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Air-Force.ca => Aircrew Trades => Topic started by: RD on January 23, 2003, 10:07:00

Title: All Things Flight Engineer (merged)
Post by: RD on January 23, 2003, 10:07:00
Hey,
Does anyone know what a Flight Engineer does? And how do you become one?
Title: Re: Flight Engineer
Post by: Ditch on January 23, 2003, 13:49:00
You cannot join the CF to become a Flight Engineer, much like SAR Techs or JTF, you have to transfer to that trade from within.

As to what they do.....  Every aircraft in the CF flight has at least one FE (flight engineer) except of course for our single-man cockpit aircraft (ie. CF-18, CT-156, etc)  Their job is to ensure that the aircraft is flight-worthy and ready to go. They also help with in flight maintenance of aircraft ancillaries (ie fuel balancing, electrical systems) as well as monitoring the engine gauges.  The FE‘s that you find on board the CC-130 Hercules or CP-140 Aurora are the most senior FE‘s in the CF.  Typical FE‘s start out as Corporal‘s on the Griffon or other smaller aircraft.  In order to be a Herc/Aurora FE, you have to be a Sergeant.  
Good trade to get into, very technical, yet also operational active.

Oh, and one last thing... You‘ll have to join the airforce in order to be one...!   :D
Title: Re: Flight Engineer
Post by: RD on January 23, 2003, 15:37:00
Wow.  Thanks for the detailed information.  But one more thing. What position do I apply for?
Example: to be a Combat Diver you have to be a Field Engineer.
Title: Re: Flight Engineer
Post by: RD on January 23, 2003, 15:37:00
Wow.  Thanks for the detailed information.  But one more thing. What position do I apply for?
Example: to be a Combat Diver you have to be a Field Engineer.
Title: Re: Flight Engineer
Post by: RD on January 23, 2003, 15:55:00
Wow.  Thanks for the detailed information.  But one more thing. What position do I apply for?
Example: to be a Combat Diver you have to be a Field Engineer.
Title: Re: Flight Engineer
Post by: Ditch on January 23, 2003, 19:58:00
Try a technical trade like Airframe Technician, good start...
Title: Re: Flight Engineer
Post by: RD on January 23, 2003, 20:33:00
Thanks for the help.  I appreciate your help guys.
Sorry about the accidental spam.
Title: Flight Engineers
Post by: bobthebui|der on December 29, 2004, 00:22:26
First off, Mods feel free to throw this in the recruiting forum. reason I put this here, is Im leaning more towards info on the trade, rather than joining it. i did a search, but came up with a big goose egg.

I have been in Griffons before, and couldnt help but notice the fellow sitting in the back with me. I believe his job title is "Flight Engineer" or possibly "technician". Could someone please set me straight?

The trade wasnt on the DND site, or at least i didnt find anything. All im really looking for is what exactly these guys do, how demanding such a job is and whether or not anyone here is in fact one. I couldnt help but be fascinated by this mans job, I almost felt jealous when we dropped off. Kinda like at the fair, getting kicked off the ride and having you're buddies get an extra turn.  :D
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: Inch on December 29, 2004, 12:04:28
Flight Engineer is the name of the trade. The reason you didn't find any info on the recruiting site is the same reason that you don't find info on SAR Techs or AESOps, it's a remuster only trade and at that, the only people that can remuster to FE are AVN techs.

The FEs do a lot of the calculations and aircraft field inspections. They'll do weight and balance calcs, they're the ground crew for the starts (for Griffons anyway), and they do most of the preflight and post flight inspections. Since they're all former AVN techs, they're quite knowledgeable about the aircraft and it's systems. They can provide a better analysis of a problem since they'll know the machine far better than the front enders can. We don't have FEs in the Sea Kings so the pilots end up doing all that stuff. Zoomie may be able to provide a little insight from the fixed wing world on what they do since the Auroras, Hercs and I believe the Buffs all have FEs as well.

