Author Topic: BFT for CIC Officers.  (Read 105741 times)

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Offline dogger1936

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #75 on: December 14, 2011, 21:03:39 »
So you agree....CIC members have not deployed to Afghanistan as CIC members.

It is not "not exactly the same thing"................it's not at all.

Precisely.


I wish people like Aken13 would spend a little more time focusing on the youth in the program than pretending to be something they are not. It's a large problem within the youth group in which CIC administer.

While police like the above deploy in their civilian role from time to time; no CIC have the training or mandate to do so. CIC training of a 6 day course on writing a memo and some powerpoint on "leadership" is not a good training base to deploy to a war zone with a platoon of soldiers with.

Please stop pretending you are anything remotely close to a soldier. your not.  You act as a leader of children in a community based youth program much like beavers and scouts.

If you can wear the uniform properly it would be appreciated and a step in the right direction; as many of us soldiers buried our friends in the same uniform your wearing. It makes me ill to see it poorly worn and used as a prop in a magical world of make believe.

Offline dogger1936

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #76 on: December 15, 2011, 11:24:50 »
 I would also like to ask if anyone can direct me to a written direction on the ability of CIC to lead regular force or reserve force soldiers. I have HEARD that they cannot; yet can't seem to find anything on it. Anyone ever see this written somewhere?

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #77 on: December 15, 2011, 12:48:29 »
I would also like to ask if anyone can direct me to a written direction on the ability of CIC to lead regular force or reserve force soldiers. I have HEARD that they cannot; yet can't seem to find anything on it. Anyone ever see this written somewhere?

CANFORGEN 081/05 VCDS 016 270938Z APR 05
CLARIFICATION ON THE USE OF CADET INSTRUCTOR CADRE (CIC) OFFICERS OUTSIDE THE CANADIAN CADET MOVEMENT
UNCLASSIFIED


REFS: A. DGRC MESSAGE 488 011853Z SEP 98
B. D RES MESSAGE 311 041411Z FEB 04



THIS MESSAGE REPLACES REFERENCE B. THE POLICY ON TERMS OF SERVICE FOR CIC OFFICERS HAS BEEN APPLIED INCONSISTENTLY OVER THE YEARS. WITH THE IMPENDING IMPLEMENTATION OF AN OCCUPATIONAL STRUCTURE FOR CIC OFFICERS SOME OF THE ISSUES REGARDING PERMISSIBLE USE OF CIC OFFRS WILL BE RESOLVED. THERE STILL MAY BE SOME AGENCIES OUTSIDE THE CCM WHO UNKNOWINGLY MISUSE MEMBERS OF THE CIC. THE PURPOSE OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO REITERATE THE POLICY THAT CIC OFFICERS WILL NOT BE USED OUTSIDE THE CCM


THE PRIMARY DUTY OF A CIC OFFICER IS THE SAFETY, SUPERVISION, ADMINISTRATION, AND TRAINING OF CADETS. AS DEFINED IN QR&O 2.034(C), THE RAISON D'ETRE OF CIC OFFICERS IS TO BE EXPERTS IN YOUTH LEADERSHIP ON BEHALF OF THE CF


THE PURPOSE OF REFERENCE A WAS TO REMIND EMPLOYERS THAT THE CIC HAT BADGE IS NOT BE USED AS A BADGE OF CONVENIENCE TO ALLOW PERSONNEL TO LEAVE THE REGULAR FORCE OR THE PRIMARY RESERVE AT THE AGE OF 55 AND CONTINUE THEIR SERVICE IN THE CF WHILE WEARING THE CIC HAT BADGE AND CONTINUING IN THEIR SAME JOB UNTIL THE AGE OF 65 - THE CRA FOR CIC OFFICERS. THE MESSAGE STATED, IT IS ONLY WHEN HE/SHE IS EMPLOYED IN DIRECT SUPPORT OF CCO ACTIVITIES THAT A CIC OFFICER OR A SUPP RES MEMBER ATTACHED TO THE CIC MAY BE ON ACTIVE SERVICE UNTIL AGE 65. THE MESSAGE WENT ON TO STATE, ACTION ADDRESSES ARE TO TAKE IMMEDIATE ACTION TO ENSURE THAT ABUSES OF THIS TYPE CEASE IMMEDIATELY.


