Author Topic: Afghan Detainee Mega Thread  (Read 252827 times)

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Offline George Wallace

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #100 on: February 06, 2007, 10:56:39 »
 ::)

I really don't know who this Professor really is, nor his politics.  I have not been involved in the situation or situations, to which this report addresses.  I do have a few commonsense questions after reading this in the article:

Quote
One of the detainees was seen observing the soldiers but escaped, only to be captured the next day. In a field report, the soldiers described him as "non-compliant." Another is described as being "extremely belligerent" and "it took four personnel to subdue him."

Now has anyone been involved in an incident where it took four people to subdue a belligerent person?  Surely anyone who has been involved with or witnessed such an incident would know that the 'detainee' is going to come out of it with just a few scraps, bruises and/or cuts.  Use your friggin head fella.  Another Lawyer bringing a case to the courts on possible frivolous points.  More money wasted, and a few bucks and a reputation to be made by him.  I really wonder sometimes what people think is going on in areas where violence or war is taking place.  Some Canadians have lead a rather sheltered life, while others use our freedoms to create chaos.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #101 on: February 06, 2007, 11:05:36 »
As mentioned elsewhere, I notice that they never mention the fate of any westerner who falls into their hands.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 11:14:59 by Colin P »

Offline cplcaldwell

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #102 on: February 06, 2007, 11:06:58 »
Just took a look around for Professor Attaran's bio. It seems he has a law degree (LLB) and is a Doctor (DPhil). Law from UBC and the Doctorate from Oxford.

Strangley he is listed as an immunologist. He has made quite a name for himself challenging large aid organizations on the efficiency of their delivery mechanisms. Particularly in the delivery of Malaria aid to Africa.

Currently employed as an Associated Professor at the U of O (Law and Population Health).

Seems a bit odd that he would have an academic interest in the conduct of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan with those credentials?

However I will not attack him (ad hominem) , it just seems a bit odd that an immunologist would get national coverage on such an (alleged)incident.

Perhaps I will phone the G&M or CTV and share my comments on the Japanese Whaling Fleet, I feel like I want my fifteen minutes.... :-*
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 11:27:02 by cplcaldwell »
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Offline geo

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #103 on: February 06, 2007, 13:08:27 »
Hmmm.... I'm confused.
We are in Afghanistan, supporting the Government & defending the population from insurgents who have embeded themselves within the population.
We do not maintain our own network of prisons (thank god!).  Prisoners captured in operations, are dissarmed and transfered to our higher means.... why, pray tell, would we continuously keep tabs on prisoners who have been turned over to the legitimate government of Afghanistan or to ISAF detention facilities - who would then transfer them to Afghan authorities.
Chimo!

Offline geo

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Glob and spew ?

I always refered to it as being the "Mop and pail"
Chimo!

Offline NinerSix

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #105 on: February 06, 2007, 13:49:51 »
I was briefed on how we process detainees.

I'll keep the details to myself, but let me assure anyone who has doubts that they are treated professionally and have no reasons to complain. It has been reported before, that detainees get the same medical treatments as one of our one soldier would.

There even were instances where detainees did not want to be released. 

This is a political ploy, pure and simple.
The process is not the mission.

Offline 3rd Herd

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #106 on: February 06, 2007, 14:11:11 »
Watched him on Canada AM this morning being interviewed. A couple of his comments where interesting such as " as an academic researcher it is my job to investigate this given the beating death in Somalia". Next, was his comment about "Canadian Forces handing over prisoners to the Afghanistan government knowing that torture is used". Given the "cover up by DND in the Somalia affair this requires a open public inquiry." My thoughts to him given his high academic credentials are "what is he doing making statements that are not jurried by his equivalents in the academic realm for one". Secondly, it seems that all of his information is secondary sourced and unconfirmed and since he admits researching this for over a year where is his primary research and documentation. Given that he has some connection to International Humanitarian Organizations a trip to Afghanistan for further research does seem out of his reach. Lastly, when questioned more specifically by the Canada AM interviewer there was a significant amount of backtracking. Firm statements at the beginning where more 'whishy washy' at the end. Maybe he is looking for tenurship at Memorial.

