Author Topic: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]  (Read 622778 times)

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Offline RDJP

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #350 on: July 27, 2012, 01:05:42 »

Offline Tank Troll

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #351 on: July 30, 2012, 17:43:04 »
So you trained them well?  ;D

Or put the fear of god into them either way it worked ;D
I know the voices in my head are not real...............but Damn they have some good ideas

Cpl_lou

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #352 on: September 08, 2012, 11:00:21 »
We were not allowed electronics throughout the week and it made life very difficult. As a mother of 5, with a husband who works shift work and kids involved in all kinds of activities (and some away at University and in the Military, themselves); it was impossible to call home from a pay phone and actually contact them within the hours that we were allotted to do so. I went weeks without talking to my kids and even longer without talking to my husband. This did some damage to our family life for awhile. I can see how married recruits with children would have difficulty living without their phones for 3 months. Family dynamics have changed drastically throughout the past 20+ years; so have the recruits. You now have people like me - mothers with 5 children coming from a blended family with complicated dynamics - joining later in life. Not all families can live without their mother's/father's that long without issue. Especially single parents, or parents from blended families. Furthermore, not all recruits are young, single teens anymore. I see that the face of the military is changing, and I think that it's good that some facet of the military training system is changing with it.

Now, I don't believe it is necessary to have laptops and other electronics - I would have never even thought to take a computer with me. I understand how time consuming these things can be. However, recruits should definitely have (limited) access to their phones throughout the course to; call home, do emergency banking, put out fires, contact children's schools, deal with family issues, etc. Limiting the time that they are able to access their phones allows them time to call out or be called, but allows for time to get tasks done, as well. Taking it away completely makes them feel trapped and incompetent and useless to their families.

I'm lucky I had an understanding husband who was (mostly) able to deal with the issues that arose throughout my 3 months at CFLRS. I'm sure there have been many families broken up as a result of the military training system.

Want to keep recruits? Keep them happy and keep their families happy.

Online Hamish Seggie

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #353 on: September 08, 2012, 11:19:09 »
   It never hurts to suffer some deprivation as long as long term health or safety is not affected. Soldiers do not need wireless internet in the field, nor do they require MP3 players or iPods and iPads in the defensive position, or a camcorder on patrol to upload their latest adventures to You Tube, or their cell phone to check in three times a day with 9er Domestic.  While many of our troops possess some of these electronic devices  they are not required when we are deployed on exercise or operations. Their use needs to be monitored IAW common sense use for instance - no listening to your iPod on sentry.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #354 on: September 08, 2012, 11:39:39 »
Want to keep recruits? Keep them happy and keep their families happy.

If a recruits decision to stay in the CF or release is because they can't talk on their Igadget....I'll start filling out their VR form for them.

Times have changed, sure.  Everyone has an IGadget.  That doesn't mean you can use it 24/7.  I can think of a whole bunch of places in the CF people work that you can NOT have a wireless device, in fact you can't even have it ON you, you surrender it upon entering the building.

If a family breaks up because of a recruit not being able to FB and text, etc I'll suggest there were far larger issues at play before the CFLRS restrictions.

Another point, if you are going to join the CF, you MUST accept there are times you will NOT be able to "deal with the school" et al, and CFLRS is the first of those times.  Get used to it.  Having a spouse and kids hardly makes you and your situation unique or special.
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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #355 on: September 08, 2012, 11:54:13 »
I'm lucky I had an understanding husband who was (mostly) able to deal with the issues that arose throughout my 3 months at CFLRS. I'm sure there have been many families broken up as a result of the military training system.

A whole 3 months? Wow, operational deployments of 6,8,9,10,12 months aren't going to be a whole lot easier. You won't have an IPhone there either.

Cpl_lou

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #356 on: September 08, 2012, 12:08:00 »
If a recruits decision to stay in the CF or release is because they can't talk on their Igadget....I'll start filling out their VR form for them.

Times have changed, sure.  Everyone has an IGadget.  That doesn't mean you can use it 24/7.  I can think of a whole bunch of places in the CF people work that you can NOT have a wireless device, in fact you can't even have it ON you, you surrender it upon entering the building.

If a family breaks up because of a recruit not being able to FB and text, etc I'll suggest there were far larger issues at play before the CFLRS restrictions.

Another point, if you are going to join the CF, you MUST accept there are times you will NOT be able to "deal with the school" et al, and CFLRS is the first of those times.  Get used to it.  Having a spouse and kids hardly makes you and your situation unique or special.

