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The Parade Square => Military History => Topic started by: gordjenkins on March 20, 2007, 11:11:30

Title: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: gordjenkins on March 20, 2007, 11:11:30
Why all this hand wringing about Red Ensigns and Vimy.

First of all no Canadian flags were carried during the Vimy battle
or on the battlefield. Even Regimental Colours were not carried - - the only
exception being the PPCLI  but I suspect the colours were left back at RHQ!

Secondly in 70 pages of photographs and narrative in the 1936 Canadian Geographic
Journal special edition on 1936 "Vimy Pilgrimage"
 of which I have a copy
-not a Red Ensign to be seen!

The Union Jack was on the Podium at Vimy /at the parade in London
and other smaller ceremonies in France at the dedication  in 1936

So why the fuss of having Red Ensign at current memorial service on April 9th this year?
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: newfin on March 20, 2007, 11:20:19
The Canadian flag, The Maple Leaf, is the one that should be flown.  Apparently the Red Ensign will be displayed as part of a background piece for people to see what it looked like.  I can't understand why there are people who think that the flag from 90 years ago is relevant today.  The Canadian people are currently paying for the renovation and the Maple Leaf is the current flag.  So, that is the one that should be flown.  We don't need to honour a flag from the past when we finally have our own to pay respect to.  We seem to have these "flag flaps" in this country every few years.  It's long past time to move on.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: nowhere_man on March 20, 2007, 12:29:47
I do like the red Ensign but I have to aggree that it's time to move on, When someone has time to worry about somthing like this then it shows we're living in a pretty darn good country.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: geo on March 20, 2007, 12:39:18
The Red Ensign was used as early as 1868 on an informal basis. From 1892, it became the official flag for use on Canadian merchant ships, though the official national flag on land was the Union Flag. Despite its lack of official status, the Red Ensign began to be widely used on land as well, and flew over the Parliament buildings until 1904 when it was replaced by the Union Flag. The original Canadian Red Ensign had the arms of the four original provinces on its shield. In 1921, the Government of Canada asked king George V to order a new coat of arms for Canada. The Royal College of Heralds thus designed a suitable coat of arms for Canada. The designed shield was displayed on the Red Ensign, thus producing the Canadian Red Ensign. In 1922, the shield of the Coat of Arms of Canada replaced the provincial arms. In 1924, the Red Ensign was approved for use on Canadian government buildings outside Canada. The Canadian Red Ensign, through history, tradition and custom was finally formalized on September 5th 1945, when the Canadian Governor-General signed an Order-in-Council (P.C. 5888) which stated that "The Red Ensign with the Shield of the Coat of arms in the fly (to be referred to as "The Canadian Red Ensign") may be flown from buildings owned or occupied by the Canadian federal Government within or without Canada shall be appropriate to fly as a distinctive Canadian flag. So in 1945, the flag was officially approved for use by government buildings inside Canada as well, and once again flew over Parliament.

The Red Ensign served until 1965 when it was replaced by today's Maple Leaf Flag. The flag bore various forms of the shield from the Canadian coat of arms in its fly during the period of its use.
A blue ensign, also bearing the shield of the Canadian coat of arms, was the jack flown by the Royal Canadian Navy and the ensign of ships owned by the Canadian government until 1965. From 1865 until Canadian Confederation in 1867, the United Province of Canada could also have used a blue ensign, but there is little evidence such a flag was ever used.

Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: MarkOttawa on March 20, 2007, 20:44:35
During World War II official use of the Red Ensign was authorized by the RCAF in 1943 (Group 6?) and by the Canadian Army in 1944.
http://www.fotw.net/flags/ca-1921.html

This history I think may be definitive (forgive the length).  It would seem to me that the Legion is being a-historical in thinking the Ensign was in common use at the front in WW I. 

THE ARMS WITH GREEN LEAVES
http://fraser.cc/FlagsCan/Nation/Ensigns.html

"It is often said that Canadian nationalism came home in the baggage of the soldiers from the World War I. The soldiers of the Canadian Expeditionary Force had fought World War I under the Union Flag, which, as members of the British Empire, was their flag as much as anyone else's. However, they desired to be recognized as Canadians, and this was provided, at least in part, by their maple-leaf-covered badges.

The increased Canadian consciousness that came home with the soldiers in 1919 caused the pendulum to swing from the Union Flag back towards the Canadian Red Ensign. The shift was not strong enough that it would have been possible to persuade the country to adopt the ensign as the national flag, as was evidenced by the fuss in the country and parliament when a government committee was appointed in 1925 to report on the adoption of a national flag. The support for the Union Flag forced Prime Minister Mackenzie King to disband the committee. Nevertheless, the Canadian Red Ensign was coming back into its own.

The Canadian Red Ensign that emerged shortly after the war, was not the cluttered and aberrant ensigns of the past. The new badge was the shield of the recently granted arms of Canada. The previous situation where each province had arms, but the Dominion had not, was inappropriate, especially in the light of the increased feelings of Canadian nationalism. On March 26, 1919, Prime Minister, Sir Robert Borden appointed a committee to advise on a granting of arms from King George V.54 The arms they proposed were, with a most curious and significant change, the arms that George V granted on November 21, 1921.

Based on the committee report, on April 30, 1921 a Canadian government order-in-council requested a shield which had as its base, "argent three maple leaves slipped vert" or three green maple leaves upon a silver field. It was the colour of the maple leaves on the shield that was at issue, for the maple leaf held by the lion in the crest was red, and the mantling was red and white.55 The mantling established Canada's national colours as red and white. The red maple leaf in the crest, consistent with the national colours, was in striking contrast to the colour of the leaves on the shield. When the proclamation of arms arrived, it read "Argent three maple leaves conjoined on one stem proper." The "proper" indicated that the colour of the leaves on the shield was to be that of natural maple leaves, which included not only the requested green, but also yellow, or red. This subtlety was not to bother anyone for many years; for now, green leaves it was.

One other detail of interest for the ensign badge was third quarter of the shield: the Irish harp. This had been merely specified as "Azure A harp or stringed argent" which meant a golden harp with silver strings on a blue field. At the time the arms were granted, this was interpreted as being the same representation of a harp as appears upon the royal arms (and royal standard): a harp bearing the naked torso of a winged maiden. This, like the colour of the maple leaves, was to change in a later version of the arms, and so also on the badge of the ensigns.

On April 26, 1922, by order-in-council, the government authorized the shield of the recently granted arms to be used as the badge on both the Canadian Red and Blue Ensigns.56 This created the second official form of these ensigns, and now this satisfactory badge displaced all of the previous aberrant ones.

By now the Canadian Blue Ensign and its twin the Canadian Blue Jack had four different functions. As an ensign, it was worn at the stern of all governmental vessels other than warships, and it replaced the Canadian Red Ensign at the stern of merchantmen if the Captain and some of the crew were officers in the Royal Canadian Naval Reserve. As a jack it appeared at the bow of all governmental ships, whether warships or not. However, on warships the jack had the same shape as the ensigns: twice as long as it was wide. It also appeared at the bow of other government vessels, but there, the Canadian Blue Jack was nearly square. Thus, essentially the same flag, distinguishable only by its shape, flew at both the bow and the stern of non-belligerent governmental vessels. For example, RCMP cruisers in the 1930s flew a Canadian Blue Ensign at the stern and a (square) Canadian Blue Jack at the bow.57

On January 26, 1924, two years after the new badge was authorized, the official use of the Canadian Red Ensign was extended by another order-in-council. Now the flag was authorized for use on all Canadian buildings outside Canada. Although it now represented the Dominion in London, Geneva, and, shortly afterwards, in Washington, Paris and Tokyo, the Union Flag still flew over the Parliament Buildings at home.58 Although sentiments of Canadian nationalism were rising in the west, and they had always been high in Québec, Ontario remained fervently imperialistic. As an editorial in the Toronto Mail and Empire of June 5, 1925, put it:

    '... all the rules the ordinary flag owner need pay attention to are few and simple. For him is just one flag that can properly be flown; that is the Union Jack.' 59

In a somewhat more descriptive than prescriptive mood, a 1926 "manual of Canadian citizenship" produced by the National Council of Education billed the Canadian Red Ensign as the "National Emblem of Canada." School children of the day were assured that in addition to the use of the Canadian ensign on ships and on Canadian buildings abroad, it

    'is used at home by many of our citizens within the boundaries of the Dominion itself, as a symbol of our national freedom and independence within the Empire.' 60

Up until 1934, the use of the Canadian Red Ensign by merchant ships was based on the acquiescence in 1892 of the British Admiralty to the Canadian request. With formal independence gained in 1931 through the Statute of Westminster, the Canadian government moved to establish its own shipping regulations, and, concomitantly, authority over its merchant flag. The 1934 Canada Shipping Act read:

    'The red ensign usually worn by merchant ships with the shield of the coat of arms of Canada in the fly is hereby declared to be the proper national colours for all ships registered in Canada and all ships and boats which would be registered in Canada if they were required to be registered at all.' 61

While questions of flag usage can lie unsettled for many years during peacetime, a war forces them to be addressed. In World War I, the Union Flag failed to distinguish Canadian soldiers as anything but a part of the great British effort. The Canadian independence and self-assurance that followed that first great conflict would not permit a similar merging of identities a second time. To distinguish the Canadian combatants, the War Committee of the Cabinet had the Battle Flag created (approved December 7, 1939). Designed by Colonel A. Fortescue Duguid, Director of the Historical Section of the General Staff of the National Defence Headquarters in Ottawa, it had a white field, the Union Flag in the canton, three red maple leaves on one stem in the centre, and three golden fleurs-de-lis on a blue roundel in the upper fly.

In the early years of World War II, patriotic illustrations representing the services would show three flags: this battle flag of the army, the light blue ensign of the RCAF (approved in July 5, 1940), and the white ensign of the RCN. Although the Union Flag appeared in the canton of each flag, it rarely appeared on its own in such illustrations, as had been the pattern in the first war in spite of the fact that the King's Rules and Regulations (Canada) 1939, familiarly known as "K R Can" stated categorically that the flag of Canada "was the Union Jack."62 When the country as a whole was to be illustrated, the Canadian Red Ensign was invariably used.

The battle flag went overseas with troops, but it was a montage that sought to please many, and consequently pleased few. An editorial in The Maple Leaf, an armed forces newspaper published in London, noted that there was "Overwhelming opposition to the Canadian flag proposed by Col. Duguid ... [as] is shown in letters which have deluged The Maple Leaf office." (December 10, 1945) The flag fell into disuse. Meanwhile, the Canadian Red Ensign was gaining ground.

