Author Topic: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]  (Read 619471 times)

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Offline Tank Troll

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #75 on: December 12, 2011, 10:31:39 »
I've had students electronic devices go off while I was teaching lectures. Once while doing driver training one of them actually pulled their phone out and answer it. I have heard them going off during inspections. I've come in after lights out to find half a dozen glows coming from bunk spaces.  All of this with a limited electronic policy in effect.
 This is a process to get them to stop being individuals and part of a team. When we went to Cornwallis (the old place for basic before the Mega) we had our civvies, magazines and books locked up so we would only wear our issued kit and have no distraction to help assimilate us into a team. Having individuals constantly updating status, texting, doing what ever it is that they spend hours a day doing is a distration and is detrimental to their learning process. My kids were physical sick when they found out there was no TV, Internet, or Cell coverage at the cottage we rented last Summer, so too say that they aren't addicted or they don't need there devices, well we all know that it just isn't true.
 So like safety rules policies get put in place because of others actions.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 10:37:00 by Tank Troll »
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aesop081

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #76 on: December 12, 2011, 10:37:13 »
When we went to Cornwallis (the old place for basic before the Mega)

Point of note, basic training in St-Jean pre-dates the megaplex and was going on at the same time as basic in Cornwallis. Only anglophone candidates had to change training location.

Offline ARMY_101

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #77 on: December 12, 2011, 10:37:33 »
When a policy such as this changes we usually have two sides:

THE SKY IS FALLING crowd - those that think the overall effectiveness of the CF is totally compromised over some electronic devices that recruits are allowed during BMQ.

Then we have the other side that thinks its fine and unlimited use is OK no matter what standard the recruit accomplishes.

Have you ever thought we have policies in place to deal with this? IF Recruit Bloggins has not completed his/her tasks as ordered by his Section commander due to his /her excessive time on line.....he/she can be charged or counselled, correct? So what's wrong with the recruits keeping cell phones/electronics provided they get their jobs done to the standard expected?

Its the 21st Century, troops.  I don't see the issue here.

Well put.  This policy in no way cancels out the existing mechanisms in place to deal with unacceptable behaviour.

Offline 1984

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #78 on: December 12, 2011, 11:15:50 »
Well put.  This policy in no way cancels out the existing mechanisms in place to deal with unacceptable behaviour.

Nope not at all.  It just creates MORE "unacceptable behaviour".

Offline Tank Troll

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #79 on: December 12, 2011, 11:20:34 »
Point of note, basic training in St-Jean pre-dates the megaplex and was going on at the same time as basic in Cornwallis. Only anglophone candidates had to change training location.

Hence the term we meaning us anglaphones
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Offline estoguy

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #80 on: December 12, 2011, 12:23:26 »
I read this thread with interest, as I'm still in the application process.  I can see both sides to the argument.  Personally, I agree with the old rules and was fully prepared for it.  Friends who know that I'm in the process have been told that if I do get accepted, contact with me will be seriously curtailed.

My mindset is that even if it is still allowed if/when I'd be doing Basic, I plan on keeping it to a bare minimum.  I think it would be a good challenge for platoons to agree NOT to use their devices for a set period of time and later to limit their use - could be a good team builder.  I'm there do to a job and do the best I can.  Its going to be one of the biggest challenges of my life, and I don't need the distraction.  And I know I can detach myself from my devices.

I do agree with the view of many that this could be a detriment to the training process.  I know my friends and devices will still be there at the conclusion of training.  To me, the military is a serious business and if someone can't detach from their devices/Internet, that the military may not be the best choice of profession. 
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Offline 2010newbie

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #81 on: December 12, 2011, 13:33:44 »
Well put.  This policy in no way cancels out the existing mechanisms in place to deal with unacceptable behaviour.

Yes, but it seems those mechanisms aren't as effective either. On our platoon we were allowed cell phones during the week after the training day and all other electronics on the weekend. One member of our platoon would spend his whole weekend watching movies in his room and never completed his tasks. He received numerous counsellings and swipes, had multiple PO failures, and failed all three attempts at his final "Vimy" exercise. At his PRB, the platoon staff suggestions regarding releasing from the military or taking the NCM route were overturned and last I heard he is being recoursed for BMOQ next summer.

There were a few people in our platoon that I felt should not have passed BMOQ and it seemed as though the staff didn't have a choice but to pass them.

Offline ArmyVern

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #82 on: December 12, 2011, 13:45:40 »
The instructors at BMQ are being put to task for taking such aggressive postures as putting their hands on their hips, or crossing their arms because they might intimidate the troops, and on the other end I'm getting harassment complaints because the Sergeants are "mean" (read: have expectations that the troops will listen and respond appropriately to direction).

...

Passing on the sorting out to some other entity down the line; nice.

