Author Topic: Choice between DEO and NCM  (Read 47601 times)

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Offline gunzgirl85

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Choice between DEO and NCM
« on: June 08, 2011, 21:30:25 »
Hello everyone,

I'll give you a little background first...I'm in my mid 20's, and I was a CIC officer until last year (I finished as a Slt). I have a B.Sc. and an M.Sc in Chemistry, and I've worked for government research since finishing school (1.5 years). The thing with a degree in science is I am a do-er, not a "sit at a desk and do paperwork-er". I liked being a CIC officer, but I hated the admin part (ironically I was the admin officer).

Now that my carrier has derailed a little (not much funding in sciences because of budget cuts, working at stats can instead) I would like to do something more exciting! I always wanted to do a job where I could travel and experience new adventures..Sounds sappy right? CIC didn't really fulfill my craving for a sense of purpose or adventure...

Anyway, I have a masters degree, and about 26000$ in student loans. My last job payed around 50k.

I went to the recruitment office today to see about becoming a Biosciences Officer, but I don't have the exact educational requirements (chemistry instead of biology...). I'm not really interested in many of the officer trades... Also, many of the trades I can apply for require a general bachelor degree, which I would argue is a little of a let down in applied knowledge.

However, a lot of the NCM trades look interesting (namely the radio medical imaging, sonar and radar techs). I really like imaging, and I have a lot of knowledge on imaging techniques..the bulk of my master's thesis was on cellular imaging for cancer detection. Some of my problems with joining as an NCM are:
-Almost all of my friends are officers, as well as my boyfriend. This difference in level might be difficult to deal with..
-The beginning pay scale as a private is not sufficient to cover my costs (on unemployment insurance I make almost the same and its hard to make ends meet..and I don't have a vehicle, children, or pets, just me!) I think I'm worth more than what they are offering for privates.. I would be 30 and not making what I made 3 months ago!
-The promotion rate as an NCM is very slow, whereas as an Officer I can make 2Lt or ASlt after BOTC (I still hold a commission)
-I'm only a little older than the 2lts getting out of university, but I would be much older than my NCM peers out of high school

Do the pros outweigh the cons for NCM enrollment? Or should I keep trying to find a good fit for an officer trade (hopefully one that is hiring soon..) ?

Thanks for all your help and I look forward to your advise



Offline Ditch

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2011, 21:50:16 »
Stick with the Officer route - find a career that interests you and will continue to do so in the future.
Per Ardua Ad Astra

Offline MedCorps

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2011, 21:54:06 »
Agreed.  Find an Officer job that interests you and go that route.

MC

Offline ExRCDcpl

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2011, 21:54:41 »
Would you rather be an officer or an NCM?  Me asking you seems redundant based on your post but that's really all there is to it.

If you feel you are too good to be a private then don't be an NCM.  That said...be prepared as an officer cadet, 2lt and LT to not make much money.  Obviously I'm not speaking from experience but every troop leader I've had has said the same thing....you don't make a good salary until Captain.  You will be promoted to Captain in roughly the same amount of time it would take you to become a corporal.

As a captain you are far from guaranteed to ever becoming a major....so your argument that promotion is slower as an NCM is simply incorrect.

Again, this is a decision you need to make based on what you would rather do with your life.

aesop081

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2011, 22:03:38 »
I think I'm worth more than what they are offering for privates..

Unfortunately, they are not going to change the pay for Privates for you. Only you can decide if it's worth the "hit" based o your job selection.

Quote
-The promotion rate as an NCM is very slow,

Promotions are merit-based so it can be very slow or very fast depending on the individual. I'm a good example of the fast side of things : Cpl to (shortly) WO in less that 7 years.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 22:06:53 by CDN Aviator »

Offline helpup

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2011, 22:18:39 »

As a captain you are far from guaranteed to ever becoming a major .
A capt will have allot more pay incentives though and in the end make more then what a MWO will.  (one of the few reasons my wife CFRed)

There are also other threads about this topic that will give more information.  Even with your debt load you should be able to make ends meet if you go NCM.  There are those with family and kids and debt who join in their late 20's-30's.  Depending on how you budget it is being done.  There are also depending on trade spec pay and other allowances that can help mitigate things. 

As for knowing allot of friends who are officers.  I am not trying to be presumptuous here but there are many married couples of Officer/NCM level and or even just friends.  There is still a line in uniform that is not crossed but we are more liberal in that attitude then say 15 + years ago.
she turned me into a Newt!!

Offline gunzgirl85

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2011, 10:54:04 »
Thanks everyone,
I talked to my officer friends and I think they've convinced me to go the officer route. I already have a commission and may be eligible for IPC level bonus since I was a "reserve" officer for 5 years. And then eventually I eventually can be in charge of the sonar and radar techs lol
I'm not much for driving a ship, but it does lead to other interesting jobs. However, if my dream job in the civilian world comes through then I'll be satisfied.