Edit:

Having been the receiver of a number of members of the Canadian public who required overnight or long term accommodations courtesy of the local RCMP there are several protocols in place both in the visual realm ie. video and still photo and the textual word when dealling with those that have injuries. I assume that this is standard practice for most law enforcement agencies in Canada. However Afghanistan is Afghanistan and war is war.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 14:16:47 by 3rd Herd »
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Offline garb811

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #107 on: February 06, 2007, 14:22:01 »
If the MPCC does move forward with a "Public Interest Investigation", it is my belief that they are going to rapidly exceed their mandate. 

The MPCC only has the authority to investigate issues that pertain to Military Police who are conducting police duties.  While it is true "custody" is listed as one of the Policing Duties or Functions which the MPCC is able to investigate under the Complaints about the Conduct of Members of the Military Police Regulations, the fact that the pertinent entry reads the "arrest or custody of a person" (my emphasis), leads me to believe the intent of those who drafted the Regulations was to mean custody in the sense it is applied to persons taken into custody due to a police function (ie. those who are arrested or detained due to a criminal or service offence) and not to persons detained as a result of military action.  This also makes me ponder the jurisdiction of the MPCC regarding MP at the DB who also exercise the function of custodians while not employed on police duties...

With the inability of the MPCC to investigate the actions of anyone who is not appointed pursuant to Sec 156 of the NDA, the only real issue they may have to run with is the issue regarding the investigation into the injuries, or perceived lack thereof.  Military Case Law has established that the threshold to meet to meet the criteria of an investigation being conducted is actually very low.  Generation of a report and/or notification to superiors regarding an issue is not always required, the MP may conduct an initial, cursory, inquiry and if they are satisfied that no offence has been committed, sum it up.  It’s called “officer’s discretion” and MPs are able to exercise it in the conduct of their police duties, just like our civilian counterparts.  As George Wallace pointed out, a guy who needs four guys to subdue him is going to suffer some road rash, particularly if he needs to be taken to the ground to get him back under control after his hands are restrained.  If the guy demonstrates his continuing active resistance that the person turning him over says is the cause of the injuries in the first place, the answer on how the injuries were sustained is probably pretty obvious to the “investigating” MP.

I wonder if the fact that the cost of the MPCC has been questioned before has anything to do with their interest in this obviously frivolous complaint.  In 2004/2005 the MPCC spent $2.985 million dollars pursuing its mandate.  Officially, the conducted 59 files, for a total of $50,943 per file.  Unfortunately, they only monitored 52 of those files and completed 6 files and initiated one other which was ongoing at the end of the fiscal year, giving a staggering total of $426,428.57 per file.   How many bullets does that buy again?

Finally, if anyone can decipher just what this means, I would be most appreciative, as I have absolutely NO clue what it is the reporter is trying to imply::

Quote
The lack of an investigation into the injuries sustained by the three detainees captured near Dukah, about 50 kilometres west of Kandahar, in April last year, stands in sharp contrast to the single investigation conducted by the military into possible detainee mistreatment since the Canadians moved into southern Afghanistan.


If he’s trying to imply that someone showing up with cuts and bruises after being detained during combat ops should be investigated as being possible mistreatment, what does he expect to happen if a detainee shows up with gunshot or shrapnel wounds?  If all the guy got was cuts and bruises during a compound raid, I’d call him lucky…


Offline KevinB

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #108 on: February 06, 2007, 14:26:46 »
MP 00161
  Thanks for the insightfully commentary.

