Author Topic: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively  (Read 48430 times)

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Offline GAP

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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2011, 18:05:01 »
The papers are reporting that Layton's funeral plans have been under discussion for a month. I'll wager that the state funeral issued surfaced in the PMO shortly after we all say Layton announce his new cancer. His inner circle of political advisors have had weeks to 'work' the media and 'script' this week. I suspect that much of what we are seeing by way of public reaction, while genuine, has been carefully but oh so gently 'directed.'

With the CBC and others with the broadcast rights? They're acting like it's NHL playoffs, to the point I most turn it off.......enough already....they're down to interviewing 7 year olds who claim he would have been a great man if he'd been PM......really  ::)
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Offline Brutus

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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2011, 18:12:45 »
The papers are reporting that Layton's funeral plans have been under discussion for a month. I'll wager that the state funeral issued surfaced in the PMO shortly after we all say Layton announce his new cancer. His inner circle of political advisors have had weeks to 'work' the media and 'script' this week. I suspect that much of what we are seeing by way of public reaction, while genuine, has been carefully but oh so gently 'directed.'

The same happened for Smokey Smith's (military) funeral and Laying in State. I can't imagine how daunting a task it would be to plan, organize, and execute one of these on 4 or 5 day's notice.

But I agree, the perception being cast of a strictly emotional and nonpartisan series of events is not accurate. Political considerations are most definitely on the forefront of many NDP'ers here.

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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2011, 18:24:27 »
With the CBC and others with the broadcast rights? They're acting like it's NHL playoffs, to the point I most turn it off.......enough already....they're down to interviewing 7 year olds who claim he would have been a great man if he'd been PM......really  ::)


This is manna from heaven for the TV news folks. The 24 hour news channels must be fed with something and a death like this, with a very visual 'star' who lived 99.9% of his life in the public eye is near prefect.

I remember the night Princess Di died, I was 'on the road' and dining, alone, at a rather nice riverfront pub near the Vancouver Airport when one of the pretty barmaids said something like "Do you know about Princess Dianna?" "Oh," I harrumphed, "she's just a vacuous young woman with a great press agent." The poor girl broke into tears and blubbered that she'd died ... I felt, momentarily, bad; later, as the weeks wore I on really, really wished she'd never taken that drive. I feel a bit worse for Layton; I think he was a more substantial person - more substantial than Dianna Spencer - but I'm also waiting for all this to pass.
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Offline Hammer Sandwich

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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2011, 19:22:51 »

.... I feel a bit worse for Layton; I think he was a more substantial person - more substantial than Dianna Spencer - but I'm also waiting for all this to pass.

Much agreed....even if I didn't subscribe to his party or politics...he was an excellent leader.
I'm not  a "sheep" type of person, but I know that my perforance improves under a good leader...

....they're down to interviewing 7 year olds who claim he would have been a great man if he'd been PM......really

That is a bit of asshattery....BUT IT'S NOT NEWS!!!
HOLY CRAP...GET A KID TO SAY SOMETHING!

They're just fishing for soundbites....the grownups are there to pay respect, the kids have no friggin' clue.

Fluff....fluff into the wind.....

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Offline Old Sweat

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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2011, 19:39:28 »
If anybody remembers, Mother Teresa died within 12 hours of Diana.

Offline JesseWZ

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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2011, 19:41:24 »
If anybody remembers, Mother Teresa died within 12 hours of Diana.

Mother Teresa's dead?!
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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2011, 19:58:57 »
Mother Teresa's dead?!

I remember being SUPER-PISSED about that, because I couldn't call my Mom, (non-CF related....lines were tied up)
And being SUPER-PISSED (as a Catholic), about the whole situation...

Flame if you will, I think Mother Theresa merited some attention.

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Offline Thucydides

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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2011, 20:09:43 »
Jack Layton's legacy....

In terms of what he achieved, I would say it really comes down to building an effective political machine so the NDP became competative in Federal elections. The machine was able to catch and ride the "Orange Crush" in Quebec and thankfully crush the National Socialist BQ, removing an obstacle that had paralized Paliament for many years.

Another legacy item (related to building the machine IMO) was to tone down a lot of the immoderate rhetoric from the Caucus and supporters of the NDP. We might know or suspect that in the background they still whisper about Canadian soldiers being war criminals and wanting to "eat the rich", and the internal machinery of the party is as opaque as ever, but this has faded from public view.

Perhaps the last piece of legacy is how well Jack himself managed to charm the media and massage the message. He was a cupable as the other two members of the "Coalition" in trying to subvert the will of the People, but managed to avoid much of the damage that Stephan Dion, Gilles Duceppe (and later Micheal Ignatieff) received over the entire affair.

