Army.ca Forums

Army.ca => Combat Elements => Topic started by: Jungle on February 17, 2003, 19:59:00

Title: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Jungle on February 17, 2003, 19:59:00
Long article, but I couldn‘t link.

Article from the (CDN) Infantry journal
The Canadian Commando Course
Capt (PERSEC)

The Army is suffering a moral crisis. It is losing it‘s "combat mindset", that outlook of the profession that sets it apart from the rest of society. Combat mindset is the way of thinking that causes leaders to ask "will this make my unit more capable of defeating the enemy" or "Will my soldiers be tougher?" as opposed to what will this do to my career... or why bother, anyone can be uncomfortable". Indications that a combat mindset exists are intense interest in weapons, and tactics, physical Fitness, combat survival and adventure training. Minor injuries are considered part of training, experimentation with methods and tools to defeat the enemy is encouraged and physical luxuries in the field are seen as weakness.
If the current decline in combativeness is not reversed quickly the army will soon be little more than a police force. One step toward instilling combat mindset into the corporate body of the army is to establish a school with the sole purpose of training soldiers mentally, physically and technically for close combat. I propose that the Army establish a "Commando Course" for this purpose.

AIM

The aim of the Commando Course shall he to indoctrinate soldiers with A combat mindset and improving the armies ability to right. It will achieve it‘s goal by:
Instilling combat mindset through rigorous indoctrination,
Vigorous training in close combat and covert mobility,
Creating a big desired qualification to improve morale,
Motivating soldiers to prepare themselves for a challenging course,
Creating a test bed for infantry weapons, equipment and tactics.
Creating a cadre of highly trained irregular warfare instructors.

SCOPE

The course will be based on the World War 2 Commando Course run at Achnacarry, Scotland. It is not a version of SAS selection, the U.S. Army Ranger program or Special Forces courses. It is a course in how to fight. It is a combat skills course not a leadership course nor a unit selection device.
The course would be six weeks long and would be based at the CTC. It would he open to any trained combat or combat support arm soldier who could pass the pre-course physical fitness test. Which would consist of the current combat swim test with all times and distances doubled, the 13,78 km battle fitness test in 1 hr 45 min minutes, 8 palm down pull ups and a bench press of the candidates body weight. Candidates would also have to fire
the infantry PWT to marksman and complete all tests of elementary training on rifle platoon weapons and the pistol within 3 months of attending the Commando School.
The course would last 45 days (39 training, 3 admin, 2 travel days). Each training day would consist of 16 training hours. The course content (with the percentage of course time devoted to each and approximate hours) would consist of the following:
a. Close Quarter Battle with small arms including training with pistols, M203, flame-throwers, jungle lanes, room clearing, night fighting, expedient weapons and unarmed combat (15.51/ol 97 hours).
b. Demolitions using issue, expedient and foreign explosives (12,5%/78 hours).
c. Combat Survival including resistance to interrogation and counter tracking dog techniques (14.5%/90 hours).
d. Watermanship including combat swimming and the use of assault and recce boats (6%/ 37 hours).
e. Mountaineering (19%/ 118 hours).
f. Combat Medicine including IVs, CPR, practical gunshot training and drug administration (2.5%1 16 hours).
g. Foreign Weapons including training on all Russian company level small arms, RPGs and automatic grenade launchers, G3, MG-31, M-60, SA-80, Steyr AUG, MPS, FNC1‘ and FAMAS Fl. (10%1 62 hours).
h. Live Fire Tactics including bunker,, building and trench clearing,
section and platoon ambushes, attacks and counter ambush drills (12.5%/ 78 hours).
i. Helicopter Operations including ILZ marking, rappelling and fast
roping. (3%/ 19 hours)
j. Tank Hunting with M72, RPG-7, V, mines and expedient weapons (4.50 %/ 28 hours).
k. Battle Indoctrination including close work with artillery, demolitions and gas (1%/ 6 hours).
l. Physical Training including cross country speed marches and assault courses (15%1 93 hours).

The course would he broken down into a number of phases:
Phase 1 (2 weeks)
Combat survival, mountaineering, watermanship, combat medicine
Phase 2 (2 weeks)
Demolitions, weapons, close‘ quarter battle, tank hunting, helicopter operations.
Phase 3 (2 weeks)
Weapons, demolitions, live fire tactics, battle indoctrination.
The school should have a number of foreign subject matter experts on staff to help ensure that the curriculum is first rate. Canadian staff would be expected to he graduates of Allied "combat" schools and would receive intensive preparation training over the course of a year. Classes would he
based on platoons of 36 students. Five to six classes would be taught annually. The stringent entrance requirements will keep intake low. Staff would fill all platoon and section command slots on tactical exercises with students acting as team leaders. Safety distances would have to be modified by approximately 50 % to increase realism. The number of safety staff required would need to be reduced as would the need for special identification or rules preventing them from fitting in with the unit, for example prohibitions on the safety staff from camming up and carrying
weapons. The ration scale and accommodation would be austere. There would be few amenities at the school. Students would train for war for six weeksand nothing else. The final exercise would consist of a platoon live fire air assault supported by artillery and attack helicopters followed by an attack on a bunker complex using demolitions, M72, M203 and flame throwers. Preferably, the requirement to climb a cliff could he fitted somewhere into the scenario.
On successful completion of the course the graduates would receive a ornate metallic badge, similar to those awarded for the French Commando Courses, to be worn on dress uniforms and DEUs and a subdued "Commando" flash to be worn on combat.

CONLUSION

The establishment of the Commando School just might save the Army by stopping the rot. It would mold the minds of junior leaders and, slowly fill units with tough combat trained soldiers with the correct combat mindset. Ideally in the future it would be expected that an infantry officer or sergeant major will have graduated from the Commando School and similar intensive training would become the norm throughout the Army.   :cdn:
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Ditch on February 17, 2003, 20:14:00
Nice concept, but will it fly?
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Michael Dorosh on February 17, 2003, 21:48:00
Is the flamethrower not outlawed by the Geneva Convention, and hasn‘t Canada agreed not to train in their use?

I don‘t doubt we‘d actually use them if we ever went to war, but I thought that we promised not to....

I stand open to correction, this is dimly remembered from a much earlier conversation I had years ago...
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: logistik on February 17, 2003, 21:59:00
that‘s what I was puzzled about too. There were a few mentions to the flame thrower. I hadnt even known these were used since ww2. But hey what do I know?
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Jungle on February 17, 2003, 22:21:00
Some of you always have to look for the glitch... LOL!!!
Seriously, I also believe flame throwers are out, but I remember being taught about a chinese model while in the CAR. We had one for the training but it was not functional.   :cdn:
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Ditch on February 17, 2003, 23:24:00
Section II. FORBIDDEN CONDUCT WITH RESPECT TO PERSONS

36. Weapons Employing Fire
The use of weapons which employ fire, such as tracer ammunition,flamethrowers, napalm and other incendiary agents, against targets requiring their use is not violative of international law. They should not, however, be employed in such a way as to cause unnecessary suffering to individuals.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Michael Dorosh on February 17, 2003, 23:27:00
It‘s a terrific idea, don‘t get me wrong.  

How does it fit in with our current operational tempo....if we‘ve committed 1000 to 2000 more troops to Afghanistan for six months, to be replaced after six months time, seems to me the Army will be pretty busy along with out other commitments.  

Wouldn‘t we be better off putting our resources to actual formation training (in anticipation of ground warfare in the Gulf), or mountain fighting (anticipating real combat in Afghanistan) rather than individual training in street fighting or jungle warfare?

