCO positions that are designated to be filled by next summer.

It will be interesting to see if our problematic recruiting system can increase national intake and throughput to alleviate the resultant manpower shortage that the stand-up of the JATF will create within existing units.   Not to sound pessimistic, but I harbour serious doubts given the fact that the system cannot even recruit to meet attrition, let alone bring our exisitng units up to authorized strength.   I predict that some of our existing units (eg.   those in "low readiness") will be reduced to skeleton organizations.   The current manning shortfalls cannot help but get worse before they get better.   

There is detailed information regarding precise personnel numbers, unit composition and IOC/FOC timelines floating around on the DIN for those who have access and know who to ask.   Since that information it is not "open source", OPSEC precludes its dissemination here.   I for one, will not divulge any further information regarding the JATF and would caution others with that info to do the same.   Details of the JATF application and selection process will be released in further CANFORGENs as events unfold.   Once released in the public domain, I am sure that the information will find its way here.   Until then, I would suggest that rampant speculation regarding the new unit is utterly pointless and potentially counter-productive.        

All things considered, despite the inherent manning challenges associated with the creation of CANSOFCOM and the JATF this is an exciting capability development for our Army.   Once again, we are about to have a highly trained battalion-sized organization that the fittest and keenest soldiers can aspire to without having to possess the very specific attributes required for service in JTF 2.                  
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Mark C on October 26, 2005, 15:52:28
Note that the CANSOFCOM CWO is appointed effective 1 Jan 07. Could this be an error? Watch and shoot.

The CANSOFCOM CWO designate is currently serving as the RSM of another unit.  The Jan 07 posting date is most likely a reflection of his earliest availability for a formal transfer of appointment.  Suffice it to say that the individual in question is currently employed in a place where he can likely fulfill both roles as CANSOFCOM HQ stands up.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Old Sweat on October 26, 2005, 16:30:39
Mark C

Thank you very much. Your posts have cleared things up a bit, and raised some interesting points to ponder. I am sure this is just the start of a long and interesting debate, along with the odd emotional response and periodic posts by the ninjettes lurking out there.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Infanteer on October 26, 2005, 21:31:47
Why not bring back the CAR to give us a true light infantry capability and let the mech battalions focus on being mech infantry instead of flopping between being mounted and 'equipment-constrained'?

Better yet, let the armoured focus on the vehicles, let the line infantry focus on the wide-array of Light Forces tasks and let JATF assume it's proper role as a "Tier III" SOC-unit.  -This- is what the Aussies are doing when you look at how their various armoured units, the RAR and 4RAR function.

Quote
Then again, the Aussies are doing the same sort of thing. Oh well, what do I know.

Precisely, I think the Aussies serve as a good example to show that we have the "critical mass" to do this if we properly sustain our existing units.  The only difficulty we have is not to fumble the ball in the middle of such a high-tempo time while we are at war (remember that part) and mess it up.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Cool Breeze on October 26, 2005, 22:24:13
This sounds really really cool, hopefully things will work out successfully sooner rather than later. This is exactly the type of unit the Canadian Army needs - something to bridge the gap between your conventional infantry and special forces - commandos if you will. I do hope however that we have the equipment to support such an outfit such as the airlift (I'm just assuming they'll be jump capable), have the helicopters they need, and hopefully these large amphibious assault ships with landing craft we're thinking of getting. And hopefully we also get those sooner rather than later. :salute: :cdn:
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: devil39 on October 26, 2005, 22:29:16
As I stated on another thread:

In view of the latest on this "transformational" piece, in my humble opinion this is the best thing our CF could be doing at this point.

Congratulations to all involved.

The army will survive this and be stronger for it in the long term.  Certainly the infantry battalions will bear the brunt of this.  Sort the recruiting and training out for the backfills and let us get on with this. 

Absolutely the best thing to come out of the transformation of the CF.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Rusty Shackleford on October 26, 2005, 22:48:26
The recruiting system is not the problem, the lack of training facilities is.   You tell the recruiting system what you want and they will get it for you, but you should be ready and able to train what you get.   Three years ago the recruiting system was told to recruit techs, they recruited so many that PRETC had to be created to hold them because the training system could not cope.   Today, the training system still can't cope because it has not been enlarged to handle the numbers that were recruited.   The result is hundreds of troops with BMQ waiting for months/years for pre-requisite and occupational training.

There are many applicants waiting for Cbt Arms, some wait for months for an offer, that tells me that the training system can't keep up with recruiting.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: GO!!! on October 27, 2005, 22:52:10
I think there is more than enough blame to go around for both the Recruiting Centers and the Trg system.

My suggestion to fix those problems is simple.

The current reason given by the army (not too sure about the AF and Navy) is that there is a dire shortage of qualified instructors. I think that a major reason for the lack of instructors is that so many instructors are loathe to be posted to miserable ****holes like Wainwright and Shilo. This means that many of the instructors posted to the schools will quit, just to avoid moving there.

If the schools were co - located with the units they fed, there would be no shortage of qualified instructors, and whole units could be tasked to run coy size battle schools.

Before the old argument about maintenance of standards is trotted out as an opposition to any resources being denied to the schools, in my experience, the battalions have higher standards in everything that is assessed (with the possible exception of drill), so let them train the people that will be coming to their own units.

This appears to be what will happen with the JATF, with instructors also forming the basis of the unit, and being co - located with the trg system for it.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Tracker 23A on October 27, 2005, 23:09:55
Mark C and Go!!!:

Good comments and a good illustration on the pros and cons of the creation and existence of such a unit.  Nonetheless, we can look forward to a good future in the Infantry because of it.

Its about time.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Infanteer on October 27, 2005, 23:24:48
If the schools were co - located with the units they fed, there would be no shortage of qualified instructors, and whole units could be tasked to run coy size battle schools.
\

Nice idea.

Training Platoon as part of Admin Coy.  Give a Platoon Commander and Warrant (and the NCO's) their students and let them train them up to snuff.  Load them on a bus and go to Wainwright or whereever for the field exs.  After graduation, fill in the empty spots with Corporals, and viola - trained platoon.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Rider Pride on October 27, 2005, 23:48:29
Mark C and Go!!!:

Good comments and a good illustration on the pros and cons of the creation and existence of such a unit.   Nonetheless, we can look forward to a good future in the Infantry because of it.

Its about time.

Not just the infantry, but all arms, CS and certain CSS as well.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Haggis on October 28, 2005, 07:36:08
If the schools were co - located with the units they fed, there would be no shortage of qualified instructors, and whole units could be tasked to run coy size battle schools.

Before the old argument about maintenance of standards is trotted out as an opposition to any resources being denied to the schools, in my experience, the battalions have higher standards in everything that is assessed (with the possible exception of drill), so let them train the people that will be coming to their own units.

You mean like it was done back in "the day"?  :-[

I daresay the standard of drill on my RCR QL3 was at least as high as that on the Hill (the big Hill, .... not the "Hooded Hill").  If not, it certainly felt that way at the time....
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: signalsguy on October 28, 2005, 08:30:27
FYI all the sig units around the country have been asked for volunteers for the HQ and to provide troops for the JATF. The HQ positions are open immediately with more to come in APS 06, with the JATF stuff coming sometime later. All rank levels from Cpl to MWO.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: ArmyVern on October 28, 2005, 09:02:00
FYI all the sig units around the country have been asked for volunteers for the HQ and to provide troops for the JATF. The HQ positions are open immediately with more to come in APS 06, with the JATF stuff coming sometime later. All rank levels from Cpl to MWO.
Hunting them on our side as well.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: pbi on October 29, 2005, 10:14:39
I If the schools were co - located with the units they fed, there would be no shortage of qualified instructors, and whole units could be tasked to run coy size battle schools.

Before the old argument about maintenance of standards is trotted out as an opposition to any resources being denied to the schools, in my experience, the battalions have higher standards in everything that is assessed (with the possible exception of drill), so let them train the people that will be coming to their own units.
Thoughts?

I have come to be a big believer in devolved training, especially as a result of my experiences in 38 CBG. To me (and to other "believers") "one standard" does not mean "one school". Let me offer a parallel:

In Ontario, there is one law governing the professional standards of doctors. The consequences of error for doctors are: death, injury and suffering, as well as severe financial loss. However, Ontario does not run one single medical school: it runs several. 'One standard" does not mean "one school".

What is needed is not to drag thousands of students and instructors around the country every year: instead, have a smaller (but still adequate) standards inspection and maintenance force, with strong powers and backed up by the chain of command. We have achieved this to some degree in the Army Reserve with the Bde Standards dets (we had three in 38 CBG) but I think it could be made stronger still, and expanded to better permit devolved training by Reg Bdes. Do the training locally: move the Standards people around. To a certain extent this is happening now.

As well, I think our slow (but gradually accelerating) adoption of Distributed Learning (ie: on-line learning to replace sitting in a classroom three hundred miles away...) will help us down the path to devolved training.

It will take work, vigilance, and some dink-slapping of slackers to make this work, but I believe it is achievable.


Cheers.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Dolphin_Hunter on October 29, 2005, 11:02:56
They are looking for NavComm volunteers too,  as there aren't enought sig ops to fill all the positions.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: pbi on October 30, 2005, 10:24:57
I expect to hear a briefing on SOG and probably on JATF as well in the next week or so. If there are UNCLAS parts, I will try to offer them here if that is appropriate.

Cheers.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: a_beautiful_tragedy on October 30, 2005, 12:38:53
So with only 9 regular force infantry battalions we are making a new SF Battalion AND expanding JTF2 to around 600 troops?

Where in the name of the good lord are we going to find the troops? Lets say we have 8000 reg force infantry types and what....1000-1200 SF types with these new units....thats 15% of our total infantry types being 'SF'. Isn't that a little high?

Methinks that for all the good he has done, our CDS is on a 'SF High' so to say. We don't really have the troops (or the need) for so many SF types in an army our size. Why not bring back the CAR to give us a true light infantry capability and let the mech battalions focus on being mech infantry instead of flopping between being mounted and 'equipment-constrained'?

Then again, the Aussies are doing the same sort of thing. Oh well, what do I know.


thats all very true and are very good points which i agree with
dont you think though, that if this does happen which it will, the recruiting numbers will go up ?
because even i have talked to people asking them how come they never joined ?, and the majority of answers are " we dont see combat", yes thats a bit sad but it is true todays kids want to see combat especially with all the newer age movies (black hawk down and the new jar head movie) and the iraq war which are feeding there combat desires.
so with jtf2 and unit to support them, chances of our country getting into thicker mud will be more likley. And of course this will be on the ctv, cbc, etc. so all the younger adults will see this as their "new" chance to see combat...and probably enlist.  :cdn:
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Infanteer on October 30, 2005, 16:47:04
People need to quit making this out to be the death of the line Army.  There are 9 infantry battalions in the Army - JTAF will be a single unit.  This means roughly a platoon from each.  Are you expecting the loss of 35 guys to bleed all of our units dry?  The other 500-600 should be capable of doing a good job in the line battalions; it'll most likely be reinforced by SOC-qualified soldiers coming back to battalion.  We seemed to do alright with 9 when the Airborne Regiment was up and running.

As well, there is nothing wrong with somebody joining with aspirations of going higher; the US thrives off of these types (hence the Ranger, 18X, and SEAL direct contracts) - sure, you'll attract some wieners, but offering a High Speed, Low Drag capability will get good guys in the door who may not have otherwise payed attention to the Forces.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Infanteer on October 30, 2005, 17:01:03
I'm not sure what the Liberal Party has to do with this?
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: MCG on October 30, 2005, 18:07:42
I expect to hear a briefing on SOG and probably on JATF as well in the next week or so. If there are UNCLAS parts, I will try to offer them here if that is appropriate.
That would be appreciated.  Likely lay to rest some rumour & speculation while your at it.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Infanteer on October 30, 2005, 18:28:32
Gov't in general. Not trying to turn this into a partisan discussion, but alright. Lets try this.

You're overanalyzing and confusing capabilities.  We're not treading new ground here.  Read some material to get a better idea of the JATF context.

http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/engraph/vol5/no3/Special_e.asp

http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/engraph/vol5/no3/Special2_e.asp

http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/engraph/vol5/no3/Special3_e.asp

http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/engraph/vol5/no3/Special4_e.asp
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: paracowboy on October 30, 2005, 20:18:02
it ain't the death of line infantry in general, or light infantry, specifically. But it will make us sicker in the short term. And we're already pretty ill. As pointed out so eloquently by Mark C.

With the need to fill the new unit with senior pers rapidly, we're going to lose even more of our experienced troops and leaders, leaving a capability gap in the existing units. As new troops come from the Battle Schools (or whatever they're being called now), they won't have anybody to teach them how to soldier. My biggest fear is another drop in Standards to get enough bodies in slots.

It's a good thing in the long run, but it's going to be pure hell in the short term.
Can't wait to see what's gonna happen.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Tracker 23A on October 30, 2005, 21:13:17
True true. Must be that highly trained university mind of mine, going into overload.   ;D

Interesting info.

Quote
The best soldiers are getting back-up

The defence budget is shrinking, the cost of high-tech warfare soaring. How is Britain to remain a front-line military power? One answer, in a favourite phrase of warmongering tabloid newspapers, is to "send in the SAS"-the Special Air Service, perhaps the best of all elite regiments.

Over the past decade, British special-force (SF) fighters, comprising the SAS and their naval sister unit, the Special Boat Service (SBS), have been more busy in more places than at any time since the SAS was founded-to play merry heck behind German lines in 1941. First came peacemaking in the Balkans, then wars in Sierra Leone, Afghanistan and Iraq, and counter-terrorism all over the place. The burden, which springs from America's war on terror and an interventionist British foreign policy, will not be lifted soon. And yet the combined strength of the SAS and SBS is only believed to be around 400 men.

Alas, their number cannot simply grow. Although a fourth SBS squadron is being raised from the toughest marine commandos, recruiting many more men would entail easing the entry requirements. Better to train and dedicate high-grade infantrymen to support SF operations, freeing the best soldiers for the most demanding tasks. Hence the Joint Special Forces Support Group (JSFSG), an outfit modelled on America's army rangers, and whose first members, from the parachute regiment, are enjoying a preliminary outing with the SAS in Baghdad.

One of several army reforms announced in December, the JSFSG will become partially operational next April and ready by 2008. At its heart will be the Parachute Regiment's 1st battalion, which will be cut to 476 soldiers-in effect, losing a company of 70 men. It will also have a company of marine commandos and a similar number of experts from the air force, including forward air-controllers. The support group is to be led by the paras' commanding officer and dedicated to its new role; the battalion has already been removed from the infantry order of battle.

The army is cockahoop. Before the recent shake-up, it faced losing four infantry battalions. Thanks to its canny boss, the JSFSG's architect, General Sir Mike Jackson, it has, in effect, lost only three. That the general himself commanded "1 para" suggests a spot of backroom manoeuvring; he describes the group's formation as "a very good result for the army".

The SAS and SBS are also pleased. Already the most pampered of British fighters, they can expect dedicated back-up in three main areas. First, as conventional support: the group might, say, secure a fuel supply for forward SF troops. Second, as an auxiliary strike force for SF operations; the paras have already performed this task in Sierra Leone in 2000, when they eradicated a vicious militia called the West Side Boys (led by Commanders Mega-Rapist and Slaughter, among others), after SAS troopers had sprung 11 British hostages from the militia camp. Third, the support group can train the special forces of allies. As these, often from oil-rich Middle-Eastern countries, are typically none too special, the paras are easily up to the job.

The Parachute Regiment, which has always thought itself a cut above the general infantry, is also pleased. Para recruits will now enter the regiment's 2nd and 3rd battalions for a year or two, before being encouraged to apply for the JSFSG; members of other infantry battalions will also be able to apply. After a similar spell in the support group, most will return to their units. But the best may seek to join the SF. Having learnt SF drills in the support group, they will have done no harm to their chances. Around 175 soldiers brave each of the SAS's twice-yearly six-month selection courses and around 30 are accepted-almost half of whom are paras.

Members of the JSFSG are technically part of the ordinary armed forces. Not so the directorate's other recent addition, the Special Reconnaissance Regiment (SRR), the first new SF unit in half a century, and the only one open to women. The regiment existed in prototype as 14th intelligence company, a plainclothes surveillance unit in Northern Ireland. As military operations scale down there, the new SRR will safeguard its skills.

Food for thought...

Title: Re: JATF
Post by: UberCree on October 31, 2005, 12:13:29
This arguement is as old as soldiering... and I'm sure will never be finalized to both sides satisfaction.

All I can say speaking for myself and others in my position is that I joined the U.S. military specifically because I did not want to be a 'peacekeeper', I wanted to be part of a unit that I knew would be hard, that I knew would suck and that I knew may go to war.  At the time I signed up there was no Airborne and no JTF.  There are still many people in Canada, believe it or not, that honour the warrior spirit.  Many of my treaty (status Indian) brethren have volunteered to serve in the U.S. specifically to go to war.  My community right now has two people over in Iraq with the U.S. military.  Canada wide there are many.
There is nothing wrong in my eyes with having a unit or units that epitomize the pinnacle of soldiering and the warrior spirit.  It gives us free agents (I consider a reservists in Canada to be a free agents, as they get to pick and chose what they want to do) something attractive to be a part of that would pull us away from our cush jobs or aspiring careers. 
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Good2Golf on October 31, 2005, 12:53:59
As I stated on another thread:

In view of the latest on this "transformational" piece, in my humble opinion this is the best thing our CF could be doing at this point.

Congratulations to all involved.

The army will survive this and be stronger for it in the long term.  Certainly the infantry battalions will bear the brunt of this.  Sort the recruiting and training out for the backfills and let us get on with this. 

Absolutely the best thing to come out of the transformation of the CF.

Yup.  It will depend greatly on how Comd CANSOFCOM and CLS work out the transfer of folks from the battalions into the JATF.  Training in the JATF's final resting spot will likely support mission focus, so I don't think there's an issue there.  Heard rumblings ranging from "All the "3" Bn's of the Regt's" to "a platoon from each company".  Not sure it will be that much anyway, but there will have to be a balance between making sure JATF gets the folks who will either immediately or be able to be trained in a short period of time to meet the Force's requirement while still ensuring that the line BN's have enough critical mass not only to continue to feed the JATF but also perform their conventional tasks as admirably as they have in the past.  I think there's more than enough professionalism in today's Army to achieve those missions...not saying it won't be without pain, but as Devil39 says, "stronger for it in the long term."

Personally, I'm also waiting to see how some of the supporting orgs shake out on this one...rumblings of a SOAR to support JTF/JATF are starting to percolate...couldn't make me happier.  At the end of the day, support to the overall mission with the range of warfighting capabilities available is the name of the game.

p.s. Piper, I think you're getting a bit "black and white" on the "SOF at the cost of conventional forces"  thing, i.e. SOF "lop-sidedly" vice balance of SOF and conventional forces.  I see a balance over here right now, and with things ramping up in Feb, it's not like conventional forces are at all disappearing from play...

Cheers,
Duey
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: SHELLDRAKE!! on November 01, 2005, 14:30:01
while still ensuring that the line BN's have enough critical mass

 How can this realistically work if we can't even bring in the 5000 fresh meat troops to backfill the positions of the plethora of troops wanting to be in JATF?
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Good2Golf on November 01, 2005, 14:41:16
How can this realistically work if we can't even bring in the 5000 fresh meat troops to backfill the positions of the plethora of troops wanting to be in JATF?

Shelldarke, by "critical mass", I don't mean as many troops as each Battalion has, or even had in the mid/late-80's, but rather enough so that core competencies and professional soldiering can be trained to the required levels for the number of soldiers that will exist in the line units at steady state.  I wouldn't try to pretend for a second that it won't involve significant reductions...I'll let you know about a similar scale of adjustment within aviation as it relates to line Army support and CANSOF support when some public announcements are made in the near future.  I think you'll find we are all going to have to get used to even more change.  I'll reiterate what Devil39 said..."we'll be stronger for it in the long term"...it's just that we may not look overly similar to how we do today.

Cheers,
Duey
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: SHELLDRAKE!! on November 01, 2005, 15:17:09
 I am very glad that JATF has been proposed and is being implemented but IMHO this military needs atleast 5 years away from operations to recruit and resupply with a proper budget in order to rebuild properly. It sounds to me like we will be spread thin with no money and minimal equipment, which will take twice as long to bring our military up to speed.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: KevinB on November 01, 2005, 16:36:00
The 031's join for action -- do five years without tours and they will have all gotten out.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: wack-in-iraq on November 02, 2005, 10:07:33
The 031's join for action -- do five years without tours and they will have all gotten out.


after 6 years in the infantry and a tour to bosnia i had to quit the army to come to iraq and get some action, thats not the way it should be. at the same time though i really have no desire to see casualty lists with canadian names on them like they have for the US troops that bite it here.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Sheep Dog AT on November 02, 2005, 11:01:53
It will be interesting to see how this is fleshed out.  Being that eventually it will be open to all (are other Tier 2 units like this?) I think that there is an equal chance for mech infantry to make the grade as well given that they do have specialty courses as well.
Questions I hope that will be answered by our Senior members here once they get the brief are:
Where is this new unit going be stood up?
What's selection going to be, ie 2 days covering all aspects of war fighting or more like the JTF (running, mind games etc)?  Might be hard for a air force guy to set up a fighting patrol if that's what selection will be like.
How is the french Canadians going to fit in.  Will this be a posting were members must be able to speak English or will there be a french element (ie platoon) as well.
How much emphasis will be placed on jumpers (ie having the course prior).
When are they going to start selection?
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Gunner on November 02, 2005, 11:03:05
CFL, as far as I am aware, you are correct (full time contract).
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: pbi on November 02, 2005, 21:59:36
We got the briefing yesterday. I don't have too much new to add, except to say that the source was authoritative. I can confirm that the JATF will be a battalion-size "SOF-capable" unit, something similar to US Rangers or the new Spec Ops sp unit capability being created in both the UK and Australian armies. It will be created by drawing in selectees from across the CF (although everybody readily admits that most will be Army, most of those will be Inf, and most of those will probably be from the Lt Bns. It will NOT be recruited off the street. The Army (predominantly) will take a manning hit in the beginning, but the view is that we are not at an end state, nor even near it, as far as the final shape of things goes. If we want to build capability, the view is to strike now while the iron is hot, get that capability established, even if it means taking pain. There was no clear explanation as to how we will "rebuild" the depleted units, particularly in view of the fact that our recruiting is not doing as well as expected.

The Res component that some posters have referred to will not (right now, anyway...) be part of the JATF. It will exist as part of CANSOFCOM (the current name for the SOG), along with a number of other non-JTF2 elements.

And, JATF will wear a tan beret...

Cheers
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Haggis on November 02, 2005, 22:37:04
....something similar to US Rangers

And, JATF will wear a tan beret...

Well if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be......?? ;D

Couldn't they come up with a better name than Joint Action Task Force?  Why not ressurect "Special Service Force"??  Build on the warrior customs and hardy traditions of The Devil's Brigade.

Heck, I'd be there in a minute!
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Krazy-P on November 02, 2005, 23:16:24
Where is this new unit going to be stationed??
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: silentbutdeadly on November 02, 2005, 23:22:52
It is going to be in Pet. from what i hear, but thats makes it pretty packed there with 2 btln's from the RCR there also, poor Pembroke girls!  ;)
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: MCG on November 02, 2005, 23:30:44
Couldn't they come up with a better name than Joint Action Task Force?   Why not ressurect "Special Service Force"??   Build on the warrior customs and hardy traditions of The Devil's Brigade.
I agree that there could have been a better name, but a lot have said the same of JTF 2 (could have been SAS).   Maybe SSF was not considered because it was the name of a formation and not of a unit.

Title: Re: JATF
Post by: ArmyVern on November 02, 2005, 23:38:08
I agree that there could have been a better name, but a lot have said the same of JTF 2 (could have been SAS).   Maybe SSF was not considered because it was the name of a formation and not of a unit.

So maybe we don't get the name back, but I'm quite convinced that the old SSF (jump) smock would go so well with cadpat pants and a tan beret!!  :-X I loved that smock!! I think the tan beret I could do without.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Sheep Dog AT on November 03, 2005, 01:04:48
Oh the choices:
OT
suck it up in the regs
Work my *** off and try this new unit were you can get a lot more kit work with the best people but be away a lot more often for a lot longer.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Unknown Factor on November 03, 2005, 02:12:47
Couldn't they come up with a better name than Joint Action Task Force?  

What does it matter? It's not the name but the game you bring to the big show that counts.  Besides Army is moving forward, so what would be accomplished by dredging up old ideas. - As well JTF2 was already adopted the SSF battle honours.  I think most are just happy finding out what is going on through the usual channels and keeping the hear-say at work.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: ArmyRick on November 03, 2005, 07:38:18
I agree. Who cares what they call it? Lets get on with it and get the job done (or in this case, lets get it started). Armyvern, trying to relive 1988 are you? Jumpsmocks are way gone. They don't even wear them at CPC now.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: signalsguy on November 03, 2005, 08:39:27
I'm hearing some pretty negative chatter here in Ottawa about the whole thing. Not the JATF so much but the CANSOFCOM HQ. Its mostly sigs types bitching about it being a big move of the JOG up to Ottawa, with all of their attached B/S including a big part of the JSR. I have to take it with a big grain of salt, looking at where its coming from of course. I think maybe these individuals are confusing things with CEFCOM. Moving JSR hierarchy up here and making them the core of a new signal element of a new HQ would be a MAJOR blunder.... (IMHO)

Anyway, apparently the JATF idea is not looked upon too positively either. Once again, BIG grain of salt because alot of the people around this place (NDHQ) are frigging lifers here... (RCR Major with a CD and thats it?!?)

I for one am pretty excited, this is a good move for the Army, it gives us all something to aspire to in addition to JTF2 (if thats your thing). Speaking with friends in Pet and Gagetown, it seems that certain parts of the sigs community are pretty 'stoked' to get involved. Hopefully this will turn out to be a good thing, both the JATF and CANSOFCOM HQ.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Good2Golf on November 03, 2005, 09:38:33
....
Couldn't they come up with a better name than Joint Action Task Force?   Why not ressurect "Special Service Force"??   Build on the warrior customs and hardy traditions of The Devil's Brigade.
.....

There were several options, including stuff with "support" in the title, but in the end, SOF community felt JATF best described what the force would do, and it lines up with the bigger SOF family around the world...terms such as JSOTF/CJSOTF/CJATF/etc... 

...well that and Gen Hillier liked it, too.

While having supported SSF folks in the past but not being in the force myself, I'm not sure JATF is any worse than SSF in the sense that does "Special Service" any better define and lay a path for future ops than "Joint Action" (which is what it will be, albeit it soldier/infantry heavy)?  Also, who say JATF isn't going to build on the customs and hardy traditions of the Devil's Brigade.

I never heard folks from the hill complaining that there wasn't SF or SOF somewhere in JTF's name...no reason to winge about it here.  Folks should be looking forward to what a great organization the JATF can be, not whingeing about how the name could have been something better.


...now the tan beret...that one came out of left field! ::)

Cheers,
Duey
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: MikeH on November 03, 2005, 09:54:43
Why does everything have to be in Ontario?Whats wrong with man,Sask,ab,BC.Spread the army out why bunch it up? :cdn:
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: George Wallace on November 03, 2005, 10:32:37
Why does everything have to be in Ontario?Whats wrong with man,Sask,ab,BC.Spread the army out why bunch it up? :cdn:
To defend Ottawa from 10 Mtn Div - if you haven't heard that conspiracy theory yet.

There aren't enough Prairie girls to support a base.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: UberCree on November 03, 2005, 12:01:13
Tan beret?  Hmmm, my spidey senses are detecting a trend here. 

Now for the important question.  What's the housing like in Pett?  Should us real estate investors be buying up rental properties?!  HAHA
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: GO!!! on November 03, 2005, 13:22:09

Being located in Pet is convenient for their major goal of supporting the JTF who are based in Ottawa.

We have a winner!

Besides, the HQ has already been stood up, and the barracks built all in wonderful Pet!

The location will definitely determine that only the guys who really want to soldier will try out (posted to Pet - shudder)
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: wack-in-iraq on November 03, 2005, 13:41:47
Why does everything have to be in Ontario?Whats wrong with man,Sask,ab,BC.Spread the army out why bunch it up? :cdn:

its not really bunched up though, there are reg force units in Alberta, Manatoba, Quebec and New Brunswick, as well as navy bases in BC and Nova Scotia. the whole purpose of these guys is to support the J, so whats the point of having them in saskachewan ? also the more bases we have the more $$$$$ it costs to operate them, lets stick with what we have where we have it ! pet is a big training area, it can easily handle another Bn, not that im going to look forward to returning there though !
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: little jim on November 03, 2005, 15:16:35
It will be created by drawing in selectees from across the CF (although everybody readily admits that most will be Army, most of those will be Inf, and most of those will probably be from the Lt Bns. It will NOT be recruited off the street.

By being created - does that mean the first group will be hand-picked (isn't that how JTF 2 started??) - lucky bums

curious in the 'bridge

Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Unknown Factor on November 03, 2005, 15:43:29
By being created - does that mean the first group will be hand-picked (isn't that how JTF 2 started??) - lucky bums

If what you mean by hand picked is selecting Officers and NCO's that have specific experience in TRG and conducting Sm. team tactics, then why not?.  They will most likely be looking for the experience of the Cbt Arms in the interm for their leadership and experience to allow for a smooth transition into an operational unit.  Additionally the selection and trg of Cpl's and below will require an enormous amount of manpower to reach Bn strength within the projected time frame, so I'd imagine that they would prefer to spend less trg time teaching and assesing leadership abilities of of their potential leadership.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Sheep Dog AT on November 03, 2005, 17:34:28
GO your not thinking of NOT trying for it are you?
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Infanteer on November 03, 2005, 17:45:01
Well, CFL's post should announce the fact that the ninjasniper factor on Army.ca is going to increase exponentially - now we'll see the following;

"Yoyo, Im going to earn the BROWN berriet.   I want to be a SNIPER or a rappeler.   CaN I be go JTF and JATF, do Pathfinder course and do the Ranger course?   Will I be able to keep my jumpwings from cadits? I was gold star and can due 200 pushups and run 2 mile in 3 minutes; do you think I'm ready?

Kewl,
Kanadiansniperforce recon
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: KevinB on November 03, 2005, 18:59:25
Since most of the handpicked already had SOAC -- I'm guess SOAC'lite for the applicants will not be too pleasant.

 Pet is a beautiful trg area -- but its going to be packed -- when 1 Chicken moved up and the CAR was still drawing breath it was tight.  I am guessing they will doing a lot of trg down south as well though.

I still have a cottage 43km from Pet -- so pizza and beer weekends for the Pat's I know  ;)

 
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: GO!!! on November 03, 2005, 19:03:09
GO your not thinking of NOT trying for it are you?

Well, to tell the truth, I would really like to leave Edmonton, and get posted to Pet, because I think Alberta's taxes are too low, and I would like to contribute to Ontario more.

I know my wife is only joking when she says she enjoys being gainfully employed, in her area of expertise, and   I'm sure she could get a job wiping down gym equipment in Pet though. (She's unilingual - gasp!)

I don't really like living in the city here, with easy access to all of the benefits that that affords, and would love to get sent to a unit that will undoubtedly pride itself on even MORE c0ck than even the 3rd Bn can muster.

Having said all of that - if I can get myself back into shape after this "rough spot" I'll be at the selection! Chance of a lifetime!

In the words of one of my NCO's - "wives come and go, but your career will be with you forever!"
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Rider Pride on November 03, 2005, 20:33:10
At 3 RCR I hear of all these NCOs MCpl to MWO being posted to JATF.
So where is it they are being posted to?
And is there any strength to the thought that these NCOs are posted in next yr to build the training cadre for the actual JATF companies?
Any CSS posting being offered yet? (somehting I will be inquiring about with my CoC next week)
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: ArmyRick on November 03, 2005, 21:16:32
Sniper-Scuba-Ninja-Commando-Patrolman ? I am on board !!! Seriously, No I will not apply. Although I wish those that are seriously trying out for it the best of luck !

I thought some one posted that they have built the JATF lines in Pet. If thats the case, where are they at? Last I was at Pet (Last fall), I didn't see any new buildings.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Rider Pride on November 03, 2005, 21:28:08
I thought some one posted that they have built the JATF lines in Pet. If thats the case, where are they at? Last I was at Pet (Last fall), I didn't see any new buildings.
No new building less the upgraded OBUA site...

There is no such spot here in Petawawa. Hence my questions above.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Good2Golf on November 03, 2005, 23:09:59
Plenty of space on the Mattawa, CER should be warming up those D9's as we speak...  ;)
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Sheep Dog AT on November 03, 2005, 23:31:14
To all the mods:  It was my pleasure.

You can be posted to the same place ie working in XXX and being posted to WATC.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Pearson87 on November 04, 2005, 11:41:59
Quote
As well, there is nothing wrong with somebody joining with aspirations of going higher; the US thrives off of these types (hence the Ranger, 18X, and SEAL direct contracts) - sure, you'll attract some wieners, but offering a High Speed, Low Drag capability will get good guys in the door who may not have otherwise payed attention to the Forces.

   Many people want to join to see combat. I myself have put my papers in for that very reason. It was hard for me to decide between the US Army and the Canadian Forces simply because I knew I could go down to the states and obtain my Ranger contract without spending three years in the regular forces. In the end, I am Canadian and want to serve as a Canadian. Having a unit such as JTF-2 to aspire to, lured me in. Including a unit such as the mentioned JATF will increase interest from a certain type of people.

   I understand that a lot of young guys come on here with the SCUBA SNIPER syndrome and plaugue the board. But there are still young guys that come here, genuinely looking for information. For those of you that have the privilage of knowing the answers, please dont sell us short. At the same time, if we ask a stupid question, hit us with an equally stupid answer.