Of course people know that I am a firm beleiver in the hearts and minds -- two in the heart and one in the mind.  That way no one can accuse you of PUC abuse  ;D
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Offline COBRA-6

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #109 on: February 06, 2007, 14:31:57 »
If the MPCC does move forward with a "Public Interest Investigation", it is my belief that they are going to rapidly exceed their mandate. 

I was wondering about that, thanks for the info.
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Offline MCG

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #110 on: February 06, 2007, 16:05:09 »


At least one, and perhaps three, Afghan detainees “taken captive by the Canadian Forces appears to have been beaten while detained and interrogated by them,” alleges Amir Attaran, a University of Ottawa law professor,


Two separate probes are underway into a complaint that up to three prisoners suffered injuries while in the custody of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan, the Toronto Star has learned. 


The military is investigating a complaint that alleges prisoners were abused while in the custody of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan.  At least one, and as many as three, Afghan detainees "taken captive by the Canadian Forces appears to have been beaten while detained and interrogated by them," alleges University of Ottawa law professor Amir Attaran
So, some guys detained in a war have injuries and therefore it must be physical abuse after the capture?  I’m pretty sure that the police injure more people through the act of initially taking them under physical control in order to achieve the detention.  It is going to happen when you capture someone that fights/resists.

I should hope the good law professor has more information to go on. Otherwise he is just dragging the military through the mud for his own political/public reasons.  Can an the CF sue for liable damages when this flagrant allegation is shown to be baseless?

Scores of terrorist suspects captured by Canadians have disappeared into the murky netherworld of Afghan and American prisons, but Ottawa refuses to say what has happened to them or even if it knows whether any have been tried, charged, or released, or how they are treated. 
Why is the media making excitement over last years news item?  The media got all excited about this at the start of the 1 PPCIL tour, and the government put the policy on the internet.  Now we are going to recreate the scandal that wasn’t?

Watched him on Canada AM this morning being interviewed. A couple of his comments where interesting such as " as an academic researcher it is my job to investigate this given the beating death in Somalia".  …  Given the "cover up by DND in the Somalia affair this requires a open public inquiry."
So, as an academic, it is his job to stereotype the members of the CF as some community of villains and assume we are out to do evil across Afghanistan?

As mentioned elsewhere, I notice that they never mention the fate of any westerner who falls into their hands.
It does not matter.  We are better than those who would use torture & abuse against us.

Offline Colin P

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #111 on: February 06, 2007, 16:09:42 »
Well now that Liberals are out, they can attempt to smear the current government with this, but they better walk carefully or someone may look at a calender.

Offline 3rd Herd

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #112 on: February 06, 2007, 16:17:32 »
So, some guys detained in a war have injuries and therefore it must be physical abuse after the capture?  I’m pretty sure that the police injure more people through the act of initially taking them under physical control in order to achieve the detention.  It is going to happen when you capture someone that fights/resists.

I should hope the good law professor has more information to go on. Otherwise he is just dragging the military through the mud for his own political/public reasons.  Can an the CF sue for liable damages when this flagrant allegation is shown to be baseless?
Why is the media making excitement over last years news item?  The media got all excited about this at the start of the 1 PPCIL tour, and the government put the policy on the internet.  Now we are going to recreate the scandal that wasn’t?
So, as an academic, it is his job to stereotype the members of the CF as some community of villains and assume we are out to do evil across Afghanistan?
It does not matter.  We are better than those who would use torture & abuse against us.


off the top of my head yes the CF can sue and has done so. A prime although dated example was the case against the Vancouver Sun for a series of articles published from the 13 to 16 of March in 1942(?). They won and I think received 300.00 in compensation from the paper.
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Offline Kilo_302

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #113 on: February 06, 2007, 17:43:21 »
If they were "resisting arrest" after a combat operation, and all they got were a few buttstrokes, they were lucky. Then again, most commentators won't understand this.

Offline milnews.ca

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #114 on: February 06, 2007, 20:35:22 »
Only a slight tangent - I'm going to repeat a previous rant:

Why is it that people who "obtain" documents via Access to Information Act requests never feel we need to see the documents once they publish their stories?  Anyone?  Anyone?