Wouldn‘t the infantry units get more use out of doing this on a unit-by-unit basis?

Aren‘t they supposed to be doing all this stuff as a unit right now?
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Jarnhamar on February 18, 2003, 03:16:00
That sounds like an amazing course.

I think it would be a great thing for raising moral and the effectiveness of our infantry soldiers and other trades that would be interested in taking it.

Might lower the amount of people getting out of the combat arms too.  Maybe even having a course  like this tailored to each combat trade (artillery, engineers and armored). Obviously it wouldnt be a "commando" badge but something like it maybe.

We don‘t have that many combat arms soldiers though. I can see people at NDHQ easily thinking it‘s a waste of money. "Were not fightign wars were peacekeeping" or even people getting spooked because "commando" is associated with the Airborne Regiment.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Fishbone Jones on February 18, 2003, 05:58:00
I Think Ghost may be on to something. When it ultimately gets to the bean counters and gov‘t for approval, the statement that we already have JTF2 will come into play. Politicos have no concept of morale, training, etc. The bottom line is where they live.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: toms3 on February 18, 2003, 11:09:00
Quote
The stringent entrance requirements will keep intake low
This point should be looked at again.  This course should be open to more than just 36 per serial (x 6 courses), especially if it is to be used to increase moral and overall fighting skills.  Reason, at the orignal pace, it would take years to achieve a critical mass of personel with these skills.

However, overall...I find the concept interesting, I would sign up for it!
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Recce41 on February 18, 2003, 14:38:00
The course sounds like the French Commando and a Ranger course put together. A Ranger course is not a SF course, any Tom, **** or Harry can get a Ranger course in the States if you pass the PT test, etc. I have the joining instuctions somewhere and prepackage. It is open to Legs and real men both. (HAHA)
 A SF/JTF is different, 5 days of ****  and then 30 days of more **** , then 6 months of training. The Airborne did have the Airborne InDoc and for us Armour types, Armour Airborne Indoc. 9 days of ****  for a coin.
 The PF course was open to jumpers only.
 This course would be great, due to the Army is going Recce. The Inf and Armour and weeding out what courses to combine, what to throw in and what to throw out.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: radiohead on February 18, 2003, 14:55:00
The course sound great.  I just hope it‘s there by the time I get in and have some experience to apply for it.  This is teh type of program the CF needs to keep people interested, and to give us the skills needed if and when we get into combat.  It could easliy apply to Peacekeeping missions, because they do get hairy.

Its only hours to go before the big budget, I have my fingers crossed that CF gets at least 1 billion extra.  Because they are going to need it if we go Afghanistan this summer for a whole year or more.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: WB on February 18, 2003, 17:51:00
Isnt anyone afriad of the word "commando"?

I read somewhere that the CAR was originally going to be called the Airborne Commando Regt, but someone thought it was too "mean sounding".
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Jarnhamar on February 18, 2003, 20:59:00
IF this course was actually made to happen  I wonder how long it would take for someone to look at the physical requirements and say

"Due to the fact that the canadian forces has a wide varity of soldiers in various forms of fitness and size we have to lower the standards to ensure all peoples of all sizes and fitness levels are guarenteed an equal chance to take and pass this new course"
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: sgt.shmedly102 on February 19, 2003, 01:16:00
So when is DND going to lower the physical requirements of combat for the same reason?
"It‘s just too hard for some people."

Don‘t worry, DoD will attempt to follow suit.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Brad Sallows on February 19, 2003, 17:18:00
The article is from a back-issue of the Infantry Journal, dated (IIRC) from 1997 or 1998.

Jungle, did you find a way to navigate to the on-line back issues?  The "front door" only leads to volume 34.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Recce41 on February 19, 2003, 18:08:00
Its in volume 33, I found it in that one. Dated 1999.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Jungle on February 19, 2003, 19:18:00
I foung it while searching the Infantry School page on the DIN. They have links to a number of issues of the Journal.   :cdn:
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Rider Pride on February 20, 2003, 21:51:00
Hey all,
It sounds great but here are two basic reasons it will not fly...
1. MONEY, nothing more need be said there...
2. It goes against the freindly peacekeeping image our gov‘t wants the world to have of our regular (vs JTF)soliders.

And would it be opne to all army trades or just the cbt arms?
Any arguements.....  :cam:
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Jackplumber on February 27, 2003, 18:25:00
First post on this forum. I don’t think we need a commando course. More realistic training is what we should be doing with live fires being the norm rather than the exceptions. My first 9 years in the military where in the infantry and I can tell you the best training was always with ream ammo. Looking foreword to all your comments.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: RCA_UBIQUE on October 27, 2005, 15:50:29
Jungle, I like how you think. The concept of bringing our Army to a higher standard of physical fitness and combat readiness is brilliant, and something we should strive for.

cheers
John
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Tracker 23A on October 27, 2005, 16:37:18
Jungle, I think you have an excellent idea here.   The question is, have you forwarded it up through the chain so they could look at it?

I think you are onto something solid and sought out in the army, especially the Infantry and other trades where it feels like something is missing.

Dealing with some little points; I think the course would need to be a little longer than proposed since you are talking about a lot of intense and specialized training.   This just makes preparation and coordination that much more difficult for an effective course package.  

Secondly, on the point of cutting safety by 50% to increase realism, I have to say will probably not fly.   I understand the point, and on numerous occasions agree that some safety issues make training more of a burdone than effective.

On the issue of it not flying because of our "Peacekeeping" image.  Comparing the ideas and concepts of this course to those that already exist in the regular force such as:  Basic Para, Mil. Free Fall, Pathfinder, Recce Patrolman , Sniper, Urban Operations and Unarmed Combat
Those of us who have completed any combination of these courses know that peacekeeping is only one task in our job but one that does not offer a course to prepare for it.  Since we prepare for war and not peacekeeping, makes soldiers the ultimate peacekeeper, since it is war fighting skills that give the ability to make it possible.

Overall, it is a great idea and surely someone could take this idea of yours and review it.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Chop on October 27, 2005, 16:51:40
Great idea.....

Thanks for the article Jungle..
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: karl28 on October 27, 2005, 17:04:37
This would be a great Idea but didn't the original post for this say that it was from Feb 2003 ? Its been two years did the course actually come about or is it still in the planing phase ?
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: MikeH on October 27, 2005, 17:14:43
I think it would be awesome for this course to be available my grandfather took the commando course in  Achnacarry, Scotland.For the assault on Juno beach he was 16 yrs old ( he's 90 now) so everybody should be able to pass the PT if you cant your weak.Go flip burgers lol.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Slim on October 27, 2005, 19:45:39
I think it would be awesome for this course to be available my grandfather took the commando course in   Achnacarry, Scotland.For the assault on Juno beach he was 16 yrs old ( he's 90 now) so everybody should be able to pass the PT if you cant your weak.Go flip burgers lol.

Can you please start using proper punctuation and spelling. makes it easier for everyone else to read.

Thanks

Slim
STAFF
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Jungle on October 27, 2005, 20:12:20
Troops, I did not write the article... I just copied it here. It was written by a Capt who was serving in the Infantry School at the time (1999).
The course would be an excellent idea though; I did two CDO courses, and they are good trg. They are accessible to most Troops who are in reasonnably good physical condition, and who are motivated to go through a few tough weeks. We came out of it hardenned Soldiers, with new knowledge on small unit tactics, demolitions, amphibious ops etc...
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: little jim on October 28, 2005, 09:29:00
That Capt is a Major in the LER last I saw him.  Goes by "Mad Jack *****"

Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: noneck on October 28, 2005, 18:10:08
I had heard also that the author (Maj. B) was trying to put together some sort of PDS unit for contract work overseas. What happened with that and how many folks did he get? I still have his advertisement around somewhere.

