Author Topic: BFT for CIC Officers.  (Read 107592 times)

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Offline RussBar119

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BFT for CIC Officers.
« on: September 25, 2011, 18:27:56 »
Hello everyone,

I had a very unique opportunity today. I did the BFT with the Essex and Scottish. It was an amazing experience and I completed the 13K with no prior training in 2hrs and 15 minutes and 46 seconds.  I also completed the casualty drag and had an opportunity to talk with many members of the E&K who really are an amazing unit with an amazing history.
I put it out to all CIC Officers that we can and should be held to the same level of physical fitness standards as the rest of the CF and I encourage Officers to talk to the Affil. unit and find out when the unit holds the BFT and consider at least trying it. When I first started  I overheard some of them saying that they didn't think I would make it 3K, after it was done they had a different view and respect.
I do admit though I felt like a rube when they issued me a helmet and tac vest and rifle, considering I do not get issued that equipment it was a slight learning curve to get it all put on properly.

I hope all CIC officers reading this will consider the challenge and step up.

Thanks goes out the Essex and Scottish Regiment, especially the Sergeant that kept verbally pushing me forward.
Always volunteer when the situation arises, it will pay off dividends later on. Every time my boss at work or senior officer asks for volunteers I step up, it has led to some amazing learning experiences.

Offline Brihard

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2011, 18:58:54 »
Don't take this the wrong way, but CIC officers *are* held to the same physical fitness standard as the rest of the CF. The CF standard for fitness is the CF EXPRES test. The Battle Fitness Test is unique to the land force, and is intended to represent the physical fitness demands of dismounted combat operations whereupon one is expected to be able to march from one position to the next, dig in a defensive position (damned if I've yet to find a base built on pea gravel), and then move a casualty from point A to point B. It's not a relevant test for CIC officers from the standpoint of functionality, and frankly if the CIC were to be held to such a standard it would lose many otherwise proficient CIC officers.

You trade's role is not the conduct nor the approximation of battle tasks, and so to apply battle task standards is both unrealistic and unfair to CIC officers who are fully proficient in the actual job of working with youth, but who may not have the degree of fitness expected of a combat arms or combat service support soldier. CIC oficers are not soldiers, and are held to accordingly different standards.

With all that said, I do applaud you for showing up with your affiliated (I assume) regiment and doing the BFT- going above and beyond is always to be lauded.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Tarlouth

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2011, 19:29:06 »
t CIC officers *are* held to the same physical fitness standard as the rest of the CF.

Can that be true ?  If it was, then I think that a good chunk of the CIC would be receiving their walking papers.

Offline Ditch

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2011, 19:41:39 »
The CF standard for fitness is the CF EXPRES test.
CIC are not subject to CF EXPRES standards.
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Offline Ditch

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2011, 19:42:23 »
when they issued me a helmet and tac vest and rifle
Did they issue you the new style ruck-sack too?
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Offline RussBar119

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2011, 19:47:14 »
No it was the old O.D A frame.
Always volunteer when the situation arises, it will pay off dividends later on. Every time my boss at work or senior officer asks for volunteers I step up, it has led to some amazing learning experiences.

MikeL

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2011, 19:58:47 »

Offline RussBar119

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2011, 20:02:40 »
Yes it was.
Always volunteer when the situation arises, it will pay off dividends later on. Every time my boss at work or senior officer asks for volunteers I step up, it has led to some amazing learning experiences.

Offline X Royal

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2011, 09:33:17 »
old OD A Frame?

was it this ruck? The 82 pattern
http://www.greatadventure.ca/00cart/Candypress/ProdImages/xl_CFBACKPACK2.jpg
And I use to refer to that rucksack as the "new one". ;)

Offline northernboy_24

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2011, 10:18:07 »
The CF standard for fitness is the CF EXPRES test. The Battle Fitness Test is unique to the land force

The funny thing about this statement is that in the navy if you fail several cf express tests even with the time off for forced remedial pt they will send you to St Jean to do a BFT.  Apparently they dont want to loose the out of shape people so much they have a second standard.  It does effect the promotion board standing but they stay in the forces.  Even Reg force are not held up to the "CF standard for fitness"

I do not think it is correct just stating the facts.  We do however have a commander of the Royal Canadian Navy that likes fitness and does 80 pushups when he wakes up.