REFERENCE B WAS ISSUED TO REINFORCE REFERENCE A AND TO END THE INAPPROPRIATE USE OF CIC OFFICERS IN POSITIONS THAT ARE NOT IN SUPPORT OF THE CCM. IN REFERENCE B, DRES STATED, THE AIM OF THIS DIRECTION IS TO MINIMIZE THE NUMBER OF CIC OFFICERS OUTSIDE OF THE CCO ON NON-CADET RELATED ACTIVITIES. EVENTUALLY CIC OFFICERS WILL BE USED ONLY IN CHIEF OF RESERVE AND CADETS DIVISION, CADET UNITS, REGIONAL CADET SUPPORT UNITS OR DETACHMENTS, CADET SUMMER TRAINING CENTERS (CSTCS), GLIDING SCHOOLS, SAIL CENTERS, AS STAFF OFFICERS ON PROJECTS OR IN OTHER STAFF POSITIONS THAT CAN BE DIRECTLY RELATED TO SUPPORT OF CIC OR CADET RELATED ACTIVITIES. CIC OFFICERS WERE REMINDED THAT IF THEY WISHED TO CONTINUE THEIR SERVICE OUTSIDE THE CCM, THEY SHOULD REQUEST A TRANSFER TO THE PRES


HENCEFORTH, CIC OFFICERS WILL ONLY BE USED ON CADET-RELATED ACTIVITIES AND ONLY IN THOSE POSITIONS DETAILED IN PARAGRAPH FOUR. NO CIC OFFICER CURRENTLY ON RESERVE SERVICE OUTSIDE THE CCM (OR FORMER CIC OFFICERS WHO ARE CURRENTLY ON THE SUPP RES OR ATTACHED FROM THE SUPP RES) WILL BE EXTENDED BEYOND THE COMPLETION OF HIS OR HER CURRENT ONE YEAR TERM OF SERVICE. QUESTIONS REGARDING PERMISSIBLE EMPLOYMENT ARE TO BE DIRECTED TO THE DRES STAFF AT DGRC. FURTHER, ALL REGIONAL COMMANDERS ARE TO CONDUCT A STAFF CHECK TO CONFIRM THAT ALL CIC OFFICERS ON THEIR ESTABLISHMENTS OCCUPY CIC POSITIONS AND THAT ALL THOSE CIC OFFICERS ARE WORKING IN POSITIONS THAT DIRECTLY SUPPORT THE CCM. YOUR STAFFS ARE TO INFORM BOTH DRES AND DCDTS OF THE RESULT OF THIS STAFF CHECK BY 31 MAY 05.THE RESULT OF THIS STAFF CHECK BE COMPARED WITH EXISTING RPSR DATA TO CONFIRM THE NUMBER OF CIC OFFICERS WHO REMAIN EMPLOYED OUTSIDE THE CCM
 
 
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Offline NFLD Sapper

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #78 on: December 15, 2011, 12:53:04 »
2.034 – RESERVE FORCE – SUB-COMPONENTS
   
The sub-components of the Reserve Force are:
    (a) the Primary Reserve, which consists of officers and non-commissioned members who have undertaken, by the terms of their enrolment, to perform such military duty and training as may be required of them and contains all formed Reserve Force units;
       (b) the Supplementary Reserve, which consists of officers and non-commissioned members who, except when on active service, are not required to perform military or any other form of duty or training;
      (c) the Cadet Organizations Administration and Training Service, which consists of officers and non-commissioned members who, by the terms of their enrolment or transfer, and supported by members of the Regular Force and members of the other Reserve Force sub-components, have undertaken as their primary duty the supervision, administration and training of cadets or junior Canadian rangers who are members of the cadet organizations referred to in section 46 of the National Defence Act.
      (2 June 2009)      (2 juin 2009) 
  (d) the Canadian Rangers, which consists of officers and non-commissioned members who have undertaken, by the terms of their enrolment, to perform such military duty and training as may be required of them, but who are not required to undergo annual training
 
National Defence Act, Sect 46

Cadet Organizations

Formation

46. (1) The Minister may authorize the formation of cadet organizations under the control and supervision of the Canadian Forces to consist of persons of not less than twelve years of age who have not attained the age of nineteen years.

Training, administration, provision and command

(2) The cadet organizations referred to in subsection (1) shall be trained for such periods, administered in such manner and provided with materiel and accommodation under such conditions, and shall be subject to the authority and command of such officers, as the Minister may direct.

Not part of Canadian Forces

(3) The cadet organizations referred to in subsection (1) are not comprised in the Canadian Forces.

