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Offline Furniture

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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2018, 02:49:15 »
My section is currently going through the process to have meals authorized at public expense because of our hours. When I get the memo, and minutes back I will PM the details to the OP for his use.

If it's reasonable I'll add the details to this forum.

Offline Milhouser911

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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2019, 16:15:10 »
Bump.  Any info, Furniture?

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Offline Halifax_Sailor

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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2019, 20:51:50 »
Hey there,

I've tried to do some research online and on this website, and I can't find anything that states the maximum number of hours a member can work in a day with or without compensation. Basically, my Sgt has it in his head right now that he can have me work 20 hours a day, 5 days a week because "We're in the Army". I'm a Navy guy, working at an Army unit (in Garrison) and this seems absolutely outrageous to me. Is there a policy (CFAO, QR&O, DAOD, etc.) that states how many hours a member can be forced to work in a day for non-operational reasons?

Thanks.

Offline AbdullahD

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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2019, 21:09:24 »
This link may be of some help..

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/programs/employment-standards/federal-standards/work-hours.html

Check out the hours of work pamphlet on there too... I'd suspect federal law applies to you guys, when your not in a theatre of war...

I am interested in how many hours you guys can be forced to work and under what stipulations.

Abdullah

Offline PPCLI Guy

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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2019, 21:29:04 »
This is not McDonald.  Work until the work is done.  Then come to work, and do work again...until the work is done.  WTF dude?
"The higher the rank, the more necessary it is that boldness should be accompanied by a reflective mind....for with increase in rank it becomes always a matter less of self-sacrifice and more a matter of the preservation of others, and the good of the whole."

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Online mariomike

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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2019, 21:40:12 »
I am interested in how many hours you guys can be forced to work and under what stipulations.

Saw this for drivers,

A-LM-158-005/AG-001 - TRANSPORTATION MANUAL

HOURS OF WORK
66. The National Safety Code (NSC) for motor carriers is designed to establish a comprehensive code of
minimum performance standards for the safe operation of commercial vehicles. The Code applies to all persons
responsible for the operation of commercial vehicles on the road, including trucks, buses, tractors and trailers.
67. DND operators of commercial vehicles will maintain logbooks and adhere to DND regulations regarding
hours of work unless an operational necessity dictates otherwise. In cases where an operational necessity exists,
a Commander of a Command, on the advice of the Command TA can approve exceptions to the hours of work
regulations.
68. DND hours of work regulations are detailed in TD 527.

A-LM-158-005/AG-001
2
(TD 527)
Serial Regulated Operation Time
1 Maximum Unbroken Driving Period 4-1/2 h
2 Maximum Daily Driving Time 13 h
3 Maximum Daily Duty Time 14 h
4 Minimum Breaks after 4-1/2 h driving or breaks of at least 15 minutes.
Within or immediately after 4-1/2 h driving that together total not less than
45 min
5 Daily Rest Period - 8 consecutive hours of off-duty time. 8 h
6 Maximum Daily Driving/Duty Time Special Purpose MSE (SNIC) 12 h
7 Maximum Daily Driving/Duty Time when a vehicle is carrying dangerous goods 8 h
NOTES
1. Unbroken Driving Period – the time spent operating the vehicle without a break.
2. Driving Time – the time spent at the driving controls of a vehicle with the engine running.
3. Duty Time – the total time covers all time spent on duty actually driving or servicing
vehicles, loading, unloading or carrying out other work or “on duty” activity (e.g., mandatory
sports or training).

4. Breaks – means any uninterrupted period during a duty period, which the driver does not
count towards the calculation of the maximum daily duty period.
5. Daily Rest Period – consecutive period in which a driver is not on duty.
6. Daily Driving/Duty Time (SNIC) – total period to include vehicle inspection and operating.
7. When a vehicle carrying dangerous goods is dispatched on an off-base trip of more
than eight hours duration, two qualified drivers must be assigned

6. Routine Standards. Unless given direction by his Commanding Officer (CO) or Designated Officer, no
driver of any vehicle is to drive continuously for more than 4-1/2 hours without a break away from the vehicle. No
driver can drive more than 13 hours or be on duty for more than 14 hours a day, without first taking a minimum of
8 consecutive hours off duty.