   JATF
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Cool Breeze on November 04, 2005, 14:03:15
There seems to have been a lot of negativity generated towards this new outifit having a tan beret as well as it's name. Personally I think that the tan beret idea is pretty cool. I mean the UK, Aus, NZ SAS regiments all wear the tan beret as well as US Army Airborne Rangers. I think it looks pretty sharp. But really it isn't a huge deal I mean it would pretty much be just as cool if they all wore maroon berets - and I'm just assuming that this unit will be jump capable I mean that would only make sense. I have to say it would be interesting to see what they come up with as a capbade though. As for the name I mean I used to think JTF2 sounded corny as well but really I don't think it matters as much as the capability. Personally I'm just happy that we are coming out with this. And I'm pretty sure most of the guys in the JTF2 and that will be in the JATF, or whatever it'll be called when it's officially established, will be too professional - and busy with other more important issues - to care. Besides guys will eventually get over it. ;)

Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: paracowboy on November 04, 2005, 15:42:11
well, I'm glad this is bringing someone with W-I-I's experience back to the fold. Hopefully, the trend will continue.

Like I said before, this is going to be a good thing for the CF in the long run. It's going to be horrible in the short term.

As for the head-dress, who cares? It wouldn't change the unit member's ability to do their job anymore than haircuts or or any other appearance-related issue. (Although, the similarity in head-dress may open up cross-training opportunities with similar hat wearing units to our south, and across various ponds. Which is always good.)
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Jungle on November 04, 2005, 17:48:55
Check with your C o f C, there are documents flying around with more info. The stand-up timeline will be longer then mentionned earlier.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Mark C on November 05, 2005, 01:48:48
I just did my BFT and I'm sore as heck so I hope they don't start doing selection Mon

You're kidding about being sore after a BFT, right?   Where I work, we do the BFT equivalent (or more) every Friday morning.   Generally with more weight, and over a more difficult course with varied terrain.   Oh yeah - I should mention that I currently work with the battalion's Admistration Company....     ;)

That said, I personally know most of the "key players" thus far in the JATF.   For that reason, I'm not even humoring myself to think that I could make the grade at 40 years old with my broken body.  

If you really want to join the new unit, you want to be in shape.   Good shape.   EXTREMELY good shape.   And on top of that you want to be smart.   Individually and tactically SMART.   Did I mention a mastery of basic soldier skills?   Really GOOD soldier skills?   That would undoubtedly boost your chances of success as well.

No offence - maybe you were only joking.   I'm just saying....
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Sheep Dog AT on November 05, 2005, 02:14:12
Do to situations beyond my control PT has unfortunately been put to the way side do to taskings and ex.   I would love to do more clicks on a weekly basis.

This new unit may expose an ugly side of BN life that a lot of units are not up to speed on their soldier skills.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Ex-Dragoon on November 06, 2005, 14:59:48
Forgive me if this point was brought up before but will this remove the LIB from each infantry regiment or is this in addition to the the LIB?
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: wack-in-iraq on November 08, 2005, 10:08:16
Forgive me if this point was brought up before but will this remove the LIB from each infantry regiment or is this in addition to the the LIB?

well it wouldnt make much sense to disband 3 batallions to make one. considering they are trying to increase the size of the CF (as far as i know) it wouldnt make much sense to downsize on such a level.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: geo on November 08, 2005, 14:35:12
wack...
they could "borrow" the para coy from each Bn to make up the "new" one and then look after filling in the holes in the Light Bns as new troops arrive.

A Bn after all is anything that is more than 1 coy strong......
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: wack-in-iraq on November 08, 2005, 15:35:53
wack...
they could "borrow" the para coy from each Bn to make up the "new" one and then look after filling in the holes in the Light Bns as new troops arrive.

A Bn after all is anything that is more than 1 coy strong......

fair enough, that would really suck though. the problem would be that as 'elite' as the para coys like to think they are, there is some junk in those ranks. of course there are a lot of top notch soldiers as well, but to just take the whole coy would be nonsense, im sure than any para coy member can vouch for this.....

a man should be judged by his actions, not by his cap badge or beret colour.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Technoviking on November 08, 2005, 16:25:55
a man should be judged by his actions, not by his cap badge or beret colour.
Amen brother!
Now, I've seen some stuff on here, but I think that the JATF is NOT the SCTF (as some have hinted to).  Just from what I can gather from the open sources (media, etc), there are differing capabilities.  Also, there is a LAV element to the SCTF, as far as I can tell....

Anyway, back to head banging :brickwall:
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: In the light of things on November 08, 2005, 16:54:27
Quote
Where in the name of the good lord are we going to find the troops?

Hopefully this info becomes public knowledge and the idea of a canadian special operations force batallion inspires a higher number of new recruits.  After all, one time a cadet asked me if, when he got older, he could join the SEALs  :-\ damn near slapped him too
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: GO!!! on November 08, 2005, 18:11:29
fair enough, that would really suck though. the problem would be that as 'elite' as the para coys like to think they are, there is some junk in those ranks. of course there are a lot of top notch soldiers as well, but to just take the whole coy would be nonsense, im sure than any para coy member can vouch for this.....

a man should be judged by his actions, not by his cap badge or beret colour.

How you would know how "elite" we think we are is beyond me, were you in a para coy?

There are idiots in every unit, even the elite ones.

http://www.canada.com/news/story.html?id=634f541b-53b1-4eae-a4d5-099fb3371865 (http://www.canada.com/news/story.html?id=634f541b-53b1-4eae-a4d5-099fb3371865)

However, if you are trying to create a Ranger type unit, to which the pre-requisites will be fitness, motivation and aggression, this can already be found in the Para Coys, and the light Bns.

So even if the powers that be are not going to move companies wholesale to pet for SF trg (which I doubt they would do anyway) these units would be an excellent place to start looking for volunteers. I would advocate keeping the selection process closed to all but reg force cbt arms, at least at first, because having a pre-requisite of reg force time (one or two years) would provide the source units with new manpower with which they could rebuild after the initial shock of losing troops to this new unit.

 
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: 62whoknew on November 08, 2005, 19:26:10
You know what would probably be another good place to start looking for potential pers to fill positions in what may verywell be the best go the CF has seen in 15 years...the other 6 031 Bns.  I could have sworn that I worked with a number of qualified ppl.

I think maybe a proper selection process, maybe even prerequisites like minimum TI and quals like afore mentioned.  Certainly being a member of a para coy is not a qualification of itself.

I did my recce course with some of 3VPs finest and uh....well, they didn't leave any lasting impressions :o
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: GO!!! on November 08, 2005, 19:59:57
I did my recce course with some of 3VPs finest and uh....well, they didn't leave any lasting impressions :o

Lest this turn into a "light vs mech" bunfight, we will concentrate on the actions of your snipers and recce platoon during the stand trg on the last exercise.

Remember when they got caught - all of them, and their LUVW and "forgot" to zeroise their radios, or get rid of their Drop off or PU points on the map, or sanitise their kit, or zeroise their GPS or wipe their map off? And then spent 7 hours blindfolded, stacked on top of each other in a junkyard aerostar?

That sure left a lasting impression on me, especially when we started broadcasting Pakistani top 40 over the Bde means, and were able to bump their helo when it showed up to extract them. 

But keep up the good work, after all, we did'nt catch them because we were the para coy, working 20 hour days for two weeks. Any old unit would have caught them and exploited their mistakes - right?

I seem to remember my pl inflicting some 75% casualties on 2VP (both coys) when they attacked our position, even though we could not kill either the LAVs or anyone in them, and were outnumbered 4 to 1. MILES gear is a wonderful thing.

Yup. Lasting impressions indeed.

Title: Re: JATF
Post by: silentbutdeadly on November 08, 2005, 21:00:17
Since we are talking about exercises! i remember being safety staff for the 3VP coys on there live fire trace, 1 getting ready for the PRT, and well wasn't impressed and the most checked out one was not the Para coy thats forsure. Like everyone is saying everyone , at least in the cbt arms , should be given the chance the show what they have. Oh ya didn't three guys from 1 VP pass the pathfinder course last yr ! hmmmm :salute:
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: ArmyRick on November 08, 2005, 21:17:10
There are switched on troops and hammerheads in EVERY Battalion ! Personally I think the first batch of troops that form the nucleas of the new unit should be troops with qualifications such as Patrol pathfinder, Recce patrolman and sniper. Oh yeah, a few of the old advance pioneer crowd would be good for establishing some basic demolitions skills. My two point seven cents.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: BulletMagnet on November 08, 2005, 21:50:24
I am a firm believer in that every 031 should have the opportunity to try out for the JATF, though I also believe that forming a group like this the first to try out should be those from the standing Recce Pl of all 9 Bn's and of course the snipers along with the Para guys. After you have a core nucleus of guys then you start drawing from everywhere, not just the LIB's.

Having said that, I'm also sure that not everyone will be intrested in trying out but it does give those that have been bitching that once your Recce/Para/Sniper qualified (not all of them mind you, though I do know a few that are all of them) that there was nowhere to go, I mean I was in Recce for a year but for career progression I need to leave, however I have no desire to return to a rifle coy and be C9 gunner or 3 i/c, there was no sense of somewhere to strive to be other then the Hill. Of course you may not have been able to get selected for the hill even if you did complete the 6 day.

Now we have something to strive for something to push ourselves to achieve and once there a whole new plethora of challenges within that unit.

I wouldn't get your hopes up about trying out for this unit anytime this year though it was  passed on in an "O" group that Pte/Cpl lvl pos wont be till APS 07.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: GO!!! on November 08, 2005, 22:02:59
The point is, qualifications are largely immaterial if you do not operate in the capacity you were trained in.

When was the last pathfinder platoon operation? Are there even enough torches in any unit to pull it off? Probably not. When is the skill set utilised?

Congrats on being safety staff, I noticed none of your units achievements WRT light trg were covered though. Care to elaborate? hmmmm?

The snipers are a "utilised" skill set, and the last ex demonstrated that perhaps they need a little more fine tuning - in the second Bn anyway.

The Para coy is also utilised in it's assigned role. I'm not going to lie and tell you that we are the best Light infantry company ever to walk the face of the earth, but at least we do jump, hump and shoot.

In my first post I clearly stated that;

Quote
I would advocate keeping the selection process closed to all but reg force cbt arms, at least at first, because having a pre-requisite of reg force time (one or two years) would provide the source units with new manpower with which they could rebuild after the initial shock of losing troops to this new unit.

So I advocated "all reg force cbt arms" to start with, should form the first selection.

But carry on with the jealous ranting, I for one am happy to say that I can do more in this army than occpy a LAV.

See you at the selection.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: BulletMagnet on November 08, 2005, 22:20:19

But carry on with the jealous ranting, I for one am happy to say that I can do more in this army than occpy a LAV.

See you at the selection.



Jealous ranting? was this directed at my post GO!!!...because if it is I didn't mean for my postion to come off as such at all.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: GO!!! on November 08, 2005, 22:24:57
Not you - I was talking to the loud and harmless guy and the one from 2VP.

You are right about giving members of some units somewhere else to go but the hill though, this was long overdue!

Title: Re: JATF
Post by: BulletMagnet on November 08, 2005, 23:02:15
Yet again, clearly identifying my target before pulling the trigger has paid off  ;D
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Unknown Factor on November 08, 2005, 23:13:59
My $0.02! I think maybe too much attention is being given to the rumor that this Unit will be simular too or like a 'Ranger Bn', the reality I think would be that if it is going to be considered Tier II it would be more compareable to the Green Beret A-Teams. 'Go' mentioned that if they wanted a 'Ranger Bn' then quite practically the Army would call on one of it's 3 Lt Bn to do the job.   It isn't that they are not qualified to do the job but rather the fact that they are not the priority in the Army concept, thus no money no training/field/ammo, there is also a Regt reluctance to support light Bn's and this is clearly apparent in the fact that the light Bn's are not all jump qual.

As for selection to JATF, I wouldn't be getting your panties in a bunch over something that you, quite rightly, don't have control over.   I would think that they will look for (and get) the officers and NCO's from the Infantry (probably going to be a significant number from Light BN's) as well as from Mobility/support. As for Cpl/Pte's?, they will most likely come from everywhere in the CF, just like everything else that is run in the SF world - they'll teach you what they want you to know.   The strength of the leadership they select will determine the strength of the Unit, so most likely they will be looking for leadership ability vise course quals amoung leadership (though I'm sure it wouldn't hurt your chances).

As for the Bun fight between Bn's it gets old after awhile, though it is amusing at times!   Differences between the two in reality is that one trains heavily to perfect the basics and the other trains heavily within an advanced system and less on the basics.   But the J Coys are not higher trained soldiers within the light Bn's, they just hold the jump posn/task within that Bn.   They would be careful not to forget that their are more jump qual pers within their Bn's with far more experience than their own, enough can't be said for maturity. As for whole sale movement of Coy's from the Bn's is not very likely, one thing that seem's to be over looked here is that, even though everyone can agree that they will be running a selection, they all assume that there isn't going to be psych. eval or even a file review. News flash - they are not going to even tolerate disiplinary probs, if you've got one, I'm sure they'll show you the door. My suggestion is that you work to master the basics of light Inf tactics, stay in shape and keep an open mind. Good Luck!
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: MikeH on November 08, 2005, 23:20:02
Was there anything said about Reserve force platoons?Like back in the CAR days, just curious to know.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Unknown Factor on November 08, 2005, 23:56:15
Was there anything said about Reserve force platoons?Like back in the CAR days, just curious to know.

I would imagine that something along those lines in the distant future may be a reality, but you'd think that it would be primarily to retain trained tier II pers. But if it costs as much as we think it does just to maintain a reg. SF Unit it is probably twice that, so find the justification of maintaining a res. SF Unit since standards will have to be up-kept.  I imagine that at the point they are at in the stand up process this is the last thing on their minds and as nothing has been mentioned as to the make-up and selection of the JATF same goes for a reserve element.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Mark C on November 09, 2005, 01:20:22
Whoa!  Me thinks that there is way too much testosterone and negative unit rivalry surfacing hereabouts.  Please take it off-line fellas. 

At the end of the day, JATF will determine its selection process, and all and sundry will be welcome to apply.  It has been clearly stated in public-access CANFORGENS that the initial draft will be largely combat arms, and from that largely infantry.  No great suprise, as those skills form the foundation that the new unit will expand upon.  Does it matter which battalion(s) those selection graduates happen to come from?  Not a whit.  What matters is that the standard is met.  I'm no expert, but common sense dictates that selection won't all revolve around basic fitness and infantry soldier skills.  There will undoubtedly be other criteria for which none of the applicants have been specifically trained.  That is all part of the selection challenge and the fun. 

Enough of the conjecture.  Will the initial intake be largely targeted at "known quantities" within the light infantry battalions?  Most likely, given that this is where the largest quantity of "known" folks reside.  By "known" I mean soldiers who are known to the JATF leadership by virtue of their former service in JTF2 or the CAR.  Let's face it - the LIBs are where most ex-CAR and ex-JTF2 personnel ended/end up when then are forced (or choose) to take a "time out" for PD purposes. 

Does the above preclude the keen/fit members of mech inf battalions or the other Cbt Arms units from applying?  I think not.  The sheer numbers and specialist skills required to stand-up the new 700+ unit by APS 07 are such that all and sundry will be welcome to apply.  I simply stands to reason that the bulk of "Direct Action" troops will be culled from the infantry, and specifically the LIBs.  No big surprise there.  We all know that there is also plenty of applicable expertise resident within the mech infantry battalions, along with the CERs, RCHA Regts, and perhaps even the Armd Regts.  Given the demand for suitable bodies, I am sure that all will be welcome to apply - along with the requisite numbers of CS and CSS trades.  The call for "purple" troops (eg.  non-Army) will presumably come later.

All of the above to say that dick-measuring and "sword fighting" is awfully premature at this point.  Nobody honestly knows what the JATF will be looking for, nor from where.  We can make some educated guesses, but that remains conjecture.  As I said before, this is one where interested parties will simply have to suck it up and watch and shoot.  If you think you have the parts, then start training yesterday.  If you have the wind left over to rumour-monger, then you are not training hard enough.  If you are a "WALT" and just want to gab about the unknown, then by all means carry on....elsewhere.

The facts regarding JATF selection will be made known soon enough.  In the interim, prospective applicants may wish to step up their PT and basic soldier skills just a notch. 

I'm out of the running, but based on common sense and experience I'm just saying.....
Title: Canadian Special Operations Regiment
Post by: Michael O'Leary on December 08, 2005, 18:36:19

The new special operations unit will be called the Canadian Special Operations Regiment.  The first direct action company to be created early in 2006, with a training cycle from 1 April to 31 July.  Primary manning of this company (strength about 170, IIRC) at first will be about 80% from 3 RCR and 10% each from PPCLI and R 22eR. Openings across the Army, any trade positions, will occur on future expansion to unit/bn/regt size.

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment
Post by: Infantry_ on December 08, 2005, 18:44:48
I'm just curious on where you heard this... and this instead of JTF or is this to go with JTF?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment
Post by: Michael O'Leary on December 08, 2005, 18:48:49
It's from a reliable source, who assured me it was open information.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment
Post by: Rider Pride on December 08, 2005, 18:56:35
sounds like the same info I heard.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment
Post by: Infantry_ on December 08, 2005, 19:03:06
Do you know if reservist can apply, IE) Go full time with this kinda like JTF or is it just Reg? Also do you know any more details like is it early 2006 or later, also how many members will be in this unit?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment
Post by: Jarnhamar on December 08, 2005, 19:05:28
Quote
at first will be about 80% from 3 RCR

*rubs hands*

Hope they need more troops, would love to slide in there.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment
Post by: Michael O'Leary on December 08, 2005, 19:06:10
Do you know if reservist can apply, IE) Go full time with this kinda like JTF or is it just Reg? Also do you know any more details like is it early 2006 or later, also how many members will be in this unit?

It'll be battalion sized once done. No news heard on Reserve oportunities.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: MCG on December 08, 2005, 19:35:29
SOC = Special Operations Capable
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: MCG on December 08, 2005, 20:01:33
I think they should have gone with Special Service Regiment (SSR).  It hints of SAS and of SSF.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Mark C on December 09, 2005, 04:29:26
Does it really matter what the new SOC unit is called?  Does it really matter what colour hat they wear?  It is a burgeoning military "capability", not a frat-house.  Nor is it (hopefully) a unit that will suffer "Walts" lightly.

Really, some of you posting/trolling in this thread seriously need to extricate your heads from your "nintendo-ninja-sniper-wannabe" anal orifices.....  ::)

The new unit will stand up on an incremental basis that respects the Army's other "managed readiness" tasks.  That much is a given and has been firmly announced.  The first DA Coy will be based on the NEO-tasked coy of 3 RCR.  They are already in Pet, and their tasking therefore makes emminent sense.  More to follow, as the remainder of the infantry field force cycles out of their various high-readiness tasks over the next several years.  It isn't exactly rocket-science as to how the new unit is going to stand up in light of other demands currently placed upon the Cbt Arms units of the Army......

Man, the rumours, innueudo and heresay that pervade this forum truly slay me.  If I had a nickel for every bull-crap theory that has been put forth to date, I'd be a very rich guy.....

Let the CSOR stand-up run it's course.  Speak to what you know.  Sum up if you don't have a clue.  We will all be better off if everyone stays within their respective lanes....

FWIW,

Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Spr.Earl on December 09, 2005, 05:24:02
The creation of CANSOFCOM and the subordinate JATF are definitely moving ahead at a rapid rate, as indicated by the announcement of Comd and RSM appointments for both organizations.   CANSOFCOM is to be functional by Feb 06, as is the case with CEFCOM, etc.   The officer and Sr NCO leadership of JATF will stand-up in APS 06, with the bulk of the unit postings occurring between APS 06 and 07.   

The creation of JATF is not a "smoke and mirrors" excercise.   The new unit is a high-priority capability that will definitely be formed sooner rather than later.   Unfortunately, in the short term this will undoubtedly occur at the expense of manpower within the existing Cbt A units - specifically the nine infantry battalions.   The experienced soldiers for the JATF (which will have an establishment larger than any existing battalion) have to come from somewhere.   Starting with the several hundred officers and Sr NCO positions that are designated to be filled by next summer.

It will be interesting to see if our problematic recruiting system can increase national intake and throughput to alleviate the resultant manpower shortage that the stand-up of the JATF will create within existing units.   Not to sound pessimistic, but I harbour serious doubts given the fact that the system cannot even recruit to meet attrition, let alone bring our exisitng units up to authorized strength.   I predict that some of our existing units (eg.   those in "low readiness") will be reduced to skeleton organizations.   The current manning shortfalls cannot help but get worse before they get better.   

There is detailed information regarding precise personnel numbers, unit composition and IOC/FOC timelines floating around on the DIN for those who have access and know who to ask.   Since that information it is not "open source", OPSEC precludes its dissemination here.   I for one, will not divulge any further information regarding the JATF and would caution others with that info to do the same.   Details of the JATF application and selection process will be released in further CANFORGENs as events unfold.   Once released in the public domain, I am sure that the information will find its way here.   Until then, I would suggest that rampant speculation regarding the new unit is utterly pointless and potentially counter-productive.        

All things considered, despite the inherent manning challenges associated with the creation of CANSOFCOM and the JATF this is an exciting capability development for our Army.   Once again, we are about to have a highly trained battalion-sized organization that the fittest and keenest soldiers can aspire to without having to possess the very specific attributes required for service in JTF 2.                  

Mark C your mention of man power is as I see it a key issue and relies on increased recruiting to replace those who choose to go over but with the problem of retention in all arms can it be done and sustained?
With the Engineers now a 30 day release is no more,it has been increased to 6 months.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment
Post by: Dog on December 09, 2005, 06:47:14
The new special operations unit will be called the Canadian Special Operations Regiment.  The first direct action company to be created early in 2006, with a training cycle from 1 April to 31 July.  Primary manning of this company (strength about 170, IIRC) at first will be about 80% from 3 RCR and 10% each from PPCLI and R 22eR. Openings across the Army, any trade positions, will occur on future expansion to unit/bn/regt size.



This might explain why I've seen so many people who've just got the call to go to basic, heading off to the RCR? That would make sense, try to stop the bleeding before it really starts by shifting the new recruits over to the units that are going to be hemorrhaging personnel.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Spr.Earl on December 09, 2005, 08:10:34
What is every ones fascination with Super Troopers?
Give it a break!
All's they are,are men/women who have that special quality that 98% don't have.
Get over it.


Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: signalsguy on December 09, 2005, 09:56:12
Everyone is (secretly) curious to see if they can make the grade!
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: George Wallace on December 09, 2005, 10:01:15
Everyone is (secretly) curious to see if they can make the grade!
For some it may only be a secret in their own minds.    ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Tracker 23A on December 09, 2005, 11:38:35
For some it may only be a secret in their own minds.     ;D

roger that!
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Cool Breeze on December 09, 2005, 19:28:11
Canadian Special Operations Regiment - sounds good enough for me. At least we've now got a good idea and the ball is rolling. Glad to hear things are going ahead and the first element of the new outfit will be operational next year. I'm still wondering about the equipment though specifically aircraft. I know we are getting 16 new Hercs but don't we need more (again I'm just assuming this "regiment" will be complete jump capable - I mean that would only make sense)? And what about helicopters? I'm pretty sure this unit will need more than just a few Griffons especially since we are planning on having a SOF aviation capability as outlined on DWAN (I think that's where I saw the slideshow) and other places.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Jungle on December 09, 2005, 20:02:46
Regarding the acronym: it will be more like "see soar"... as in "watch it take off" !!!
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: Good2Golf on December 09, 2005, 21:00:41
"soar" is not necessarily a bad thing...as in 160th SOAR(A) (http://www.specwarnet.com/americas/soar.htm)....
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rider Pride on December 09, 2005, 22:04:14
Right now its all rumours and speculation, breifing notes and planning.

I don't care what its called, I want somewhere where I can work, teach and lead jr medics, medics who want to be there, want to be the best and will strive to constantly improve.

I could care less what it is called, or what colour beret they wear.

I could care less who fill it, as long as we bring back that old army "airborne" attitude the Regt brought to us.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: geo on December 09, 2005, 23:22:32
Have serious doubts anyone in the Gov't will ever approve the resurection of something called the CAR..... a unit that has the same capabilities as they had - certainly... but not by that name

IMHO
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: the 48th regulator on December 10, 2005, 01:21:08
I am hyped and I am proud we have this unit on the go.

I have had the privilege to serve under some who have been assigned to organize it, and am sure have worked with some who will be posted to it.


Damn wish I was still in  :'(

dileas

tess
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: SF2 on December 11, 2005, 11:13:13
Quote
"soar" is not necessarily a bad thing...as in 160th SOAR(A)....

drool.......

It'll be interesting so see what the aviation side produces.  Yeah, the Griffons will stay domestic, but something will definately be needed for out of area ops.  But that's a whole other can of worms that's been discussed to death around here.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: ArmyRick on December 11, 2005, 20:34:46
It will be interesting to see how this whole thing pans out. JATF or CSOR, who cares about the name. Its what they do and how they do it that really matters. I understand their will be some kind of selection process or initial training period.
I am curious as to what its going to include. Before anybody screams OP SEC, just a point to ponder here. Look hard in book stores and on the net and you can basically get a very detailed description of UK SAS, US SF or SEALS training course outline and you will not be any closer to being an SF soldier. Its knowing how to apply the knowledge and practicing it. For those of us in uniform, is there any thing on the DIN about selection or training? I know some switched on troopies asking about it.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: mstorey on December 12, 2005, 13:06:38
There is nothing on the DIN and there won't be. If they post the qualities that they are looking for then people will attempt to tailor themselves to it (Hollywood). If you are interested contact your Career manager. As well the official word as of now is that the 3rd battalions will stay in place and recruitment is forces wide not specific trades i.e. 031 however there are some hard positions for specialist i.e. Rigger, JM, MFFJM, and the initial recruitment will take a heavy toll on 031's. If your trade is under strength then the career managers have been instructed not to accept applicants. 
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Technoviking on December 12, 2005, 20:43:23
There is nothing on the DIN and there won't be. If they post the qualities that they are looking for then people will attempt to tailor themselves to it (Hollywood). If you are interested contact your Career manager. As well the official word as of now is that the 3rd battalions will stay in place and recruitment is forces wide not specific trades i.e. 031 however there are some hard positions for specialist i.e. Rigger, JM, MFFJM, and the initial recruitment will take a heavy toll on 031's. If your trade is under strength then the career managers have been instructed not to accept applicants.  
Does this mean that NOBODY will be allowed to apply?  (I thought we were ALL under strength!)  :P
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Sheep Dog AT on December 12, 2005, 20:54:17
we also got that if your BN is slated to go on deployment then you won't be given a chance to apply.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Cool Breeze on December 12, 2005, 22:48:41
If your trade is under strength then the career managers have been instructed not to accept applicants.  

I guess this ties in with what was said earlier where the new unit will not accept people directly from civvy street. Just curious, anyone know how much time in is needed before eligible to apply (e.g. for JTF2 you need 2 years)?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: geo on December 12, 2005, 23:50:02
you just have to take your lumps like everyone else and show your stuff.
some people will need 6 years while others can get away with 2 or 3....

Get the qualification(s), get some decent PERs, become useful and an asset that they will feel they must have...
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: rogi on December 13, 2005, 19:16:40
I don't think this link has been posted yet

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1_1.asp?id=822
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Cool Breeze on December 13, 2005, 22:25:22
Very good video. Lost of detailed informative and highly recommended. While it doesn't have too many flashy action scenes people may want to view this first as it answers lots of questions before posting on the forum. Best part of all is it's official - no rumours, no bull, just the facts. Thanks rogi.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: WProhphet on December 14, 2005, 00:41:54
Just some food for thought, but in 3RCR right now they are taking names for those who are intrested in trying for CSOR. 

And from the company commanders hour we had the other day the word is that 3RCR will be providing roughly 115 troops by summer 06'.  CSOR will also be stood up in the Oscar coy lines, and O coy will be pretty much disbanded.  CSOR will also be taking over the NEO tasking, as the new unit will be a full company by spring in size capable of handling the NEO tasking (It will have elements from Combat Engineer, Medics, and Arty as well from what I understand).  Lots of buzz coming from a lot of guys in 3RCR about, but we shall wait and see what, if anything comes of it.  As far as it stands right now, if they take 115 fit troops out of 3RCR you are going to cripple the unit for a while yet.  And though we've been told that 3RCR will be getting the focus for new troops and more rest time I still see problems.  One problem being is that they are taking from the senior NCO's those with the courses and the experience (obviously), and from the Pte's/Cpl's those in top shape / switched on - leaving the leftovers for 3RCR - which isn't exactly bad troops, but shall we say not exactly the best example for fresh out of battleschool troops.

From talking with a lot of guys here, there is a helluva lot of grumbling going on about 3RCR not getting deployment since ROTO0.  A lot of the troops joined for that, and are pissed they aren't getting it - we've been the brigade's bi+ch workers for the last while, constantly training other people to go but not doing anything for ourselves.   Young combat arms guys really join for a couple things, overseas work - and a bit of action.  Troops stagnating in Petawawa start making problems for themselves, discplinary, and motivation bottoms out.   This last comment is not really my own take on things, but was being brought up during the company commanders hour by several individuals - and I can only guess that that is the same throughout the bn.  With troops being siphoned off to CSOR, that can only mean 3RCR's recoup time is going to increase - which has already clearly agitated many guys who may not have any intention of trying for CSOR.  Quite a few cpl's just finishing their PLQ's are worried as well, figuring they'll get promo'd to Mcpl in time to see experienced Mcpl's off to the new unit and them stuck to fill their place in a unit not going anywhere for a while. 

Anywho, CSOR is definently a -go-, its just a question of where its going, and how it will do it; that has yet to be answered. :cdn:
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: MCG on December 14, 2005, 01:39:37
What is the likelyhood that this becomes the Canadian Parachute Regiment under a Conservative government?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Tracker 23A on December 14, 2005, 07:08:37
Just some food for thought, but in 3RCR right now they are taking names for those who are intrested in trying for CSOR.  

And from the company commanders hour we had the other day the word is that 3RCR will be providing roughly 115 troops by summer 06'.   CSOR will also be stood up in the Oscar coy lines, and O coy will be pretty much disbanded.   CSOR will also be taking over the NEO tasking, as the new unit will be a full company by spring in size capable of handling the NEO tasking (It will have elements from Combat Engineer, Medics, and Arty as well from what I understand).   Lots of buzz coming from a lot of guys in 3RCR about, but we shall wait and see what, if anything comes of it.   As far as it stands right now, if they take 115 fit troops out of 3RCR you are going to cripple the unit for a while yet.   And though we've been told that 3RCR will be getting the focus for new troops and more rest time I still see problems.   One problem being is that they are taking from the senior NCO's those with the courses and the experience (obviously), and from the Pte's/Cpl's those in top shape / switched on - leaving the leftovers for 3RCR - which isn't exactly bad troops, but shall we say not exactly the best example for fresh out of battleschool troops.

You watched the army.ca video link didn't you?  Everything you have just mentioned is already known.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Journeyman on December 14, 2005, 09:04:32
You watched the army.ca video link didn't you?   Everything you have just mentioned is already known.

Well, I am currently stuck in a place with very limited bandwidth (you'd think the Jimmies were providing), and am not able to access the video yet. So despite the pavlovian flames from some, WProhphet, I'm grateful for your post.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: geo on December 14, 2005, 12:51:49
Wprophet....
in the end, believe that the new unit will be receiving some 100 odd sould from all 3 Infantry regiments over a 1,2 or 3 year period to constitute a parachute / airbornish CSOR force.

Yeah - that means that they will, in turn, lose some turned on NCOs and ORs.

You can only look at it as an oportunity for those left behind to "shine" (or go down in a blaze of glory)
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: muffin on December 14, 2005, 14:32:09
FYI all the sig units around the country have been asked for volunteers for the HQ and to provide troops for the JATF. The HQ positions are open immediately with more to come in APS 06, with the JATF stuff coming sometime later. All rank levels from Cpl to MWO.

Has anyone who volunteered heard anything yet?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: signalsguy on December 14, 2005, 14:53:20
Has anyone who volunteered heard anything yet?

The posting messages for the CANSOFCOMHQ positions seem to be coming out.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Haggis on December 14, 2005, 14:57:05
Has anyone who volunteered heard anything yet?

Probably not.  Para 7 states that the deadline for applications is 30 Dec so don't expect any movement before then.

Also these Reserve positions are for the HQs, not the CSOR or SCTF or any other high-speed/low drag units that may fall out of this..
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Cool Breeze on December 14, 2005, 21:38:27
What is the likelyhood that this becomes the Canadian Parachute Regiment under a Conservative government?

I know I shouldn't say this but what the heck I'm in the holiday mood. I like the current name as it better describes the new unit's role as a special forces outfit as compared to a conventional airborne infantry unit but it would make me really happy if we got both a Special Operations Regiment AND a Parachute Regiment. What do you think, good Christmas present or what? ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Tracker 23A on December 14, 2005, 22:28:12
I know I shouldn't say this but what the heck I'm in the holiday mood. I like the current name as it better describes the new unit's role as a special forces outfit as compared to a conventional airborne infantry unit but it would make me really happy if we got both a Special Operations Regiment AND a Parachute Regiment. What do you think, good Christmas present or what? ;D

The CSOR will be special operations capable, not special forces.

Such as the Green Berets are the US Army's special forces, the US Army Rangers are their special operations capable affiliate.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: SF2 on December 14, 2005, 22:33:19
most assume the two are one in the same.....

do you have a defintion for both?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: MedCorps on December 14, 2005, 22:51:11
Ah... but CSOR will have a "Special Forces" Company (the "4th" coy... 1-3 being Direct Action Coys, and the "5th" Coy being Sp Coy).   I wonder what this SF Coy is all about? 