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Offline quadrapiper

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #79 on: December 15, 2011, 13:35:43 »
A note - neither of those references governs, in the broad sense, "leadership of Reg/PRes pers by CIC." Both make the purpose and application of CIC pers clear: lead/admin/support the cadet programs. In that context, there are no restrictions on the ability of CIC to lead any Reg or PRes personnel assigned to them. No different than any other officer in the CF - lead those assigned to you, and otherwise let good judgement and the regs guide your interactions with personnel junior to you outside your unit/trade/shop/whatever.

Offline Haggis

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #80 on: December 15, 2011, 14:14:25 »
A note - neither of those references governs, in the broad sense, "leadership of Reg/PRes pers by CIC." Both make the purpose and application of CIC pers clear: lead/admin/support the cadet programs. In that context, there are no restrictions on the ability of CIC to lead any Reg or PRes personnel assigned to them. No different than any other officer in the CF - lead those assigned to you, and otherwise let good judgement and the regs guide your interactions with personnel junior to you outside your unit/trade/shop/whatever.

True - to a point.

CIC/COATS officers can lead or be in command of Reg F and P Res members posted/attach posted to units or organizations that form part of the Cadet establishment.   Tthey shall not be employed in such responsibilites outside the CCM. 

Train like your life depends on it.  Some day, it may.

Offline dogger1936

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #81 on: December 15, 2011, 14:44:24 »
The position I am in is a reg force position in a cadet detachment. Our regular force ACO Capt position is currently held by a CIC officer.

Can CIC be ACO's at a det level in a regular force position?

 This is the worse work situation I've ever been in during my career. I am the third reg force ACA qho has held the position in the past couple years due to this place. Something needs to change and I am trying to make it better for the next guys coming in. I've never seen such unprofessionalisim and power tripping from any officer in the CF as much as I've seen here.

Offline dogger1936

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #82 on: December 15, 2011, 14:45:21 »
To add thanks guys for the references. Very much appreciated.

Offline rogsco

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #83 on: December 15, 2011, 16:33:29 »
Is this a true statement?  Arn't all members of the CF technically sailors, soldiers, and airmen/airwomen regardless of trade/officer classification?  Agreed that a different standard may be held for certain members of the CF but to say they arn't soldiers would be an untrue statement as they are reported as such in official figures such as to the UN or NATO etc. and are also held to the same responsibilities (such as unlimited liability, held to the CSD etc.) as other soldiers.

Duty With Honour - The Profession of Arms in Canada

In the Canadian Forces, all non-commissioned members (NCMs), especially senior non-commissioned officers (Sr NCOs), warrant officers (WOs), petty officers and chief petty officers (POs and CPOs), share leadership responsibilities and are required to master complex skills and gain extensive knowledge of the theory of conflict. Therefore, and in accordance with the criteria listed, all regular force members of the CF, regardless of rank, are members of the profession of arms. Although not necessarily on full-time service, primary reserve members are an essential component of the nation’s military capability and meet the criteria, and thus are accorded professional status. On active duty, they assume the status and identity of full-time military professionals.

Note, no mention of COATS, Rangers, Supp Res, only Reg F and P Res.

Not flaming... just saying. Put the above quote in context with the raison d'être for the COATS sub-component of the Res F and you decide for yourself if this answers the question are CIC considered soldiers.

That aside, good on the OP for taking the initiative. Fitness is a good thing. My Rx to everyone: Eat less, Move more. I would recommend any CIC officer considering BFT (LFCPFS) familiarize themselves with CATO 23-11 guidance for CIC officers volunteering for duty without pay (unique to that sub-component).
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Offline quadrapiper

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #84 on: December 15, 2011, 17:16:33 »
Just a note on CATO 23-11; it applies to all reservists supporting cadet activities without pay.

References:
Quote from: CATO 23-11 CADET INSTRUCTORS SUPPORTING CADET ACTIVITIES WITHOUT PAY
3. The term “Cadet Instructor” used in this order has the same meaning as defined in article 1.02 of QR (Cadets).
Quote from: QR&O Cadets
1.02 - DEFINITIONS
(1) In QR (Cadets) and in all orders and instructions respecting cadets, unless the context otherwise requires:

"cadet instructor" means an officer of the Cadet Instructors List, and includes a member of another subcomponent of the Reserve Force while he or she is instructing cadets;

Offline Pusser

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #85 on: December 15, 2011, 21:31:49 »
The primary role of a CIC officer (i.e. the supervision and training of cadets) is irrelevant to their status as officers in the CF.  The fact is, CIC officers ARE officers - plain and simple.  The hold the same Queen's Commission as any other officer in the CF (save Chaplains).  This means they have the same responsibilities, privileges and liabilities as any other officer of the same rank.  Are they qualified to lead an infantry platoon in battle?  No, of course not, but neither is a MARS officer.  However, if a MARS officer happens to be in Gagetown and sees a bunch of soldiers chewing bubble gum and standing around outside the Canex with their berets in their pockets, their shirts undone and making rude gestures at passing cars, would anyone think that MARS officer would be out of line or not allowed to speak to and correct them?  In fact, he's obligated to do something, notwithstanding the fact that he is not in their chain of command, nor qualified in any way to direct them on operations.