In terms of policy, aside from blackmailing Paul Martin for billions of dollars in Federal spending to prop up the Liberal minority and then blackmailing Stephen Harper for a multi billion dollar "stimulus" after the Coalition fiasco, the NDP have not made any lasting policy changes, just some short term blips (with long term consequences, alas). Indeed, if the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance are to be believed, the spending taps will be shutting down rather than ramping up, and the flowering of "botique" tax cuts is putting taxation policy in the opposite direction that the NDP would advocate. Canada's military and foreign policy has been moving in a robust, internationally enhgaged "National Interests" direction, once again quite opposite to the NDP's isolationist "Little Canada" approach.
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Offline RDJP

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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2011, 20:21:21 »
Simply put, as someone before me mentioned.....it was the PM's prerogative to offer a state funeral, regardless of whether Mr. Layton was a PM, GG, or Minister of Cabinet.

Just like John Henry Foster Babcock.  And I don't remember hearing anyone complain about the fact that HE wasn't a PM, GG, or Minister of Cabinet.

Can't have things both ways.....

(if you have to Google Mr. Babcock's name, please don't reply.... ;D)



« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 20:26:31 by RDJP »

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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2011, 20:33:39 »
Jack Layton's legacy....


I kept trying to write a "cool retort", but I couldn't.....stupid Vista...
I don't, and never will wear "Jack" boots.

But I'm part of the DEMOGRAPHIC.
CANADIAN MALE, age 18 through 45.
I didn't like the NDP for all the reasons you posted....and I won't be partisan in the future.

But that guy led a group of people....(politicans and such)....to near-power.

That's what I think is "cool".

Just because I think he was cool, (and by saying so online, which I know carries weight), doesn't affect my vote.
I'll still vote for my choice.

Sure won't be  NDP, but I thought Jack Layton was cool.

So sue me.


edit: misspelled Canadian, for Chrissakes....


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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2011, 02:33:13 »
I didn't know Mr Layton personally, so I won't get in that long line of people spilling their platitudes, guts, and wearing their hearts on a sleeve about this ordinary socialist that got too much air time. I won't call him 'Jack" like he was my next door neighbour, because he wasn't and first names are reserved for people who you have met and have given you permission to use their surname. I'm sure he was a great guy to have a beer with, but he is just a person. A person that, until a week ago, most couldn't stand because of his communist values.

I am sorry for the way he went. No one wants to be saddled with that crap. I'm sorry for his family, that they had to endure this and I'm sorry for their loss. Cancer is a ***** and no one should have to endure it.

I didn't like his public persona, his policies or his yappy little ghetto dog attitude.

I am not sorry he's gone from politics. I'm not sorry that this will cause extreme gnashing of teeth in his party. And I won't be sorry if his party implodes because he is not at the helm.

To me, Jack Layton was a ponce and a poser. He played to the supposed downtrodden, socially unacceptable for their unwillingness to work, and any others that wanted something for nothing. He lived pretty high on the hog, between him and Olivia for a couple of 'We're all equal, power to the people' bullshit.

He also managed to shanghai every Union organization in the country. Not unexpected or difficult, considering the socialist bent, the small minded, short term worker agenda all these organizations have.

He is not a Saint, he is not a Martyr. He was a person who, most here an elseware, despised. He was a hypocrite. A typical politician. Get over it.

This is the guy that refused to attend Ramp Ceremonies.

He didn't go to Afghanistan, as many politicians from every party did, even though he could have gone to see first hand and chose not to.

He tried to use the deaths of fallen troops as part of his agenda on the 5 o'clock news. Least he could have done was go to a ramp ceremony, but he couldn't be bothered. I don't even remember any official statements either.

He called us "war criminals" with regards to the implications on mistreatment of Taliban detainees by the Afghan authorities. He couldn't look us in the eyes when these accusations were proven false and even offer an apology.

He wanted us to negotiate with an enemy that maims and murders women and children based on their archaic 12th century beliefs.

I really fail to see the 'greatness' of Jack Layton or why we are celebrating his passing. Great guy? My dad was a great guy, but the PM didn't acknowledge him.

Jack Layton was not that special. Quit pretending he was.