cheers

Offline Strike

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2011, 12:00:26 »
RussBar, good on you for doing the BFT.  Even though it's not a requirement for you, it's certainly a good way to meet the people in your unit and promote esprit de corps between you.  If anything, this will hopefully encourage the unit to become more involved in the corps they are affiliated with and provide even more people for the cadets to look up to.
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Online Blackadder1916

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2011, 12:03:51 »
The funny thing about this statement is that in the navy if you fail several cf express tests even with the time off for forced remedial pt they will send you to St Jean to do a BFT.  Apparently they dont want to loose the out of shape people so much they have a second standard.  It does effect the promotion board standing but they stay in the forces.  Even Reg force are not held up to the "CF standard for fitness"

I do not think it is correct just stating the facts.  We do however have a commander of the Royal Canadian Navy that likes fitness and does 80 pushups when he wakes up.


cheers

Are you sure that they are going to St. Jean to do a "BFT" (which I find unlikely) or are they going there to do "CMTFE" (which is a normal process for someone who has failed the other physical fitness evaluations).  The two are not the same.  The BFT is primarily a rucksack march.  The items tested in the CMTFE (common military tasks fitness evaluation) are somewhat described in DAOD 5023-2, Physical Fitness Program.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5023-2-eng.asp
Quote
Common Military Tasks as a Basis for Minimum Physical Fitness Standards

The MPFS are derived from the following five common military tasks which a CF member might be expected to perform in a time of emergency:

sea evacuation;

land stretcher evacuation;

low-high crawl;

entrenchment dig; and

sandbag carry.

As for your knowledge of what the RCN commander does in his bedroom upon waking, I'll leave the speculation as to how you acquired this information to the more salacious members of this forum.  But for some reason a old tune came to mind, "the cabin boy, the cabin boy, the dirty little nipper, he . . . . " .
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Offline Pugsley

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2011, 22:48:54 »
CIC are not subject to CF EXPRES standards.

  I had to do it on my recruitment process  ??? .  Oh well, I have taken the opportunity to go with the regiment on several exercises including the BFT.  Good learning experience overall.

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2011, 22:52:32 »
just stating the facts. 

Incorrect ones at that.

Offline Brihard

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2011, 12:46:28 »
CIC are not subject to CF EXPRES standards.

My apologies- I stand corrected.

Regarding a previous comment- I think any one of us could stand outside NDHQ at lunch time and spot any number of individuals who have undoubtedly received questionable exemptions from the fitness standards. If we're going to take stabs at fat CIC officers, that criticism will have to be applied more generally all over the CF.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Scott

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2011, 13:15:49 »
Brihard, is this the post you're talking about?

Can that be true ?  If it was, then I think that a good chunk of the CIC would be receiving their walking papers.

Regarding a previous comment- I think any one of us could stand outside NDHQ at lunch time and spot any number of individuals who have undoubtedly received questionable exemptions from the fitness standards. If we're going to take stabs at fat CIC officers, that criticism will have to be applied more generally all over the CF.

I don't see what's wrong here. Simple auggestion about the CIC in a CIC related thread. There are other threads about this sort of thing as it relates to PRes and Reg Force pers, I've seen 'em. And I note that the word "fat" didn't come from anyone other than you.

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Offline Rheostatic

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2011, 17:08:46 »
From this week's Maple Leaf:
Quote
Unless exempt, members of the Regular Force and Primary Reserve are required to meet the mandatory physical fitness standard on an annual basis to ensure they are physically capable of performing basic military duties. Members of the other Reserve subcomponents, i.e., Canadian Rangers, Cadet Instructor Cadre (CIC) and Supplementary Reserve, are required to meet the mandatory physical fitness standard on an annual basis if attached, seconded or transferred on consent to the Regular Force or Primary Reserve. Personnel are expected to perform to the standard of the environment in which they currently serve. However, those employed in groups other than Army, Navy or Air Force (i.e. VCDS , CMP, Fin CS etc), are expected to perform to the standard of the uniform they wear.

Offline Brihard

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2011, 17:24:12 »
Brihard, is this the post you're talking about?

I don't see what's wrong here. Simple auggestion about the CIC in a CIC related thread. There are other threads about this sort of thing as it relates to PRes and Reg Force pers, I've seen 'em. And I note that the word "fat" didn't come from anyone other than you.

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We can pretend that a comment about many CIC officers "receiving their walking papers." in response to a comment about 'held to the same fitness standards as the rest of the C.F." isn't a reference to many being fat and out of shape, but we're all smarter than that, so let's skip the pretense.