Noneck
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Mark C on October 30, 2005, 20:56:55
I had heard also that the author (Maj. B) was trying to put together some sort of PDS unit for contract work overseas. What happened with that and how many folks did he get? I still have his advertisement around somewhere.

Ask "Michael Shannon", since they're one and the same....
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: baboon6 on November 02, 2005, 20:17:31
Troops, I did not write the article... I just copied it here. It was written by a Capt who was serving in the Infantry School at the time (1999).
The course would be an excellent idea though; I did two CDO courses, and they are good trg. They are accessible to most Troops who are in reasonnably good physical condition, and who are motivated to go through a few tough weeks. We came out of it hardenned Soldiers, with new knowledge on small unit tactics, demolitions, amphibious ops etc...

Were those French commando courses? Are you able to give more details? Thanks
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: geo on November 02, 2005, 22:10:19
II read somewhere that the CAR was originally going to be called the Airborne Commando Regt, but someone thought it was too "mean sounding".
The Canadian Airborne Regiment was made up of Commandos AND each Commando was approx Company strength...
1 CDO drawn from R22R
2 CDO drawn from PPCLI
3 CDO drawn from RCR
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Jungle on November 03, 2005, 17:03:05
Ghostwalk is correct: Gen Allard's intention was to call the new unit the "Canadian Commando Regiment"; however the govt of the time thought the name was too agressive (so this is nothing new), so it was decided to call the Regt's sub-units "Commandos".
Baboon6, one was with the French Army, the other was with the FFL in South America. For details, try a search of this site with "French Commando". Contact me if you still have questions after.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Old Sweat on November 03, 2005, 17:25:12
Further to Ghostwalk and Jungle, in 1966 LGen Allard visited 4 CIBG where I was serving at the time. He made a point of mentioning that the forces were forming a paracommando regiment and gave some details of the original organization. Because of force reduction the originall 1500-man force became a regiment of roughly 800 with two commandos, an airborne battery and an airborne engineer squadron as well as a headquarters and signals commando and a service commando. If I recall correctly there also was supposed to be a field service support unit to look after the housekeeping details in garrision. This was not part of the regiment.

The three commando organization was introduced circa 1978 to address manning difficulties. The rationale was that by giving each of the infantry regiments a commando to man, this would ensure (?) that the best soldiers would be cycled through the regiment.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: CanadianGuy on November 03, 2005, 17:53:12
There actually was a "Commando course" run not too long ago in August of 1988, it was 3-4 (?) weeks long and began in Meaford and was  a Reserve Army course. I was on it and made it one week but out of the 40ish candidates only 5 succeeded and can actually say they are graduates of the "Commando Course". The course content was as you would expect it to be (ie) small unit training-recce, raids, foreign weapon training and lots of physical fitness and long ruck marches. Physically it was actually quite tough for the week I lasted until injury ended my go at it. I don't know ever what became of the course as it was never run again. there were some "problems" in running it but the concept was good.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Black Watch on November 03, 2005, 18:48:42
bring it on
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: KevinB on November 03, 2005, 23:13:31
It was the Commando Leaders Course -- they was a neat little dagger pin that went along with graduating.
  I dont think it last longer than the one serial -- IIRC it was open to regs and reserves - any officer or NCO M/CPL and above.

 
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: CanadianGuy on November 04, 2005, 01:45:30
Thanks KevinB for refreshing my memory, its been a few years! It was only ran once and I don't remember any Reg Force soldiers on it but it was a mix of NCO and Officer ranks as candidates. I do remember the 35 km  cross country (and on road) navigation ex/ruck march that had to be done in less then 8 hours in serious August heat and then the 8-10km evening ruck march back to the barracks after the daytime trek was done!
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Mineguy on November 06, 2005, 16:11:52
Too bad we cant have the input of the few cdns who were in the rhodesian light infantry or selous scouts on here to what they did on "thier" commando course!
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Glorified Ape on November 30, 2005, 09:20:01
Is it me, or are there a number of grammatical errors in the article? For something printed in a journal and written by an officer, I would have expected better.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Sphinx 4/73 on January 23, 2006, 14:48:40
Having had the chance to do RM Commando course along with Para and a little diddy known as the 4/73 try out this defines the meat and potatoes solider with the nice bloody steak that drinks gas and spits fire.  Good to hear if Canada starts doing all these things that they governement says they will.  Ahhh..nothing commando course beastings.... :'(


Cheers Sphinx
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: 3rd Horseman on January 29, 2006, 18:04:39
Too bad we cant have the input of the few cdns who were in the rhodesian light infantry or selous scouts on here to what they did on "thier" commando course!

  You may want to ask around the Cdn Army for Commandos we have our fair share since we regularly sent Platoons on serials of the French Commando crse while CFE was still around. Many have their French Commado badges tucked away due the direction that they could not wear them once outside of CFE. From my understanding of the training system for that crse CFE was the only place you could get it. I dont think its relavent anymore unfortunatley due to the JTFs new role.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Jungle on January 29, 2006, 20:17:01
Many have their French Commado badges tucked away due the direction that they could not wear them once outside of CFE. From my understanding of the training system for that crse CFE was the only place you could get it.
Not exactly true; 1 Cdo sent troops to France for Cdo trg once and to French Guyana for jungle trg regularly throughout the late 80s / early 90s.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: French CDO #7 on December 16, 2006, 09:33:19
I have both French Army Basic Para Course and French Commando Course, Received the coveted "Badge #7" at Kiel in 1985. they have been in a wall frame since I left Germany. Got to like the Military Policies>:(

Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: commando gunner on December 23, 2006, 23:47:42
I have both French Army Basic Para Course and French Commando Course, Received the coveted "Badge #7" at Kiel in 1985. they have been in a wall frame since I left Germany. Got to like the Military Policies>:(




Here is a Brit view from arrse on the course.   

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=23153.htm 
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: daftandbarmy on December 24, 2006, 04:46:54

Good concept, but for what purpose?  I did the Cdo Course in the UK as well as P Coy (Pre-Para Selection). Both those courses are for selection to be part of larger amphibious and airborne brigades with more or less conventional war roles. And I can't remember much about being trained to use a special dagger or (God forbid) a flamethrower. What larger units would the graduates from these courses be part of in Canada?

Canada already seems to have a couple of pretty good 'commando type' courses that meet specific CF needs viz: CSOR and the Pathfinder Course. Of course there's also JTF2.  We therefore seem to have some pretty good stuff going on right here at home. The general proposition of the original article has already been achieved by the CF. Hurrah.

The only improvement I think we could make is to try and put more people through these kinds of courses and make it a basic standard, as opposed to something 'special'. If you talk to any WW2 veterans you will find that alot of stuff we consider 'special' training these days was SOP for the combat arms, and especially the infantry, back then. Slim, for example, was fond of saying that any unit in the 14th Army could perform as well or better than a 'special' unit. This would be a good goal for us: to build and maintain a small, but extremely high quality, army.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: old fart on December 24, 2006, 09:08:50

Here is a Brit view from arrse on the course.   