14 hours. Not bad. It was 16 hours where I used to work.

Note: "In cases where an operational necessity exists, a Commander of a Command, on the advice of the Command TA can approve exceptions to the hours of work regulations."
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 21:59:03 by mariomike »

Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2019, 22:12:07 »
My crew day can go to 16 hours when I am flying with 12 hours of rest thereafter.  I have done that several time at home and almost constantly deployed.  The normal duty day is 8 hours however there are circumstances where you could be asked to work longer hours.  You CoC can provide you with time off when appropriate to compensate for some of the overtime worked but it is not required to do so. 

Offline MJP

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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2019, 22:16:26 »
Hey there,

I've tried to do some research online and on this website, and I can't find anything that states the maximum number of hours a member can work in a day with or without compensation. Basically, my Sgt has it in his head right now that he can have me work 20 hours a day, 5 days a week because "We're in the Army". I'm a Navy guy, working at an Army unit (in Garrison) and this seems absolutely outrageous to me. Is there a policy (CFAO, QR&O, DAOD, etc.) that states how many hours a member can be forced to work in a day for non-operational reasons?

Thanks.

You haven't really given any context but long hours or irregular hours can be part of the job.  It isn't suppose to be the norm but if things need to get done then we stay and do them.  That said normal routine work is generally not an imperative to stay longer hours.
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Offline garb811

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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2019, 22:24:08 »
You haven't really given any context...
Exactly, have you been ordered to work these hours or is this a result of a conversation where the Sgt was making a point, winding you up etc?

If you haven't done so, check your unit's Standing Orders and/or Routine Orders. Most have the "regular" working hours while in Garrison in there, can make it easier to prove a AWOL charge in many cases. As others have noted, that doesn't mean those are the only hours you may be working though.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 23:33:54 by garb811 »

Offline Loachman

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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2019, 22:29:02 »
This is not McDonald.  Work until the work is done.  Then come to work, and do work again...until the work is done.  WTF dude?

How about family and general quality-of-life factors and humane treatment of subordinates?

It depends, though, upon the reasons for and duration of this. Is there a valid reason, and is this for short duration, or is it every week until one party gets posted, quits, or breaks down/burns out?

Offline AbdullahD

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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2019, 03:17:26 »
How about family and general quality-of-life factors and humane treatment of subordinates?

It depends, though, upon the reasons for and duration of this. Is there a valid reason, and is this for short duration, or is it every week until one party gets posted, quits, or breaks down/burns out?

👍👍

I can't agree more, If the CAF has a recruiting problem and has the mentality of "this isn't mcdonalds, do your job and quit ******"... I'll tell you right now 150k/yr isn't enough cash to keep people.

This ain't 100 years ago. Also a lot of context is missing too.
Abdullah


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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2019, 08:13:01 »
This ain't 100 years ago.

Ford brought in the 40-hour week back when they were making Model - T's.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 08:16:49 by mariomike »

Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2019, 08:58:06 »
I would be interested to know what your CO has to say about your Sgts "leadership methods".

I think we can recognize that the regular force technically on duty 24/7 and as such can be employed in that manner.

But if I was you, I would check your units ROs.  I know ours lists the general working hours.  And, while alongside in daily routine, anything over that needs more clearance/approval than a Sgt/POs prerogative. 
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2019, 09:57:36 »
I bet the average mcdonalds employee works harder than the average caf member. Smoke breaks when you feel like it, physio and getting your car fixed during work hours (it happens) doesn't jive at places like mcdonalds.


We're on duty 24/7 but it's disingenuous to think it's acceptable to make members work 5am to 11pm weeks or months at a time if they're not on some type of exercise or military manoeuvres.


I feel like there's some hyperbole in Halifax sailors post however, maybe not. I just dealt with an issue where a unit was blatantly ignoring the rules about drivers and sleep. Happens a lot.


I thought I originally read something here about this guy (op) going to work for an hour/couple hours, leaving for home then being told to come back again. Was that a different guy?
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Offline Remius

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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2019, 10:01:58 »
Context is missing.