That about sums it up, oh yeah, one more thing...... They're also the door gunners on the Griffons! GET SOME!
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: bobthebui|der on December 29, 2004, 13:59:04
Thanks Inch, all the info I was looking for.
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: aesop081 on December 30, 2004, 19:00:31
I did my OJT at 403 sqn with the griffon FE's and did the FE course ground school with them.   Its a pretty good trade.   You have to be an AVN tech for 6 years before you can OT to this occupation.   Once selected you do the basic FE course in trenton, then you have to do the AVN and AVS courses for the aircraft you are going to fly then the on-type flying course. the course that was running in gagetown when i was there started with 3 students and graduated one !
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: skyd1vr on June 13, 2007, 13:55:47
the course that was running in gagetown when i was there started with 3 students and graduated one !

Why? Is it that difficult a course?
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: mover1 on June 13, 2007, 14:22:23
With  the new A/C that are coming out we hear rumours and rumblings from both the FE and the Nav trades. Neither the C-17 not the C-130J are slotted to have anyone in those positions. Basically its a three man crew Pilot, Co-pilot and Loadmaster.

Are there any rumours of what these trades are doing to keep their empires? I know the  Traffic Tech trade has done a good job at keeping the loadie positions safe for now, however what does the future hold.

I for one would like to keep the loadie position a 933 trade. But that's just me. (hey I am a 933  ;) ) And I would hate to see these positions taken away just to keep navs employed.
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: skyd1vr on June 13, 2007, 14:29:15
Well, still on the official rumor side of things. I have two good friends that are Sgt FE's, one on hercs in Trenton. The other just leaving hercs in winnipeg for Comox.

Both say word from the top is that no FE's are loaded on C17's but the loadmaster trade is low on numbers, so FE's may fill Loadie positions. One says the FE is a dying trade. The other says not in our career span. Rotary wing still needs someone to sit at the gun in the back and the Chinooks are better crewed with someone in the back. The tech crewman thing doesn't work well because many techs will say its not in their pay grade or job description to ride in the back manning a gun.

Mover1, how's your hat? lol. :salute:
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: RiggerFE on June 13, 2007, 15:01:04
On the Buff and Twin Otter there are no loadies. The FE does all those jobs, load planning, cargo loading and unloading, cargo securing, weight & balance, pax handling, dangerous cargo, meal preps etc... The point is that FEs do have the skill set to do those jobs, plus we bring A/C servicing and maintenance to the table as well as the maintenance realease authority qualification. The cockpit / checklist handling is just one of the jobs we do. With the new A/C coming on line the job of the FE in the cockpit is diminishing if not disappearing altogether. In those remote locations away from MOBs someones going to have to fuel, check and carry out minor repairs on these new A/C. There are always those occasions when that third set eyes/hands in the cockpit are invaluable i.e. emergencies, low level nav, etc...
As for how these new A/C are going to be manned is for higher HQ to decide, but I think FEs bring a lot to bring to the table.
 
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: mover1 on June 13, 2007, 15:28:29
RR my hat needs a washin'.  :-X


Our career shop is pumping out aircrew messages like madmen. Just talking to one of the guys who went C-17 and it looks like the 3 man crew is the way its going to go. Loadie is trained in light servicing and checklists, but mostly its all done by computer.

He also mentioned that some countries are sending Admin Clerks to do the training.
 Either way. I have my message in my hand. So I am happy  ;D

Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: C1Dirty on June 20, 2007, 08:46:12
There was a rumour a couple of months ago that they were going to load a couple of FE's onto the C17 Loadmaster Course.  I haven't really heard anything since.  The arguement was that the position was not a pure LM or FE but more of a flight-master or load-engineer.  IMO, the more the merrier.
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: skyd1vr on June 20, 2007, 10:38:28
The FE CM was through winterpeg this week and confirmed that intent is to load Cpl FE's on the C17 in an LM, servicing position. Wonder how you'd get your wings then, if it's your first FE post.
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: RandomAVS on March 15, 2008, 11:37:19
I was talking to the recruiting center, they said that AVS can also now become FE, same as AVN. Anyone shed any light on this ?