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=23153.htm 


The link did not work for me, but in my Brit days it was popular to send whole troops/platoons on the basic course, a week long or so.  Usually completed during a SUE.  Mainly confidence training, some rope work and the piece de resistance, stand in a manhole or lay down as an MBT rolled over your head. 

Oh and lots of cheap French wine...that being said SUEs with the French were not that popular back in those days, their bases were crap, and the food just as bad.  Now things were not that great for us...but better than what the French had in the 70s-80s while it was still a conscript army.

I recognise that they also offer other advanced Inf courses and have schools to train their SF.

Merry Christmas one and all... :salute: :cdn:
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: geo on December 27, 2006, 14:38:11
Old fart, if you 1st go in to arrse.co.uk 1st, the link does work........... just a pain to get there.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: pipesnake on January 02, 2007, 13:49:25

Isn't this called "Battleschool"? We did 80% of that anyway when I did it in 89.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: ArmyRick on January 02, 2007, 15:13:13
Old school Battle school, maybe.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: daftandbarmy on January 02, 2007, 15:34:12
Not sure if these courses equate to battle school, but the outline of two British Courses is described in the links below. Again, these specifically designed to select and prepare candidates for operations with - respectively -  the Parachute Regiment and the Royal Marines, and their respective brigades.

Pre-Parachute Selection
http://www.army.mod.uk/para/pegasus_p_company.htm

RM Commando Course (see 'Training' in this article)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Marines
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: pipesnake on January 02, 2007, 16:44:50
Old school Battle school, maybe.

What is Battleschool something lesser these days?
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: geo on January 03, 2007, 12:07:26
Battleschools are constantly in a state of change... responding to the demands and expectations of the CF.  At present, there are plenty of lessons learned in Afghanistan that have been & will be integrated into the training of our troops.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: spottyjohn on July 19, 2007, 05:41:48
My grandfathger was a commando in WW2 and they say it skips a generation.
All be ****ed if you will use me though.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: spottyjohn on July 20, 2007, 18:59:29
I wanted to apologize for my comment.

I do respect those that keep us safe. I know that withought the armed forces we wouldn't live in a great nation like we have.
Because of the police and the armed forces we live in a free and peaceful nation. My grandfather was a comando in WW2 and he
did an important job. We all know that Hitler had to be stopped.When I was younger I was in the reserves.

I did apply to be in the USA army a few years ago but they said that I had to get a green card.
I applied to the Canadian forces and they called me several times but I had trouble getting my
Core Documents together. The biggest challenge was my birth certificate.

In the end my wife "found" my birth certificate.
She is a pacifist mennonite and know doubt wanted to make sure I didn't join.
So I do security gaurd work.

Anyway I do not disrespect what you people do.
In fact sometimes I pray for you people and wish I could be with you all.

I wish you all the best.
 
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: daftandbarmy on July 20, 2007, 19:27:50
???

“Never retreat. Never explain. Get it done and let them howl.”

Benjamin Jowett, 1819-1893

"No F-ing Prisoners!"

LCol Hew Pike, 3 PARA, 1982
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Greymatters on July 20, 2007, 19:55:50
If you talk to any WW2 veterans you will find that alot of stuff we consider 'special' training these days was SOP for the combat arms, and especially the infantry, back then. Slim, for example, was fond of saying that any unit in the 14th Army could perform as well or better than a 'special' unit. This would be a good goal for us: to build and maintain a small, but extremely high quality, army.

A lot of this stuff is the same type of thinking we used to discuss back in late 1980's when I first got in.  However at the time the power that be did not believe we needed that kind of training.  Its only nowadays that higher-ups are realizing that we really need this kind of training and are starting to support it.   
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: 3rd Herd on July 20, 2007, 21:04:05
A lot of this stuff is the same type of thinking we used to discuss back in late 1980's when I first got in.  However at the time the power that be did not believe we needed that kind of training.  Its only nowadays that higher-ups are realizing that we really need this kind of training and are starting to support it.   

No, they are the ones twenty years ago advocating this kind of training BUT didn't have the rank and now do.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: commando gunner on July 20, 2007, 23:07:33
My grandfathger was a commando in WW2 and they say it skips a generation.
All be ****ed if you will use me though.

What skips- an inability to spell?
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Greymatters on July 21, 2007, 22:10:12
No, they are the ones twenty years ago advocating this kind of training BUT didn't have the rank and now do. 

Hmmm, yes, that would be more accurate.
Title: French Commando Re: Older Posts
Post by: Lockbo on June 02, 2012, 18:46:38
I did the French Commando course in 1986 with 2 VP in Germany , then onto the Jump Course in 1987, both the same length of time and both can bust your balls. I agree with # 7, I was at #4, great course but now a badge on the wall that we can't wear. I am sure there are a lot of other specialty courses out there that the troops can't wear, no sense showing anyone what we have done on our uniforms. Thanks to the talking heads in Ottawa for policies that reflect their issues with troops having some distinction that shows the desk jockeys up....just sayin..
Title: Re: French Commando Re: Older Posts
Post by: George Wallace on June 02, 2012, 20:54:34
I did the French Commando course in 1986 with 2 VP in Germany , then onto the Jump Course in 1987, both the same length of time and both can bust your balls. I agree with # 7, I was at #4, great course but now a badge on the wall that we can't wear. I am sure there are a lot of other specialty courses out there that the troops can't wear, no sense showing anyone what we have done on our uniforms. Thanks to the talking heads in Ottawa for policies that reflect their issues with troops having some distinction that shows the desk jockeys up....just sayin..

Ummmmmm.   Not to be condescending, but we are not the Boy Scouts.  Do we really need to wear "Merritt Badges" to show off to others what we have/may have done?
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: ArmyRick on June 02, 2012, 21:53:16
How about an MIR Commando badge? I would have qualified from my time on TCAT in 2008....
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 02, 2012, 22:33:04
Lets get rid of all our trade badges, branch/Corps badges.  Cornflakes for all.  All Mess Kits will look the same.  No skill or qual badges. 
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: George Wallace on June 02, 2012, 22:40:47
Lets get rid of all our trade badges, branch/Corps badges.  Cornflakes for all.  All Mess Kits will look the same.  No skill or qual badges.

Come on!  I know you don't want to give up your spurs.   ;D
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: daftandbarmy on June 03, 2012, 02:45:38
Lets get rid of all our trade badges, branch/Corps badges.  Cornflakes for all.  All Mess Kits will look the same.  No skill or qual badges.

Paul? Paul Helleyer? Is that you?  ;D
Title: Re: French Commando Re: Older Posts
Post by: PrairieThunder on June 03, 2012, 02:53:17
Ummmmmm.   Not to be condescending, but we are not the Boy Scouts.  Do we really need to wear "Merritt Badges" to show off to others what we have/may have done?

Merritt is a nice town, I'd wear one  ;)
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: ArmyRick on June 03, 2012, 12:48:55
Anybody remember that Dr Seuss cartoon where some of the dudes had stars on their bellys and the others did not? Than they paid a dude and went through a machine that gave them stars on their bellies so they could all look the same.... I guess the ones without stars envied the ones with stars (Hmmmm, sound familiar, kind of like "how come they get a cool badge and I don't?")

Maybe we should bin defence ethics training and have everybody watch Dr Seuss videos...
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Scott on June 03, 2012, 13:17:17
One of those boat people will read this and stroke out...the heresy. But not before mashing the reply button to tell us to leave the curls alone.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Jungle on June 03, 2012, 16:12:36
Lets get rid of all our trade badges, branch/Corps badges.  Cornflakes for all.  All Mess Kits will look the same.  No skill or qual badges.