... Seriously, WTF!? If today's recruits can not handle hands on hips or arms crossed because it's intimidating, here's a pic of the real world outside of BMQ for them --- taken in pretty cushy circumstances. It's a double-whammy: arms crossed and my hands are on my hips. I can feel the PTSD claims coming in now ... sigh.

 ::)



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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #83 on: December 12, 2011, 13:57:07 »
...

Passing on the sorting out to some other entity down the line; nice.


Yup, thats all it ends up being. All in the name of reducing VRs.

That being allowed their gadgets changed the rate of VRs should be seen as an indication that our selection process is letting us down.

Offline CountDC

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #84 on: December 12, 2011, 14:15:11 »
reading through the thread all I kept coming up with was - sigh, another posting choice gone.

Back around 89/90 while instructing on a driver course I had the pleasure of visiting good old Aldershot for a weekend at the same time a reserve unit was running a basic.  For some reason it was decided that our staff and their candidates would be in one side of the h-hut while our candidates were in the other side.  Made it a bit interesting the first morning.  All the staff knew their course Sgt and what he was like so took great pleasure in hiding out of sight while they went through inspection......then we heard it and were shocked.  Not only was he being questioned by a recruit but in a tone that would normally resulted in him shoving his boot in a very uncomfortable spot prior to eating her alive.  This time nothing but a quite response like a whipped puppy.  Of course we jumped him after to find out what was up with it.  Turned out that they had been read the riot act - treat the recruits with kid gloves, no yelling, no tearing strips, they would all pass or the staff would pay.  These kids had it easier than our pte/cpls and even the Lt on the course.  End result?  That unit had many problems after and lost a good Sgt instructor who refused to do any after that.

What does this have to do with the current situation?  Perhaps nothing at all.  or perhaps it is that they should consider the over all out come of policy changes.  Is this another policy that is going to make people want to avoid school postings as just being too much of a headache?

I know it is a concern for me as I see less and less of the hardline at basic and at CFSAL.  Ever have a private inform you that they don't get paid enough to take crap and don't have to take crap?  How about the oops we screwed up but it is your fault?  My fav is:"look I did it when you asked" while showing a print screen that clearly shows it had just been done not the month prior when asked. I see more problem children passing through the training system to the units to deal with.  As mentioned by others this shouldn't be happening.

Yes we have done some great things in the last decade but perhaps that is because the units have picked up the slack from the schools and created the soldiers the school should have.

Don't change policies to pamper the weak.  For those instructing at the schools my sympathy.  I will predict you will have more and more problems with recruits tied to their devices.  There is a reason schools are now banning them. 

enough rambling.  Cheers.
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Offline Tank Troll

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #85 on: December 12, 2011, 14:37:54 »
This is the results of being catered to all their lives. They whined and they got. The "Entitlement generation" is about to enter full force in the work place and the Canadian Forces, and we are still catering to them. This all started about 15 to 20 years ago in schools when teachers weren't allowed to punish the students any more or fail them for not passing the required courses.
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Offline SentryMAn

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #86 on: December 12, 2011, 14:43:09 »
My favorite punishment for breaking the rule woudl have to have been.

EVERYONE in the pushup position but Mr. XXXX
We will all continue to do push-ups until Mr. XXXX is finished...what ever it is that they were doing wrong.

The next generation is going to take a lot of spoon feeding, the complete mentality they have will be interesting to witness in theater of war.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #87 on: December 12, 2011, 14:48:53 »
Its nice out here in the Prairies. When we run BMQs, they are usually in Minto Armouries or they are quartered on 17 Wing . No internet that they can log on to in either place. I'm not sure about the policy on cell phones.
We can still, with justification, counsel those who err and we attempt to place them on the paths of righteousness.

I'm not being sarcastic, but we in the Reserves, especially in the Prairies, don't always take our lead from CFLRS when it comes to BMQ.

Sometimes the Reg Force (which I was a part of for 24.5 years, and three of that in CFRS Cornwallis) gets it all wrong.
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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #88 on: December 12, 2011, 14:54:12 »
...

Passing on the sorting out to some other entity down the line; nice.

... Seriously, WTF!? If today's recruits can not handle hands on hips or arms crossed because it's intimidating, here's a pic of the real world outside of BMQ for them --- taken in pretty cushy circumstances. It's a double-whammy: arms crossed and my hands are on my hips. I can feel the PTSD claims coming in now ... sigh.

 ::)

...and the kids in the recruit training don't have to worry about the loaded pistols you dudes/ette were wearing either  ::).

I said it once somewhere else - part of Recruit training is to learn to deal with deprivation...here's an idea, why not put cell phone jammers all over CFLRS, so that you can only use the phones in certain areas, that you have to EARN your way into.  Keep your phones sure, if you need that blankie, but you won't be able to use it.   >:D 

 :2c:

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MM

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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #89 on: December 12, 2011, 15:02:54 »
...and the kids in the recruit training don't have to worry about the loaded pistols you dudes/ette were wearing either  ::).

