Author Topic: Discussion About Maroon Berets? split- more infantry work. Artillery or Armored  (Read 47329 times)

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Offline Journeyman

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Further, airborne and air mobile Arty is coming back as well.
Do you have a source for that?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 09:20:31 by Bruce Monkhouse »
There’s nothing more maddening than debating someone who doesn’t know history, doesn’t read books, and frames their myopia as virtue. The level of unapologetic conjecture I’ve encountered lately isn’t just frustrating, it’s retrogressive, unprecedented, and absolutely terrifying.
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Offline BulletMagnet

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2011, 22:14:23 »
JM

2 RCHA and 2 CER are now sporting a Maroon Beret I believe Coy but it could be troop. that is 100% verified by my own 2 eyes, As well as members of 2FD Amb also sporting the Maroon not sure on the number of Medics but I believe 4
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 00:42:11 by BulletMagnet »
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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2011, 23:08:05 »
2 RCHA and 2 CER are now sporting a Maroon Beret
Hmmm.... I wonder if it will amount to anything other than a fashion statement -- ie, will there be any actual training/operational role.
There’s nothing more maddening than debating someone who doesn’t know history, doesn’t read books, and frames their myopia as virtue. The level of unapologetic conjecture I’ve encountered lately isn’t just frustrating, it’s retrogressive, unprecedented, and absolutely terrifying.
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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2011, 06:38:51 »
JM

2 RCHA and 2 CER are now sporting a Maroon Beret I believe Coy but it could be troop. that is 100% verified by my own 2 eyes, As well as members of 2FD Amb also sporting the Maroon not sure on the number of Medics but I believe 4

I believe the CER's retained Jump Section/Troop after the disbandment stand down of CAR...
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2011, 06:53:30 »
I believe the CER's retained Jump Section/Troop after the disbandment stand down of CAR...

Are you sure?

I am sure that with the disbandbent of the CAR and the reorg of the SSF to 2 CMBG all those Operational Jump positions were done away with until the Jump Coys were brought back in the Bns.  As far as I know the outlying posns never got reinstated.  Does the RCD have their Jump Troop back?   This may just be a bunch of new Jumpers using their own "initiative" and you know what that could mean.



[Edit:  Mike......Your Spell Check missed my typo of "disbandbent".  ]
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 07:19:29 by George Wallace »
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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2011, 06:57:13 »
Not really sure George but here at the school I have seen all three berets colours with engineer cap badges walking around....
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Offline MCG

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2011, 07:13:03 »
I believe the CER's retained Jump Section/Troop after the disbandment stand down of CAR...
There were "light troops" that contained "jump sections" but there were no designated jump positions to go along with these.  The soldiers all had basic para and often jumped with the 3rd bn, but they still wore green berets.  However, it remained possible for combat engineers to wear the maroon beret if they were posted to a jump position in CFLAWC.

If any regiment has designated jump positions now, that would be a new development.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 07:17:39 by MCG »

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2011, 08:18:39 »
George, haven't seen any RCDs with the Maroon beret.  Like BulletMagnet said, just been seeing Arty, Engineer and Medics with the Maroon Beret, as well as the pers in the 3RCR Jump Coy(Infantrymen, Sig, etc)

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2011, 08:40:34 »
And you won't see any RCDs with the maroon beret (You never did), but they also had a Jump Troop.  I have a strong suspicion at the moment that these guys are wearing these berets on their own initiative and under lax discipline from their unit RSMs.  (It does happen.)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 08:45:10 by George Wallace »
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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2011, 08:58:54 »
Not exactly so. When I was last up visiting 2 RCHA, the regiment had formed an airborne mortar troop in the battery that was affiliated with 3 RCR. There also should be a FOO party as well.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2011, 09:08:01 »
OS

If those posns were authorized by Higher (than the Regiment) I can agree.  If these pers are doing it on their own or as an initiative of the Regt, then it is still wrong.   As I have no inside knowledge of this matter, I really can not be a SME and stand to be corrected if necessary.
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Offline MCG

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2011, 09:56:37 »
If these pers are doing it on their own or as an initiative of the Regt, then it is still wrong.   
Given the number of sightings mentioned above, if this was something being done by individuals or organizations below unit level, then it would have already been stomped down by the Bde CWO or respective unit RSMs.  This is described as being in more than one unit and apparently organizationally based - this is at the very least a formation (brigade) level initiative if not higher.

It may very well be that proper approvals are not in place and authorized jump positions do not exist.  However, the responsibility for that would rest high enough that none of the soldiers (including up to the RSMs) deserve an accusatory finger pointed their way.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2011, 10:11:08 »
Not really sure George but here at the school I have seen all three berets colours with engineer cap badges walking around....

CFSME should ahve four colours, not three - unless the Air Force has been kicked out...
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2011, 10:12:43 »
It may very well be that proper approvals are not in place and authorized jump positions do not exist.  However, the responsibility for that would rest high enough that none of the soldiers (including up to the RSMs) deserve an accusatory finger pointed their way.