Hmm...

MC 
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Tracker 23A on December 14, 2005, 23:12:35
most assume the two are one in the same.....

do you have a defintion for both?

Special Operations Capable (SOC), is a rapidly deployable airborne capable light infantry unit organized and trained to conduct highly complex joint direct action operations in coordination with or in support of other special operations units, such as JTF 2. They are also able to execute direct action operations in support of conventional operations and can operate as conventional light infantry.

whereas:

Special Forces are those forces organized, trained, and equipped to conduct special operations with an emphasis on unconventional warfare capabilities.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Tracker 23A on December 14, 2005, 23:15:09
Special Operations Capable (SOC), is a rapidly deployable airborne capable light infantry unit organized and trained to conduct highly complex joint direct action operations in coordination with or in support of other special operations units, such as JTF 2. They are also able to execute direct action operations in support of conventional operations and can operate as conventional light infantry.

whereas:

Special Forces are those forces organized, trained, and equipped to conduct special operations with an emphasis on unconventional warfare capabilities.  They are relatively small military units raised and trained for special operations missions such as Special Reconnaissance (SR), Unconventional Warfare (UW), Direct Action (DA), Terrorism (T), Counter-Terrorism (CT), and Foreign Internal Defense (FID).

These are the DoD definitions of these terms.

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Cool Breeze on December 14, 2005, 23:21:53
Thanks for the clarification. What about special forces and special operations forces? The CSOR has been labelled as a special operations force. Are SOF the same as SOC? I always thought that special forces and special operations forces were the same thing, though I may have read a thing or two somewhere that said otherwise, but according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces, SF and SOF seem to be the same. I figured that the US military was one that used the term SOF to describe all their "special" elite units because the term "Special Forces" was already used by, well, US Army Special Forces and we being Canada next door just decided to follow suit while other countries such as the UK used the term special forces as they don't actually have any units specifically called "special forces" like the US does. On the JTF2 webpage the term special operations force is used and I figured well JTF2 was just as much a special forces unit as any Green Beret unit so I went from there. Whew I don't think I've said the word "special" so many times in a post. In the end I guess they're all special in some way or other. Anyways thanks for the definitions on SF and SOC.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: Good2Golf on December 14, 2005, 23:41:44
Wikipedia sometimes has some hiccups.  I think most in the fold will agree that SOF and SF are not the same thing.  SOF is considered to be a more specialized force both in terms of capabilities and in employment.  Special forces, while quite capable in their own right, are generally a larger force supporting SOF or conducting operations on their own in support of more generic combat forces.

Ex of SOF: Element of 22SAS, JTF2, SFOD(D), DEVGRP, TAG1(I think 1 is, AUS SOF)
Ex of SF: Para, Rangers, Green Berets, Marine Recon, Spetznaz, TAG2(AUS SF, I think I got the 1-2 thing right)

I've probably got the Aussie TAG's mixed up or something, but I think that's the general idea (of course, corrections to all above are invited)

As well, I've only seen SOC to refer to a unit's capabilities, as in a spec ops-capable unit.  An example would be a spec ops-capable Marine Expeditionary Unit, or MEUSOC.

Cheers,
Duey
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Kilo_302 on December 15, 2005, 00:05:42
sup everyone
 just signed up for the board.

Anyways, does anyone have any more specific info on the role that the SF Coy will play in CSOR. To me it would appear that with the creation of this unit, JTF2 will be reserved for domestic/international CT, VIP protection and other strategic missions. The SF Coy on the other hand would be akin to something like the US Green Berets, and be responsible for other green ops. Obviously that would mean the Direct Action Coys role would be somewhat similar to the US Army Rangers. The only problem I see here is the fact that the Army has such small human resources to draw from to support all these different roles. Regular recce units have sent 4 man patrols into the mountains in Aghanistan, begging the question do we really need the SF coy? Wouldnt small patrols from the Direct Action Coys, or JTF2 suffice? Of course, this is assuming we are using the US army model for SOC/SF units. I have read some interesting posts about 4 RAR working with ASASR, but does 4 RAR have a specialized SF Coy like we are creating? Are there any similar units in the world? Or is this just a question of labels ( is the SF Coy more of a pathfinder unit for a new Airborne Regiment )At least Canadian soldiers will now have more rungs on the ladder to climb  :)

A secondary question. Do you guys think that at least the SF Coy will have access to a greater variety kit like JTF2 does, or do you think they still stick to standard CF issue? Anyone care to speculate?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Bubbles on December 15, 2005, 00:44:19
Is there a possibility that this 'SF Coy' within the CSOR could perhaps be a JTF-2 squadron/coy/unit that rotates through the regiment on a managed readiness basis?

 It would make sense in terms of logistics, training, organization, and manpower shortages.

Just a thought...
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: baboon6 on December 15, 2005, 03:21:33
Wikipedia sometimes has some hiccups.  I think most in the fold will agree that SOF and SF are not the same thing.  SOF is considered to be a more specialized force both in terms of capabilities and in employment.  Special forces, while quite capable in their own right, are generally a larger force supporting SOF or conducting operations on their own in support of more generic combat forces.

Ex of SOF: Element of 22SAS, JTF2, SFOD(D), DEVGRP, TAG1(I think 1 is, AUS SOF)
Ex of SF: Para, Rangers, Green Berets, Marine Recon, Spetznaz, TAG2(AUS SF, I think I got the 1-2 thing right)

I've probably got the Aussie TAG's mixed up or something, but I think that's the general idea (of course, corrections to all above are invited)

As well, I've only seen SOC to refer to a unit's capabilities, as in a spec ops-capable unit.  An example would be a spec ops-capable Marine Expeditionary Unit, or MEUSOC.

Cheers,
Duey

I've never heard those definitions before. The US DOD would define all the units you just mentioned as SOF. SOF really is a term which is mainly used in the States, because as Kev T said "Special Forces" was already taken and couldn't be used as a collective. In most other countries either "special forces" or "special operations" is the overall term for their "SOF" eg in Britain it is UKSF, in Australia it is Aus Special Operations Command (AUSSOCMD), in France COS.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: MCG on December 15, 2005, 04:14:50
Duey,
I think you are trying to get into the special operations tiering.   Meanings behind "special forces" and "special operations capable" etc vary between nations.   However, as we have run into in other threads, everybody seems to define each tier a little different and nobody has been able to point out a STANAG or CF standard.

Here are two previous times that we've looked at this:
Tier discusion in the JTF thread (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,19990.msg240790.html#msg240790)
Tier discusion in the Airborne Regt vs SOC Bde thread (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,22233.msg219574.html#msg219574)
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: Good2Golf on December 15, 2005, 09:37:21
Duey,
I think you are trying to get into the special operations tiering.  Meanings behind "special forces" and "special operations capable" etc vary between nations.  However, as we have run into in other threads, everybody seems to define each tier a little different and nobody has been able to point out a STANAG or CF standard.

Here are two previous times that we've looked at this:
Tier discusion in the JTF thread (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,19990.msg240790.html#msg240790)
Tier discusion in the Airborne Regt vs SOC Bde thread (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,22233.msg219574.html#msg219574)

Actually MCG, I was trying to avoid it and stay more general, maybe I should've sat back, eaten some popcorn, and wiat for my sentence in my staff job to end.... ;)   Yup, I definitely remember the Tier I, II, III discussions before...  If you thought the discussion there was interesting, you should have seen it on 101's EX floor a little while ago...I witnessed a healthy debate on the tiers' definition in front of the CDS and DCDS... :o

You're absolutely right that there is no one definitive word on SOF, SF, etc... To stay perfectly in my lane, I know that the 160th SOAR(A) guys I've flown with in the past are considered "special ops"...

p.s. So we do Tier I, II but not III (by US def'ns), right?   >:D

Cheers,
Duey
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: MCG on December 15, 2005, 11:42:56
So we do Tier I, II but not III (by US def'ns), right?    >:D
I don't know.  I've even seen conflicting descriptions of US definitions for each of these.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: SF2 on December 15, 2005, 14:07:52
Tier one includes hostage rescue, so yes, we do.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: KevinB on December 15, 2005, 23:07:03
Tier one includes hostage rescue, so yes, we do.
Well US Tier 1-3 do HR the trick is Tier 1 does National Level of Importance HR.

 US SF Groups can also do HR missions though their primary task is things like FID, SR etc.

Similarily the 75th RR does HR but primarily does DA or as attachments to CAG operates as Delta's outer cordon for their DA's or HR tasks).

Grouping the US SF as a Tier III is unfair, as they have a vast amoutn of specialization in languages (every team members is at least fluent in one addtional language), medicine, etc.   They where the original UW guys and brought the SOF concept to bloom.


Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: Good2Golf on December 16, 2005, 00:18:26
ok i know i saw it on here but i couldnt find it again, but !
what was the post about a possible airforce special operations ? something like the 160th SOAR maybe?
thanks  :cdn:

ABT, the DND internet website CF Transformation Page makes mention of an aviation capability in support of CANSOFCOM (not only domestic, but an internationally deployable capability.)  It would be logical that the CSOR would be eligible for receiving ergular support from this aviation capability.  I can find the DND link, but it is right on the DND opening pages...on the left side, click on CDS, the CDS' splash page has the link to CF Transformation...

Cheers,
Duey
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: ArmyRick on December 16, 2005, 14:28:33
ENOUGH WITH THE BERETS!!!  >:(  Maroon, tan or pink, who cares? Its the job these guys do that is really interesting. There will be the three direct action companies and a SF company plus BN HQ and spt coy. Interesting. The SF Coy will have 12 man teams (sounds like a US SF A team?) and the DA Coys will have two 24 man DA Platoons and a larger CBT SPT PL (my guess, heavy weapons, snipers, pathfinders, etc).
The selection criteria sounds good. It will help sort the out the paper ninjas and the real candidates. I predict that this unit in the future will become a major feeder unit for the JTF2.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rhodesian on December 16, 2005, 15:33:10
ARMY RICK,

I gotta agree with you.  It is more important the job they are going to do.  I just wondered where the tan beret thing came from, there are alot of "wannabees" out there.

By the way, just managed to see the army news cast mentioned on page 13.  Col BARR is a good man, almost as good as Col KENWARD.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: The Gues-|- on December 16, 2005, 16:26:01
(CSOR)
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1_1.asp?id=822
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rider Pride on December 16, 2005, 17:07:00
For all of you who are not in the know now, publicly dispersed info via print (Maple Leaf), TV and Video (army news) and electonic article (DND site) will be avail for all in and around the 15 Jan 06 time frame.

Info from the CLS has been diseminating down the chain of command, and those who are in the know are the ones who have to man and plan the intial setup of the unit.

So how about everyone take a breath for Christmas and wait for it.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: SF2 on December 16, 2005, 18:27:52
Quote
ok i know i saw it on here but i couldnt find it again, but !
what was the post about a possible airforce special operations ? something like the 160th SOAR maybe?
thanks 

Special Ops aviation has been around in Canada since the early 90's in support of RCMP (450 Sqn in Ottawa), and still to this day (a certain small group at 427 Sqn), so its nothing new.
DueyT, you might know me from the 'other site' as 427FO....co-worker of Switchmonkey.

For the guy who mentioned SOG - SOG is CANSOFCOM - the reason for the change was, and I'm being totally serious, the french translation for SOG - which is GOS - which is french for testicles.
This came straight from CO of CANSOFCOM during a brief on Wednesday.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: Good2Golf on December 16, 2005, 22:58:15
Special Ops aviation has been around in Canada since the early 90's in support of RCMP (450 Sqn in Ottawa), and still to this day (a certain small group at 427 Sqn), so its nothing new.
DueyT, you might know me from the 'other site' as 427FO....co-worker of Switchmonkey.

For the guy who mentioned SOG - SOG is CANSOFCOM - the reason for the change was, and I'm being totally serious, the french translation for SOG - which is GOS - which is french for testicles.
This came straight from CO of CANSOFCOM during a brief on Wednesday.

SF, I was wondering 'bout that... ;)  Most folks assume that all mods have info on everybody...not so.  Some folks are sort of easy...like Strike on the other side, others I only have a slight clue.

Good point.  Most people don't know that some of us pre-dated other Tier I capabilities, if even by only 2-3 years.  Good to see the stuff in the video about the 427 SOAS.  In my post on the other side, I was using "SOAS" tongue-in-cheek not realizing that it had actually been approved and became policy.  I guess I would have to say I fullly agree with where the Chief and Col Barr are heading with us! Hu-ah! (It would be nicer if we were going to be a SOAR, but I'll take a SOAS as a first step.... :D )

Hmmmm...does that mean we'll get to trade in the powder blue beret?  >:D

Cheers,
Duey
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: SF2 on December 16, 2005, 23:08:46
as of Feb 1st, yes
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: Canadian Sig on December 17, 2005, 11:16:49
good info, does anyone know if there will be any specific comm unit attached to CANSOFCOM, or CSOR in particular?     

No complete unit as far as I know. Volunteers have been requested from the Sqn in Pet. We have also been told that almost none of us will be going anywhere until 2007.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: MedCorps on December 17, 2005, 18:47:21
In the JATF (or aka CSOR) (don't get this confuse with all of CANSOFCOM) there will be support trades for sure.  The Suppot Company has  4 platoons (Transport, Maint, Medical, Supply) and a MP Section.   The Unit HQ and Signals will also have some CS / CSS positions. 

In fact, for the 2006 "build" there will be 47 CS / CSS Offrs / NCM's TOS 01 Feb 06 with another 26 TOS APS 2006,  This does not include "ATR" positions.   From there I only expect that it will increase, as the years go on.  Again this does not include Combat Arms guys. 

Hope that was of some interest.  If you have any specific questions ask (or send PM, even better), and I will see what I can do for you. 

MC   

 

   
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment
Post by: pbi on December 18, 2005, 11:30:49
I'm just curious on where you heard this... and this instead of JTF or is this to go with JTF?

We received a briefing on this here at CFC about a month ago, as part of the visiting guest speaker series. The CSOR will be capable of supporting or "enabling" JTF ops, as well as carrying out ops in its own right.

Cheers
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Ex-Dragoon on December 20, 2005, 11:23:54
Back on topic folks.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Bubbles on December 20, 2005, 20:40:24
Do you guys think that, with the creation of this new unit, they will make everyone in CSOR jump-qualified and do away with the para coys in the LIBs?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: GO!!! on December 20, 2005, 20:50:03
Do you guys think that, with the creation of this new unit, they will make everyone in CSOR jump-qualified and do away with the para coys in the LIBs?

This has already been addressed, the para coys will be staying in the LIBs.

Things getting boring on the air cadet forum?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Bubbles on December 20, 2005, 21:36:07
Quote
This has already been addressed, the para coys will be staying in the LIBs.

Sorry, I was unaware. I've been watching this thread pretty closely and I didn't catch anything on that. I apologize again.

Quote
Things getting boring on the air cadet forum?

lol. Yeah, I haven't really spent much time in that forum...maybe left one or two posts...
I've decided to go Infantry Officer as opposed to airforce (applying next fall) so please bare with me if i haven't fully grasped all army knowledge yet.  ???
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: MCG on December 20, 2005, 21:45:03
Sorry, I was unaware. I've been watching this thread pretty closely and I didn't catch anything on that. I apologize again.
Try here: http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,22233.270.html
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: EX_RCAC_011 on January 01, 2006, 17:10:22
I've seen a lot of talk about what batallions will make up the group....did everyone forget that the Eng,armd,arty have very switched on troops as well? just thought this might lead to interesting discussion.

cheers
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: GO!!! on January 01, 2006, 18:02:11
....did everyone forget that the Eng,armd,arty have very switched on troops as well? just thought this might lead to interesting discussion.

Your blasphemy will be forgiven on this one occasion - we all know that if all of those sappers, troopers and gunners were "switched on" they would have become infanteers in the first place - instead of trying to sneak in the back door of the CSOR......  :D
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Troop on January 03, 2006, 02:09:48
Boys watch the Army News movie on the DND website, it will tell all. All the personel are being picked from 3 RCR, 15 from 3 PPCLI and 15 from 3 22e
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: SF2 on January 03, 2006, 11:02:22
Is this "selection" going to be only for the infantry companies?  Or will all trades have to "apply" and be selected?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Tracker 23A on January 03, 2006, 11:50:01
CANFORGEN 195/05 DCDS 185 201320Z DEC 05
CANADIAN SPECIAL OPERATIONS REGIMENT (CDN SPEC OPS REGT) IMPLEMENTATION AND
RECRUITING CAMPAIGN 2006 - CDN SPEC OPS REGT OPERATORS AND SUPPORTERS
UNCLASSIFIED
1. THE RECENT CREATION OF THE CANADIAN SPECIAL OPERATIONS
FORCES COMMAND (CANSOFCOM) PROVIDES THE CANADIAN GOVT AND CDS WITH AN AGILE,
HIGH READINESS SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCE (SOF) CAPABLE OF CONDUCTING SPECIAL
OPERATIONS ACROSS THE SPECTRUM OF CONFLICT AT HOME AND ABROAD.
2. THE CDN SPEC OPS REGT WILL BE AN INTEGRAL COMPONENT OF
CANSOFCOM, AND WILL PROVIDE A RAPID RESPONSE CAPABILITY FOR SPECIAL
OPERATION MISSIONS THROUGHOUT CANADA AND THE WORLD. THE CDN SPEC OPS REGT
WILL COMPLEMENT JTF 2 AND WILL BE CAPABLE OF INDEPENDENT HIGH-READINESS
COMBAT OPS. CDN SPEC OPS REGT ROLES INCLUDE SUPPORT TO COUNTER-TERRORISM,
DIRECT ACTION, SPECIAL RECONNAISSANCE, NON-COMBATANT EVACUATION OPERATIONS,
AS WELL AS DEFENCE DIPLOMACY AND MILITARY ASSISTANCE. POTENTIAL CANDIDATES
CAN EXPECT CHALLENGING AND DYNAMIC EMPLOYMENT IN SMALL TEAMS AS A PART OF AN
OPERATIONALLY FOCUSED UNIT. TO FACILITATE IMPLEMENTATION, THE UNIT WILL FILL
POSITIONS AND CONDUCT TRAINING AND ASSESSMENT USING A PHASED APPROACH:
A. PHASE I (JAN TO MAR 06). AN INITIAL
IMPLEMENTATION CADRE CONSISTING OF APPROXIMATELY 60 SELECTED UNIT HQ AND
COMBAT SERVICE SUPPORT PERS WILL BE POSTED TO THE CFB PETAWAWA BASED UNIT IN
EARLY 06. SCREENING OF ALL CDN SPEC OPS REGT VOLUNTEERS FROM ACROSS THE CF
COMMENCES AT HOME BASES AND UNITS.
B. PHASE II (FEB TO APR 06). CLS WILL SCREEN A
FORMED COMPANY GROUP IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE PROCEDURE BELOW AND AS ORDERED
IN SEPARATE CLS INSTRUCTIONS. SOME FURTHER AUGMENTEES TO THIS COMPANY WILL
BE SELECTED FROM ACROSS THE CF.
C. PHASE III (APR - AUG 06). INITIAL CDN SPEC
OPS REGT TRAINING AND ASSESSMENT WILL BE CONDUCTED. UNIT REACHES INITIAL
OPERATIONAL CAPABILITY.
D. PHASE IV (POST APS 06). FURTHER GROWTH OF
CDN SPEC OPS REGT TO FULL OPERATIONAL CAPABILITY AT A PACE DIRECTED BY CDS.
3. PERS FOR THIS JOINT UNIT WILL BE RECRUITED FROM ACROSS THE
CF, INCL PRIMARY RESERVE PERS. THE UNIT WILL BE COMPRISED OF TWO CATEGORIES
OF PERS:
A. CATEGORY (CAT) 1: CDN SPEC OPS REGT
OPERATORS - CONSIST OF CDN SPEC OPS REGT OPS AND SPECIALISTS (SPEC) WHO ARE
DIRECTLY EMPLOYED IN THE TACTICAL ASPECTS OF SPECIAL OPERATIONS AND HIGH
VALUE TASKS. CDN SPEC OPS REGT OPERATORS (CAT 1) IS OPEN TO BOTH GENDERS OF
ANY MOC AND RANK FROM PTE/OS TO MWO/CPO2 AND LT/SLT TO MAJ/LCDR.
B. CAT 2: SUPPORT (SP) - CONSISTS OF SP PERS
SELECTED FROM REGULAR FORCE AND RESERVE FORCE MOCS TO FULFIL CDN SPEC OPS
REGT REQUIREMENTS IN STAFF AND SUPPORT POSNS.
4. BASED ON THE COMPRESSED TIMELINES, AND TO ENSURE THAT THE
CDN SPEC OPS REGT RECRUITING PROCESS DOES NOT HAVE AN ADVERSE EFFECT ON THE
OP CAPABILITES OF OTHER CF UNITS, UNIT CO S WILL HAVE THE OPTION TO DEFER
ANY APPLICATIONS FOR UP TO ONE YEAR. THIS DEFERRAL CAN ONLY BE USED ONCE PER
INDIV. ALL CF PERSONNEL CAN APPLY FOR CDN SPEC OPS REGT, BUT THE ABOVE
RESTRICTIONS MUST BE NOTED ON THEIR APPLICATION FORMS.
5. IN ADDITION, THE CLS WILL IMPOSE SPECIFIC OTHER RESTRICTIONS
THAT WILL APPLY ONLY TO THE ARMY FIELD FORCE BASED ON THE OPERATIONAL
DEMANDS OF THE ARMY MANAGED READINESS PLAN. DETAILS WILL BE AVAILABLE
THROUGH THE ARMY CHAIN OF COMMAND.
6. WING/BASE PERSONNEL SELECTION OFFICER WILL COMMENCE
SCREENING OF VOLUNTEERS FOR POSNS ON A CONTINUAL BASIS. HOWEVER,
APPLICATIONS FOR THE FIRST CDN SPEC OPS REGT TRAINING AND ASSESSMENT CRSE
(CAT 1) MUST BE RECEIVED BY THE CDN SPEC OPS REGT RECRUITING AND SELECTION
CELL NLT 1 MAR 06. THE DEADLINE FOR CAT 2 APPLICATIONS IS 1 APR 06. WHILE
MOST CDN SPEC OPS REGT POSITIONS ARE DESIGNATED 971- ANY MOC, A LIST OF
SPECIFIC MOCS AND RANKS BEING SOUGHT ARE LISTED AT THE END OF TEXT.
7. PRE-REQUISITES FOR CAT 1 AND 2 PERS ARE AS FOLS:
A. MIN SECUR LEVEL 1. NOTE: ALL CDN SPEC OPS
REGT MBRS MUST HOLD MIN LEVEL 2. APPLICANTS WITHOUT LEVEL 2 MUST NOT HAVE
ANY ADMIN ISSUES OR DISCIPLINARY INCIDENTS THAT WOULD PREVENT THE MBR FROM
ATTAINING A LEVEL 2 CLEARANCE.
B. MIN MED CAT IS 332225. NOTE: VISION MUST BE
CORRECTABLE TO V1 (INTERIM POLICY).
C. REG F MBRS MUST HAVE MIN OF 2 YRS SERVICE.
NCMS MUST BE MIN QL3 AND OFFRS MUST BE FULLY MOC QUALIFIED. CAT 1 PERS MUST
BE PREP FOR A RESTRICTED RELEASE AGREEMENT OF 3 YRS SERVICE IMPOSED UPON
SUCCESSFUL COMPLETION OF BASIC CDN SPEC OPS REGT TRAINING.
D. RESERVISTS MUST HAVE A MIN OF 3 YRS SERVICE.
NCMS MUST BE MIN QL 3 AND OFFICERS MUST BE QUALIFIED TO REG F STDS. RES F
CAT 1 APPLICANTS MUST BE PREPARED FOR A RESTRICTED RELEASE AGREEMENT OF A
MIN OF 3 YRS SERVICE AND BE PREPARED FOR COMPONENT TRANSFER TO THE REGULAR
FORCE ON COMPLETION OF THE CDN SPEC OPS REGT TRAINING AND ASSESSMENT CRSE.
RESERVE FORCES MEMBRS APPLYING FOR CAT 1 POSNS ARE REQUIRED TO FWD A COPY OF
THEIR MPRR (PPE 806 OR CF1007) TO THE CDN SPEC OPS REGT RECRUITING AND
SELECTION CELL IN ORDER TO SCREEN FOR ELIGIBILITY PRIOR TO APPLYING.
E. POSSESS A VALID CIVILIAN DRIVERS LICENCE
F. FOR CAT 1 PERS - APPLICANTS MUST NOT HAVE
PHOBIAS TO HEIGHTS, WATER OR CONFINED SPACES. APPLICANTS MUST BE BASIC PARA
QUALIFIED OR VOL FOR BASIC PARA TRAINING IF NOT QUALIFIED. PERS MUST BE PREP
TO CONDUCT INSERT/EXTRACT TRAINING WHICH WILL REQUIRE AN ABSENCE OF PHOBIAS
TO HEIGHTS AND A HIGH LEVEL OF PHYSICAL FITNESS.
8. SCREENING PROCESS
A. STEP 1 - UNIT APPLICATION: MBR VOL THROUGH
CHAIN OF COMMAND USING THE APPLICATION FORM FOR SERVICE WITH CDN SPEC OPS
REGT. FORMS WILL BE AVAILABLE AT THE WING/BASE PERSONNEL SELECTION OFFICER
OFFICES IN JAN 06 AND AVAILABLE AT THE CANSOFCOM WEBSITE ONCE ESTABLISHED.
CDN SPEC OPS REGT SELECTION WILL BE A HIGHLY COMPETITIVE PROCESS: UNITS ARE
ENCOURAGED TO SCREEN OUT BELOW-AVG PERFORMERS.
B. STEP 2 - PHYSICAL FITNESS SCREENING: MBR
UNDERGOES CDN SPEC OPS REGT PHYSICAL FITNESS EVALUATION AND SWIM TEST
ADMINISTERED BY PSP STAFF AT RESPECTIVE CF BASES. A PRE-SELECTION PHYSICAL
FITNESS TRAINING PROGRAM WILL BE PUBLISHED BY PSP IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

(1) FOR PERS APPLYING FOR CAT 1 POSNS, THE 2 STEP /
2 DAY EVALUATION PROCESS IS AS FOLS: PART 1 (DAY 1): 20 METER SHUTTLE RUN
LEVEL 9 (MIN 5 MIN REST) MIN 40 PUSHUPS (CONTINUOUS) (MIN 2 MIN REST) MIN 40
SITUPS (IN ONE MINUTE) (MIN 2 MIN REST) MIN 5 PULLUPS (MIN 15 MIN REST)
COMBAT SWIM TEST (25 M SWIM IN COMBATS, BOOTS, RIFLE, NO FLOATATION) PART 2
(DAY 2): 13 KM WEIGHT LOADED MARCH WITH 35 KG IN 2 HRS, 26 MINS (MIN 10 MIN
BREAK) CASUALTY EVACUATION OF A SOLDIER OF SIMILAR BUILD/WEIGHT FOR A
DISTANCE OF 100M IN LESS THAN 60 SECS. PERS APPLYING FOR CAT 1 POSNS ARE
ENCOURAGED TO PERFORM TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITY ON THE PERSONNEL FITNESS
TEST. PERSONNEL FITNESS TEST SCORES WILL BE USED AS PART OF THE SELECTION
PROCESS, WITH PREFERENCE GIVEN TO THOSE WITH HIGHER SCORES.

(2) CAT 2 - SP (2 DAY PROCESS) PART 1 (DAY 1): CF
EXPRES (MPFS); BASIC MILITARY SWIM TEST (WATER SAFETY KNOWLEDGE, ABANDON
SHIP EMERGENCIES, RUDIMENTARY SWIMMING SKILLS) PART 2 (DAY 2): 13 KM WEIGHT
LOADED MARCH WITH 24.5 KG IN 2 HRS, 26 MINS (ARMY FITNESS STD) (MIN 10 MIN
BREAK) CASUALTY EVACUATION OF A SOLDIER OF SIMILAR BUILD/WEIGHT FOR A
DISTANCE OF 100M IN LESS THAN 60 SECS.
C. FOR ALL PERS, UNIT TO FWD COMPLETED
APPLICATION PACKAGE TO WING/BASE PERSONNEL SELECTION OFFICER INCLUDING:

(1) APPLICATION FOR SERVICE WITH CDN SPEC OPS REGT

(2) CDN SPEC OPS REGT PHYSICAL FITNESS AND SWIM TEST
RESULTS

(3) UER

(4) PERS FILE, AND

(5) CONDUCT SHEET (IF APPLICABLE)
D. STEP 3 - BPSO SCREENING: TO BE CONDUCTED BY
THE WING/BASE PERSONNEL SELECTION OFFICER AND WILL INCLUDE COGNITIVE ABILITY
AND PERSONALITY ASSESSMENT, AS WELL AS A WING/BASE PERSONNEL SELECTION
OFFICER INTERVIEW. APPLICANT FILES WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED BY WING/BASE
PERSONNEL SELECTION OFFICER UNLESS THERE IS PROOF OF SUCCESSFUL COMPLETION
OF PHYSICAL FITNESS TEST.
E. IT IS THE UNIT'S RESPONSIBILITY TO FORWARD
THE FOLLOWING DOCS FOR EACH APPLICANT TO THE CDN SPEC OPS REGT RECRUITING
AND SELECTION CELL PRIOR TO THE APPLICATION DEADLINE:

(1) CF 285 (PSO REPORT)

(2) APPLICATION FORM

(3) PHYSICAL FITNESS/SWIM TEST RESULTS
F. UNITS WILL BE INFORMED BY MSG AS TO WHICH
APPLICANTS HAVE BEEN SELECTED TO PROGRESS TO THE NEXT PHASE OF THE
ASSESSMENT PROCESS.
9. CDN SPEC OPS REGT TRAINING AND ASSESSMENT
A. TRAINING AND ASSESSMENT - FOR CAT 1 PERS,
SELECTED CANDIDATES WILL ATTEND THE CDN SPEC OPS REGT TRAINING AND
ASSESSMENT COURSE. THE INITIAL COURSE, TO BE HELD IN APR-JUL 06 (TBC), WILL
FOCUS PRIMARILY ON THE INITIAL LEADERSHIP AND COMPANY GROUP (FROM CLS) FOR
THE UNIT. THE SECOND TRAINING AND ASSESSMENT COURSE IS SCHEDULED FOR FALL
06. SUCCESSFUL CAT 1 APPLICANTS WILL BE ON TEMPORARY DUTY FOR THE TRAINING
AND ASSESSMENT PERIOD. THIS PHYSICALLY AND MENTALLY DEMANDING TRAINING WILL
EVALUATE THE REQUIRED ATTRIBUTES SUCH AS STRESS TOLERANCE, PERSEVERANCE,
ABSENCE OF PHOBIAS, PHYSICAL FITNESS, ADAPTABILITY, AND WPNS HANDLING.
SUCCESSFUL OPERATORS MUST HAVE THE ABILITY TO OPERATE INDPENDENTLY OR IN
SMALL TEAMS, UNDER ADVERSE, AMBIGUOUS CONDITIONS.
B. FOR CAT 2 PERS, SELECTED INDIVIDUALS WILL BE
INTERVIEWED BY CDN SPEC OPS REGT PERS AND IF FOUND SUITABLE, WILL ATTEND
ORIENTATION TRAINING AFTER ARRIVAL AT THE UNIT.
10. QUESTIONS REGARDING CDN SPEC OPS REGT SCREENING AND
TRAINING/ASSESSMENT SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO THE CANSOFCOM RECRUITING AND
SELECTION CELL USING THE TOLL FREE NUMBER 1-800- 959-9188. INFO ON CDN SPEC
OPS REGT WILL BE AVALABLE INITIALLY THROUGH THE CANSOFCOM REQUREMENT AND
SELECTION TEAM VISITS. IN EARLY 2006, INFO ON THE UNIT WILL ALSO BE
AVAILABLE AT THE CANSOFCOM WEBSITE.
11. CONCLUSION. THE CREATION OF CDN SPEC OPS REGT WILL PROVIDE
THE CF WITH A RELEVANT, RESPONSIVE AND EFFECTIVE SPECIAL OPERATIONS UNIT TO
COMPLEMENT AND ENHANCE EXISTING CAPABILITIES. MISSIONS WILL INCLUDE A WIDE
RANGE OF HIGH VALUE TASKS SUCH AS SUPPORT TO COUNTER-TERRORISM OPS, LONG
RANGE RECONAISSANCE, INSERTION AND EXTRACTION OPERATIONS, THROUGH TO THE
EVACUATION OF NON-COMBATANTS. THE NATURE OF THIS JOB WILL REQUIRE
INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE INTELLIGENT, PHYSICALLY FIT, AND PREPARED TO TRAIN AND
MAINTAIN A HIGH LEVEL OF PROFICIENCY ON A WIDE VARIETY OF CRITICAL SKILLS.
IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT THE CHAIN OF COMD SUPPORT PERSONNEL VOLUNTEERING FOR
CDN SPEC OPS REGT TO THE FULLEST EXTENT POSSIBLE.
12. A LIST OF SPECIFIC MOCS AND RANKS REQUIRED IN THE CDN SPEC
OPS REGT APPEARS BELOW: LIST 1 - CAT 1 (OP) MOC RK POSNS (EXAMPLES) ANY MAJ
OFFICER COMMANDING ANY CAPT COMPANY SECOND IN COMMAND/PLATOON COMMANDER ARTY
(FOO) CAPT FORWARD OBSERVATION OFFICER / FORWARD AIR CONTROLLER 84 SIGS CAPT
SIGNALS OFFICER ANY MWO COMPANY SERGEANT MAJOR / OPERATIONS COMPANY SERGEANT
MAJOR ANY WO COMPANY QUARTERMASTER/TEAM LEADER / PLATOON WARRANT 021 ARTY FD
WO MORTAR LEADER 732 MED TECH WO/MWO (PHYSICIAN ASSISTANT QUALIFIED) 215 SIG
OP WO ANY SGT TEAM SECOND IN COMMAND / TRANSPORT NON COMMISSIONED
OFFICER/OPERATIONS SGT 021 ARTY FD SGT/MBDR MORDER LEADER SECOND IN COMMAND/
FORWARD OBSERVATION OFFICER TECH 043 CBT ENGR SGT/MCPL ENGINER LEADER SECOND
IN COMMAND 215 SIG OP /CIS OP CPL-SGT 737 MED TECH CPL-SGT 031 INF MCPL
(BASIC SNIPER QUALIFIED) ANY MCPL COMPANY QUARTERMASTER SECOND IN COMMAND
043 CBT ENGR CPL/PTE 021 FD ARTY CPL/PTE ANY CPL/PTE LIST 2 - CAT 2 (SP) MOC
RK POSNS (EXAMPLES) 43 EME/78 LOG MAJ OFFICER COMMANDEING 55 MED/78 LOG
MAJ/CAPT 43 EME/78 LOG CAPT COMPANY SECOND IN COMMAND/ S4 LOGISTIC
OPERATIONS 78 LOG (TPT, FIN, SUP) CAPT 66 PAO CAPT 82 INT CAPT 32 PLT (TAC
HEL) CAPT 71 MARS LT(N) 836 RMS CLK CPL-SGT 411 VEH TECH PTE-WO 111 INT OP
WO/MCPL 142 GEO TECH SGT 215 SIG OP/ CIS OP CPL-SGT 227 LCIS TECH SGT 052
LINEMAN CPL 911 SUP TECH CPL-MWO 911 (AIR DROP SPEC/ RIGGER) PTE-SGT 811 MP
CPL-SGT 935 MSE OP PTE-WO 933 TFC TECH SGT/WO 921 AMMO TECH CPL-SGT 647 WFE
TECH PTE/CPL 421 WPNS TECH LAND CPL-SGT 434 FCS TECH CPL-SGT 441 MAT TECH
CPL 642 ED TECH CPL/MCPL ANY PTE/CPL
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: SF2 on January 03, 2006, 12:07:21
Quote
2) CAT 2 - SP (2 DAY PROCESS) PART 1 (DAY 1): CF
EXPRES (MPFS); BASIC MILITARY SWIM TEST (WATER SAFETY KNOWLEDGE, ABANDON
SHIP EMERGENCIES, RUDIMENTARY SWIMMING SKILLS) PART 2 (DAY 2): 13 KM WEIGHT
LOADED MARCH WITH 24.5 KG IN 2 HRS, 26 MINS (ARMY FITNESS STD) (MIN 10 MIN
BREAK) CASUALTY EVACUATION OF A SOLDIER OF SIMILAR BUILD/WEIGHT FOR A
DISTANCE OF 100M IN LESS THAN 60 SECS.