When I say times have changed, I mean the recruits are not all young, single, childless males with nothing they can't leave behind for 1.5 years of training anymore. The new face of the military includes peoples mothers and fathers - in some cases, even grandparents. People are joining at all different ages and stages of life with varying responsibilities and varying complexities at home. When I joined, I was given 3 weeks to organize and sort out my life at home before going away for 3 months (which actually led to 14 months and then was posted away from home for another - as yet undetermined number of years). As a mother and wife (and various other roles I played in my life), that is not an easy task. I've heard countless times throughout the past year and a half, "did you not sort that out before you got here?", or "you need to sort that out if you want to succeed here"... please, tell me how it is possible to "sort out" family issues that arise with either no comms or limited comms home.

You know, I joined this forum to connect with 'like-minded' people who were all a part of the same 'family' and voice my opinion on matters relating to our jobs; and after perusing the site a bit, all I have seen is these so-called 'like-minded' people attack one another for their opinions. I joined the CF because I have a long history of family who have served, have died or been injured serving our country so, that we can be free to voice our opinions.

aesop081

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #357 on: September 08, 2012, 14:14:59 »
We were not allowed electronics throughout the week and it made life very difficult. As a mother of 5, with a husband who works shift work and kids involved in all kinds of activities (and some away at University and in the Military, themselves); it was impossible to call home from a pay phone and actually contact them within the hours that we were allotted to do so. I went weeks without talking to my kids and even longer without talking to my husband. This did some damage to our family life for awhile.

Life deployed is going to be a serious shock to your family then.

When I say times have changed, I mean the recruits are not all young, single, childless males with nothing they can't leave behind for 1.5 years of training anymore. The new face of the military includes peoples mothers and fathers - in some cases, even grandparents.

Recruiting demographics may have changed but reality has not, and will not, change.

Quote
You know, I joined this forum to connect with 'like-minded' people who were all a part of the same 'family' and voice my opinion on matters relating to our jobs;

"like-minded" does not mean we all agree. If you are looking for a group hug and people to always tell you how wonderful your opinions are, i am sure there are other forums for that.

aesop081

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #358 on: September 08, 2012, 14:19:46 »
I was given 3 weeks to organize and sort out my life at home before going away for 3 months

Luxury. I got 3 hours notice for OP MOBILE. I'm a single parent. Your problem was what ?

Quote
please, tell me how it is possible to "sort out" family issues that arise with either no comms or limited comms home

You had better learn how to deal with that. Limited comms is usually the best you are going to get.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 14:36:48 by CDN Aviator »

Cpl_lou

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #359 on: September 08, 2012, 14:41:19 »
Life deployed is going to be a serious shock to your family then.

Life deployed as in overseas? Or life deployed as in away from family for years at a time? Because I've already been gone for well over a year and a half and don't foresee being home with them again for at least 2-4 years.

In response to your other replies... I have seen the devastating results of the old school line of thinking in my job. I've dealt with a lot of really damaged people already in my short time in.  I understand the attitude when it relates to in-theatre ops, but is it really necessary when in garrison?

You're speaking to me as though I know nothing of the military simply because I commented on my difficulties throughout BMQ with family issues arising. The decision was made to allow recruits to utilize their cells throughout BMQ by higher for a reason. Perhaps mine, was not a unique story?

And no thanks to the group hug...

aesop081

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #360 on: September 08, 2012, 14:45:54 »
Life deployed as in overseas?

Yes, overseas. Where internet and telephones are rare things that often do not exist.

Quote
I understand the attitude when it relates to in-theatre ops, but is it really necessary when in garrison?

In garrison, comms are hardly limited. BMQ is not "garrison". It is an introduction to the realities of military life. If one cannot live with limited comms for 3 months...........

Quote
And no thanks to the group hug...

Then quit complaining about the responses you are getting.

Cpl_lou

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #361 on: September 08, 2012, 14:58:55 »
Yes, overseas. Where internet and telephones are rare things that often do not exist.

In garrison, comms are hardly limited. BMQ is not "garrison". It is an introduction to the realities of military life. If one cannot live with limited comms for 3 months...........

Then quit complaining about the responses you are getting.

Disengaging. My reasoning is lost on your rationale.