When I worked at a CFRC we were warned that our hours would be different.  We could be working late and on weekends.  We had a large AOR and required lots of travel early and late.  The CO did everything he could to ensure we all worked essentially 40 hour weeks and we were given CTO on a 1 for 1 basis as much as possible.   Also not counting the occasional short day we were given to help out with that.   So some days it could be 12 hours or more.

I've also found that some non army RSS posted to army reserve units (and mostly in the BOR) had issues with working that one night a week when the unit paraded and sometimes had to be "told" how it is but that CTO would be granted as much as possible to offset that.  CTO never fully made up for the time I put in as an ARQMS but that was the nature of the job.   But with block leave, short days and CTO, I didn't have much to complain about.

Things will vary from place to place but more detail about what the poster's situation would help frame a better answer from the forum.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2019, 10:29:34 »
There is no such thing as Compensatory Time Off (CTO), notwithstanding that it happens a lot.  Short Leave is supposed to be used for that purpose.  In fact the Leave Policy Manual states:


Section 9.1 Short Leave

9.1.01 Policy

The purpose of short leave is to provide a member of the Regular Force or of the Reserve Force on Class B or C Reserve Service with time away from their duties to:

compensate, in part, for long hours worked during extended periods of operations/training or working on normal days of rest;


It's also worth noting that the requirement for occasional overtime (without additional compensation) is part of the Military Factor in determining our pay rates.  In other words, we all receive overtime pay, all the time, whether we work it or not, but base on the assumption that we will.  Having said that, a leader should not abuse this and require people to work overtime beyond reason.  Make no mistake.  This is a leadership issue.  "Suck it up.  You're in the Army," is not a valid reason to abuse personnel under any circumstances.
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Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2019, 10:32:31 »
(And don’t forget there is a 6% factored into an NCM’s pay and 4% into Officer’s pay for overtime)

Edit:  Pusser beat me to it.

Offline Remius

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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2019, 10:33:51 »
There is no such thing as Compensatory Time Off (CTO), notwithstanding that it happens a lot.  Short Leave is supposed to be used for that purpose.  In fact the Leave Policy Manual states:


Section 9.1 Short Leave

9.1.01 Policy

The purpose of short leave is to provide a member of the Regular Force or of the Reserve Force on Class B or C Reserve Service with time away from their duties to:

compensate, in part, for long hours worked during extended periods of operations/training or working on normal days of rest;


It's also worth noting that the requirement for occasional overtime (without additional compensation) is part of the Military Factor in determining our pay rates.  In other words, we all receive overtime pay, all the time, whether we work it or not, but base on the assumption that we will.  Having said that, a leader should not abuse this and require people to work overtime beyond reason.  Make no mistake.  This is a leadership issue.  "Suck it up.  You're in the Army," is not a valid reason to abuse personnel under any circumstances.

Yep.  But it happens a lot and used quite informally.

Examples: Working late?  Come in late the next day or leave early.  Worked on a weekend?  Take a day and stay home.  Supervisors don't have to get too creative to mange their people as long as shyte gets done.
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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2019, 10:44:17 »
There is also NWD (Non-Working Days) that is auth;  this is used frequently at my Sqn.  It is possible to accumulate more NWDs in a month than the CO can authorize Short Days.  Short days for us usually come from something like being deployed during Stats; the CO will usually auth Short Days for that as the post-deployment leave usually does not give back Stats.

Some units follow a pretty hard line on duty hours;  my experience is those are units whose mbr's don't normally work outside of the posted "normal duty hours' detailed in unit orders, and are not identified as shift workers.  At my Sqn, anyone in a crew position (aircrew and maint) is deemed a shift worker in SqnOs.  This makes compensation for work "outside day worker hours" to be administered and is usually done at the crew commander and/or flight commander levels.  Very efficient, fair and doesn't suck the life out of people trying to record/admin/approve NWDs, etc.  They get entered into FlightPro as NWDs with comments "approved by Pers X on Date Y"....voila.
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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2019, 14:01:21 »
Yep.  But it happens a lot and used quite informally.