Thank you, thats exactly what I was looking for......
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: ArmyVern on January 03, 2006, 12:24:58
Well, I'm reading this:
Quote
A. CATEGORY (CAT) 1: CDN SPEC OPS REGT APPLICANTS MUST BE BASIC PARA QUALIFIED OR VOL FOR BASIC PARA TRAINING IF NOT QUALIFIED.
And then seeing this:
Quote
B. STEP 2 - PHYSICAL FITNESS SCREENING: CAT ONE MBR ....
MIN 5 PULLUPS
And this:
Quote
PERS APPLYING FOR CAT 1 POSNS ARE ENCOURAGED TO PERFORM TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITY ON THE PERSONNEL FITNESS TEST. PERSONNEL FITNESS TEST SCORES WILL BE USED AS PART OF THE SELECTION
PROCESS, WITH PREFERENCE GIVEN TO THOSE WITH HIGHER SCORES.

So, I'm just gonna throw this in...those that can not do at least 7 pull-ups need not apply as 7 is the minimum standard to pass the Basic Para Course.

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: SF2 on January 03, 2006, 12:35:15
well, how long ago did you do the jump course?  Perhaps people have lapsed a little in their pull up abilities.....
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: ArmyVern on January 03, 2006, 13:19:43
well, how long ago did you do the jump course?  Perhaps people have lapsed a little in their pull up abilities.....
I didn't do it.
But I guess they had better whip themselves back into shape pretty quick if they can't still do their 7. After all....they'll need to be able to do 7 on a bad day to pass their Basic Para as is required by the CANFORGEN...and I suspect those who are Basic Para qualified can either 1) still do their 7 being in jump coys or still very fit or
2) if they have lapsed in their jump time will be doing the good old Para Refresher...which also has a 7 pull-up requirement.

Either way, they're going to eventually have to do 7 minimum. So why not work up to comply with that "PERFORM TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITY" part now?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: GO!!! on January 03, 2006, 19:15:41
Either way, they're going to eventually have to do 7 minimum. So why not work up to comply with that "PERFORM TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITY" part now?

Because we have become an army of "the minimum is good enough".

Good to see some action on getting this unit off the ground though - if the conservatives win, Harper will probably take the credit for it too, since he has already promised to create an "airborne strike force"
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Petamocto on January 05, 2006, 01:20:43
Basic Para test is 7 chin ups (wrists facing you).  More bicep used.

CSOR test is 5 pull ups (wrists away from you, otherwise known as overhand).  More back used.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: ArmyVern on January 05, 2006, 01:26:44
Basic Para test is 7 chin ups (wrists facing you).  More bicep used.

CSOR test is 5 pull ups (wrists away from you, otherwise known as overhand).  More back used.

Aha!! Well this part of the message now makes sense then. So, ultimately/eventually they'll have to be able to do both in the end. Thanks for the clarification on that.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Cool Breeze on January 05, 2006, 01:54:46
The CSOR selection itself seems to be pretty short - only 2 days - and seems more like the JTF2's Cooper Test with some extra stuff on top. JTF2 has their 7 day selection before candidates can go on SOAC. I'm just thinking that the actual 2 day selection course - not the fitness test - seems to be a little too short. It seems more like a standard fitness test than an actual selection. Perhaps the real selection will be on the CSOR course. Both the JTF2 and CSOR seem to have very similar minimum standards. I've always wondered for JTF2 but now for both these unit's why the minimum standards are set at such a level because honestly I believe that a CSOR operator or a special operations assaulter should be much more capable than just 40 pushups or 5 pull-ups. I guess this is where the cadre taking those with the highest scores come in.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: signalsguy on January 05, 2006, 08:09:29
That is why they tell you that meeting the minimum standard is not acceptable and that maximum effort is to be expended on each portion of the test.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: SF2 on January 05, 2006, 11:42:02
Don't forget, those minimum standards are for selection for training.  Passing the training is a whole other, rather large, can of worms.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Petamocto on January 05, 2006, 12:23:25
Correct, the two-day exam listed above for the fitness test and BFT is only the fitness part of the try outs.

That does not include the pers file review, the interview, and the actual training.

You don't sign your three year contract with them until you pass the complete selection.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: GO!!! on January 05, 2006, 23:28:56
Stop it, man.  I'm tearing up with nostalgia... :'(

Ever notice that nothing in the army is similar to the words that descibe it?

para refreshers - not refreshing

work party - not a party

friendly fire - not friendly

and after all of that torture when you are in - everyone seems to get all teary thinking about it ten years later - why?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: QV on January 07, 2006, 01:17:56
Finally.  I am glad to hear about this CSOR start up.  I am trying out for sure.  The only negative I see so far in this initiative is that the unit will be based out of Petawawa.  Its too bad they couldn't set it up at a better posting. 

The reason I remustered from the infantry was that there just wasn't anything going on anymore (bugdet cuts, Bosnia roto 800,000 - pffft).  This is definately a step forward.

I also think that if the conservatives get in, it will only be a good thing for the CF and the CSOR. 

Heres to a step in the right direction! :cheers:

 :skull: 
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: MCG on January 07, 2006, 04:24:20
I also think that if the conservatives get in, it will only be a good thing for the CF and the CSOR. 
I'm still concerned by the Conservative defence critic's statement that they might not keep CSOR.  The Trenton parachute battalion is a higher priority for them.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Slim on January 07, 2006, 09:36:23
I hope that Steven Harper has the good sense to replace the defense critic with someone halfway competent if/when they get into power. The current one has done all kinds of damage just by talking for heaven's sake!

Cheers
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: SHELLDRAKE!! on January 07, 2006, 10:04:15
 Has anyone in Pet, seen or heard of plans for the new infrastructure being built for CSOR? Any ideas where its going.......maybee the old airstrip?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: SF2 on January 07, 2006, 11:18:32
The old airstrip you refer to will never be rebuilt.  Its way too small, and there's already too much stuff built there.  I have heard about a "trailer park" being set up down near 427 Sqn.  I assume that's going be the temp. spot while the buildings are constructed.

Pembroke is close enough and already has an embarkation centre.  There's a grass strip at 427 Sqn that they are considering paving.  But I haven't heard anything solid about it.
Don't be scared of Petawawa.  Sure, its a bit out of the way, but the summers are awsome. Nice beaches, probably the best boating in Ontario besides Muskoka.  Winters are a little harsh, but if you're into snowmobiling, you'll be in heaven.

I think CSOR will continue.  Like I said before, there's an almost unstoppable momentum behind it.  I think the CDS will see this through to the death before he lets it get cancelled.  Its his baby after all.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Technoviking on January 07, 2006, 14:53:15
I'm still concerned by the Conservative defence critic's statement that they might not keep CSOR.  The Trenton parachute battalion is a higher priority for them.
I'm fairly certain that if elected, a Conservative government would keep the CSOR (in principle), rename it "The Canadian Airborne Regiment" and perhaps move it to Trenton.  Just my $0.02 worth.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: QV on January 07, 2006, 15:02:01
I don't recall exactly but did the Conservatives say they wanted to bring back the CAR or create a new airborne unit?  It was probably said earlier but I think that the idea of the CSOR would be a more suitable choice then just creating an airborne infantry battalion.  But hey, if we can get both that would be good.

 :skull: 
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: geo on January 07, 2006, 15:07:23
I'm fairly certain that if elected, a Conservative government would keep the CSOR (in principle), rename it "The Canadian Airborne Regiment" and perhaps move it to Trenton.  Just my $0.02 worth.
Appreceate your thought (wishful thinking) but there is no advantage to giving the CSOR a name like the CAR that would be a lightning rod for everyone that is anti-military. Call it CSOR or CSAS or the Ping Pong Fusiliers and let's get down to business (the name doesn't matter - make your own history).
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: SF2 on January 07, 2006, 15:13:12
It would be silly to "move" this unit to Trenton.  I don't see why the conservatives are so hell bent on having a unit there.  SO they'll be close to hercs?  Pembroke is quite close for embarkation.  There's no training area there. They've already established an HQ in Pet, they're going to start building, and will be co-located the 427 Special Ops Aviation Sqn.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: MCG on January 07, 2006, 15:15:08
I don't recall exactly but did the Conservatives say they wanted to bring back the CAR or create a new airborne unit? 
They said they would be "creating a new airborne battalion."

Like I said before, there's an almost unstoppable momentum behind it.  I think the CDS will see this through to the death before he lets it get cancelled.  Its his baby after all.
Nothing has enough momentum that a CDS can see it through against the will of Cabinet.

I'm fairly certain that if elected, a Conservative government would keep the CSOR (in principle), rename it "The Canadian Airborne Regiment" and perhaps move it to Trenton. 
I think this is very likely, however in the same action they may also redefine its roll & capabilities such that we would no longer be getting a unit that covers off equivalent functions of both the US Army Rangers and the US Army Special Forces.  Maybe that "Green Beret" function would be given to the JTF, but as of yet the party will not give its opinion/vision of CSOR.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: trucker00 on January 07, 2006, 15:37:03
Doesn't the JTF already do what the CSOR is being designed for? If so what will happen with the JTF and there roll, will they strictly be an anti terrorist unit?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: SF2 on January 07, 2006, 15:46:26
no....

the easiest way to describe it is think of Blackhawk Down.

Delta is JTF2.
Rangers is CSOR.

Yes, there are many other roles the CSOR will be doing, but in a nutshell, that is the best way to describe it without giving them a 2 hr briefing.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: MCG on January 07, 2006, 17:21:34
Delta is JTF2.
Rangers is CSOR.
The CF presentation fo CSOR to the press has it filling functions of both the US Army Rangers & the US Army Special Forces ("Green Berets").
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: SF2 on January 07, 2006, 17:27:31
yes, hence my
Quote
Yes, there are many other roles the CSOR will be doing, but in a nutshell, that is the best way to describe it without giving them a 2 hr briefing.

please don't quote me out of context.....
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: MCG on January 07, 2006, 17:47:06
please don't quote me out of context.....
As your post was just two up, I don't feel that my addition would see anyone take you out of context.  However, in a few words (not two hours), I added a fair amount of detail for anyone familiar with the function of the US Army Special Forces (or for anyone intrested in doing the research).
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: SF2 on January 07, 2006, 17:52:39
fair enough, but keep in mind there are many on here who WON'T do the research (hence all the locked, repetetive posts) and those who aren't familiar with US Military units.

Cheers
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Cool Breeze on January 08, 2006, 14:08:52
Doesn't the JTF already do what the CSOR is being designed for? If so what will happen with the JTF and there roll, will they strictly be an anti terrorist unit?

Here is a more detailed answer - I'm not 100% positive on all this so if anyone knows the proper definitions please feel free to make corrections. There are different levels or tiers across the special operations spectrum. A Tier 1 unit is basically a special forces unit capable of performing practically all operations across the spec ops spectrum and usually has a counterterrorism/hostage rescue tasking e.g. 1st SFOD-D, Dev Group, 22nd SAS, SASR, and JTF2. However because of their size they are normally responsible for more surgical missions and are not tasked with larger scale ops even though operators would no doubt have the know how to do so. They are also branded as "world class." A Tier 2 unit is basically a Tier 1 unit without the counterterrorism tasking. Tier 3 is a broader category. These outfits usually provide direct action support to Tier 1 and 2 units and are also responsible for conventional (non-special) operations e.g. US Army Rangers. Keep in mind though that there are a lot of units especially in the US military that have a hostage rescue capability. A lot of units are trained to extract hostages but only Delta and Dev Group are tasked with federal level hostage rescue - just like JTF2. The CSOR once stood up will be responsible for the Non-Combatant Evacuation or NEO tasking. This may have a hostage rescue aspect. Also keep in mind that many people think of counterterrorism as guys in black assault kit fast roping onto rooftops, clearing rooms, and rescuing civilians. This is basically just hostage rescue. I believe that counterterrorism is more broad than that. For example a hostage rescue op can take place anywhere not necessarily in a built up area. So if it takes place in say a camp in a rugged mountain area you most likely won't have guys in black and the assaulters will have to be adept in operating in that kind of terrain. You also have other considerations before the actual rescue such as special reconaissance to gather the intelligence for the op as well as how to actually get in and get out (insertion and extraction) which would be different depending on the environment of the mission. So as you can see counterterrorism involves a lot of skills/capabilities that are found in Tier 2 units. To wrap it up, the JTF2 is a Tier 1 unit and in the end for the most part the CSOR will be able to fill Tier 2 and 3 roles in some respects. If anyone has any other definitions please feel free to correct my mistakes.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: Good2Golf on January 08, 2006, 15:28:25
Interestingly, a Tier 1 unit need not be military....CONUS Tier 1 is provided by the FBI HRT (http://www.specwarnet.com/taclink/Federal/FBI_HRT.htm) which even more interestingly has a SOAU that operates four Bell 412 helicopters...kind of like the Griffon! ;D  Seems like 412's aren't so bad for Dom HR...

Cheers,
Duey 
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: SF2 on January 08, 2006, 15:43:09
And those who operate the Griffon in that role completely agree with you Duey.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: QV on January 08, 2006, 17:43:57
Any idea what the training course will entail for the Catagory 1 applicants and how long it will be?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: signalsguy on January 11, 2006, 17:03:15
Well you don't get that info for JTF-2, so why would you get it for CSOR?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Recce41 on January 12, 2006, 19:34:51
Just finished the first half of selection  ;D. There It's no damn secet, just get it from the DWAN CANFORGEN 195 Dec
05. It has it all.

 :evil: :tank:
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: signalsguy on January 13, 2006, 09:40:44
The fitness testing portion is out there, its the initial training stuff thats not!
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Recce41 on January 13, 2006, 13:03:04
As I stated, the web site has the training outline. The only ones who have to know are the ones that are going there. No non applicants. PSP still does not have the test sheets or the training package.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: MikeH on January 13, 2006, 13:14:58
Is there anyway to get the pre selection training package,besides going to psp staff for it? :army:
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: QV on January 14, 2006, 00:13:00
Thats funny, I went to the BPSO in Cold Lake on Monday (9th Jan) and they didn't have a clue what I was asking about.

Is that website Recce41 mentioned on the DIN or can I get to it from home?

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Mortar guy on January 14, 2006, 02:45:18
A clueless BPSO? I don't believe it!
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Technoviking on January 14, 2006, 13:21:44
A clueless BPSO? I don't believe it!
Chuck Norris believes it!  Did you know that BPSOs have a startling high rate of roundhouse kick related injuries each and every year?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Mortar guy on January 14, 2006, 14:25:19
Did you know that roundhouse related deaths increased 13,000% the year Chuck Norris was born?

MG
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Jungle on January 14, 2006, 14:40:12
Obviously, there will be some resistance to this: we are asking some people (BPSOs and PSPs, among others) to do a little more then before...  :o
Those who wish to volunteer, simply advise your C of C formally, the rest will follow  ;)
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Recce41 on January 14, 2006, 19:02:58
 The BPSO office does have the form in Gagetown. I'm complete ( Med file gone, COs letter, App form) up to the test. As far as the CM knows, I'm the only Armour WO to apply. The problem is that the CANFOR was out too early. As for the test here in Gagetown. Due to I'm tasked this fall. PSP may test without it. I'll be finding out next week. As for the pretraining. Just do as I have been doing, keep fit.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: painswessex on January 20, 2006, 17:19:16
They will be wearing Tan berets. The CO will be very upset at any member who calls it CSOR.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: meni0n on January 20, 2006, 17:27:00
Does anyone know the testing standards for the support positions? Or are they the same ones as the operator? The ones that came with the application were only the operator standards, at least that's how I understood it after reading them.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: signalsguy on January 20, 2006, 17:34:36
The CO will be very upset at any member who calls it CSOR.

Why do you say that?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: painswessex on January 20, 2006, 19:01:02
Support standars are:

BFT in 2hrs 26, fireman carry in 60 sec Xpress test and basic swim test 25m.

signalsguy:   

I say that because that is what we have been told he does not like us calling it CSOR he wants us to use the full name.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: meni0n on January 20, 2006, 22:50:57
That looks exactly like the one for the operator only there was also the 40 pushups, 40 situps and 3 pull ups.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: painswessex on January 21, 2006, 08:17:47
That looks exactly like the one for the operator only there was also the 40 pushups, 40 situps and 3 pull ups.

That is for cat 1 pers cat 2 (suport) standars are as i discribed above
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Recce41 on January 21, 2006, 20:57:48
 For (Cat 1) lvl 9 fitness, 40 pushups, 40 situps, 5 pull ups, 25m swim thats day one. Day 2 is the BFT. I go for my test mid Feb. PSP her in Gage has not come out with the exact dates. If I don't go in Feb it'll be after I instruct the ARCC. Doing that would be better, more reps more points. As far as I know I'm the only Armor WO. There is one MCPL trying out, but he's one of my students, we're in the same boat. The is an Armour fellow, so we'll blend in well.
Title: Special Operations Regiment and Airborne Battalion
Post by: cameron on January 22, 2006, 12:30:03
I'd like to put my 2 cents in regarding the new Canadian Special Operations Regiment and the Conservatives proposed Airborne Battalion.  Some are questioning whether there is need for the two units in the Canadian Forces, in my opinion there is.  If we look at other militaries, we can see that many of them have conventional airborne units and still specop units trained in a variety of airborne tactics.  For example, the Dutch Army has both an Airmobile Brigade and a Commando Corp.  The British have the Parachute Regiment and the Royal Marine Commandos.  The Italians, the Bersagliere and Alpine Commandos and the list goes on.  

Concern has been voiced that a small military like Canada's will not be able to provide enough high quality volunteers for two such units and that they will cannibalize the rest of the CF of their best people.  While the Liberals have recently made some increases in military spending, this potential problem can be solved by investing much more in the defence budget, particularly in the area of recruiting.  The DND/CF needs to embark on an extremely aggressive, well funded recruitment drive, utilizing all media, print and electronic.  It is true that in any nation with a booming economy, attracting sufficient recruits of a high calibre into the military is always a challenge because the Armed Forces have to compete with other more financially attactive sectors.  Any Canadian government needs to raise the public profile of the military and enhance its image such that it becomes one of the most exciting and attractive career options for bright young men and women coming out of high school or university.  In the past the Canadian military has fielded some of the most famous elite units in military history.  During WW2 it fielded the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion and contributed greatly to the US/Canadian Special Service Force.  I am quite certain that if a seriously sufficient investment is made in increasing the human resource of the CF, then it will again be able to field two of the best elite forces the world has ever seen. Best of  luck to the CF in its ongoing transformation to meet the ever evolving threats of this uncertain and unstable world which we all have to live in. :threat:
Title: Re: Special Operations Regiment and Airborne Battalion
Post by: calgarytanks on January 22, 2006, 12:42:05
Don't forget the 1ssf ws disbanded after only a year of combat service in Italy and southern France because there was no need for them, though.
Title: Re: Special Operations Regiment and Airborne Battalion
Post by: Steve on January 22, 2006, 13:09:10
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,35793.0.html

Title: Re: Special Operations Regiment and Airborne Battalion
Post by: GO!!! on January 22, 2006, 14:01:28
I don't think trotting out the age old claims that "well, we were great once, 50 years ago" is much of an argument.

The Canadian military was great when it had Physical standards, very few women or minorities, and lots of money. Those days are not coming back, so comparing the two is a bit misleading.

We also had a cause to rally behind, a common enemy and knowledge that when he was defeated, the boys would come home and be farmers again, so you are comparing apples and oranges. Trying to recruit for a standing military to deploy on overly politicised missions for a liberally minded government that fears having "soldiers with guns" in it's cities is a far cry from recruiting from depression ravaged farm communities to "fight the hun."
Title: Re: Special Operations Regiment and Airborne Battalion
Post by: tomahawk6 on January 22, 2006, 14:09:40
The British Army has the Special ReconRregiment.

http://news.mod.uk/news_headline_story.asp?newsItem_id=3210

I know we in the US have been very hard pressed to meet current SF requirements and we have an army of over 500,000. We essentially have the same SF organization that we had when we had an army of 750,000. I was in a chat the other day with some SF types that decried what they felt was a lowering of standards.

But this is not what the CF is doing. Rather you are going the route I think of super infantry, like our Ranger Regiment. This is alot easier to do with your much smaller manpower pool.
Also recruiting off the street might be easier because of the unit's appeal to youngsters. What we do find in the Ranger Regiment is that to keep the unit trained up it must have a high training/optempo. This creates burnout. Infantry units located at installations with Ranger battalions take these burned out soldiers, promote them, give them time off and their unit gains an outstanding new NCO. We also limit a tour with the Ranger Regiment to 3 years. The soldier goes to another unit and may or may not return to the Regiment.

If the CF recreates the CAR that too will help to supply airborne troops to both JTF2 and the SOR and to provide a place for soldiers to go to from those two organizations. Frankly I would like to see a large CAR - at least 2 battalions plus a reserve battalion.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: GO!!! on January 22, 2006, 14:16:25
Tomahawk,

The issue for Canada is that the cojones in our government simply do not exist for the deployment of such "offensive" forces.

The liberal left would rather have us picking up garbage in highway ditches when we are not busy handing out soccer balls to Kosovar children. I think that an Airborne unit would be excellent, but I also fear that it would be under - utilised, as the lefties demanded peacekeeping, instead of effective action.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rider Pride on January 22, 2006, 20:25:36
The CO will be very upset at any member who calls it CSOR.
Quote
I say that because that is what we have been told he does not like us calling it CSOR he wants us to use the full name.

You, LS, are out of your arcs with this one. Where on earth did you get this from? What would he prefer it to be called?

Outrageous

Cease and desist spouting more.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: George Wallace on January 22, 2006, 20:40:57
Support standars are:

BFT in 2hrs 26, fireman carry in 60 sec  Xpress test and basic swim test 25m.

Fireman's Carry for 100m in 60 Sec?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: ArmyVern on January 22, 2006, 20:46:58
Fireman's Carry for 100m in 60 Sec?
Yep.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: 2023 on January 22, 2006, 20:47:16
You, LS, are out of your arcs with this one. Where on earth did you get this from? What would he prefer it to be called?

Outrageous

Cease and desist spouting more.

I agree with you Army Medic............poser alert, poser alert, poser alert!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Ex-Dragoon on January 22, 2006, 20:53:22
His identity could easily be proven or disproven, after all some of you are in Pet and he is an LS supply tech in Pet.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: MJP on January 22, 2006, 20:55:46
Fireman's Carry for 100m in 60 Sec?

Why a question George?  Doesn't seem like an unreasonable expectation to me.  If these are the standards plus what Recce41 mentioned they actually seem a bit on the lower end of the scale than what I (and many others were expecting), but I gather they are just the bare minimuns...
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: Steve on January 22, 2006, 20:56:53
2 Svc Bn? Hmm. I thought my friend said he worked with an LS there.

If it is all legit, I'd be interested in hearing more.

If
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rider Pride on January 22, 2006, 21:19:35
His identity could easily be proven or disproven, after all some of you are in Pet and he is an LS supply tech in Pet.

Not worried. All it would take is 2 phone calls....Sgt's net is pretty tight.

Not worried about it though...after all only one of the two of us actually work in the building all this stuff is happening in.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: GO!!! on January 22, 2006, 23:38:46
I agree with you Army Medic............poser alert, poser alert, poser alert!!!!!!!

GO SHOW staff - "ready the rubber hose and video camera"

"will we be bringing the phone book on this one sir?"

"nope, the hose will do - he's navy"
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rider Pride on January 22, 2006, 23:44:20
CANFORGEN says you carry about 80lbs instead of 45-ish as is normal.

and where exactly in the CANFORGEN does it say that?

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,35793.msg316320.html#msg31632
Para 8.B.(1)
Quote
PART 2
(DAY 2): 13 KM WEIGHT LOADED MARCH WITH 35 KG IN 2 HRS, 26 MINS (MIN 10 MIN
BREAK) CASUALTY EVACUATION OF A SOLDIER OF SIMILAR BUILD/WEIGHT FOR A
DISTANCE OF 100M IN LESS THAN 60 SECS.

Edit: who invented this damn metric system.....sorry about that jgale
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Mortar guy on January 23, 2006, 01:42:51
Hey Armymedic,

35kgs equals 77lbs (i.e pretty damn close to 80lbs). So I guess you will now be apologizing to jgale seeing as he was right, eh?

Don't worry, I thought I made a mistake once too (turns out I was wrong).

MG
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: ArmyVern on January 23, 2006, 02:32:25
Well, it does say that for Cat1 pers:

Quote
(1) FOR PERS APPLYING FOR CAT 1 POSNS, THE 2 STEP /
2(DAY 2): 13 KM WEIGHT LOADED MARCH WITH 35 KG IN 2 HRS, 26 MINS (MIN 10 MIN BREAK) CASUALTY EVACUATION OF A SOLDIER OF SIMILAR BUILD/WEIGHT FOR A DISTANCE OF 100M IN LESS THAN 60 SECS.
Which I'd argue is pretty close to the 'normal' load carried by most personnel in jump posns/dismounted ops who would be applying for the 'door-kicker' posns.
and for Cat2 pers it reads:
Quote
(2) CAT 2 - SP (2 DAY PROCESS) (DAY 2): 13 KM WEIGHT LOADED MARCH WITH 24.5 KG IN 2 HRS, 26 MINS (ARMY FITNESS STD) (MIN 10 MIN
BREAK) CASUALTY EVACUATION OF A SOLDIER OF SIMILAR BUILD/WEIGHT FOR A DISTANCE OF 100M IN LESS THAN 60 SECS.
Which is indeed the 'normal' 45-ish lb load carried by most pers for their annual BFT and would be the req for any of us Sup. Maint etc aspiring to the Cat2 posns.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: painswessex on January 23, 2006, 07:29:06
You, LS, are out of your arcs with this one. Where on earth did you get this from? What would he prefer it to be called?

Outrageous

Cease and desist spouting more.

I am posted to the regiment Feb 1st if you want to call me i work at 2 svc bn.
Also on the issue of not calling it CSOR, my Mcpl told me she knows this because her husband is the ET over there and at the last meeting the CO told him he does not want it to be called that he wants the full name to be used. I appologise if i have offended anyone by sharing my excitement of being posted to theis new unit. I will cease.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: George Wallace on January 23, 2006, 08:24:35
Why a question George?  Doesn't seem like an unreasonable expectation to me....
Just never ever thought to time it myself.  Always seemed to take forever, after dropping my ruck and picking up a guy, hopefully my size or smaller.   ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: Good2Golf on January 23, 2006, 08:54:17
Isn't the job going to be more important than how someone pronounces the contraction for the unit.....*Duey thinks about the commander of 1 CAD flipping out and renaming to 1 Cdn Air Div*....uh, nevermind. :-\

Cheers,
Duey

p.s.  If I were CO of 427 SOAS, I wouldn't have a problem with "so-a$$" or "so-az"... ;-)
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Strike on January 23, 2006, 16:18:02
Duey,

I just read your reply to Randy and he says that's why you probably won't be the CO of 427.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Recce41 on January 23, 2006, 20:58:33
Why a question George?  Doesn't seem like an unreasonable expectation to me.  If these are the standards plus what Recce41 mentioned they actually seem a bit on the lower end of the scale than what I (and many others were expecting), but I gather they are just the bare minimuns...

I'm in pretty good shape, but two of us are training. Remember, that is the MIN numbers. I've been power training. But it's hard to do it alone. At 44 yrs old, it's aim for the min on your weak spots and max on yr strong. There is only 3 Armour fellas here trying.
If I pass and get my name on the list and don't get picked up Owell, at least I tryed. And will be able to be posted if an opening happens.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: MJP on January 23, 2006, 21:05:46
Like I said bud...I realized that they were the min numbers after I made my initial post and fixed it.  Some how I don't think just cutting by the min standards will do it in any case.  Good on ya for trying out at an age when most people are looking for their retirement posting...;)
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Recce41 on January 24, 2006, 07:09:41
Ya Thanks
 I know mins sometimes don't cut it. But at my age. I can hammer out lvl 11 ,12 if I push it, 70 PUs, 50 SUs/M, my weak spot is Pulls only 6 ( did 12 for JTF back 10 yrs ago). Swim can get 2 honest lapes. BFT, I had 1hr 51M in Nov.. So to me their realilistic. I remember the first selection for JTF. I had these LARGER fellas, not even do 2 pulls.
Talking to PSP, thats the common weak spot for people. I'm out instructing until March so 1st selection is out. I'm shooting for end March. That March 1 time frame, may have to move anyway. The numbers are not coming in as fast. So talking to a friend, they may decide to move the date.
A you said, at least I tryed, your right, retirment slump is the top spot for some people.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: geo on January 24, 2006, 18:08:06
jgale,
we'll just have to see - won't we.
but seriously.... for once, the CF was and is in a no lose situation.
they have indicated their support for everything that we are currently doing. They have indicated that they agree with CSOR & JTF2, Canada.com and the vision Gen Hillier has mapped out.
Are we going to flip flop on the Hellicopters again?,
Are we going to flip flop on the CC130Js?
Are we going to go forward with the new generation of Support ships?

Time will tell - and if we don't like what they're doing, we can vote them out of office next time around... and do this all over again... and do this all over again.

Hmmm.... Groundhog day is around here isn't it?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: painswessex on January 24, 2006, 18:35:02
com'on we cant lose alberta rednecks in power! They have and always will do whatever they can for the military.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: geo on January 24, 2006, 18:46:22
.... Oh... OK... so if the PC lose a confidence vote in the future, they can blame it on the Liberals, the NDP and the BQ for not wanting to "make it work".... and try to get a majority the next time around.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: Junius on January 24, 2006, 19:10:09
What does this mean:

F. FOR CAT 1 PERS - APPLICANTS MUST NOT HAVE
PHOBIAS TO HEIGHTS, WATER OR CONFINED SPACES. APPLICANTS MUST BE BASIC PARA
QUALIFIED OR VOL FOR BASIC PARA TRAINING IF NOT QUALIFIED.


Does it mean you have to be basic para, or that you would be willing to take basic para if it ever popped up?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: MikeL on January 24, 2006, 19:17:38
You either must already have your wings, or be willing to go on the course.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: OCdt.Banks on January 24, 2006, 19:43:46
can anybody give me a link where I could find a detailed info sheet about the creation of CSOR. So far I've goggled it and Nada. Real interested any link would be greatly appreciated.

UBIQUE!!!!
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: ArmyVern on January 24, 2006, 19:50:33
can anybody give me a link where I could find a detailed info sheet about the creation of CSOR. So far I've goggled it and Nada. Real interested any link would be greatly appreciated.

UBIQUE!!!!
That would be an OPSEC issue and I'm pretty sure you aren't going to get access to it on a public medium. I'd have to wager that what you find in this forum is probably as much as you're going to get.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Recce41 on January 24, 2006, 20:33:44
Another cadet, looking to impress his friends.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: yoman on January 24, 2006, 20:50:36
Another cadet, looking to impress his friends.

Or someone who is interested in this and is seeking more information.

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on January 24, 2006, 20:53:05
Or someone who is interested in this and is seeking more information.