In 1943 August, during one of the periodic meetings at which the western allies' strategy was decided, Prime Minister Mackenzie King was host in Québec to British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and American President Franklin D. Roosevelt. This occasion demanded the hoisting of the flags of the three participant countries; the use of the Canadian Red Ensign for Canada was likely the first time in forty years that it had been used officially by the government to represent the country upon Canadian territory. The arrangements, presumably made by Britain, were at first not satisfactory. King was annoyed when he saw "the Canadian flag beneath the Union Jack, the day that Churchill arrived."63 After speaking to Churchill about the slight, he ordered all the flags to be flown at the same height with the Canadian Red Ensign in the central position of honour.

The ensign's stock continued to rise as its use was extended to both the air force and the army. On November 10, 1943, a routine order stated:

    'The Canadian Red Ensign with a shield of the Coat-of-Arms of Canada in the fly is to be flown in addition to the R.C.A.F. Ensign, at all units of the R.C.A.F. serving with the forces of other nations.'

Shortly thereafter, on January 22, 1944, a comparable routine order extended the use of the Canadian Red Ensign to the army. That Mackenzie King was a convert was clear from his recommendation to the cabinet on April 28, 1944:

    'that Canada take the Canadian Ensign and accept it at once as her national flag; not wait to design a special flag. Later a Committee could be appointed to consider new designs.'

However, nothing more was done officially until the war was over a year and a half later. 64

Thus, for the latter third of the war, not only the Canadian forces knew that they were fighting under the Canadian Red Ensign, but publications such as the Star Weekly, a weekend newspaper supplement, made the public well aware of it.

As the previous conflict had done, World War II enhanced national pride and confidence; many of those soldiers who went overseas thinking of themselves as British subjects came back as Canadians. So it was that the House of Commons was informed on October 1, 1945, that:

    'The Red Ensign is being flown from the Tower of the Houses of Parliament under authority of Order-in-Council, P.C. 5888, passed September 5, 1945. ... The Order-in-Council contained these provisions:

    That until such time as action is taken by parliament for the formal adoption of a national flag, it is desirable to authorize the flying of the Canadian Red Ensign on federal government buildings within as well as without Canada, and to remove any doubt as to the propriety of flying the Canadian Red Ensign wherever place or occasion may make it desirable to fly a distinctive Canadian flag.

    Nothing herein shall be deemed to alter in any way the provisions now in force with respect to the flying of the Blue Ensign with the Shield of the coat of Arms of Canada in the fly on Canadian naval vessels and other government vessels, nor with respect to the flying of the Canadian Red Ensign on Canadian Merchant vessels.'

Finally, after having flown the Canadian Red Ensign informally for about three-quarters of a century, Canadians had received official sanction for their actions. The order-in-council stopped short of declaring it the national flag of Canada, instead gave it a provisional status "until such time as action is taken by parliament for the formal adoption of a national flag". This was a point that was often ignored over the next twenty years by ardent supporters of the flag. 65

Use of the Ensign at Vimy would be utterly wrong, it would seem.

Mark
Ottawa

Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: MarkOttawa on March 21, 2007, 16:25:27
I was wrong.  See the comment by Chris Taylor at The Torch:
https://www2.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=22793240&postID=1820755071397554096

Mark
Ottawa

Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: T.R.Hayward on March 23, 2007, 14:24:18
The Canadian flag, The Maple Leaf, is the one that should be flown.  Apparently the Red Ensign will be displayed as part of a background piece for people to see what it looked like.  I can't understand why there are people who think that the flag from 90 years ago is relevant today.  The Canadian people are currently paying for the renovation and the Maple Leaf is the current flag.  So, that is the one that should be flown.  We don't need to honour a flag from the past when we finally have our own to pay respect to.  We seem to have these "flag flaps" in this country every few years.  It's long past time to move on.

Hello Newfin,

Some of my ancestors fought in WWI. There are very few veterans left from that era, and I believe that they should be honoured and respected for as long as there are Canadians.

To them, this was their flag. The symbol of their home.

In my opinion it has just as much relevance as today's flag to those who lost relatives in WWI. It is a proud reminder of our collective past and soon it will be even more poignant as the final veterans of WWI go to rest.

Thank you for your time and attention....

Best Wishes,

-Rick
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: 3rd Herd on March 23, 2007, 20:09:15
Why all this hand wringing about Red Ensigns and Vimy.

 the only exception being the PPCLI  but I suspect the colours were left back at RHQ![/i]


Gord,
if you examine any good photo's of the Ric a Dam Doo take a look at the holes in the top left  corner of it. Further the original staff was replaced several times as it was cut appart by bullets and shrapnel bursts.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: gordjenkins on March 23, 2007, 21:24:06
Mr Herd :>)
We are getting a bit off topic
- the point I was making was no Unit  carried Red Ensigns to the front in fighting that I am aware of
- the Australians had a their own Red Ensign in WW1 as well- 
  knowing them
-& to start an even broader discussion -
the Ozzie's probably did carry there's ? Digger - right /wrong?
secondly i was only pointing out that the only Canadian Unit that carried any flag at the front  in WW1 was the PPCLI - "Ric-A-Dam-Doo" ("Cloth of Thy Mother" in Gaelic)
third the PPCLI flag was a "Camp Colour" and was consecrated as a Regimental Colour in 1919

Gord

Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Journeyman on March 24, 2007, 10:31:08
Well, for reasons having nothing to do with historical accuracy, protocol, or even rationality, I vote for the Ensign with the four-province shield.

The bottom left icon is obviously a parachute wing   ;D


(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.crwflags.com%2Ffotw%2Fimages%2Fc%2Fca_vimy2.jpg&hash=ead21b4f9e1d4192355069067921e9cd)
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: ArmyVern on March 24, 2007, 10:47:08
Well, for reasons having nothing to do with historical accuracy, protocol, or even rationality, I vote for the Ensign with the four-province shield.

The bottom left icon is obviously a parachute wing   ;D


Only you JM could turn a thistle into a set of jump wings.  :D
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: geo on March 24, 2007, 12:36:24
Mr Herd :>)
We are getting a bit off topic
- the point I was making was no Unit  carried Red Ensigns to the front in fighting that I am aware of

- the Australians had a their own Red Ensign in WW1 as well- 
  knowing them
-& to start an even broader discussion -
the Ozzie's probably did carry there's ? Digger - right /wrong?

secondly i was only pointing out that the only Canadian Unit that carried any flag at the front  in WW1 was the PPCLI - "Ric-A-Dam-Doo" ("Cloth of Thy Mother" in Gaelic)

third the PPCLI flag was a "Camp Colour" and was consecrated as a Regimental Colour in 1919

Gord
The newly formed regiments of the CEF were all given a silk ensign.  Though most were never carried in battle, they most certainly did make it to Europe.  The one presented to the 14th Bn CEF's is encased in the WOs & Sgts mess of the Reg't that perpetuates it... the RMR.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Bigmac on March 25, 2007, 10:31:40
Quote
Most believe new and old Canadian flags should fly at Vimy Ridge ceremony: poll
MICHAEL OLIVEIRA



TORONTO (CP) - A majority of Canadians want the wishes of veterans respected and two different Canadian flags to fly at next month's ceremony recognizing the 90th anniversary of the Battle of Vimy Ridge, a new poll suggests.

The poll, conducted by Ipsos Reid on behalf of the Dominion Institute, found 79 per cent of respondents support the idea of flying both the current flag and the old Canadian "Red Ensign" atop the monument during the April 9 ceremony in Vimy, France.

At the time of the famous First World War battle at Vimy Ridge, the Canadian flag was red with the British Union Jack in the top left corner, and the coats of arms of Canada's first four provinces on the right side. In 1965, the flag was changed to today's Maple Leaf design.

Government protocol dictates that only a Canadian flag can adorn federal monuments; the Vimy monument is considered to be on Canadian soil, even though it's in France.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper, however, has reportedly expressed a desire to see the Red Ensign fly as part of the special ceremony - and on Friday, a spokeswoman for Veteran Affairs Canada all but confirmed both flags would be raised.

"We at Veterans Affairs are working to obtain a Red Ensign from the Vimy period in order to fly it during the ceremonies alongside the national flags of Canada, France and the United Kingdom," Janice Summerby said.

Rudyard Griffiths of the Dominion Institute said he was thrilled that "common sense prevailed" and that history will live on.

"I don't think veterans are saying here that this is about replacing the Maple Leaf or not showing proper respect for the Maple Leaf," he said.

"Quite the contrary, I think it's more an appeal to historical accuracy and an appeal to the reality that this was the flag of Canadians (of that era) and we shouldn't be airbrushing our history. I think for them it's a matter of being true to the history they helped create for Canada."

The most support for the idea was in the Atlantic provinces, where 89 per cent of respondents wanted both flags used. The idea won the least amount of support in Alberta and Quebec - 76 per cent.

Ipsos Reid polled 1,000 Canadians online during a three-day period starting March 20. The results are considered accurate to within 3.1 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.

http://www.recorder.ca/cp/National/070324/n032401A.html

      If the veterans want to see the flag as it was when they risked their lives for our country then we should respect their wishes. They deserve to know that we appreciate their sacrifices. I don't think it diminishes the significance of our current flag but only intensifies how far we have come due to the efforts of these brave soldiers.

     My opinion is fly both flags but salute the current.  :cdnsalute:
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: milnews.ca on March 25, 2007, 12:31:50
More details on the survey results.....

News Release (http://milnewstbay.pbwiki.com/f/IpsosReidVimy24Mar07.pdf) - Tables of Detailed Breakdown of Results (http://milnewstbay.pbwiki.com/f/IpsosReidVimyTables24Mar07.pdf)

8 IN 10 CANADIANS (79%) WANT CURRENT AND HISTORIC CANADIAN FLAGS FLOWN AT VIMY RIDGE 90TH ANNIVERSARY CEREMONY

Toronto, ON – A poll conducted by Ipsos Reid for the Dominion Institute shows that a full
majority of Canadians (79%) support flying both the modern day Canadian Maple Leaf flag
and previous “Red Ensign” Canadian flag at the Vimy Ridge 90th anniversary ceremony that
will be taking place on April 9, 2007.

The most famous battle fought by Canadians in World War One was at a place called Vimy
Ridge in France where a very large monument owned and operated by the Canadian federal
government now exists.

Canadian government protocol allows no other flag than the Maple Leaf to fly on federal
monuments. Various groups have called on the Conservative government to override the
protocol and allow both the current Maple Leaf and historic Red Ensign – the flag Canadian
troops fought under in World War One – fly together at the ceremony.

In 1917 the Canadian Red Ensign flag was a red flag with the British Union Jack in the top left
corner and the coats of arms of the four original provinces. In 1964 Canada’s flag was
changed to today’s Maple Leaf flag.

The Atlantic provinces (89%) are significantly more likely to support flying both flags at
Vimy Ridge than most of the other provinces. Those from BC (81%) also show strong support
for flying both flags, while Alberta (76%) and Quebec (76%) show slightly less.