We could also remove rank badges... I bet we would see a lot of distressed people; some people wear their rank, for others, it's the rank that carries them.
Title: Re: French Commando Re: Older Posts
Post by: aesop081 on June 03, 2012, 16:16:59
their issues with troops having some distinction that shows the desk jockeys up....just sayin..

Yes, all of us riding desks in Ottawa have nothing better to do than worry about troops looking more hardcore than us.

 ::)
Title: Re: French Commando Re: Older Posts
Post by: X Royal on June 04, 2012, 04:28:40
Yes, all of us riding desks in Ottawa have nothing better to do than worry about troops looking more hardcore than us.

 ::)
I suspect that would depend on if "riding desks in Ottawa" is a stop on your career path or a career in it's self.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: MikeL on January 02, 2013, 15:24:57
I know the discussion is old and it would appear that such a course most likely won't be developed.  Although I believe it would be a great course where soldiers can challenge themselves and learn new skills as well as build upon skills/knowledge they already have.   Plus not all members want to be in CANSOF,  but still want to strive to be the best at what they do.

There actually was a "Commando course" run not too long ago in August of 1988 .... 40ish candidates only 5 succeeded and can actually say they are graduates of the "Commando Course".

IMO a attrition rate like this would be counter productive.  The course shouldn't be easy,  but it shouldn't have the majority of the course RTU'd for injuries and failing POs.

Keeping the course realistic/relevant for the Army as it isn't training members for SOF,  but giving them skills that will be beneficial for the regular Army.

From the original article,  there is a few things that can probably be removed IMO such as flamethrowers and the portions below


Quote
c. Combat Survival including resistance to interrogation
AFAIK this is what CAC Lvl C is for


Quote
f. Combat Medicine including IVs, CPR, practical gunshot training and drug administration (2.5%1 16 hours).
This is also covered during First Aid/Combat First Aid and TCCC.

Quote
g. Foreign Weapons including training on all Russian company level small arms, RPGs and automatic grenade launchers, G3, MG-31, M-60, SA-80, Steyr AUG, MPS, FNC1‘ and FAMAS Fl. (10%1 62 hours).
Not sure how easy it would be to get some of these weapons,  as well as ammo for them.  As well,  the Russian/Soviet Bloc weapons are covered during unit training/work up training.

Quote
j. Tank Hunting with M72, RPG-7, V, mines and expedient weapons (4.50 %/ 28 hours).
IMO it might be better to stick with weapons already in use by the CF for this.


As well,  this isn't a PLQ course but students should be put in leadership portions during the field portion;  perhaps even having a MCpl or Sgt acting as the Platoon Commander, etc.  I think a course like this would have a mixture of CQB/FIBUA training(with some CQC) as well as patrolling in urban and rural areas,  raids, ambushes,  selecting/marking HLZs,  basic mountaineering/rappelling(focused on conducting combat operations in a mountain enviroment),  employing helicopters and zodiacs for insert/extract(start and end of FTX),  leadership skills, PT(runs,  long ruck marches, circuit training/HIT, swimming),etc.  Reinforcing and adding to Infantry/combat skill sets.  Making sure of course that this "Commando" course is unique and isn't too similar to already existing courses such as Basic Recce, Basic Mountain Ops, etc.

Students would be physically fit,  confident in the use and employment of weapons used in a Infantry platoon,  land nav(map/compass and GPS), how to talk on a radio/Voice Procedure,  etc.  Open to NCMs and Officers of the Combat Arms some Combat Support/CSS pers(such as Sigs an Medics), etc.  Open to both Regular Force and Reservists.

I am far from a SME on the subject,  these are just my thoughts from reading the article and comments.



Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: KevinB on January 02, 2013, 17:25:41
The short lived Commando course was prior to JTF-2 and the later creation of CANSOFCOM and its subunits.

  Want a Commando course now --> SOAC or the CSOR course  (which is SOBQ right?)


 


Students would be physically fit,  confident in the use and employment of weapons used in a Infantry platoon,  land nav(map/compass and GPS), how to talk on a radio/Voice Procedure,  etc. 



Infantry Battle School?

Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: MikeL on January 02, 2013, 17:35:01
Want a Commando course now --> SOAC or the CSOR course

Not everyone wants to go CANSOF, or pass selection/SFC/SOAC.

or the CSOR course  (which is SOBQ right?)

SOBQ was the CSOR Operator course name,  but it is now called SFC. 


Infantry Battle School?

Are you saying the pre-reqs would be skills possessed by those who have completed Infantry DP1?
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Infanteer on January 02, 2013, 18:36:36
I know the discussion is old and it would appear that such a course most likely won't be developed.  Although I believe it would be a great course where soldiers can challenge themselves and learn new skills as well as build upon skills/knowledge they already have.   Plus not all members want to be in CANSOF,  but still want to strive to be the best at what they do.

Instead of having another course that takes soldiers away from home and puts a burden on units to either run or pony up staff, why don't we include activities like this in more collective training events?
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: wildman0101 on January 02, 2013, 20:04:31
Skeletor,,, Arer you talking "Combat Inteligence Operator"
Infanteer... Uh-Huh.
SSF 1977-1986 "CIO"
I know Old Guard Old School. Lest I Trained like the old Guard
The Fst Special Service Force.   AKA Known as
"The Devil's Brigade.
What you got? LOL
Cheer's. Scoty B










Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: wildman0101 on January 02, 2013, 20:07:25
Skeletor,
Reread your initial post. Opp's.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 02, 2013, 20:52:35
Skeletor,,, Arer you talking "Combat Inteligence Operator"
Infanteer... Uh-Huh.
SSF 1977-1986 "CIO"
I know Old Guard Old School. Lest I Trained like the old Guard
The Fst Special Service Force.   AKA Known as
"The Devil's Brigade.
What you got? LOL
Cheer's. Scoty B

 ???
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Jungle on January 02, 2013, 21:21:06
???

The guy is living in the past...

Wildman0101, get over it man... I also spent a few years in the SSF (in the CAR, actually) but I don't mention it in every single one of my posts.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Jarnhamar on January 02, 2013, 23:01:38
Instead of having another course that takes soldiers away from home and puts a burden on units to either run or pony up staff, why don't we include activities like this in more collective training events?

I think a 'commando course' even in name would bend a lot of noses out of shape.

I'd like to see a month to three months devoted to section and platoon level training with an emphasis on comms, first aid stand training (and not just st-johns stuff), ranges including foreign weapons, various insertion/extraction methods, patrolling.   Basic infantry stuff (including an emphasis on working with other combat arms and combat support trades)

Huge issue is manning. It's hard to train a section when we have 3 or 4 man sections. We could fill up a section to 8 or 9 dudes but then we have a platoon with 2 sections minus.  (Maybe mech infantry doesn't have the manning issues the light side has?)
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: daftandbarmy on January 07, 2013, 15:27:13
I think a 'commando course' even in name would bend a lot of noses out of shape.

I'd like to see a month to three months devoted to section and platoon level training with an emphasis on comms, first aid stand training (and not just st-johns stuff), ranges including foreign weapons, various insertion/extraction methods, patrolling.   Basic infantry stuff (including an emphasis on working with other combat arms and combat support trades)

Huge issue is manning. It's hard to train a section when we have 3 or 4 man sections. We could fill up a section to 8 or 9 dudes but then we have a platoon with 2 sections minus.  (Maybe mech infantry doesn't have the manning issues the light side has?)