Pretty sure I can give you this one without endangering OPSEC...It wasn't on the CANFORGEN, so it's juicy....Here Goes:

CSOR isn't taking apps from cadets at this point in time >:D
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: yoman on January 24, 2006, 20:58:21
CSOR isn't taking apps from cadets at this point in time >:D

The day they do is the day I quit and hide in my little hole.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rider Pride on January 24, 2006, 22:19:27
I learned a new word today:

Constraints

want me to use an example?

Quote
CLS Constraints

1.   TFs in 2006 are Quarantined.  CF members belonging to the 2006 TF’s will not be allowed to volunteer for JATF selection training until that 2006 TF unit is no longer at high readiness.  The potential leadership / personnel drain is too great a risk to be allowed.
2.   Strategic Reserve 06.  Those remnants of the 2006 Strategic Reserve not committed already to Op Archer will be quarantined for the same reasons as above.
3.   Base Petawawa.  Personnel from CFB Petawawa (not including personnel from 3 RCR, 2 CER, 2 RCHA) will not be allowed to volunteer for the selection phase of 2006.  There will be opportunities for selection during the remainder of the JATF build process.
4.   Specific Ranks and Trades.  The Army’s Managed Readiness plan has previously identified specific ranks and trades that are stressed and therefore currently unable to sustain the present Op Tempo (only one international deployment every three years).  Restrictions will be placed on these endangered trades (at the specific ranks) over the complete period of the JATF build.  These restrictions are intended to allow the Army to continue to FG the two lines of MSTFs with the least amount of risk while supporting CF expansion and the JATF build process.
5.   50% cap on both HQ and Admin Coy.  Due to the high Op Tempo of the CF, the Army will only accept 50% of the HQ and Admin Coy positions.  Exceeding this percentage will stress the under manned leadership ranks which are required for MSTF and Army expansion.
6.   Units Quarantined for 2007.  CF members in 2007 TFs will not be allowed to volunteer for the 2007 sustainment process.  There will be additional opportunities for selection during the remainder of the JATF build process.  The strategic reserve TF(-) will also be quarantined in 2007.

I also learned a new phase today too:

Commanding Officer's Discretion

In combination these two things may be bad for any applicants.
Particularly if you are in a unit such as mine which is underborne and anticipating operations in the next 5 months.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: MTH on January 25, 2006, 16:52:09
kick in a 160th SOAR style airlift capability? Something to consider when purchasing new helicopters, maybe over the top in terms of budget though.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: SF2 on January 25, 2006, 22:23:29
Quote
kick in a 160th SOAR style airlift capability? Something to consider when purchasing new helicopters, maybe over the top in terms of budget though
where have you been?  We've had this capability since the early 90's.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Cataract Kid on January 26, 2006, 00:09:50
where have you been?  We've had this capability since the early 90's.
I wasn't aware that we had a Canadian equivalent to the, AH/MH-6 Little Bird,  MH-60 Pave Hawk, and  MH-47E Chinook.
When did this come about?
Edited to add:

 http://www.army.mil/calltoduty/
Click "skip intro"
Bottom right click on "open" in the "Warriors Corner" box
Then click on the
"CW5 Byron C. Edmonds and
CW5 Don Tabron
160th Special Operations Aviation Reg
Ft Campbell
"Special Operations Aviation in Afghanistan""
Video/PPT link for more 16oth capabilities.

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: Good2Golf on January 26, 2006, 00:33:17
I wasn't aware that we had a Canadian equivalent to the, AH/MH-6 Little Bird,  MH-60 Pave Hawk, and  MH-47E Chinook.
When did this come about?
 


CH-135 and CH146-based "mid-size" (MH-60-ish equivalent) SOA since 1990.  I and many others have flown along side 160th SOAR(A) folks on exercises down South.  There have also been other opportunities to work with and discuss SOA issues with 160th pers.

Cheers,
Duey
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: Cataract Kid on January 26, 2006, 00:39:38
I and many others have flown along side 160th SOAR(A) folks on exercises down South.  There have also been other opportunities to work with and discuss SOA issues with 160th pers.

Cheers,
Duey
With all due respect sir, flying with and "having the same capabilities" are to diffrent animals.
Ive trained 10 SFGP (ABN) and 5th SFGP, doesn't mean that the Canadian military has the same capabilities.
Quote
CH-135 and CH146-based "mid-size" (MH-60-ish equivalent)
I find that hard to believe.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: Good2Golf on January 26, 2006, 05:48:47
Well, let me add more detail then...

1) Up until recently, we have had a capability closer to the FBI HRT Special Operation Aviation Unit...both using the CH135 and the CH146...in fact...the CH146 is close to being 100% similar aircraft type used by the FBI, let alone the very similar Dom CT role supported,

2) when I said MH-60-ish (note the -ish), my intention was to indicate where our SOA capability roughly sat.  The MH-60 Pavehawk is considered a mission-specific variant of the US Army UTTH (utility tactical transport helicopter) which, interestingly, happens to be exactly what the CH146 Griffon is to the CF, the CFUTTH.  I neither said explicitly nor implied that the CH135 or the CH146 had the "same capability" as the MH-60, and

3) By "flown along side", I meant that I have trained with the unit and have a good understanding of its operators, capabilities and procedures -- understanding where similarities exist, how we can best ensure interoperability or coordination of operations, or at the very least, learn from their experiences to apply to our own operations.  Nowhere did I say that we either: a) "trained" the 160th SOAR(A) [as in them learning from us], or b) "have the same capabilities" as the entire 160th SOAR(A), both of which you most recent post seems to imply I said.

Any other stuff that I should pick out of the pepper?   ???

Regards,
Duey

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: SF2 on January 26, 2006, 09:35:38
This issue has come up numerous times among many - resentfulness is bound to rear its ugly head knowing that some members had to do more to get the tan beret than others.
But think about what you're upset about.  Are you mad because someone else is going to be wearing a tan beret, and people will think that he went through all of this training to earn it, but in fact he didn't?  If that's the case, well, its too bad that you're wasting your energy thinking about what complete strangers thinks of OTHER complete strangers.  You and your peers know what you did to earn the beret, and that's all that should matter.  Who cares what Joe Blow down at 427 did to earn his?  Everyone who works for CANSOFCOM has a contribution to make towards the mission - and everyone will be recognized for it in the form of the tan beret.  If your pride is hurt because of someone elses' apparent lack of contribution, then you have bigger problems.

On a different subject - as far as Cdn. Aviation vs 160th - Duey summed it up pretty well.  I didn't say the Griffon could pull the same numbers as a 60, 147, or whatever.  All I'm saying is that there has been a Special Operations Aviation capability since the early 90's with 450 Sqn supporting the RCMP SERT, which later evolved to JTF2 support.  While the focus was more on domestic counter terrorism, there is a small out of area capability, and its about to get a lot bigger with the standing up of 427 Special Operations Aviation Squadron on Feb 1.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Recce41 on January 26, 2006, 09:41:53
This issue has come up numerous times among many - resentfulness is bound to rear its ugly head knowing that some members had to do more to get the tan beret than others.
But think about what you're upset about.  Are you mad because someone else is going to be wearing a tan beret, and people will think that he went through all of this training to earn it, but in fact he didn't?  If that's the case, well, its too bad that you're wasting your energy thinking about what complete strangers thinks of OTHER complete strangers.  You and your peers know what you did to earn the beret, and that's all that should matter.  Who cares what Joe Blow down at 427 did to earn his?  Everyone who works for CANSOFCOM has a contribution to make towards the mission - and everyone will be recognized for it in the form of the tan beret.  If your pride is hurt because of someone elses' apparent lack of contribution, then you have bigger problems.

On a different subject - as far as Cdn. Aviation vs 160th - Duey summed it up pretty well.  I didn't say the Griffon could pull the same numbers as a 60, 147, or whatever.  All I'm saying is that there has been a Special Operations Aviation capability since the early 90's with 450 Sqn supporting the RCMP SERT, which later evolved to JTF2 support.  While the focus was more on domestic counter terrorism, there is a small out of area capability, and its about to get a lot bigger with the standing up of 427 Special Operations Aviation Squadron on Feb 1.



TOO BAD? This unit may get spec pay. And some fat lazy will get the same pay. I think all have to do the testing. The American and Brit pilots have to do the same test as the ground fellas if they fly DELTA/SAS. WHY CAN'T OURS.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: SF2 on January 26, 2006, 09:48:55
Recce, I'll be the first to agree with you about the PT thing - I'm a huge advocate of that.  But someone upstairs decided it wasn't necessary - so don't blame the flyers and hold resentment towards them on that sole basis.

The spec pay issue was raised at BGen Barr's brief, but has not yet been considered, so I would drop that arguement.  As far as being fat and lazy, I would take that up with the individual.  Considering the company they'll be working with, I would consider it to be a matter of professionalism to maintain a level of physical fitness, even if they don't NEED to meet the same standard.  If one doesn't, that's their personal, unfortunate issue.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: little jim on January 26, 2006, 09:49:46
No units under CANSOFCOM have officially stood up yet, so no one will have the tan beret yet.

427 will get their's Thursday.

I might be inclined to argue that the Joint NBC Company and the guys at the hill have already stood up.

EVERYONE needs to calm down with respect to the beret colour - everyone in the comd will wear one.  So before you get all wrapped up in the triva lets just be thankful that there is now an organization where people can aspire to go even if they lack the necessary skill sets for the hill.

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: George Wallace on January 26, 2006, 10:04:34

TOO BAD? This unit may get spec pay. And some fat lazy will get the same pay. I think all have to do the testing. The American and Brit pilots have to do the same test as the ground fellas if they fly DELTA/SAS. WHY CAN'T OURS.
What about those who are already collecting Spec Pay in other Trades and other Organizations?  Fact of Life.  You are getting wound  up over a triviality.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Recce41 on January 26, 2006, 10:19:59
What about those who are already collecting Spec Pay in other Trades and other Organizations?  Fact of Life.  You are getting wound  up over a triviality.
George
 The pay maybe spec 2. Yes others get it, but for SARs,JTF. They've earned it. I have to pass a PT test, 10 months on course, and then keep the standard. If your not up to snuff, why have the test. It will just fill with crap.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: MCG on January 26, 2006, 13:21:01
There is also going to be a CANSOF capbadge coming down the pipe soon.
Why?

I'd like to put my 2 cents in regarding the new Canadian Special Operations Regiment and the Conservatives proposed Airborne Battalion.  Some are questioning whether there is need for the two units in the Canadian Forces, in my opinion there is.  ... 

Concern has been voiced that a small military like Canada's will not be able to provide enough high quality volunteers for two such units and that they will cannibalize the rest of the CF of their best people.  While the Liberals have recently made some increases in military spending, this potential problem can be solved by investing much more in the defence budget, particularly in the area of recruiting.  ...   During WW2 it fielded the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion and contributed greatly to the US/Canadian Special Service Force.  
Recruiting into the CF will do very little if the authorized strenght of the CF is not large enough to sustain JTF 2, CSOR, and CAR.  Looking to WW II as an example is a distortion.  Today, the CF is significantly smaller than the Canadian military of WW II.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: M Feetham on January 26, 2006, 15:14:35
I've read quite a few posts regarding the SOG. There seem to be a lot of good points, and I am interested in everything being said. I am planning on applying for one of the ATR billets in the fall and am prepping now. What I am curious about is what kind of reaction are non combat arms applicants going to get. I'm not talking the office jobs. I mean actual out there doing the job. Maybe not a front line troop, cause not everyone is able to do the job, but something. If I can get Cat 1 super if not, I'll wait and see what happens. Any thoughts or advice from anyone?
Thanks :cheers
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: Steve on January 26, 2006, 15:30:23
A few people told me the deadline is tomorrow .. then no more applications? Too bad .. I wanted to apply but my running isn't up to par.

If this is the case, there should be more positions open in the future right?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rider Pride on January 26, 2006, 18:40:06
Due the nature of where and with whom I work, I get to see allot of info about the CSOR and about the CANSOF command.

There doesn't seem to be allot of info disseminated out there to everyone. I am getting the feeling allot of pers in the chain of command do not know or do not wish to acknowledge the info out there and are not passing it down their chains.

The big bee in my bonnet is that we are not necessarily sending the best people to the new unit, just the best that are avail...or the ones the CO would let leave (hmm sounds a little like a unit in Petawawa in the early 90's). There are outstanding medics who work for/with me who are unable to have their applications processed because we are manning TF in Aug and the unit is unable to backfill any pers lost to CSOR.

One of the misconceptions is that anyone can apply for any job, sort of like anyone in the CF applying to become a JTF2 Assaulter...from what I understand this is not correct. The direct action companies (the rifle companies of CSOR) have x number of posns for x trades and ranks, and also looking for pers with specific qualifications (ie any Cbt Arms WO Master Gunner, or Any trade WO/Sgt to fill Ops NCO). I will speak to med pers cause thats what I know intimately. This is all the medics they want for now until Sept:
1 PA MWO/WO
1 Sgt
3 Mcpl/Cpl
thats all thats it. If a med tech cpl applies for a posn, he is applying for those 3, and no others. They are not a rifleman, nor an engineer in the direct action company. And they are Cat 1 not support. They do the MOC they are trained to do. And hence the compition. If you are cbt arms, you better do real well on the pt test.

The other bee in my bonnet is the talk of the tan berets. Particularly for those who are just getting them because they are plugs in the right hole. Must be nice to get something so prestigious without earning it. If all it takes to be in this command is to be posted to the right place....
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: medicineman on January 26, 2006, 20:45:00
But you're not bitter or twisted are you Ash ;D??!!

MM
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rider Pride on January 26, 2006, 21:03:09
But you're not bitter or twisted are you Ash ;D??!!

Only that 2 Fd Amb will not process my application due to the up coming TF, which I might add, I am only an alternate for.   :crybaby:

But hey, its not all bad...I got in 3 jumps today.

edit: as of end of play today 27 Jan, no change.....oh well.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: medicineman on January 26, 2006, 21:07:56
See - there is a bright side to everything.  I'm still trying to find the one that came from the career mangler's visit last week.  It was decidedly a waste of my time and taxpayer's money.

MM
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rider Pride on January 26, 2006, 21:12:48
See - there is a bright side to everything.  I'm still trying to find the one that came from the career mangler's visit last week.  It was decidedly a waste of my time and taxpayer's money.

MM
Career manager... :rage:
BTW there is a immediate posting available to Petawawa for a physically fit Sgt.

I just skimmed through the last few pages. So, non-031s willl not have to do any courses to earn the tan beret?

So, to get into the unit, you'd first have to do an Indoc type thing(2 days of testing) if you pass that you can get in. An you get to wear the tan beret. Do the troops that do the CSOR course get any special insignia to show that they've completed the course?

Right now its only a pt test for those into the CSOR.
There will be some specialized training testing program intiated in Sept. The troops coming in as of Apr, CSOR HQ, Admin Coy and NEO Coy, are in place before the "course" starts, but may do it.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: medicineman on January 26, 2006, 21:24:27
I can't see me jumping - one of my ankles is, shall we say, euchered.  Thanks for the thought though.

MM
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Popurhedoff on January 26, 2006, 21:52:05
Well I coudl concede the hat to the pliots and flight crew too -- but not the ground crew.  The Pilot and crew will be part of the mission team -- undertakign SOF missions with a correspondingly greater threat and personal danger level -- I fail to see how a clerk or tech's job changes with this assignment

Now who do you suppose goes into the field to recover and maintain the tactical aviation assets in the theaters of operations? Who's job is it to maintain, operate, recover, reapair in a hostile environment?   We are all a part of a team with specific job descriptions... A team is the sum of it parts...  I know I can rebuild helo's, I can operate in the field, operate in a hostile environment, and I can even pick up a rifle and do my part there... I have my job... its not like I'm asking you to rebuild the helos yourself... I (we) are the ones responsible for those (10000+)flinging, twirling parts to work properly to safely allow others to carry out their missions/tasks...  I am proud of my job.

George
 The pay maybe spec 2. Yes others get it, but for SARs,JTF. They've earned it. I have to pass a PT test, 10 months on course, and then keep the standard. If your not up to snuff, why have the test. It will just fill with crap.

Most of us do agree with you as well Recce41, but it seems that you and others are under the impression that Zoomies are all fat and lazy...  I would have to disagree with you on that... not all. The demographics of Airforce technicians are that approx 75% of the technical tradesman/women have over 20 years of service and at least 40+ years old... these are highly specialized trained technicians, training that can take up to 10 years to fully qualify...there are very few younger techs around...that being said... you have to use who you have, what ya got...that is the state we are in...

that being said, we all still have to pass the same PT tests as the rest...  I have 27 years in, and I run 3 days a week with my rucksack... I do this year round, I make no excuses...and have attained almost 1000kms for the year with my ruck... out of the 3000+ personnel who ran the Brigade Terry Fox run... only two(2),I say again only two (2) ran with rucksacks... and they were AirForce...myself and another over 40 zoomie.  That followed by the Brigade Tug-O-war match... we had 7 guys over 40 years of age, not a single practice... and we lasted 19 seconds longer that the RCD's against the Brigade Champions,  427 Sqn finished 2nd in the Womens Terry Fox run, 427 THS Ironman team finished very high with out team IIRC finishing  with no one out of the top 80.  2nd place in the seniors devision, top Female... not bad at all for a bunch of Old Zoomies.

We do not begrudge doing our part, or staying in shape...albeit "Pear" is a shape.  Sometimes  people do not have a complete picture and tend to make assumptions. Please keep in mind that we are all on the same team, we all have our specific jobs to do. 

P.S.  If any wish to participate,  I usually start my ruck run @0600 at the gate of our unit. (Mon, Wed, & Fri)... Yes I do my PT on my own time... I am too busy working to do it on work time.

Cheers
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: Cataract Kid on January 26, 2006, 22:27:46
EDIT: I did not want to start an agument when I first raised these questions, and this reply is in no way a "flame" or intended to start a pissing contest.

Well, let me add more detail then...

1) Up until recently, we have had a capability closer to the FBI HRT Special Operation Aviation Unit...both using the CH135 and the CH146...in fact...the CH146 is close to being 100% similar aircraft type used by the FBI, let alone the very similar Dom CT role supported,


Which brings me to why I had asked my first question, which was "I wasn't aware that we had a Canadian equivalent to the, AH/MH-6 Little Bird,  MH-60 Pave Hawk, and  MH-47E Chinook. When did this come about?". As I had thought that you had picked up the torch from "short final" (or spidy as it now seems the persons user name is), I was under the impression that you were in fact in agreement with that persons post. So then, the capability stands more towards the FBI HRT then? That is, (IMO) considerably less than the 160th.

2) when I said MH-60-ish (note the -ish), my intention was to indicate where our SOA capability roughly sat.  The MH-60 Pavehawk is considered a mission-specific variant of the US Army UTTH (utility tactical transport helicopter) which, interestingly, happens to be exactly what the CH146 Griffon is to the CF, the CFUTTH.  I neither said explicitly nor implied that the CH135 or the CH146 had the "same capability" as the MH-60, and


Roger, so I will take the first part of Resp #2 as being that there really isn't much of a SOA capability within the military at the present time but, it is starting to come to the forefront, and people are starting to give it the attention it deserves?
As for the bold-ed part, I was again under the impression that since you had taken the question meant for shor...or whoever, that you were in agreement that we had had that capability since the early 90's. My mistake.

3) By "flown along side", I meant that I have trained with the unit and have a good understanding of its operators, capabilities and procedures -- understanding where similarities exist, how we can best ensure interoperability or coordination of operations, or at the very least, learn from their experiences to apply to our own operations.  Nowhere did I say that we either: a) "trained" the 160th SOAR(A) [as in them learning from us], or b) "have the same capabilities" as the entire 160th SOAR(A), both of which you most recent post seems to imply I said.


a) I wasn't aware that I had implied that you "had" trained them, my apologies if you thought that I had suggested it.
b) Ive answered this one in the other two above replies.

Any other stuff that I should pick out of the pepper?

Not at all sir, thank you for the stimulating dialogue, I've gained a wealth of knowledge.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: Good2Golf on January 27, 2006, 00:56:41
Blakey, I just picked up on one thing you mentioned about response #2 that I was not looking at perhaps the same way you were. 

Yes, it would be most correct to say we've had a Teir 1 (which is what the FBI HRT is as well) capability focused primarily on Dom CT, with only a marginal focus on other activities.  That will no doubt change in the future as 427 SOAS provides support to all CANSOFCOM elements -- especially looking forward to seeing other areas further developed.  This will likely be especially true supporting the CSOR, where we did not support such a capability before (unless you include guys at 427 with Hueys and me and others at 450 and Chinooks supporting the SSF...swallowed a few Zodiacs into the back of 'hooks in my earlier days).

Cheers,
Duey
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Hatchet Man on January 27, 2006, 03:12:03
How do other SF units work around the whole designation thing?  Do the clerks that work for the SAS or JTF have a special decoder ring?  I'd have to lean more towards Kev's line of thinking.

I just finished Dick Couch's "The Finishing School: Earning the Navy SEAL Trident", and he mentioned that every SEAL Team has non-SEALs (ie, clerks, sup techs) posted to them.  He didn't detail what if any selection requirements they go through (the book was about becoming SEALs not a support person in a SEAL team).  But the easiest way to tell the operators from the support staff, All the operators are SEALs and have the Trident.  Non-operators have no trident. 

If it is such an issue to people (how do we tell apart the operators and the techies), why don't we just go back to wearing qualification badges on our combats?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: 2023 on January 27, 2006, 14:08:22
I have been following this thread and have been reading what people have been thinking/saying. It's all good but I have to question some of the people who are on here beaking off................if you want to be part of it, go for it. Don't begin piss moaning about who should be able to wear what, etc............if you are worried about that, you probably won't pass the selection phase anyways.

Chimo!!!!
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: MikeL on January 27, 2006, 14:13:17

If it is such an issue to people (how do we tell apart the operators and the techies), why don't we just go back to wearing qualification badges on our combats?


Or just look at the persons capbadge.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: Cool Breeze on January 27, 2006, 14:41:32
Yes, it would be most correct to say we've had a Teir 1 (which is what the FBI HRT is as well) capability focused primarily on Dom CT, with only a marginal focus on other activities.  That will no doubt change in the future as 427 SOAS provides support to all CANSOFCOM elements -- especially looking forward to seeing other areas further developed.  This will likely be especially true supporting the CSOR, where we did not support such a capability before (unless you include guys at 427 with Hueys and me and others at 450 and Chinooks supporting the SSF...swallowed a few Zodiacs into the back of 'hooks in my earlier days).

Cheers,
Duey

Are you saying that a Tier 1 unit is just a hostage rescue outfit that isn't really tasked with green ops? I was under the impression that a Tier 1 unit was capable of pretty much all special forces missions but also had a CT mandate e.g. the 22nd SAS Regiment is a special forces unit that is tasked with CT and hostage rescue but is also capable of many many other operations in the green area (which it is mainly tasked with). If what I think you're saying is true does this make any city police SWAT team a tier 1 unit? Thanks.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Recce41 on January 27, 2006, 15:18:37
Tier 1 is national, exclusive. ie JTF.
Tier 2 is national -.
JTF is not just Blk, they are green. But now will be more blk (22 SAS, 1 SAS, Delta) than green (3, 5 SAS, Rangers, GBs) The SEALs are also a mixed bag .
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: Good2Golf on January 27, 2006, 15:40:31
Kev T,

HR is considered a Teir 1 capability (hence why FBI HRT SOAU is considered a Dom Teir 1 unit), 427 Sqn, and 450 Sqn before it, conducted only a portion of the big picture Teir 1 gamut (i.e. Dom HR and CT only), but it would still be correct to say that Teir 1 capability was being provided...first to RCMP SERT, then JTF 2. 

I suppose depending on whose definition you use, SWAT does HR work, but being lower than national level, my gut feel/opinion is not to call them Teir 1 at all.  I would say a "Teir 1" HR capability is nationally generated and executed, FBI HRT Domestically and DevGrp/SOAD(D)/etc... internationally...

Cheers,
Duey
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Cool Breeze on January 27, 2006, 17:48:17
Thanks for the answers - kinda clears things up a bit. Seems like there are in fact a few different types of definitions out there. I would agree with you though that a police SWAT team is not close to being a Tier 1 unit at all. But where does that leave green ops as there are a lot of specialized missions on the green side - does this make all green ops strictly tier 2, 3...? Thanks again.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: KevinB on January 27, 2006, 19:04:26
Tier 1 being NATIONAL LEVEL OF INTEREST CT/HR

 USSF (green beenie groups) does HR but for local area. 
CAG/Delta/SFOD-D is the primary US Tier 1 unit with the SEAL DEVGRP (former ST6) having similar but smaller capability.

The Tiering system gets people wound up in knots especially since "Tier II" (Tier 1 support by some definition) is done by the USNR Spec War Dets - while the active Teams fall into someones Tier III def with USSF.... ::)


FWIW 
 Non 11B Pers posted into the RR's DO NOT wear the Black Beret - but have Airborne tab (even if non jumpers) under unit scroll (IIRC it is under)
- non 18"x" pers posted to USSF groups units wear airborne tab on their uniform above the unit patch -- but not the Beret nor the cap cloth (cap badge)  they now wear the gay US Army black beret (which caused the Rangers to go tan BTW) with its ubiquious blue and white starred cap cloth.

CAG - rarely uniformed - irrelevant issue according to a couple buddies who are shooters there.


Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Fo
Post by: Michael O'Leary on January 27, 2006, 21:51:31
NOTE that there is now a seprate thread for discussion of tan berets and other CSOR fashion issues.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,39085.0.html
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rider Pride on February 08, 2006, 18:59:12
Well the CAT 1 standard is taking its toll...or is it the PSP staff's standards?

The pass rate for the first couple weeks was at 57%. Most people are failing pushups (PSP standards) or swim test (who knew cbt boots and rifle could be so heavy).

So far nobody has had any problem with the BFT, except the occasional frostbite.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: aesop081 on February 08, 2006, 19:00:32
Well the CAT 1 standard is taking its toll...or is it the PSP staff's standards?

The pass rate for the first couple weeks was at 57%. Most people are failing pushups (PSP standards) or swim test (who knew cbt boots and rifle could be so heavy).

So far nobody has had any problem with the BFT, except the occasional frostbite.

I was expecting alot worse than that to tell you the truth
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Hatchet Man on February 08, 2006, 22:38:18
Well the CAT 1 standard is taking its toll...or is it the PSP staff's standards?

The pass rate for the first couple weeks was at 57%. Most people are failing pushups (PSP standards) or swim test (who knew cbt boots and rifle could be so heavy).

So far nobody has had any problem with the BFT, except the occasional frostbite.

Is PSP still making people do push-ups, with the elbows held close in to the sides?  Cause I saw a noticed posted outside the PSP office in the Denison building saying that they would no longer be using that method anymore.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: MikeL on February 08, 2006, 22:52:45
Hatchet man, when I did my last PT test, PSP Staff in Edmonton didn't say anything about having arms held close to the side. Just had to have my hands under my shoulders an fully extend my arm going up, an have my chest go a few inches off the ground when going down.





KevinB, I've seen a cook in the 75th Ranger Regiment wear the scroll an black beret (when they had it), but he also had his Ranger tab. You sure about the non 11B/C's having a Airborne tab under the scroll? Not doubting you, just something I've never seen. I've seen Medics an Commo guys in the Regiment an they wore just the scroll an Ranger tab(if they had it) aswell as the Black Beret(an now Tan).

I thought support troops in the SFG's wore Maroon berets?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Journeyman on February 09, 2006, 00:47:59
Is PSP still making people do push-ups, with the elbows held close in to the sides?  Cause I saw a noticed posted outside the PSP office in the Denison building saying that they would no longer be using that method anymore.

Did the notice say why? All that does is isolate the triceps somewhat; nothing too horrible about that
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Hatchet Man on February 09, 2006, 01:53:58
Did the notice say why? All that does is isolate the triceps somewhat; nothing too horrible about that

It did, but I don't remember the exact wording, and I am not going to speculate. I saw the notice when I was in Denison for a DRU ex in December.  The only thing that stuck in my mind was they would no longer make you do push-ups with your elbows into the sides.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rider Pride on February 09, 2006, 22:54:43
went down to watch as my medics are covering the safety side of the pt test.

Standard is, hands with finger facing towards head.
Hand placed with fingers under shoulders (may be all or just the thumb).
Hands can not move.
Feet together, body flat.
when down upper arm must be parallel to the floor .
Must go all the way up until arms are straight.
Once start, you can not stop.

Most guys who failed did over 50, but only had mid 30's count.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: The Gues-|- on February 09, 2006, 23:00:10

Most guys who failed did over 50, but only had mid 30's count.

mid 30's count? what?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Hatchet Man on February 09, 2006, 23:02:19
went down to watch as my medics are covering the safety side of the pt test.

Standard is, hands with finger facing towards head.
Hand placed with fingers under shoulders (may be all or just the thumb).
Hands can not move.
Feet together, body flat.
when down upper arm must be parallel to the floor .
Must go all the way up until arms are straight.
Once start, you can not stop.

Most guys who failed did over 50, but only had mid 30's count.

Sounds like what was written, were they made to keep thier elbows close in to their sides?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Recce41 on February 10, 2006, 07:55:19
Ye
 Here in Gage the pool was closed. I like the close push ups, I do a lot of dips. The pullups are the BS here, I'm a long skinnie guy. So wide ones are my preferance. As for the pool, the weapon out of the water is BS. my test is in May,field DS until then so my PT will drop.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Sapper477 on February 10, 2006, 12:08:50
Is there any info on the pt test.  I've seen the pam circulating through the unit on CSOR but it says pt test is being developed.  I was just wondering as to what it consists of if it is finished.  I am assuming that it is working along the lines of the Coopers test (min 75 aggregate as per JTF II standards) but again, just an assumption.  It says to contact local PSP staff but unfortunately our pt staff here are never home and do not return calls  >:(  Any info would be great.  Chimo!
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Hatchet Man on February 10, 2006, 12:48:08
Is there any info on the pt test.  I've seen the pam circulating through the unit on CSOR but it says pt test is being developed.  I was just wondering as to what it consists of if it is finished.  I am assuming that it is working along the lines of the Coopers test (min 75 aggregate as per JTF II standards) but again, just an assumption.  It says to contact local PSP staff but unfortunately our pt staff here are never home and do not return calls  >:(  Any info would be great.  Chimo!

Go back a few pages and the you fill see what the pt test consists of.  Hint look for the post that is in all caps.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rider Pride on February 18, 2006, 18:26:27
Ref the PT test, if you fail one portion, ie pushups, you must redo the entire test. Both days.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: M Feetham on February 22, 2006, 21:38:39
Hey all,
I don't know if any one is still watching this thread or not, but I am going to write this anyway. I put my application in two weeks ago and am still waiting for word from my COC. I did a practice test with PSP staff a couple of days before I applied. All went well there was no problem with the pushups. Did 45. The big thing with that is to check with the guy who is monitoring you and make sure you both agree on what a good pushup is. I know that some of them can be really stupid about the pushups and the situps. Sometimes they fail the recruits on technicalities. Calling the same number three or four times. Makes you want to smack it right between the eyes. Also there is a course for succesfull applicants that starts in April. I beleive it is four months and it is to train personnel in the job that the unit will be doing and not a grind the guys and see who makes it out the end kind of course. Some of that information is on the Canforgen, some of it I got from guys who have applied and done their tests. Some of them have buddies who are already posted to the unit and are on their way now. If any one else has any information please send it on.
Thanks
Marc. :cdn:
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: 2023 on February 23, 2006, 08:07:53
Word on the street is that it doesn't matter if you pass the PT test or not right now. If you pass the Pysch eval, they will accept you and get you into shape. First 14 days of the course will be testing, shooting, etc.
Ash,

Rumour out here is that only 50 of 150 pers from 3RCR passed the PT test............any truth to that? Hard to believe!
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: little jim on February 23, 2006, 09:26:24
Word on the street is that it doesn't matter if you pass the PT test or not right now. If you pass the Pysch eval, they will accept you and get you into shape. First 14 days of the course will be testing, shooting, etc.
Ash,

Rumour out here is that only 50 of 150 pers from 3RCR passed the PT test............any truth to that? Hard to believe!

Nobody should be applying thinking that it’s not essential to pass the PT test.

The chain of comd monitors the selection process.  The CO / RSM do have the final say - this is in part based upon recommendations from the Somalia Enquiry.

Chapter 20 - PERSONNEL SELECTION AND SCREENING

20.6   The Chief of the Defence Staff ensure that, for any future composite combat arms unit:

a.   formalized criteria for selection to the unit are established;

b.   the Commanding Officer have maximum freedom in selecting personnel for that unit; and

c.   the Commanding Officer have maximum freedom to employ personnel as the Commanding Officer deems appropriate.

It is key to note that the new unit is not the Airborne Regiment.  Think about it - US Army has the Rangers and various Airborne units.  Australia has both 3 RAR and 4 RAR Cdo.  The British Army has both the Parachute Regiment and the SSR....If you what to what if this to death think that if the CAR still existed it would have be culled to provide the initial intake for the Cdn Spec Ops Regt (Look at what happened to 1 Para)

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Journeyman on February 23, 2006, 09:48:17
Rumour out here is that only 50 of 150 pers from 3RCR passed the PT test............any truth to that? Hard to believe!

From my "rumour net," apparently when the reality of the initial selection and training hit quite a few backed out. Most thought it was simply changing berets until the briefing at the Base Theatre.... :o
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: George Wallace on February 23, 2006, 09:57:04
Then again, for some it was.   ::)
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: 2023 on February 23, 2006, 10:06:36
From my "rumour net," apparently when the reality of the initial selection and training hit quite a few backed out. Most thought it was simply changing berets until the briefing at the Base Theatre.... :o

That is what is happening out here in Gagetown too
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: recceguy on February 23, 2006, 10:24:14
Rumour out here is that only 50 of 150 pers from 3RCR passed the PT test............any truth to that? Hard to believe!