 That's my  :2c: on the subject. Mourn in private and spare us the bullshit platitudes.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 02:37:06 by recceguy »
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Offline GAP

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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2011, 07:03:41 »
That pretty much sums it up..... :nod:
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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2011, 07:07:30 »
That fairly much sums it up for me as well.  I took a dislike for the pair of Laytons when they were Toronto City Councilors and lived in Subsidized Housing.  That was a very immoral act in my eyes and a precursor to his and her future aspirations in Federal politics.   
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Offline frank1515

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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2011, 09:05:42 »
I do agree that the media is blowing Mr. Layton's passing out of proportion. I mean, I don't remember people making a big fuss over Romeo Leblanc passing, and he was GG! In any case, as stated by Recceguy, I'm no fan of Mr. Layton; not before his passing nor after. It's still my belief though, that no one deserve to die from cancer (obvious, I know).

As for the NDP, their inexperience will show in the next Parliamentary session, and I believe their so called "Orange Crush" was a fluke, and come next election (2015?) it will be between the Liberals and the Conservative (as it should) to duke it out. Depending on their next Leader, the NDP might become a non-issue, much like the Bloc Quebecois in the last election.
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Offline RDJP

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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2011, 09:21:57 »
Some good points here too:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/08/26/kevin-libin-the-crass-exploitation-of-jack-laytons-death/

Quote
Kevin Libin  Aug 26, 2011 – 8:25 AM ET | Last Updated: Aug 26, 2011 8:32 AM ET

Monday morning, after news of Jack Layton’s death broke, my inbox began flooding with press releases. Mind you, my inbox floods every other morning with press releases, almost every single one of which is utterly useless to me: announcements about some community college opening a new laboratory for corn-fertilizer research, or some obscure, fringe activist group expressing its support, or perhaps disdain, for a recent political development. On Monday, though, the deluge was different. This time, it was more like some community college extending its condolences over Layton’s death, or some obscure, fringe activist group announcing its grief over the loss. But then, maybe they weren’t that different after all.


CommunityAir, the Toronto Island activists intent on shutting down the City Centre airport, released a statement saying it “grieves for the loss of Jack Layton.” It spoke respectfully of Layton’s community activism and volunteerism. And then, it added this: “His leadership and inspiration, though, will serve to double our resolve to finally close the noxious, polluting Island Airport and create a park on the airport lands in his name.”

Quebec’s Kitigan Zibi Anishinabeg First Nation, meantime, sent out a news release on the pay-for-publicity service Marketwire, expressing its own sadness, and offering the Layton family condolences, while being sure to mention that “Mr. Layton was the only leader representing a national Federal party that stated that the Parliament of Canada and the City of Ottawa was established on Algonquin Territory. He had the courage to speak and walk the truth.”

The Federation of Canadian Municipalities wanted us all to know that “a most fitting tribute” to Layton would be to keep fighting for a better deal for Canadian communities.  The Canadian Arab Federation sent out an email to alert us all about how much Layton supported … the Canadian Arab Federation. The National Farmers Union’s mass email reminding mourners that Layton was a “fervent defender of the Canadian Wheat Board and supply management.” Well, what better way to collectively pay homage to a brave and noble leader than by honouring his passion for dairy and egg quotas?

In press release after press release, this group or that one sought to elevate its cause by attaching it to Jack Layton’s legacy, to capitalize on the national outpouring of goodwill for the man. It’s true that not all were as nakedly self-serving about it. And yes, some came from people and groups with close links to Layton, and seemed very well meaning.

But even in many cases where a message contained no obvious appeal to a cause or campaign, the source of such pronouncements alone seemed so curious that it was hard not to sense something almost cynical about the public declarations. I can’t imagine anyone, upon hearing the sad news about Layton, immediately wondered how the candidates in Alberta’s Progressive Conservative Leadership were feeling about it all. Yet their expressions sympathy for his family cascaded in, nonetheless. Such things don’t happen by accident and it was all too easy to picture the campaign strategists behind the scenes crafting the wording just right, envisioning how it would look in the newspapers next day, when Albertans would read in black-and-white just what a kind and caring human being their candidate is, as if we couldn’t just take their basic human impulses for granted.

At a certain point, perhaps around 11 am, Monday, this sort of posturing must have inevitably become self-perpetuating, given the spasm of public sorrow that had clearly taken hold in certain pockets of the nation. When the Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists piped up to extend its condolences to Layton’s friends and family — not forgetting, naturally, to jog our memories that he “was unwavering in his belief in the essential nature of the arts in Canada” — it can only have had the effect of making the folks at the David Suzuki Foundation feel that they too had better make the effort to chime in to extend their condolences, too. And to point out, just by the way, that Layton “united Canadians…around simple truth that environmental protection and social justice are inseparable,” and that he agreed wholeheartedly with their views on climate change.

