Author Topic: Choice between DEO and NCM  (Read 47600 times)

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Offline vhaust

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2011, 02:44:58 »
The ones with good grammar skills will notice grammar mistakes.
Someone writing a lengthy text with a laid back attitude is
bound to make typos and write run-on sentences, etc.
When I log onto the internet, if I can understand what I wrote, and the person on the receiving end understands the main points,
I think it would be a good idea to focus on the issues rather than grammar if the mistakes are not critical. Modern education emphasize more on concepts than grammar.
This is from my personal experience.
Some will disagree, perhaps grammar 1st, then concept.
But to some extent, grammar is crucial because I remember
doing a physics lab where the lab manual is hard to comprehend due
to poor grammar, rendering the concepts even harder to understand.
Now, this is not acceptable imo.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 02:56:56 by vhaust »

Offline vhaust

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2011, 03:20:43 »
After going back to the main menu, I realized that we're a bit off-topic.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2011, 09:33:01 »
Modern education emphasize more places more emphasis on concepts than grammar.
Perhaps that is because the education system is predicated on the painfully mistaken view that grammar and logical sentence structure would have been taught in grade school and reinforced in highschool.
There’s nothing more maddening than debating someone who doesn’t know history, doesn’t read books, and frames their myopia as virtue. The level of unapologetic conjecture I’ve encountered lately isn’t just frustrating, it’s retrogressive, unprecedented, and absolutely terrifying.
~Chris Evans

Offline jwtg

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2011, 10:11:29 »
The ones with good grammar skills will notice grammar mistakes.
Someone writing a lengthy text with a laid back attitude is
bound to make typos and write run-on sentences, etc.

I'm sure that lengthy texts can be produced free of error.  Go to a library and you'll find many examples.  A 'laid back attitude' might not be the best way for someone to communicate that they would like to be taken seriously.

Quote
When I log onto the internet, if I can understand what I wrote, and the person on the receiving end understands the main points,
I think it would be a good idea to focus on the issues rather than grammar if the mistakes are not critical.
This is not consistent with the forum guidelines.  All are expected to make an effort to communicate effectively and using proper grammar, punctuation, spelling, etc.  A typo is not the same as disregard for the proper use of the English language.  Also spellcheck is quick and easy.

Quote
Modern education emphasize more on concepts than grammar.
This is from my personal experience.
Some will disagree, perhaps grammar 1st, then concept.
But to some extent, grammar is crucial because I remember
doing a physics lab where the lab manual is hard to comprehend due
to poor grammar, rendering the concepts even harder to understand.
Now, this is not acceptable imo.

I'm pretty sure that when I pursue 'modern education' I still get docked marks for poor writing.

Offline Pusser

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2011, 11:03:44 »
The ones with good grammar skills will notice grammar mistakes.
Someone writing a lengthy text with a laid back attitude is
bound to make typos and write run-on sentences, etc.
When I log onto the internet, if I can understand what I wrote, and the person on the receiving end understands the main points,
I think it would be a good idea to focus on the issues rather than grammar if the mistakes are not critical. Modern education emphasize more on concepts than grammar.
This is from my personal experience.
Some will disagree, perhaps grammar 1st, then concept.
But to some extent, grammar is crucial because I remember
doing a physics lab where the lab manual is hard to comprehend due
to poor grammar, rendering the concepts even harder to understand.
Now, this is not acceptable imo.

What gives you the idea that there is a choice between grammar and concept?  Not everything in life involves choices.  This is one of those cases where you have to do both!  Understanding a concept or formulating an idea is simply not enough.  You also have to be able to communicate that idea properly in order to be effective.