And yeah, Im bumping a old post :p
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: mover1 on March 15, 2008, 18:49:21
Doing the C-17 course right now. And there is no requirement on this thing for an FE.
Most of the training has been focused on load restraint and Emergency procedures. A little background on hydraulics and electrical, plus some of the systems. However its mostly geared to what we use in the back of the A/C. 
The position on the plane is mostly loadie in nature and employing a perfectly good 500 series tech would be a waste of a trained body that could be used somewhere else.
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: kj_gully on March 16, 2008, 00:24:48
Maybe not now when they are shiny out of the box brand new, but give them a few hard landings, a couple fod incidents, a few changes in paint scheme, and I think the technical expertise of the FE will be missed. No-one does as thorough a walk around as an FE
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: mr peabody on March 16, 2008, 02:18:17
I was talking to the recruiting center, they said that AVS can also now become FE, same as AVN. Anyone shed any light on this ?

And yeah, Im bumping a old post :p

This has been floating around for a while now; I haven't heard anything about it at work, but I'd expect the recruiting centre to know.

It was touched upon in this thread.  http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,59979.0.html
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: RiggerFE on March 16, 2008, 11:20:38
At this point it is still only AVN techs being selected. The basic course is predicated on all candidates having a solid back ground in AVN. The course would have to completely redone for AVS techs. The only exceptions I have heard of, are old IE techs that went AVS. They still met the requirement for the trade before amalgamation took place.
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: FltEngr on March 27, 2009, 01:43:45
Expect some big changes coming up summer 2009 in regards to the Flight Engineer trade intake. Lot's of rumours kicking around, the Tiger team will decide of our future. I can see the trade opening its doors to the "direct entry" concept especially for qualified AME personnel. I also heard that AVS will also be a go.
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: mover1 on March 30, 2009, 23:35:59
Heard it the rumour that FE was going to be like loadie and that they were using the TFC Tech trade as a model...Come into it. Fly around for a couple af years then right back to your parent trade.
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: HercFE on March 31, 2009, 19:04:42
Those who are currently FEs will always be FEs, The new guys may be called something else. I only think this model will work on the J Hercs and C-17 and maybe the new SAR A/C. The Helo guys take a lot of time and effort to upgrade I don't think it would be wise to send them back to the floor after getting them up to speed flying. Perhaps reversing the current progression format might work, start on a J Herc and then progress to the Helo world. Start off as a servicing/ "C" level release guy, help the loadie when he needs it, but with none or very limited inflight duties. After some time on the heavies you could move onto the Helos for some real FE work.

Time will tell, and as long as we have CP 140 and the E/H Hercs we will still require FEs
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: skyd1vr on April 11, 2009, 20:45:25
Heard it the rumour that FE was going to be like loadie and that they were using the TFC Tech trade as a model...Come into it. Fly around for a couple af years then right back to your parent trade.

the 'abbot report' suggests the above along with advising our allies we no longer have flight engineers to offer for NATO ops and suggest the reason d'atre of FE's was to provide senior NCO's to push buttons whilst sitting in a seat on a multi engine prop jobs between two officers....lol . It says something along the lines of continuing to use 'tech crewman' (which isn't a military trade) and just throwing them on and off airplanes as ordered like is not working right now on some platform

then again, the said paper also states work like pre and post flight servicing, hoisting, weight and balance, throwing sar techs out the back etc are 'generic aircrew functions'. i say good..let pilots in training do it while us experienced airmen continue to specialize in that which most don't understand or don't want to do.

The CAS reply was something like the abbot and costello report is  one suggestion but not one that is popular or generally accepted.
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: skyd1vr on April 11, 2009, 22:14:29
Expect some big changes coming up summer 2009 in regards to the Flight Engineer trade intake. Lot's of rumours kicking around, the Tiger team will decide of our future. I can see the trade opening its doors to the "direct entry" concept especially for qualified AME personnel. I also heard that AVS will also be a go.

I've read/heard the same. It'll be a tough one.
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: FltEngr on April 18, 2009, 14:44:09
I've read/heard the same. It'll be a tough one.