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.....
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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #115 on: February 06, 2007, 20:56:24 »
No matter what somebody does somebody else will criticize, some are just louder at it than others. They are usually in it for their own personal gain or because they have bad feelings to the organization or individual they wish to smear.
He just wants his 15 minutes of fame and in this country the people are 100% willing to give it to him. Who's the true heartless person here?

Offline garb811

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #116 on: February 07, 2007, 01:29:49 »
Only a slight tangent - I'm going to repeat a previous rant:

Why is it that people who "obtain" documents via Access to Information Act requests never feel we need to see the documents once they publish their stories?  Anyone?  Anyone?

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.....
I believe in many instances it is not in the interest of the persons who make a "scoop" via ATIP to personally release the documents as doing so would actually put their "scoop" into context and detract from the perceived newsworthiness of said "scoop".

Anyone can peruse the released documents for free by attending the Reading Room at Place de Ville, 17th Floor, Tower B, 112 Kent, Ottawa.  While I realize that it is a bit of a trek for you, it is an available option.  I've never tried it but if you might also be able to request that a hard copy be sent to you, although that might involve some $$.  Give them a call at (613) 992-9560 and ask.  Alternately, if there were any retired guys on the site who had nothing to do with their days, maybe they could wander down with a cup (or thermos) of coffee and spend a few days sifting through documents? ;)

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #117 on: February 07, 2007, 06:47:39 »
I believe in many instances it is not in the interest of the persons who make a "scoop" via ATIP to personally release the documents as doing so would actually put their "scoop" into context and detract from the perceived newsworthiness of said "scoop".

Anyone can peruse the released documents for free by attending the Reading Room at Place de Ville, 17th Floor, Tower B, 112 Kent, Ottawa.  While I realize that it is a bit of a trek for you, it is an available option.  I've never tried it but if you might also be able to request that a hard copy be sent to you, although that might involve some $$.  Give them a call at (613) 992-9560 and ask.  Alternately, if there were any retired guys on the site who had nothing to do with their days, maybe they could wander down with a cup (or thermos) of coffee and spend a few days sifting through documents? ;)

I've had experience asking DND for a copy of ATIP'ed material on CD-ROM (admittedly, it was for stuff on files I was working on directly for another federal dep't, so I can't guarantee quick service otherwise).  You're right about "documents" - one I was personally involved in had HUNDREDS of documents on the CD, but only had 3-4 lines quoted in the MSM story.

Speaking of MSM, here's some of the latest....

Commission to decide whether prisoner abuse hearings will be public
Mike Blanchfield, CanWest News Service, 6 Feb 07
Article Link

A military complaints commission is expected to decide by week’s end whether hearings into alleged prisoner abuse against Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan will be made public.  University of Ottawa professor Amir Attaran has called on the Military Police Complaints Commission to hold a full-blown public inquiry into allegations that Canadian troops may have abused three Afghans they arrested in southern Afghanistan this past April.  The law professor and human rights advocate filed the complaint based on documents he obtained under Access To Information.  Two other military investigations are underway. Both are being held behind closed doors.  A Board of Inquiry will hear evidence in-camera before delivering a public report that will be subject to Canada’s privacy laws. The military police’s National Investigation Service is also currently conducting its own investigation ....