"That said...be prepared as an officer cadet, 2lt and LT to not make much money.  Obviously I'm not speaking from experience but every troop leader I've had has said the same thing....you don't make a good salary until Captain.  You will be promoted to Captain in roughly the same amount of time it would take you to become a corporal."

The pay rates for 2lt, and Lt are a lot better than the private rate. As well, Lt make about what I made in my last job. In my line of work it would take at least 10-15 years to make what a Capt makes (if ever), so I'm not that worried for waiting. Currently I'm making 38K in a clerk jobs for stats can; nothing at all like my last job as a researcher.

Offline Globemaster

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2011, 15:47:46 »
Get that CT application in early too... 2 of my friends who are CT/OT MARS (one from CIC, one from army reserves) have been waiting for over a year and a half for the NOAB call.

Offline Trick

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2011, 02:49:03 »
Hi Gunz,

Liked reading your post as I'm in a slightly similar position. I'm finishing a MSc right now though in bio. As a sidenote- I'm a cancer researcher, I work with lots of chems/physicists in imaging! It seems you've made your decision, but I'd also recommend you use that education and join up as an officer. I don't want to come off as a snob/elitist, but the kind of education you have is worth much more than the technical skills you've acquired and is something few are lucky enough to have. As you already have your MSc you're in the highest group for education (same as PhD), and with a decent application outside of it, it will certainly help you get up to a level 4 or even 5 priority pretty easily I think.

Personally, I have about a year left in my MSc, but finally submitted everything today (Infantry Officer) and am writing my CFAT soon. I really have in mind to apply next year as if I actually get in any time soon it'll mean leaving my degree unfinished which I'd rather not do (but would be willing to do if given a spot). Personally I think I'll be too late for this year as I have to go through the lengthy loyalty check for time spent studying in Germany, but no harm in seeing how it goes. Ha, I understand your motivations for wanting to join up. Unless you have an NCM trade you're dead-set on though, my own 2 cents would be to do the officer thing. Many other people on hear that know more than me though- I'm only at the start of the process.

Best of luck,

Offline cnobbs84

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2011, 17:34:58 »
Hey,

I just made that decision myself... With the economy sill stagnate more and more university grads are looking to join the forces. And becoming an officer is getting harder and harder. I have chosen to
with drawl from the DEO route and go NCM for the time being. I have selected a trade that works with my degree so after a few years in the forces i can than play the degree trump card. it was a hard decision
to make but in the long run it ill pay off.

 

Offline Trick

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2011, 22:13:44 »
I suppose it would depend on the trade, but from what I've seen there's even more competition in the NCM trades, especially those without many academic requirements.

Offline Silverfire

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2011, 22:20:26 »
At this point, getting into the CF in general is tough.  They're really only taking the best at this point.  Having a degree isn't something only officers have.  I've seen numerous NCM's with bachelors and masters.  If one hasn't graduated high school as a bare minimum, they're going to struggle getting in nowadays.

Offline jwtg

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2011, 10:41:09 »
i can than play the degree trump card.

Your degree is hardly a trump card, and does not guarantee that you will ever become an officer. Yes, there are methods of going from NCM to Officer but I believe if you speak to the people who are in the process, or who have tried or completed the process, you will find that it is far from automatic.

Many will enter, few will win!

Offline cnobbs84

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2011, 20:47:15 »
what i mean was, i have a better chance than other who try to work their way up thru the ranks. I understand that i would not become an officer overnight and that it does take time, however i may get in the trade which i know ill enjoy and make up my mind i may never want to be an officer, but i always have my degree to fall back on.  but either way i want to serve in the forces either as an officer or as ncm so either way is a win win for myself

aesop081

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2011, 16:01:17 »
i have a better chance than other who try to work their way up thru the ranks.

You will have the same chance as everyone else. While you already have a degree, your performance as an NCM and your leadership potential will play a much larger part in deciding if you make it into an in-service commissioning program. Having a degree does not mean you excel at these two things.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2011, 16:24:24 »
what i mean was, i have a better chance than other who try to work their way up thru the ranks. I understand that i would not become an officer overnight and that it does take time, however i may get in the trade which i know ill enjoy and make up my mind i may never want to be an officer, but i always have my degree to fall back on.  but either way i want to serve in the forces either as an officer or as ncm so either way is a win win for myself

As two others have posted, your degree guarantees nothing.  As a person who aspires to join the CF, either as a NCM or an officer, you will have to learn how to communicate clearly and concisely.  Right now I understand that you want to get into a Trade that you will enjoy when you are ill.  Your run-on sentence, lack of capitals and proper punctuation, spelling and grammar could make my understanding of what you are trying to say incorrect.  NCMs and officers in the CF must know how to communicate clearly in both the written and oral form as people's lives depend on clearly understood messages being passed.