Offline Scott

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #362 on: September 08, 2012, 15:11:18 »
Yeah, and I am sure you're the only one in step. ::)

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Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone!
Admirable, but I would suggest that if you find yourself alone that you might want to examine your side of the argument for flaws :nod:

If you cannot participate in a debate without crying that you've been attacked then feel free to keep disengaged.

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aesop081

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #363 on: September 08, 2012, 15:24:07 »
Disengaging. My reasoning is lost on your rationale.

That's ok. I'm fairly comfortable that my rationale is well grounded in 20 years of living with reality.

Cpl_lou

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #364 on: September 08, 2012, 15:38:46 »
Yeah, and I am sure you're the only one in step. ::)
Admirable, but I would suggest that if you find yourself alone that you might want to examine your side of the argument for flaws :nod:

If you cannot participate in a debate without crying that you've been attacked then feel free to keep disengaged.

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Okay... All I was trying to say is that I support the decision within reasonable limits to allow recruits the use of their cell phones at the end of duties for a limited amount of time. Not all families can lose their mother/father for that long without issues arising. The military as a noble institution with so many noble and incredibly brave souls; however, there are a lot of things that could be fixed in order to help retain the good members. First thing is change with the changing needs of members and their families. The cell phone issue is simply one small portion of that.

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #365 on: September 08, 2012, 15:45:47 »
Maybe you could have put it this way to begin with...?

I am sorry, but we are not going to agree. If you have such a bad family dynamic that a cell phone is all that stands between happiness and a meltdown then I suggest something a little extra than what an iPhone and a data plan from Rogers can provide. I do not feel much in the way of sympathy, either. Plenty of us have been down this road, plenty of us continue down it as you speak, most without a shred of complaint.

Your situation is not unique.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #366 on: September 08, 2012, 16:00:08 »
When I say times have changed, I mean the recruits are not all young, single, childless males with nothing they can't leave behind for 1.5 years of training anymore. The new face of the military includes peoples mothers and fathers - in some cases, even grandparents. People are joining at all different ages and stages of life with varying responsibilities and varying complexities at home.

And what exactly is it about this you think is "new"?  I joined in '89, and we had enough females in our platoon that they got 1/4 of the living space in our double story H-hut.  Your opinion is based on flawed information and I don't agree with this 'new face of the military' stuff either; what new face?  Are you suggesting that the people who served before were all young, single males?  My father would disagree, and he retired when I was 11.

I don't need to go any further than that, so I won't.

Quote
When I joined, I was given 3 weeks to organize and sort out my life at home before going away for 3 months (which actually led to 14 months and then was posted away from home for another - as yet undetermined number of years).

Right. Let's not forget to ADD some facts here to paint a better picture of reality.  You volunteered, applied and knew if you were accepted, you'd be leaving.  Trying to make it look like you only had 3 weeks because of the doings of the CF only tells me you applied and then didn't prepare for the reality of a successful application.  THAT is not the result of anything related to the CF.

Quote
As a mother and wife (and various other roles I played in my life), that is not an easy task. I've heard countless times throughout the past year and a half, "did you not sort that out before you got here?", or "you need to sort that out if you want to succeed here"... please, tell me how it is possible to "sort out" family issues that arise with either no comms or limited comms home.

Again, not unique in any way is the concept of being away.  You chose to apply, you accepted and with accepting a life in the CF, this is part of the reality sometimes.  Not just for you, for everyone.  The solution to the problem though, is not 'access to electronics during BMQ".  Maybe you need to learn to let the husband at home deal with things, that what I do when I am away and my wife lets me know when she needs my input.

Quote
You know, I joined this forum to connect with 'like-minded' people who were all a part of the same 'family' and voice my opinion on matters relating to our jobs; and after perusing the site a bit, all I have seen is these so-called 'like-minded' people attack one another for their opinions. I joined the CF because I have a long history of family who have served, have died or been injured serving our country so, that we can be free to voice our opinions.

Thats a myopic view of the site, perhaps you neeed to poke around some more.  Just because you are free to have an opinion doesn't mean I or anyone else is obliged to agree with it.

Serving means being away, everyone joins knowing that.  In essenece, you are complaining about the realities of your own decisions. 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 16:38:10 by Eye In The Sky »
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Cpl_lou

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #367 on: September 08, 2012, 16:01:01 »
Maybe you could have put it this way to begin with...?

I am sorry, but we are not going to agree. If you have such a bad family dynamic that a cell phone is all that stands between happiness and a meltdown then I suggest something a little extra than what an iPhone and a data plan from Rogers can provide. I do not feel much in the way of sympathy, either. Plenty of us have been down this road, plenty of us continue down it as you speak, most without a shred of complaint.