REGION
                  Total           BC           AB          SK/MB        Ontario        Quebec      Atlantic
Support       79%           81%        76%           79%           78%          76%         89%
Oppose        18%           17%        19%           13%           19%           20%        9%
Don’t know   3%             2%          5%             7%             3%            4%          2%

Question: Do you support or oppose the two flags flying together for this occasion?
Groups who also say they support flying the flags together include:

· Young Canadians 18-34 are more likely to support than older Canadians 55+
(82% versus 77%)
· Females (81%) are more likely to support flying both flags than males (76%)
· Rural Canadians (82%) are more likely than Urban Canadians (78%)

These are the findings of an Ipsos Reid survey fielded from March 20th to 22nd, 2007. For the survey, a
representative randomly selected sample of 1,000 adult Canadians were interviewed via an on-line
survey. With a sample of this size, the aggregate results are considered accurate to within ±3.1
percentage points, 19 times out of 20, of what they would have been had the entire adult Canadian
population been polled.
The margin of error will be larger within each sub-grouping of the survey
population. These data were weighted to ensure the sample's regional and age/sex composition reflects
that of the actual Canadian population according to Census data.

Age Gender
                  Total           18-34           35-54           55+           Male           Female
Support        79%            82%             79%           77%           76%              81%
Oppose         18%            15%            18%            20%           21%              14%
Don’t know     3%             3%              3%              3%             2%                 4%

(....)
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: AJFitzpatrick on March 25, 2007, 18:10:45
I see that most of the salient points have been covered but I wonder if they will be flying the Union Jack as well since it was the flag that the Newfoundlanders fought under.  Historical accuracy and protocol apparently not being a factor.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: RangerRay on March 25, 2007, 21:41:12
The Red Ensign in 1917:

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fflagspot.net%2Fimages%2Fc%2Fca-1907u.gif&hash=fab6d814574bd68fc5a6e6d697917ed6)

The Newfoundland Ensign in 1917:

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fflagspot.net%2Fimages%2Fc%2Fca_nfbe2.gif&hash=d1bab44f586ac349493afd6c8bd38da4)
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: tomahawk6 on March 26, 2007, 00:16:44
I think those who fought at Vimy Ridge and other places would be more than proud to have the maple leaf fly over them for all eternity. It is their sacrifice that made the maple leaf possible.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: NFLD Sapper on March 26, 2007, 00:25:54
I think those who fought at Vimy Ridge and other places would be more than proud to have the maple leaf fly over them for all eternity. It is their sacrifice that made the maple leaf possible.

I'm  with T-6 on this whether its the Union Jack, the Red Ensign, or the Maple Leaf THEY made it possible for us to have this discussion.

As a side note the Newfoundlanders that fought in WW1 served under the Union Jack as they where part of the Britian at the time.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Michael O'Leary on March 26, 2007, 00:33:21
I'm curious, for those who are arguing so strongly for the Red Ensign to be flown, to represent the Canada for which those who died on the ridge fought, will they be allowing the Newfoundlanders to parade with the Canadians?  Or would they send them to parade under their own flag of the day?

Canada today is honouring the actions on Vimy Ridge, I believe that the flag that represents all of Canada today should have the most prominent position.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: NFLD Sapper on March 26, 2007, 00:42:33
I'm curious, for those who are arguing so strongly for the Red Ensign to be flown, to represent the Canada for which those who died on the ridge fought, will they be allowing the Newfoundlanders to parade with the Canadians?  Or would they send them to parade under their own flag of the day?

Canada today is honouring the actions on Vimy Ridge, I believe that the flag that represents all of Canada today should have the most prominent position.


As usual Michael most think Canada ends at Nova Scotia. If it where up to me we should all parade under the maple leaf as we are now one country united under said flag. And if I'm not mistaken we are still known as the Dominion of Canada.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: gordjenkins on March 26, 2007, 09:20:30
Dominion of Canada no more!
- we are just plain "Canada"
Gord

[i]Use of Canada and Dominion of Canada
Neither the term Dominion of Canada nor Dominion government appear in the 1867 Act; however, the former appears in the Constitution Act, 1871 — usage of which was "sanctioned" [16] — and both appear in other texts of the period, as well as on numerous Canadian bills before 1967.

Until the 1950s, the term Dominion of Canada was commonly used to identify the country. As Canada increasingly acquired political authority and autonomy from the United Kingdom, the federal government increasingly began using simply Canada on state documents. The Government of Prime Minister Louis St. Laurent enacted a formal policy of removing the word "dominion" from all updated bills and statutes. [2]

The Canada Act 1982 refers only to Canada and, as such, it is currently the only legal (as well as bilingual) name. This was also reflected later in 1982 with the renaming of the national holiday from Dominion Day to Canada Day. Section 4 of the 1867 BNA Act declares that:

Unless it is otherwise expressed or implied, the Name Canada shall be taken to mean Canada as constituted under this Act.
and this has been interpreted to mean that the name of the country is simply Canada.[/i]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada's_name#Use_of_Canada_and_Dominion_of_Canada
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: NFLD Sapper on March 26, 2007, 11:01:59
Quote
Neither the term Dominion of Canada nor Dominion government appear in the 1867 Act; however, the former appears in the Constitution Act, 1871 — usage of which was "sanctioned" [16] — and both appear in other texts of the period, as well as on numerous Canadian bills before 1967.

Until the 1950s, the term Dominion of Canada was commonly used to identify the country. As Canada increasingly acquired political authority and autonomy from the United Kingdom, the federal government increasingly began using simply Canada on state documents. The Government of Prime Minister Louis St. Laurent enacted a formal policy of removing the word "dominion" from all updated bills and statutes. [2]

The Canada Act 1982 refers only to Canada and, as such, it is currently the only legal (as well as bilingual) name. This was also reflected later in 1982 with the renaming of the national holiday from Dominion Day to Canada Day. Section 4 of the 1867 BNA Act declares that:

Unless it is otherwise expressed or implied, the Name Canada shall be taken to mean Canada as constituted under this Act.
and this has been interpreted to mean that the name of the country is simply Canada. No constitutional statute amends this name and the subsequent Canada Act 1982 does not use the term dominion at all; nor does it state that Canada is not a dominion. While no legal document ever says that the name of the country is anything other than Canada, Dominion and Dominion of Canada remain official titles of the country.[17][18][19]

In recent years the terms Dominion of Canada and Dominion are occasionally used to distinguish modern (post-1867) Canada from either the earlier Province of Canada or from the even earlier The Canadas. The terms are also used to distinguish the federal government from the provinces, though in this usage "federal" has become more common than "dominion". Among those who lament disuse of the term was the late Eugene Forsey, in response to what he and other monarchists consider increasing republicanism. However, the federal government continues to produce publications and educational materials that specify the currency of these official titles.[20][19]

Footnotes:

2. Trigger, Bruce G.; Pendergast, James F. (1978). "Saint-Lawrence Iroquoians", Handbook of North American Indians Volume 15. Washington: Smithsonian Institution, pp. 357-361. OCLC 58762737. 

16. Martin, Robert. 1993(?). 1993 Eugene Forsey Memorial Lecture: A Lament for British North America. The Machray Review. Prayer Book Society of Canada. — A summative piece about nomenclature and pertinent history with abundant references.
17.  Marsh, James H., ed. 1988. "Dominion" The Canadian Encyclopedia. Hurtig Publishers: Toronto.
18.  Rayburn, pp. 19, 21.
19  a b Canadian Heritage: National Flag of Canada Day, Canada's Digital Collections: Confederation 1867, Canadian Heritage: The Prince of Wales Royal Visit 2001, Quiz
20.  Forsey, Eugene A. 2005. How Canadians Govern Themselves (PDF), 6th ed. Canada: Ottawa; pp. 8-9.

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada's_name




Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: AJFitzpatrick on March 28, 2007, 16:10:28
Just an update:
The Canadian Heraldic Authority is right in a flurry to  register all the varieties of Canadian red ensigns so expect to see a red ensign flying. It also looks like it will be the "9 province" ensign but that is not definitive.

Source: Coppermine Herald (a person, not a newspaper)
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: AJFitzpatrick on March 30, 2007, 11:55:07
Another Update:

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=16ee79dd-e45e-4f4a-b5e8-cf9f24e543f8&k=76825 (http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=16ee79dd-e45e-4f4a-b5e8-cf9f24e543f8&k=76825)

Two salient points:
1) It will be the "4 province flag" 
2) It's going to be flying all year

As I read more about this it seems that the 4 province flag had some measure of official sanction so probably it has precedence over the "9 province flag". I was more worried about seeing the 1921 (green leaves) or 1955 (red leaves) versions.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: gordjenkins on March 30, 2007, 21:55:38
Can anyone tell me how many versions there are of the Canadian Red Ensign
and
which one is now going to be flown at Vimy now ??
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: radiohead on March 30, 2007, 22:17:51
Personal I think both should be there, as the Ensign of teh Flag on Canada in 1917 and so it deserves its spot on the Ridge just as the Maple leaf does.

And there is no way to tell of teh vets from the ridge would of prefered the current flag as there was a lot of feeling for old Ensign.

"Secondly in 70 pages of photographs and narrative in the 1936 Canadian Geographic
Journal special edition on 1936 "Vimy Pilgrimage"

The reason for this is because Canada after the Great War went back to the Union Jack and it stayed that way until WW2 and even then it was only late in the war that canadians found their flag again.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: AJFitzpatrick on March 30, 2007, 22:26:28
This a good place to start
Flags of the world (http://national-flags.co.uk/world-flags/allflags/ca_.html#hist)
There seems to be a new flag every time a new province is added.
This makes 7+ varieties of the Canadian Red Ensign
You do run into the problem of "official" vs. "popular".
I believe this is the "four province flag" that will be flying
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.crwflags.com%2Ffotw%2Fimages%2Fc%2Fca_vimy2.jpg&hash=ead21b4f9e1d4192355069067921e9cd)

Added: It is not so much that a Canadian Red Ensign is flying so much as it is the correct Canadian Red Ensign.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: RangerRay on March 30, 2007, 22:34:20
Can anyone tell me how many versions there are of the Canadian Red Ensign

According to this (http://flagspot.net/flags/ca_.html) , at least seven.  Scroll down the page till you see the header "History".  I appear to be incorrect.  Although the "9 province" ensign was unofficially in use, the "4 province" ensign was the "official" ensign from 1892 - 1922.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: NFLD Sapper on March 30, 2007, 23:24:55
This a good place to start
Flags of the world (http://national-flags.co.uk/world-flags/allflags/ca_.html#hist)
There seems to be a new flag every time a new province is added.
This makes 7+ varieties of the Canadian Red Ensign
You do run into the problem of "official" vs. "popular".
I believe this is the "four province flag" that will be flying
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.crwflags.com%2Ffotw%2Fimages%2Fc%2Fca_vimy2.jpg&hash=ead21b4f9e1d4192355069067921e9cd)

Added: It is not so much that a Canadian Red Ensign is flying so much as it is the correct Canadian Red Ensign.