I feel positive about it! It can't be a bad thing.
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: skyd1vr on April 18, 2009, 15:26:22
hope so..i just got my OT..if i can get on the AMT before summer i should be on the aug course...
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: SAR.FE on May 12, 2009, 21:57:44
You can get on the basic course with a waiver for the AMT so don't think it a roadblock
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: FltEngr on May 14, 2009, 18:48:49
That's exactly what happenned to me. The chamber in Winnipeg was undergoing maintanance, most of the guys on course had a waiver. No worries, as long as you have it done before your OTU.
Title: Flight Engineers
Post by: AAF on June 25, 2010, 12:03:03
Hey Everyone, just a question.

I am headed to Borden, to sit until my AVN course. My ultimate goal is to be a FE. And i just want to be pointeded in the general direction.

Knowing that there are only FEs on the Aurora, Herc-Hs, and most of the helos. Do I have to lean towards working on those aircraft for the 5 years before my OT or can i do work on aircraft say the hornet and still be eligible to be and FE?


Thanks
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: aesop081 on June 25, 2010, 22:11:45
Any aircraft will do. Most of the FEs i fly with came from a variety of backgrounds.
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: HercFE on June 26, 2010, 10:11:23
CDN  Aviator is correct, you can work on any airframe and be taken into the trade. That been said there is a move afoot to to train techs on an airframe and then keep them on the same aircraft as as FEs(including the Hec and Aurora). There is no time line or training plan for this yet, still in the good idea stage. This will all come to realism with the re-vitalization of the trade plan that is being developed.
Also the Twin-Otter and Buffalo have FEs on them as well.
Title: Re: Flight Engineer
Post by: Wood973 on July 01, 2010, 12:31:55
Sorry to bring up a dead thread but it's about the same topic.

I'm thinking of putting in an OT (4 yrs RCR) and one of they jobs I'm interested in is a rotary FE.  I know it's not a "trade" but that's my final goal.

My question is, what's the likely hood of becoming a FE?  Is it a highly desirable job with lots of competition?  What's the time frame once OTing to becoming a FE?

Also is there any FE from 427 that might be willing to meet up with me to give me some first hand knowledge?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Flight Engineer
Post by: niceasdrhuxtable on July 01, 2010, 12:44:35
I'm thinking of putting in an OT (4 yrs RCR) and one of they jobs I'm interested in is a rotary FE.  I know it's not a "trade" but that's my final goal.

My question is, what's the likely hood of becoming a FE?  Is it a highly desirable job with lots of competition?  What's the time frame once OTing to becoming a FE?

You'll have to OT to an aircraft technician MOC first before you can try to be an FE.
Title: Re: Flight Engineer
Post by: aesop081 on July 01, 2010, 12:48:51
......and after you become a tech, you will have to put in a few years before you can OT.
Title: Re: Flight Engineer
Post by: Wood973 on July 01, 2010, 18:55:10
Yes I realize I need to be an aircraft tech and a few years in.  I'm looking to find out some more detailed info, preferably from someone who's done it.
Title: Flight Engineers
Post by: Donny on June 05, 2012, 07:41:17
I heard they are going to add Flight Engineers on C130j models. Aperantly they wanted to reduce the work load for pilots.
Is this true?
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: HercFE on June 05, 2012, 17:28:26
If it is it has been held close as there has been no rumors of this on the legacy side of the house. I don't know if there is even the man power in trade to handle the J fleet right now.
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: fireman1867 on June 05, 2012, 18:22:18
I'd take an FE on any airframe - especially one who loves the North ;)

This would be great news if true!
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: AAF on July 15, 2012, 21:50:14
I work with the Js in trenton, and the only thing right now is we have TCMs (tech crewman). They are still mechanics on the floor when they aren`t flying on missions that have to land away from trenton, where the TCM does basic LM jobs too during the flight. If the take-off and landing are back in trenton with no other landings where the engines will be shutdown, there is no need for a TCM.