Examples: Working late?  Come in late the next day or leave early.  Worked on a weekend?  Take a day and stay home.  Supervisors don't have to get too creative to mange their people as long as shyte gets done.

Isn't that just managing your employee working hours?  That 's less of time off and more like managing someone's schedule so that they hit their 40 hours.

CTO is more like time off instead of OT pay.  For example, if someone works a double shift, manage their schedule so they still work 40 hours, but give them a half day of short to make up for the OT.

Offline Remius

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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2019, 14:07:10 »
Isn't that just managing your employee working hours?  That 's less of time off and more like managing someone's schedule so that they hit their 40 hours.

CTO is more like time off instead of OT pay.  For example, if someone works a double shift, manage their schedule so they still work 40 hours, but give them a half day of short to make up for the OT.

Not sure how my examples really differ from yours...
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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2019, 14:25:25 »
Hey there,

I've tried to do some research online and on this website, and I can't find anything that states the maximum number of hours a member can work in a day with or without compensation. Basically, my Sgt has it in his head right now that he can have me work 20 hours a day, 5 days a week because "We're in the Army". I'm a Navy guy, working at an Army unit (in Garrison) and this seems absolutely outrageous to me. Is there a policy (CFAO, QR&O, DAOD, etc.) that states how many hours a member can be forced to work in a day for non-operational reasons?

Thanks.

So, context being necessary for a full answer, here's my take.

There's really more than one question being asked here:

CAN the Sgt have you work as illustrated? - I would say that he can, given the concept of 7/24 liability, and as a pure point of law.

SHOULD the Sgt have you work as illustrated? - I would absolutely say no. Your efficiency and safety would degrade rapidly under those circumstances.

MAY the Sgt have you work as illustrated? - Perhaps, but it would come down to the local situation, and there would have to be some oversight. If folks are pulling 100hr weeks on a regular basis, then someone above the rank of Sgt should be looking at that.

In closing, I would propose that perhaps the Sgt was attempting to have you realize that irregular and extended work days are expected in your new location, contrary to what you may or may not have experienced elsewhere.
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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2019, 16:12:42 »
Not sure how my examples really differ from yours...

So if you work an extra eight hours one day, don't come in the next day, and get half a day short at some following time.  So rather than a normal 1:1, there is a 1.5 times off to compensate for OT.

Never really works out like that and normally if you can even get anything back it's pretty good at a busy unit.

The civvie option of compressed time actually just has them stacking their working hours into a slightly longer day. For example, they will work the two weeks worth of 80 hours in 9 business days vice 10. That tenth day isn't actually a day of leave, just means they've hit their quota and have a long weekend.  But if they were to work and extra 8 hours of additional time one week, they could take it as either 8 hours of OT pay, or 12 hours time in lieu of leave.  Because they can put in for time off in something like 1 hour increments (maybe less?) it makes it a but easier to track and figure out, where as we have half days of short and full days of annual.

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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2019, 17:24:42 »
The civvie option of compressed time actually just has them stacking their working hours into a slightly longer day. For example, they will work the two weeks worth of 80 hours in 9 business days vice 10. That tenth day isn't actually a day of leave, just means they've hit their quota and have a long weekend.  But if they were to work and extra 8 hours of additional time one week, they could take it as either 8 hours of OT pay, or 12 hours time in lieu of leave.  Because they can put in for time off in something like 1 hour increments (maybe less?) it makes it a but easier to track and figure out, where as we have half days of short and full days of annual.

Depends on the employer. We had to take Leiu time as an entire 12-hour shift. Nothing less.  You could bank up to 96 hours. 8 shifts. Then burn it off, and replenish. Either that, or cash. Almost everyone took the cash.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 17:29:26 by mariomike »

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Re: "Irregular" / extended working hours
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2019, 17:41:28 »
Sorry, meant the DND (and general GoC) civie option. Their leave management seems pretty complicated. Not positive, but seem to remember it may go down as far as 15 minute increments, which seemed excessively granular.

 In my previous jobs, OT only ever meant extra pay, but seems like a good option to be able to take time in lieu, or a combo of time off and pay it out.