What I find hard to believe, is that 150 guys wanted to bail from 3RCR. My, my.....wonder why? ::)
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: signalsguy on February 23, 2006, 10:30:55
Rumour has it that everyone in CANSOFCOM will do the Cooper's Test twice annually, min score of 75 and an exemption on EXPRES. Whether that will happen or not remains to be seen, I don't know how many of the staff at the HQ would get 75...

I've witnessed people here in Ottawa showing up for the CSOR applicant testing that maybe should have been stopped by their c of c... Guys that did the 20 MSR and only hit 6.5... Maybe its a 'Walter Mitty' thing, I'm not sure. If I didn't think I would EXCEED the standards, I wouldn't try out...
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: George Wallace on February 23, 2006, 10:53:11
Wow!  I heard that this Rumour Mill is being built in the East-end of Ottawa, off of Innes Road, in Orleans.  Close to the new Walmart.  It will also generate power for half of Eastern Ontario.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on February 23, 2006, 11:14:10
Wow!  I heard that this Rumour Mill is being built in the East-end of Ottawa, off of Innes Road, in Orleans.  Close to the new Walmart.  It will also generate power for half of Eastern Ontario.

Are there any Class B openings at this new Rumour Mill? ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Journeyman on February 23, 2006, 12:08:16
Wow!  I heard that this Rumour Mill is being built in the East-end of Ottawa, off of Innes Road, in Orleans.  Close to the new Walmart.  It will also generate power for half of Eastern Ontario.

Now how does this even remotely contribute to the CSOR discussion?

The postings indicated the source of the material (yes, several rumours), led to discussion and confirmation that the same activity is occuring on other bases, in addition to discussing potential fitness aspects that have not yet been confirmed. All the comment contributed was setting up a follow-on flippant remark.

Mods! Oh....he is a Mod. Nevermind.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: George Wallace on February 23, 2006, 12:11:06
Journeyman....if you really want to know.....It is a 'comment' on a whole page of "Rumours". 


(In another forum though, I'd like to hear the story of the "Attack of the Squirrel"   ;D)
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rider Pride on February 23, 2006, 17:09:27
Word on the street is that it doesn't matter if you pass the PT test or not right now. If you pass the Pysch eval, they will accept you and get you into shape. First 14 days of the course will be testing, shooting, etc.
Ash,

Rumour out here is that only 50 of 150 pers from 3RCR passed the PT test............any truth to that? Hard to believe!

Wrong on both counts.

You must meet all entrance standards prior to the "course" date, which I believe is somewhere after mid Apr.

And you'd be more accurate if you said 50 of 150 failed one portion or more of the pt test. I am not sure of numbers, but PSP standards of pushups is a point of contention. Its not the numbers you can do but doing it within thier "technique".

There is much concern about troops (good troops, in shape, including key Sr NCOs and Officers) failing nothing but the swim test. They are discussing putting in 2-4 weeks of swim training to ensure that all applicants pass. As opposed to the express test and BFT components, which test just fitness, the swim test is considered a safety standard, and not usually something we test in regards to fitness. What I take from that is that candidates will get the assistance they need to meet the standard.

If you have heard if you fail one portion, you only need to retest that portion. As far as I understand, that is correct and the case for only this selection period due to the compressed time frames and busy schedule of all the troops in supporting Roto 03-06 TSMT etc. Basically they are running out of time to get everyone who needs to be tested the first time complete. In the future, applicants will have to pass everything (possibly less the swim, jury is still out) on two successive days. But like JTF2 testing, your application will have a deadline for selection which you as an applicant can allow retest time in for.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: little jim on February 23, 2006, 17:19:39
Interesting point on the swim test.  When we first looked at the swim test out here we tried a number of different ways to do it (side stroke worked best).  We actually thought that it was just a water phobia test and that the test for CAT 1 should look more like the entrance requirements for US Ranger training which is:

Combat Water Survival Test:

o Part 1: Wearing BDUs (combat uniform), boots, and load carrying equipment
(LCE, rifle, pistol belt, suspenders, two ammo pouches, and 2 full canteens) jump
in the water and swim 15 metres.

o Part 2: Walk blindfolded off a 3 metre diving board with rifle and load carrying
equipment. After entering water, remove blindfold and swim to side of pool.

o Part 3: Enter water, submerge, discard rifle, remove load carrying equipment
and swim to side of pool.

It is a busy morning to do Part 1 (day 1) so on reflection a persons comfort level in the water has a lot to do with it.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: QV on February 25, 2006, 22:34:02
From reading the message I understood that any trade could apply for a Cat 1 position, however they also specifically needed a number of specific trades and ranks for the initial start up of the unit.  Can anyone confirm this info for me?  I can't find anything out at my base....

Specifically what I am asking is - can a member in a non-cbt arms trade apply for a Cat 1 position in one of the Direct Action Companies? 
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Jungle on February 25, 2006, 23:05:11
Specifically what I am asking is - can a member in a non-cbt arms trade apply for a Cat 1 position in one of the Direct Action Companies? 
Yes
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: M Feetham on February 26, 2006, 20:03:25
Hey QV,
 I am NAVY, just about as not combat arms as you can get. I have applied although I am still waiting for my Chain of command to get back to me, I just had my medical on Friday past. The only problem I seem to be having is that I put in the application two weeks ago and they just came back to me on Thursday to tell me to do all my medical stuff on my own. I did it thanks to a couple of contacts at the hospital. There seems to be a problem with units/regiments letting people go for this new unit. Mostly it is scuttlebutt, however I wonder how much is true. Sorry if this post seemed to wander all over the place. Sometimes you shouldn't drink and type. Anyway if you apply I hope you make it. Good luck.
Ciao, Marc.  :cdn:
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: QV on February 28, 2006, 07:16:23
Sweet !!!!!!  Thanx Jungle.

Good luck Marc!!

I am trying out for something else right now, but I may put in for this down the road.  (after they get all the initial bugs worked out) 
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: geo on February 28, 2006, 19:48:28
There seems to be a problem with units/regiments letting people go for this new unit. Mostly it is scuttlebutt, however I wonder how much is true.
:cdn:
Marc
When a unit has a specific task to accomplish and members of same said unit are interested in trying out for this "special ops" thing.... what do you think you'd do if you were the CO......

Of course the unit leadership wants to slow down the bleeding and hang onto it's key people.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rider Pride on February 28, 2006, 19:52:11
When a unit has a specific task to accomplish and members of same said unit are interested

Of course the unit leadership wants to slow down the bleeding and hang onto it's key people.

Particularly when those troops are usually your most fit and capable Ptes - Sgts interested in leaving....things that make a CO's hair turn greyer then it may already be.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: geo on February 28, 2006, 20:07:03
( after having pulled em out... don't think that would be an issue)
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: M Feetham on March 01, 2006, 15:50:19
Gentlemen, I agree 100%. No CO anywhere is going to willingly let his personnel go. I was just told that with less than a year at the recruit school, there was very little chance of beign let go now. However, after the one year mark, I stand a good chance of being allowed. So right now my application is in and I wait.
 I wonder what will happen if the regiment thinks that it is not getting the influx of people that they think they need. Interesting to see what happens in the future. Does anyone have any other information about screening or stories to pass on about making it thru. A buddy of mine at the school just did his BPSO interview, he said there was like 400 questions covering just about any topic you can think of. He said his interview was almost three hours all told.
Thanks for listening
Marc. :cdn:
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: 2023 on March 01, 2006, 19:12:51
Commanding Officers are only allowed to defer your application one time. If they don't let you apply one year, try again the next.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rider Pride on March 01, 2006, 23:42:04
Does anyone have any other information about screening or stories to pass on about making it thru. A buddy of mine at the school just did his BPSO interview, he said there was like 400 questions covering just about any topic you can think of. He said his interview was almost three hours all told.

Nobody I know about has been officially told yet they have made it thru the screening for the CAT 1 posns. There are all sorts of prepositioned people posted in. Remember if you are applying right now, it is unlikely you will make it in for 1 Apr. The first DA coy is primarily pers from 3 RCR, with add ons from the other 2 inf regts. Looks like Sept is when most others will be brought in.

As for the BPSO interviews. Some guys are redoing the CFAT, some are doing 3 hr psych testing. The BPSO interviews are taking 2-3 hrs each.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: M Feetham on March 03, 2006, 17:37:13
Cool,
Thanks for the info. Have a good weekend.
Ciao.
Marc :cdn:
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: EX_RCAC_011 on March 03, 2006, 17:47:11
Can I apply through the year?Im sorta busy right now and will be for a ehile but wish to join up in a few months.I can meet the physical requirements but just wondering about deadlines.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: painswessex on March 13, 2006, 09:17:29
you can apply at any time but the first course starts april 18th. the next course will be next year some time
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: BulletMagnet on March 14, 2006, 12:24:35
OK so I'm not sure if this has been posted here yet and if it has not then it should be.

Having just yesterday availed myself of the a practice for the swim portion of the Special Operations Regiment PT test
I highly reccomend that any and persons thinking of attempting selection to try and arrange through PSP a timing for people to come and practice the swim, having talked to the PSP staff at one point they were only getting a 30% pass rate on it. For those of you that think

"hey I can do the regular combat swim test and I do alright, I'll be fine"

 I tell you think hard on that attitude, I am a very strong swimmer, I used to life guard and competitive swim and swimming with a rifle and boots on was challenging, had I not a very good base to work from I would have really struggled, as it was it took me a good 10-15 mins to really figure out how to complete the swim, and even then when I did I was a bit bagged when I finished it.

For you really fit, good swimmers I suggest that you also avail yourself of a practice session if your base is having one, but do a work out first before you enter the pool, being tired will help you get a feel for how the swim portion will go during your actual test. This was advice given to me by PSP staff for any future times I head to a session, I also tried maxing out on push ups and sit ups before attempting the swim a second time and I noticed a real difference from when I did the swim fresh.

Thats all the advice I can really give, If your base is not having a practice swim session I suggest you ask them why not and show them how many people are intrested, because as it stand right now the swim portion is the one part that you cannot train for.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Recce41 on March 16, 2006, 20:03:13
Can I apply through the year?Im sorta busy right now and will be for a ehile but wish to join up in a few months.I can meet the physical requirements but just wondering about deadlines.
Come and see me at J7. I have all the info. Pain, the next course I was told is in Oct. My name is in for second Selection. missed first one. This was from the message I recieve from the PSO.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: M Feetham on March 16, 2006, 20:13:07
Hey hitormiss,
That is exactly what I did, I went to PSP and went thru the whole test except for the 13k. I am not the best swimmer in the world,(divers take air with them) so you are right it is a real bag drive. I didn't make it the first time and had to try again the following week. What I do now is use these bricks that they have at the base pool and practice the swimming motion doing a few lenghts. It is not the same as the rifle and uniform but at least I can practice. I am hoping my application will make it thru in time for second selection, but I am hearing nasty rumours about it being held back due to the anchor on my beret. Nothing concrete there just scuttlebutt. Am going to talk to my Div Captain and as a couple of questions. Good luck to any one who makes selection.
Cheers Marc :cdn:
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rhibwolf on March 17, 2006, 00:27:59
Marc, is the drogue / anchor a problem from CSOR perspective, or is the Mob unwilling to let you go?
K
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: M Feetham on March 17, 2006, 11:56:46
Killer,
Not sure, the chief of the school is an old bos'n and his whole job is to staff the srecruit school. There are more and more sailors being posted in here every day. I think he doesn't want to let them go. We will see. I think I wil also ask for my jump course. Who knows I may even get it.
Cheers marc :cdn:
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: bilton090 on March 17, 2006, 17:09:15
This arguement is as old as soldiering... and I'm sure will never be finalized to both sides satisfaction.

All I can say speaking for myself and others in my position is that I joined the U.S. military specifically because I did not want to be a 'peacekeeper', I wanted to be part of a unit that I knew would be hard, that I knew would suck and that I knew may go to war.  At the time I signed up there was no Airborne and no JTF.  There are still many people in Canada, believe it or not, that honour the warrior spirit.  Many of my treaty (status Indian) brethren have volunteered to serve in the U.S. specifically to go to war.  My community right now has two people over in Iraq with the U.S. military.  Canada wide there are many.
There is nothing wrong in my eyes with having a unit or units that epitomize the pinnacle of soldiering and the warrior spirit.  It gives us free agents (I consider a reservists in Canada to be a free agents, as they get to pick and chose what they want to do) something attractive to be a part of that would pull us away from our cush jobs or aspiring careers. 

You must be old the CND Airborne was around in the 2nd WW, 60's in Edmonton,70's in Pet - 90's.
Title: Re: JATF
Post by: Technoviking on March 17, 2006, 20:29:01
You must be old the CND Airborne was around in the 2nd WW, 60's in Edmonton,70's in Pet - 90's.
Exactly.  In fact, in 1994, I was on a course in Gagetown in which some candidates were from the Canadian Airborne Regiment, and some were from JTF-2.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: M Feetham on March 21, 2006, 09:47:03
For anybody who is interested, I was told yesterday that the application date has been moved back indefinitly. Due largely I think to the fact that they are not getting the applicants that they were expecting. A very good thing for me cause they gave me my signed and approved application and told me to carry on with it. So my PT test is scheduled for the 30th and 31st of March, and I will book my BPSO interview once that is complete. As for the course I don't know when I will be loaded or when the course will be run. However I am pumped. So if anyone is looking to apply, go for it now.
Cheers Marc. :cdn:
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: greenbox on March 21, 2006, 11:11:50
Hi everyone!
is there somebody who knows the COS date for the CSOR, or is there somebody who received their posting message???
Thanks, greenbox >:D
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: little jim on March 21, 2006, 14:53:45
Hi everyone!
is there somebody who knows the COS date for the CSOR, or is there somebody who received their posting message???
Thanks, greenbox >:D

depends:

CAT 1 – positions are dependant on successful completion of the course – or TBA.

CAT 2 – regular APS and case-by-case.

helpful, ain’t I.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rhibwolf on March 24, 2006, 00:38:40
For anybody who is interested, I was told yesterday that the application date has been moved back indefinitly. Due largely I think to the fact that they are not getting the applicants that they were expecting. A very good thing for me cause they gave me my signed and approved application and told me to carry on with it.
Cheers Marc. :cdn:

Diver Feetham, congrats, you may enter the water when ready.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Canadian Sig on March 27, 2006, 17:17:55
For anybody who is interested, I was told yesterday that the application date has been moved back indefinitly. Due largely I think to the fact that they are not getting the applicants that they were expecting. A very good thing for me cause they gave me my signed and approved application and told me to carry on with it. So my PT test is scheduled for the 30th and 31st of March, and I will book my BPSO interview once that is complete. As for the course I don't know when I will be loaded or when the course will be run. However I am pumped. So if anyone is looking to apply, go for it now.
Cheers Marc. :cdn:

Well congrats. I filled out my app to go cat 2 but was told today that my CoC feels that I need to try out for cat 1 so it appears that I will be joining you on the 30th. All the best to anyone who gives it a go.

Sig
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rider Pride on March 27, 2006, 19:13:32
Sig, see you there.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: patria on March 27, 2006, 22:59:20
I am new to the forum. I have been monitoring some of the posts on the CSOR subject. I submitted my application at the end of February and have been waiting for word to come down on weather or not I've been selected. Has anyone heard anything on there application status, or if they have in fact been selected?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on March 28, 2006, 01:51:04
I am new to the forum. I have been monitoring some of the posts on the CSOR subject. I submitted my application at the end of February and have been waiting for word to come down on weather or not I've been selected. Has anyone heard anything?

Whether you've been selected or not? Sorry, no I haven't heard  ;D

Seriously though, my application Cat B application was out in February, and I know it's gone up my C of C, and is at CANSOFCOM now. I haven't heard anything on selection dates or anything.

Best of luck to you.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: M Feetham on March 29, 2006, 14:43:59
Hey, Canadian Sig,
I don't know what course I will be loaded on yet, I am doing my PT test tomorrow afternoon and then my 13k on Friday afternoon. Once that is done I still have to do my BPSO interview. Once all that is done and the BPSO is happy my file should be sent to Pet. and it will be up to them whether or not I get loaded on a course. Right now I am focused on getting my PTdone and getting to the BPSO. Wish me luck. and good luck to whoever else is thinking of applying.
Cheers Marc :cdn:
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: patria on March 29, 2006, 19:57:29
Good luck man. Drive the body.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: M Feetham on March 31, 2006, 11:57:02
I did my PT yesterday and everyting went well until I got to the pool. Don't know what happened exactly, I was about 2-3 metres from the end and all of a sudden my head was underwater and I swallowed about three cups of water, next thing I know I am puking and gagging and had to grab the side of the pool. So I failed that portion of the test. Everything else was excellent, did Level 9 on the shuttle run and did 50/50/11 for the rest. The PSP guy told me that I keep going with the testing and everything else, but I don't know what will happen with the BPSO and selection board. I may have to redo the PT portion. I will have to wait and see. It sucks cause I've done the swim before. Any advice from anyone would be appreciated.Thanks.
Marc :cdn:
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: M Feetham on March 31, 2006, 17:03:46
PT Test done, 13k done, just waiting for BPSO. Can't wait to do it all again on selection. Have a good weekend everyone.
I'm going for a beer now.
Cheers Marc :cdn:
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rider Pride on March 31, 2006, 20:58:26
Well, not quite everyone... ;) But it is effective as it keeps you face out of the water. The other effective techniques is the side stroke, with the rifle held down the body, butt into the arm pit.

Here in Pet, a couple of the PSP tried the swim portion out of curiosity. The common statement was that the boots suck. Regardless of your method, strong steady leg technique is the key.
There have been 3 troops here in Pet who failed at thier first attempts, got instruction from the PSP over March break, and have all passed thier swim test.

So you can work at it and pass with good practice.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: M Feetham on April 02, 2006, 22:39:21
What really sucks is that when I did the practice with PSP, I passed the test. The problem i think was more a bad couple of strokes and not paying attention. I agree that a strong leg technique is good but a steady rythm and solid swimming basis don't hurt either. I'm not sure what will happen to my application now though, so I carry on and see.
Cheers Marc :cdn:
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: little jim on April 03, 2006, 07:52:31
.....that according to the Joining Instructions the standard for CAT 1 has changed.  Again, correct me if I am wrong.

They might just be getting you to do a different swim test, you know like the one everyone has to do before they use things like assault boats....

(PS - I would have to say you are wrong - std for CAT 1 PT test has not changed.)

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: M Feetham on April 03, 2006, 08:57:17
Does anyone know if the Cansofcom website is up and running, I would like to get more information on what the unit will be doing and anything that might be available.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Hatchet Man on April 03, 2006, 09:26:34
Does anyone know if the Cansofcom website is up and running, I would like to get more information on what the unit will be doing and anything that might be available.
Thanks.

if you go here http://www.cansofcom.forces.gc.ca/  it says the site is under construction

although the Canada Command site is up and running http://www.canadacom.forces.gc.ca/
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: little jim on April 04, 2006, 16:40:04
I hope you are right, although, I was only posting what my Joining Instructions said.  I am curious though, where are you getting the information that the CAT 1 PT (swim) test hasn't changed from? 

Ref your question – the document that you keep posting on the internet (you might want to think about that one) mentions the CF swim test “in addition” to the PT test you had to do....
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rider Pride on April 06, 2006, 20:48:19
For all wondering about messages...

They are being cut this week. The first from 3 RCR for got thiers for thier course.

Course starts 18 Apr.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rhibwolf on April 07, 2006, 02:27:52
Any idea on how many people are on the course?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: M Feetham on April 07, 2006, 08:40:53
Hey Killer,
All my paperwork is filled out and turned in to the BOR for myinterview with the BPSO, hopefully they will get me in fast. Although it is too late for this selection, who really wants to do all that training when it is warm and sunny out. A nice winter course is where it is at. MMMMMMM, subzero weather, patrols in the snow. Yayyyyyyy.
Take care brother hopefully we will see each other there.
Marc :cdn:
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rhibwolf on April 07, 2006, 23:48:00
Marc, Im glad you are making progress. My branch still has the brakes locked tight, so I wait with bated breath.  On an unrelated note, and speaking of breath, Ive been getting lots of dives in. Im proficient, in fact!!! 
See you soon.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: M Feetham on April 09, 2006, 17:30:38
Feel free to kiss my A$$.
I havn't even had my wetsuit on in 8 months.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: BulletMagnet on April 09, 2006, 18:13:40
MF,

Thats ok man I havent had a wetsuit on in umm ohhh say 10 years?

I did have a dry suit on last winter does that count?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: M Feetham on April 09, 2006, 19:46:53
yeah in a way,
What were you wearing it for, do you dive civie, or was it something for work?
Marc
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: BulletMagnet on April 09, 2006, 21:33:06
Work, we did a big EX up North with the rnagers and I was the dumb SOB that volunteered to get in the water for the rescue portion...
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: M Feetham on April 10, 2006, 09:01:10
Super cool brother,
When I went to the gulf in 2001, we did diver deployments from the seaking, just before we transitted the Suez Canal, man it was so blue you could see the sharks coming for a mile. It was awesome.
Cheers Marc :cdn:
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: M Feetham on April 13, 2006, 09:48:00
Got a call from the BPSO's office yesterday afternoon, they want me to come in and do my phsyche evals next week. They are going to call me Tuesday with the times. Wish me luck, everyone have a good easter weekend.
Cheers Feet :cdn: :pushup:
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on April 13, 2006, 13:05:22
Best of Luck with that, Feet!

Have a good weekend

Des
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: M Feetham on April 23, 2006, 10:32:04
For anyone who is still checking this thread, Psyche evals are done, BPSO interview is on Tuesday morning. One step closer to selection.
Feet :cdn:
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: painswessex on April 23, 2006, 10:38:25
good luck to you there is only one navy dude on the course right now
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: M Feetham on April 23, 2006, 13:27:04
For anyone who might have read my last post, especially painswessex, disregard. Had a temporary lapse in good judgement. My apologies to all. Thanks to AM for bringing it to my attention.
Feet. I owe you 25. :pushup:
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Hatchet Man on May 09, 2006, 14:26:19
Too bad thats just the DIN site, no action yet on the public site.
Title: Canadian Special Operations Regiment: "interim operational capability" Sept. 1
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 05, 2006, 11:29:45
Two stories in the Ottawa Citizen today--second lengthy.

Creating Canada's new Commandos: Elite fighting regiment will soon be ready for 'all sorts of scenarios'
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=43f1becd-1cfe-452d-982f-53e29ca0d7d5


Riding with Canada's Commandos: At an undisclosed location in southern British Columbia, members of the Canadian Special Operations Regiment are about to take flight -- literally. In less than a month, the unit, based in Petawawa, will be ready for its initial operations as part of Canada's plan to boost the size of its special forces. But not everyone is convinced we can do it.
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/observer/story.html?id=392bbbcb-3c87-41eb-9183-a92ce8213a18

Mark
Ottawa



Title: Special ops unit gives force public face
Post by: Booked_Spice on August 08, 2006, 04:55:04
I am not sure where to post this, However if it is in the wrong thread please move it and if it has been posted before, I am sorry.
I found this article very interesting and thought I would share.

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=532862cc-3968-4aaa-8b85-7f0b243ebf76&k=19330
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: MCG on August 17, 2006, 13:12:49
For those on DWAN:

CANFORGEN 129/06 CDS 046/06 110800Z AUG 06 (http://vcds.dwan.dnd.ca/vcds-exec/pubs/canforgen/2006/129-06_e.asp)
CANADIAN SPECIAL OPERATIONS REGIMENT (CDN SPEC OPS REGT) RECRUITING CAMPAIGN 2007 - CDN SPEC OPS REGT OPERATORS AND SUPPORTERS
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: paracowboy on August 17, 2006, 13:29:23
just go to DIN homepage. It's the first CANFORGEN.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Rider Pride on August 18, 2006, 00:20:05
Can't pick it up on the internet, must go to the DIN to read it. Sounds like they're recruiting now for the next course now that the first serial is complete. Perhaps they will use some of thier newly minted "operators" as recruiting personnel.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: M Feetham on August 18, 2006, 10:34:34
I was talking to one of the guys in Pet via the phone number in the CANFORGEN and he told me that messages for the next serial will be out before x-mas and the next serial will run FEB/MAR 2007. So people should know if they are going soon. Also a good chance that the next course will not be held in Pet, but the SGT could not give me any details. You know how it is.  Just a reminder to anyone who has applied that the express test for the CSOR is only valid for 6 months. So if you need to redo it, do so before the 24 of November. That's all I have for now. Good luck to any one who is waiting for a message. Hope to see you there.
Feet :cdn:
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) [formerly "Joint Action Task Force" (JATF)]
Post by: Diverchick on September 03, 2006, 14:16:40
Hey there, just finished my PT tests last week for CSOR. Next up BPSO stuff. I'm off to Wainwright for a month ex, bringing my kettlebells with me for training, anyone got any suggestions for training between now and February? Guess I'm just going to do a lot of cardio, body weight stuff, but if anyone has an idea of what we should be training, please pass it on, as due to Operational Tempo, I really have to use my time left wisely. I got 9 on the run, 45 pushups, 50+ situps, 9 pullups, and did the march in 2h 12min. So any suggestions will be greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
CHIMO
BUBBLES UP!
Diverchick  >:D
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: EX_RCAC_011 on September 17, 2006, 00:30:28
Hey looking for someone to PM me the sheet with up to level 4 for the CSOR PT testing.I had a copy but seemed to misplace it.
cheers
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Technoviking on September 17, 2006, 08:50:02
I think that there is a copy of that PT Testing booklet at the base gym in G'town.
Ask the PSP people, they should be able to help
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: ArmyVern on September 17, 2006, 09:33:07
Hey looking for someone to PM me the sheet with up to level 4 for the CSOR PT testing.I had a copy but seemed to misplace it.
cheers


This link may be of some assistance:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,35793.msg316320.html#msg316320 (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,35793.msg316320.html#msg316320)
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: EX_RCAC_011 on September 22, 2006, 21:49:27
Nope.Not min req.I'll get it of PSP monday.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Bubbles on October 06, 2006, 14:23:02
Army News article: http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1_1.asp?id=1298
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: EX_RCAC_011 on October 07, 2006, 21:24:14
After reading right through this tread I actually thought up questions that was somehow not asked.If say a naval tradesman applies for cat 1 and passes.After 3 years he/she wants to go into the regular infantry.Would this member have to do infantry battle school?

Also from a leadership perspective would a CSS tradesman be promoted from Cpl to Mcpl in the unit with only a PLQ land qualification? Where infantry do a different MOD 6. I understand that the unit is different in some aspects but I thought I put it out there for discussion.

Also to get promoted would you still have to go do your trade specific courses I.E armd mcpl would have to go do his patrol commanders course with the rest of his armoured peers to get promoted within CSOR.

cheers
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Hatchet Man on October 07, 2006, 22:01:23
After reading right through this tread I actually thought up questions that was somehow not asked.If say a naval tradesman applies for cat 1 and passes.After 3 years he/she wants to go into the regular infantry.Would this member have to do infantry battle school?

Also from a leadership perspective would a CSS tradesman be promoted from Cpl to Mcpl in the unit with only a PLQ land qualification? Where infantry do a different MOD 6. I understand that the unit is different in some aspects but I thought I put it out there for discussion.

Also to get promoted would you still have to go do your trade specific courses I.E armd mcpl would have to go do his patrol commanders course with the rest of his armoured peers to get promoted within CSOR.

cheers

questions along this vein were asked at the info session I attended. The basic answer to these sorts of question were, there are no definetive answers yet as they are still sorting things out, and that they would cross that bridge if and when those situation arose.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Rider Pride on October 08, 2006, 23:13:41
My best guesses on what I hear about the unit...
After reading right through this tread I actually thought up questions that was somehow not asked.If say a naval tradesman applies for cat 1 and passes.After 3 years he/she wants to go into the regular infantry.Would this member have to do infantry battle school?
Yes, but he'd have a breeze doing it.
Quote
Also from a leadership perspective would a CSS tradesman be promoted from Cpl to Mcpl in the unit with only a PLQ land qualification? Where infantry do a different MOD 6. I understand that the unit is different in some aspects but I thought I put it out there for discussion.
Like any other trade as long as you have your trade qualification for MCpl, you do not absolutely need a PLQ to be promoted to MCpl. Remember acting lacking...?
Quote
Also to get promoted would you still have to go do your trade specific courses I.E armd mcpl would have to go do his patrol commanders course with the rest of his armoured peers to get promoted within CSOR.
So far all career courses for your specific trade need to be complete before you are promoted to the next rank level. So to answer your question Yes, an Armour MCpl would need to complete his 6A (or DP3A, or whatever it is...) to be promoted to Sgt in the unit. Same as the infantry need to do thier DP3B to be promoted to WO.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Combat Sailor on October 20, 2006, 22:03:04
I heard that the upcoming CSOR course is possibly being post-poned. Apparently Ottawa is thinking of re-evaluating the 'role' of CSOR. Has anyone else heard anything to this extent?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Combat Sailor on October 20, 2006, 22:16:07
Hey, I am in the same boat, just got back from the field, and have to do my PT Test next week, not alot of time for training. I have a buddy who was on the first course that went through. He said that you really have to emphasize on the ruck marches. I spoke with the CSOR guys when they were doing their recruiting tour, and they said that you have a chance to improve or grow as the course progresses. If you can pass the PT Test, you should not have a hard time on the course. Good luck, maybe I will see you in February.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Rhibwolf on November 29, 2006, 17:40:56
Its a link in the CSOR website.  http://cansofcom-comfoscan.mil.ca/EN/noticeofintent_e.asp
once you fill it in, they should contact you to tell you what you need to do next - like see the BPSO, etc.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Hatchet Man on November 29, 2006, 22:18:46
Does anyone know what the notice of intent to join CSOR is? It's not an actual application to the unit, but what exactly is it?

When I went to an info session, they said it was basically so they could keep tabs on you, say you apply, but don't get around to booking the test or interview or something, they call you up to say "Hey whats going on, is their something that has kept you from progressing (ie injury, family situation changed, etc.)"
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Dilea_Gu_Bas on February 23, 2007, 16:33:29
The word I received is that,

CLS is screening all CSOR applicants from Land Force to ensure that we maintain our ability to meet our operational commitments overseas. Reg F Battalions are already hurting, especially with everyone releasing upon return.
 
Essentially the SOBQ course dates are constantly being pushed back. Hope those PT tests don't lapse.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: little jim on February 23, 2007, 17:02:12
If I was going to start a rumour about course dates I would say that there is a course starting on 10 Apr (Tuesday – it is a long weekend) and the second one soon after the end of the first – prob early  Oct 07.

As for the PT scores - another rumour might be that everyone is doing the PT test during the first week of the course.

Title: Re: Tan berets and other CANSOFCOM, JTF, and CSOR fashions [1st split: CSOR]
Post by: Bubbles on March 18, 2007, 02:15:39
Quote
I think 3 yrs is a minimum, and that you can stay after that.

I don't really think that will be the arrangement. Logic suggests it will end up something like how the U.S. Army Rangers are organized.

Pers who are selected would serve with the unit for 3 years and each of the DA companies will rotate through a managed readiness basis. After the 3 year term is up and due to high op tempo, pers will be released to their previous units and may or may not be posted back to the unit later in their careers.
Title: Re: Tan berets and other CANSOFCOM, JTF, and CSOR fashions [1st split: CSOR]
Post by: Rider Pride on March 18, 2007, 04:19:21
Pers who are selected would serve with the unit for 3 years and each of the DA companies will rotate through a managed readiness basis. After the 3 year term is up and due to high op tempo, pers will be released to their previous units and may or may not be posted back to the unit later in their careers.

Logic says you are right of of 'ere. Think about what you are saying. First mistake is CSOR does not = US Army Rangers.

Unless the Army is to create a new occupation for CSOR, then members will have to leave regularly in order to develop & get promoted in their occupation.

The CF (not the army...CANSOF is not "army") did that for assaulters, why not same for Cat 1 in CSOR? Also as a separate CANSOF regiment, would they not be able to promote within their unit as posns open?
Title: Re: Tan berets and other CANSOFCOM, JTF, and CSOR fashions [1st split: CSOR]
Post by: MCG on March 18, 2007, 09:47:39
The CF did that for assaulters, why not same for Cat 1 in CSOR? Also as a separate CANSOF regiment, would they not be able to promote within their unit as posns open?
It is possible, that is why I suggested it was possible.  However, the CF would then have to answer the question: after what time & what number of promotions, as a CSOR MSOID in CANSOFCOM, would a solder/sailor/airman be so out of touch with his/her initial occupation that a formal OT would be required in order to return to that occupation.
Title: Re: Tan berets and other CANSOFCOM, JTF, and CSOR fashions [1st split: CSOR]
Post by: Bubbles on March 18, 2007, 12:21:20
Quote
Logic says you are right of of 'ere. Think about what you are saying. First mistake is CSOR does not = US Army Rangers.

I didn't say CSOR was like Army Rangers, in fact I disagree with that statement. There are definetly similarities that I can see, but they are not one in the same.

As for pers rotation, watch and shoot I geuss.
Title: Re: Tan berets and other CANSOFCOM, JTF, and CSOR fashions [1st split: CSOR]
Post by: devil39 on March 18, 2007, 12:42:22
Logic says you are right of of 'ere. Think about what you are saying. First mistake is CSOR does not = US Army Rangers.

SMMT,

In your opinion what does, or what should, CSOR equate to?
Title: Re: Tan berets and other CANSOFCOM, JTF, and CSOR fashions [1st split: CSOR]
Post by: Rider Pride on March 18, 2007, 13:17:18
In your opinion what does, or what should, CSOR equate to?