Right now you are communicating like a High School dropout, and that will not do you any good in advancing your career in the CF, even as an NCM.
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Offline Journeyman

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2011, 16:26:08 »
what i mean was, i have a better chance than other who try to work their way up thru the ranks. I understand that i would not become an officer overnight and that it does take time, however i may get in the trade which i know ill enjoy and make up my mind i may never want to be an officer, but i always have my degree to fall back on.  but either way i want to serve in the forces either as an officer or as ncm so either way is a win win for myself
I wish to offer my heart-felt condolences regarding your imagined military career.
 
You see, I cannot imagine any CF trade whose standards are such that they would recruit someone who finds a keyboard's <shift key> so completely incomprehensible.



Edit: If I spent more time in the Recruiting threads, George Wallace wouldn't have beat me...
...but I'd likely be a babbling idiot from reading some of the posts  ;)



« Last Edit: June 18, 2011, 16:29:09 by Journeyman »
There’s nothing more maddening than debating someone who doesn’t know history, doesn’t read books, and frames their myopia as virtue. The level of unapologetic conjecture I’ve encountered lately isn’t just frustrating, it’s retrogressive, unprecedented, and absolutely terrifying.
~Chris Evans

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2011, 16:34:57 »
I wish to offer my heart-felt condolences regarding your imagined military career.
 
You see, I cannot imagine any CF trade whose standards are such that they would recruit someone who finds a keyboard's <shift key> so completely incomprehensible.



Edit: If I spent more time in the Recruiting threads, George Wallace wouldn't have beat me...
...but I'd likely be a babbling idiot from reading some of the posts  ;)


As I passed on to you on another means, reading this type of "product" from someone having/claiming a higher education has a tendency to turn one's brain into mush, trying to figure out what they're saying.  This is enough to drive the person marking/assessing their work to drink. 

Next Thursday?
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Offline Journeyman

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2011, 16:45:02 »
« Last Edit: June 18, 2011, 16:48:13 by Journeyman »
There’s nothing more maddening than debating someone who doesn’t know history, doesn’t read books, and frames their myopia as virtue. The level of unapologetic conjecture I’ve encountered lately isn’t just frustrating, it’s retrogressive, unprecedented, and absolutely terrifying.
~Chris Evans

Offline cnobbs84

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2011, 15:40:35 »
Last time I checked the Canadian Forces' standards do not include proper grammar on an internet forum. This is a place where people of a younger generation come and ask questions to those who are normally twice our age. I will admit that the older generation does pay a lot more attention to grammar because you did not learn to text before you learned to type. But before you decide to put anyone down on this site you may wish to think about where these people come from and their backgrounds. Granted GW you have been in the forces for a good many years and no doubt have tons of useful knowledge to pass on to those wishing to join the forces... but I do believe you underestimate the people who are writing these posts. I for one have graduated with honors from University and will be the first to admit that I get lazy when it comes to typing on the internet posts. So my suggestion to all senior members of this site is to do what you came here to do and advise the younger generation and get off your high horse when it comes to small things like grammar. If that seems too difficult to handle may I suggest that you leave this site to those are will answer questions with out huge amounts of sarcastic remarks.


Thank you 

 

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2011, 16:01:22 »
Last time I checked the Canadian Forces' standards do not include proper grammar on an internet forum. This is a place where people of a younger generation come and ask questions to those who are normally twice our age. I will admit that the older generation does pay a lot more attention to grammar because you did not learn to text before you learned to type. But before you decide to put anyone down on this site you may wish to think about where these people come from and their backgrounds. Granted GW you have been in the forces for a good many years and no doubt have tons of useful knowledge to pass on to those wishing to join the forces... but I do believe you underestimate the people who are writing these posts. I for one have graduated with honors from University and will be the first to admit that I get lazy when it comes to typing on the internet posts. So my suggestion to all senior members of this site is to do what you came here to do and advise the younger generation and get off your high horse when it comes to small things like grammar. If that seems too difficult to handle may I suggest that you leave this site to those are will answer questions with out huge amounts of sarcastic remarks.


Thank you

Thank you very much for your opinionated retort. 

I have just spent three days marking written reports for five officers.  It took me less than one day to mark four of their papers, and over two days to mark the fifth.  My mind was turning to mush with trying to read through all the red ink I used on the grammatical, spelling and other errors in his writing that I had to seek other people's opinions on my marking.  All have agreed that his work is a dismal failure.  I get to brief him on it Monday morning.  He will have to rewrite the whole thing and hand it back into me by Thursday.

So, you think we are being "Dickheads" by demanding that people on this site do their best to maintain army.ca as a "professional" forum and improve their skills before they reach the stage where I may be assessing them for real and marking their work as a FAILURE?