...

Well, apparently they don't have to worry about NDs any more either in the land of BMQ where they now allegedly come free-of-charge if occuring in a clearing bay, but may cost someone their life. BMQ/BOTP is the time to get comfortable with them and their handling. That's the "B" in BASIC dammit. The BASIC soldiering crap that will save your life and others. Me thinks someone's forgetting all that these days.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 15:09:33 by ArmyVern »
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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #90 on: December 12, 2011, 17:29:30 »
Vern

Sadly it isn't an apparently that is a fact. No more charge for ND's in a clearing bay it is a PO failure and a counseling
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Offline jasonf6

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #91 on: December 12, 2011, 18:13:13 »
Yup, thats all it ends up being. All in the name of reducing VRs.

That being allowed their gadgets changed the rate of VRs should be seen as an indication that our selection process is letting us down.
Couldn't agree more. 

I know I come from a time when this didn't matter; being that in '94 we didn't have cellphones, laptops or the interwebs (much), but I've said it before that if you can't go 13-weeks and trades without checking facebook and texting your mom/gf/spouse/significant other then the military might not be for you. 

Offline Tarlouth

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #92 on: December 12, 2011, 18:36:14 »
Troops overseas have been able to buy and use civvie cell phones for quite some time and nothing of the sort has happened yet. 

your very bold statement WRT cell phones (and other portable electronic devices) never leading to an ambush is information I highly doubt you are privy to.  Trust me, if something like that ever happened... you will never hear about it. Other than a random reiteration of acceptable use policy.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #93 on: December 12, 2011, 19:55:05 »
your very bold statement WRT cell phones (and other portable electronic devices) never leading to an ambush is information I highly doubt you are privy to.  Trust me, if something like that ever happened... you will never hear about it. Other than a random reiteration of acceptable use policy.

And you are privy to that kind of information?
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #94 on: December 12, 2011, 20:08:17 »
And you are privy to that kind of information?

Looking at his profile - probably.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #95 on: December 12, 2011, 20:11:10 »
Looking at his profile - probably.

I looked  as well.
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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #96 on: December 12, 2011, 20:44:30 »
Vern

Sadly it isn't an apparently that is a fact. No more charge for ND's in a clearing bay it is a PO failure and a counseling

The way I read is that instead of taking a "disciplinary" action, i.e. a charge  followed by punishment, the school is proceeding with an "administrative" action where shortcomings will be explain and corrective training will take place to ensure the mistake is not made again.  Hopefully more than 1 PO failure (of any type, not just weapons handling) on a course will result in the candidate being put on a PRB and  recoursed.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #97 on: December 12, 2011, 20:49:30 »
I spoke with a little birdy.

The 66% greater retention rate (sounds like a big number) turned out to apparently equal 2 troops.
The platoon involved in it was the "warrior platoon".   Electronics were taken away from a platoon of newbies who just started basic training. The platoon of warriors were allowed to keep their electronics, some of whom have been kicking around the system for a year +.
Some people when told they were loosing their electronics, quit. (Are those the kinda soldiers we want defending Canada?)

In the end the 'do everything possible to keep these recruits in the CF' turned out to see less VRs....but more training failures. The ones who didn't belong and wanted to quit but were coerced into staying ended up passing recruit school  but failing their trades course, quitting down the road or punted out for discipline and administrative issues.

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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #98 on: December 12, 2011, 20:57:48 »
The way I read is that instead of taking a "disciplinary" action, i.e. a charge  followed by punishment, the school is proceeding with an "administrative" action where shortcomings will be explain and corrective training will take place to ensure the mistake is not made again.  Hopefully more than 1 PO failure (of any type, not just weapons handling) on a course will result in the candidate being put on a PRB and  recoursed.

A PO failure and an Initial Counselling? Or just a nice little chit chat counselling session with staff??

Only an Initial Counselling that is placed on the members file is a form of official administrative sanction (followed up by RW, then C&P). A chit chat certainly doesn't qualify on this front.

Oh, and official administrative action NEVER precludes the application of official disciplinary actions. It's an ND for cripes sake - they KILL people - ~ not a damn "you have a dust bunny on your uniform".
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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #99 on: December 12, 2011, 21:39:44 »
Fundamentally, the problem is that we measure the wrong things at CFLRS.  "Passing BMQ" and "Passing BMOQ" are useless stats.  Any CO can tweak conditions (and get Leading Change points oin their PER) and make it easier to graduate.

We should be measuring successful achievement of the Fuctional Operational Point - where pers are qualified and employable.  Anyone who fails before that point and leaves is a failure for the recruiting system and a failure for CFLRS.

As long as CFLRS only cares about BMQ/BMOQ grads, there are perverse incentives in the system.
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