The directives quoted above make no mention of any restriction on CIC officers leading Regular or Reserve Force personnel - because their isn't one.  CIC officers lead Regular and Reserve Force personnel all the time.  All the above-quoted directives do is clarify the CIC's role.  This was necessary because of abuses where units were bringing personnel on strength who were too old to serve in the Regular or Reserve Force, putting a CIC badge on them and then employing them differently (e.g. take an ex-Reg Force officer who is 63 years old and employing him as a staff officer in a HQ doing something totally unrelated to cadets).  In other words, there were cases where the CIC was being used/abused to get around the compulsory retirement rules.  For the most part, the folks in this situation had likely never functioned as actual cadet officers.  There were also cases where folks with civilian qualifications were misemployed based on these civilian qualifications as opposed to their military ones (e.g. civilian lawyers who happen to be Reserve infantry officers used as legal officers - this was not confined to the CIC).

This debate is getting tiresome folks.  CIC officers are members of the CF and must be accorded all the respect due to them based on their rank in accordance with the regulations and customs of the service.  Whether or not they should be commissioned or even members of the CF is an entirely different question.  The decision on this, however, was made a long time ago.  The fact is, they are CF members and they are officers - deal with it.

Dogger1936:  I hear you; however, the issue in your case is that you've been stuck with what sounds like an exceptionally bad officer in charge of your unit.  This is not unique to any component of the CF.  There are bad officers (and petty officers and privates, etc) in the PRes and Reg Force too.  You just have to deal with them as you would anyone else.  Whether they're Regular, Reserve, CIC is irrelevant.  They're just bad.  You may have to address this by reporting the situation up the chain of command, but get your ducks in a row and be sure of your facts and all the relevant regulations and be prepared for an uphill fight.  BUT claiming that CIC officers cannot or should not lead Regular or Reserve Force personnel is a losing argument that will kill you before you even get out of the gate.
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Offline Northalbertan

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #86 on: December 17, 2011, 12:40:29 »
Pusser, well said.  I agree 100%.  I can however sympathize with Dodger's predicament and wish I had a better solution to the one you offered up.  I can understand the frustration and where the anger comes from.

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Offline dogger1936

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #87 on: December 17, 2011, 15:16:14 »
Pusser, well said.  I agree 100%.  I can however sympathize with Dodger's predicament and wish I had a better solution to the one you offered up.  I can understand the frustration and where the anger comes from.

Northalbertan

Thanks brother.

I came here to help as much as I can. Unfortunately it's being prevented due to ego's. It's all about the youth. Most CIC I've met have been fantastic people; friends I know I will have for life. Career CIC with ego's are the biggest problem the cadet movement faces.

And yes I agree Pusser. Thanks.

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #88 on: December 18, 2011, 01:56:38 »
Thanks brother.

I came here to help as much as I can. Unfortunately it's being prevented due to ego's. It's all about the youth. Most CIC I've met have been fantastic people; friends I know I will have for life. Career CIC with ego's are the biggest problem the cadet movement faces.

And yes I agree Pusser. Thanks.

And before someone tries to drop in a comment about PRes and Regs having the same issues: we know. This is talk about CIC, nothing more. Check your ego at the door.

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Offline Snakedoc

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #89 on: December 18, 2011, 03:50:32 »
This debate is getting tiresome folks.  CIC officers are members of the CF and must be accorded all the respect due to them based on their rank in accordance with the regulations and customs of the service.  Whether or not they should be commissioned or even members of the CF is an entirely different question.  The decision on this, however, was made a long time ago.  The fact is, they are CF members and they are officers - deal with it.

Great post Pusser, this is basically the point I was trying to get across previously

Offline Pugsley

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #90 on: December 18, 2011, 13:10:55 »
So with Pussers post, can we put this topic to bed?

Offline Get Nautical

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #91 on: April 03, 2012, 10:48:56 »
Believe me I would love to have the "child soldiers" we once had. IE children firing FN all the time firing howitzers as they did a decade or so ago. Fact is Max that isnt going to happen.