By the way, all these officers have Degrees, as do I, and there should be no reason in the world that they can not write in a clear, concise, logical manner.

Just proof again that a Degree is a piece of paper more suited to be hung on a wall at home, not at work, and admired by family only.  It sometimes is not worth the paper it is printed on.  You may take that under advisement, as the Internet, is not anonymous.  Someone, somewhere, may research your past and find you here.  But, what the hey!  You know it all.  Thanks for coming out.

Oh!   

 /rant.
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Offline dangerboy

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2011, 16:01:50 »
Last time I checked the Canadian Forces' standards do not include proper grammar on an internet forum.

This is an unofficial web site not a CF website and the standard of the site is dictated by it's owner.  His standard is outlined in the Milnet.ca Conduct Guidelines: MUST READ http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,24937.0.html and includes guidelines such as:

Quote
You will not use excessive webspeak, or other shorthand styles of typing. Please use English or French to the best of your ability; this makes it easier for those who are not posting in their native language.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2011, 16:42:09 »
Oh!  Yes.  On going back to reflect on your comments above, I stand by this post, but am encouraged that you did put the extra effort into your most recent reply/retort.

As two others have posted, your degree guarantees nothing.  As a person who aspires to join the CF, either as a NCM or an officer, you will have to learn how to communicate clearly and concisely.  Right now I understand that you want to get into a Trade that you will enjoy when you are ill.  Your run-on sentence, lack of capitals and proper punctuation, spelling and grammar could make my understanding of what you are trying to say incorrect.  NCMs and officers in the CF must know how to communicate clearly in both the written and oral form as people's lives depend on clearly understood messages being passed.

Right now you are communicating like a High School dropout, and that will not do you any good in advancing your career in the CF, even as an NCM.

Again, thank you for putting that little extra effort into replying and displaying a much better form of writing.  I have already commented on the content and will leave it at that.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2011, 00:03:58 »
Last time I checked the Canadian Forces' standards do not include proper grammar on an internet forum. This is a place where people of a younger generation come and ask questions to those who are normally twice our age. I will admit that the older generation does pay a lot more attention to grammar because you did not learn to text before you learned to type. But before you decide to put anyone down on this site you may wish to think about where these people come from and their backgrounds. Granted GW you have been in the forces for a good many years and no doubt have tons of useful knowledge to pass on to those wishing to join the forces... but I do believe you underestimate the people who are writing these posts. I for one have graduated with honors from University and will be the first to admit that I get lazy when it comes to typing on the internet posts. So my suggestion to all senior members of this site is to do what you came here to do and advise the younger generation and get off your high horse when it comes to small things like grammar. If that seems too difficult to handle may I suggest that you leave this site to those are will answer questions with out huge amounts of sarcastic remarks.


Thank you

I think the forum rules are pretty clear on this subject, but this is a pet peeve of mine, so I'm going to elaborate.

You'd better hope you never work for me, because I would crucify any of my subordinates for this attitude.  Grammar, spelling, punctuation and syntax are not "small" things.  They are the essential building blocks of communication.  I cannot emphasize enough that communication is an essential building block of operational success.  Literally thousands of soldiers, sailors and airmen have died and battles have been lost because of poor communication.  I'm not talking about faulty equipment.  I'm talking about messages being misinterpreted because the originator didn't communicate effectively.

All members of the CF are under constant scrutiny.  Be it a letter, an email, a formal report or a casual conversation with your supervisor, your communication skills will be assessed at every turn.  In fact, it's so important that it gets mentioned in two sections of you annual Performance Evaluation Report (PER) - an essential building block of the promotion system.  Anything worth doing is worth doing well and admitting that you are too lazy to do that is not gong to win you any points anywhere, but especially not here.
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline Ayrsayle

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2011, 00:35:14 »
"So my suggestion to all senior members of this site is to do what you came here to do and advise the younger generation and get off your high horse when it comes to small things like grammar. If that seems too difficult to handle may I suggest that you leave this site to those are will answer questions with out huge amounts of sarcastic remarks."

 :o

Wow. I won't even touch on the grammar (it has been addressed) but what makes you think the senior members of this board have nothing else to do besides answer your (or others) questions? I'm fairly sure they have other motivations besides being slapped for their opinions (which, surprisingly, they manage to express with more civility then they are addressed with.)

Think of these boards as someone's house - would you walk into someone's home, spit on their floor and demand to be fed whatever and whenever simply because they went to the effort of cooking dinner? If they had the gall to ask you wash your hands and eat with a knife and fork when sitting at their table - that is completely outrageous! If the members of this board offend you by insisting you follow the rules of the house (so to speak), you should seek advice elsewhere. Calling these forums yours does not make it so. There is a very large distinction between something you are welcome to access, and something you deserve.

While it is not only you, these kinds of statements cast a poor light on our generation in general.
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