Well, I did the All Arms Commando Course in the UK. It has been the same course - pretty much - since WW2 and it fulfills the same role: to prepare individuals to join 3 Commando Brigade. The tets are the same as for the Royal Marines' recruitsand Officers, but they do their tests during their receruit training.

The AACC prepares troops of all ranks /arms/services to participate in an amphibious 'light' brigade.... as indivuiduals. They are all already trained in their functional skills (as arty/engr/cook/dentist etc). There are some 'team' activities during the course, like section attacks, recce patrols, raids etc, but these are of secondary importance to the individual commando tests - which are quite difficult. They get the other 'team' stuff when they integrate into their Bde units.

There are no 'PO check equivalents' for anything except those Commando tests which, in my estimation, are harder than anything the CF does outside of the CANSOF envelope. But the reason they do them is to make sure that, if an EME tech (or equivalent) needs to land across a beach - or from a helicopter - and carry his bergan 10 miles overland to his unit, he won't collapse in a heap and have to be casevaced. They also need to be able to paticipate in limited 'infantry type' operations to help with area defence, or to clear out local enemy patrols etc. And yes, you CAN train a Navy Dentist to carry a 70lb bergen 20 miles at night and be a good patrol member! I've seen it happen with my own eyes!

IMHO, if we don't have a similar purpose or end state, then we would likely be wasting our time.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Towards_the_gap on January 07, 2013, 16:11:20
Precisely.

We do not have a 'commando' element, therefore why have a commando course? In a time of increasingly limited funds and resources, perhaps we should sustain what we have. And that is the current system of specialty courses for select individuals, HII, B Para (and everything afterwards), UOI, Cbt Diver.

Rather than try to create a new, ninja-skilz, GI Joe course, solely to satisfy international penis envy.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: MikeL on January 07, 2013, 16:27:14
Instead of having another course that takes soldiers away from home and puts a burden on units to either run or pony up staff, why don't we include activities like this in more collective training events?
Ack,  having this as part of collective/unit training may be the best way;  similar to what OZ commented.
I'd like to see a month to three months devoted to section and platoon level training with an emphasis on comms, first aid stand training (and not just st-johns stuff), ranges including foreign weapons, various insertion/extraction methods, patrolling.   Basic infantry stuff (including an emphasis on working with other combat arms and combat support trades)

We do not have a 'commando' element, therefore why have a commando course?
Names can be changed,  if a course were to come up similar to what has been proposed it wouldn't have to be a "commando course".

In a time of increasingly limited funds and resources, perhaps we should sustain what we have. And that is the current system of specialty courses for select individuals, HII, B Para (and everything afterwards), UOI, Cbt Diver.

Looking at the big picture I concur; as well some of the proposed ideas could be integrated into unit training, etc.  Plus existing courses also have elements of what has been proposed.

Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: daftandbarmy on January 07, 2013, 17:42:41
As opposed to a Commando Course, I would support the idea of creating some kind of Canadian version of the Cambrian Patrol Competition as a way to promote a higher standrd of soldiering skills, particularly within the combat arms, and to give the keeners something to 'aim' for.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: ArmyRick on January 07, 2013, 17:44:56
That is a brilliant idea! I know of how hard I have seen guys in battalions compete during section and platoon mil skills comps. So having each unit (that can) send a section to a Canadian version of Cambrian is an awesome idea!
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: daftandbarmy on January 07, 2013, 17:52:16
That is a brilliant idea! I know of how hard I have seen guys in battalions compete during section and platoon mil skills comps. So having each unit (that can) send a section to a Canadian version of Cambrian is an awesome idea!

You'd also probably be able to attract a large crowd from the rest of the world's armies (for a fee), especially if the event involved canoes and several hundred miles of travel through the Canadian wilderness... just about every other guy I met from a European army seemed to want to do that - the maniacs.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Robert0288 on January 07, 2013, 18:19:43
Huntsville to Pet through Algonquin park.  100+km of canoeing, portages, bugs, swamps and hills.  What could be better?  Or you can change it up and stick it somewhere in the Canadian shield, then the rockies the next year.  We don't lack for geographical variance that's for sure.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: MikeL on January 07, 2013, 18:32:51
The idea of a Canadian version of the Cambrian patrol is interesting,  but what would be required for it?  That will also determine where it can take place,  example would there be a live fire component? - ball, tracer, HE, etc  What would be needed in terms of approvals for firing blank rounds in Algonquin park?

With regards to canoes,  is that a relevant skill?  What I mean is,  are canoes a realistic insert/extract method?  Or would it be better off with a Zodiac/raft?  And/or other means such as including a Air Mobile/Assault portion?


Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: dapaterson on January 07, 2013, 18:49:16
Give 'em a compass, drop them in Swift Current, and tell them to keep going west until they hit the mountains.

...then the competition begins...
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Bread Guy on January 07, 2013, 19:17:21
Give 'em a compass, drop them in Swift Current Red Lake, and tell them to keep going west north-northeast until they hit the mountains Fort Severn.

...then the competition begins...
FTFY
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: daftandbarmy on January 07, 2013, 19:22:24
Here's a suggestion for some 'Canadian Heritage' type routes. Of course, the 'Samuel Hearn diet' would become all the rage after we introduced this event to the world....  ;D
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: PPCLI Guy on January 07, 2013, 22:59:11
As opposed to a Commando Course, I would support the idea of creating some kind of Canadian version of the Cambrian Patrol Competition as a way to promote a higher standrd of soldiering skills, particularly within the combat arms, and to give the keeners something to 'aim' for.

I love this idea.  Do you mind if I run with it a bit?
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: George Wallace on January 07, 2013, 23:32:20
I love this idea.  Do you mind if I run with it a bit?

These competitions are not new.  I know that "RamsHead" used to be the Armour Gunnery competition out in 1 Bde in the Cougar days.

I don't know when all the Corps and Branches did away with many of these competitions, but budget cuts have had their toll on them, and the camaraderie and exchange of ideas that they promoted is gone.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: daftandbarmy on January 08, 2013, 13:05:21
I love this idea.  Do you mind if I run with it a bit?

Are you kidding? gogogogogogo......

But remember, no running in combat boots or your career could be at risk.  ;D
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: PPCLI Guy on January 08, 2013, 13:23:11
Thanks - and of course I will take all the credit, what with you being a Mo guy and all.... >:D

I am thinking of making it truly Canadian, and doing it in Feb, with tent groups.  Dundurn is a possible location.  Outline plan would be a three year trial - Year 1 - 1 CMBG and LFWA only, Year 2 invite the Army, Year 3 invite the world.

This is a perfect example of training ideas that have low impact on resources, but high payoff for their training value.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: daftandbarmy on January 08, 2013, 13:27:27
Thanks - and of course I will take all the credit, what with you being a Mo guy and all.... >:D

I am thinking of making it truly Canadian, and doing it in Feb, with tent groups.  Dundurn is a possible location.  Outline plan would be a three year trial - Year 1 - 1 CMBG and LFWA only, Year 2 invite the Army, Year 3 invite the world.

This is a perfect example of training ideas that have low impact on resources, but high payoff for their training value.

You are welcome to the credit, as long as I get to lead the first CF summit team to Mt Barbeau, followed by the first CF team to hike to the North Pole. No pressure Herr General!  ;D
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Bread Guy on January 08, 2013, 13:31:43
Thanks - and of course I will take all the credit, what with you being a Mo guy and all.... >:D

I am thinking of making it truly Canadian, and doing it in Feb, with tent groups.  Dundurn is a possible location.  Outline plan would be a three year trial - Year 1 - 1 CMBG and LFWA only, Year 2 invite the Army, Year 3 invite the world.

