Author Topic: Obligatory Service after Training / Education [MERGED]  (Read 37264 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline George Wallace

  • Army.ca Fossil
  • *****
  • 430,290
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 31,441
  • Crewman
Re: Obligatory Service after Training / Education [MERGED]
« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2015, 11:24:30 »
So I signed up for the ROTP and I wish to get into a civilian university and earn a degree in Mathematics and Business Administration and go into Information Technology. For the ROTP, I applied for the Intelligence Officer position. I thought that the 5 years obligatory service after graduation (if you have paid university) that you would be able towork in your field but if needed as a foot soldier, they are legally allowed to make you a soldier. I'm just hearing many different stories from different people and I just wanted to clear this up.

You do realize that ROTP is a program sponsored by the Department of National Defence.  If you are accepted, you are enrolled into the Canadian Armed Forces as an Officer Cadet in one of the three Elements: Land, Sea, or Air (Army, Navy or Air Force).  As such you WILL BE a 'soldier', 'sailor' or an 'airman' (Sorry. Not PC).  During your obligatory service you WILL BE employed as a 'soldier', 'sailor' or 'airman' who as an officer will command persons under you and be employed wherever the Canadian Armed Forces deems it necessary. 

So, if you are to become an officer in the Army, then you will be employed as a 'soldier' in command of other 'soldiers'.  If in the Navy, you will be employed as a 'sailor' in charge of 'sailors'.  Same for the Air Force.  As this is the Canadian Armed Forces, you most likely will, as an officer, be 'commanding' a mix of 'soldiers', 'sailors' and 'airmen' (sorry not PC) sometimes over your career.
DISCLAIMER: The opinions and arguments of George Wallace posted on this Site are solely those of George Wallace and not the opinion of Army.ca and are posted for information purposes only.
Unless so stated, they are reflective of my opinion -- and my opinion only, a right that I enjoy along with every other Canadian citizen.

Offline Calvillo

  • Guest
  • *
  • 570
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16
Re: Obligatory Service after Training / Education [MERGED]
« Reply #51 on: June 07, 2016, 11:02:27 »
1. When you enroll, you will be given an initial contract of 12 years (13 for some trades). This is know as your Variable Initial Engagement (VIE). The first 4 years will be spent at University, meaning when you grauate, you will have 8 (or 9) years left on your contract.

Can you please expound on this VIE? Does this mean that after 4 years at the College and 5 years Obligatory Service an Officer still needs to serve in the Forces for another 3 or 4 years?

Offline sidemount

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 4,910
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 320
Re: Obligatory Service after Training / Education [MERGED]
« Reply #52 on: June 07, 2016, 11:09:30 »

When you are done your obligitory service you are still under a contract. However you can still release if you like...it just takes some time. You are no longer have a financial obligation to pay back for school if you decide to release.
Leadership is solving problems. The day soldiers stop bringing you their problems is the day you have stopped leading them. They have either lost confidence that you can help or concluded you do not care. Either case is a failure of leadership. - Colin Powell

Offline Lumber

  • Donor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 42,949
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,656
Re: Obligatory Service after Training / Education [MERGED]
« Reply #53 on: June 07, 2016, 11:22:51 »
Can you please expound on this VIE? Does this mean that after 4 years at the College and 5 years Obligatory Service an Officer still needs to serve in the Forces for another 3 or 4 years?

Yes.
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower

Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline Calvillo

  • Guest
  • *
  • 570
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16
Re: Obligatory Service after Training / Education [MERGED]
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2016, 11:58:53 »
Is there any obligation to serve as an enlisted if one fails to complete RMCC and receive commission?

Offline Blackadder1916

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 123,890
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,503
Re: Obligatory Service after Training / Education [MERGED]
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2016, 13:10:09 »
Is there any obligation to serve as an enlisted if one fails to complete RMCC and receive commission?

I will attribute your use of the term "enlisted" to your ignorance of the subject and refrain from chastising you.  "Enlisted" is an Americanism; Canadians don't enlist, they enrol. The official terminology for soldiers who are not officers is "Non-Commissioned Members" (NCMs); for those of us who are past it, it used to be "Other Ranks" or "Men".

The reference for obligatory service is:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5049-1.page

That is only the starting point; the reference for ROTP (as listed in the references of the above) is CFAO 9-12.  CFAOs are no longer being amended nor are they available on the internet (only available internally).  A copy is, however, available on the wayback machine http://web.archive.org/web/20051228112450/http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/009-12_e.asp .  The portion of that CFAO applicable to your question is:

Quote
ACADEMIC TRAINING

36.    Academic Standards. To be eligible for continued financial assistance
an officer cadet of the ROTP must maintain an academic standard
satisfactory to both the officer cadet's academic institution and to NDHQ.
Where necessary, arrangements will be made for writing supplemental
examinations (see paragraph 39).

37.    Academic Reports. Commandants of CMCs and ULOs shall forward term,
final and supplemental examination results to NDHQ/DPCO for all members of
the ROTP. If it is considered that an officer cadet is not making
sufficient progress to warrant continued subsidization, the commandant of a
CMC or ULO, as appropriate, shall forward a full report to NDHQ/DPCO.

38.    Unsatisfactory Academic Results. The following provisions apply to an
officer cadet under the ROTP who fails to maintain a satisfactory academic
standard:

     a.   permission to repeat an academic year or up to two academic
          terms, at his/her own expense, may be requested provided the
          member has not previously failed and repeated an academic year or
          two academic terms. Applications to repeat shall be forwarded to
          NDHQ/DPCO for approval and must be supported by the
          recommendation of the commandant of the appropriate CMC or the
          appropriate ULO;

     b.   an officer cadet attending a civilian academic institution who
          incurs a credit deficiency by failing or dropping one or more
          courses, thus requiring one or more additional academic terms to
          resolve the deficiency, must do so at the officer cadet's
          expense. During such a period, the officer cadet will be subject
          to the provisions of paragraph 35;

    c.   an officer cadet who is not recommended to repeat an academic
          year or term, or fails a repeat year or term, or is required to
          withdraw from an academic institution, may be considered for --

          (1)  continued military training under the OCTP,

          (2)  service as a NCM, or

          (3)  release from the CF;

     d.   an officer cadet who refuses to repeat an academic year or term
          may apply for one of the following:

          (1)  training under the OCTP,

          (2)  service as a NCM, or

          (3)  voluntary release from the CF in accordance with paragraphs
               26 and 27;

          An officer cadet who refuses to apply for any of the above
          options may be ordered to full-time service as an officer cadet
          pursuant to paragraph 28; and

     e.   notwithstanding subparagraphs a, b and c, an officer cadet who is
          not acceptable for further training or for whom there is no
          military requirement to warrant retention, may be compulsorily
          released.

39.    Supplemental Examinations. Fees for supplemental examinations will
not be paid by DND. When necessary, however, an officer cadet will be
excused military training in order to write such examinations. Where the
university requires that the supplemental examinations be written at a
place other than that where the officer cadet is training and before the
military training is completed, the commanding officer (CO) of the unit
where the officer cadet is training is authorized to return the member to
the university at public expense on approval of NDHQ/DPCO.
Whisky for the gentlemen that like it. And for the gentlemen that don't like it - Whisky.

Offline Calvillo

  • Guest
  • *
  • 570
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16
Re: Obligatory Service after Training / Education [MERGED]
« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2016, 14:06:25 »
Apologies. As I explained in the other thread, I am much more learned on the matters of U.S. Military than Canadian, for a number of reasons.

Thank you for the answer.