When columnists in this newspaper dared to crash the public shiva for Layton with controversial critiques of his deathbed letter or plans for his state funeral, they were vehemently attacked as insensitive and disrespectful to the dead. But there’s a point where publicly advertising your sympathy while calculatedly drawing attention to yourself looks awfully insensitive and disrespectful, too. Imagine if a company like Trek bicycles marked Layton’s passing by issuing press releases expressing grief, while advertising how much he enjoyed pedaling their durable, light, fast, and fun-to-ride two-wheelers. Or if Sleeman offered a public consolation while asking us to take comfort in the fact that his living years were made that much sweeter by the extra body and clean finish of their Silver Creek Lager. Even if there was some truth to the claims, we’d have no trouble recognizing them as crass exploitation of the man’s death for promotional purposes. When activists and non-profits spike their eulogies with commercials for their pet causes, the tactlessness may be slightly subtler. But it’s there, just the same.

National Post

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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2011, 09:30:35 »
.....
This is the guy that refused to attend Ramp Ceremonies.

He didn't go to Afghanistan, as many politicians from every party did, even though he could have gone to see first hand and chose not to.

He tried to use the deaths of fallen troops as part of his agenda on the 5 o'clock news. Least he could have done was go to a ramp ceremony, but he couldn't be bothered. I don't even remember any official statements either.

He called us "war criminals" with regards to the implications on mistreatment of Taliban detainees by the Afghan authorities. He couldn't look us in the eyes when these accusations were proven false and even offer an apology.......

I honestly didn't know any of that.

I appreciate that clarification, GW.

This has definitely given me a different perspective.

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Offline Redeye

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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2011, 09:59:58 »
That fairly much sums it up for me as well.  I took a dislike for the pair of Laytons when they were Toronto City Councilors and lived in Subsidized Housing.  That was a very immoral act in my eyes and a precursor to his and her future aspirations in Federal politics.

They never lived in subsidized housing - they lived in a cooperative that had subsidized units, but they paid full fair market value. That oft-trotted out claim was fairly regularly debunked.

As for calling us "war criminals", did he ever actually say that? Not that I'm aware of, but if someone wants to prove me wrong, go ahead. He took the detainee handling matter very seriously, and fair enough. There were quite a lot of Canadians who had a degree of interest and concern about the matter. The issue was brought into the light, discussed at length, and the matter was then closed. I have no issue with that. That's kind of the guy's job being in an opposition party. Yes, there's a subset of NDP supporters who dislike militaries, who think war is the ugliest of things, etc, but that's by no means all of them, and regardless, they have an opinion they're entitled to. Hell, there are NDP folks like Peter Stoffer who tend to get support in military communities too, after all. Mr. Layton managed to get these people behind him and unified into a force that got him made the Leader of the Official Opposition.

Would I ever have voted for him or his party? Not in a million years. Did I respect him as a leader more than any other federal party leader I can think of in my lifetime anyhow? Yes.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 10:08:53 by Redeye »
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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2011, 10:11:06 »
I didn't like most of Layton's policies/positions, either.  However.....
He tried to use the deaths of fallen troops as part of his agenda on the 5 o'clock news. Least he could have done was go to a ramp ceremony, but he couldn't be bothered. I don't even remember any official statements either.
.... I don't know if a statement was issued for each of the fallen, but it wasn't zero on that score, either.
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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2011, 10:20:41 »
They never lived in subsidized housing - they lived in a cooperative that had subsidized units, but they paid full fair market value. That oft-trotted out claim was fairly regularly debunked.

As for calling us "war criminals", did he ever actually say that? Not that I'm aware of, but if someone wants to prove me wrong, go ahead. He took the detainee handling matter very seriously, and fair enough. There were quite a lot of Canadians who had a degree of interest and concern about the matter. The issue was brought into the light, discussed at length, and the matter was then closed. I have no issue with that. That's kind of the guy's job being in an opposition party. Yes, there's a subset of NDP supporters who dislike military, who think war is the ugliest of things, etc, but that's by no means all of them, and regardless, they have an opinion they're entitled to. Mr. Layton managed to get these people behind him and unified into a force that got him made the Leader of the Official Opposition.

Would I ever have voted for him or his party? Not in a million years. Did I respect him as a leader more than any other federal party leader I can think of in my lifetime anyhow? Yes.


You're right about the co-op; it is an old canard that has been refuted every single time but it's a chestnut - hard to bury.