Hillier orders full inquiry into treatment of detainees
Defence Minister O'Connor vows findings will be made public

PAUL KORING , DANIEL LEBLANC and GLORIA GALLOWAY, Globe & Mail, 7 Feb 07
Article Link - Permalink

Canada's top soldier, General Rick Hillier, ordered a full-blown board of inquiry yesterday to probe detainee treatment in Afghanistan as a political storm shook Ottawa over allegations that captives were beaten while in Canadian custody.  As Gen. Hillier and Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor unveiled multiple probes into the detainee-abuse allegations, they also rejected any comparison with Somalia, where elite Canadian troops tortured and killed a teenage captive more than a decade ago and senior officers were embroiled in a cover-up that eventually stained the entire military.  "This isn't Somalia," Mr. O'Connor said outside the House of Commons, when asked what assurances Canadians had that the government wouldn't close down an inquiry if embarrassing revelations emerged.  "Let's get the scale properly," he said, adding that the findings of both a criminal investigation by the military and the board of inquiry would be made public.  Gen. Hillier said: "We learned many lessons from Somalia. One is responsibility of the chain of command. One is thorough training and preparation."  The general said there was "an incredible hyper-sensitivity to handling detainees.  "We understand how important it is to get this right," he said, and added that "if there was a lapse in a process or policies, we'll find that out and correct it."  In Afghanistan, military police investigators will try to find the three Afghans who may have been beaten 10 months ago. Their whereabouts are unknown because once the Canadian military hands them over to Afghan authorities, it keeps no records of whether they are released or charged, or languish in prison ....


Military probes abuse allegations in Afghanistan
Gen. Rick Hillier says all prisoners handled humanely

CBC Online, 6 Feb 07
Article Link

Military officials are investigating allegations that three Afghan prisoners were abused while in the custody of Canadian soldiers.  The allegations come from a law professor at the University of Ottawa, Amir Attaran, based on government documents he obtained under the Access to Information Act.  Attaran said he received three documents from the Department of National Defence. They were handwritten reports from Canadian military police in the southern Afghan city of Kandahar.  The documents show three men were brought to military police by a single interrogator in one day with injuries to their faces, heads and upper bodies, he told the CBC on Tuesday ....


O'Connor says military probing abuse allegations
CTV.ca, 6 Feb 07
Article Link

Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor says an investigation is underway into allegations that prisoners were abused while in the custody of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan.  O'Connor said Tuesday that the information uncovered during those investigations will be made public.  But the defence minister stressed that the probes haven't concluded yet that the allegations are warranted.  If the complaints are indeed substantiated, corrective action will be taken, O'Connor pledged.  University of Ottawa law professor Amir Attaran lodged a complaint in a letter sent to the Military Police Complaints Commission last week.  Attaran alleges that at least one, and as many as three, Afghan detainees "taken captive by the Canadian Forces appears to have been beaten while detained and interrogated by them." ....


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Offline alfie

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Re: Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #118 on: February 07, 2007, 07:29:05 »
2 comments first, it only says "while under Candian control" which doesn't nessecarily mean that if anything did happen it was Canadians second , thankfuly the Liberals are not in power as we would likely lose the PPCLI or the RCR regiment over this.

Offline Bigmac

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Re: Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #119 on: February 07, 2007, 08:01:45 »
        The manual for handling POWs is "Prisoner of war handling detainees and interogation and tactical questioning in international operations" dated 2004-08-01.  In it the first two steps for an individual to detain a POW is: 1. Disarm them  2. Apply first aid if necessary.
If all they get is a few scrapes and bruises when you disram them I think that is more than acceptable. If they resist harder and are injured further then we medics are obligated to treat them once they are detained. I guarantee Canadian soldiers treat captured combatants far better than most countries.
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Offline niner domestic

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Re: Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #120 on: February 07, 2007, 08:14:33 »
Attaran is getting more than his 15 minutes, here:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,55639.0.html
and here:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,44610.0.html
and here:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,57138.0.html
and here:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,53734.0.html

I'm seeing a pattern of a self appointed guardian of both our Canadian tax dollars and Canadian ethics.  Is he worth anymore of my time reading his treatises of wrongs? Nope.  With all due respect to my learned friend, this is not the way to meet the publish or perish requirements of tenure nor is it sitting well with me that a lawyer, albeit a law professor, is attempting to drum up business - his demeanor with respects to his advocacy of the alledged prisoners if fraught with suspicion - he should know that attempting to plead on behalf of a straw client is a huge no no.   
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Offline stfx_monty

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Re: Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #121 on: February 07, 2007, 11:50:25 »
I would like to echo the sentiments regarding Mr. Attaran's motives. That being said, I think the military needs to take a look and seen to be taking a look. It will cost money, but it's a worthwhile investment.  Nothing like a Royal Commission, just a public inquiry that can establish what happened.