I boggles my mind that there is an element present which seems to feel that the combined advice of many of us with many years of experience is off base.  Someday, when you are the CDS, perhaps you can change the way we do things, but in the meantime, I suggest you take heed of the warnings of your elders and learn from them.  You might also keep in mind that in order to one day become CDS, first you must get past us!
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline vhaust

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2011, 15:54:10 »
Reading from the replies, I think I have made myself unclear due to poor grammar.
What I am trying to say is some guys posting on this forum are youngsters,
or guys with a relatively small background in education under the English system,
and I believe that a certain degree of tolerance for grammatical mistakes should be endowed.
On the other hand, a lab manual or textbook with sentences that are hard to comprehend should
receive a smaller portion of tolerance because they are expected to be professionals,
especially if the author of the manual has a Ph.D in front of his name.
Also, these manuals are most likely reviewed by publishers and that should add
an extra filter to miscommunications.
Moreover, a good portion of the people from Quebec are educated under the French system, and if they come to this forum to ask a question,
assuming that they are not too familiar with the English language, they may be intimidated. The same goes for native English speakers in a French speaking forum/region.
A certain degree of tolerance should be assumed so they can remain in harmony.


« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 15:57:23 by vhaust »

Offline jwtg

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2011, 15:56:39 »
Reading from the replies, I think I have made myself unclear due to poor grammar.

An interesting thing to admit, given your position on the matter.

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2011, 16:01:24 »
Reading from the replies, I think I have made myself unclear due to poor grammar.

 :rofl:

Offline mariomike

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2011, 16:04:00 »
Reading from the replies, I think I have made myself unclear due to poor grammar.
What I am trying to say is some guys posting on this forum are youngsters,
or guys with a relatively small background in education under the English system,
and I believe that a certain degree of tolerance for grammatical mistakes should be endowed.

From another topic: "As a Military related site, we try to encourage "professionalism" and good writing skills.  Admittedly some on this site don't have the education, or perhaps their English skills being a second or third language, and we try to accommodate them; but when someone comes on claiming to be 'educated' we do expect more from them.":
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/index.php/topic,87494.msg853986.html#msg853986

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2011, 16:14:59 »
.....some guys posting on this forum are youngsters, or guys with a relatively small background in education under the English system,
and I believe that a certain degree of tolerance for grammatical mistakes should be endowed.
Notwithstanding I believe you mean "entertained" rather than "endowed," you honestly believe that the best course of action is to dumb down the responses rather than push for more effort from the questioners? [Please consider this to be a rhetorical question; I have no desire to be pen-pals] Society will be much further ahead that way.    :facepalm:

Quote
...especially if the author of the manual has a Ph.D in front of his name.
Degrees and honourifics held follow the name; that's why they're called postnominals.

Quote
A certain degree of tolerance should be assumed so they can remain in harmony.
You haven't the vaguest idea of how much tolerance is already displayed by the senior membership here -- some by merely avoiding the Recruiting threads, which I will do again momentarily.

But heaven forbid some 18-year old's ability to self-actualize, or his zen placement within the cosmos, is diminished by something read within an online forum.   ::)
There’s nothing more maddening than debating someone who doesn’t know history, doesn’t read books, and frames their myopia as virtue. The level of unapologetic conjecture I’ve encountered lately isn’t just frustrating, it’s retrogressive, unprecedented, and absolutely terrifying.
~Chris Evans

Offline vhaust

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2011, 16:24:54 »
Thanks guys for the replies.  :salute:

Offline Ayrsayle

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2011, 16:33:35 »
As a note regarding being educated in French and posting in an English area of the forums - I have yet to see an individual get dressed down for poor grammar when they have identified themselves as being native French speakers. Quite the opposite!

Not saying it has not happened, just that I have yet to see it. I like to think most members can see the difference between sloppy grammar and a struggle to use it effectively. Defending a right to sloppy grammar however would fall under the former.

My opinion, of course.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2011, 21:29:41 »
As a note regarding being educated in French and posting in an English area of the forums - I have yet to see an individual get dressed down for poor grammar when they have identified themselves as being native French speakers. Quite the opposite!

Not saying it has not happened, just that I have yet to see it. I like to think most members can see the difference between sloppy grammar and a struggle to use it effectively. Defending a right to sloppy grammar however would fall under the former.