CSOR, by definition, is a tier 2 SF unit. I would have to say more along the line of Navy Seals, and Army SF, resembling the Aussie 4 RAR. I don't know enough about foreign SF units to make an educated comparison to other countries. But they are definitely not young, underexperienced, and over-disciplined US Rangers.

But I would imagine by working closely with the JTF2 in the next couple yrs, they will make their own "name" and earn their own place for we unwashed masses .



Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: MCG on March 18, 2007, 19:35:17
CSOR, by definition, is a tier 2 SF unit.
By who's definition?

But they are definitely not young, underexperienced, and over-disciplined US Rangers.
All the mean things you can say about the US Rangers aside, that organization does provide a certain capability to the US SOF community.  If CSOR does not do this, then there is no organization in Canada which can.  The Army's light battalions are being mechanized, so this will not exist as a fall back.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Weinie on March 18, 2007, 20:56:53
  The tiers construct is an American one, and doesn't really apply for CSOR. The org will have both a DA and SF capability. A Rangers comparison is fitting: think 75th Ranger Bn and its' role within USSOCOM.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Journeyman on March 18, 2007, 21:17:03
Have a look at the testimony of Col Barr, (http://www.parl.gc.ca/39/1/parlbus/commbus/senate/Com-e/defe-e/pdf/07issue.pdf) Commander CANSOFCOM, in Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence, 27 November 2006

Quote
Senator Banks: It [CSOR] is a regiment, and I gather that it would never, in the conventional sense, be in the field as a regiment.
Is that correct?
Col. Barr: I would not rule it out.

Senator Banks: It would be in a force-on-force situation.
Col. Barr: It would be rare. In most of the force employment models, most of the scenarios we foresee, it probably would have a company group or, what we call, a direct action company deployed. It might have elements of its regimental headquarters with it and would be part of an overall special operations task force, but I would not rule it out. It could, in extreme, do a task that might be associated with a ranger battalion in the United States.

Senator Banks: That is what I am thinking. If you have 750 people, who are trained to a standard that is different—if not
higher than other regiments — when a rotation comes up, there would be a great temptation to use them as a unit. However, you say that would be rare, if at all.
Col. Barr: I believe it would be rare. If it is treated as just another conventional unit — not that there is anything wrong with conventional units, I commanded 3PPCLI and am proud of it — but if it was thrown at a conventional task, then we would have, frankly, made a mistake. Due to the training, investment and selection, if we were to put it to a task for which someone else was able, then that is probably not a task for our special operations forces.

--------
[further on in the transcript]
 Col. Barr: I can understand that analogy, but it is not perfect. For certain tasks, JTF2 is clearly the best capability we have. Your analogy of 100 per cent for a hostage rescue, let us say, is absolutely right and the Canadian Special Operations Regiment would bring a supporting role to something like a hostage rescue scenario.

However, particularly in operations abroad, there are some types of operations where it would be better to have the Canadian Special Operations Regiment, given its training, its insertion capability and its size than throw a small element of JTF2 at a particular problem. In the main, the Canadian Special Operations Regiment enables special operations and, specifically, JTF2; thus, JTF2 can focus on the precise tasks for which they are so well selected and trained. However, particularly in out-of-area operations, we see that the Canadian Special Operations Regiment would be the more appropriate organization to put to the task.
My emphasis.

The tiers construct is an American one, and doesn't really apply for CSOR.
By virtue of our ABCA (http://www.abca-armies.org/) membership, we commonly use "tiers" in discussions amongst allies.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: KevinB on March 18, 2007, 21:46:25
Secondly in terms of itself CANSOFCOM does refer to its assets as Tier I, TierII capability...
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: MCG on March 18, 2007, 22:20:41
Quote
Col. Barr: It would be rare. In most of the force employment models, most of the scenarios we foresee, it probably would have a company group or, what we call, a direct action company deployed. It might have elements of its regimental headquarters with it and would be part of an overall special operations task force, but I would not rule it out. It could, in extreme, do a task that might be associated with a ranger battalion in the United States.
It seems to me that Col Barr is saying that the Regt will operate as companies & not as a battalion.  So it will not get the task of a US Ranger battalion, but it might get such company tasks.

Secondly in terms of itself CANSOFCOM does refer to its assets as Tier I, TierII capability...
Without providing a run-down of US interpretation, how does CANSOFCOM define these tiers?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: SF2 on March 18, 2007, 22:50:33
I couldn't find any official CANSOFCOM defintions.  Its not up to them to define.  Its a common system considered and used by many countries.

However, if you still want a rundown from a canadian source, consider this quote from the Canadian Military Journal, Vol 5, No 3:

Quote
And, it is not just anyone who is capable of such feats.
The focus on the individual, and specifically his capability, is
not surprising when one considers the rigorous selection
process and the performance standards achieved. As such,
SOF can be broken down into roughly three tiers that
correspond both to the rigour of the selection standards and
to the role equated with each level. For example, ‘Tier One’
SOF consists of primarily ‘black operations’ or counter
terrorism. Normally, only 10 to 15 percent of those
attempting selection are successful. What makes this number
so impressive is that a large percentage of those trying out
are already second or third tier SOF members. Organizations
that fall into this category include the US 1st Special
Forces Operational Detachment (Delta), the German
Grenzschutzgruppe-9 (GSG 9), the Canadian Joint
Task Force-2 (JTF 2), and the Polish Commandos
(Grupa Reagowania Operacyjno Mobilnego) (GROM)
(Operational Mobile Response Group), to name but a few.

Tier Two SOF reflects those organizations that have a
selection pass rate of between 20 and 30 percent. They are
normally entrusted with high value tasks such as Strategic
Reconnaissance and Unconventional Warfare. It is at this
level that selection is separated from training because the
skill sets are considered so difficult that the testers are
looking only for attributes that cannot be inculcated.
The actual skills required can be taught later during the
training phase. Some examples include the American Special
Forces (also referred to as Green Berets), the US Navy
SEALs, and the British, Australian and New Zealand SAS.72

The final grouping, or ‘Tier Three’, consists of those
units, such as the American Rangers, that have a selection
success rate of 40 to 45 percent, and whose primary mission
is Direct Action. At this level, selection is mixed with
training. However, the quality control line is drawn here.
Generally, units below this line are not considered SOF.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: daftandbarmy on March 18, 2007, 23:41:14
I'm thinking that Tier 1 are the guys going in and doing the door kicking. Tier 2 are the 'cavalry' who provide cordon/ area ambush and other associated tasks that allow the Tier 1 guys to go in and do the business without having to look over their shoulders. If the mission calls for it, the Tier 2 support could be up to battalion size. I assume that we'll learn more about this, as a nation, once we get more experience in action.

The value of having a standing unit like CSOR that works with JTF on a regular basis is familiarity with procedures and personalities. For example, SF in Northern Ireland were regularly supported by police and other assets formed into a unit specifically designed to support SF operations. This avoided problems with security and familiarity with SOPs etc etc. This means that small and specialized units can stick their necks way out there with the back up they need to survive and achieve even more than planned. Even James Bond needed a support team.

Ultimately, a sound Tier 2 organization can make Tier 1 operations far more successful and broad ranging in terms of their effects.

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Weinie on March 19, 2007, 07:49:14
   You won't find a CANSOFCOM definition because they avoid the usage of the tier construct. As indicated in the post above from the Cdn Military Journal, the tiers definitions can not be applied to CANSOFCOM, because units can/do slip across the "boundaries" if you will, that have been defined in terms of role.   
   
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: KevinB on March 19, 2007, 12:05:35
Honestly - I have no idea on how they are splitting hairs right now

JTF-2 is a Tier1 entity - it gets mentioned repeatedly now in the recruiting days. The fact it does all three tiering missions -- but the kicker - is the Domestic and Foreign CT and National Level Incident responce.

Depending upon which side of the CANSOFCOM coin your on, depends on how CSOR is viewed in the Tier.

From my own world view - I would view them as a TierII unit, by the TierII equated to Tier1 support.


  However that argument over Tier'age comes back up - in that by US def'n the TierIII unit (ie. USSF ) may (and in the SF does) have a back up TierII role, and even have emergency standalone TierI capability.)


I think the Tierage issue is a misnomer in many respects since it tries to divide warfare into a neat little pie.


 
 
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: wakingheart on July 29, 2007, 16:14:41
I would percieve the organization of the Units to be very diferent from that of the Americans. I think the best way to understand (Or at least I hope my perception is correct) is found in the CSOR ethos, the Term warrior diplomat and the emphazise on individual leadership seems to point towards a different ideological role then JTF2.

Since JTF2 has been the only special forces unit in Canada since the Somolia incident, they have been responsible for essentially everything, but with the integration of CSOR thier work load has been lessoned and they can focus more on counter-terrorism. It seems to be counter intuative to constantly be using  JTF2 in Afgahanistan and other areas of Operations, if there are sever casualties it leaves Canadians vulnerable.  Imagine for a second that a group of armed Islamists storming the Parliment to decapatate Prime Minister Harper, if say the bulk of the Unit was out in the boonies, Canada would get a serious black eye. I am sure they would continue with intelligence gathering for CSIS but it seems like CSOR may become the go to guys for Overseas operations, I am rather certain that talent from both units would be interchangeable given operational requirments and availability. It also seems that CSOR will have individual specialized unit, so regardless of comparing the pass fail entrance requirments, recruitment would be based upon special skills as well as Physical testing. It just seems to me that they are excpecting CSOR operators to do allot more then just kill and gather intel, though for certain that may be a part of it. Like I said earlier, the statment on a pervious page when Col. Barr mentioned that they may be responsible for overseas operations, should be noted. There has also been media chatter about putting them to use for rapid response for the United Nations, but that is just speculation.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: 3rd Herd on July 29, 2007, 16:19:57
but that is just speculation.
so is your profile information  ;)
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Greymatters on April 29, 2008, 18:09:13
Since JTF2 has been the only special forces unit in Canada since the Somolia incident...

Are you refering to the whole Airborne Regiment as a former special forces unit, or some other unit?

Edit - Oops, missed the date of the post...
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: geo on April 29, 2008, 19:27:27
Are you refering to the whole Airborne Regiment as a former special forces unit, or some other unit?
Considering the fella was last active in July of 2007, I don't think he hears you.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: wakingheart on April 30, 2008, 02:05:19
Nah I am still around. I guess I was just not being careful enough with my words. What I should have said that the Airborne Regiment was the closest thing we had to special operators.

But this is another debate. I will just put up the definition.

Special Forces (dictionary.com)

–noun
Army personnel trained to organize, instruct, supply, and supervise indigenous forces engaged in guerrilla warfare and counterinsurgency operations, and to themselves conduct unconventional warfare.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: wakingheart on April 30, 2008, 03:36:08
No bubble bursting here, I modified the post but walked away and left it sitting on my comp for a bit. I did not think I would get a response so soon. Once again the Airborne was the closest thing we had after the Devils Brigade.

Look into the organizational structure of the Airborne But if you really want to get into this start a new thread. Plus I would talk to some old Airborne guys about the their training back in the day, a decent amount of it would fit in the contemporary definition. Unfortunately however

This is an interesting article that seems to be right on the money.

http://www.commando.org/airborne-history/the-canadian-airborne-as-a-military-elite-fact-or-fiction/

Like I said closest thing we had.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Rider Pride on April 30, 2008, 08:30:09
wakingheart,
while your definition of "special forces" is correct, you interpretation of what the Airborne were designed to do, or Canadian Special operations do is not. JTF2 and CSOR are special operation forces. Neither are, by your definition, special forces as they are not
Quote
trained to organize, instruct, supply, and supervise indigenous forces engaged in guerrilla warfare and counterinsurgency operations
.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: wakingheart on April 30, 2008, 13:27:28
Hey don't shoot the messenger that is the Dictionary definition of Special Forces. Mind you I think that this definition is a little antiquated and not reflective of current realties. I mean before counter terrorism was the domain of police forces, but the new realities explain why the Army has it now and not the RCMP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4p-kaEMWAU&feature=related

Look at 03:13 in this video. CSOR fits the dictionary definition of special forces perfectly. Training indigenous forces how to "protect" themselves from terrorism is pretty much akin to saying.

Will CSOR be trained to organize, instruct, supply, and supervise indigenous forces engaged in counterinsurgency operations. It is not a stretch to add guerrilla warfare to that list. If you can train counter insurgency you can train insurgents. However it is not exactly a characteristic of Canada to train and supply insurgents simply that we would have the capacity if necessary.

I mean when it comes down to it JTF2 was created for counter-terrorism but we had no Special Forces so when it became necessary they were the only ones trained to do the job. Hence JTF2 involvement in Afghanistan. This of course represents an enhanced mandate for JTF2.

Personally I think that CSOR is the first Canadian Special forces since the Devils Brigade(1st Special Service Force) that has not been really ad hoc and founded upon a clear and thought out organizational ideology. CSOR is created by the best minds of the Canadian Forces. I am really impressed with the concept of CSOR it is genius and really does address discrepancies in CF operational capacity.

Just another quick comment on the Airborne, from the stories I have heard the guys were trained in counter insurgency operations and unconventional operations. Hell jumping into combat is pretty unconventional as it is. Not to mention I have heard stories about reg forces  doing training exercises against the Airborne and pretty much getting their #$% handed to them and the @#$# kicked out of them literally. This story did not come from someone from the Airborne, it came from a Reg force guy that got his @#$ kicked.

I would argue perhaps that the Airborne was more of a quick reaction Commando unit.

com·man·do     Audio Help   (kə-mān'dō)  Pronunciation Key
n.   pl. com·man·dos or com·man·does

   1.
         1. A small fighting force specially trained for making quick destructive raids against enemy-held areas.
         2. A member of such a force.
         3. An organized force of Boer troops in South Africa.
         4. A raid made by such a force.
   2.
         1. An organized force of Boer troops in South Africa.
         2. A raid made by such a force.

But still this is the closest thing to special forces since the Devils Brigade. Just to repeat myself I am not claiming that the CAR was special forces.  I would perhaps argue that the CAR was best equipped to handle Special Operations. Seriously though if you want to debate the Airborne lets start a different thread and then just PM me.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: George Wallace on April 30, 2008, 13:41:28
Hey don't shoot the messenger that is the Dictionary definition of Special Forces. Mind you I think that this definition is a little antiquated and not reflective of current realties. I mean before counter terrorism was the domain of police forces, but the new realities explain why the Army has it now and not the RCMP.

And Counter Terrorism, and Counter Intelligence, are still fairly much the domain of Police Forces (Municipal, Provincial, Federal and Military) within Canada. 

Just another quick comment on the Airborne, from the stories I have heard the guys were trained in counter insurgency operations and unconventional operations. Hell jumping into combat is pretty unconventional as it is. Not to mention I have heard stories about reg forces  doing training exercises against the Airborne and pretty much getting their #$% handed to them and the @#$# kicked out of them literally. This story did not come from someone from the Airborne, it came from a Reg force guy that got his @#$ kicked.

Depends on who you talk to.  I have worked with and talked with members of units who have done the opposite with the Airborne; KICKED THEIR ARSES.  Afterall, they were only Infantry, once they got on the ground, and sometimes not even that as they spent their time in the air.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: wakingheart on April 30, 2008, 14:28:51
Quote
And Counter Terrorism, and Counter Intelligence, are still fairly much the domain of Police Forces (Municipal, Provincial, Federal and Military) within Canada. 

JTF2 took over the mandate of SERT from the RCMP. SERT was disbanded, reportedly, due to problems the officers had resolving the necessity to kill versus their desire to protect and save lives.That was the reason for the creation of JTF2 it was not created to be a conventional special forces unit but later developed that capacity. You can almost compare the development of JTF2 to give a mouse a cookie.

Then of course he will take hostages, call Al-Jazeera demanding that the west give him a glass of milk only to be taken out on live TV by JTF2 :)

JTF2 is simply an expanded counter-terrorism unit. CSOR from its inception is a special forces regiment this has been declared to the Canadian Public straight up. Honestly on a political level I do not feel comfortable with the expansion of JTF2 from its originally declared purpose of counter-terrorism. I am not bad mouthing any of the guys or their accomplishments but simply put it wasn't put forward in a proper manner for approval by the Canadian public like CSOR. I mean thank god we had the capacity but JTF2's has significantly deviated from its original purpose.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: George Wallace on April 30, 2008, 14:45:41
There is a heck of a lot to Counter Terrorism and Counter Intelligence, than SERT.  You do remember 17 arrests in the GTA a while back?  This was a police operation.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Technoviking on April 30, 2008, 14:57:14
If "Special Forces" are used to train indigenous forces in counterinsurgency, then aren't our OMLT's "special forces"?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Haggis on April 30, 2008, 15:06:04
http://www.rcmp.ca/ert/ert_e.htm => If they were disbanded why are they here?

There is a difference between SERT and ERT.

ERTs are regional teams, stood up and mandated to assist local and federal LEA IAW thier mandates roles and tasks.  SERT, the "Special" ERT was mandated to conduct "high value missions" in the national interest, much as JTF 2 is mandated now.  Note the distinction in roles and tasks.  SERT was a national level resource (as is JTF 2).  ERTs are not.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Old Sweat on April 30, 2008, 15:28:10
Walkingheart

Reference your comment "JTF2 is simply an expanded counter-terrorism unit. CSOR from its inception is a special forces regiment this has been declared to the Canadian Public straight up. Honestly on a political level I do not feel comfortable with the expansion of JTF2 from its originally declared purpose of counter-terrorism. I am not bad mouthing any of the guys or their accomplishments but simply put it wasn't put forward in a proper manner for approval by the Canadian public like CSOR. I mean thank god we had the capacity but JTF2's has significantly deviated from its original purpose." the original role given the unit by the Governor-in-Council was words to the effect to undertake high value missions for the Government of Canada. While the perception and the majority of the original focus was on counter-terrorism, that never was the exclusive role.

I am unable to confirm or deny any further information regarding the unit and its employment.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: daftandbarmy on April 30, 2008, 18:08:19
I am unable to confirm or deny any further information regarding the unit and its employment.

Thank goodness, otherwise we would have had to make you eat your own head!  ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: PPCLI Guy on April 30, 2008, 18:17:33
If "Special Forces" are used to train indigenous forces in counterinsurgency, then aren't our OMLT's "special forces"?

"Special" they already are...but in a "we get our own Olympics" kind of way  ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: NL_engineer on April 30, 2008, 18:27:36
"Special" they already are...but in a "we get our own Olympics" kind of way  ;D

 :rofl:

Your just mean ;D

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Haggis on April 30, 2008, 21:48:07
"Special" they already are...but in a "we get our own Olympics" kind of way  ;D

I'm guessing that you don't have any desire to command the OMLT??
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Rider Pride on April 30, 2008, 22:06:05
And whats all this have to do with CSOR? (other than anyone there would probably agree they need thier own olympics too... ;) )
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Haggis on April 30, 2008, 22:23:03
And whats all this have to do with CSOR? (other than anyone there would probably agree they need thier own olympics too... ;) )

From reply 428 onwards.... not much.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Hatchet Man on April 30, 2008, 23:58:48
If "Special Forces" are used to train indigenous forces in counterinsurgency, then aren't our OMLT's "special forces"?

I think the confusion lies in the fact that the quote waking heart provided was referring to THE Special Forces (ie US Army Special Forces aka green berets), rather than the more broad term Special OPERATION Forces ie everyone else. (someone tried clearing that up on the last page can't remember who it was).
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Good2Golf on May 01, 2008, 00:00:15
I think the confusion lies in the fact that the quote waking heart provided was referring to THE Special Forces (ie US Army Special Forces aka green berets), rather than the more broad term Special OPERATION Forces ie everyone else. (someone tried clearing that up on the last page can't remember who it was).

Uh-oh!  Not the Tier-1, Tier-2, Tier-3 thing about to happen all over again?  :o
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: wakingheart on May 01, 2008, 00:02:58
Quote
I think the confusion lies in the fact that the quote waking heart provided was referring to THE Special Forces (ie US Army Special Forces aka green berets), rather than the more broad term Special OPERATION Forces ie everyone else. (someone tried clearing that up on the last page can't remember who it was).

Yeah no your right my bad
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: MCG on May 01, 2008, 02:33:47
Special Forces (dictionary.com)

–noun
Army personnel trained to organize, instruct, supply, and supervise indigenous forces engaged in guerrilla warfare and counterinsurgency operations, and to themselves conduct unconventional warfare.
Dictionaries are good for definitions, but they have their limitations, ans some dictionaries are more appropriate than others.

If one checks the NATO dictionary, AAP-6(2007), they will find absolutely no entries for "special operations forces" and the term "special forces" does not even appear.  However, you do find:


Quote
direct action
A short-duration strike or other small-scale offensive action by special operations forces or special operations-capable units to seize, destroy, capture, recover or inflict damage to achieve specific, welldefined and often time-sensitive results.
01 Oct 2001
Quote
special operations
Military activities conducted by specially designated, organized, trained and equipped forces using operational techniques and modes of employment not standard to conventional forces.  These activities are conducted across the full range of military operations independently or in coordination with operations of conventional forces to achieve political, military, psychological and economic objectives. Politicomilitary considerations may require clandestine, covert or discreet techniques and the acceptance of a degree of physical and political risk not associated with conventional operations.
13 Dec 1999
Quote
special reconnaissance and surveillance
Reconnaissance and surveillance activities conducted by special operations forces, which complement theatre intelligence assets and systems by obtaining strategic and/or operational information. These are human intelligence operations, conducted independently or in support of conventional operations, which may use special techniques, equipment, methods or indigenous assets.
04 Oct 2000
It's not conclusive as the term "infantry" is nowhere within AAP-6(2007), but it certainly gives a hint as to what the appropriate phrase should be.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: SealofZanza on May 04, 2008, 01:28:19
The definition you got waking heart is definitley that of the american green berets. If you look at the wikipedia between the two you will see that the green berets are in charge of guerilla training while special operations is a vast general definition.

Anyway as it seems CSOR has changed some of the time requisites lately support staff no time is now needed and assaulters are a definite need of 2 years as the trying to recruit brand new privates has not seemed to work too well.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Ex-Dragoon on May 04, 2008, 14:59:27
Do yourself a favour and don't rely on wikipedia to get your military facts.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Greymatters on May 06, 2008, 19:53:15
Do yourself a favour and don't rely on wikipedia to get your military facts.

Ah, Wikipedia, where the real meaning and definition of a subject is decided by college students and popular opinion...
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: daftandbarmy on May 06, 2008, 23:11:56
And it's official... Wank-i-pedia it is...

http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=490337
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Greymatters on May 07, 2008, 00:12:44
An excellent example.  And such a shame too, as the site does have a lot of useful and easily accessable information, but its all for shite if its not credible or reliable...

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Lune on June 19, 2008, 01:14:34
Super wannabe sniper ninja doorkicking asskicker checking in.

How similar is CSOR to the American SOF groups??
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Ex-Dragoon on June 19, 2008, 17:09:31
Super wannabe sniper ninja doorkicking asskicker checking in.

How similar is CSOR to the American SOF groups??

Use Search....and you will find the answers.

Milnet.ca Staff
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: wakingheart on June 19, 2008, 19:32:11
Quote
Do yourself a favour and don't rely on wikipedia to get your military facts.
Ex-Dragoon

Honestly I used CBC archival footage.... much more reliable then Wikipedia ;)
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Rider Pride on June 19, 2008, 19:53:08
Super wannabe sniper ninja doorkicking asskicker checking in.
:rofl:


ps- its not.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: PMedMoe on June 19, 2008, 21:45:27
:rofl:


ps- its not.


 I think he was being facetious.   ;)  And if not, at least, honest!  ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: wakingheart on June 19, 2008, 21:56:59
To tell you the truth I always kinda though Special Operations was essentially an occupation in professional suffering...lol
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: daftandbarmy on June 20, 2008, 01:12:51
To tell you the truth I always kinda though Special Operations was essentially an occupation in professional suffering...lol

The more special you are, the heavier the ruck and the further you walk  ;)
Title: Spartan blades CSOR sponsored knife?
Post by: Rider Pride on December 10, 2013, 19:22:36
A fighting knife sponsored by CSOR?

http://spartanbladesusa.com/Spartan-Harsey-Difensa
Title: Re: Spartan blades CSOR sponsored knife?
Post by: KevinB on December 13, 2013, 17:00:33
A fighting knife sponsored by CSOR?

http://spartanbladesusa.com/Spartan-Harsey-Difensa

Mark Carey of Spartan Blades is a former US SF guy and is based out of Bragg/Fayettville.  Maybe someone posted down South as a LO (or whatever) struck up a deal.

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: X_para76 on December 13, 2013, 21:22:50
My understanding as to why Jtf-2 was deployed to Afghanistan is even though it was outside the unit's mandate of domestic CT op's. DND had this unit with a multi-million dollar budget and couldn't defend the idea of not deploying them to Afghanistan to the government.  Which is somewhat understandable.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: PuckChaser on December 13, 2013, 21:28:08
Or their mission statement is counter-terrorism home and abroad, and they were conducting CT operations we'll never hear about.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: X_para76 on December 13, 2013, 21:34:21
Nevertheless I think it was difficult for DnD to justify their budget and existence without deploying them to Afghanistan.  Just MHO though.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: dangerboy on December 13, 2013, 21:35:57
Or their mission statement is counter-terrorism home and abroad, and they were conducting CT operations we'll never hear about.

Just to reinforce what PuckChaser said from the JTF website their mission is "JTF 2 protects the Canadian National Interest and combats terrorism at home and abroad." http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/operations-special-forces/jtf2.page? (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/operations-special-forces/jtf2.page?)
Title: Re: Spartan blades CSOR sponsored knife?
Post by: Rider Pride on December 14, 2013, 00:06:39
Mark Carey of Spartan Blades is a former US SF guy and is based out of Bragg/Fayettville.  Maybe someone posted down South as a LO (or whatever) struck up a deal.

There has been numerous times where CSOR dudes are working with the US teams in the last 3-4 yrs. Likely the idea got introduced somewhere along the way.

I like it; adds a modern twist on the historical records.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: KevinB on December 14, 2013, 15:10:50
It is a pretty cool knife.  I just don't have the cash to grab one  :'(
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Journeyman on December 14, 2013, 15:37:17
My understanding as to why Jtf-2 was deployed to Afghanistan is even though it was outside the unit's mandate of domestic CT op's. DND had this unit with a multi-million dollar budget and couldn't defend the idea of not deploying them to Afghanistan to the government.  Which is somewhat understandable.

1)  This is the CSOR thread, not JTF-2.
2)  JTF-2's mandate covers more than domestic CT.
3)  The government has many ways of addressing its foreign policy objectives, including deploying military forces.
4)  Individual units don't decide whether or not they want to deploy somewhere as a means of justifying their existence.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: recceguy on December 14, 2013, 15:53:44
My understanding as to why Jtf-2 was deployed to Afghanistan is even though it was outside the unit's mandate of domestic CT op's. DND had this unit with a multi-million dollar budget and couldn't defend the idea of not deploying them to Afghanistan to the government.  Which is somewhat understandable.

Into the eggnog a little early this year?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on December 14, 2013, 20:17:02
My understanding as to why Jtf-2 was deployed to Afghanistan is even though it was outside the unit's mandate of domestic CT op's. DND had this unit with a multi-million dollar budget and couldn't defend the idea of not deploying them to Afghanistan to the government.  Which is somewhat understandable.

Taken from CANSOFCOM website:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/operations-special-forces/index.page

Quote
Operational Tasks

CANSOFCOM has five strategic tasks:

Provide advice on special operations to the Chief of the Defence Staff and other CAF operational commanders;
Generate deployable, high readiness Special Operations Forces (SOF) capable of deploying as part of a broader CAF operation, or independently;
Conduct and command SOF operations on behalf of the CDS;
Continuously develop SOF capabilities and tactics; and
Maintain and promote relationships with Canadian security partners and allied special operations forces.
In support of these strategic tasks, CANSOFCOM personnel are organized, trained, equipped and always ready to conduct a wide variety of operational tasks. These tasks include:

Hostage rescue;
Direct action;
CBRN crisis response;
Sensitive site exploitation;
Combating Weapons of Mass Destruction;
Maritime special operations;
Support to non-combatant evacuation operations;
Special protection operations; and
Defence, diplomacy and military assistance.
The small size and unique capabilities of CANSOFCOM provide Canada with an agile, adaptive, and rapidly deployable military response.

Please be quiet already  :)

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: X_para76 on December 14, 2013, 21:10:55
Well I stand corrected! I appreciated the sarcasm from the usual cast of characters  as well as a few new people! 
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Journeyman on December 15, 2013, 00:45:47
I appreciated the sarcasm from the usual cast of characters  as well as a few new people!

For the record, I'd just like it noted that I deleted my sarcasm and just posted facts.   :nod:



The poster remains on <ignore> given his track-record of bumbling outside his lane and continued inability to post informed opinions.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: X_para76 on December 15, 2013, 09:41:44
 :salute:
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Jarnhamar on December 15, 2013, 11:22:34
That's a sexy knife but wouldn't they be worried about loosing their $500 knife if they miss when they throw it at a bad guy? 
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: daftandbarmy on December 15, 2013, 17:10:14
It is a pretty cool knife.  I just don't have the cash to grab one  :'(

Just get a job in any HQ from Bde level on up and you will be highly likely to collect one between the shoulder blades in due course.  ;D
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: KerryBlue on December 19, 2013, 12:43:53
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152060277359583.1073741856.100533039582&type=3

Has anyone seen these photos.... there's 2 different camo's being used by the CSOR operators both the american multi-cam and the white snow camo. Just curious about whether the men and white are Canadian or a foreign unit working with CSOR
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: George Wallace on December 19, 2013, 12:48:25
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152060277359583.1073741856.100533039582&type=3

Has anyone seen these photos.... there's 2 different camo's being used by the CSOR operators both the american multi-cam and the white snow camo. Just curious about whether the men and white are Canadian or a foreign unit working with CSOR

Seen those photos with captions.  Plus, I read the article.  Unfortunately, as you seem to have pointed out, there are no visible minorities in the photos.  Also, in the captions on the photos, and in the narrative, there is no mention of foreign troops involved.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: MCG on December 19, 2013, 13:05:36
... american multi-cam ...
Are they in American uniforms, or just multi-cam uniforms? 
There are 27 countries using multi-cam.  It is the new woodland pattern in that everybody is wearing it.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: MikeL on December 19, 2013, 13:08:55
Has anyone seen these photos.... there's 2 different camo's being used by the CSOR operators both the american multi-cam and the white snow camo.

Not everyone in those photos are CSOR.

Just curious about whether the men and white are Canadian or a foreign unit working with CSOR
The troops in the white/grey/black camo are members of 2 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group; they are most likely portraying a foreign unit for this exercise.  It is pretty common for troops doing OPFOR/COEFOR to be wearing non Canadian uniforms.

Here's a excerpt from the article saying who is taking part in this training.
Quote
As members of the Canadian Armed Forces, both CSOR and 2 CMBG train to maintain readiness in order to respond when asked to by the Government of Canada. This joint training enabled personnel from each organization to apply their skill sets and learn from each other.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: KerryBlue on December 19, 2013, 14:31:07
Are they in American uniforms, or just multi-cam uniforms? 
There are 27 countries using multi-cam.  It is the new woodland pattern in that everybody is wearing it.

You are correct MCG, I apologize for my error.

Not everyone in those photos are CSOR.
The troops in the white/grey/black camo are members of 2 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group; they are most likely portraying a foreign unit for this exercise.  It is pretty common for troops doing OPFOR/COEFOR to be wearing non Canadian uniforms.

Here's a excerpt from the article saying who is taking part in this training.


Sorry skeletor must have missed that somehow. Interesting to know about OPFOR/COEFOR wearing non Canadian uniforms.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Journeyman on December 19, 2013, 14:36:34
Interesting to know about OPFOR/COEFOR wearing non Canadian uniforms.
PXR points have noted that troops find it "troubling" to shoot at 'Canadian' soldiers; several units have gone to non-CADPAT for the bad guys.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: daftandbarmy on December 19, 2013, 14:46:35
I always preferred the torn t-shirt and cam cream look:
 8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJfEQQ_Tl_o
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: MCG on December 21, 2013, 12:16:50
More for the photo fans:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=710113765682608&set=pb.207409132619743.-2207520000.1387640856.&type=3&permPage=1

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=710113569015961&set=pb.207409132619743.-2207520000.1387640856.&type=3&permPage=1
Title: CSOR on CTV W5 - Saturday, April 5, 2014
Post by: Crispy Bacon on April 02, 2014, 19:03:17
Looks like an interesting story and some new access for the media.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/w5/
Title: Re: CSOR on CTV W5 - Saturday, April 5, 2014
Post by: Rider Pride on April 05, 2014, 11:20:58
More from CTV:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/w5/behind-the-secret-world-of-canada-s-covert-commandos-1.1761614#ixzz2y1IdmIjC

http://www.ctvnews.ca/w5/w5-transcript-q-a-with-a-canadian-special-forces-commander-1.1761709
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on April 05, 2014, 18:32:16
It's a bit long and too full of photos to post, but here (http://www.ctvnews.ca/w5/behind-the-secret-world-of-canada-s-covert-commandos-1.1761614) is a good article from our (Army.ca's) friend Mercedes Stephenson of CTV News.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Hatchet Man on April 05, 2014, 18:55:23
I hope the video does a better job of concealing the operator's faces.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Rider Pride on April 06, 2014, 09:17:53
For those who did not see the episode, videos posted here:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=319697&playlistId=1.1761339&binId=1.811589&playlistPageNum=1

The Robert Fowler interview was not played in its entirety. The video is 18 mins long, and worth a watch.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: recceguy on April 06, 2014, 12:31:48
For those who did not see the episode, videos posted here:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=319697&playlistId=1.1761339&binId=1.811589&playlistPageNum=1

The Robert Fowler interview was not played in its entirety. The video is 18 mins long, and worth a watch.