I goofed.

:cheers:
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: AJFitzpatrick on March 30, 2007, 23:41:27
I don't see how you see too many coats of arms, there are only four there. It is Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick. Granted the Quebec and Nova Scotia are not those currently in use.
What you show is a 1955 Canadian Red Ensign England, Scotland, Ireland, France (Last time I checked those weren't provinces) + Canada
( red maple leaves as opposed to proper maple leafs).
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: pidd on March 31, 2007, 18:16:52
Someone, I think it was Mark Steyn, once remarked: 
'Canada is the only country in the western world that celebrates its heritage by abolishing it.'

There was absolutely no need whatsover for this controversy to have occurred except for the idiocy and anti-British sentiment in the federal bureaucracy. The spokesperson for VA stated that 'only the national flag of Canada can fly on federal property'.  Rubbish.  Right now at the Vimy Memorial, the flag of France flies beside the Maple Leaf.  It is Canadian soil not French.  Every Remembrance Day, the Maple Leaf and the Union Flag fly on federal property; including the War Memorial in Ottawa.  The Union Flag was designated an official Canadian flag by act of Parliament, 18 December 1964 in order to permit continuity with Canada's relationship and history within the Commonwealth and loyalty to the Crown and is flown on certain days throughout the year and at ceremonies where Canada's participation with other Commonwealth forces are marked.  Vimy would certainly fit that scenario.

I am amazed and saddened at the apparent indifference to the once-treasured emblems of our country's past among members of the military where the very heart and soul of service identity is with the honours, the comrades, the tradition established by those who have gone before us.

Historical revisionism, the vertiable lack of teaching and reading in history over the past four decades and the insidious invention of a mythology surrounding Vimy and the Maple Leaf (as if the former was Canada's battle for independence instead of a splendid victory over the German defenders and the latter its symbol!) leaves one breathtakingly gasping for the spirit of John McCrae. Canada grew to nationhood because it was British not in spite of it.

We who serve or who have served in the Canadian Armed Forces in each generation ought to stand, not merely for our own personal preferences in protocol, drill, deportment or symbolism, but for the rich legacy, including the British, that was bought so dearly on the battlefield. 

My grandfather, Sgt. Ernest Leonard, fought at Vimy Ridge with the 19th Battalion.  Like more than half of the Canadian Expeditionary Force, he was from the British Isles.  Their loyalty, devotion and enormous sense of duty for the Empire and the Dominion at the time, ought not to so easily be airbrushed away. 

It is disgraceful that such a public display of deliberate misrepresentation by the bureaucrats, especially ones who claim to represent
veterans, should have taken place at all.  It dishonours the memory of the fallen and the cause for which they fell and makes one wonder why they would go to such lengths to deceive.

The Prime Minister's heart is in the right place by responding to the call of the veteran's organisations and the particular Red Ensign that will be raised at least signals some kind of acknowledgement and respect towards the generation of the men being honoured.

The Maple Leaf and the Union Flag, by protocol, should fly. 



Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: RangerRay on April 01, 2007, 00:23:20
Well said Pidd.  PM inbound.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Babbling Brooks on May 04, 2007, 15:19:50
I remember that flag:

http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/05/i-remember-this-flag-and-those-who.html

The Government of Canada has finally come around to remembering it properly too.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Signalman150 on May 04, 2007, 16:12:43
+1

My father was in the RCAF when I was a wee tad.  That's the flag I remember being painted on the tails of the Sabres, Canucks and--later--Starfighters in Europe. I have pic of me with my parents standing in front of the first Starfighter delivered to 3 Wing Zweibrucken, and yep; on the tail is the Red Ensign.

All the kids from the DND school went out to the airbase at Decimomannu in Sardinia for the "official" raising of the Maple Leaf.  It was just another school outing for me, but I still remember a sense of disappointment at seeing the new flag.  It wasn't nearly as colourful or complex as the Ensign, and to my 8 year old mind that was sad.

I've always had a soft spot for that flag; it represented Canada to me at my most impressionable age.

Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: milnews.ca on July 09, 2007, 13:06:41
The latest, with the usual glasses G&M wear - highlights & italics mine - shared with the usual disclaimer...

Dallaire slams decision to fly Red Ensign
INGRID PERITZ, Globe & Mail, 090439EST Jul 07
Article link (http://www.rbcinvest.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070709.wvimy09/front/Front/frontBN/rbc-front)

Senator Roméo Dallaire is blasting Ottawa's decision to fly the historic Red Ensign at the Canadian National Vimy Memorial, calling it an inappropriate move that also flies in the face of proper protocol.

The retired Canadian general says the Red Ensign belongs in an interpretation centre, not in a prominent spot on equal footing with the Canadian Maple Leaf and national flag of France.

"The Red Ensign is not our Canadian flag - it was our Canadian flag," Mr. Dallaire said in an interview yesterday. "To put the Red Ensign at the same level as the French and current Canadian flag is absolutely against all possible protocol. It's inappropriate."

Prime Minister Stephen Harper, after lobbying by some veterans groups, decided to fly the Red Ensign during April's 90th anniversary commemoration of the Vimy Ridge battle in France.

His government quietly decided soon afterward to fly the flag year-round.
The Red Ensign was the flag Canadian soldiers fought under during two world wars, and was replaced in 1965 by the Maple Leaf.

Mr. Dallaire decided to speak out after he was approached by another senator from Quebec, Marcel Prud'homme, who visited the Vimy memorial in France last month and was incensed to see the Red Ensign flying side by side with the Maple Leaf.

Mr. Dallaire said the Prime Minister was misguided to yield to veterans' lobbying efforts.

"He called it wrong," Mr. Dallaire said.

"Of course you respect our veterans, but you also respect protocol and you don't take spontaneous decisions like that when you're touching things of significance," Mr. Dallaire said.

Canadian protocol calls for no flag but the Canadian Maple Leaf to fly on federal monuments, so the Prime Minister had to override the rules.

Mr. Dallaire said his own father was a career soldier who fought under the Red Ensign for six years during the Second World War. "When the new flag came out, for the first little while he was a bit unhappy. But then he made a decision. He said, 'This is our new flag and this is the flag of our nation, and that's it.' He turned the page."

Mr. Dallaire, a member of the Vimy Memorial Restoration Committee, said he will raise the issue with the Harper government.

A spokesman for Veterans Affairs said the decision to fly the Red Ensign at the Vimy Memorial permanently was made by the Prime Minister's Office.

A spokesman for Jason Kenney, secretary of state for multiculturalism and Canadian identity, defended the move. He noted that a public opinion poll showed a strong majority of Canadians - 79 per cent - favoured the flying of the Red Ensign at Vimy for the April commemoration ceremony.

(My own add-on -- According to the Ipsos-Reid poll released 24 Mar 07 here (http://milnewstbay.pbwiki.com/f/IpsosReidVimy24Mar07.pdf), 79% said yes to this question, according to the survey details (http://milnewstbay.pbwiki.com/f/IpsosReidVimyTables24Mar07.pdf):  "...Today, Canadian government protocol allows no other flag than the Maple Leaf to fly on the federal property monument but some groups are now asking the government to forgo that protocol and fly the Red Ensign, the flag that Canadian troops fought under in World War One, alongside the Maple Leaf AT the 90th anniversary of the battle of Vimy Ridge. Do you support or oppose the two flags flying together for this occasion?")

"We can recognize the fact that the Canadian Red Ensign is an enduring source of Canadian patriotism," the spokesman, Alykhan Velshi, said. "It's entirely appropriate that it flies at the monument [in Vimy] to commemorate those soldiers who fought under it."

Mr. Dallaire said Ottawa's decision suggests the country does not know how to properly mark its history.

"You sort of wonder sometimes at the maturity of our nation in things of this nature."

Mr. Dallaire retired as a lieutenant-general in the Canadian Forces in 2000.


Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: pidd on July 09, 2007, 14:09:08
This 'issue' is full of falsehoods mixed in with anti-British vitriol.

The protocol concerning the flying of flags on federal properties is overseen by the Department of Heritage.
The Department of Heritage, following the act of Parliament, 1964, asserts that the Royal Union Flag
ought to be flown on certain days of the year and on those occasions when the Canadian forces
participated with other Commonwealth forces, i.e., Vimy, Dieppe, Normandy, et al.

The protocol is that when just one pole is available, only the national flag can be flown.

When more than one pole is available for those days and occasions, the Royal Union Flag, aka, the Union Jack, must be flown.

That is why the Union Flag, the 'official' flag, even during the times of varieties of the Red Ensign, up to February, 1965, is always flown on Remembrance Day on federal property, e.g., the national war memorial.

The adherence to this protocol, or rather the lack of it, has created the illusion that 'only the national flag'
can fly on federal land.

The conservative government, no doubt sensitive to the political culture into which they came, chose to
respond to the requests for the Red Ensign instead of the Union Flag.  Either way, there is certain
part of Canada that never liked the British flag, the British, their ensigns, their monarchs, their wars,
their anything and, for the most part, they have had 'their' way with respect to abolishing the pre-1965
heritage of this country.

Dallaire is a disgrace for more than this.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Spencer100 on July 09, 2007, 17:57:04
Dilliare is every Liberal's favourite ex-General.  I can not speak to his military record but I am they upset about his record in the senate.  As Liberal appointment he has become very much a Liberal and not very friendly to his ex-profession.   

As to the flag, MY OPPION is that we have had other flags in this country and we should remember them and the people who served under them. 
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: bannerman on April 07, 2008, 12:08:06
Interesting photo of an occasion when the Canadian Red Ensign was used as an official Canadian flag. It was, strictly speaking, one of two Canadian Flags of that time, including the Royal Union.

This photo shows the dedication of a Canadian Field Artillery memorial on Vimy Ridge in 1918. The unmistakeable figure of Sir Arthur Currie stands out among the officers around the chaplain.

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbannerman2.googlepages.com%2FNewPicture.jpg%2FNewPicture-full%3Binit%3A.jpg&hash=57e19fdf473dd3f49a29f439ec947023)
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: George Wallace on April 07, 2008, 13:30:07
That I will accept as "a" Red Ensign; but I will not accept it as "the" Canadian Red Ensign that was the flag we flew prior to the current Canadian Flag.  It does not have the Shield incorporating the ten Province's Coats of Arms.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Teddy Ruxpin on April 07, 2008, 14:10:23
There are so many versions of the Red Ensign that it is difficult to tell which is valid at which time.