My opinion, of course.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.  The difference between a lazy approach to writing and writing in your second language is usually quite obvious. 
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2011, 07:18:47 »
What I am trying to say is some guys posting on this forum are youngsters,
or guys with a relatively small background in education under the English system,
and I believe that a certain degree of tolerance for grammatical mistakes should be endowed.

On the other hand, a lab manual or textbook with sentences that are hard to comprehend should
receive a smaller portion of tolerance because they are expected to be professionals,
especially if the author of the manual has a Ph.D in front of his name.

Also, these manuals are most likely reviewed by publishers and that should add
an extra filter to miscommunications.

Huh? 

I have no idea of what you are trying to say.

If someone comes onto this site and claims to be a holder of a university Degree and communicates like a High School dropout, then they will be targeted for this type treatment and ostracized for their lack of writing skills. 
DISCLAIMER: The opinions and arguments of George Wallace posted on this Site are solely those of George Wallace and not the opinion of Army.ca and are posted for information purposes only.
Unless so stated, they are reflective of my opinion -- and my opinion only, a right that I enjoy along with every other Canadian citizen.

Offline M2

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2011, 14:35:52 »
I've read this thread and aside from grammar, of which I am ever mindful, I have a question pertinent to this topic.

Having previously served both in the ResF and RegF, I returned to the ResF to complete my MA in political science following an Honours BA in business and political science. I have completed six years of reserve service with a year spent with the RegF on deployment in TFA 3-06 and two years in the RegF with deployment on TFA 3-08. Still happily a Corporal, I'm looking to return to the service with a masters degree and am seeking your advice on a potential commission. Prior to leaving the RegF, I was ranked favourably to attend PLQ though not having completed my BA at the time, I felt compelled to return to my alma mater as a reservist. Checking with the officer in charge of career's in L-101 (Pet), she instructed me that a UTP-NCM would only be possible pending board selection the following March 2010 (my contract was up Sept 2009 in time for fall term at university) so naturally faced with the known and unknown, I chose the known route and decided to pay my own way through the rest of my degree.

So school's done, the economy nears another (deeper?) recession and while I have a passion for political science, the degree is primarily only useful as a signal to potential service-sector employers. While I could enter this workforce, I don't want to spend the rest of my life revising insurance policy, executing deliverables to VP's or taking part in "casual Friday's" knowing that out there, in the field, be it on exercise or for real, my good friends I made in the Army are doing what I really enjoyed. I prefer to return to my Army family and be as useful as possible to the service.

Would you gentlemen (and of course ladies) be kind enough to give direction or comments as to commissioning? While I was a combat engineer as an NCM, I don't believe I can enter this MOC as an officer in absence of a B.Eng. The alternative I am looking at is to join the infantry as I would prefer not to join other (potentially more appropriate?) MOC's such as public affairs as I prefer fieldwork now in my youth.

Looking for your guidance friends.

-Matt

Offline dangles

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2011, 21:40:49 »
Looking for your guidance friends.
-Matt

Although I have no previous experience, I can offer you some small guidance. It seems you want to use your masters degree to become an Officer and get the most of your money...which is completely understandable.

However, it also seems you want to do the work of a NCM based on your strong desire to do field work. Unfortunately, just looking at some of the information from the www.forces.ca website, even the Officers in the Combat Arms have to do a lot of administrative work, or work akin to "revising policies, executing deliverables." This administrative work only increases if you are going to make a career out of being an Officer in the CF.

 Regardless, you should realize that you don't need to be on the pointy end of the stick to make a difference in the Canadian Forces. The CF is a conglomerate of trades that are equally important in order for the CF to function smoothly. Although as an Officer you may not be out in the field every day, you are still an invaluable member of an organization dedicated to making a difference. So my advice would be to keep in mind the inherent differences between an Officer and a NCM, and join a trade you would want to make a career out of, regardless of the pay scale.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 11:23:19 by dangles »
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Offline Nerf herder

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2011, 07:38:13 »
Although I have no previous experience, I can offer you some small guidance. It seems you want to use your masters degree to become an officer and get the most of your money...which is completely understandable.