Offline Haggis

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Re: Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #122 on: February 07, 2007, 12:07:35 »
Abuse?  Injured during capture in a combat operation? 

On CBC Newsworld this morning, retired MGen Lew McKenzie was quoted as saying "the fact is that I would guesstimate that least 50% of the players in the Super Bowl last Sunday had more injuries to them than these guys that were trying to escape".

Context is a great thing for a journalist to have.
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Offline Bobbyoreo

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Re: Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #123 on: February 07, 2007, 12:32:26 »
Whats abuse when it comes to prisoners and war. I bruise..cut...I dont understand. I think its good that they are investigating it but even if they find nothing was done wrong by our troops...its still wont be enough for people. They'll just say the Forces are covering it up.
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Offline niner domestic

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Re: Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #124 on: February 07, 2007, 12:45:05 »
Just so folks know what is expected of a lawyer when advocating a cause, here's the commentary set out by the Law Society of Upper Canada on criticizing a Tribunal:

4.06 THE LAWYER AND THE ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Encouraging Respect for the Administration of Justice

4.06 (1) A lawyer shall encourage public respect for and try to improve the administration of justice.

Commentary
 
The obligation outlined in the rule is not restricted to the lawyer's professional activities but is a general responsibility resulting from the lawyer's position in the community. A lawyer's responsibilities are greater than those of a private citizen. A lawyer should take care not to weaken or destroy public confidence in legal institutions or authorities by irresponsible allegations. The lawyer in public life should be particularly careful in this regard because the mere fact of being a lawyer will lend weight and credibility to public statements. Yet for the same reason, a lawyer should not hesitate to speak out against an injustice.

The admission to and continuance in the practice of law implies on the part of a lawyer a basic commitment to the concept of equal justice for all within an open, ordered, and impartial system. However, judicial institutions will not function effectively unless they command the respect of the public, and, because of changes in human affairs and imperfections in human institutions, constant efforts must be made to improve the administration of justice and thereby maintain public respect for it.

 Criticizing Tribunals - Although proceedings and decisions of courts and tribunals are properly subject to scrutiny and criticism by all members of the public, including lawyers, judges and members of tribunals are often prohibited by law or custom from defending themselves. Their inability to do so imposes special responsibilities upon lawyers. First, a lawyer should avoid criticism that is petty, intemperate, or unsupported by a bona fide belief in its real merit, bearing in mind that in the eyes of the public, professional knowledge lends weight to the lawyer's judgments or criticism. Second, if a lawyer has been involved in the proceedings, there is the risk that any criticism may be, or may appear to be, partisan rather than objective. Third, where a tribunal is the object of unjust criticism, a lawyer, as a participant in the administration of justice, is uniquely able to and should support the tribunal, both because its members cannot defend themselves and because in doing so the lawyer is contributing to greater public understanding of and therefore respect for the legal system.

And if seeking a change in legislation:Seeking Legislative or Administrative Changes

4.06 (2) A lawyer who seeks legislative or administrative changes shall disclose the interest being advanced, whether the lawyer's interest, the client's interest, or the public interest.

Commentary
 
The lawyer may advocate legislative or administrative changes on behalf of a client although not personally agreeing with them, but the lawyer who purports to act in the public interest should espouse only those changes that the lawyer conscientiously believes to be in the public interest.

http://www.lsuc.on.ca/regulation/a/profconduct/rule4/

 



The basis of all morality is duty, a concept with the
same relation to a group that self-interest has to individual. R.A.Heinlein