The program is so politically correct that it has removed the rank Private/soldat as it may offend someone; or made cadets sound like child soldiers. Waivers etc are not the exception its the norm to do Anything in the program.

I'd gladly have children doing section attacks; alas the program has moved away from the CF over the past few years IRT implimenting of new courses etc.

Russ I'm glad to hear everything was approved. And I'm excited to hear such a great raport being built between you and a regiment. Thats a awesome help for your corp. BZ.

Really, Cadets with 1 chevron are no longer privates, that's sarcasm right.

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #92 on: April 03, 2012, 10:59:13 »
Bud, did you really have to wait 6 months to kick that beehive over and get this rolling again?
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Offline Get Nautical

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #93 on: April 03, 2012, 11:10:35 »
Bud, did you really have to wait 6 months to kick that beehive over and get this rolling again?

Sorry, I didn't know that it was actually true.

Offline Pusser

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #94 on: April 03, 2012, 12:38:35 »
Really, Cadets with 1 chevron are no longer privates, that's sarcasm right.

I know this is an old thread, but since GN has revived it, I just have to weigh in.

The Army Cadets no longer use the rank of "private" because the French equivalent is "soldat" and we want to stay awar from the concept of "child soldiers."  However, my son is an Army Cadet and has just been promoted from "cadet" to "gunner" (his corps is affiliated with the Artillery).  I find it really odd that "private/soldat" is not allowed, but "gunner" is OK?  Then of course we move on to "bombardier" and "master bombardier."  It makes one wonder.... :facepalm:
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Offline quadrapiper

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #95 on: April 03, 2012, 13:07:53 »
It was a change to the generic ranks list, to keep la belle province happy. If memory serves, there's an "out" in the regulations allowing anglophone army cadet units affiliated with an army unit that uses "private" to carry on using that title, on the same grounds as gunner, sapper, etc. 

Offline dogger1936

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Re: BFT for CIC Officers.
« Reply #96 on: April 03, 2012, 15:36:00 »
Try getting approval for things like paintball. The kids can go home and play shoot em up games; but to get approval for them to go outside and participate in paintball...no way. I attempted everything to get approval for one of my corps to have a fun day activity out; something THEY (CIC and cadets) we're really looking forward to.

Requests for approval from training was met with " Well submit a review to us and we will decide and discuss". Fact is most things related to the "Army" is very taboo and verboten.

After writing the review and displaying the positive aspects and safety involved; it was denied due to "optics". And the possibility of lower body injuries assioated with uneven ground. 

The only cadet corps I've seen who are doing well with good numbers and kids who are enjoying the program has been at corps who "skirt" the program. Frankly doing their own thing. And I quite happily looked the other way during my visits; as aside from these FEW corps where the local CIC are doing their own thing the youth are not staying. These people are usually lauded at the cadet det; yet they are parading 100 youth in rural areas. Instead of looking into WHY these corps are doing so well the det's focus all their attention on attacking these fine people for not following the program.

The new army cadet program developed is hated by most for good reason. It is so far beyond the army aspect; it clearly shows who took part in it's making. Millions spent without the thought for equipment needed in rural areas to even remotely follow the program to the programs direction. Equipment required is denied as it will be "in the system" soon. Cadets are out in garbage bags for rain jackets during winter FTX's; this was a huge issue I wanted to sort out. Submitting reports on the use of LSA funds with upkeep required to at least keep kids in rain gear. No one cared enough to address the issue.

Infact one of the biggest problems I found in the program was the inability to address problems without huge reviews and political speak that always resulted in nothing.

Try telling people at the det that kids should be parading in combats and they should scrap the cadet dress uniform. The way I looked at it I would prefer kids have a uniform they could wear in the "field" AND on the pde square. Why have a single use uniform when we could have poor kids dressed the same as their gortex wearing friends who were rich? Why were some kids kitted with gortex and some in black garbage bags? Is that fair?

I even went as far as GETTING OD combats to outfit a few corps who were doing a lot of activities in the field. Discussing with their CIC they were thrilled and we came up with a plan for funds for upkeep. Having a field uniform for these few corps was a thrill for me. Poor kids dressed the same as rich kids; equals. Instead this was shut down by the cadet det.

CIC out in the field wearing full combats while kids shivered in 2 dollar sneakers and black garbage bags on a rainy October weekend. One kid was quickly given my jacket during my visit; I could bear to see it.

Anyway a bit of ranting from what I seen as a ACA in my region.