However, it also seems you want to do the work of a NCM based on your strong desire to do field work. Unfortunately, just looking at some of the information from the www.forces.ca website, even the officers in the Combat Arms have to do a lot of administrative work, or work akin to "revising policies, executing deliverables." This administrative work only increases if you are going to make a career out of being an Officer in the army.

 Regardless, you should realize that you don't need to be on the pointy end of the stick to make a difference in the Canadian Forces. The CF is a conglomerate of trades that are equally important in order for the CF to function smoothly. Although as an Officer you may not be out in the field every day, you are still an invaluable member of an organization dedicated to making a difference. So my advice would be to keep in mind the inherent differences between an Officer and a NCM, and join a trade you would want to make a career out of, regardless of the pay scale.

Officer

Just an observation.

Regards
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2011, 12:57:58 »
I've read this thread and aside from grammar, of which I am ever mindful, I have a question pertinent to this topic.

Having previously served both in the ResF and RegF, I returned to the ResF to complete my MA in political science following an Honours BA in business and political science. I have completed six years of reserve service with a year spent with the RegF on deployment in TFA 3-06 and two years in the RegF with deployment on TFA 3-08. Still happily a Corporal, I'm looking to return to the service with a masters degree and am seeking your advice on a potential commission. Prior to leaving the RegF, I was ranked favourably to attend PLQ though not having completed my BA at the time, I felt compelled to return to my alma mater as a reservist. Checking with the officer in charge of career's in L-101 (Pet), she instructed me that a UTP-NCM would only be possible pending board selection the following March 2010 (my contract was up Sept 2009 in time for fall term at university) so naturally faced with the known and unknown, I chose the known route and decided to pay my own way through the rest of my degree.

So school's done, the economy nears another (deeper?) recession and while I have a passion for political science, the degree is primarily only useful as a signal to potential service-sector employers. While I could enter this workforce, I don't want to spend the rest of my life revising insurance policy, executing deliverables to VP's or taking part in "casual Friday's" knowing that out there, in the field, be it on exercise or for real, my good friends I made in the Army are doing what I really enjoyed. I prefer to return to my Army family and be as useful as possible to the service.

Would you gentlemen (and of course ladies) be kind enough to give direction or comments as to commissioning? While I was a combat engineer as an NCM, I don't believe I can enter this MOC as an officer in absence of a B.Eng. The alternative I am looking at is to join the infantry as I would prefer not to join other (potentially more appropriate?) MOC's such as public affairs as I prefer fieldwork now in my youth.

Looking for your guidance friends.

-Matt

I understand what you are getting at.  Yes, there are a multitude of officer occupations (e.g. infantry, armour, artillery, MARS, Pilot, Air Nav, etc) for which your academic background is suitable and in which you will have plenty of opportunity for "fieldwork."  Altough Political Science is not a "preferred" degree for Logistics, it is an "acceptable" degree.  If you really liked blowing stuff up with the Engineers, LogOs (specifically Ammunition Technical Officers - ATOs) get to dabble in that.  Just keep in mind that as an officer, there will be plenty of administration (i.e. "paperwork") to do in addition to (i.e. not instead of) the fieldwork.
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline Living the Dream

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2018, 20:56:19 »
Hi Guys and Gals,

Just wondering if switching my DEO application to an NCM would be a good idea in my situation. Here is a brief summary:
- Trades of choice are Ms Eng (1st) and NWO(2nd)
- Applied in the summer of 2015;
- With delays and everything got my Security Clearance sorted out in around May 2017.
- Did my interview and medical in June-July 2017.
- On the Competition List, since Aug-Sept 2017.
- Heard nothing so far and getting tired of waiting to be honest.