Your situation is not unique.

Didn't expect anyone to agree. Just putting my opinion out there like everyone else. I don't think my situation is unique, either. There are many people in the same position as me - which is why I think the CF is changing (just not fast enough) - I certainly didn't suggest they change for one person in my situation... but all the others in the same situation. I just have a bit of a problem with the old attitude of "suck it up" and "go without" when not in a life-threatening situation. You are/were a fire fighter?? So you understand completely the detox needed after a difficult call. There are times and places for deprivation and times and places for regrouping/detoxing/re-connecting and healing. Too much/constant deprivation can be devastating to some. I have seen the results of which both in my family and friends (military members/emergency service workers, etc.) and in many of the soldiers I've dealt with in my short time in the military. It's sad... and if you want to give me that group hug now... I'll take it now! :)

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #368 on: September 08, 2012, 16:06:34 »
Life deployed as in overseas? Or life deployed as in away from family for years at a time? Because I've already been gone for well over a year and a half and don't foresee being home with them again for at least 2-4 years.

This must be because of personal or family decisions and NOT related to CF policy; I am very familiar, as are many others, with the CF policy on posting, careeer status CFIRP moves, etc. 

Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Cpl_lou

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #369 on: September 08, 2012, 16:11:20 »
This must be because of personal or family decisions and NOT related to CF policy; I am very familiar, as are many others, with the CF policy on posting, careeer status CFIRP moves, etc.

Yes, I was away for training for 14 months and then posted away from my family. Family couldn't move because of custody/access and other Gov't job.

Cpl_lou

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #370 on: September 08, 2012, 16:15:20 »
This must be because of personal or family decisions and NOT related to CF policy; I am very familiar, as are many others, with the CF policy on posting, careeer status CFIRP moves, etc.

Are you well versed in IR/Sep expenses, etc.? I'm in need of some advice on that front.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline Scott

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #372 on: September 08, 2012, 16:18:16 »
Didn't expect anyone to agree. Just putting my opinion out there like everyone else. I don't think my situation is unique, either. There are many people in the same position as me - which is why I think the CF is changing (just not fast enough) - I certainly didn't suggest they change for one person in my situation... but all the others in the same situation. I just have a bit of a problem with the old attitude of "suck it up" and "go without" when not in a life-threatening situation. You are/were a fire fighter?? So you understand completely the detox needed after a difficult call. There are times and places for deprivation and times and places for regrouping/detoxing/re-connecting and healing. Too much/constant deprivation can be devastating to some. I have seen the results of which both in my family and friends (military members/emergency service workers, etc.) and in many of the soldiers I've dealt with in my short time in the military. It's sad... and if you want to give me that group hug now... I'll take it now! :)

If you're going to reference one of the hats I wear then feel free to educate yourself on the subject before trying to use it to bolster your argument, hmmkay?

As a firefighter I would be VERY concerned if someone could not cope with the basic stressors of life during something as regimented and as safe as training. Junior's got a runny nose and so you failed inspection? Big red flag. Methinks that what some of the lads here, a few of them former CFLRS instructors, BTW, have been saying all along.

Of course I understand the basic need to decompress after a rough call. I also have the experience of getting ready to go and be by myself for a moment when the goddamned gong rings and I have to suck it up and go again, hug needed or not. As someone who has lived it, I am saying that you're better off "suffering" a little during training than once you get into the field. Simples.
Be nice for no reason.


Cpl_lou

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #374 on: September 08, 2012, 16:20:38 »
If you're going to reference one of the hats I wear then feel free to educate yourself on the subject before trying to use it to bolster your argument, hmmkay?

As a firefighter I would be VERY concerned if someone could not cope with the basic stressors of life during something as regimented and as safe as training. Junior's got a runny nose and so you failed inspection? Big red flag. Methinks that what some of the lads here, a few of them former CFLRS instructors, BTW, have been saying all along.

Of course I understand the basic need to decompress after a rough call. I also have the experience of getting ready to go and be by myself for a moment when the goddamned gong rings and I have to suck it up and go again, hug needed or not. As someone who has lived it, I am saying that you're better off "suffering" a little during training than once you get into the field. Simples.

Wasn't arguing with you and I have well over 20 years of relevant experience outside of the military myself. I also have friends and family who have done that and other similar jobs. I'm not whining. I was attempting a joke about the hug.