This appears to be the 1901 version:

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fotw.us%2Fimages%2Fc%2Fca-1901u.gif&hash=e802e586eb707b6f19895000ba29681c)

The version we all know came into service in 1921/22.

Everything you ever wanted to know about the Ensign is here:

http://www.fotw.us/flags/ca_ensgn.html (http://www.fotw.us/flags/ca_ensgn.html)
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: jollyjacktar on April 07, 2008, 19:16:38
This is the flag that those men we are honouring at Vimy fought and all too often died serving under.  It is fitting that a place be made for it on that place.  It was the flag that my Grandfather and Great Uncle who died at Vimy knew.  My Father and Uncles also served and died under this flag a generation later. 
True, it is not the present flag representing our Canada of today, the flag that I serve under is the Maple Leaf.  So what.  There is room for both, it is right and fitting that we make connection between our world and theirs.  Is that not the whole idea behind this exercise?  To remember and honour these men?  Sorry, but I don't feel threatened by this mark of respect.  I applaud it.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: bannerman on April 07, 2008, 19:37:12
 Minister Jason Kenney launched a set of posters of Historic Flags of Canada at an Ontario school recently. It was written up in Le Droit newspaper. There is a poster of all the different Canada Red Ensigns up to 1957/65. They are all available free of charge from Heritage Canada at:
http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/posters_flags_e.cfm
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: uptheglens on April 08, 2008, 08:17:28
There are so many versions of the Red Ensign that it is difficult to tell which is valid at which time.

This appears to be the 1901 version:

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fotw.us%2Fimages%2Fc%2Fca-1901u.gif&hash=e802e586eb707b6f19895000ba29681c)

The version we all know came into service in 1921/22.

Everything you ever wanted to know about the Ensign is here:

http://www.fotw.us/flags/ca_ensgn.html (http://www.fotw.us/flags/ca_ensgn.html)

Here's another variation on the 1901 version (I agree that until 1922, the history of the Red Ensign in Canada is a very tortured history). It has 7 provinces (the main difference is that British Columbia's emblem is a lion, a laurel, and "BC" on it) and instead of two branches of maple leaves, the left side is a branch of maple leaves, and the right side is a branch of oak leaves and acorns. Bought this at a flea market about 15 years ago, and its dimensions are roughly 10' long and 6' tall.

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg246.imageshack.us%2Fimg246%2F4694%2Freoi4.jpg&hash=5ea7e7068f095941a589cf3a13282747) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: bannerman on April 08, 2008, 08:47:46
The poster from Heritage Canada features a 1907 flag with a shield bearing the arms of all 9 provinces (Newfoundland had its own distinctive Red and Blue Ensigns).
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: bannerman on April 08, 2008, 14:22:25
gord jenkins is wrong that the flag on the podium in the 1936 dedication ceremony at Vimy was a Union Jack. This photo shows clearly that it was a large post-1922 Canadian Red Ensign.
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vac-acc.gc.ca%2Fimages%2Fvimy90%2Fgalleries%2F04_monument%2F05_dedicate%2Fdedicate4_lg.jpg&hash=614e9524cf4a5a4e54ecbae25a8f14e9)
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: RangerRay on April 08, 2008, 16:42:17
WARNING: THREAD HIJACK!

FYI, the device for BC in Uptheglens Red Ensign was the pre-Confederation emblem for the Crown Colony of British Columbia.  It is the Royal Crest with "B" and "C" on either side.  It was used in a Blue Ensign for the Colony and Province, and Union Jack for the governor/lieutenant governor, until the creation of a proper shield in 1906.

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.protocol.gov.bc.ca%2Fprotocol%2Fprgs%2Fsymbols%2Fimg%2Froyalcrest.jpg&hash=04ce658e8a9713c7e9da88aa568db4ad)

Although we had no authorisation from the Sovereign to use the Royal Crest, it has been used in our heraldry ever since.  When we were granted official supporters and crest in 1987, the Royal Crest was granted for the first time to another sovereign entity, with a differentiating mark (garland of dogwoods around the lion's neck).

The Coat of Arms of British Columbia: A Brief History  (http://www.protocol.gov.bc.ca/protocol/prgs/symbols/coat_of_arms.htm)

END OF HIJACK
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: gordjenkins on April 12, 2008, 18:27:42
Reference to 'hijack"- very interesting

Actually this is called "Crest and Crown"

The crest is based on the Royal Crest of England but differenced in Canada -except for this example - by the addition of a maple leaf, and appears on the Governor General's blue flag denoting that the Governor General is a representative of the Sovereign.

It consists of a crowned gold lion standing on a twisted wreath of red and white silk and holding a maple leaf in its right paw. Above the crest is St Edward's Crown, the style preferred by the Queen. (See the article on the royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom for a discussion of different styles of crown historically used in the Commonwealth.)

The 1921 design was a Tudor crown, and the style was modernized to its current form in 1957 by the Canadian government, although the Queen had indicated her preference in May 1952, shortly after ascending the throne in February 1952.(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F%5Bimg%5D&hash=5f78b6afa405eb4b8d053ec4686327a3)[/img]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Canada#Armorial_evolution
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Yeoman on April 12, 2008, 18:42:44
Minister Jason Kenney launched a set of posters of Historic Flags of Canada at an Ontario school recently. It was written up in Le Droit newspaper. There is a poster of all the different Canada Red Ensigns up to 1957/65. They are all available free of charge from Heritage Canada at:
http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/posters_flags_e.cfm

whoa, now that's nifty stuff right there. I think I shall send them an e-mail to get a Canadian Red Ensign Flags poster then.
I've always wanted to get the 1097 Flag as a tattoo, but knowing fully well it would turn out terrible due to the amount of details necessary.
*end hijack*
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: gordjenkins on April 12, 2008, 20:28:03
Gord jenkins is wrong that the flag on the podium in the 1936 dedication ceremony at Vimy was a Union Jack. This photo shows clearly that it was a large post-1922 Canadian Red Ensign.
snip

I am ALMOST sorry I started this post on Red Ensigns 2000 plus entries ago:>)

My initial post was two years ago - and I still stand by it - (except for a droopy Red Ensign which no one in the vast audience can see !

Why all this hand wringing about Red Ensigns and Vimy.

First of all no Canadian flags were carried during the Vimy battle
or on the battlefield. Even Regimental Colours were not carried - - the only
exception being the PPCLI  but I suspect the colours were left back at RHQ!
Secondly in 70 pages of photographs and narrative in the 1936 Canadian Geographic
Journal special edition on 1936 "Vimy Pilgrimage"
 of which I have a copy
-not a Red Ensign to be seen!

The Union Jack was on the Podium at Vimy /at the parade in London
and other smaller ceremonies in France at the dedication  in 1936

So why the fuss of having Red Ensign at current memorial service on April 9th this year?


In the 61 pages of the "Vimy Pilgrimage" December 1936 Canadian Geographic Journal Vol xiii No *8  Vimy Pilgrimage
or
136 pages of therCanadian Legion of the (then) British Empire League
"The Vimy Pilgrimage" July 1938
except for this "droopy" example any Red Ensigns!!
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Proud_Newfoundlander on April 13, 2008, 15:24:58
I have to agree with the inclusion of the old ensign. That is the flag canadians fought and died under in 1917, not the official maple leafs flag. I also believe there was a red ensign present at the battle of Vimy Ridge
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: bannerman on April 14, 2008, 13:15:03
Pictures speak so much louder than words -- especially erroneous words. And many, many words have been expended trying to prove that the Red Ensign was "not seen" in the First World War.

The most notable was from the mouth of former PM Lester Pearson, who twice misled the House of Commons in the 1964 flag debate when he said that the Red Ensign was "not seen" in France during the First World War.

Apart from misinformation, the other tactic used by the Anti-Red Ensign Brigade is to abuse or demean the Red Ensign. For example, Gord Jenkins saying in his last post that the Red Ensign on the podium at Vimy in 1936 is "droopy." In fact it is obvious that it is attached to the railing on the podium. The crowd below can see clearly the top half is a Union Jack, the bottom half is bright red - the distinctive Canadian flag that everyone could recognize at the time.

Here is an artist's view of the victory parade in Paris in 1918. Note the prominent Canadian Red Ensign that is being carried by our victorious troops. Art speaking truth to denial.

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbannerman2.googlepages.com%2FCanadianflag1918.jpg%2FCanadianflag1918-full%3Binit%3A.jpg&hash=4e9b7105b1c77b05ea8e97d3d918fee1)

Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Proud_Newfoundlander on April 14, 2008, 22:44:41
Pictures speak so much louder than words -- especially erroneous words. And many, many words have been expended trying to prove that the Red Ensign was "not seen" in the First World War.

The most notable was from the mouth of former PM Lester Pearson, who twice misled the House of Commons in the 1964 flag debate when he said that the Red Ensign was "not seen" in France during the First World War.

Apart from misinformation, the other tactic used by the Anti-Red Ensign Brigade is to abuse or demean the Red Ensign. For example, Gord Jenkins saying in his last post that the Red Ensign on the podium at Vimy in 1936 is "droopy." In fact it is obvious that it is attached to the railing on the podium. The crowd below can see clearly the top half is a Union Jack, the bottom half is bright red - the distinctive Canadian flag that everyone could recognize at the time.

Here is an artist's view of the victory parade in Paris in 1918. Note the prominent Canadian Red Ensign that is being carried by our victorious troops. Art speaking truth to denial.

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbannerman2.googlepages.com%2FCanadianflag1918.jpg%2FCanadianflag1918-full%3Binit%3A.jpg&hash=4e9b7105b1c77b05ea8e97d3d918fee1)



Very Nice Bannerman
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: gordjenkins on April 14, 2008, 23:24:10
artists can be fanciful cant they
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

as for the 'Vimy so called flag'
The Red Ensign was presented to this Museum in 1918 to commemorate the Canadian achievement at Vimy Ridge by Lieutenant Colonel Lorn Paulet Owen Tudor of the Saskatchewan Regiment, who commanded the 5th Canadian Infantry Battalion from 29 June 1917 to 8 March 1918.
David Penn
Keeper, Exhibits & Firearms
Imperial War Museum


Canadian red ensign in Imperial War Museum (Canada)

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca_wwimu.html


Vimy exhibit]
courtesy Imperial War Museum through Gordon Thompson

[Vimy flag]
contributed by David Penn through Gordon Thompson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In a the quote by Former Prime Minister, Lester Pearson in "Canada's Flag - A Search for an Identity" , it is noted:: "The Red Ensign, though many of my correspondents do not seem to appreciate this, was not used during World War I in anyway, shape or form for the Canadian forces".