I have no information on how competitive my application is, and my career counselor is impossible to get a hold off to ask a few questions in person and have a discussion. I was thinking that it shouldn't be such a big deal to talk to the person who is in charge of your file, but apparently it is.

Just solely based on the fact that I didn't get any offers over the past year, I am estimating that my application is not rated very highly for a DEO position, or I don't know how else to explain it. I guess I need some advice. I would like to hear a few opinions before I head down to the CFRC in person trying to get someone's attention there.

- Shall I continue waiting for a DEO position some more?
- Shall I lower my expectations and switch to an NCM (Mar. Tech.)? Personally, I don't mind learning the job from the bottom, and it is an in-demand occupation. This is what my original application was before I got talked by the career counselor to apply as a DEO.

My background is:
- Double Master's Degree:
  + Applied Physics and Math
  + Business Administration
- 8-9 years of experience in software, but closely related to shipbuilding. I don't write code. I talk to marine engineers and naval architects.
- Put in about 2,000 hrs/year in volunteering service with RCM-SAR.
- Also volunteer for Junior Achievement about 100hrs/year.
- Dual citizenship
- 36 yo

Thank you!

Offline mariomike

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2018, 21:03:22 »
Just wondering if switching my DEO application to an NCM would be a good idea in my situation.

You may find discussions like this of interest,

I need help choosing...Direct Entry Officer or NCM with a masters degree?
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=101210.0
2 pages.

NCM vs. OFFICER?
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=85111.0

NCM vs Officer enrollment 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=28327.0

Curious how everyone decided on their trade or Officer/NCM 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=101210.0
2 pages.

Comparing the job of Officer vs NCM [MERGED]
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=171.0
25 pages.

etc...
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 21:10:12 by mariomike »

Offline OceanBonfire

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2018, 01:03:44 »
...

- Shall I lower my expectations ...

...

You could go to an information session at your local reserve unit. You can be an officer in a reserve unit, literally work full time hours, and receive the same benefits as a regular force member.
Recruiting Center: Montreal
Regular/Reserve: Regular Force
Officer/NCM: Officer (DEO)
Occupation choice: Logistics Officer
Current application: March 28, 2017
CFAT: Previously completed in November 2011
Interview: July 11, 2017
Medical: August 2017
Competition list: October/November 2017
Position Offered: May 25, 2018
Swearing In: August 21, 2018
BMOQ: August 25, 2018
BMOQ Graduation: November 16, 2018

Offline Living the Dream

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2018, 02:20:20 »
Thank you, guys. Nice selection of discussions. I will drop by my CfRc tomorrow to check in.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2018, 05:23:03 »
You could go to an information session at your local reserve unit. You can be an officer in a reserve unit, literally work full time hours, and receive the same benefits as a regular force member.

I would ask specifically at the unit about that. 

Unless you're working a Class C contract, and I'm not sure how many of those there are in the PRes world nowadays, you don't get paid the same.  If you're working Class B (still "full time") you're only getting paid 85%.  Also, Reservists do not get the same benefits as Reg Force folks.
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline OceanBonfire

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2018, 15:45:40 »
I would ask specifically at the unit about that. 

... Also, Reservists do not get the same benefits as Reg Force folks.

I asked them about that when I went to an information session at my local Reserve unit and they told me that it does for Class C. I was skeptical since it's the Reserves.
Recruiting Center: Montreal
Regular/Reserve: Regular Force
Officer/NCM: Officer (DEO)
Occupation choice: Logistics Officer
Current application: March 28, 2017
CFAT: Previously completed in November 2011
Interview: July 11, 2017
Medical: August 2017
Competition list: October/November 2017
Position Offered: May 25, 2018
Swearing In: August 21, 2018
BMOQ: August 25, 2018
BMOQ Graduation: November 16, 2018

Offline TrunkMonkey315

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Re: Choice between DEO and NCM
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2018, 16:01:57 »
Class C do receive more benefits but most likely your only going to see that contract if your deployed.