And as far as the near future goes, there will be no FEs on board the aircraft.
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: SuperAVS on October 07, 2012, 16:32:02
There is no talk of FEs on the J. As for reducing pilot workload.....well, the computer already does that.
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: dh101 on November 18, 2013, 23:18:36
Quick question, sorry to bring this post back from the grave, but can't really find any other posts regarding FE's. Is it only AVN Tech that can transfer over to FE, or can other aircraft tech trades such as AWS Tech, or ACS Tech, AVS tech, etc go into FE. I'm wondering specifically about AWS tech
Title: Re: Flight Engineers
Post by: ERR on November 18, 2013, 23:38:41
OT from AVN and AVS
Title: Posting Selection
Post by: krimynal on October 06, 2016, 20:59:07
Hello everyone ,
Haven't been over here lately as much as I wanted to!
So I am finally in Borden doing Common Core and starting my AVN Course in January !! Yeah me !

I had a question for people with experience here .....
So my goal is to go Flight Engineer , that's like my go to thing.  But first I got to to AVN ( which I am very happy about ).  I really enjoy Borden and the surroundings , I enjoy the base itself too.  My question tho is this one :

What's the best route in order to get the best experience to eventually try to go for FE ( on a griffon would be even better ) ?

I was thinking that now that the 400 SQN is doing a lot of the 300 hours work on the griffon it would be a nice selection because I would really go in depth.  But at the same time , I am still young and I want to deploy and travel the world , and I know that over at the 400 I might not get that much opportunity to do it.

Of course I wish I could go 427 , but as a new recruit straight out of my 3s I don't think it's something that happens a lot.  I thought about 430 in Valcartier , because I know these guys do deploy a bit.

So I guess a second part of my question is , Should I try to get the most experience in a SQN that doesn't deploy as much , or should I enjoy doing it younger and maybe not get as much in dept experience before applying for FE?

Thanks !
Title: Re: All Things Flight Engineer (merged)
Post by: Ditch on October 11, 2016, 07:14:58
I'm sitting beside your career manager - he says you need to be fully qualified (Journeyman status, 4-5 years) - good PERs, good at your job and stay healthy.
Title: Re: All Things Flight Engineer (merged)
Post by: krimynal on October 14, 2016, 11:24:18
but does the route you take influence the future options for going FE?

Would someone that goes like 430 or 427 have "more chance" or it doesn't change anything in the long run ?

I am just wondering , since I might need to decide in some weeks
Title: Re: All Things Flight Engineer (merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 14, 2016, 11:28:32
I don't know if it matters, or helps.  The one FE I am thinking of I know, he was AVN at 403, went FE and went to 440 before going to 403.  He moved on and is now on Cormorants.  I know others who were helo and ended up LRP.
Title: Re: All Things Flight Engineer (merged)
Post by: krimynal on October 14, 2016, 11:48:39
alright , I'll see when I ask for my posting I guess ....
Title: Re: All Things Flight Engineer (merged)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 14, 2016, 12:14:57
The only caution I have is, don't get ahead of yourself.  You're on Common now...you have years of training, work and experience ahead of you before you apply for FE.  Just don't let your future (long term) goals throw you off.  It can be easy to be looking so far ahead you don't see where you are, or need to go, in the present.

Title: Re: All Things Flight Engineer (merged)
Post by: krimynal on October 14, 2016, 15:14:37
yeah good point , I'm used to just trying to see way further down the road .....
I'll just try to enjoy my time here on course !
Title: How to become a FE
Post by: Airforce247 on July 06, 2018, 00:35:34
What are the steps into becoming a FE?
Title: Re: All Things Flight Engineer (merged)
Post by: Airforce247 on July 06, 2018, 00:40:04
Avs can also OT into this trade later on. According to my seargent from basic who is a FE
Title: Re: Avs/poet/cot
Post by: Eye In The Sky on July 06, 2018, 09:14:30
I was wondering what would happen if I failed poet. I heard if you failed a "400 series trade" such as AVS or AVN you cannot COT to another 400 series trade. I was wondering if that were true. I am not confident I could pass poet and was worried about that because if I failed i would like to be AVN. Hopefully all goes well for me during poet i am just concerned is all. Thank you.

I think that would be a better question for this part of the forum.    https://army.ca/forums/index.php/board,106.0.html