I have some concerns about this statement. The photo above is the flag donated to the Imperial War Museum in 1918 to commemorate the Battle of Vimy Ridge along with back-up information. The flag is a Red Ensign. Also I have seen photographs in Canadian history books covering WW1 displaying the Red Ensign with Canadian Forces. I also recently purchased a Canadian flag from a collection from an American serviceman who served with the Canadian Forces in WWI. It also is a four shield Canadian Flag. I believe this refutes the above statement and displays that the Red Ensign was used by Canadian Forces (primarily the Army) in WWI.

I believe that Lester Pearson served in the Royal Flying Corp which was entirely British, since the RCAF was not formed until 1924. The only distinctive Canadian forces that served overseas in WWI was the Army. I also believe the former Prime Minister's statement was somewhat politicized due the ongoing debate at that time versus those who wanted the new flag and those, including the Canadian Legion, who wanted to retain the Red Ensign.

The Red Ensign has served this country well both in an official and un-official capacity. For those of us born under it, we mourned its passing. The new Maple Leaf flag has served us well since 1965, but I believe the old Red Ensign deserves it fair shake for the period of time it represented this country.
Gordon Thompson,

Canadian red ensign in Imperial War Museum (Canada)

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca_wwimu.html




Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: bannerman on April 16, 2008, 12:06:07
Showing the flag on the Western Front:

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbannerman2.googlepages.com%2FShowingtheFlag.jpg%2FShowingtheFlag-large%3Bbrt%3A41.jpg&hash=7ba48fc95fb6c3d230c57febede975c6)
Title: The Red Ensign on the Western Front 1915-1918
Post by: bannerman on April 17, 2008, 14:23:07
Showing the flag on the Western Front. "A new concept of Canadian nationality is born."

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbannerman2.googlepages.com%2FShowingtheFlag.jpg%2FShowingtheFlag-large%3Bbrt%3A41.jpg&hash=7ba48fc95fb6c3d230c57febede975c6)

This and other pics can be viewed at http://bannerman2.googlepages.com/home
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: bannerman on April 17, 2008, 14:37:16
Sir Arthur Currie unveils a monument to the Canadian Field Artillery at Vimy in 1918.

showing the Canadian Flag of that time, bearing a shield with the arms of the nine provinces.

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbannerman2.googlepages.com%2FNewPicture.jpg%2FNewPicture-large.jpg&hash=ad23c016fe7f85498ff7113872c90167)

For better detail, see the Canadian Heritage website, which offers a poster called the "Evolution of the Canadian Red Ensign" at http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/posters_flags_e.cfm
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: bannerman on April 17, 2008, 14:42:11
Available from the Department of Canadian Heritage at http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/posters_flags_e.cfm

Evolution of the Canadian Red Ensign (1870-1965)
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pch.gc.ca%2Fprogs%2Fcpsc-ccsp%2FFlag_Posters%2Fposter_4%2Fimages%2FHTML-Poster-4_12.jpg&hash=a52ce4dc54d25de6a327c03cb551e547)

Drapeaux du régime français (1534-1760)
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pch.gc.ca%2Fprogs%2Fcpsc-ccsp%2FFlag_Posters%2Fposter_1%2Fimages%2Fdrapeaux-du-regime-franc-11.jpg&hash=b8f11cb5184a22693e1f7b6bcd81384c)
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Yrys on April 17, 2008, 14:47:13
I suddendly feel that my history course was lacking, never heard of  "Drapeaux du régime français (1534-1760)".
And I'm pretty sure to be young enough to have had one that was rewrite by the P.Q. ...
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: DeweyDecimalSystem on April 17, 2008, 15:16:29
I suddendly feel that my history course was lacking, never heard of  "Drapeaux du régime français (1534-1760)".
And I'm pretty sure to be young enough to have had one that was rewrite by the P.Q. ...
Covering 4000 years of history in 180 days of school leaves little time for flags.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Yrys on April 17, 2008, 15:27:27
Covering 4000 years of history in 180 days of school leaves little time for flags.

I had an history course for the 4000 years in secondary 2, but my secondary 4 was on "history of Canada" and we saw
the Québec and Canadian flags (how they came into being), and the hymn of Canada, etc.

digression : I had a professor of economic in my  secondary 4 history course, and a professor of history in my secondary 5 economic course.
                One teacher said that it was because of "ancienneté" (lenght of service, seniority) .
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Blackadder1916 on April 17, 2008, 20:54:11
Rally to the colours! 

That was probably a cry often heard in the cities and towns of Canada between 1914 and 1918.  Unfortunately those who answered that call were not available to attend the re-dedication ceremony in question or to give their opinion about which flag they rallied to.  Their response may have been different from those who gave their opinion on this thread.   It may have been different from the colours under which they swore allegiance.  Saying that the "Red Ensign" was the flag they fought under is easy for those who came after to say.  But at the time the “official” flag was the Union Flag.  This was probably very familiar and the symbol to follow for most when they enlisted for overseas service as the population of the young nation was heavily of British ancestry (or were actually immigrants from the British Isles).

However, as it is said that Canada became a "nation" on Vimy Ridge, many of its soldiers probably felt some stirring to distinguish themselves from the British Army and thus used the Red Ensign much like many of us (well, those of my generation) used the maple leaf flag on backpacks to identify us as “not being American”.  Though it has been reported that the Red Ensign was popularly used in Canada before and during the war, a quick review of contemporary recruiting posters seems to suggest that the Union Flag was frequently used to entice potential recruits.  (any examples using the ensign that I found are shown) (click on image for larger view)

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdigital.library.mcgill.ca%2Futils%2FaltImage.php%3Fimage%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fwp1-r36-f7.jpg%26amp%3Balt%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fnoimg.jpg&hash=6e72eac431f6ce7cd35f636b01c61c89) (http://digital.library.mcgill.ca/warposters/search/searchdetail.php?ID=13681&version=e)(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdigital.library.mcgill.ca%2Futils%2FaltImage.php%3Fimage%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fwp1-r38-f7.jpg%26amp%3Balt%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fnoimg.jpg&hash=45499147210de958dc579786e96ac921) (http://digital.library.mcgill.ca/warposters/search/searchdetail.php?ID=13683&version=e) (https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdigital.library.mcgill.ca%2Futils%2FaltImage.php%3Fimage%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fwp1-r27-f5.jpg%26amp%3Balt%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fnoimg.jpg&hash=2a29742357fc41e2c55f1394a92d69c4) (http://digital.library.mcgill.ca/warposters/search/searchdetail.php?ID=8673&version=e)(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdigital.library.mcgill.ca%2Futils%2FaltImage.php%3Fimage%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fwp1-r34-fr1.jpg%26amp%3Balt%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fnoimg.jpg&hash=d59b7f38f48fab135e12109ad499b76f) (http://digital.library.mcgill.ca/warposters/search/searchdetail.php?ID=8680&version=e)


(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdigital.library.mcgill.ca%2Futils%2FaltImage.php%3Fimage%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fwp1-r10-f2.jpg%26amp%3Balt%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fnoimg.jpg&hash=f58406a8ff173a16ad7644a197b1d638) (http://digital.library.mcgill.ca/warposters/search/searchdetail.php?ID=8656&version=e)(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdigital.library.mcgill.ca%2Futils%2FaltImage.php%3Fimage%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fwp1-r1-f1.jpg%26amp%3Balt%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fnoimg.jpg&hash=ce7c54958f89abd3d3f933ffdf743d65) (http://digital.library.mcgill.ca/warposters/search/searchdetail.php?ID=8647&version=e)(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdigital.library.mcgill.ca%2Futils%2FaltImage.php%3Fimage%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fwp1-r37-f7.jpg%26amp%3Balt%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fnoimg.jpg&hash=8c08cc88f5581823f04a115d91567fc6) (http://digital.library.mcgill.ca/warposters/search/searchdetail.php?ID=13682&version=e)

(edited to add this image)
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdata2.collectionscanada.ca%2Fap%2Fc%2Fc029568k.gif&hash=63ddd1e2c99f827577ec35263f9b352d) (http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/firstworldwar/05180107/051801070304_e.html)

And also in Victory Bond campaigns
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdigital.library.mcgill.ca%2Futils%2FaltImage.php%3Fimage%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fwp1-b26-f5.jpg%26amp%3Balt%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fnoimg.jpg&hash=2d69a5ecc9c2fd2101557129c14e16b4) (http://digital.library.mcgill.ca/warposters/search/searchdetail.php?ID=13671&version=e)(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdigital.library.mcgill.ca%2Futils%2FaltImage.php%3Fimage%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fwp1-b25-f5.jpg%26amp%3Balt%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fnoimg.jpg&hash=166ead598d11aa5c17bda3d7274b7758) (http://digital.library.mcgill.ca/warposters/search/searchdetail.php?ID=13670&version=e)(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdigital.library.mcgill.ca%2Futils%2FaltImage.php%3Fimage%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fwp1-b29-f5.jpg%26amp%3Balt%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fnoimg.jpg&hash=e0c2a509c3c9dac161f52309d51f8ef1) (http://digital.library.mcgill.ca/warposters/search/searchdetail.php?ID=13674&version=e)(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.williamscully.ca%2Fgallery2%2Fd%2F18369-2%2F30_G.jpg&hash=87ef5ac805e7df303c9ac5e13f413380) (http://www.williamscully.ca/gallery2/v/Canada-at-War/30_G.jpg.html)

And it seems that Canada's image of itself was somewhat similar in the next war.

 (https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdigital.library.mcgill.ca%2Futils%2FaltImage.php%3Fimage%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fwp2-r1-f1.jpg%26amp%3Balt%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fnoimg.jpg&hash=9fcc04ce30ad763f7ed20653fc33d778) (http://digital.library.mcgill.ca/warposters/search/searchdetail.php?ID=8722&version=e)    (https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdigital.library.mcgill.ca%2Futils%2FaltImage.php%3Fimage%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fwp2-e7-f2.jpg%26amp%3Balt%3Dwarposters%2Fimages%2Fthumbnails%2Fnoimg.jpg&hash=71fc479d67d0e53ba9d1fe1b925b0c33) (http://digital.library.mcgill.ca/warposters/search/searchdetail.php?ID=8764&version=e)

Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: RangerRay on April 17, 2008, 21:23:49
It appears the Red Ensign was used as early as 1891 in election advertising...

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pixelcreation.fr%2Ffileadmin%2Fimg%2Fsas_image%2Fgalerie%2Fgraphisme%2Faffiche%2520quebec%2F04.jpg&hash=41f43a284c54f6a241186be3bb9000de)
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: bannerman on April 18, 2008, 13:54:18
First World War poster

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbannerman2.googlepages.com%2FBravoCanada.jpg%2FBravoCanada-medium%3Binit%3A.jpg&hash=ce4aa3bf65b54af17ac0ab2a36177fca)
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: geo on April 18, 2008, 14:28:04
First World War poster
Looks like the kind of poster that would have been printed and distributed about the time of "post VIMY RIDGE", end of WW1.