I don't recall him ever using "war criminal" and "Canadian Forces" in the same sentence, and I like to think i would have noticed. But he did get close: he talked about "suspicions" and "war crimes" and the government, which includes the CF. He was a very smart, very clever man who was appealing to his base; he knew he didn't need to appeal to us, the military and its supporters, so he could smear and allude and still avoid actually calling us you war criminals - but his base knew what he meant and he demeaned himself by doing it.

The detainee issue was fabricated - I stand by that word - by the NDP. Layton was the NDP's leader and, reportedly a good one; he was, therefore, in my opinion responsible for the detainee handling=war crimes lie.

Layton was, at heart, a conservative - he wanted to turn back the clock to a T.C. Douglas/Pierre Trudea era that, really, never existed except in the fevered imaginations of Dippers. And you're right they are the sort of people who think war is the ugliest thing but, of course, in that, as in everything else, the Dippers are wrong, again, because, as John Stuart Mill said, "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

That was Layton and is the NDP: a miserable creature, a 'kept man,' with no chance of being free.
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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2011, 10:27:13 »
I knew you'd pick up on my allusion to Mill, Mr. Campbell.


You're right about the co-op; it is an old canard that has been refuted every single time but it's a chestnut - hard to bury.

I don't recall him ever using "war criminal" and "Canadian Forces" in the same sentence, and I like to think i would have noticed. But he did get close: he talked about "suspicions" and "war crimes" and the government, which includes the CF. He was a very smart, very clever man who was appealing to his base; he knew he didn't need to appeal to us, the military and its supporters, so he could smear and allude and still avoid actually calling us you war criminals - but his base knew what he meant and he demeaned himself by doing it.

The detainee issue was fabricated - I stand by that word - by the NDP. Layton was the NDP's leader and, reportedly a good one; he was, therefore, in my opinion responsible for the detainee handling=war crimes lie.

Layton was, at heart, a conservative - he wanted to turn back the clock to a T.C. Douglas/Pierre Trudea era that, really, never existed except in the fevered imaginations of Dippers. And you're right they are the sort of people who think war is the ugliest thing but, of course, in that, as in everything else, the Dippers are wrong, again, because, as John Stuart Mill said, "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

That was Layton and is the NDP: a miserable creature, a 'kept man,' with no chance of being free.
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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2011, 10:35:20 »
They never lived in subsidized housing - they lived in a cooperative that had subsidized units, but they paid full fair market value. That oft-trotted out claim was fairly regularly debunked.

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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2011, 11:18:41 »
In the interest of full disclosure in what rose coloured world does one pay $800.00 "market rent" for a 3 bedroom apartment in downtown Toronto in the 1990's?  ::)

I lived literally around the corner from Jack and Olivia then and was paying that (actually  bit more IIRC) for a tiny 500-600 sq feet 1 bedroom that, while sufficent for both my needs and salary, one would be hard pressed to swing a dead cat in. They had a nice view of the city skyline. I overlooked a bunch of crack dealers.

The Hazelbourne Co op also held one hell of a party when Jack and Olivia finally moved out, but I'm sure that was just a coincidence.  8)
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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2011, 12:12:55 »
In the interest of full disclosure in what rose coloured world does one pay $800.00 "market rent" for a 3 bedroom apartment in downtown Toronto in the 1990's?  ::)

I lived literally around the corner from Jack and Olivia then and was paying that (actually  bit more IIRC) for a tiny 500-600 sq feet 1 bedroom that, while sufficent for both my needs and salary, one would be hard pressed to swing a dead cat in. They had a nice view of the city skyline. I overlooked a bunch of crack dealers.

The Hazelbourne Co op also held one hell of a party when Jack and Olivia finally moved out, but I'm sure that was just a coincidence.  8)

Indeed, he may not have done anything "wrong" from a legal sense, but I read some shaky moral and ethical implications.
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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2011, 12:26:44 »
In the interest of full disclosure in what rose coloured world does one pay $800.00 "market rent" for a 3 bedroom apartment in downtown Toronto in the 1990's?  ::)
If you believe mariomike's G&M article, it sounds like they paid more around $1100 a month - a bit closer? (I have no clue re:  TO pricing in those days)

That said....
Indeed, he may not have done anything "wrong" from a legal sense, but I read some shaky moral and ethical implications.
It's all about the optics (who isn't getting rent-controlled space when they're paying allegedly full market in a co-op?), and if ANYBODY should have known that, it would have been someone like JL.
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Re: A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively
« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2011, 12:27:31 »
There are always problems between hagiography and reality; you guys need to cut Saint Jack some slack during this canonization process.



I saw him walking on water once.  :nod:   


Sure, we was wearing skates at the time; so what of it? Unbelievers
>:(