In any case, since my original statement - that they need to do EXPRES - was incorrect anyway, it's a moot point.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Scott

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2011, 18:30:03 »
We can pretend that a comment about many CIC officers "receiving their walking papers." in response to a comment about 'held to the same fitness standards as the rest of the C.F." isn't a reference to many being fat and out of shape, but we're all smarter than that, so let's skip the pretense.

Or we can take it at face value and not pretend that every single negative comment about the CIC is meant to bash them, perhaps it's just a criticism.

I happen to agree with the statement. I also agree that there are many others whom would suffer the same fate. I have not seen CIC bashing from the poster so I am not taking it as such. When we jump to calling it what we think it is instead of giving benefit of the doubt we can cause as much trouble as the real thing.
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Offline PViddy

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2011, 08:36:00 »
Good on ya Russ, although the BFT or EXPRES test is not a requirement for us CIC folks, it certainly won't hurt and attempt at better relations with your affiliated PRes unit (as was mentioned) and maybe, just maybe, change a few opinions in the process.

cheers

PV
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Offline Northalbertan

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2011, 09:26:39 »
I agree with  PViddy.  Good on you.  And I think it reflects well on the CIC. 

There is nothing stopping any CIC officer who wishes from completing the BFT.  I also agree that it can't help but foster a better relationship with the affiliated unit.   Granted there are some CIC who for various reasons can't complete the BFT.  They aren't required to, but for those who want to?  Give 'er.

Again, good job!!   :nod:

Northalbertan



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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2011, 09:36:43 »
We can pretend that a comment about many CIC officers "receiving their walking papers." in response to a comment about 'held to the same fitness standards as the rest of the C.F." isn't a reference to many being fat and out of shape, but we're all smarter than that, so let's skip the pretense.

In any case, since my original statement - that they need to do EXPRES - was incorrect anyway, it's a moot point.


It's true most CIC types aren't up to soldiers standards of fitness, but,  their not soldiers.
You could probably get into a decent debate about them getting a commission, collecting pay, being saluted etc..  Personally I say at the end of the day their hearts in the right place so good on them.
Soldiers and Officers out of NDHQ with the shady exempt passes that you mentioned are something else completely and I agree.
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Offline Haggis

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2011, 15:10:58 »
It's true most CIC types aren't up to soldiers standards of fitness, but,  their not soldiers.
You could probably get into a decent debate about them getting a commission, collecting pay, being saluted etc..  Personally I say at the end of the day their hearts in the right place so good on them.
  A large percentage of CIC put in countless hours of unpaid work every year supporting the largest youth movement in Canada.  Many are former/retired Reg F and P Res comissioned officers with years of real world experience under their belts and are entitled to a salute.

Soldiers and Officers out of NDHQ units across the CF with the shady exempt passes that you mentioned are something else completely and I agree.

There, I fixed it for you.  ;)
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Offline Scott

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2011, 15:18:00 »
  A large percentage of CIC put in countless hours of unpaid work every year supporting the largest youth movement in Canada.  Many are former/retired Reg F and P Res comissioned officers with years of real world experience under their belts and are entitled to a salute.

There, I fixed it for you.  ;)

Thanks for the reminder of that, it is wise for all of us to keep this in mind before posting opinions on the matter.

No need for rebuttals, folks, that's been done to death here. Haggis is bang on.

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2011, 18:10:57 »
  A large percentage of CIC put in countless hours of unpaid work every year supporting the largest youth movement in Canada.  Many are former/retired Reg F and P Res commissioned officers with years of real world experience under their belts and are entitled to a salute.

I have no issue with saluting CIC officers at all. In fact I'm quite happy to do so and I'll go out of my way to salute them if they are in front of their cadets. I'll also ensure anyone below me in rank pays CIC officers and cadets the same amount of respect (in the latter using their rank when speaking to them)

The context of my comment was that I've seen some arguments about saluting CIC officers due to requirements (for lack of a better word) to get the scroll/commission.  I believe an ex colonel or CWO turn CIC is well deserving of a salute for sure.  Being honest I think that's somewhat different than a 19 year old doing a couple of weeks whatever they do then falling under the same tree.
That said, they do fall under the same tree and since a soldier is most happy when following orders, I'm happy to salute them.
Obedience.

Regarding them doing BFTs, if I was younger I would say since they are in uniform, commissioned officers in the CF  and paid I think?  they should be held to the same standard as anyone else in uniform.
Now it doesn't bug me either way.
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