When Canada went to war in 1914, there were some Canadian reservists but, a large part of the 1st contingent were Brit expats who had emigrated here and were being called back to the colours - to defend their homeland.... sorta thing.  Using the Union Jack made a lot of sense.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: bannerman on April 21, 2008, 11:52:29
The Maple Leaf Forever, circa 1918

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.militarybadges.info%2Fcanada%2Fimages%2Fpics%2FMaple-Leaf-Forever.jpg&hash=372a1487c6d21e441bd5951431ea2ec0)
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: E.R. Campbell on April 21, 2008, 11:57:44
Don't we already have enough red ensign threads?

It was a grand old flag and deserves our respect, but not two or three threads worth, thank you.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: bannerman on April 21, 2008, 21:48:57
Hmmm ... 4070 readers  ... yeah we had better hide this thread in the history section!

Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Michael O'Leary on April 21, 2008, 21:52:07
Hmmm ... 4070 readers  ... yeah we had better hide this thread in the history section!


Hmmm, the sum total of the readers of the five or so merged threads, most of which would have been viewed by the same members each time a post was added to each of the separate threads. 

Isn't discussion on the red ensign actually a historical topic?

Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: bannerman on April 21, 2008, 21:58:09
Some of the threads are historical, but I think the original GordJenkins thread should go back into the news section where it began (i.e. Vimy 2007 and follow up).

The "Historical Flags of Canada posters" are also news - they are brand new posters that were created in 2007 and they are available from Heritage Canada now. They just published "Military Flags of Canada in the 20th century" last month...
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Blackadder1916 on April 21, 2008, 22:32:15
Some of the threads are historical, but I think the original GordJenkins thread should go back into the news section where it began (i.e. Vimy 2007 and follow up).

The "Historical Flags of Canada posters" are also news - they are brand new posters that were created in 2007 and they are available from Heritage Canada now. They just published "Military Flags of Canada in the 20th century" last month...

2007?  Isn't the past, history?  While a comtemporary event (though new posters from the gov't hardly seems 'news' worthy) may seem that it should be placed in "Military Current Affairs & News" the subject matter being discussed in this thread deals with history.  The history of an event and the historical use of a flag.  The controversy of flags at the Vimy re-dedication ceremony may have been suitably a current event at its time (or more aptly a topic for Canadian Politics) but it has moved on.  The amount of traffic that it might attract in another forum should not be a criteria for its placement.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: ArmyVern on April 21, 2008, 22:37:55
This merged topic makes it much easier to find in a search too.

ArmyVern
The Milnet.ca Staff
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: bannerman on April 22, 2008, 00:04:39
"None of us saw a Canadian Red Ensign in those years." - Lester Pearson, Prime Minister, to the House of Commons, 30 June 1964.

Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: geo on April 22, 2008, 09:01:09
IIRC... As you get old, memory is the 2nd thing to go......
I can't rememebr what the 1st thing to go.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Blackadder1916 on April 25, 2008, 18:08:14
(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.greatwardifferent.com%2FGreat_War%2FVimy%2FFlag_UK.gif&hash=7a0b738573203515fc9e6b129b4388dc)      or      (https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.greatwardifferent.com%2FGreat_War%2FVimy%2FFlag_Canada_Old.gif&hash=8b1d14abcf505aac2a7a6d796095fc84)

In battle all appears to be turmoil and confusion, but the flags and banners have prescribed arrangements. (Sun Tzu, Art of War, c. 700 B.C.)

The symbolism of a flag.    Men and women have fought and died for what such a piece of cloth represents.  Some have performed outrageous acts for the sake of what they “perceive” it to mean and some have ascribed a greater significance to the flag than to the people (individually and collectively) it represents.  Canada has a long history of trying to figure out what it means to be “Canadian”.  For much of our history we were identified as being just a small (perhaps minor) part of a greater empire or by what we were not. “We’re (or not) British”.  "We’re not American”.  And of course the “duality” of our founding has added to the discussion.  Our use of flags has been just a reflection of that dilemma.   So what was that reflection years ago, when flags were used much more than today as a national rallying point or identifier in times of war.  Examples of a flag, either the Royal Union Flag or one of the many versions of the Red Ensign , being used in recruiting advertisements or on rare occasions in the field overseas have already been posted here.   But who rallied to what colour?

http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/disp/dis001_e.html
Quote
Fully two-thirds of the men of the first contingent had been born in the British Isles. Most had settled in Canada in the 15-year period of massive immigration which had preceded the Great War. The same attachment to the Mother Country was less obvious among the Canadian born, especially French Canadians, of whom only about 1000 enlisted in the first contingent. At the time war was declared, only 10 percent of the population of Canada was British born. Yet, by the Armistice in 1918, nearly half of all Canadians who served during the war had been born in the British Isles. These statistics indicate that voluntary enlistments among the Canadian born were never equal to their proportion of the population.

Following the despatch of this first contingent, the Department of Militia and Defence delegated the task of recruiting to militia units across the country. This decentralized and more orderly system raised a total of 71 battalions — each of approximately 1000 men — for service overseas. Posters, which appeared in every conceivable public space, were an important part of this large recruiting effort. The poster text and images were usually designed and printed by the units themselves and tailored to local conditions and interests. Many of the posters on display are good examples of these.

Recruitment, however, was already tapering off in the fall of 1915. In October of that year, Ottawa bowed to the pressure of patriotic groups and allowed any community, civilian organization or leading citizen able to bear the expense to raise an infantry battalion for the CEF. Some of the new battalions were raised on the basis of ethnicity or religion, others promoted a common occupational or institutional affiliation or a shared social interest, such as membership in sporting clubs, as the basis of their organization. For example, Danish Canadians raised a battalion, two battalions recruited "Bantams," men under 5 feet 2 inches tall, and one Winnipeg battalion was organized for men abstaining from alcohol. Up to October 1917 this "patriotic" recruiting yielded a further 124,000 recruits divided among 170 usually understrength infantry battalions.

In July 1915, with two contingents already overseas and more units forming, Ottawa set the authorized strength of the CEF at 150,000 men. Extremely heavy Canadian casualties that spring during the Second Battle of Ypres indicated that additional manpower would be required on an unprecedented scale. There would be no quick end to the fighting. In October, Borden increased Canada's troop commitment to 250,000; by the new year, this had risen to 500,000. This was an almost unsustainable number on a voluntary basis from a population base of less than eight million. Within months, voluntary enlistments for Canadian infantry battalions slowed to a trickle.

Unemployment had been high in 1914-1915, and this perhaps had prompted the initially heavy flow of enlistments, especially from economically-troubled Western Canada. By 1916, the booming wartime industrial and agricultural economies combined to provide Canadians with other options and employers competed with recruiting officers for Canada's available manpower. Those keen to volunteer had already done so; the rest would have to be convinced — or compelled.

By the end of 1916, the CEF's front-line units required 75,000 men annually just to replace losses, which were extremely heavy among the infantry; yet, only 2800 infantry volunteers enlisted from July 1916 to October 1917 and not a single infantry battalion raised through voluntary recruitment after July 1916 reached full strength.

Some additional examples of recruiting posters.  Probabably from early in the war when the Union Flag may have been more prominently used. (and helmets were not)

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firstworldwar.com%2Fposters%2Fimages%2Fpp_can_51_sm.jpg&hash=c18354fadfa63336fc9c7eafc231620d) (http://www.firstworldwar.com/posters/images/pp_can_51.jpg)         (https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnfb.ca%2Fcefhistoire%2Fmed%2Fdocs%2Fcoll%2FDOC_593833.jpg&hash=3e119c7d5a51f2c895050a17a8ff7d86)

However some (from Central Recruiting Committee, No. 2 Military Division, Toronto, 1915) made use of both flags.

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmemory.loc.gov%2Fservice%2Fpnp%2Fcph%2F3g10000%2F3g12000%2F3g12700%2F3g12717t.gif&hash=1d523b3f12e38893cf308efe4da02500) (http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3g10000/3g12000/3g12700/3g12717v.jpg)      (https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmemory.loc.gov%2Fservice%2Fpnp%2Fcph%2F3g10000%2F3g12000%2F3g12700%2F3g12718t.gif&hash=b5dee7cc3d1205f96b36dcd141235a1a) (http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3g10000/3g12000/3g12700/3g12718v.jpg)


And there were also some very specific recruiting campaigns such as this one aimed at Jews.  Though this poster may have been a copy of an British one which may explain the use of the Union Flag.
 
 (https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmemory.loc.gov%2Fservice%2Fpnp%2Fcph%2F3g10000%2F3g12000%2F3g12400%2F3g12406t.gif&hash=cabd7a50a55e5fec26d180624141c3ce) (http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3g10000/3g12000/3g12400/3g12406v.jpg)
Quote
Britain expects every son of Israel to do his duty
Poster shows a soldier cutting the bonds from a Jewish man, who strains to join a group of soldiers running in the distance and says, "You have cut my bonds and set me free - now let me help you set others free!" Above are portraits of Rt. Hon. Herbert Samuel, Viscount Reading, and Rt. Hon. Edwin S. Montagu, all Jewish members of the British parliament.
Text continues: Enlist with the infantry reinforcement for overseas under the command of Captain [Isidor] Freedman, Headquarters, 786 St. Lawrence Boulevard, Montreal.
A version was also used with the text in Hebrew  (http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3g10000/3g11000/3g11300/3g11300v.jpg)


Of course not all recruiting advertisement made use of a flag, some provided some very sensible information.

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmemory.loc.gov%2Fservice%2Fpnp%2Fcph%2F3g10000%2F3g12000%2F3g12600%2F3g12690t.gif&hash=a69d1f347d03729b0630fa774cac7dc9) (http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3g10000/3g12000/3g12600/3g12690v.jpg)


Use of the Red Ensign during the war.     

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theglobeandmail.com%2Fspecial%2Fmemoryproject%2Ftop85%2Fimages%2Fphotographs%2Fvernonphotos.jpg&hash=980a5a228f941197116a2e413abf5518) (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/special/memoryproject/top85/photos.html)
This small photo is identified as “Mobilization camp in Vernon, B.C”.  While the date is unclear, it appears to be an ensign flying from the flagpole.

There is some well known film footage of Canadian soldiers crossing the Rhine at Bonn and passing General Currie on the saluting dais.  Though it is not clear from this out take (couldn’t find one from a different perspective) of the flags flying, this (NFB) description of the film made by the Canadian War Records Office, Ministry of Information provides some info.