Good vid, RP. Thanks.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: village_idiot on April 15, 2014, 02:00:42
For those who did not see the episode, videos posted here:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=319697&playlistId=1.1761339&binId=1.811589&playlistPageNum=1

The Robert Fowler interview was not played in its entirety. The video is 18 mins long, and worth a watch.
Wow

Those shooting drills during part 1 were inspiring to watch. Those operators made it look so fluid and easy.
Title: Need some info on ranking and Csor
Post by: Singh647 on January 12, 2015, 20:38:05
Hi there,

I'm a student in college, I'm 20 and I'm really interested in joining the armed forces. I've heard that with a university degree you can become a captain, where the pay is good and there is a need for captains. unfortunately I'm in college and they don't take that into consideration. I'm assuming I'm gonna have to start from private and work my way up. I just wanna know if that's the case and how ranking works ( ranks, how long it takes to rank up and factors to increase my chances of moving up). I've also got my eyes on CSOR, that's my real goal. I want to get into Csor as quickly as possible. And my last question, I'm wondering if Csor operators make more money then regular infantry soldiers.
Title: Re: Need some info on ranking and Csor
Post by: kratz on January 12, 2015, 21:43:32
Have you read, comprehended and followed the rules of this site?

If you had, you would have spent more than a few minutes between registering and
posting a question that has been asked and answered so often nobody wants to bother answering your post.
Title: Re: Need some info on ranking and Csor
Post by: Loachman on January 12, 2015, 22:38:50
And with that said, I am locking this thread.

As you are a student in college, you know how to conduct basic research. Please use the Search Function, and read through some older threads.

Once you have done your homework, feel free to ask whatever questions are needed to fill in any gaps.
Title: Question about CSOR
Post by: methionine on January 30, 2015, 00:49:01
I just watched a short segment from a few years ago where it highlighted CSORs role in training African soldiers in the Sahara. I thought it was very interesting, a closer look at a realm of the Canadian Armed Forces that is often kept behind closed doors. I have a huge amount of respect for these guys, the amount of dedication that must go into to maintaining their level of fitness is unreal.

I decided to go to the CANSOFCOM website and check it out a little bit. Let me step back and say I have no ambitions to be spec ops, so its not a "I wanna be CSOR/JTF2 but haven't even started BMQ" type topic, but I did I decided to go to the CANSOFCOM website and check it out a little bit. It said any member of the Armed Forces can apply and. potentially, join CSOR. Although politically speaking, it is a nice sentiment, anyone have an idea as to the actual likelihood, or prevalence, of someone outside of Infantry/Combat arms making the regiment?

I ask this out of curiosity for how our special forces work.

I did do a search and found some topics/comments of similar vein but not a discussion (recent) addressing this question exactly.

Thanks,

Title: Re: Question about CSOR
Post by: Schindler's Lift on January 30, 2015, 01:02:46
Its been my understanding that representatives from virtually all trades are required in one capacity or another.  No doubt that is why the website stated "any member of the Armed Forces can apply".  Someone has to feed them, fix their vehicles, drive their vehicles, care for their administration and pay, fix them medically and many/most other functions both in garrison and while deployed.  I'm not sure there would be much need for hard Navy trades but I'm sure others here can elaborate further.
Title: Re: Question about CSOR
Post by: quadrapiper on January 30, 2015, 03:30:31
Seem to recall mention in a discussion on here (perhaps when the regiment was founded) of openings for boatswains, and remember seeing boat cox'n fitness requirements for (I think) CSOR posted at Naden gym.
Title: Re: Question about CSOR
Post by: SF2 on January 30, 2015, 08:09:55
Its been my understanding that representatives from virtually all trades are required in one capacity or another.  No doubt that is why the website stated "any member of the Armed Forces can apply".  Someone has to feed them, fix their vehicles, drive their vehicles, care for their administration and pay, fix them medically and many/most other functions both in garrison and while deployed.  I'm not sure there would be much need for hard Navy trades but I'm sure others here can elaborate further.

To expand a bit....anyone who would, by trade, be normally "feeding, fixing, or driving...and yes, even Navy" is more than welcome to apply as an SF operator.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Pickle Rick on January 30, 2015, 09:21:17
As mentioned, members from any trade in the CAF can try out for SF Operator. Many pers coming from a non Infantry or Combat Arms background have been successful.

As well, there are a number of support positions available, how ever you must be in a trade they require to apply.

Seem to recall mention in a discussion on here (perhaps when the regiment was founded) of openings for boatswains, and remember seeing boat cox'n fitness requirements for (I think) CSOR posted at Naden gym.

That would be JTF2, they have SO Coxswain positions; AFAIK, any trade can apply for that job.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Retired AF Guy on February 09, 2015, 21:37:53
Seems CSOR made an appearance at a recent Toronto Maple Leafs game celebrating CF Appreciation Night. Video here:

http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,117920.msg1351041/topicseen.html#new
Title: CSOR Canforgen message
Post by: Poacher434 on January 08, 2016, 18:04:20
I have done a search but to no avail and apologies if overlooekd.
I see that Canforgen messages need to be released for applications regarding CSOR SFOP. Does anybody know approximately when they release these messages?
I checked out the recent years of the CANFORGEN but found mostly officer employment, pres support, and reg force support.
Do these messages come out around the same time every year? If so when?
I have read somewhere they come out in the summer, but this seems too short of notice and a poor time of year (summer block leave / stand down) for the process to be completed within the CoC and by the member.

Any input?

Cheers.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Teager on January 09, 2016, 13:29:44
You can contact a CSOR recruiter.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/jobs-caf-unique/operations-special-forces-locate.page
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: eliminator on February 16, 2016, 20:53:03
Interesting:

Buff a pellet charged with a V-42 dagger proper between two wings Or, all within an annulus Sable edged, charged in fess on either side with two arrows in saltire and inscribed CANADIAN SPECIAL OPERATIONS REGIMENT • RÉGIMENT DES OPÉRATIONS SPÉCIALES DU CANADA in letters Or, ensigned by the Royal Crown proper and environed by two branches of maple leaves Or bound in base by a ribbon Gules surmounted by a scroll proper inscribed AUDEAMUS, a Latin word meaning “Let us dare”, in letters Sable, the whole between ten scrolls Sable edged and inscribed in letters Or, those to the dexter inscribed MONTE CAMINO; MONTE MAJO; ROME; ITALY, 1943-1944 / ITALIE, 1943-1944; NORTH-WEST EUROPE, 1944 / NORD-OUEST DE L’EUROPE, 1944; those to the sinister inscribed MONTE LA DIFENSA – MONTE LA REMETANEA; ANZIO; ADVANCE TO THE TIBER / PROGRESSION VERS LE TIBRE; SOUTHERN FRANCE / SUD DE LA FRANCE; AFGHANISTAN;

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freg.gg.ca%2Fheraldry%2Fpub-reg%2FProjectPics%2Fvi502_20070090_arms_CSORStandard.jpg&hash=63e997536f7afa4f0f896b2c5bd2ec0f)

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freg.gg.ca%2Fheraldry%2Fpub-reg%2FProjectPics%2Fvi502_20070090_fullb_CSORStandard.jpg&hash=c57023bb7285ba1852aecc8c58c1e65c)

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: George Wallace on February 16, 2016, 22:38:54
Interesting:

Buff a pellet charged with a V-42 dagger proper between two wings Or, all within an annulus Sable edged, charged in fess on either side with two arrows in saltire and inscribed CANADIAN SPECIAL OPERATIONS REGIMENT • RÉGIMENT DES OPÉRATIONS SPÉCIALES DU CANADA in letters Or, ensigned by the Royal Crown proper and environed by two branches of maple leaves Or bound in base by a ribbon Gules surmounted by a scroll proper inscribed AUDEAMUS, a Latin word meaning “Let us dare”, in letters Sable, the whole between ten scrolls Sable edged and inscribed in letters Or, those to the dexter inscribed MONTE CAMINO; MONTE MAJO; ROME; ITALY, 1943-1944 / ITALIE, 1943-1944; NORTH-WEST EUROPE, 1944 / NORD-OUEST DE L’EUROPE, 1944; those to the sinister inscribed MONTE LA DIFENSA – MONTE LA REMETANEA; ANZIO; ADVANCE TO THE TIBER / PROGRESSION VERS LE TIBRE; SOUTHERN FRANCE / SUD DE LA FRANCE; AFGHANISTAN;

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freg.gg.ca%2Fheraldry%2Fpub-reg%2FProjectPics%2Fvi502_20070090_arms_CSORStandard.jpg&hash=63e997536f7afa4f0f896b2c5bd2ec0f)

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freg.gg.ca%2Fheraldry%2Fpub-reg%2FProjectPics%2Fvi502_20070090_fullb_CSORStandard.jpg&hash=c57023bb7285ba1852aecc8c58c1e65c)

OK.  Their Battle Honours perpetuate the FSSF.  This has been known for some time now.

There is still one signature missing, and that is that of EIIR.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: PuckChaser on February 16, 2016, 23:08:39
Considering this year is the 10th Anniversary of CSOR, perhaps HM signature is forthcoming in time for it.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: MCG on February 17, 2016, 00:48:30
OK.  Their Battle Honours perpetuate the FSSF.  This has been known for some time now.

There is still one signature missing, and that is that of EIIR.
Would this require a royal signature?  Canada has patriated heraldry.   
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: George Wallace on February 17, 2016, 01:06:48
Every heraldic Crest, etc. for the CAF that I have seen has had the Royal Signature of approval.  If you look at the old prints of Cap Badges and Unit/Formation Crests, the original copies have the Royal Signature.  I would not be surprised that it would also be the case here for the design of the Colours.  (Of course I could be wrong.)

We can find a good write up on Battle Honours on the The Regimental Rogue (http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/grod_btlhnrs.htm) site that Michael O'Leary maintains.  They are approved by NDHQ. 


Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: MCG on February 17, 2016, 01:18:26
It is probably that most of what you have seen predates the establishment of the Canadian heraldic authority in 1988.  Have a look at these:

http://reg.gg.ca/heraldry/pub-reg/project-pic.asp?lang=e&ProjectID=1253&ProjectImageID=1624

http://reg.gg.ca/heraldry/pub-reg/project-pic.asp?lang=e&ProjectID=355&ProjectImageID=351

http://reg.gg.ca/heraldry/pub-reg/project-pic.asp?lang=e&ProjectID=2702&ProjectImageID=3882
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: MCG on February 17, 2016, 01:20:16
... And more to the topic here:  http://reg.gg.ca/heraldry/pub-reg/project.asp?lang=e&ProjectID=2700&ShowAll=1
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: George Wallace on February 17, 2016, 09:19:21
... And more to the topic here:  http://reg.gg.ca/heraldry/pub-reg/project.asp?lang=e&ProjectID=2700&ShowAll=1


Thanks for this update to changes.  (I have definitely fallen behind the times.)

I see that the Governor General is the approving authority now:

http://reg.gg.ca/heraldry/pub-reg/project-pic.asp?lang=e&ProjectID=2700&ProjectImageID=3877
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Dimsum on June 25, 2016, 16:33:07
Related to the above story:

Quote
Are you a ‘cognitive warrior?’ Canada’s special forces want you.

Canada’s special forces are looking for new members, but prepare to be tested — physically and mentally.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/06/25/special-forces-looking-for-cognitive-warrior.html
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: CCCB on June 25, 2016, 16:57:15
I have a question about the attached pic. Is this the way they are trained to carry people off buses?

"Special Ops medics work on a mock bus explosion."

CANSOF's TTPs are secret, anyone who answers you is either:

a) lying; or
b) committing a crime.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: CCCB on June 25, 2016, 17:16:53
Thanks. Those who know don't say and those who say don't know?

If you'll pardon me asking, what's a TTP? Unless it's a secret of course.

Wonder why they allowed the pic to be published?

It must be a very secret way of carrying people off buses. I've certainly never seen it done that way until today.  :)

I know you're being cute (for some reason), but for the uninitiated:

TTPs are Tactics, Techniques and Procedures.  I appreciate you might not have seen it done that way, but who ever decided to release the picture wasn't disclosing TTPs, they were disclosing a picture without much context.  The scenario could have been "the bus is on fire, get the casualties off!"  We don't know.

You asked!
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Jarnhamar on June 25, 2016, 19:29:16
I know you're being cute (for some reason), but for the uninitiated:

TTPs are Tactics, Techniques and Procedures.  I appreciate you might not have seen it done that way, but who ever decided to release the picture wasn't disclosing TTPs, they were disclosing a picture without much context.  The scenario could have been "the bus is on fire, get the casualties off!"  We don't know.

You asked!

Wow dude.
Just wow.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: LunchMeat on June 25, 2016, 19:54:53
Could simply be, if the bus contains a high set of stairs, it was simply the easiest way to get the casualty out.


Not everything is a big secret.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: dapaterson on June 25, 2016, 20:23:10
Or they want to move CSOR to Ottawa, and are teaching them how to take the bus to work.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Blackadder1916 on June 25, 2016, 21:11:30

It must be a very secret way of carrying people off buses. I've certainly never seen it done that way until today.  :)

The same thought crossed my mind as well.  It certainly violates the rules of body mechanics and patient handling I learned (and taught) over the years.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Old Sweat on June 25, 2016, 21:51:25
To speculate, we don't know the scenario.

Also, I suspect if the casualties were in a burning building, fully-trained and qualified firefighters and/or paramedics (sorry if I got the title wrong) may well carry out casualties by the most expedient method if that provided the best available means to get as many injured as possible clear of the danger.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Old Sweat on June 25, 2016, 21:54:22
But we don't know if the bus was burning or if there were other hazards present.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: PuckChaser on June 25, 2016, 22:07:39
If you watch the W5 special, it was a bus attack. Unless things have changed, I was taught on my TCCC (2012) to move casualties out of danger ASAP, with only head/spinal support if practical and the suspected mechanism of injury indicated such support was needed. Seems from the video that they were evacing from the bus, triage on stretchers and moving to CCP for care.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: daftandbarmy on June 26, 2016, 00:34:06
But we don't know if the bus was burning or if there were other hazards present.

Clearly, the scenario involved a party bus full of drunken Liberal MPs that ran out of gas near the local TV station in Alberta and they had to be evacuated by CSOR before the incident hit the 6 pm news. :)
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Brihard on June 26, 2016, 00:38:45
If you watch the W5 special, it was a bus attack. Unless things have changed, I was taught on my TCCC (2012) to move casualties out of danger ASAP, with only head/spinal support if practical and the suspected mechanism of injury indicated such support was needed. Seems from the video that they were evacing from the bus, triage on stretchers and moving to CCP for care.

I recall same from TCCC. A lot of things change in an active threat scenario- whether that be gunfire, secondary IEDs, fire, etc. While there is always a risk of aggravating existing injuries, the tactical situation may dictate that there is greater hazard in leaving casualties in situ. It may also be the case that limited supplies are on hand that would enable proper immobilization.

In civilian paramedicine, the situation will *nearly* always allow for the safe immobilization and proper extraction of a casualty where it is necessary. There is a reason that civilian paramedic qualifications are not an equivalency for tac med or TCCC. Even in the civilian world, active threat/shooter responses are increasingly emphasizing the employment of 'rescue teams' to extract casualties from a threat environment back to a CCP setting. The risk of further injury/death by gunfire can often outweigh the risk (relatively low) that prior gunfire has presented a danger of spinal injury. And in the scenario presented, a bus bombing, flames, secondary IEDs, and follow on ambush are likely deemed considerable risk.

Context is key.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Blackadder1916 on June 26, 2016, 01:20:00
. . .  move casualties out of danger ASAP, with only head/spinal support if practical and the suspected mechanism of injury indicated such support was needed. . . .


. . . allow for the safe immobilization and proper extraction of a casualty where it is necessary. . . . 

Context is key.

Yes , context is key.  But c-spine immobilization and immediate care in-situ is not what I (and I suspect mariomike) question.  It is the method of carry as performed by the soldier at the casualty's legs that has us puzzled.  The other soldier (at the head) is doing it right (or at least the way it was always done in the past); the one at the legs is doing it . . . . .I don't know what the **** he's doing or thinking.  Immediate removal of a casualty from danger - good.  But do it quick and do it as safely as possible.  Some basic principles of patient handling still apply - minimum handling and maximum protection, for the casualty and well as the rescuers.  If putting the casualty's legs on the rescuer's shoulders is a new protocol, so be it, but I don't see how that is an improvement over the legacy two-man fore and aft carry.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Brihard on June 26, 2016, 01:26:10
I would guess that with a lot of weighty and bulky kit on, and a bunch of broken people to get out of a really bad spot, while likely already tired, they go with what experience has shown works. It ain't gonna be pretty. You would likely see the same thing during the course of any conventional dismounted battle when crap circumstances necessitate moving casualties to a collection point with haste.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: LunchMeat on June 26, 2016, 03:05:54
ok. I get it. The bus is getting blown up, burned up, shot up, etc....
I never asked why no c-collar. I just found their lifting technique a little bit different than anything I had ever seen on the job. And that includes our Tactical, Heavy Rescue, Marine, CBRNE, PSU, ERU, ESU, MPU, etc. Paramedics.
I understand "CANSOF's TTPs are secret", so I won't ask why.  :)

While much of your lengthy and distinguished career is with a civilian service, you often forget that it time of war, many "Industry Standard" become secondary to simply getting people out of harms way.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Journeyman on June 26, 2016, 11:46:37
If putting the casualty's legs on the rescuer's shoulders is a new protocol, so be it, but I don't see how that is an improvement over the legacy two-man fore and aft carry.
Less fatiguing on the arms when you have a lot of casualties to move (or have a great distance to move, or still have a requirement for effective upper body strength once the 'move body phase' is complete, etc.... )
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Loachman on June 26, 2016, 12:15:19
Did you just let the secret out...?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: PuckChaser on June 26, 2016, 13:58:31
Less fatiguing on the arms when you have a lot of casualties to move (or have a great distance to move, or still have a requirement for effective upper body strength once the 'move body phase' is complete, etc.... )
Hands would be free to engage threats as well, and on the shoulders might keep the patient more level coming down the steep bus stairs. Lots of reasons to do it.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: kkwd on June 26, 2016, 14:10:51
I guess this is a technique used elsewhere.

http://www.defense.gov/Media/Photo-Gallery?igphoto=2001551427 (http://www.defense.gov/Media/Photo-Gallery?igphoto=2001551427)
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: mariomike on June 26, 2016, 14:29:18
http://www.defense.gov/Media/Photo-Gallery?igphoto=2001551427 (http://www.defense.gov/Media/Photo-Gallery?igphoto=2001551427)

 :goodpost:

Milpoints inbound.

The top pic shows empty stretchers set up and in position at the door of the bus. Stretchers are ready and waiting to receive casualties as rescuers step off the stairs and out the door.*
At least one of those stretchers has already received a casualty, and is being taken away by rescuers.

* Fortunately, in spite of the "mock bus explosion" ( as it says in the caption ), the door is still operational.

The bottom pic posted by kkwd shows rescuers, with no stretcher available.

With no stretcher available,  legs over shoulders patient transport would be a viable alternative.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: daftandbarmy on June 26, 2016, 19:28:24
This is how we learned to do casualty carries... at about 1.47. Of course if the cas has CSpine issues they're doomed with this technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kjXUQoW1HQ


Try not to throw up on the instructors' boots though, it's not cricket.


Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Spencer100 on June 27, 2016, 18:27:49
After watching the show and seeing the screen shots. Everyone is wearing a different uniform then arid cadpat.  Why the change? 
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Ludoc on June 27, 2016, 19:06:27
Look Cool Factor
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: LunchMeat on June 27, 2016, 20:08:51
After watching the show and seeing the screen shots. Everyone is wearing a different uniform then arid cadpat.  Why the change?

CSOR has been using Multicam for many years, even when everyone else was using Arid CADPAT. It also brings them closer in line to other Special Operations Forces of our allies.

Multicam is much more effective multi-environment camouflage.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: daftandbarmy on June 27, 2016, 23:56:13
CSOR has been using Multicam for many years, even when everyone else was using Arid CADPAT. It also brings them closer in line to other Special Operations Forces of our allies.

Multicam is much more effective multi-environment camouflage.

Which is why we have Cadpat, right? ;)
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: PuckChaser on June 28, 2016, 00:01:19
Which is why we have Cadpat, right? ;)

Carrying multiple types of uniform doesn't really sound light or cost effective, especially since the CA can barely kit out its own soldiers with CADPAT (TW) uniforms that aren't falling apart or made like a moo-moo.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: dapaterson on June 28, 2016, 00:11:43
Which is why we have Cadpat, right? ;)

Tests of patterns have been largely inconclusive; as with many things military, the subjective opinion of the senior person present is taken as "proof".

If you'd care to look at a large number of designs, there's always https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_clothing_camouflage_patterns
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: LunchMeat on June 28, 2016, 02:29:30
Which is why we have Cadpat, right? ;)

CADPAT is all political and has nothing to do with being effective. TW is great for some Canadian environments, and AR is great for others. Having witnessed Multicam at work first hand in Canada, I don't understand why we haven't adopted it service wide other than money and Canada's undying need to be "unique" rather than actually supply us with effective uniforms, equipment, vehicles, etc. 

Same reason US had UCP for so long and after only a few years in both Iraq and A'stan, adopted Multicam as it is much, much more effective in a wide variety of environments.

Carrying multiple types of uniform doesn't really sound light or cost effective, especially since the CA can barely kit out its own soldiers with CADPAT (TW) uniforms that aren't falling apart or made like a moo-moo.

Also, this.  :salute:

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Underway on June 28, 2016, 10:12:44
CADPAT is all political and has nothing to do with being effective.

CADPAT when it came out was a revolutionary design.  DRDC studies showed that with CADPAT compared to the old olive greens, and with the at the time US army camo, showed a 20-30% reduction in the distance that an observer needed to be before they sighted the wearer.  The IR signature reduction was something that no one had at the time either.

The US Marine Corps signed up with their own version fairly quickly.

If it has been surpassed by new camouflage models (mainly ones that don't contain any black in them) then that's fine.  But you can't say the CADPAT was all political and not effective.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: LunchMeat on June 28, 2016, 10:49:55
CADPAT when it came out was a revolutionary design.  DRDC studies showed that with CADPAT compared to the old olive greens, and with the at the time US army camo, showed a 20-30% reduction in the distance that an observer needed to be before they sighted the wearer.  The IR signature reduction was something that no one had at the time either.

The US Marine Corps signed up with their own version fairly quickly.

If it has been surpassed by new camouflage models (mainly ones that don't contain any black in them) then that's fine.  But you can't say the CADPAT was all political and not effective.

I understand that in it's inception it was revolutionary, but now that it has been nearly 2 decades since it's been in service.

Now, it's not so effective for the types of situations we and our allies are getting into. When you need quick adaptability from woodland, grassland, desert, to urban; our two very exclusive uniform patterns are not up to par.

CADPAT TW is great for spring time, in the mountains and foothills, in Canadian environment and garrison. CADPAT AR is great for strict desert, sand, and very light brown/tan environments.

But it doesn't cover the in betweens and diverse biomes. Multicam and it's derivatives do much better, and for our safety and effectiveness, to ignore the fact is purely political. Keeping jobs in the hometown of some former DND bureaucrat/Ret'd general.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Journeyman on June 28, 2016, 11:02:14
Keeping jobs in the hometown of some former DND bureaucrat/Ret'd general.
Can you explain?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Dimsum on June 28, 2016, 11:29:12
But it doesn't cover the in betweens and diverse biomes. Multicam and it's derivatives do much better, and for our safety and effectiveness, to ignore the fact is purely political. Keeping jobs in the hometown of some former DND bureaucrat/Ret'd general.

Short of some constantly-changing chameleon suit, no one pattern can provide the best cover for everything - Multicam wouldn't work that well in the snow, for example.  So, what you're really suggesting is to have 5 patterns (CADPAT TW for the spring/fall, AR for desert, MC for the "in betweens", potentially a winter pattern for snow and an urban pattern), not to replace all with MC. 
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: PPCLI Guy on June 28, 2016, 11:34:42
Multicam and it's derivatives do much better, and for our safety and effectiveness, to ignore the fact is purely political. Keeping jobs in the hometown of some former DND bureaucrat/Ret'd general.

I'm curious - which hometown, and which Ret'd General?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: LunchMeat on June 28, 2016, 11:38:50
I'm curious - which hometown, and which Ret'd General?

No idea, possibly none,  hence why I said "some".

Could be said about our boot fiasco and other piss-poor procurement.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Journeyman on June 28, 2016, 11:44:11
No idea, possibly none,  hence why I said "some".

Could be said about our boot fiasco and other piss-poor procurement.
        ::)
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: PPCLI Guy on June 28, 2016, 11:45:15
No idea, possibly none,  hence why I said "some".

Could be said about our boot fiasco and other piss-poor procurement.

So, a random slur without basis?  A completely uninformed comment? 

Thanks for the input.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: LunchMeat on June 28, 2016, 12:14:46
Short of some constantly-changing chameleon suit, no one pattern can provide the best cover for everything - Multicam wouldn't work that well in the snow, for example.  So, what you're really suggesting is to have 5 patterns (CADPAT TW for the spring/fall, AR for desert, MC for the "in betweens", potentially a winter pattern for snow and an urban pattern), not to replace all with MC.

Other than the Winter Whites, we could reduce our compliment down to a single uniform. MC/Scorpion is very versatile.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Spencer100 on June 28, 2016, 16:03:50
URGH! 

The whole things sounds dumb to me.  Why have a whole different uniform?  If it works for the CSOR it should work for the rest of the forces? no?

Or is it we are special deal?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Underway on June 28, 2016, 16:50:24
URGH! 

The whole things sounds dumb to me.  Why have a whole different uniform?  If it works for the CSOR it should work for the rest of the forces? no?

Or is it we are special deal?

CSOFCOM pers often wear US uniforms/camo for operational security.  That's one of the main reasons for the differences.  I've personally worked with and specifically asked about their choice of gear.  I was told it is often to confuse or misdirect about who is actually operating in the area.  If you wear US camo the enemy (and friends) assume you are a US unit, especially at a distance.  The SOF units have or can get multiple types of camo relatively quickly and try out new stuff.  They also use no-name brand pattern camo that isn't really a particular nations style once again for operational security.  It's not automatically that our stuff is the worst, though I understand the typical Canadian military reflex to think that.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: technophile on June 28, 2016, 18:53:38
CSOFCOM pers
Nice try.

Not a single line in your post is based on fact.

Multicam was chosen after user trials.  An open and competitive procurement was initiated for a vendor to produce MC uniforms with specific design characteristics based on user requirements and feedback.










Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Jarnhamar on June 28, 2016, 19:46:27
CADPAT is all political and has nothing to do with being effective
. TW is great  for some Canadian environments, and AR is great for others.


So which is it?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: LunchMeat on June 28, 2016, 19:52:19
CSOFCOM pers often wear US uniforms/camo for operational security.  That's one of the main reasons for the differences.  I've personally worked with and specifically asked about their choice of gear.  I was told it is often to confuse or misdirect about who is actually operating in the area.  If you wear US camo the enemy (and friends) assume you are a US unit, especially at a distance.  The SOF units have or can get multiple types of camo relatively quickly and try out new stuff.  They also use no-name brand pattern camo that isn't really a particular nations style once again for operational security.  It's not automatically that our stuff is the worst, though I understand the typical Canadian military reflex to think that.

I'll have to brush up on my Geneva/Hague Conventions and LOAC, but isn't there something about it being illegal for signatory nations to adorn misleading insignia/accouterments/etc?

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: expwor on June 28, 2016, 20:32:57
More thinking out loud...I know, scary LOL
But couldn't the green CADPAT be used for Spring/Summer camouflage
And the arid region CADPAT be used both for arid environment and also as a fall camouflage
For winter, use what we used when I was in 1979-1981...white nylon overcoat worn over the parka and white nylon pants worn over snow pants
As for urban environments, what exactly could be worn to blend in. If anything would clothing that allows a soldier to blend in looking more like he belongs there be better, rather than camouflaging him to look like a building...if that makes sense
Anyhow what would I know...what we wore was olive drab combats year round, and in winter covered up in white.  Although our helmets had reversible green/brown camouflage cover

Tom
 
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: the 48th regulator on June 28, 2016, 20:36:55
Do they use Velcro on their pockets now, or buttons?

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: LunchMeat on June 28, 2016, 20:46:11
Do they use Velcro on their pockets now, or buttons?

Americans are almost all zippers, buttons. Very little velcro that requires frequent access.

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: the 48th regulator on June 28, 2016, 20:47:21
Americans are almost all zippers, buttons. Very little velcro that requires frequent access.

Slick
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: daftandbarmy on June 28, 2016, 21:04:34
Slick

And quieter, which is a life skill during certain combat arms type scenarios

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSK3maq8Cyk
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: LunchMeat on June 28, 2016, 21:21:17
And quieter, which is a life skill during certain combat arms type scenarios

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSK3maq8Cyk

I love that video, gets me every time.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: the 48th regulator on June 28, 2016, 21:57:55
And quieter, which is a life skill during certain combat arms type scenarios

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSK3maq8Cyk

I stand corrected, that video is slick.

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: RedCardOP on July 09, 2016, 19:38:12
Does anyone know the duration of a rotation in CSOR? What I mean is after serving you initial minimum which is 3 years I believe, would the kick you back out to your original regiment or could you remain inside as long as you were physically capable to remain operational. Since it seems a bit strange to me to select and train you and spend considerable money on you only to kick you out for some new guy after 3 years.

(I searched through all (okay, most...) of the 22 pages of this thread as well as the search function and wasn't able to find an answer.)
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: PuckChaser on July 09, 2016, 20:03:14
SF Op is a trade now, AFAIK that trade only has one place to work, CSOR.

Judging by the constant recruiting messages for supporters, I'm guessing those trades get moved out in the same 3-5 window that everyone else can expect to be moved around at. Longer if you can hide.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Pickle Rick on July 09, 2016, 20:51:10
SF Op is a trade now, AFAIK that trade only has one place to work, CSOR.

There's also CSOTC across the base.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: RedCardOP on July 09, 2016, 22:48:40
Is their a possibility of lengthening your stay or returning in a later point in time?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: CBH99 on July 10, 2016, 00:29:30
Thats actually a very good question RedCardOP,

With the huge amount of time and money spent training operators in the SOF world, I would think the SOF community would want to hold onto their members for as long as possible.  I'm curious as to the answer as well - and, like the OP, did a fair amount of research & couldn't find an answer.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Spectrum on July 10, 2016, 00:32:44
Maybe, just maybe, they can lowball your PERs so you don't get promoted out of a job...if they like you.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: RedCardOP on July 10, 2016, 02:51:40
Maybe, just maybe, they can lowball your PERs so you don't get promoted out of a job...if they like you.

 >:D

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Pickle Rick on July 10, 2016, 08:56:26
There are Operators in the Regiment who have been there since the first few SOBQ(now called SFC) courses.  So no, after 3 years you won't be posted out. How ever, I would imagine the standards expected of its members would be high.  You probably wouldn't last long in the unit if you fail a drug test, or are arrested for DUI, etc.


There is no officer SF Op trade, so it may be more difficult for them to make a career within the regiment due to career progression and career managers. However, just because they get posted out doesn't mean they can't return.

Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on July 10, 2016, 10:15:33
There are Operators in the Regiment who have been there since the first few SOBQ(now called SFC) courses.  So no, after 3 years you won't be posted out. How ever, I would imagine the standards expected of its members would be high.  I would think you wouldn't last long in the unit if you fail a drug test, or are arrested for DUI, etc.


There is no officer SF Op trade, so it may be more difficult for them to make a career within the regiment due to career progression and career managers. However, just because they get posted out doesn't mean they can't return.

No SF Op trade for officers; however, CANSOF officers now have their own career manager so progression is not a problem.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: daftandbarmy on July 11, 2016, 19:40:54
There are Operators in the Regiment who have been there since the first few SOBQ(now called SFC) courses.  So no, after 3 years you won't be posted out. How ever, I would imagine the standards expected of its members would be high.  You probably wouldn't last long in the unit if you fail a drug test, or are arrested for DUI, etc.

.... or are injured/ burn out/ go crazy....  just like the rest of the Infantry ;)
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: dapaterson on July 11, 2016, 20:41:58
There are increasing considerations for ERE employment of personnel, even in trades deemed specialist, to avoid burn-out and to provide a better rounder career trajectory for those with potential for senior or key appointments.

Of course, postings outside the SOF community do not include the SOF allowances, so some pers are not interested.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: X_para76 on July 27, 2016, 22:09:52
There are increasing considerations for ERE employment of personnel, even in trades deemed specialist, to avoid burn-out and to provide a better rounder career trajectory for those with potential for senior or key appointments.

Of course, postings outside the SOF community do not include the SOF allowances, so some pers are not interested.

Moreover, if you're an Operator but are posted out of the unit you will lose your Operator pay.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: MCG on July 27, 2016, 22:13:42
Moreover, if you're an Operator but are posted out of the unit you will lose your Operator pay.
That is what he said.
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: RussTheMann on July 28, 2016, 04:20:49
No SF Op trade for officers; however, CANSOF officers now have their own career manager so progression is not a problem.
what do you mean by this? if you went as an operator but as an officer for selection, what would your duties be?
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: Pickle Rick on July 28, 2016, 09:24:35
what do you mean by this? if you went as an operator but as an officer for selection, what would your duties be?

If you are an officer and make it through selection and SFC you would be employed as an Officer/Operator(Platoon Commander, etc) but your MOSID would not change. 
Title: Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
Post by: RussTheMann on July 29, 2016, 00:22:21
If you are an officer and make it through selection and SFC you would be employed as an Officer/Operator(Platoon Commander, etc) but your MOSID would not change. 


ooh okay so youre still an operator just a team leader right? at least while you're a junior officer (Lt(N) or Capt.)?