This is a perfect example of training ideas that have low impact on resources, but high payoff for their training value.
More on the same theme here for ya - grew out of discussion re:  whether patrolling skills are fading:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/index.php/topic,102975.0/all.html
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Robert0288 on January 08, 2013, 15:36:04
Quote
I am thinking of making it truly Canadian, and doing it in Feb, with tent groups
You evil person  >:D
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Target Up on January 08, 2013, 15:40:19
Thanks - and of course I will take all the credit, what with you being a Mo guy and all.... >:D

I am thinking of making it truly Canadian, and doing it in Feb, with tent groups.  Dundurn is a possible location.  Outline plan would be a three year trial - Year 1 - 1 CMBG and LFWA only, Year 2 invite the Army, Year 3 invite the world.

This is a perfect example of training ideas that have low impact on resources, but high payoff for their training value.

Didn't we used to call that Rapier Thrust one upon a unicorn?
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: daftandbarmy on January 08, 2013, 23:34:24
Counting my lucky stars. This took place in the same area I was in last Friday. Talking to soem Alpine Club guys who have more detials, I assume they were following our tracks.  We got out as it started to snow heavily and I guess they encountered over a foot of new stuff on the fairly firm base layer we skied in on:

Man injured in avalanche on Vancouver Island

Comox RCMP say 4 people were caught in minor slide

Four men were caught in an avalanche on Vancouver Island on Tuesday, but only one 18-year-old suffered a minor leg injury, the RCMP has confirmed.

The small slide happened near Moat and Circlet Lakes in Strathcona Provincial Park, according to a statement issued by Cpl. Darren Lagen.
"The group used a cellphone to call for help, leading to the activation of the Comox Valley Search and Rescue Team and the Comox Valley RCMP," said Lagen.

A spokesman for Comox Search and Rescue said it appears nobody was buried or trapped in the slide.

The group was about two kilometres away from the Mount Washington Alpine Resort when the slide occurred, an official at the resort said.
RCMP said a command centre had been set up at the Raven Lodge at the resort and rescue technicians were using snow machines to reach the group.

The Vancouver Island Avalanche Centre rated the avalanche danger for areas at the treeline or higher as considerable on Tuesday.
Heavy snow is expected in the area overnight as part of a major storm passing over southern B.C.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2013/01/08/bc-avalanche-mount-washington.html

Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: UnwiseCritic on March 01, 2013, 01:01:36
With regards to canoes,  is that a relevant skill?  What I mean is,  are canoes a realistic insert/extract method?  Or would it be better off with a Zodiac/raft?

As long as it's paddling.

Having water insertion techniques would be a great skill to have as radar equipment is becoming more available and cheaper. Yet how easy would it be too sneak in by sea,. Nobody watches coastlines. And having courses that offer such extremes in training is exactly why a lot of young guys sign up in the first place. It gives them something to be proud of. As there isnt much of that left in the CF, as most courses tend to be push courses. Plus giving someone a canoe, pack, rifle and compass is a fairly cheap training trick and I bet people would be volunteering for the course left, right and center. And this would bring competition levels up within the battalions as well as fitness levels as well as refining individual soldiering skills. And anyone scared to call it a commando course... Just tell em to stuff it. It's the army.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: daftandbarmy on March 01, 2013, 01:37:16
With regards to canoes,  is that a relevant skill?  What I mean is,  are canoes a realistic insert/extract method?  Or would it be better off with a Zodiac/raft?

As long as it's paddling.

Having water insertion techniques would be a great skill to have as radar equipment is becoming more available and cheaper. Yet how easy would it be too sneak in by sea,. Nobody watches coastlines. And having courses that offer such extremes in training is exactly why a lot of young guys sign up in the first place. It gives them something to be proud of. As there isnt much of that left in the CF, as most courses tend to be push courses. Plus giving someone a canoe, pack, rifle and compass is a fairly cheap training trick and I bet people would be volunteering for the course left, right and center. And this would bring competition levels up within the battalions as well as fitness levels as well as refining individual soldiering skills. And anyone scared to call it a commando course... Just tell em to stuff it. It's the army.

Some interesting shaky boats stuff in here FYI:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Black-Water-Strength-Don-Camsell/dp/0753505126

There is still a place for self-propelled boats on ops, but their deployment needs to be managed within the context of a much larger op, or you are likely dooming the troops involved to extinction. It's a special skill at more than just the paddlers' level.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Fishbone Jones on March 01, 2013, 03:52:50
I took a kayak course, in the 70's, based in Norway.

It was run by the SAS. At the time kayaks were one of their main methods of ingressing from the water.

They called kayaks canoes.

They thought big rubber rafts were clumsy and not very stealthy.

They also thought that going into a 'bad' area, all in one big, clumsy, rubber boat, was not a very good idea.

Terminology might be the key here. Canoes to Brits are not open top native type watercraft that we think of in North America. Kayaks also fit the nomenclature.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: little jim on March 01, 2013, 05:46:02
With regards to canoes,  is that a relevant skill?  What I mean is,  are canoes a realistic insert/extract method?  Or would it be better off with a Zodiac/raft?

As long as it's paddling.

Having water insertion techniques would be a great skill to have as radar equipment is becoming more available and cheaper. Yet how easy would it be too sneak in by sea,. Nobody watches coastlines. And having courses that offer such extremes in training is exactly why a lot of young guys sign up in the first place. It gives them something to be proud of. As there isnt much of that left in the CF, as most courses tend to be push courses. Plus giving someone a canoe, pack, rifle and compass is a fairly cheap training trick and I bet people would be volunteering for the course left, right and center. And this would bring competition levels up within the battalions as well as fitness levels as well as refining individual soldiering skills. And anyone scared to call it a commando course... Just tell em to stuff it. It's the army.

Interesting comments given some of the other posts.

The AUS Commando Regiment has an amphib qualification as one of the two cricitcal methods of insertion that you need to have to get your green beret (their green).  Agreed that with a small (under five metre) zodiac you can insert anywhere on a coast line.  This is quite a thing to deal with when planning a defence of a coast line.

There are two things to consider, especially as the current doctrine seems to be rooted in the Korean war:

Yes you can land troops anywhere in a small zodiac.  Problem is that to bring in vehicles and support you start limiting the places you can get into.  Fine for raids but in todays world.....there are only some many places you can bring support ships.

Even a bunch of 470s require a fair amount of support for training in particular.  Unless that is your primary effort then it is probably not worth it - look at the problems the Engr have with keeping up their Dive Troops.  Back when they were 4 RAR(CDO) they off loaded all their COWs onto 1 CDO Regt.

The AUS ability to jump a company into the sea 40 nautical miles off-shore and have them established on the shore that night is similar to other types of deterant (like nuclear) - it makes sense for AUS to have that capability given their geo location and their governments stated foreign policy goals in the region.

Is it a capability Canada needs? 

I know the USMC play with small boats as well but no detailed knowledge of that. 

I think if you want to play with boats it goes back to getting onto the PPF course. 

That's probably the direction it should take rather than the "Badge-finder" it seems to have become in the past years.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: daftandbarmy on March 01, 2013, 11:26:29
I took a kayak course, in the 70's, based in Norway.

It was run by the SAS. At the time kayaks were one of their main methods of ingressing from the water.