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnfb.ca%2Fcefhistoire%2Fmed%2Fdocs%2Fcoll%2FDOC_593765.jpg&hash=046e558bea4d7a32e06a558913e3cb3d) (http://nfb.ca/enclasse/ww1/en/searchvisionerfilm.php?id_film=searchin=films&id=531540&act=tout&q=25th%20battalion#)

Quote
This footage documents the arrival in Bonn of British cavalry units on December 12, 1918, and the arrival the next day of the 2nd Canadian Division. Events are not depicted in their actual sequence. A segment filmed along a country road showing Currie taking the salute from passing troops — some on horseback and others pushing bicycles — was probably shot in the Bonn area during the same period. This is followed by scenes shot at the Canadian Corps Headquarters, where Field-Marshal Sir Douglas Haig is paying a formal visit. In a separate segment, a travelling shot shows a line of mounted Canadian staff officers.

December 13 was the date set by the Allies for crossing the Rhine — an event with even greater significance than crossing the German border. . . .

The following day, under pouring rain, the men of the 2nd Canadian Division, commandeered by Major-General Sir H.E. “Harry” Burstall, entered the city. The parade of troops was 18 km (eleven miles) long and took over five hours to cross the bridge. Some scenes from this momentous event are documented here — in the sections that show Currie standing on a dais to the left of the bridge. Although the clip does not depict the parade in its actual sequence, we know that troops marched in order of seniority. . . .

Note the presence of a small Canadian Red Ensign on the dais — one of the first instances of its use by the Canadian Army in the field, and a sign of the greater sense of Canadian nationhood that had emerged over the course of the First World War. The Union Jack, the flag normally used by Canadians during the war, can also be seen, to the left of the frame.

Though it has already been shown that the Canadian Red Ensign had been occasionally used (either officially or unofficially) during the war, it is significant that such a description of its use was made for this widely viewed film footage.

But use of flags extended beyond recruiting campaigns and patriotic symbols to stir the nation.  It also was a symbol of past and faithful service when the guns were silent.


(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnfb.ca%2Fcefhistoire%2Fmed%2Fdocs%2Fcoll%2FDOC_595068.jpg&hash=9a26fec7acdd534bb4a6ba439c98b77a)
Rt. Hon. W.L. Mackenzie King laying a wreath during Remembrance Day Service on Parliament Hill, Nov. 11, 1937, Ottawa.   Note the many Union Flags lining the steps, perhaps held by veterans displaying the flag under which they served.

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fthumb%2F3%2F33%2FArthur_Currie_Funeral_Procession.gif%2F250px-Arthur_Currie_Funeral_Procession.gif&hash=11b4e4513c0e647839f396189960aabd) (http://www.archives.mcgill.ca/pictures/pr011312.gif)
General Currie’s 1933 funeral procession.  Though he has been recognized as partially responsible for ensuring that the Canadians during the Great War were identified as being distinctly Canadian, he is laid to rest under the flag which he served.

And Currie was not the only one laid to rest under the Royal Union Flag.  Though I wasn’t able to find any photos of  overseas military funeral ceremonies, there is this description of the military funeral of N/S Forneri.

http://www.johnowensmith.co.uk/churches/bramshoi.htm
Quote
Sister AGNES FLORIEN FORNERI
NURSING SISTER'S BURIAL - The late Miss Forneri of Kingston Given Full Honors - Particulars have come to hand of the funeral obsequies of the late Nursing Sister Agnes Florien Forneri, who died in the Canadian Hospital, Bramshott, on the 24th April (1918). Miss Forneri was buried with military honors, every battalion in the camp being represented.  The coffin was draped with the Union Jack and was borne on a gun carriage, her hat resting on the top among the flowers. The six officers who were pallbearers, and the senior chaplain, Major Hepburn, followed. Then came the matron of the hospital and the nurses and a large number of patients, her own and others, some of whom could hardly walk, and who carried several lovely wreaths and other floral tributes, among which was an enlarged maple leaf composed of white and yellow flowers, given by "her boys" as a token of affection and esteem. The service (Anglican) was conducted by the senior chaplain, the first part in the hospital and the remainder beside the open grave in the nearby churchyard of Bramshott church, a beautiful burying ground, which look more like a garden than a cemetery. There was a large firing party, and at the end, "The Last Post" was sounded. All was most beautiful and impressive, the band contributing its exquisite strains to the pathetic and solemn effect, and then the burial. The spot in which Miss Forneri lies, with another devoted sister, is in a special part of the cemetery which has been set aside for Canadian soldiers. These nursing sisters rest beside the men they served and for whom they gave their best. And it is most fitting that our dear Canadian sisters should be buried like soldiers and in a soldier's grave, for they are indeed as brave and true as any soldier and "faithful unto death."
Her name is here in the  Book of Remembrance. (http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/content/collections/books/bww1/detail.cfm?page=ww1409&lang=english)

"Flag Flying" an editorial from the Toronto Mail and Empire of 5 June 1925
Quote
. . . ordinary flag owner need pay attention to are few and simple. For him is just one flag that can properly be flown; that is the Union Jack. The Red Ensign, called the Canadian Flag, with the Canadian Coat of Arms in the field is proper only afloat. . . . In hoisting the flag the broad white stripe of the Cross of St. Andrew should be next to the mast-head for if reversed it is an indication of distress. The flag should never be hoisted before sunrise, nor should it continue to fly after sunset.

And what was the view we wanted our neighbours to the south to have?

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdigital.lib.umn.edu%2FIMAGES%2Fthumbnail%2Fmswp%2Fmsp01264.jpg&hash=acef6a5f64250be9347f20fe607a5bbe) (http://digital.lib.umn.edu/IMAGES/reference/mswp/msp01264.jpg)   (https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdigital.lib.umn.edu%2FIMAGES%2Fthumbnail%2Fmswp%2Fmsp01263.jpg&hash=4e190c399cd2408fb9eccb2462390b71) (http://digital.lib.umn.edu/IMAGES/reference/mswp/msp01263.jpg)   (https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdigital.lib.umn.edu%2FIMAGES%2Fthumbnail%2Fmswp%2Fmsp01275.jpg&hash=0a1b58f71aa8f9f70462bbea06fd633e) (http://digital.lib.umn.edu/IMAGES/reference/mswp/msp01275.jpg)   (https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdigital.lib.umn.edu%2FIMAGES%2Fthumbnail%2Fmswp%2Fmsp01267.jpg&hash=ed7860b2dff82c69a7afc0b9fac72f62) (http://digital.lib.umn.edu/IMAGES/reference/mswp/msp01267.jpg)

But then, Canada wasn't the only member of the British Empire that was beginning to assume an identity of its own with some similiar (though not as much) flag issues.

(https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firstworldwar.com%2Fposters%2Fimages%2Fpp_aus_11_sm.jpg&hash=6cb14a0b39efefafb6d41811a2e231b6) (http://www.firstworldwar.com/posters/images/pp_aus_11.jpg)   (https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firstworldwar.com%2Fposters%2Fimages%2Fpp_aus_15_sm.jpg&hash=50fdf1907306b56b302e7044faac6f14) (http://www.firstworldwar.com/posters/images/pp_aus_15.jpg)   (https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firstworldwar.com%2Fposters%2Fimages%2Fpp_aus_03_sm.jpg&hash=10576172261463b77767bb0528340f08) (http://www.firstworldwar.com/posters/images/pp_aus_03.jpg)    (https://Army.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firstworldwar.com%2Fposters%2Fimages%2Fpp_aus_05_sm.jpg&hash=0c9fda5fac8edd109b8caacc4f4ccdfa) (http://www.firstworldwar.com/posters/images/pp_aus_05.jpg)

Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: hunterphfr on May 31, 2008, 00:39:07
"None of us saw a Canadian Red Ensign in those years." - Lester Pearson, Prime Minister, to the House of Commons, 30 June 1964.




Let's not forget Lester had a political agenda, and the Red Ensign certainly had no place in it.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Keir on April 17, 2011, 11:00:25
I've made the pilgrimage to Vimy where I was gratified to see the flag the soldiers recognised being honoured whilst Commonwealth war cemeteries in the area had the maple leaf logo being foisted upon them, even when Canadian dead were outnumbered by British. Seen I left Canada I've seen the coat of arms changed to add yet more maple leafs to the design, and the Manitoba flag being considered as candidate for change- probably via design through committee in the same way sports teams change their uniform designs. I feel I've lost my country.
In any event, I teach history about 10 miles from Dachau and cycle the hour to work and back every day with a sewn red ensign, and my classroom is covered in Canadian ensigns- red, blue, Victory loans, etc. Check it out!
http://imperialflags.blogspot.com/2010/01/british-empire-flags.html
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: MCG on March 07, 2014, 05:37:39
Quote
The Maple Leaf flag is still hard to take seriously, almost 50 years on
 Kevin Hampson
18 February 2014

It’s incredible that it’s already been nearly a half-century that the cartoonish Maple Leaf flag has flown over our solemn Parliament buildings. The sight is just as absurd today as it was on Feb. 15, 1965, when the Red Ensign was lowered and that frivolous pop-art was raised in its place.
 
I can hear the outrage: Treasonous! Unpatriotic! But this is a strange reaction, given that the people who adopted the Maple Leaf were anti-nationalists, and they deliberately chose a flag that was devoid of meaning. 
 
The adoption of the new flag was part of a larger project, undertaken by the Liberal Party, bureaucrats and public intellectuals, to remove historical symbols from public life and invent a new Canadian identity.


http://www.mayerthorpefreelancer.com/2014/02/18/the-maple-leaf-flag-is-still-hard-to-take-seriously-almost-50-years-on

:orly: Some opinion pieces are hard to take seriously.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on March 08, 2014, 11:54:47
The sign of the stupefying stupidity of Mr. Hampson's contention is that as of today, almost 20 days after publication, his op-ed piece has attracted a grand total of - zero - nada - not a single - comment in the viewer's comments section.

I rest our case.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Schindler's Lift on March 08, 2014, 15:29:47
Its not even worth disparaging.  lol
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Dimsum on March 08, 2014, 19:39:23
The sign of the stupefying stupidity of Mr. Hampson's contention is that as of today, almost 20 days after publication, his op-ed piece has attracted a grand total of - zero - nada - not a single - comment in the viewer's comments section.

I rest our case.

He does have a good poi........sorry, I can't even type this with a straight face.  The Canadian flag is, IMO, one of the few that can't be mistaken for another country. 
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Schindler's Lift on March 08, 2014, 20:18:47
He does have a good poi........sorry, I can't even type this with a straight face.  The Canadian flag is, IMO, one of the few that can't be mistaken for another country.

Nothing near as bad as Belgium, Romania and Chad.
Title: Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
Post by: Rocky Mountains on June 05, 2014, 20:48:59
As a side note the Newfoundlanders that fought in WW1 served under the Union Jack as they where part of the Britian at the time.

Untrue - they had the same status as Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa.

From 1933 to 1949 they reverted to colony status because they were hopelessly bankrupt in the depression.