I 'd argue the RSM responsibiltiy in this case - dress regs explain who should wear a maroon beret; the RSM should confirm that the conditions in the regulations are being met and respected.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Hey, here's an idea. Why doesn't someone, who has access, just go ask them. ::)

That, or we could spin this fifty ways to Sunday, get all pissy with each other's opinions while wrapping ourselves around the axle, only to find out no one was right anyway after 14 pages of debate. ;)
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I only hope we can start wearing our "Warrior" badges again.
 
      :nod:



 ;D
There’s nothing more maddening than debating someone who doesn’t know history, doesn’t read books, and frames their myopia as virtue. The level of unapologetic conjecture I’ve encountered lately isn’t just frustrating, it’s retrogressive, unprecedented, and absolutely terrifying.
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Offline George Wallace

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Eeeeeeeek!
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Offline MCG

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2011, 10:34:09 »
I 'd argue the RSM responsibiltiy in this case - dress regs explain who should wear a maroon beret; the RSM should confirm that the conditions in the regulations are being met and respected.
In this case, I suspect pers who's rank is measured in bars have weighed in.  RSMs are the enforcers of dress, but even they must fall in-line when the COs or commanders order differently ... and that warrior badge illustrates this reality quite well.

Offline dapaterson

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There are no positions with the AHYL OSS within 2 RCHA or 2 CER.  AHYL = Basic Para.  Therefore, there is no airborne designated sub-unit within 2 RCHA 2 CER.  Therefore, IAW the CF dress manual, no one within 2 RCHA or 2 CER should wear a maroon beret.


Chapter 6, section 1, para 4e:
Quote
Paratroop Personnel and Airborne Units.
The maroon beret or turban shall be worn
with all orders of dress by qualified
parachutists wearing the army uniform, when
on the posted strength of an airborne unit,
designated airborne sub-unit or element, and
the Canadian Parachute Centre. The maroon
beret or turban is further authorized for wear
by qualified parachutists wearing the army
uniform when on staff, exchange, or liaison
duties, and, while so employed, in receipt of
paratroop allowance.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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I only hope we can start wearing our "Warrior" badges again.
 
      :nod:



 ;D

I still have all three designations. Only ever got bronze, but found a bunch in a drawer when we stopped issueing them.

I'm going to put them all on my Frontiersman tunic when I retire ;D and refuse to give any to the other guys. ;)
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Offline Blackadder1916

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I still have all three designations. Only ever got bronze, but found a bunch in a drawer when we stopped issueing them.

I'm going to put them all on my Frontiersman tunic when I retire ;D and refuse to give any to the other guys. ;)

Wasn't that the official qualifying criteria?
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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2011, 11:55:15 »
CFSME should ahve four colours, not three - unless the Air Force has been kicked out...

Well as it pertained to the LF I intentionally left out the Airforce.

 :nana:
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Offline old fart

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Re: Re: more infantry work. Artillery or Armored
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2011, 07:25:04 »
Are you sure?

I am sure that with the disbandbent of the CAR and the reorg of the SSF to 2 CMBG all those Operational Jump positions were done away with until the Jump Coys were brought back in the Bns.  As far as I know the outlying posns never got reinstated.  Does the RCD have their Jump Troop back?   This may just be a bunch of new Jumpers using their own "initiative" and you know what that could mean.

[Edit:  Mike......Your Spell Check missed my typo of "disbandbent".  ]

After the disbandment the Airborne Engineer Platoon became part of the Airborne Holding Unit and then for a couple of months under what was called the '3 Cdo Coy Gp.'  After the first airborne exercise (a raid on Camp Argonaught in Gagetown - Ex LETHAL REACH) in June 1995 we moved to 2 CER.  15 jump positions were retained in what was called the Airborne Planning Cell.  The brokered deal of keeping us together fell apart and those lucky enough to keep a jump position were dispersed across 2 CER. 

Although we did our best to keep things going it was not easy...ex platoon members jumping on cas para status being a bit peeved etc.  I left in 98, and as far as I know the planning cell positions were deleted by the CME branch a couple years later.

I am intrigued about the mention of Maroon berets being worn again in 2CER (I would be surprised) and will follow that up with the RSM, who is an airborne sapper and a section commander of mine in his younger days.   Previously there was only one sapper with a maroon beret...and he hangs his hat...in Trenton.
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dapaterson is the closest to the answer.  DP, swing by 19NT...the answer lies therein.  ;)

Offline old fart

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Not from a 2 CER source but from someone with some knowledge of this matter...

"2 CER has, or is in the process of building a troops worth of jumpers.  2 Bde is going with an "enhanced" jump company based around M Coy of 3 RCR.  They will be however on Cas Para only for now but have all the rights and privileges (maroon beret/t-shirt).  Its hoped that when 2 Bde becomes more "air mobile" then the position will become hard para."

More to follow, but the notion that the RSM is permitting dress violations or letting soldiers wear whatever they please is laughable. ...and all the posts on that aspect just garbage/useless waffle. 







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