They called kayaks canoes.

They thought big rubber rafts were clumsy and not very stealthy.

They also thought that going into a 'bad' area, all in one big, clumsy, rubber boat, was not a very good idea.

Terminology might be the key here. Canoes to Brits are not open top native type watercraft that we think of in North America. Kayaks also fit the nomenclature.

We worked with these guys regularly in 45 Cdo. They did the beach recces for all the big exercises by either 'swimming' or 'canoeing' hence the qualification SC - or Swimmer Canoeist.

I recall that one of their most important 'special' tools was a long stick which, dipped into the water ahead of the boat as they went in, gave immediate feedback on whether or not it was possible to get a boat onto shore without sinking. So much for fancy-tech.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: ArmyRick on March 01, 2013, 11:29:48
I wonder what would happen if we got involved in an operation that was very heavy in littoral environment? I think our priorities would change quickly in the CF and there would be some gucci kit and training available for units outside CANSOFCOM.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on March 01, 2013, 12:08:13
I wonder what would happen if we got involved in an operation that was very heavy in littoral environment? I think our priorities would change quickly in the CF and there would be some gucci kit and training available for units outside CANSOFCOM.

The French Troupes de la Marine and French Foreign Legion make extensive use of small boats and kayaks in French Guiana.  Of course it is the only way they are able to get around. 

(https://www.nytsyn.com/photo_previews/0022/8972/228972_525_380_w.jpg)

If the CF were required to conduct operations in a place like the Congo I would imagine we would do some small boat training.  I don't really see a need for a course for this sort of thing though.  Basic Recce already incorporates the use of zodiacs into the curriculum and I believe their are enough pers in a Battalion with the skills that if we needed to run some training we would be able to ramp it up fairly easy.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Towards_the_gap on March 01, 2013, 12:33:10
A la SPARTAN BEAR I?


Don't forget you also have CER's full of dudes trained as small boat operators.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: dapaterson on March 01, 2013, 13:00:47
Any course can be a commando course if you don't wear underwear.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on March 01, 2013, 19:54:43
A la SPARTAN BEAR I?


Don't forget you also have CER's full of dudes trained as small boat operators.

I wouldn't use SPARTAN BEAR I as an example; however, the year before that N Coy did a Coy raid in support of the Basic Recce Patrolman course and crossed the Ottawa River in three waves using Zodiac's.  Recce had inserted early as well and established a beach head for us. 

As well we ran a swift water rescue course this past summer at 3 RCR, with the intent of eventually including it in the BRP.  We took our zodiac's down some pretty heavy rapids as well and they held up quite nicely.  For this training we sourced it from outside the army and got support from Wilderness Tours, who were absolutely wonderful might I add.  I will post some pictures:

(http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/536204_365511156861282_1303144730_n.jpg)

(http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/224578_365511286861269_642320859_n.jpg)

(http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/68026_373367556075642_1923339156_n.jpg)

(http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/543288_373367679408963_719183268_n.jpg)

We already do a lot of the stuff mentioned in this post in the Light Battalion's its just nobody knows about it because they think this is still WWI and all we do is march everywhere with our rucksacks.

We have been working on some other things as well as part of our plan to get ready for the incoming Chinook Sqn.  One of our biggest projects is our new Air-Mobile/Airborne CP for C/S 0 and 0A.  We recently successfully airdropped our Tac CP, here are some photos:

(http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/477996_391110497634681_1426486425_o.jpg)  (0A trailers w/equipment and ATV's packed for air-drop)

(http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/465648_391110690967995_2116563224_o.jpg) (Loading them into a Herc)

(http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/463631_391112257634505_1307899217_o.jpg) (prepping to drop)

(http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/704510_391113407634390_1641225356_o.jpg) (the drop)

(http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/267931_433296853416045_518749819_n.jpg) (We also just dropped our CP in North Carolina on ex with the 82nd Airborne IOT confirm our ability to use it on an op)

(http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/382241_433297310082666_827153872_n.jpg)

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152389610240531 (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152389610240531) (Video of the CP drop)

I don't really see a need for anymore courses, if anything what the army needs to do is rationalize and stream-line the courses they have right now.  For instance, some of the courses such as Basic Hel Ops/LZDZ Controller/HII should be combined into one course, call it air-mobile ops course.  Not only would this save money on airframes but you could rationalize a schedule to make the course involve less training days while hitting the same POs/EOs.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Jungle on March 01, 2013, 21:23:10
The French Troupes de la Marine and French Foreign Legion make extensive use of small boats and kayaks in French Guiana.  Of course it is the only way they are able to get around.

Actually, we used pirogues to get around. Other small boats can be of limited use, but the pirogue is the best all-around vehicle out there.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on March 01, 2013, 21:36:29
Actually, we used pirogues to get around. Other small boats can be of limited use, but the pirogue is the best all-around vehicle out there.

Thanks, I have seen photos from French Guiana but was not sure what they called their boats.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Infanteer on March 01, 2013, 21:42:45
I don't really see a need for anymore courses, if anything what the army needs to do is rationalize and stream-line the courses they have right now.  For instance, some of the courses such as Basic Hel Ops/LZDZ Controller/HII should be combined into one course, call it air-mobile ops course.  Not only would this save money on airframes but you could rationalize a schedule to make the course involve less training days while hitting the same POs/EOs.

I like the cut of your jib.

As well, I've seen 3 RCR's concept work on HQ and service support and its pretty good.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Towards_the_gap on March 01, 2013, 22:44:32
@ RoyalDrew:

I found those photos of the swift water course your guys took when perusing sharepoint, and my oh my did I go off on a rant on my ops and training.

The rant went something like this:

'Can any of you boy wonders tell me why no one has thought of this type of training for us, seeing as we are supposed to be SME's on water crossing?? No idea? That's ok then, we'll just stick to revisiting WWII gap crossing tactics and planning for the 3rd Shock Army to cross the IGB.....' The captain who I was ranting at just shrugged.

3 RCR is certainly the place to be for forward, outside the box thinking. I envy you guys sometimes.

Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: daftandbarmy on March 02, 2013, 00:42:59
I like the cut of your jib.

As well, I've seen 3 RCR's concept work on HQ and service support and its pretty good.

Whoa... what is this, a PPCLI - RCR detente?

Don't ruin yet another illusion for me.  :crybaby:
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: PuckChaser on March 02, 2013, 12:41:00
We have been working on some other things as well as part of our plan to get ready for the incoming Chinook Sqn.  One of our biggest projects is our new Air-Mobile/Airborne CP for C/S 0 and 0A.  We recently successfully airdropped our Tac CP, here are some photos:

As a soldier, that's pretty cool. As an operator, its awesome. Was that a gopro attached to one of the CP rigs? It doesn't seem to impact the ground very hard, which would be my only concern with the 5121s being so tempermental at times.
Title: Re: The Canadian Commando Course
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on March 02, 2013, 12:50:57
As a soldier, that's pretty cool. As an operator, its awesome. Was that a gopro attached to one of the CP rigs? It doesn't seem to impact the ground very hard, which would be my only concern with the 5121s being so tempermental at times.

That was a gopro attached to the rig and the equipment worked fine.  We have been working on this for awhile and have got the packing and manifesting of equipment down pretty well now.  It takes us an hour and half from the time of the drop to move all the equipment of the dropzone and have the CP fully functioning. 

On top of this we have qualified a bunch of sigs guys as jumpers to be able to jump with the CP and set it up.